Vatican Wishes to pray for Jews, MSM decries ‘Anti-Semitism’
By ATWadmin On April 30th, 2007
To the left, you see Pope Benedict XVI, current pontiff of the Catholic Church (aka: Church of Rome, Anti-Christ, Fish-eaters, and various other nasty and small-minded little slurs). As few of you are likely to know, he wants to reintroduce access to the latin mass to RC (Roman Catholic) churches on a larger scale. Access which shrank dramatically after the bishops conference known as Vatican II. As part of this planned revival, a particular prayer for the Jews would be re-introduced to services, praying that they to whom Christ came first would see the light of salvation. But apparently praying for someone’s salvation is hate speech, so the BBC is Not Happy.
Says the BBC of the old latin mass (also known as the Tridentine Mass):
"The old wording has none of the Vatican Council thinking that reversed long-standing anti-Jewish views in the Church. Vatican II brought about a revolution in Catholic thinking, highlighting the ancient Jewish roots of Christianity and affirming God’s love for the Jews."
Al-Beeb, lover of all things Judaic and Israeli, as we know, spends several long paragraphs quoting people saying that there is not much demand for the Tridentine, that "Any liturgy that presents Jews as being doomed in their faith doesn’t present a very healthy attitude towards Judaism and the Jewish people", etc, etc. No-where is there seen a fair quote or comment that praying for the Jews is a Christian and loving thing. Indeed, al-Beeb goes out of its way to quote someone referring to calls for Jews to convert to Christianity as a noxious and evil thing. Imagine! Calling people to eternal life and salvation! (You can almost hear some BBC top-man muttering to himself in a corner "Wicked, trickssy, Catholicss! We hatess them, Preciouss, we hatess them!")
You can read the whole hatchet-job here. (Or, of course, you could just go back to hoping and praying someone else starts posting here soon so that you won’t have to read more of this kind of thing.)
Hat-tip to Emitte Lucem Tuam and Andrew of Pub Mass fame.
I am delighted to hear that the Church will make the latin mass more available. I attended my first Tridentine mass in London a month ago and it was fantastic.
After 22 years of boring, wishe washe liberal, all things to all men crap it was refreshing to hear a strong service in favour of Catholic views.
40% of British Muslims view Jewish targets as legitimate but its the Pope who’s an anti-semite? So glad I’ve got the BBC there to make sure I am in step with the other sheep.
Mr. Smith: The majority of us fish-eaters are quite happy with the venacular. The Latin Rite has its adherents, and I wouldn’t begrudge them their choice. As for the particular prayer, I think its intentions are benign and I myself don’t mind if other religions wich to pray for me and mine. I suppose we all could use the help.
Hold on – isn’t Latin a foreign language ? Shouldn’t your party be fighting to have Irish masses for the … Irish masses ?
Mad: nice wordplay.
MR
Sinn Féin don’t have policies on any religion, they are a pluralist party. In fact quite a few in the party would be anti-Church, not the religion just the church authorities.
My religious views and political views are totally seperate.
–Mahons–
Surely the benevolent intent of the prayer was the whole point of the post? With the BBC mis-reading being the other part of the whole point, that is.
Anyone who has listed to the gregorian chants will know how beautiful and uplifting is the Mass in Latin, esp with a good choir.
they are a pluralist party.
cough, cough
Mr. Smith -It seems so.
Just shows what the former nazi’s true colours are. He either got his extream ant-sematic views from his time in the Hitler Youth, or perhaps from the priests and bishops who helped Nazi war criminals escape justice after the Second World War.
Imagine the Pope praying "that Jews would see the light of salvation", when his own bloomin church rejects repentance, being born again in the spirit and washed clean by Christ’s blood.
Pot calling the Kettle black!
Sigh.
Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men….when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret…."
Luke 18:10-14: "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Matt.6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."
Good scripture US – now whats your point ?
JOC, why don’t you read them for yourself, instead of relying on another’s opinion?
God is a personnel God, even Jesus prayed to God alone, without any big publicity stunt.
Matthew 14:23: Jesus went up on the mountain by himself to pray.
Matthew 26:36-44: Jesus went with three disciples, left them behind and went further to pray alone. This is the well known passage in which his disciples fell asleep at Gethsemane, just before Jesus’ arrest and execution.
Mark 1:35: Jesus is went to a solitary place to pray.
Luke 3:21: This passage describes how Jesus was baptized and was in prayer when the Holy Ghost descended. Unfortunately, this passage does not describe how and where Jesus was praying.
Luke 5:16: Jesus is described as often going to lonely places to pray by himself
Luke 6:12: Jesus withdrew to a mountainside to pray. Verse 13 implies that he was alone at the time.
Luke 9:19: Jesus was praying alone, with his disciples in the vicinity.
Luke 22:41-43: Jesus withdrew from his disciples "about a stone’s throw" to pray by himself.
John 16, 17: These chapters are ambiguous about the circumstances of Jesus’ prayer just before his arrest. He first talked to his disciples; then he prayed, then he went with his disciples across the Kidron valley. It is not clear where the disciples were situated when Jesus prayed. But if he was consistent with the pattern described in other passages, he would have left the disciples behind, and prayed in private.
Percy.
You bet.
Notra Dame Cathedral. Any day. Wow!
Public or congregational worship is an interesting subject.
From 1889
http://www.newblehome.co.uk/bonar/sermon-meeting.html
one thing has puzzled me though – I was raised in the awareness of an omniscient God who is always present -so this doesn’t make sense to me -
"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them"
(Matt. 18. 20).
"praying for the Jews is a Christian and loving thing"
That’s a relief, when at first I read the references to their blindness and veiled hearts I thought that maybe those Catholics didn’t like the Jews.
Then again it could have been the fact that until as late as 1914 they repeated the blood libel in Vatican newspapers that made me think that.
Anyway, in the same spirit I hope that they one day find a cure for the aphasia that afflicts Roman Catholics, and that one day they learn to accept the help they need to lead them away from their tendency to mindless hate, misogyny, and terrorising of children.
Remember, this is not bigotry against Catholics but merely the loving thing to do.
Frank: At least you didn’t write that in Latin. Now I am off to revel in my mindless hate, misogyny and terrorizing of children.
Madradin Ruad,
Matt. 18. 20 is about preaching, not praying. Verse 15 starts with a single person explaining faults to his brother. The chapter continues with two or three people explaining faults to this brother. Then the whole congregation should preach unto him and if he still doesn’t listen to the congregation, consider him a heathen and publican.
Now I am off to revel in my mindless hate, misogyny and terrorizing of children.
And here was me thinking you were heading off for a beer!
As a publican can he then serve them a few pints?
Mad: All in good time. Good to have you back in the mix.
Mahons – 2 weeks without Car or online access – it’s good to be back! Now for the Sopranos – Bada Bing!
Does the protestant God love S(h)inners?
Before anyone goes
"yeah, when they repent"
Lets remind ourselves that it was the miracle of God’s love through Christ, that he died for us whilst we were still sinners.
Ergo to follow christ is to love s(h)inners.
It is arrogant for Catholics to pray for Jews or any religous faith to believe it has the monopoly on god’s blessings and that those who aren’t members of their club are inferior and needing praying for. Such sentiment is at the mild end of a long and miserable thought process that foments evil attitudes and behaviour towards other humans. The BBC are right to highlight the anti-semitism of traditional pre Vatican II theology. Jewish people no more need the prayers of Roman Catholics than Catholics need to repent of their "devotion to idolotary" or non-Muslims need to be dubbed ‘Infidels’. All such religous supremacist attitudes are intolerant and wrong.
…Unless one is guilty of mortal ‘shin’, Percy!
BBC Journalist: "Thirty years ago a large part of England would have said that Roman Catholics lived in a fairyland of their own. But since the Second Vatican Council opened the – "
Mgr Gilbey: "My dear man, do forgive my interruption. The fact is that we Catholics do live in a fairyland. It is just that it happens to be true."
"guilty of mortal ‘shin’"
What the hell is wrong with shin???
Catholics eat Pork, only the Muslims that don’t! I’m ashamed at you Tom
Any truth in the rumours Chris ?
Which rumour is that, there are so many
I’m not sure – I haven’t decided which ones to start yet LOL!
Hey I think some regulars like Mahons for example have got it slightly wrong.
The pre-Vatican ritual will probably be used in English Translation and not in Latin itself.
It will only be optional – it will be up to the priest or pastor to decide.
Latin masses will probably be reserved for papal ceremonial and important international functions.
I think Latin is an important part of the Catholic identity but is much neglected nowadays. The vernacular liturgy is less demanding and more democratic, but in religion, the less demands you make the less people will feel they’ve come to the right place!
Colm,
The continued existence of Judaism is in itself a rejection of Christ and his message. No doubt the Jews are free to reject Christ but that makes them members – sorry to say this – of a kind of theological flat earth society from the Christian point of view.
Every Jewish male traditionally thanks God for not having made him a woman or a Gentile. How is it that the media doesn’t consider this as bigotry on the part of Jews? And further in what sense can it be illogical for Christians to pray for Jews? The issue as I see it is primarily emotional and has nothing to do with theological consistency.
Grim Reaper,
Hitler didn’t kill the Jews because he was a Catholic, please try to understand that. There are a lot of Catholics who don’t kill Jews.
Ulster Scot,
Pity you don’t seem to believe that when Jesus was preaching to the multitudes, he might also have led them in prayer. And the Acts of the Apostles is full of instances of believers praying – and breaking bread – in groups including huge groups like in Acts 4. Perhaps the Catholic Church had already apostasized before Pentecost? In any case John 17 says that it is the will of Jesus that there should be only ONE Church including all believers in Ulster and beyond its borders. So which one will it be? The Church of Scotland?
"It is arrogant for Catholics to pray for Jews or any religous faith to believe it has the monopoly on god’s blessings and that those who aren’t members of their club are inferior and needing praying for. Such sentiment is at the mild end of a long and miserable thought process that foments evil attitudes and behaviour towards other humans. The BBC are right to highlight the anti-semitism of traditional pre Vatican II theology. Jewish people no more need the prayers of Roman Catholics than Catholics need to repent of their "devotion to idolotary" or non-Muslims need to be dubbed ‘Infidels’. All such religous supremacist attitudes are intolerant and wrong."
Sorry, I just had to reproduce the comment in full. The self-righteous indignation is so very funny. And the absolutist relativism? Priceless.
Hi Adrian,
Nice to talk again, but do I spy the word ‘might’ appearing again? Assuming things always leads away from God. Man can’t imagine God’s ideas and when he assumes he can, he ends up blaming the bible and claiming it’s contradicting when his assumptions clash with God’s.
As for the issue of there being one church, I hope you don’t think I’m the type of Protestant who believes a certain named ‘church’ is worthy?
‘Church’ as written in the scriptures is not the same meaning of church today. Church in the scriptures means congregation, Christ’s congregation, not Catholic, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Free P, Baptist, ect.
For any ‘church’ to claim it’s the only one true christian church, is blasphemy and based on man’s assumptions.
Mr Smith
Unable to refute my argument then , just a feeble sneering response because I dare to be critical of an unpleasant facet of religous denominational supremacy.
Colm,
Your post had its good points of course but surely you realise that any affirmation of Judaism in itself as a vehicle of salvation would undermine the very foundation of the Christian religion. Would you want us to do that?
Have you read the actual text of the prayer? I haven’t, but I know that the prayer that we recite on Good Friday has nothing to do with the conversion of the Jews to Christianity. It merely expresses our hope that the Jewish people will receive the fullness of salvation that we believe we have received through Jesus. It’s a harmless, inoffensive prayer, almost worthy of the relativistic age we live in.
Ulster Scot,
Right so you’re saying it’s possible that Jesus never led a crowd in prayer? You *might* know better than I do. I can’t directly contradict that claim but I do know that Jesus prayed in public because Luke claims that his Gospel is based on eyewitness accounts, yet it has more references to Jesus at prayer than any other Gospel. So it’s fairly obvious that there were eyewitnesses around from time to time to watch Jesus praying.
There are several references to Jesus praying in public:
Luke 3:21 Now it happened, when all the people were baptized, Jesus also had been baptized, and was praying.
Luke 9:16 He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to the sky, he blessed them, and broke them, and gave them to the disciples to set before the multitude.
Luke 9: 28 he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray.
Also worthy of note are:
Luke 19:46 (quoting the Old Testament) ‘My house is a house of prayer’
Matthew 6 ‘Our Father’ not my father. Obviously meant to be prayed as a community if not in a community.
To complete your argument you will need to explain when and by whom group prayer was introduced into the Church. In my view it is clear that fairly large numbers of Christians were praying in a group from shortly before the day of Pentecost at least.
Regarding your other arguments, it’s obvious that the Church founded on Cephas alone is the right one.