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TAKING THE PROVERBIAL…

By David Vance On January 12th, 2012

Ah, the liberals are enraged.

The Obamafied US military is investigating an online video purportedly showing Marines urinating on the corpses of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, a spokesman said Wednesday, calling the behaviour “disgusting”.

The video shows what appears to be four servicemen, dressed in US military uniform, relieving themselves onto three bloodied bodies on the ground, apparently aware that they are being filmed. “Have a great day, buddy,” one of them says. The Pentagon has not yet verified the video, but spokesman John Kirby told AFP: “Regardless of the circumstances or who is in the video, this is… egregious, disgusting behaviour, unacceptable for anyone in uniform.” “It turned my stomach,” he added of the video, which was posted on the Live Leak website.

Right. Reality check. War is NOT played out by the Queensberry rules. It is kill or be killed. It involves high emotions, high aggression. Sure it is unbecoming to urinate on the corpse of the enemy but then again in the aftermath  of a fire fight emotions run high and I put NO blame on the soldiers. It is IMPOSSIBLE to “desecrate” the Taliban since they have already desecrated themselves through their innate savagery. What do some people think war actually is? It’s not about shaking hands and being gentlemanly.

Taliban scum deserve all that they get and I trust that the soldiers concerned are congratulated for killing the enemy.

86 Responses to “TAKING THE PROVERBIAL…”

  1. “It involves high emotions, high aggression. Sure it is unbecoming to urinate on the corpse of the enemy but then again in the aftermath of a fire fight emotions run high and I put NO blame on the soldiers.”

    Right. So if the Taleban fighters – who are certainly high on the same emotion and aggression you describe – were to urinate or even shit on dead US soldiers, you would accept that too.

  2. yeah Noel we would, they do worse actually, they like to cut prisoners heads and hands off while they are still living, so oh lets get upset over this boo hoo.

    They should have poured bacon grease on them after the finished peeing

  3. Great.

    There’s one thing pissing on them, videoing it (if it’s true) and posting it on the web? That’s a special level of stupidity.

    That the Taliban does worse is beside the point. We’re supposed to be better. We’re supposed to be improving bad lands. Does anyone think this will make locals a touch cynical about those efforts with the footage going around the Middle East?

    Yeah, I know, boo hoo and all that.

    Well boo hoo for our soldiers who might pay the price soon for what these morons are doing.

  4. “so oh lets get upset over this boo hoo.”

    Everyone knows that if some footage of Taleban guys pissing on British or American soldiers were to come out, it would be plastered over ATW and 1000 other right-wing blogs as an example of their depravity.

    But when “our brave lads” do it, it’s no longer an example of depravity after all but is simply due to fatigue and emotions etc.

  5. Noel

    I know who the enemy is. Do you?

  6. Pete

    I agree posting the video was not clever. That said, we are better than the savages that were killed. Much better.

  7. “I know who the enemy is. Do you?”

    Yes – ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy.

    And I know how to recognise them. Do you?

  8. War isn’t fought under Queensberry rules. It is however fought under the rules of the Geneva Conventions, the Hague Conventions etc. And this incident, which you think is just a not nice act but not particular bad, is a war crime. It is simple as that. Those marines committed a war crime. They should be dishonourably discharged and sent to prison.

  9. Eddie,

    I was mistaken on that other thread. Looks as though your comments are not out of place at ATW.

    “It is IMPOSSIBLE to “desecrate” the Taliban since they have already desecrated themselves through their innate savagery.”

    David,

    You clearly know more about genetics than the rest of us. Do please share with us your knowledge of the “savagery” gene that’s transmitted from a Taliban to his offspring.

  10. I think it’s disgusting.

  11. Just one point. War is not now fought under the rules of the Geneva Convention, well at least not by both sides.

  12. Ah, the liberals are enraged

    I doubt that only liberals are offended by this disgusting behaviour. Let’s not join the Taliban in the gutter.

  13. A true warrior shows respect for his fallen opponent.

    These Taliban fought for an atrocious cause, but it was one that they believed in.

    I’m very disappointed that this happened. And yes, these marines would be stupid beyond words, to violate the code in this way and then film the evidence for all to see.

  14. I love it. Yea, the smell of nalpam is part of it but the entire rush of stomping the guts out of someone trying to kill you is paramount to the male’s mental well being.

    This pissing incident is nothing compared to slicing off the ear of a NVA gook or tossing his worthless ass out of a slick hovering at 1,000 feet or yanking out the Gold tooth of a dead Nip.

    Times may have changed but the adrenalin and Testosterone rush you get out of blowing away your enemy and surviving in tact is 100-times better than the climax you get after having an hour long sex session with the most gorgeous woman within a hundred miles.

    Hunting animals sucks………but hunting and defeating armed humans?………That’s what seperates the killers from the X-Box and Play-station game players!

  15. The opposite of this recent incident

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJUzIKeJJdY

    There were incidents where the US Navy gave a military funeral at sea to a Japanese kamikaze who had nearly destroyed them.

    You don’t lose any military effectiveness by showing some respect to a man who just fell in combat.

    And the savage actions of some soldiers in Vietnam did not help the US cause – they only made the Viet Cong more determined, while they made the US look like the lost cause that it was in that war.

  16. Looks as though our host misjudged the sensibilities of decent people on ATW.

    Any minute now he’ll be manning up and posting a retraction.

    Meanwhile . . . time will pass, the grass will continue to grow, and entire generations of fruit fly will be born, grow to adulthood, procreate, and die :)

  17. David V: “I agree posting the video was not clever. That said, we are better than the savages that were killed. Much better”.
    No we’re not David. The vast majority of people on this planet are shallow, thoughtless, selfish, hypocrites who couldn’t give a shit about there fellow human beings. And sadly, I have to include myself in this group.

  18. The Taliban would only get enraged if the dead men had Korans in their pockets as they were pissed on.

    These idiots will have pissed off the local population and put their fellow Marines & Soldiers at greater risk. Whilst no one was hurt- so it shouldn’t be compared to massacres and other serious war crimes- it is loathsome behavior.

  19. Richard

    You misunderstand my role here. It’s not to worry about the sensibilities of the ATW community. I write what I think and if people agree, fine. If they don’t, just as fine. Dead Taliban are always a good result. Maybe some of those who rush to condemn the soldiers concerned would show much greater restraint in the heat of battle, but then again…

  20. Yes – those marines did put their fellow combatants at risk.

    I’d like to know who was supposed to be commanding them, and who supposedly trained them.

  21. First off it isn’t “just liberals” who are dismayed by this stupid and atrocious behavior. David, take a break from your bias once in a while and cop on to reality.

    It is against the code of conduct. The gross stupidity of filming it is as bad as the act itself: allowing it to be used as propoganda by the Taliban and anti-US elements. It was a disgusitng act.

  22. “Right. So if the Taleban fighters – who are certainly high on the same emotion and aggression you describe – were to urinate or even shit on dead US soldiers, you would accept that too.”

    http://hagarusa.org/where-we-work/afghanistan/
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HYkLUMR_7HI/TbgtsiZqe8I/AAAAAAAAHhk/8a5jJfdY2hQ/s1600/DSC01732%2Bcopy-753638.jpg

    Noel,
    I somehow suspect the Taliban do worst things than pissing on corpses…

  23. “The gross stupidity of filming it .. ”

    And of course in all likelihood the comrades and leaders of the men being urinated on will be part of the future Afghanistan government, will have seen this and similar videos, and will be a force in a region where the West can do without another enemy.

  24. lets get upset over this boo hoo.

    Some of us might want to take a few years off from discussing any and all military matters.

  25. Noel,
    Did you look at the last picture?http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HYkLUMR_7HI/TbgtsiZqe8I/AAAAAAAAHhk/8a5jJfdY2hQ/s1600/DSC01732%2Bcopy-753638.jpg

    Have a look at this video…

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd3_1310954791

    Now forget your delicate sensibilities for a moment, and consider:
    WHY do so many of our young soldiers suffer with PTS after seeing combat in areas like Afghanistan?
    How much needless and cold blooded savagery do we regularly see in our Western societies as opposed to everyday life in Taliban controlled areas of Afghanistan?

    It’s so easy to be genteel and civilised when its not your life on the line. Understanding why this stuff happens is not the same as condoning it.

  26. Mahons,

    “Atrocious behaviour”?

    Two weeks ago,a young Scottish soldier serving in Afghanistan was kidnapped by these noble savages, genitally mutilated before being shot and his body thrown at the side of the road. That’s atrocious

    Beheading defenceless Afghanistan civilians, that’s atrocious.

    Tell me, when did the Taliban sign up the Geneva Conventions?

    Listen, I have agreed that the videoing was stupid and the act was vugar and un=necessary. Killing them was good enough.

    But if you want to bandy terms like atrocious about, I suggest you reflect rather more carefully on the incidents that incite such terms.

  27. Agit8ed – No one is objecting to this out of delicate sensibilities. There is no excuse for this behavior.

  28. Understanding why

    a) it happened

    and

    b) the idiots decided to FILM IT and pass it around?

    I can almost understand a. B does not compute.

    And this happens after Abu Ghraib etc and all of that?

    I have the greatest respect for those who fight, esp this type of war. But you do not support your men under arms by condoning any action that they take.

  29. David -Oh come off your high horse, we all object to atrocities committed by the Taliban. You’ve tried and failed to twist this into some political charge against the US Administration (Obamafied military) and make excuses for the bad behavior of these soldiers.

  30. Damn, those fruit flies sure do multiply. I’ve just seen yet another generation of the little rascals take to the sky :)

  31. Mahons

    Who is the Commander in Chief? Is it the same moral hypocrite who told us he would close Guantanamo (Happy 10th birthday)
    Bad behaviour? Yes.
    Atrocious? No.
    Obama’s fault? No. Just as Abu Ghraid was not Bush’s fault.
    My issue is actually not really any of the above so let me spell it out a bit more. The media has this splashed all over it (so to speak) with Taliban spokesmen getting their comments in. Yet when Taliban kill our military, it barely registers with the MSM. If I have a high horse, this is it.

  32. “Understanding why this stuff happens is not the same as condoning it.”

    And that’s why you’re falling over yourself to understand why the Teleban commits its atrocities.

    “young Scottish soldier serving in Afghanistan was kidnapped by these noble savages, genitally mutilated before being shot ”

    David, war is NOT played out by the Queensberry rules. It is kill or be killed. It involves high emotions, high aggression. Sure it is unbecoming to genitally mutilate the enemy, but then again in the aftermath of a fire fight emotions run high.

  33. Noel

    Who is the enemy. Us or the Taliban.

    In the instance quoted, the young soldier was kidnapped before the ritual torture so beloved by the Taliban. He was defenceless.

    Still, you could always write to his family offering your support for the side you support.

  34. The media has duly covered Taliban atrocities. The fact that the enemy is awful does not excuse our soldiers from conducting themselves accordign to our standards.

  35. “Who is the enemy. Us or the Taliban.”

    Do you have to pick sides because personally I don’t give a damn.

  36. Seamus

    We’ve known this about you for some time.

  37. The media conducts the deaths of our military with studied indifference all too often.

  38. I suppose the blame lies with the movie ‘Hell in the Pacific’ where Lee Marvin pee’ed on the head of Japanese soldier Toshiro Mifune, while he slept.
    But that was 1968 and depicting soldiers doing such things to one another (even if fiction) is just too awful to contemplate in our caring/sharing 21st century.
    The film must never be shown again lest it incites further copycat episodes.
    Gimme a break.

  39. David

    I can understand why you would fail to be outraged or angered by the incident itself and to care not for what happens to the dead bodies of the enemy, but you should be angered by this incident for one reason. By filming the event and thereby ensuring it will be seen by millions in Afganistan and other Islamic countries, these stupidly immature and selfish soldiers have just handed the Taliban and Jihadists everywhere a massive propoganda weapon. It is the leaders of Jihadists and Islamic terrorist groups who will be rubbing thair hands with glee at this event. These soldiers by their recklessness have just seriously increased the risk to the lives of their colleagues and other Nato soldiers.

    The consequence of more bodybags of young wasted lives of our soldiers coming back here , THAT is what should anger you David.

  40. Colm

    That’s a fair point. The videoing and posting of it (if true) was stupid. But then again, do you think the Taliban need an excuse for killing?

  41. The Taliban need no excuse to commit atrocities. This is what they do.

    But there are some in the population that you can persuade to be your friend or at least not to be your enemy. Broadcasts like this helps tilt them to the side of the Taliban, aided and abetted by breathless propaganda as rebroadcast by multiple sources including Al Jazeera.

  42. This bolsters the Taliban’s propaganda and helps them draw recruits and support and sympathy.

  43. Colm,
    You are right. Pissing on the corpses was wrong, but that’s a mixture of lack of discipline and perhaps reaction to being deployed in a war zone where they will have witnessed all kinds of horrors. I believe it is well documented how the Mujahideen tortured Soviet Army prisoners..
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7933337.stm

    The really stupid thing was as you say, to film it.

  44. The linked article refers to how Soviet deserters were actually treated well by the locals

  45. The real disgrace is that we send civilised human brings abroad to kill and maim on the false premise that it is for ‘our defence’.

    If, and when they do that job effectively, they are the ones who, whether intentionally or not become debased and perhaps ‘less civilised’. Killing another human has that effect on even the most hardened individual.

    That they are then sneered and jeered at for behaving in a ‘less than perfect’ manner displays the utter ignorance and lack of understanding of those who have been fortunate enough never to have been placed in the situation, on the decision of others, where they have had little option but to kill, or be killed.

    Like so many things in life, – if you haven’t been in the situation, you simply cannot imagine how you might behave in a similar circumstance. You may imagine how you would like to behave, but that is no guarantee as to how it might work out.

    That we may well feel the marines bahaviour demeans us all, – perhaps it is really a true reflection, and maybe, – just maybe, we aren’t so perfect as we like to think we are.

    It brings to mind Kipings quote:-

    “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

  46. Phantom,
    Yes it does, but they were offered the choice of conversion to Islam or execution. If you look at the other links I posted for Noel, you will see how effective their methods can be.
    But that’s not to excuse the stupid stuff our troops have done. Filming anything like that is not wise.

  47. Ernest

    Excellent points

  48. OK, OK, it’s alright for American and British soliders to urinate on dead people, but just don’t let people find out about it.

  49. Ernest’s points are certainly a good reminder of the reality of war and how naive we back at home are to expect ‘Queensbury rules’ but I don;t see how it applies in this case. This is not the anger and emotion of battle or the chaos confusion and fear of the war zone. Neither is it the actions of ‘deadened’ hard bitten men who are reacting against the horrors they are plunged into. This is more like a college ‘spring break’ Jackass type stunt coolly and jokingly filmed for entertainment purposes. However, in these times we have known for many years the repercussions of such propoganda gifts, in an era where bad publicity is as big a weapon to the enemy as any amount of military hardware. I am not going to sneer at them for being ‘uncivilised’ but they deserve rebuke for their monumental stupidity.

  50. How do you know that Colm?

  51. Noel

    That’s not what I am arguing. I am just trying to point out to those like David and Ross and Eddie who don’t care about it, that there are consequences which they might care about.

  52. “Like so many things in life, – if you haven’t been in the situation, you simply cannot imagine how you might behave in a similar circumstance. You may imagine how you would like to behave, but that is no guarantee as to how it might work out.”

    All of a sudden conservatives are turning into liberals.

    Not many of us here have been in the position of coming from broken, underclass homes on crappy council estates. Doesn’t stop us piling in when chavs from broken, underclass homes on crappy council estates find themselves in the press for a bit of GBH.

    Yes, war zones do strange things to young men, and that’s with the benefit of training and discipline and peer pressure not to let the side down. All the more reason not to send so many to them into war for dishonest reasons. Too many of them flip out on their return. Too many of them are topping themsevles if not killing others.

    Some might be surprised to learn that more Falklands veterens have committed suicide than died in that war.

    So if we’re all going to start acknowledging – all of a sudden – what war does to men, let’s have a bit less of the big talk and willy waving and marching in step to the obvious war propaganda, eh?

  53. David

    I do not know for certain . Like everyone else hear, I am just giving my opinion on what I see and my take on it. Opinions are not facts, they are fallible entities, yours and mine alike.

  54. That’s not what I am arguing. I am just trying to point out to those like David and Ross and Eddie who don’t care about it, that there are consequences which they might care about.

    Me?

  55. Oops sorry Ross, slip of the keyboard. I didn’t mean to right your name. That was supposed to be Troll (our otherwise pacifist American friend) ;)

  56. another mistake – ‘right’ should be ‘write’

  57. He’s back on the Fosters.

  58. Fair enough.

    I though my flippant first sentence may have given the wrong impression.

  59. Pete

    Am I never to be forgiven for my cheap fizzy lager shame. I was only trying to save Phantom a few pennies when he asked me what I was having.

    Ross

    I could go all psycotherapist on you and say that flippant first sentences usually betray the hidden subconcious reality and all that ;)

  60. I can’t make up my mind about this (I mean about the veracity of the video). You’d have thought that, (after similar embarrasments in the past), the US troops would be under strict blanket orders not to engage in such idiocy, and definitely not to tape it!

    The thought crossed my mind, who is operating the camera? What if it was a Taleban goon, with several of his friends behind the camera with their guns pointed at the men in front of the camera? (ie, a deliberate set-up using captured men, for precisely this sort of propaganda reason). OK, it doesnt look or sound faked/set up, but then again it wouldn’t be any good if it did look set-up. They could always doctor the audio.

    The only problem I can see is that it would have to tally with a known capture. Hmmmm, I dunno. On balance, I think it probably is what it appears to be. All I’m saying is, we’ve already seen ‘fake Palestinian mourning woman’ and ‘fake ambulance shelled by Israel’ exposed for the lies they were. Gotta keep an open mind about these videos until they’re verified.

  61. Tom – The Department of Defense has confirmed that it is authentic.

  62. Two of the four have been identified.

  63. Colm –

    Hmmmm … no, you’re not.

  64. Colm- Freudian slips are just a figment of people’s ejaculations.

  65. Come Come now Ross, you shouldn’t be spurting stuff like that !

  66. Anyway I reckon these soldiers are all a bit gay. They just wanted an excuse to film each others willies ;)

  67. Confirmation & identification is all very well. I trust the DoD just as much as I trust the British, or the Iranians, the Canadians or the Russians on such statements.
    I’m not saying that I don’t believe the authenticity of this particular video. I have no opinion on it either way. All I’m saying is, in general terms, sometimes there’s a long game of chess involved in such matters.

  68. How would an armchair warrior who has never worn a uniform know what war involves?

    I guess you have a shelf full of Andy McNab.

  69. Tom

    Just ask Allan in Aberdeen. He’s the only one who will know the real truth ;)

  70. The advent of digital audio and video must present a whole new ball-game to the security services, I imagine.
    What if you need to capture some audio/video of …something or other, and you need to be able to show it to someone, and demonstrate beyond all doubt that the footage is absolutely original, and undoctored?
    In this day and age, anyone with a camcorder and computer has the means to construct a reasonably good looking faked video of anything or anyone they want, enough to fool an amateur at least.
    Now, of course, I imagine that government agencies have very sophisticated software that can identify such fakery, by examining video frame-by-frame and looking for the tell-tale unnatural signs of digital doctoring. But equally, they must also have software capable of countering such detection by ‘randomising’ the doctoring and making it look ‘natural’. …So, they would also develop software which can spot this deliberate randomisation….and they would then develop even more whizzy software to hide the detection of it…and so on, and so on. A sort of ‘digital arms race’.

    In this context, there are situations where it might be more clever to admit that an enemy file is ‘authentic’ than to let them know that you have decrypted the forgery.
    I’m not saying that this is the case here, I’m just speculating in general.

  71. Tom – I don’t trust them or distrust them automatically but The Department of Defense would prefer not to have to confirm. It is an admission that our soldiers behaved terribly in this instance.

  72. “So if we’re all going to start acknowledging – all of a sudden – what war does to men, let’s have a bit less of the big talk and willy waving and marching in step to the obvious war propaganda, eh?”

    Comment of the day.
    I’ve noticed here several times that those who – whenever there’s a massacre by our boys or a few rapes or an Abu Ghraib or murder of prisoners or a pissing-on-corpses contest – plead that such horrors are inevitable in war, are the very ones who call most loudly for war in the first place.
    i.e. they deliberately promote a set of circumstances that they know – by their own admission – will includes horrors and the deaths of innocents.

  73. “Sure it is unbecoming to urinate on the corpse of the enemy but then again in the aftermath of a fire fight emotions run high and I put NO blame on the soldiers.”

    How about the chickenhawks who praise this behaviour with faint damn, what’s their excuse?

    After all, as Agit8ed says:

    “It’s so easy to be genteel and civilised when its not your life on the line.”

    So you may all feel free to be so.

  74. I totally agree, Mahons, that assuming the video to be genuine, the soldiers behaved very stupidly. Almost suicidally, in fact.
    Let’s assume that the dead bodies we see on the ground are the result of an engagement with enemy forces just several minutes before the video was shot. Both sides would have taken cover. There was a small firefight, and the US soldiers took out this small group of Taleban in their little ditch. By heavens, (this is what I don’t understand), the soldiers must have felt very safe indeed to go over into that ditch, stand up in full view of the surrounding terrain, and spend time pissing on the bodies. How did they know there were no other Taleban units nearby? Whatever this video is showing, it is not the immediate aftermath of an engagement. They are standing somewhere where they know to be safe, that’s for sure.

  75. “where they know they are safe” , that should have read.

  76. Pete Moore,

    Your usual irrelevant comparison. The situation I was referring to quite different, actually being ‘on the frontline’, and being deliberatley shot at, or blown up, with a very real chance of ending up dead. The fear and the threat of that situation does strange things to folk, peeing on an enemy, while being juvenile, probably helped release some of the tension, and in my opinion, while not being the best thing to do, is excusable.

    Why I have even seen big strong men such as youself, actually pee on themselves, and even crap in their own pants, – it seems the bigger the mouth the more likely they were to lose control of their bodily functions,

    Unlike yourself, I have been in a ‘front line’ situation, – on several occasions and I know what I am writing about, so don’t spout your nonsense and faux morality – not to mention the snide reference to ‘big talk and willy waving’ in response to my comment, and I certainly wasn’t ‘marching in step to the obvious war propaganda’, in fact, quite the opposite.

    Come back when you can say – ‘Been there, seen that, done that!’ – then perhaps you might offer a valid opinion and not sound quite so bigoted as usual.

  77. Frank,

    And does your name calling also refer to those of us who have actually ‘walked the walk’, are we also supposed to join the ‘tut tut’ brigade, and offer condemnation of what is really a childish stunt.

    If they do eventually end up on a charge of some politically correct misbehaviour then what a display of narrow mindedness that would be.

    If the military want men of impeccable manners and behaviour then perhaps they should encourage a few more of those brave graduates to enlist, – but then , of course, we might run short of lawyers and accountants, and that would never do – would it? after all, they are not exactly cannon fodder are they?

  78. Ernest Young –

    ” … and in my opinion, while not being the best thing to do, is excusable.”

    To suggest this behaviour is excusable is to imply that the circumstances which make it excusable are foreseeable, and that those circumstances mitigate the behaviour.

    In which case, those who demand that our young men and women be sent to war, and those who do the sending all bear some responsibility for what happened. They can all step forward and accept their share of the responsibility if what happened is excusable.

    They can also accept their share of the responsibility when the blowback happens and the flag-draped coffins arrive home.

  79. “Come back when you can say – ‘Been there, seen that, done that!’ ”

    Oh, give us a break, Ernest.
    There are countless ex-soldiers around who have “been there, seen that, done that!” more than you, and they have as little hope – or right – to make you shut up as you have with anyone else.

    Either that excuse applies to everyone or to none, and as I know you you would be one of the last people willing to allow, say, the Taleban the excuse of battle fatigue after “being deliberatley shot at, or blown up, with a very real chance of ending up dead” if they did something nasty to British soldiers.

    BTW You totally missed Pete Moore’s point. What’s your excuse?

  80. Ernest

    I agree.

  81. “OK, OK, it’s alright for American and British soliders to urinate on dead people, but just don’t let people find out about it.”

    Must be wonderful to be you, Noel.
    ALL those military who have come back traumatised and needing psychiatric counselling and care…
    IF ONLY the MOD had known about your skills, your coolness and correctness on the battleground; they could have had you running training courses..

    “Sir,
    The men are demoralised and ill disciplined. We really need Colonel Cunningham to do a series of lectures…”

  82. Aw, the poor soldiers needing to urinate on somebody.

    Agit8ed, my services are already booked out with all those Taleban fighters who have come back traumatised and needing psychiatric counselling and care.

    I’m sure you’ll appreciate the strain they are under on the battleground.

  83. Well argued Noel and Pete. All those who tried to make excuses for this pathetic and selfishly idiotic stunt actually demean the forces and the cause that they claim to support.

  84. Noel,

    ‘There are countless ex-soldiers around who have “been there, seen that, done that!” more than you,’

    I’m sure there are, – the only other one who has commented on here so far, was Jaz. I am sure that if there were others they would have had their say on the matter and seen it for what it really was, – the childish behaviour of a few 18-20 year olds, mere juveniles according to you liberals.

    I am not really trying to make excuses for them, just hoping to get a little perspective on the matter in the face of you armchair blowhards who have no experience of combat of any sort, and would probably run a mile if anyone said ‘boo’ to you…

    ‘if they did something nasty to British soldiers.’ You mean like beheading etc.? Which rock have you been hiding under all these years?

    As far as misunderstanding Moore’s point, I would say that he completely misunderstood my orginal 8.28 comment, – but then comprehension is not the strong point for either of you.

  85. Ernest

    Surely that’s what makes threads so lively. When everyone misunderstands each other :)

  86. “Well argued Noel and Pete. All those who tried to make excuses for this pathetic and selfishly idiotic stunt actually demean the forces and the cause that they claim to support.”

    Colm,
    I have deliberately returned to this thread because I believe your statement above is wrong, and all the others who condemn this action out of hand, fail to understand the dynamics of relationships forged in war; when everyone knows their life depends as much on the other man/men, as it depends on their own vigilance and concern for their fellows.

    I have to say I do get quite sick of the moral superiority and smugness exhibited by some on ATW when issues similar to this one are addressed.
    I am going to list points as they occur to me, so here goes.

    1) Any military organisation is a reflection of the society it defends.

    2) America especially, has a high number of new immigrants and people of limited education/ poor and diverse backgrounds serving in its armed forces. Not so many upwardly mobile, wealthy, “old family” Ivy Leaguers will be found amongst them!

    3) In ANY organisation where the threat of violence and death are constantly present, strong bonds tend to be forged amongst participants. This is as true for American and British soldiers as it is for the Police Force , -even IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries. The more that is at stake, the deeper the bonds.

    4)In situations like this, men will overlook certain things which they may not personally approve of, but will overlook because one or some of the wrongdoers may have saved their life the day before. They may habitually perform acts of bravery, or even been the joker who simply boosts morale and helps to make each day more endurable.

    5) It is the role of commanding officers to deal with behaviour under fire, NOT non -combatants or media reporters.
    As in point 1) the military is only a reflection of the society it serves and defends, so before we rush to judgement, we must also accept that if there is a problem, WE are a part of that problem.

    I will further support my argument by pointing out that during WW1 especially any man who wouldn’t fight (Conscientious Objectors) had a hard time of it from the rest of society, and those who deserted or broke down under the stress of battle were considered cowards or “weak”.
    Why?
    Because the tribal instinct kicked in, and there was no room for “armchair-philosophers” or moralistic handwringers. Men under arms have a different set of priorities, and will often overlook actions which in peacetime they would vigorously oppose.

    So ask yourself this Colm, etc.,
    You find yourself as part of a group of squaddies who the day before had been caught up in a fierce fire fight with the Taliban in which one of your group had been blown to pieces, or captured and decapitated after being raped and having their cock cut off, etc.
    Today they come across some dead Taliban, and some of your mates decide it would be a good idea to piss on the bodies.
    You don’t like it, but what would you DO?

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