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POPPY FASCISM….

By ATWadmin On November 10th, 2006

poppy.jpgCan I say that I am fully behind Channel 4 journalist Jon Snow for his decision NOT to wear a poppy on air.

The uberliberal pro-Palestinian pro Sinn Fein/IRA broadcaster claims that he..

"…begged to wear an Aids ribbon, a breast cancer ribbon, a Marie Curie flower … You name it, from the Red Cross to the RNIB, they send me stuff to wear to raise awareness, and I don’t. And in those terms, and those terms alone, I do not and will not wear a poppy … Additionally there is a rather unpleasant breed of poppy fascism out there – ‘he damned well must wear a poppy!’."

 

Why do I support him? Well, two main reasons..

1. It shows the utter moral confusion hat lies at the heart of liberal broadcasting. Snow imagines that he is fighting "Poppy fascism" even as Islamic fascists seek to destroy our civilisation. Snow cannot identify with the latter concept and it’s helpful for people to see this manifest.

2. Snow should have a choice not to wear his Poppy on air. He has a right to disrespect those who gave their lives that he might behave like a moonbat. We all have a choice not to watch this loathsome creep. I’ll be exercising it!

Snow is that risible of creatures – a journalist who thinks highly of himself.

67 Responses to “POPPY FASCISM….”

  1. As an Irish republican I have no particular affinity with the poppy and people should be free to wear it or not wear it.

    But Snow is diminished by this decision. It seems immature given the issues society now faces. Britain should remember those who died so the likes of Snow could make his choice. Now more than ever when writers and cartoonists are having they freedom attacked.

  2. Jon Snow;

    "there is a rather unpleasant breed of poppy fascism out there"

    David Vance;

    "He has a right to disrespect those who gave their lives that he might behave like a moonbat."

    ———————————————–

    from where im standing it looks like you proved his point. the freedom they fought for includes jons right to wear or not wear what he wants. remember that.

    ———————————————–

    apart from all that its worth noting that this is about what he wears on air, and has no bearing on his private life, as his closing remarks suggest;

    "Snow emphasised that his decision had nothing to do with a lack of respect for service veterans. "I respect our armed forces, the sacrifice and the loss, and like others I remember them on Remembrance Sunday. That’s the way it is," he wrote. But he added: "I won’t be wearing a black tie for anyone’s death – I don’t for my own relatives, so why on earth would I for anyone else’s?""

    ————————————————

    i should also like to point out that you have mis-quoted the article:

    "The uberliberal pro-Palestinian pro Sinn Fein/IRA broadcaster claims that he..

    "…begged to wear an Aids ribbon, a breast cancer ribbon, a Marie Curie flower"

    you infer from your language that he begged to wear other symbols on air. when infact he seems to have consistently refused to wear any symbol. he was "begged to wear" not "he begged to wear".

    ——————————————————

    "Snow is that risible of creatures – a journalist who thinks highly of himself." David Vance, Journalist Nov 2006.

  3. John Snow or anyone else should be perfectly at liberty to choose not to wear a poppy and indeed if he does make such a choice no-one should even comment on it. No-one should complain about a tv presenter not wearing a poppy or indeed any other charity symbol. However he should have also said nothing about having made that choice. Having decided to speak out about the issue he makes himself fair game for criticism.

  4. he is responding to criticism. he has every right to defend his position. although its probably not helping when people mis-quote his actions or intentions.

  5. daytripper

    If he chooses to wear a poppy then he should wear it as he chooses and not make a pronouncement about when he will or will not wear it. If he chooses not to wear a poppy at all that is fine but nothing should be said about itby him or anyone else.. No-one should question anyone elses wearing or non wearing of a poppy and if they do pose such questions they should not be given a response.

  6. ‘As an Irish republican I have no particular affinity with the poppy…’.

    Yeah, decency on the one hand, and Irish republicanism on the other, are mutually exclusive creatures.

  7. Snow has the right to be a moonbat, we have a right to call him a moonbat. At least that’s how it should work, but instead we get Snow et al whining about ‘poppy fascism’. Spare me!

  8. People are entirely free to comment on whether he wears a poppy or not. They are free to question it debate it and demonstrate about if they so choose. lol. The way Jon Snow handles the criticism is a reflection on him so its probably best not to make absurd remarks about ‘poppy fascism’ unless you want to elevate the issue and look an insensitive berk into the bargain.

  9. Well, Andrew’s remark at 10:48AM is a perfect example of the poppy facism Snow was complaining about – one either wears a poppy or one is not a decent person.

    What should be a individual gesture of remembrance of the dead, has become a sacrament where each is looking around, stick in hand, to see who is complying and who not.

    Pathetic!

  10. correct me if im wrong, but didnt the IRA of old request that its voluteers join the 16th Irish Division as a display of solidarity.

  11. -Cunningham – it is not only a personal symbolic choice, it is also the only source of cashflow to war veterans, people who died to you can freely spout how pathetic it is to criticize. Pathetic is the governments stance on this. Pathetic is hearing how poppy sellers are few and far between because they get mugged. Pathetic is hearing Jon Snow insensitively talk about ‘fascism’ when many ww2 veterans are still alive and experienced the real thing to afford him the right to talk so crassly. It also strikes me that everyone is busily judging and you are just as bad.

  12. Alison, I agree (except the bit about me being just as bad!)
    If I were English, Id also wear a poppy, and probably be out selling them too. It’s no doubt also true that most wearers do so for reasons of remembrance and gratitude for sacrifices made by others. What I was complaining about was the use of this symbolic day as yet another welcome occasion for a spot of leftie bashing. It is quite apparent that attacking the left/liberals has a higher priority in Andrew today than remembering the dead. If someone is passionately in love with Britain, its history, symbols, its army, etc., I have absolutely nothing against that; in fact I’d admire it. What I do not admire is the pure lack of love and surfeit of hatred among right-wingers that seems to motivate almost all of their opinions and utterances.

    By the way, what you say about the sole income of veterans is very surprising (and very disgusting if true).
    But can it really be true that British veterans of WWII don’t even get a pension?

  13. Alison

    There is nothing to judge. John snow should not have said the silly comments about ‘fascism’ but equally people who criticised him for not wearing a poppy are wrong. Of course people are free to comment or question it but they shouldn’t. The poppy tradition is an excellent and honourable way of remembering our war dead and the comments you make about the poor treatment of veterans and their dependents by the govt are spot on but it remains the case that no-one should be expected to have to justify why they are not wearing a poppy.

  14. What nationality are you then out of curiosity? There was me thinking allied forces fought for everyone’s freedom. not just the english. but thats your choice. Also Andrew is not the only one to comment on this issue at all. Ive read this on many blogs and it was in the papers last night. Jon Snows comment was fatuous and it was he that invoked the political edge to it so it is fair to comment on this. It is equally fair to ask him why he chooses not to wear one. As a journo he is happy to ask enough prying difficult and personal questions when it suits him so tough shit.

  15. There is no equivalent to the Veterans Administration here. I understand from commenters elsewhere it is left to the Legion and Regimental Associations to take care of these men. I know that this is true for costs for specialilst burns surgery and after care for the injured.

  16. Pub Philospoher is also conducting his own research into poppy wearing. He quotes an article by Carol Gould in which she was critical of Yasmin Alibhai Brown for he refusal to wear one. She posts over at PP:

    "It just so happens that in tonight’s ‘Evening Standard’ Yasmin Alibhai Brown says she is now ashamed of having refused to wear a poppy last year and that she has had a year to reflect on her hubris and childish petulance about this British tradition. It is a long and very moving article in which she talks about meeting ehtnic minority war veterans who were appalled that she made a public issue of refusing to wear a poppy"

    The issue has long been politicized.Jon Snow joins a q. I hope people to continue to pick up on it.

    Apparently Jon Snow is getting as hell of lot of flack on his blog for his stupid comments. Good.

    Thank you David for the POPPY-mobile idea. I managed to get it downloaded in the end. Cool. Added to which they’ve jsut sent a timely reminder to my phone ‘that three quarters of the population will stand silent for 2 minutes at 11am Saturday to reflect on the human cost of war. Will you join them?’

  17. "It is equally fair to ask him why he chooses not to wear one."

    he answered and was mis-quoted. whats a man to do?

  18. DV

    Remember a few years back Donna Traynor on BBC NI outright refused to wear a poppy because it was a symbol of "British imperialism"? I still change the channel when she appears.

    If Snow doesn’t want to wear a poppy thats his choice, it is a free country, but a lot of people will lose respect for him. I have to admit I’ve lost a little bit of respect for him. But he does appear consistent in regard to other charities and organisations.

    You should also note that i’ve seen a picture of him on todays "Metro" newspaper here in Newcastle and he was wearing a poppy. But this was a picture of him as Jon Snow private citizen as opposed to Jon Snow journalist.

  19. "It is equally fair to ask him why he chooses not to wear one."

    Only in the same sense that it is equally fair for someone to stop you in the street to ask you why you are not wearing green trousers.

  20. Yeah, decency on the one hand, and Irish republicanism on the other, are mutually exclusive creatures.

    Mc Cann you talk about decency i suggest you wander down to City hall on Sunday where you will see lots of "Decent" men in orange sashes laying wreaths im memory of british service men from the same army that those self same orange men were attacking and trying to kill during the Whiterock parade last year hypocrites one and all.

  21. >>Yeah, decency on the one hand, and Irish republicanism on the other, are mutually exclusive creatures.<<

    Dont confuse the terrorism of one form of Republicanism with Irish republicanism in itself. Are Unionists to be branded as indecent just because some members of their community committed equally savage acts of violence. I hope not.

    On the topic at hand, I think that sometimes its best to swallow your pride when you are likely to offend people with your comments.

  22. ‘he answered and was mis-quoted. whats a man to do?’

    laugh? journos do the same all the time.

    Only in the same sense that it is equally fair for someone to stop you in the street to ask you why you are not wearing green trousers.

    How about the guys who stop me in the street and ask me why i havent thought of joining Amnesty? Who insist on me giving them ‘just 2 minsutes of their time’. Foot soldiers for fascism or people making you think about charity. This is becoming a daft argument Colm. Ill leave you to mull it over. In your green trousers.

  23. Whoa Alison

    I am not saying that poppy sellers shouldn’t approach people in the street to ask if they would like to buy a poppy , not at all. I am only talking about the moral pressure that turns a voluntary event into a near compulsion. Personally i think everyone who lives in the UK should proudly choose to wear the poppy and honour and remember those who died for our freedom but it is wrong to single out those who don’t and demand to know why they aren’t. The argument isn’t daft it is about respecting freedom and rejecting ‘fascism’ however minor.

    I am always suspicious of people who never wear green trousers 😉

  24. I never wear a poppy. In fact I never wear any badge or "flag" that a flagseller presses on me. And yes, some have been known to press literally, cheeky sods 🙂

    When I donate to a charity then that’s my business: between me, the charity, and God. I’m not saying that more people ought to follow my lead, because that might destroy the sense of solidarity that poppy-wearing engenders. It’s simply my private choice and, like Jon Snow’s, should be respected.

  25. "correct me if im wrong, but didnt the IRA of old request that its voluteers join the 16th Irish Division as a display of solidarity"

    You are wrong, the IRA was not even in existance at the start of the first world war.

    The only reason why Redmond encouraged the Irish Volunteers to sign up for the first world war was to try and secure Home Rule.

    Nothing to do with "solidarity"

  26. True, Chris, but he was also hoping that a new feeling of camaraderie and solidarity would be forged between Nationalist and Unionist Ireland if their youth fought side by side. Like all Nationalists at the time (and even many Unionists), he was dismayed by the prospect of a partitioned Ireland and thought that this gesture may help overcome the divisions.

    It was a vain hope of course, regardless of what happened in 1916.

  27. thats what i meant. cheers cunningham.

    i wasnt sure about the IRA bit. thats why i asked, thanks for the clarification chris.

    one thing i do know, is that unionists of old, back home, were the ones who squandered the new hope fostered on the western front. basically your latter day david vances. 😉
    solidarity was found in the trenches, and catholic and protestant found common ground upon which a future may have been formed, very different from the past we now know.

    ireland is made up of many ‘what ifs’ though.

  28. As both my parents served in WWII, I have always been tuned into the importance of the poppy. I very rarely wear charity badges but poppies are different and they relate to a "charity" that is really repaying (inadequately) a debt of gratitude. (As much as I wish cancer sufferers or Alttzheimer sufferers well, I do not own them anything because they are these things.)

    I wear the poppy as a symbol of that gratitude. As a consequence of my plethora of neurological glitches I generally go through many poppies each Remembrance season. They either fall of my jackets or coats or end up looking as if they have been through the washing machine. I have always taken care to display one as I would hate to pass a veteran or war widow on the street, unbeknownst, without.

    The Poppy is about giving money to help support the living and to remember the dead.

    More recent events have added an additional personal significance to the poppy, but its original meaning and importance remains supreme, on principle.

  29. Aileen: Nice comment. My neighbors include a delightful eighty plus year old couple who both served during WW2. They served in both theaters! First Europe, then Asia. The husband landed on Okinenowa (sic) with the Marines and she was in the first group of women to land there as a nurse.

    On the train going into work yesterday I was reading of the samll town of Port Chester, New York which is just outside New York City. On the eight hundred foot long Willow Street in that town were the homes of eight men who died in service during that war. I’ve been on that street many times and had no idea.

    Wouldn’t it be great if we could pay more attention to their stories and less attention to the stories of some bubblehead reader of the news.

  30. There’s some splendid twaddle from Daytripper here ….
    The Catholic servicemen who came back from WW1 were in the main treated as Pariahs by those Catholics who stayed. There was no huge window of opportunity for those who returned to join hands and march into the sunset singing Kumbaya …. Events of Easter 1916 saw to that. So It’s a bit pathetic to try and blame the unionist community for a wasted opportunity when it never existed.
    A fascinating and complex time. One of the main reasons Connolly abandoned his principles and joined the religious right in their indulgent self-sacrifice
    was that he was devastated that his belief that War could never happen because the European Working Classes would never fight each other was shown to be
    a foolish and immature dream. So the pendulum swung and he joined a gang of right wing dreamers.

  31. Good Post Aileen.

    It’s sad that those in the republican camp who DEMAND that we respect their fallen cannot respect people who gave so much for all of us.

  32. MR

    Republicans don’t demand any such thing from you.

    That said let’s not pretend that most Unionists who went off to fight in the first world war did so out of any notion of freedom.

    They did it for their own selfish interests.

  33. Which selfish interest would a farm boy from the depths of rural unionist communities and his equivalent from working class urban communities have been serving by fighting at the Somme ?

    That’s nonsense ….

  34. They went out to try and stop Home Rule, the wish of the democratic majoity of the Island.

    They thought that they could usurp democracy by bringing the gun into Irish politics.

  35. MR

    >>There was no huge window of opportunity for…<<

    But surely this was a perfect opportunity for the veterans of the Ulster Division to close ranks (no pun) with their Catholic countrymen who has served alongside them, in spire of what had happened in 1916.

    I’m afraid your view of the Easter rising is marked more by prejudice than by historical objectivity.
    Connolly didn’t need to join "the religious right". He was going to lead a rising by himself if need be. The Volunteers leaders in fact had to restrain him from bringing the Citizen Army out in 1915.

    His motivation was complex. Many of those with his experience were filled with a hatred for the Peelers after 1913 and really wanted to hit back. Also, people react to disaster in different ways, and Connolly was absolutely dismayed by the huge Irish losses at Ypres and Gallipoli. They thought Ireland was being bled white, and that they had to do something to stop the continuing euphoria of enlistment. In this last cause at least they were probably successful. Enlistment would no doubt have been much higher but for the Rising, and on the balance many more Irishmen would have lost their lives.

  36. That’ cobblers Chris – you said the guys who went off to fight …. farm boys and working class lads went for their own selfish interests ….

    AND don’t talk wet about bringing the gun into Irish Politics … that’s another one of the Green sacred cows which is about to be slaughtered …..

    The Fenians ( proper use) had been importing guns for more than 20 years before the prods started …..
    True or False ?

  37. I disagree with your analysis Noel ….

  38. Yes MR, their own selfish interests. Namely stopping Home Rule.

    Trying to overturn the wish of the majority of this island.

    Democracy and Freedom? Sectarianim and Bigotry is more like it!

  39. I notice you have run away from the bringing the gun into Irish Politics nonsense 🙂

    How did men at the Somme think that by killing Germans, alongside Irish RCs who were also killing Germans, they were stopping Home Rule ?

  40. MR

    Don’t play stupid.Unionist joined the war for one reason and one reason only, to stop Home Rule.

  41. Re.: bringing the gun into Irish Politics

    The Auld Fenian Gun was irrelevant for 20th C Irish politics. The Fenian rifles were American Civil War surplus, some were even older. They were at least half a century old and completely obsolete by 1916! Besides, there is no indication that the Ulster rebels were bothered by, or even aware of, any rusty old rifles around the country. Unionists already had far more and much better weapons themselves, even before the gun-running.

  42. Mahons

    nice (in both senses of the word) post.
    Indeed we should be placing more importance on thinking about the men and women who served and sacrificed for noble motivation to do with freedom and country, than on any "bubblehead reader of the news"

    Lest we forget!

  43. What a joke.

    Personally I have no problem with wearing a poppy.

    However, the whole point of both world wars particularly WWII was fighting fascism and defending democracy and free speech.

    However, when Jon Snow (in this case) makes a free democratic choice, posters on this topic slaughter him because he doesn’t do what they think he should do.

    So, you can have freedom of choice so long as you choose what the poppy people want. Rank hypocrisy.

    You would think that Jon Snow wore symbols of other causes and deliberately snubbed the British Legion. As he said, he wants to remain completely neutral and doesn’t wear any symbols of any campaigns or causes.

    At least he is honest and consistent. He has every right to make his choice and, whether people agree with it or not, they should respect it.

    Some of the posters on this topic who are saying "Lest We Forget" seem to have forgotten the true meaning of democracy and free speech.

  44. Billy

    as the poster who said "lest we forget" I presume that this is directed at me.

    Where have I "slaughtered him" for his decison about the poppy?

    Even if I had, the battle against fascism was not about people being free to make decsions not that they should be free from critisism for those decsions. There is a difference between what people shhould do and what they should be forced to do.

  45. oops that should have been "the battle about fascism was about people being free to make decsions…."

  46. The Easter Rising was an entirely predictable event. It was the result of human nature, among other things.

    Too bad the Unionists couldn’t swallow their pride in 1918 and respect the wishes of the majority instead of forcing an unfair compromise. Maybe they realized how much they had gotten away with collectively prior to that time and assumed there would be payback.

  47. Still waiting for Billy to enlighten me as to where I have made any comment about Jon Snow and his decison.
    I gave my opinion on what wearing the poppy means to me and agreeing with Mahons that I am more interested in the stories of those who served than in Jon Snow..

  48. Aileen

    You gave an excellent commentary on the reasons why we should all be proud to wear the poppy and you did so without any negative comment towards any individual who doesn’t. Billy should acknowledge that his criticism should not have been aimed at you.

  49. I dont think his comments were aimed at you, Aileen. Often when you read through a tread, you remember the general gist but forget who exactly said what. This is probably what happened here.

  50. = through a thread,
    (funny this correction function never seems to work for me!)

  51. CUNNINGHAM

    But have you logged in as one of the priviliged users. I keep forgetting to do so and admit I haven’t tried that yet.

  52. Colm

    Thanks mate.

    Cunningham

    I appreciate that you are trying to make peace but "Some of the posters on this topic who are saying "Lest We Forget" seem to have forgotten the true meaning of democracy and free speech."

    ..coming immediatley after my post, the last three words of which were "lest we forget" and when no one else actually said it.

  53. Cunningham

    how do you work that?

    I logged in and saved the page that asks for my passowrd etc as a favourite. I got a bit tired of having to log in each time though. Is there anyother way?

  54. Aileen, I havent worked it out either. When this new site started and I got my password etc., I did see and use hte function (I think I just clicked on my name after the posting, and this brought me into Edit mode). But I can’t get in any more. Ill check it out later.

    Re. Billy.
    Just look at the content of both your and his comments. He can’t have been referring to you. He probably meant people who were falsely claiming to be remembering the war dead.

  55. Cunningham

    then who was he referring to? apart from the fact that I was the only one who said "lest we forger", I can’t see anyone who has said that Jon Snow shouldn’t have the right to chose, indeed the most crital comments have been about his words not the decsion itself.

  56. Aileen,

    >>I can’t see anyone who has said that Jon Snow shouldn’t have the right to chose<<

    He (Billy) was not complaining that some people said Snow didn’t have the right to choose, but that they don’t respect the choice Snow makes. And some people don’t respect Snow’s choice!

  57. Cunningham

    I think that those that commented on his choice had more of a problem with his choice of words than not wearing the poppy. I notice that no one has roasted Fanny.

  58. No, it think they don’t respect his choice because he made it publically, on public TV.

    Besides, they’re probably all too afraid of our Fanny!

  59. Aileen

    My post was not aimed at any one specific person. I am genuinely sorry if it offended you – that was certainly not my intention.

    I am well aware that it is not your way to "slaughter" people in your posts (in hindsight that was a poor choice of words). It’s just that some posters on this topic are acting as if Jon Snow were some sort of terrorist.

    I lost relatives in the Royal Navy during WWII and, as I said, I have no problem with the poppy myself.

    It’s just that I feel strongly about people who claim to be so proud of those who defended free speech and yet would apparently deny other people that right because they don’t like the views they express.

    For instance, I despise the BNP and Nick Griffin but I am glad that he was acquitted in his court case. This is a democracy and he is entitled to express his views.

    I honestly didn’t notice that it was your post said "Lest we forget".

    I was just making a general point that we should not forget those who gave their lives nor should we forget the principles that they were defending.

    I think that some of the posters on this topic remember the first but have apparently forgotten the latter.

  60. Billy

    thanks for that. The "lest we forget seemed too much of a coinscidence but I accept that that is in fact what it was.

    I do have to say that I don’t see that anyone was denying his right to free speech but were using their right to free speech to say they found his views offensive,

    No hard feelings. :o)

  61. Did you see the size of the poppies on the X-Factor tonight? Any bigger and they’d have been a fire hazard.

  62. Well Alison for one thought it was perfectly acceptable to question why an individual wasn’t wearing a poppy and disagreed with me when I said that no-one should have to justify or even be asked to justify why they aren’t wearing one.

  63. Colm

    Not sure why it’s a problem if someone is asked why they aren’t wearing one, depending on how the question is asked. I personnaly don’t think that I would ask an individual, but I would, a public representative, e.g. a politician I might be thinking of voting for.

    Hugh

    They come in many sizes. The advantage of the big ones os that what they are made out of are more robust. I notice that Louis was wearing one too this year.

  64. But aileen it’s that whole element of a moral pressure to be seen wearing one which I think is wrong . If someone particularly in the public eye feels they should wear one purely in order to avoid the hassle of being asked to justify their non wearing of one it rather spoils the whole meaning of it don’t you think.

  65. Colm

    It depends on whether you think that it is moral pressure. As I said I avoid wearing charity badges apart from poppies even when I donate. I would have no trouble in answering why if asked, deoending in how I was asked and who did the asking.

    If someone that I was thinking of voting for did not wear a poppy, I would want to know why. The answer may just be that it fell off!

  66. Aileen

    I was thinking more for example what happens if a BBC presenter isn’t seen wearing one when most of the others are, and a string of letters or complaints come into the BBC demanding to know why with the clear impression being given that this presenter should not be allowed on screen without a poppy.

  67. Colm

    It is a bit if a tricky area. I think that if I was a news presenter and there was a convention to wear, say red ribbons, on AIDS awarenees day, then I wouls actually me making a statement if I didn’t. I think that people would have a right to complain. I’m not sre if they have the right to insist. I also think that they would have the right to complain abotu my new hairstyle if they didn;t like. it. I would be under no obligation to change this though as long as the bosses didn’t object.