Unduly Lenient
By Mahons On June 18th, 2012NI Constable Stepehn Caroll was shot dead in 2009 at the age of 48. His killers, dissident Republicans were convicted and sentenced to terms of 25 and 14 years. There has now been an appeal of their sentence as unduly lenient. If the appeal is successful, they could serve more time.
I think the appeal is proper and correct. There should be an aggravading factor in the crime of killing a police officer, and that factor was clearly met in this case. Justice requires a serious review of sentencing when the sentencing is clearly insufficient.
I challenge the ATW community to comment on this particular case (without references dating back to the Battle of the Boyne) and whether they feel the appeal is warranted.
I don’t think that there is such a thing as an appeal of an unduly lenient sentence in the US system?
I think the Courts of Appeal in the States can through refer a case back to the lower courts if it is deemed that sentencing is too lenient.
In this case if it had happened in England I think Brendan McConville would have only gotten a five years more so there isn’t as much problem with that one. The main issue is with John Paul Wootton, who could be released at 35, after serving only 14 years for murder. The problem with increasing Wootton’s sentence is that there has always been an acceptance of greater leniency of crimes committed while a minor.
Phantom – there is, I suppose the most recent notable case involves the Rutgers student who filmed his roomate having gay sex and got a 30 day sentence.
Seamus – It seems the 17 year old’s sentence is the one that stings, since 14 years means what in terms of actual time that will be served? The age is of course a factor, in the US 17 year olds have been tried as adults.
Yes, there ought to be an appeal, and no, there should not be an appeal.
There ought to be an appeal because the 25 and 14 years is insufficient. In fact any sentence short of hanging would be insufficient.
There should not be an appeal because the murder of a state agent should not be an aggravating factor. That presumption implies that working for the state makes one’s life more worthy, and 25 years is already in excess of the average sentence given for the premeditated murder of mere non-state agents.
mahons
I think that what happened there was that he said no to a plea deal and then was sentenced. I am unaware of any ” prosecutorial appeal ” if that is the right phrase.
Pete
A cop’s life is no more valuable than anyone else’s but they are far more vulnerable as they always have to deal with ” bad guys ” in a way that the average person does not.
Pete – well we are talking about a police officer as opposed to a department of motor vehicle clerk (which itself raises the issue of justified homicide), a librarian or a postal worker. The philosophy behind having the murder of a police officer be an aggravating factor is not that the life is more valuable, but rather that the crime is not merely killingthe victim but an attack on society’s very law and order itself.
Mahons -
I’d have thought any offence against person or property might be viewed as an attack on law and order itself.
Pete – Yes, it is. But an attack on a police officer or judge is also considered an attack upon the Justice system itself, and there is a societal interest in treating it as such. It is sort of the same idea as an attack on a head of state for instance.
Phantom – You don’t see it all that much as our Courts in the US (despite tabloid cases) are not known for undue leniency.
Some crimes – one drug dealer killing another, etc – could be a benefit to society.
killing a police officer should be an automatic death penalty
All convictions for murder should carry a genuine life imprisonment sentence. That is what was promised in the UK following the abolition of the death penalty, but it is rarely implemented.
I’ve decided that killing a doughnut muncher should be an automatic death sentence, commuted to life imprisonment.
On the one hand murder is murder. On the other, it’s a shit load of gold-plated pension that tax victims won’t be looted for.
Pete
You might need the assistance of one or more of those ‘doughnut munchers’ one day.
Well I don’t find that Constable Stephen Caroll looted any taxpayer. He spent years in a dangerous job and had only a year or two to go to collect a well-deserved pension when he was shot in the back of the head.
No no Mahons, you are supposed to look on the bright side. The killers saved the taxpayer a fortune in ‘gold plated’ pension money.
Pete
I hope your wife and children need a cop one day, and one doesn’t come…. Oh but that’s right those unworthy scum that have gold plated pensions lay their life on the line every day to protect the grateful like you. and help those even as they are spit on by the likes of you. Imagine that, people that live a life of honor and duty. Two concepts Alien to you.
Life should mean life.
Not only that, but why is there no outcry about other murderers who were let out of prison because of blatant appeasement?
I suppose since he was a catholic, this just shows the catholic community what happens if they have the audacity to serve the whole nation defending all from criminals.
The directors of terrorism should be behind bars as well as their minions, not sitting pontificating about their hyprocrisy and justification for the unjustifiable.
With you Troll…I (unlike others) stood ready to lay down my life against terrorist scum, but of course I am castigated by those who vote for the very scum I was defending against.
To have a successful murder conviction both the Actus Reas and Mens Rea elements of the death have to be however each murder case has different circumstances; i.e. fulfilling the wishes of a terminally ill loved one by putting a pillow over their face, while technically murder, could never be seen through the same prism as, for example, a child killer. Likewise minors have traditionally been treated more leniantly as their is an argument that they are more receptive to external influences.
That’s way it’s not possible to have a one size fits all mandatory sentence for murder. I also don’t think that the life of a peeler is worth more or less than the life of the normal 5’8 and, IMO there should never be a death sentence.
In the case of John Paul Wotton it’s a difficult one to answer in the sense that we don’t know what extent his role was in the killing.
Logical – the first failure, kindly stick to the facts of this case, I am trying to shepard thsi one into a discussion of the actual case.
Paul – in your opinion should there be a greater penalty for say killing the head of state? or targeting justices of the court or prosecutors to chill prosecutions (the mafia does that in Italy for instance).
Mahons,
I think 14 years means 14 years (or actually 11 or 12 I think with time already served). Generally people getting 50/50 remission but I don’t think that applies to a life sentence. It is a life sentence and he must serve at least 14 years of it, whereas if it was a 14 year sentence he must serve at least 7 years of it.
I also don’t really think that the victim’s position (police or otherwise) should dictate the sentence. I also don’t think that the Head of State should be afforded greater standing in law than the citizens they allegedly represent. There should be additional circumstances considered (how violent was the killing, chance of re-offending, was there other criminal behavior that lead to the killing) etc but not who the victims was.
Seamus- thanks on expalinign how a 14 year sentence works there, I wasn’t sure.
A head of state isn’t given a greater standign at law merely by increasing the penalty, and increasign the penalty doesn’t devalue other citizens value. But an attack on the head of state needs more of a deterrent in my mind as it is an attack on society, the public order and the nation.
That’s a difficult one to answer Mahons. That’s why I stated that it’s not possible to have a one size fits all mandatory sentence for murder in the comment above.
There are other ways to provide a deterrent than simply a legal one. If you are willing to kill the Head of State then you probably aren’t going to be put off by a longer prison sentence than if you killed a bum. There are security deterrents etc to prevent that.
I think by giving two different penalties for the same crime because of the nature of the victim (whether its because the victim is a police officer, or the Head of State, or gay, or black etc) is nothing more than the state officially saying those people are worth more than ordinary people.
For what it is worth I am of the opinion that life should mean life but if there is to be tariffs it should be different just because one victim is a peeler and one isn’t.
It is possible and indeed it is morally right to have a one size fits all sentence for murder. That is murder as defined as a deliberate and malicious intent to take life (mercy killing is not malicious). One human life should nt merit greater value than another.
“I also don’t really think that the victim’s position (police or otherwise) should dictate the sentence. I also don’t think that the Head of State should be afforded greater standing in law than the citizens they allegedly represent.”
Mirabile dictu, I agree with Seamus.
Come on, all this stuff about greater sentences for murders of coppers and heads of state (and politicians) is bullshit. It’s just a case of insiders building greater protections for themselves because they can manipulate the law. In the case of coppers, I have no doubt that the extremely influential police union has done deals with the rulng class and Home Office.
In effect, they’re acknowledging that harsher sentences are likely to act as some greater or lesser deterrent to murder, and that’s a protection the ruling class has deliberately removed from everyone else.
Well screw them.
The copper or head of state or politician who warrants a greater protection than anyone else hasn’t been born, in my opinion.
Pete
I’m sure you’d change your mind if Ron Paul was Head of State
Mahons, can you not read?
I said, LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE.
How is that not sticking to the debate?
Also, I asked a rational question, as to why should the scum who killed before have their sentences quashed and these guys have more?
I know you do not like my logic, and others on here, but it is both relevant and fitting.
Colm, well said.
ps, congrats to ITALY ha ha ha ha ha!
Colm – but the murder of a head of state isn’t just murder, it is also a political act and an attack agaisnt the state.
It was bound to happen eventually Pete.
Logical – How can you not read, I was asking for a discussion of the particular crime and punishment.
Mahons,
Firstly, not necessarily. What if Hillary, after Bill did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinsky, had decided to stick a knife in him? Would that have been political?
Also politicians aren’t the State and so attacking them isn’t attacking the State.
Mahons
Well Mahons, I don’t agree with the death penalty, but I do think murder should mean a genuine life prison sentence. I’m not sure how to give extra punishment to the killer of a Head of State. Maybe stick them in a cell listening to Allan’s conspiracy theories, Troll’s war cries and Patty’s Obamabashing for the rest of their lives perhaps
Colm,
You’d have prisoners begging to bring back the death penalty.
Mahons,
‘LIFE MEANS LIFE.’
Get it?
I dealt with the two sentences, and thereafter I was and still am asking as to why these two MERIT an EXTENTION to their sentences when other MASS murderers have had their’s quashed?
Pretty relevant me thinks.
Anf therein lies the rub Colm. Mercy killing is still murder in the eyes of the law. Of course there are mitagating factors but it is still murder.
That’s why there can be no one size fits all, because the factual circumstances surrounding each case will be different.
I think any kind of political motivation for murder ought to be a huge aggravating factor (in Northern Ireland it has bizarrely become a get out of jail free pass).
That applies to targetting police officers in their role as police officers, but it also applies to killing journalists because of their role or killing victims because of their ethnic group.
Seamus- I am not advocating an increased punishment for a politician, but rather a head of state or certin other specifically enumerated people including police, judges and prosecutors. Certain jurisdictions also cosnider attacks on a witness to be deserivng of an increased punishment, and I agree with that as well.
paul, mitagating? lol tch, my first year students know better…
As for republicans, I cited previously on another post the speech from Danny Morrison which was embraced by the electorate of the ira, with the armalite and ballot box, which is still embraced and fervently supported by the majority of catholics.
Sadly, that is a real impediment to progress we all desire.
Ross –
“I think any kind of political motivation for murder ought to be a huge aggravating factor”
Why?
Why should the ability to push people around via politics give anyone a greater protection in law?
Mahons
I think tampering with a trial is a crime and should be punished. So if you kill a witness then you should not only go to prison for the murder but have an additional charge of obstruction of justice. The same could be said for the killing of prosecutors, jurors or judges, and police officers who are in the process of investigating crimes.
But in terms of the charges of murder I think murder is murder and it doesn’t matter if you kill the lowliest man in the street or the Head of State it is still the same crime.
Pete – The offense is against the office and the legal system, in addition to the murder itself.
agreed and if found guilty you should be executed
Mahons -
Crime cannot be committed against an office or a system. This is to be a fetishist.
I recognise the offence of “treason” (and sincerely hope to see the relevent statutes dusted off soon), but that is an offence against the people and their sovereignty. All this “offences against the office/the legal system/the judiciary/etc” is silly.
See we almost agreed there Troll. I don’t agree with the Death Penalty under any circumstances.
seamus, but still you vote for the ira…
WHY?
Hypocrite.
just as well seamy, your ilk would have nobody to vote for.
Cripes.
Troll thinks the president ought to be able to have anyone killed, simply on his say so.
Then he thinks the president ought to be executed for having anyone killed, simply on his say so.
LU -
Not on every thread, please.
Pete – it isn’t silly in Mexico or Italy where organized crime does target the judiciary, police and prosecutors.
pete, why ever not on this thread?
murder is murder.
What is the difference?
Are there good murderers and bad murderers?
Murder is the worst crime someone can inflict on a fellow human being. That people on here can support and make excuses for individuals involved in the direction of mass murder is despicable.
No decent person can excuse that.
If yo want to complain about hypocrisy, then go ahead, but do NOT expect me to follow the immoral ambiguity.
Pete-
Victims of politically motivated murders are not restricted to those who have the “ability to push people around”- bombing a gay bar like Douglas Copeland did or trying to kill cartoonists who draw Mohammed is also part of the same process.
It should be an aggravating factor because killing someone for politics is a fundamental attack on everyone’s rights to live in a free country- not merely on the victims.
Mahons,
organised criminals, be it in NI, Italy, Mexico or wherever all want to remove the teeth of the prosecuting forces.
It is simple.
If you appease criminals and terrorists, then they insist on weakening the same forces, alongwith the judicial system.
That is exactly what has happened here, and in every other jurisdiction.
Ross
Killing anyone strikes at the heart of a free society, it doesn’t need to be motivated by anything to do so.
then why do you support it seamy?
you vote for ‘the armalite and the ballot box’, just a little bit hypocritical.
Seamus- I don’t think someone losing their temper and beating someone to death for looking at them funny has wider implications other than to the victim for society as a whole in the same way that, for example murdering a newspaper editor because he criticises a cause does.
I disagree. It does have wider implications for society. For one it makes people who live and work in the area concerned about it. People don’t feel safe and secure which has massive implications for society.
Should it be considered a worse crime to kill a man because he is a politician you don’t like than to kill an old woman because you want to steal her purse ?
should it be considered a crime to vote for someone in charge of people who do either?
I don’t have a clue what you might be referring to LU
hope you are doing ok Colm.
sorry, I meant, HOPE YOU ARE DOING OK COLM.
I’m doing fine LU, thank you very much. I’m glad you asked louder. I didn’t hear you first time
Good. Hope things are settled and you and your family have some peace.
Thanks LU. I am currently living at my parents house. It’s strange being here alone and knowing it’s not temporary, but that’s the normal passage of life and death. It happens to us all. I’m fine though, thanks for asking
no worries, just remember, you will always have the memories to cherish, and nobody can steal them away…
jelly and ice-cream anyone?
If the wussie European Union had any balls (and that encludes the UK) they’d approve the “Death Penalty” and the Brits could terminate the vermin by pumping their arterial systems full of a Potassium Chloride solution !
Until then I guess we’ll just have to way a few more years till the Islamic jihad succeeds and Sharia law dominates the European justice system.
Beheadings are so messy.
Support of the death penalty means support of execution of innocent people.
Because sometimes wrong conclusions are reached, sometimes people lie, and often juries include idiots.
Outside of war, or outside of say a hostage situation, the death penalty is off the table.
This is precisely why the death penalty can never be justified:
http://www.u.tv/News/Last-death-row-man-cleared-of-murder/e10b9cfb-6785-4b97-9812-6d65e73ff03e