YOUNG AMERICANS?
By David Vance On July 17th, 2012I watched this video of a flashmob at a Walmart in Jacksonville. Is this what constitutes acceptable behaviour by young BLACK Americans?
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Africa wins again.
The overall picture seems pretty grim. Thomas Sowell has a short piece today which is very worrying. An excerpt:
He later talks of “the small but widely spreading race riots”. In the light of what seems a deteriorating situation, Obama, Sharpton et al appear all the more culpable with their race baiting.
Walmart can easily replace some looted goods, but it happens to small businesses and homes all the time. Anyone who lives near blacks clearly needs to be well armed.
Be careful. You live in a country where speech rights are diminished and where you can assume that some castrati from the police is reading every keystroke.
Black flash mobs have become a dangerous pattern in the Philadelphia area – not to rob so much as to mindlessly attack – its a a new virulent strain of the old “wilding” fad.
I think it comes from the fact that we now have 40% unemployment for black young men – a new high thanks to the Obama crack team of job destroyers – and the fact that Obama routinely demagogues the rich, white man, capitalism and business in general
The big press ( including the useless Fox ) clearly under reports such incidents, including the violent ones.
The MSM had no problem over reporting – and misreporting – the Travon Martin case – remember the “white Hispanic?” whatever that is?
The MSM is agenda driven. And its a left-wing agenda. end of story.
Phantom
I take your point but I simply raise a question.
Phantom -
Yes, I assume that.
Actually now that I think of it, Fox News did earlier in the year report one incident where two white newspaper reporters in Virginia were attacked by a wilding gang when driving through the town.
And the newspaper did not report even this attack!
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2012/05/08/bill-oreilly-bias-crime-cover-virginia-grows
This is what I refer to above. Bill O’Reilly did some solid reporting on this ” man bites dog ” incident where the newspaper declined to report on a mob attack on its own employees.
I take back my snap at Fox News above.
These guys would be better repatriated to their ancestrol lands to swing from the trees!
Personally I don’t see what the problem is.
After all. if enough people want to do something or make it socially acceptable, why not?
Values change and evolve. If young black
AfricansAmericans who form a sizeable chunk of the population, want to have a little fun or express themselves differently from others, why not?Was anybody killed? Was the building burned down or looted?
Societies chaaaange Guys!
Ask Frank. Ask Colm. Ask Tasarov or Noel
C’mon,
Lighten up.
All cultures are equal after all. Western centric values should not necessarily be seen as better.
Why isn’t the behavior shown here just as legitimate as the behavior in say a Finnish town market?
On the race issue, there is a big difference between the American POV and the European/British POV.
If we set aside the Progressive Democrat penchant for racial demagoguery, Americans don’t define the nation by race – America is an idea, not a race and most people have come here from other places.
“Repatriation to ancestral lands” as British Bernard suggests is nonsensical. If we start sending people back to their “roots” America will be empty!
Besides, Black American history is a rich integral piece of American’s identity. Remember, we did fight a Civil War. The Union was kept together.
BU
But if America is empty then there will be no carbon emissions and therefore there won’t be any American contribution to the global warming.
So its good.
Besides I want to see what happens when Troll gets ” sent back ” to Europe.I’d pay to watch that homecoming.
The MSM should report honestly on these flash mobs.
THen, the MSM should honestly report the high unemployment for Black young men (40%)
Perhaps then, the Progressive Dems – and that means Obama, in particular – will stop with the racial demogaguery.
And maybe then the Progressive Dems . will admit that they have decimated the Black communities with their policies. first, LBJ’s War on Poverty, which rewarded women on welfare if no father was in residence and now, with Obama’s War on Capitalism.
not going to happen – but I can dream.
Patty,
Personally I was “tongue in cheeking.”
I am far more interested in how those who argue for either freedom of cultural expression or personal freedom, or a rejection of traditional western Judaeo/Christian values could deny people the right to express themselves how they see fit.
I don’t believe in looting for example, but some may say it’s a legitimate way for oppressed and disadvantaged minorities to express displeasure at the system.
Who’s to judge?
Agitated – I knew you were tongue-in-cheek! I was commenting on British Bernard.
I thought you might be cleverly and obliquely referencing back to the Arab Spring demos. – the ones void of any female participation – the ominous signs of ultimate Brotherhood takeover — that Westerners, here on this site, thought was simply a quaint reflection of the different “cultural norms,” different from Judeo/Christian values.
I can’t see the video. It says “This is private”
“I don’t believe in looting for example, but some may say it’s a legitimate way for oppressed and disadvantaged minorities to express displeasure at the system.
Who’s to judge?”
The courts.
Colm,
Seen that. Let me fix it. I’m just back from a flashmob at Lidl, not the same thing
Patty,
the liberated western women who fight for their rights are strangely silent when it comes to condemning the treatment of women in Muslim societies.
Here we have a clear example of where Western liberalism with its emphasis on personal freedom and tolerance have painted themselves into a corner, and are afraid to condemn practices which enslave other women..
“The courts.”
Using relative values or absolute values Frank?
If enough people feel it’s okay to congregate in a big store, surely the law should be changed?
Walmart is owned by the 1%
Why shouldn’t the 99% have full rights in the store also?
Exactissimo Phantom,
Now as you know, I believe that democracy means that politicians debate the big issues with the people, and at the end of that process they formulate policy. I suppose what I should have included is that I was assuming a society in which the majority adhere to a shared value system.
But for those who believe in multiculturalism and equal rights, they MUST respect the recognised or newly formulated cultural values of other societies/cultures, because on what basis can they refuse the rights of minorities to practice their beliefs?
Wasn’t such disruptive in store hooliganism displayed by cheese eating French anti Israel boycotting types a while back?
Stores are a public space. Like Zuccotti Park, they must be occupied, and ravaged by whoever wants to do it.
There are alot of stupid comments on this thread from those who ought to know better.
Ps – David. Thanks for fixing the video.
“There are alot of stupid comments on this thread from those who ought to know better.”
Colm,
As you should know by now, I am not anti Gay.
I don’t like “in yer face” gaydom, but neither do I agree with discriminating against a person simply because they are gay, or doing what some Muslims want to do, i.e. throw large stones at them until they are dead, saw/cut their heads off etc.
Like many people I am against gay marriage because Christianity doesn’t allow for it, there is no historical precedent for it, and I still (despite Frank’s best efforts) think that by allowing gay marriage we will be opening the floodgates to other interpretations of marriage that will make a nonsense of the whole thing.
So what else was stupid?
“Why shouldn’t the 99% have full rights in the store also?”
I think it’s something called “private property” and “law and order” – socialist progressives have trouble with the former and ignore the latter to achieve their goals.
MSM promote the Socialist Progressive dimension so this disregard for private property and law and order does not interest them – in fact, it is scientific Marxism in their blind eyes with the disenfranchised getting only what is due them.
Property rights are a hassle. Theft, even. Let the kids have some fun.
Agit8ed
Please point out where I mentioned anything about gays. I was referring to your claim that because cerain named people and I was one of them don’t happen to exactly match your Christian standpoint that we must therefore by default approve of this sort of yobbery.
Colm: he and Phantom are yoking around.
//I take your point but I simply raise a question.//
Simply raise a question? Be a man and admit you were making a racist statement.
No need to be afraid, you’ve plenty of company it appears.
Are you a MSM mouthpiece now, Noel. By labeling his question “racist” you obviously seek to shut up the conversation…..let them loot…who cares why? afterall, Walmart is part of the 1% as Phantom pointed out and the 99% should get whats rightfully theirs even if they have to take it….
black young male unemployment at 40%?
black families decimated by liberal policies rewarding fatherlessness?
Obama exploiting black misery by class warfare and racist demagoguery?
who cares? says you.
Hundreds of blacks laying waste to a store and the Left is still worried if whitey is being racist.
What is racist about the statement?
Please include your detailed thoughts about the similar ( worse ) incidents in Virginia, Philadelphia, Milwaukee and other places.
If these acts were all done by mobs of ” white rednecks ” there would be endless coverage of the matter, and dissection of the race / class of the perpetrators.
Whitey is always racist to some. It is original sin to themmuns.
//If these acts were all done by mobs of ” white rednecks ” there would be endless coverage of the matter, //
Yeah sure, you believe that in such a case David would shout it out from ATW under the header ” Is this what constitutes acceptable behaviour by young WHITE Americans?” ??
That’s the answer to your question.
Agit8ed,
““The courts.”
Using relative values or absolute values Frank?”
Using the law. We have societies of laws and your idea that society legislates, or even chooses, its values is simply mistaken.
In any case you’ve been wrestling that particular strawman of yours for quite a while now (and it is apparently winning). Why don’t you put it down. It’s tired.
That is speculation.
Esp as ” white rednecks ” have not been doing this.
This behavior is far more widespread than the major incidents mentioned here. And it ain’t the rednecks, the Hassidics or the Presbyterians who are doing it.
( Google will crash now, as the usual suspects are searching to see if there are some incidents of whites doing this )
//who cares? says you.//
Patty, I told you just a few hours ago that you should I quote what I really said and not the ravings in your head.
Still a bit above you, I see.
//( Google will crash now, as the usual suspects are searching to see if there are some incidents of whites doing this )//
Only those with ultra-short memories. People of all skin colour went on a rampage in various English cities just last year.
You really think if there was a generally white mob somewhere – and in that case there was – that David would pounce on it to scream how terrible these “WHITES” are?
“t because cerain named people and I was one of them don’t happen to exactly match your Christian standpoint that we must therefore by default approve of this sort of yobbery.”
Obviously I am linking two issues,
young black Americans having impromptu “meets” in supermarkets, and the push for gay marriage in Britain.
What I seem to be getting from Frank and you and others is that “we need to move on”. We need to recognise that “times are changing” and that people have rights to express themselves.
So what I am trying to establish is on what basis then , are the new values and changes to be established?
If popular demand, than why shouldn’t young black Americans have a loud, noisy meeting in a supermarket?
If on recognising the rights of minorities to practice their cultures, why not genital mutilation, arranged marriages, witchcraft or certain forms of slavery (Restavek springs to mind.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8390000/8390444.stm)
If you and the others are going to insist on changes, on what value system will you argue those changes, and how can you be sure that everybody else will agree?
Noel Cunningham -
Yeah sure, you believe that in such a case David would shout it out from ATW under the header ” Is this what constitutes acceptable behaviour by young WHITE Americans?” ??
So far, DV’s consistency on the matter hasn’t been tested, has it?
Go on YouTube and you can seek and find rampages by white mobs (particularly in football match settings) but it would be wrong to claim that they are rampaging because they are white, that there is something about having white skin that makes them violent. The same applies here. This is an inexcusable thuggish rampage by a flashmob in a black area made up of friends and groups of friends who are blacks and associate together – but nobody claims that this is acceptable as David’s question in his post suggests, and it would be wrong to imply that this is how all young black Americans behave.
Why not just condemn this behaviour and hope that the yobs will be made to pay for their crimes rather than turn this into a “oh look that’s what black people do. They are different to us white people” – nonsense.
Noel Cunningham -
“People of all skin colour went on a rampage in various English cities just last year.”
In most areas where there was rioting and looting, it was overwhelmingly done by blacks.
Noel
This is a thread about Americans I believe.
Colm
This is an increasingly common thing in urban America and it is not the whites or Latins or Asians that are choosing to engage in it.
Trust me on this.
Agit8ed
“What I seem to be getting from Frank and you and others is that “we need to move on”. We need to recognise that “times are changing” and that people have rights to express themselves.”
No you’re not getting it from me, Colm and others. Possibly you are getting it from Alpha Centauri. Maybe you are having a stroke. But the only one here who has even used the phrase ‘people have rights to express themselves’ in this context is you.
Agit8ed
On the issue of ‘marraige’ Common sense and intelligence is what I base my values system on. I judge people by how they behave not what they are technically. If 2 individuals love each other, respect each other and make each other happy and harm no-one else but enjoy a contented life together I think that’s great and moral and good and something to be celebrated in this world. You on the other seem to base your values on simply judging what gender the 2 people are.
“Why not just condemn this behaviour and hope that the yobs will be made to pay for their crimes rather than turn this into a “oh look that’s what black people do. They are different to us white people” – nonsense.”
Some prefer an opinion to hand-wringing.
Yeah sure, you believe that in such a case David would shout it out from ATW under the header ” Is this what constitutes acceptable behaviour by young WHITE Americans?” ??
Actually Knowall,
David has posted many a time about British youths attacking democtacy and capitalism.
But then,
he has a value system..
Still waiting for you to call me…
BOOO!!
Pete
Ignorant and incorrect bigotry is an opinion – clearly that’s what you prefer.
//Noel
This is a thread about Americans I believe.//
I wasn’t talking about America or Britain or anywhere else. I was talking about David, a very Northern Irish phenomenon.
ok, I was just played the Devik’s advocate a little with my ‘swinging from trees’ comment
“Besides I want to see what happens when Troll gets ” sent back ” to Europe.I’d pay to watch that homecoming.”
lol Phantom, that depends on which country he gets sent back to, if I recall he was both Italian and Irish heritage and pretty sure he’s got a Dutch surname!
btw it’s annoying not being able to edit out typos after posting.
//David has posted many a time about British youths attacking democtacy and capitalism.//
Now let me guess in how many of them he screamed about “WHITES”.
Well said, Colm.
There have been plenty of times when ” white America ” has been criticized for the things that they do. Ditto ” the bankers “, ” the cops “, ” the government “, etc.
There is no racism in pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Phantom
But the criticism in those cases is not claiming that they are behaving badly because they have white skin.
Take a Sociology class at a US university
The entire semester will be a criticism of those with white skin.
//There is no racism in pointing out the bleeding obvious.//
It’s only bleeding obvious to a bleeding racist.
Where some people see a rioting mob, others pounce on their skin colour so they can then make inference about their “race”.
They could just as well make inferences about their level of education, home situation, jobs or joblessness, social stratum, etc. But, no, they see only race.
Colm -
Call me ignorant all you like, but what is “incorrect bigotry”? My opinions are not “correct”? Must they be “corrected”? Must I “correct” my opinions?
Yes, I’m a bigot, and if more people were bigoted like me Western civilisation wouldn’t be turning more barbarous.
Pete
Western civilisation is not turning more barbarous. In fact it is becoming more pacific and safe. A mixture of liberal progress, free market capitalism and sensible State planning is ensuring that all of us have longer happier and healthier lives than at any other time in our history. You won’t believe it, but it is true. You are less likely to be die young or be harmed by violence than any of your ancestors. Civilisation is thriving and doing fine.
“On the issue of ‘marraige’ Common sense and intelligence is what I base my values system on. I judge people by how they behave not what they are technically. If 2 individuals love each other, respect each other and make each other happy and harm no-one else but enjoy a contented life together I think that’s great and moral and good and something to be celebrated in this world. You on the other seem to base your values on simply judging what gender the 2 people are.”
“Common sense and intelligence is what I base my values system on.”
Are you saying that Islam has no room for commonsense or intelligence?? Are you arguing that all the other peoples of the earth who do not/would not countenance gay marriage lack commonsense or intelligence?!!
Or are you saying that within our post Christian western culture, with its emphasis on those fine Christian values of “Lurve, acceptance and forgiveness” we should now accept Gay marriage?
‘Cos it seems to me that the non “Post Christian world” would disagree with you….
Frank,
you’re right!
I can’t distinguish between a stroke and Alpha Centauri!!
Help me Frank..
By answering my question about how YOU would determine social values..
Noel Cunningham -
“Where some people see a rioting mob, others pounce on their skin colour so they can then make inference about their “race”.”
It was not a rioting mob. It was a rioting black mob. The hundreds of blacks, who deliberately gathered in an exclusionary black mob, made the first racist statement themselves.
If a white man or woman had been in the way they’d have been attacked, because it was a specifically black action by hundreds of blacks acting in black solidarity. The phenomenon of black mobs gathering to attack whites is becoming more and more common.
You cannot disagree, of course, because Thomas Sowell recognises it in the first comment of the thread, where I link to his article today, and it would be racist to disagree with a black man, no doubt.
Noel, wakey wakey. People have seen through your Marxist, race-baiting bullshit. Calling people “racist” doesn’t work any longer. It’s meaningless drivel now.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/8/mayor-talks-tough-to-black-teens-after-flash-mobs/
Some black leaders are far more honest than some white liberals are on this matter.
Colm -
What is “incorrect bigotry”?
Agit8ed
I have no hesitation in saying that anyone or any group who think that the value or morality of a relationship should be determined primarily by the biological factors rather than the behavioural factors is wrong.
”
Noel Cunningham, on July 17th, 2012 at 8:31 pm Said:
//David has posted many a time about British youths attacking democtacy and capitalism.//
Now let me guess in how many of them he screamed about “WHITES”.
Well said, Colm.”
Well said, Colm, Well said Petr, Well said Paul, Well said Frank….”
WHY would David single out WHITES in a predominantly WHITE society??
And anyway, in that context he doesn’t usually mention skin colour, only their actions
Pete
My typo. ‘incorrect’ was supposed to have the word ‘assertions’ after it. There is no such thing as incorrect bigotry.
“And anyway, in that context he doesn’t usually mention skin colour, only their actions”
Finally, agit8ed you are beginning to get it !
“I have no hesitation in saying that anyone or any group who think that the value or morality of a relationship should be determined primarily by the biological factors rather than the behavioural factors is wrong.”
Good!
First time you’ve said it, whereas people like me have long argued that when Islam becomes a major – perhaps dominant force in Britain, gays WILL be hunted down and killed, but the liberalists here have shouted us down…
But I still argue that there can be no such thing as gay marriage. The difference is that I would be content to oppose -not stone you..
//Calling people “racist” doesn’t work any longer.//
Just for the record: I didn’t expect my view that David’s post is racist to work anything or keep anyone quiet.
On the contrary. I happen to think racism, anti-semitism, anti-Muslim etc etc. are not particularly evil things. Silly, ugly and IMO a terrible waste of good brain cells (in some cases) they are, but they are all present in the world and on this site to a certain extent and probably will be till the end of the chapter.
They need to be voiced, and I think it’s grovelling cowardice on David’s part – after picking out their skin colour under a heading suggesting they aren’t even Americans – to claim he was asking an innocent question. Thus your “if more people were bigoted like me Western civilisation wouldn’t be turning more barbarous” is refreshingly honest and interesting. If there are arguments for racist, anti-semitic or anti-Muslim positions, then I want to hear them.
//Some black leaders are far more honest than some white liberals are on this matter.//
Phantom, I hope you don’t think that’s an argument.
Agit8ed,
“By answering my question about how YOU would determine social values..”
I don’t determine social values. Nobody does. You may as well ask me how I determine the price of property in London.
Societal values in so far as they exist at all are simply whatever most people who are around at the time manage to agree about.
An incident all the way across the country in Portland Oregon for Christs sake
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/flash_mob_hits_another_portlan.html
Note the detail that the article leaves out. We can pretend that this is not happening, or we can confront the issue.
Good post.
Noel
The mayor of a very big city where these events are happening is speaking a hard truth and you assiduously hiding from that same truth, for reasons I can’t understand.
Problems don’t get fixed until they’re faced.
Noal,
I believe that POTUS Obama champions the rights of Black Americans, and that his one time church leader believes that the Constitution was “framed by white men for white men??”
“Societal values in so far as they exist at all are simply whatever most people who are around at the time manage to agree about.”
So societal values are determined by the majority (at the time?)
Was this always true Frank?
When dear old St. Patrick came and dwelt in Ireland was this true??
OR were you referring to St Coppout?
Phantom
Of course there is a problem and it should be addressed and where such behaviour is manifested in situations where people are gathering in specific racial groups then it is not wrong to point that out or to say there is a problem involving black youngsters or black people in certain geographical localities. I don’t believe in censoring or downplaying such things , just like the recent phenomenon of Pakistani men in groups grooming and abusing white girls in the UK .
Agit8ed
That is not by any stretch the first time I have condemned the attitudes of Muslim or any other religous groups. I don’t like any organised religions or hierarchical religous power structures. I think they are all to varying degrees intolerant and bigoted. I respect personal faith where it is genuinely personal, not when it seeks in any way to force it’s codes on everyone else . If Christians or any other church groups don’t want to recognise the sacrament of marraige as being applicable to same sex couples that is fine within the context of their own entities and they should never be compelled by the state to change their own rules but if lawfully elected governments wish to extend secular civil marraige contracts to same sex couples it is none of the church’s business.
Agit8ed,
“So societal values are determined by the majority (at the time?)”
They aren’t ‘determined’ at all. They simply emerge from the values of millions of individuals trying to get by in the same spaces. They are no more chosen than is the resale price of a second hand car.
The root of your difficulty is (and I’m only guessing) that you have a need to believe that some values are *objectively correct* and therefore timeless. Lots of people think like that (I used to) but nobody has yet come up with an objective system of values, other than simply declaring their own beliefs to be right and pounding the table.
So whether values are objective are relative makes absolutely no practical difference – either they are, and we don’t know what they are, or they aren’t, and the question is meaningless. FWIW I personally find that the notion that values are relative meshes better with reality. Feel free to believe otherwise
[And no, before you start up again, that does NOT mean anyone can do whatever the hell they want, and nor does it mean all value systems and all cultures must be considered equally good (how could it? if there is no objective value system then nothing can be objectively declared as good as anything else, either).]
Typo there, ‘objective are relative’ should be ‘objective or relative’
“Using the law. We have societies of laws and your idea that society legislates, or even chooses, its values is simply mistaken.
In any case you’ve been wrestling that particular strawman of yours for quite a while now (and it is apparently winning). Why don’t you put it down. It’s tired.”
Sorry about the delay, got called out.
WHO decides what the law is, Frank?
In 17th century England was a poll taken to determine the role of the King, or did a few men get together and say,
“Hey! Our King is supposed to be on our side! Why’s he supporting Catholic Spain?|!”
Question:
“How many straws were required so that all England got to express their opinion?”
Or, were the determined actions of a (Christian) few enough to determine the issue?
“[And no, before you start up again, that does NOT mean anyone can do whatever the hell they want, and nor does it mean all value systems and all cultures must be considered equally good (how could it? if there is no objective value system then nothing can be objectively declared as good as anything else, either).]”
That’s funny Frank,and I really mean it.
First time I felt I was dealing with a person rather than a brain…
SO, I am guessing that somewhere along the line, you saw an inconsistency or problem in your previously held world view that caused you to change?
As I did over my previously accepted view on homosexuality??
“You won’t believe it, but it is true. You are less likely to be die young or be harmed by violence than any of your ancestors. Civilisation is thriving and doing fine.”
Nonsense Colm! Doesn’t the calendar end later this year, before the 2nd coming?
BB
I’m still waiting for my first one of the year
“but if lawfully elected governments wish to extend secular civil marraige contracts to same sex couples it is none of the church’s business.”
Lawfully elected by whom and according to what, Colm?
I hope you accept that I am not trying to trip you up or anything else, but you are arguing your case from a Christian or post Christian viewpoint. That is at variance with the Islamic viewpoint or many other cultural viewpoints. Islam is not the only culture that is anti gay or gay marriage.
http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/origins-of-male-homosexuality.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/23/homophobia-africa-gay-rights
Frankly I am unable to find any clear evidence that homosexual marriage has been practiced anywhere by any society.
I CAN find evidence that homosexuality has been accepted, even revered by some cultures, but that is all.
BB, the calendar does indeed end later this year. On December 31st in fact. Then you have to buy a new one
“I’m still waiting for my first one of the year
”
Funny,
Ha Ha! I’m trying to laugh!
But doesn’t really address the question.
“The root of your difficulty is (and I’m only guessing) that you have a need to believe that some values are *objectively correct* and therefore timeless.”
I’ve been thinking about your observation Frank, and my honest answer is
that I can’t find a way round accepting that if A is true, B can’t be.
If black is black, white can’t also be black.
Which is also why although I believe in Christianity I still have questions, but they are are questions of clarification rather than outright refutation.
I believe in (Biblical) Christian values, but that’s not to say they can’t change in form, but not essence.
Let me ask you Frank, do you believe that human nature has changed in essence or form??
Colm, that’s just not healthy!!!
Even Santa empties his bags once a year, and under my X-mas tree, the dirty fecker!!!
Agit8ed
Go and see my last comment on the ‘logical case against gay marraige’ post
You don’t need Google to find similar incidents Phantom. The phenomenon of ‘flash mobs’ are homologous with ‘steaming’which I personally witnessed at the Notting Hill Carnival some years ago. Both these activities seem to be prominant among young black predominantly male youths.
The concept of ‘steaming’ however has its origins in soccer violence which, at least here in Europe, seems to be prominant among young white predominantly male youths.
All are equally heinous acts which deserve jail time.
“All are equally heinous acts which deserve jail time.”
WHY?
If a lot of youngsters think it’s okay, why shouldn’t it be?
On what grounds do we decide that the actions of a large number of people is wrong?
Agit8ed,
“SO, I am guessing that somewhere along the line, you saw an inconsistency or problem in your previously held world view that caused you to change?”
Yes. At the time I thought it was important or at least useful when arguing from a minority position (which, in a 90+% Catholic country, was my usual position
to be able to prove your case in some objective manner. In other words I thought that where two people disagree over a moral question then one person must be right and the other must be wrong, and that if you couldn’t say that then why even debate it. And like you I had the misunderstanding that relativism implied that any opinion had to be considered as good as any other, and ‘anything goes’, so rejected it for that reason.
Also, to your point about if we change the meaning marriage then why don’t we simply change everything anyone objects to, and allow looting in stores etc: One of the few “conservative” principles I subscribe to is ‘Chesterton’s Gate’ (see http://stuartbuck.blogspot.co.uk/2004/05/chesterton_14.html) – briefly this is the notion that you do not remove a long standing precedent or tradition unless you understand why it is there, and have a good reason to get rid of it. All of your ‘slippery slope’ examples fail that test, but allowing gay marriage doesn’t.
Frank,
I am tired and ready for bed. Your statement deserves more thought on my part, but
thanks for being more subjective/personal than you usually are. I will chew on your words.
Goodnight.
It isn’t wrong Agit8ed, of course not. All groups and individuals have the right to do what they wish. If a large group of people agree to rampage along the street stabbing beating and killing men women children , babies, pensioners etc – of course they have the right to do so and it would be unfair and censorious to prevent them or seek to curtail them in any way. I would however only draw the line at one thing. If 2 members of the murderous group want to sneak into a registry office and get married they better be boy and girl. There’s only so much freedom of expression a civilised society can allow !
Goodnight
Good night Colm.
Sleep well.
When it involves theft and/or violence against others?
Who decides it’s theft rather than redistribution of wealth?
Wouldn’t YOU punch a man on the nose if he were trying to stop you taking home a liberated television??
The Courts
That’s an idiotic question.
There have been several instances of violent flash mobs, and they have often times involved black youths who should be arrested when they commit a crime. As should their counterparts of any color engaged in illegal acts.
But the post’s question – is this acceptable behavior for young black Americans is clearly answered “no.”
And of course the follow up question – is posting the question in such a race-baiting way acceptable behavior for a middle-aged white Northern Irelander- the answer is also “no.”
” Several ” instances?
” Several ” .
Yeah.
Do you have the statistics? I’ll be happy to read them.
This might be a start. There are more small incidents incl right here in NYC that are not shown here
http://violentflashmobs.com/
That list indicates a lot, though I am uncertain of the sourcing and am not interested in checking out each instance. It still isn’t grounds for the initial comment.
I have spot checked the sourcing
It includes local TV and surveillance videos from multiple incidents / multiple sources
This is news to many since major media are lowballing reporting of such incidents
What a load of crap
you see your programmed that when an observation about a fact and a factor that is very relevant. Race is very important factor in these crimes and not only needs to be pointed out, but discussed honestly.
First your more upset that the obvious race issue was brought up by a non american that has more balls and honesty than the average member of the american press.
Why does that offend you Mahons?
This is no longer a random occurrence, it is a trend. It is also being encourage by the lack outrage from black leaders. Where is Jessie and Al?
We have lost a generation of inner city black youths, less than 50% graduate high school and 92% are raised by either just a Mother or a Grandmother. It’s a recipe for disaster,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYcm9xywAeA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
One of a number of NYC incidents that are not on the above list ( surveillance video )
There are many more, for those with eyes to see
We’ve lost more than one generation, though I don’t exclusively lay the blame at the feet of all black people. And I don’t think anyone would suggest that criminal behavior is acceptable behavior.
A trend? I doubt it. I don’t think the numbers support such a conclusion. Certainly more common an occurrence than I thought after reading Phantom’s source (though I am not sure even that was race specific).
In my day this used to be called wilding, and there was no instant social media or cell phones to help make matters worse.
Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are documented race baiters who thrive on discord, I wouldn’t look to them for any solutions.
Phantom – Interesting, did that clip contain a claim that such behavior was acceptable? I haven’t been so outraged by a group of rioting thugs since white Penn State Students rioted over Joe Paterno (credit to one of the folks who commented on your clip).
in the 1950s the inner city black community was made up of families. The majority of which wanted only one thing. An equal opportunity to start a business or chase their dream whith equality.
What they got was broken homes and handouts. That is the socialist legacy of government directed life. Those are the bitter fruits of the so called great society programs of LBJ
Amazing how good they had it until LBJ.
Welfare, in the US, UK and other places has destroyed an awful lot. The culture of work in much of the black community for one thing. Bill Cosby and others have spoken extensively on this.
Bill Cosby saying what white liberals can’t bring themselves to say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZve73KQpQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Mahons you know I’m not saying they had it good and it’s comments like that that show why I’m disappointed in your willingness to act like an adult, I don’t believe you to be just a slogan spouting lefty. but lately that’s all you do.
When the people that you support were doing everything they could to defeat the civil rights movement Conservative were walking hand and hand with king.
King didn’t want handouts and Welfare, he didn’t want anything from anyone else but a level playing field, but after your side lost the civil rights fight. You corrupted it with handouts instead of hands up.
Which conservatives marched with King!? I never heard of this.
The Civil Rights movement was largely a coalition of blacks and northern white liberals. Conservatives largely opposed King. At the time many were states rights rednecks.
Troll thinks we share his amnesia. Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) were opposed to Civil Rights, but neither I nor any liberals supported them. And conservatives did not walk hand in hand with Martin Luther King, see for example Barry Goldwater.
And Ron Paul , who some think is conservative
And Reagan?
And all of them.
Newt was right on this when he said that Civil Rights was an accomplishment of liberals. Conservatives really played no part in it. They opposed King, who they regarded as a troublremaker. Now that he is safely dead, they claim to like him and they pretend to speak for him.
They lie.
Bill Cosby is a great American. He is as baffled by what is happening to young black people as anyone else. Follow Phantom’s link and you will see other vids on the same topic by other black guys.
They destroy the myth that the whites exploit the blacks, that there is a lack of opportunity or that whites owe the blacks for their wealth.
One of my favourite Will Smith movies “The Pursuit of Happiness” shows what a man can achieve, and those are the men I admire -regardless of colour.
Yep.
That’s a good movie, based on a real story, by the way.
You can complain about your lot in life, or you can spend that time changing your lot in life. Especially in the US.
Not that there is any evidence that the Flash Mobs consist of the socially disadvantaged either. A lot of the bad incidents have been caused by college students in their huge numbers. And a lot of it long precedes the recent phenomenon of ” flash mobs ”
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-04-22/news/mn-57447_1_atlanta-college
‘Flash’ mobs has a different meaning over here.
Not that it matters much.
I remember some Americans shaking with laughter when I talked about “knocking someone up”..
- Newt Gingrich, January 4, 1995