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and the difference is?

By Mike Cunningham On November 18th, 2012

In the present somewhat amateur attempts at mass assassination by the terrorists of Hamas, and the more qualified and targeted killing responses by the Israeli Air Force, I have noticed a somewhat telling similarity in the reporting of the conflict, not only from the entirely-predictable BBC (Israelis….really nasty, brutal and bad); and the Palestinians (noble, hard done-by and forlornly waging a war against a brutal oppressor): but also from such as Sky, CNN and others.

Let me tell you a story, and see if it sounds feasible!

You are living in a country which has been at war for over four years, your Nation’s leaders have made some really bad judgements, but there is still an overwhelming support for the war to be fought, and won. Your Armed forces, alongside your Allies, have crossed the narrow waters which separate your lands from the Occupied Continent; landed successfully along a broad beachhead, and have broken through heavy defences, and are making headway towards the enemy’s borders. Your Eastern Allies, who indeed have suffered more than any other are moving ever westwards, seeking revenge. The nightly raids, the incessant terror-bombing of your cities and towns, which destroyed so much, and killed so many, is now but a distant memory, because your Country’s bombers are heading outwards at night, along with your Allies’ bombers during the day.

You live in a quiet street in a West London suburb called Chiswick. You have heard the enemy bombers as they drone menacingly overhead, you know when to take cover, or hasten to the shelter areas. The air-raid sirens’ wail is still well-remembered, and your relatives have drilled it into your head that any warning is better than none at all. So you are as relaxed as is possible, as there are no alarms, or warning noises, or indeed official broadcasts or warnings. You have no warning before being blown into smithereens, along with two others, together with 22 injured; the explosion also demolishes 11 houses, and seriously damages a further 22. The crater measures 30 feet across, and is 8 foot deep. You are the first victims of the V2 ballstic missile, the V standing for  Verwaltungswaffen, or retaliation weapon. Boosted by a sixty-five-second explosive burn from an rocket engine, the V2 soared some fifty miles into the stratosphere in a parabolic arc which ended with the detonation of just under a ton of explosives upon impact. There was no defence, as the missile was faster than the speed of sound; no defence, as radar could not possibly interrogate the path of this terror weaponry. If your Nations’ main enemy can manufacture enough missiles, they can strike anywhere. The only means of retaliation is to destroy the means of missile production.

If Hamas gets a new delivery of more sophisticated Iranian weaponry, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem will come under daily bombardment, despite Jerusalem being the third holiest place for all Muslims.

Is Israel willing to move? Is Hamas suicidal enough to continue encouraging their rocket attacks on Israel?

Place your bets!

100 Responses to “and the difference is?”

  1. Good thoughtful stuff Mike.
    Personally I think rocket attacks are the real threat of the future. The more hits Hamas achieves, the more they will get access to longer range sophisticated rockets/missiles.
    If they can keep the Israreli citizenry tied down in their miklutot (bomb shelters) the more demoralised the people will become.
    On a human level I have every sympathy with the innocent non combatants of both sides. I agree that the situation is intolerable for Palestinians, but their leaders are so hell bent on destroying Israel that they will NOT negotiate for peace. They need a viable state, but that is only a stepping stone, a launch pad for further, closer attacks on the State of Israel.
    We are sliding inexorably towards an almighty confrontation, and that is what the Bible says will happen.

  2. In the present somewhat amateur attempts at mass assassination by the terrorists of Hamas, and the more qualified and targeted killing responses by the Israeli Air Force

    So Hamas are amatuerly attempting mass assassination and Israel are making incisive raids on qualified and specific targets?

    That’s a beautiful way of explaining away the huge disparity in civillian body count as a result of the massively dispropportionate Israeli military retaliation. Gobbels would’ve been proud of it.

    Oh, here’s some Zionist logic regarding those ‘qualified and targeted’ responses that you mention;

    The Israeli military confirmed to the BBC that it knew foreign journalists were in at least one of the two media buildings it struck in Gaza, but said they were not the target

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20383001

  3. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8AAU6ZCUAAO04X.jpg:large

    The reality of Israel’s targeted killings

  4. The Israelis have every right to bomb the areas the rockets are coming from.

    What’s their alternative?

  5. Just a warning before you click on my link above its pretty graphic stuff but tells the truth of Israel’s so called precision strikes

  6. Submariner,
    Terrible.
    But any violent death is awful- especially that of a child. None of us wants this, but neither can we find a solution that both parties are willing to accept.

  7. Israeli attacks will stop the day the Hamas and friends rockets come to an end.

    That solution has been on the table for quite some time.

  8. The Israelis always manage to kill about ten times more civilians, while apparently trying not to, than Hamas does while apparently trying to.

    Begs the question of which is the more dismally incompetent.

  9. Phantom,
    As I said,
    “but neither can we find a solution that both parties are willing to accept.”
    It is a kind of madness. In fact I have to say that whilst I lived in Israel I got into conversations where you started to feel totally confused and disorientated because the frames of reference were so alien, and to me illogical.

  10. Agit8ed
    What is needed is an honest broker and America is not it. Israel can do whatever it wants it can kill as many civilians as it wants,commit as many war crimes as it wants and America will turn a blind eye and the US tax dollars will still be handed out.

  11. It’s a grim state of affairs when you realise China or even Russia would be a more honest broker than anything in the West.

  12. Submariner’s 8.21 is spot on.

  13. How come no one wants to say what the IDF should do in response to these rockets?

    It’s not exactly a difficult question surely

  14. It seems that Hamas are not the only ones having a go at the Zionazis

    Anonymous Operation Israel – Press Release

    Thursday – November 15, 2012 2:00 AM ET USA

    Greetings World —

    For far to long, Anonymous has stood by with the rest of the world and watched in despair the barbaric, brutal and despicable treatment of the Palestinian people in the so called “Occupied Territories” by the Israel Defense Force. Like so many around the globe, we have felt helpless in the face of such implacable evil. And today’s insane attack and threatened invasion of Gaza was more of the same.

    But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way – we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch. To the IDF and government of Israel we issue you this warning only once. Do NOT shut down the Internet into the “Occupied Territories”, and cease and desist from your terror upon the innocent people of Palestine or you will know the full and unbridled wrath of Anonymous. And like all the other evil governments that have faced our rage, you will NOT survive it unscathed.

    To the people of Gaza and the “Occupied Territories”, know that Anonymous stands with you in this fight. We will do everything in our power to hinder the evil forces of the IDF arrayed against you. We will use all our resources to make certain you stay connected to the Internet and remain able to transmit your experiences to the world. As a start, we have put together the Anonymous Gaza Care Package – http://bit.ly/XH87C5 – which contains instructions in Arabic and English that can aid you in the event the Israel government makes good on it’s threat to attempt to sever your Internet connection. It also contains useful information on evading IDF surveillance, and some basic first aid and other useful information. We will continue to expand and improve this document in the coming days, and we will transmit it to you by every means at our disposal. We encourage you to download this package, and to share it with your fellow Palestinians to the best of your ability.

    We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel – know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.

    We Are Anonymous

    We Are Everywhere

    We Are Legion

    We Do Not Forgive

    We Do Not Forget

    To the oppressors of the innocent Palestinian people, it is to late to EXPECT US

  15. Brilliant stuff from Anonymous!

  16. How come no one wants to say what the IDF should do in response to these rockets?
    It’s not exactly a difficult question surely

    It seems that slaughtering civilians with the backing of America is the preferred response.

  17. //How come no one wants to say what the IDF should do in response to these rockets?//

    Well, if it stopped killing people in Gaza maybe that would help.

  18. How come no one wants to say what the IDF should do in response to these rockets?

    I don’t have the answer to that Phantom but what I do know is that Israel’s response is absolutely, totally and utterly disproportionate to the threat.

  19. The locations where the rockets are launched from will be bombed.

    That is what I would do, and that is what YOU would do if someone was raining death on your country

    Its not exactly a debatable point.

    Stop the rockets, and there will be no need to bombard anything.

  20. Paul

    The only proportionate response is a disproportionate response.

    The launching pads will be destroyed.

    There can be no other response

  21. Children are being ‘destroyed’ too. Nothing excuses it. Nothing. My heart aches.

  22. So Petr what would you do

    Are you angry at those firing the rockets from civilian areas?

    How would you respond to this tactic?

  23. Phantom and the slaughter of women and children are just an inconvenience i suppose?

  24. //Stop the rockets, and there will be no need to bombard anything.//

    Phantom, you seem to think the rockets started before Israel started its strikes against Gaza.
    I know a lot of people on your side of things jump to that conclusion, but you don’t have their excuse of docile stupidity.

  25. The locations where the rockets are launched from will be bombed

    Yeah?

    The Israeli military confirmed to the BBC that it knew foreign journalists were in at least one of the two media buildings it struck in Gaza, but said they were not the target

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20383001

    The only proportionate response is a disproportionate response

    An uncharacterisically gung – ho Trollesque comment.

  26. I hate all of this — but I don’t see how the IDF can do anything else.

    And I note that all here don’t propose any other tangible course of action either

  27. Paul,
    “I don’t have the answer to that Phantom but what I do know is that Israel’s response is absolutely, totally and utterly disproportionate to the threat.”

    If you don’t have the answer, and the Palestinian leadership has consistently failed to accept any peace deals offered by Israel, whilst continuing to make it quite clear their aim is the destruction of Israel; it seems to me that you are condemning Israel for responding to these attacks on their civilian population, without having a clear, workable alternative to what Hamas is doing.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/world/middleeast/arms-with-long-reach-bolster-hamas.html?_r=0

  28. If you don’t have the answer, and the Palestinian leadership has consistently failed to accept any peace deals offered by Israel,

    Exactly what peace deals have Israel offered the Gazans and Hamas?

  29. The Israelis are supposed to never defend themselves.

    These guys want them to die.

    Behind all the crocodile tears, that is the reality.

  30. The Israelis left Gaza unilaterally.

    That was a peace action, which was responded to by virulent hostility.

  31. //And I note that all here don’t propose any other tangible course of action either//

    Phantom, I did but you ignored it.
    As you also ignored my 8:52.

    (I thought you’d gone off to phone your mates in Israel to find out)

  32. forgot to add a smiley there, btw.

  33. Here’s a proposal. Israel makes a very big public announcement that it will stop ALL military strikes covert and overt in Gaza and the West Bank and if it sticks to it then the Palestinians will need to cease rocket attacks on Israel. If they don’t or if Israel resumes it’s operations then the world will know who to blame.

  34. Peace deals? How can there be peace when one of the principal participants is the paymaster of it’s client state in the middle east?

    And I note that all here don’t propose any other tangible course of action either

    An process of a two state solution garunteed by a collective of internationals based on Submariner’s 8.21 might be a good start?

  35. Submariner62
    http://jcpa.org/dje/articles/fedconfed-sol.htm
    You will probably disagree, in the same way that the two sides disagree. BUT no democratic government can stand by whilst its population is under attack.

  36. ” Peace deals? How can there be peace when one of the principal participants is the paymaster of it’s client state in the middle east?”

    Paul,
    Israel is not a client state of America. If anything it is the influence of the Jewish American community in the States which both fundraises and lobbies on behalf of Israel.
    America protects Europe and has military bases and weaponry installed. Does that make us client states?

  37. Semantics doesn’t change the fact that the US is not a nuetral obsever when it comes to Israel Agi.

  38. BUT no democratic government can stand by whilst its population is under attack.

    Agit8ed I take it that since Hamas is the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Govt of GAZA you believe it has a right to defend its citizens from attack?

  39. Paul McMahon –

    The Israeli military confirmed to the BBC that it knew foreign journalists were in at least one of the two media buildings it struck in Gaza, but said they were not the target

    Sky News was in one of those buildings, and it’s just made an interesting broadcast. As per Israeli warnings and practice, the target was Hamas comms equipment on the roof (which Israel claims was used for military purposes). Sky News has just shown that on the floors above their office was a Hamas communications operation.

    Media operations know that Hamas is the target. Why then share a building with Hamas?

    If they cannot kick out Hamas or insist on being moved elsewhere, then report it. We know that foreign news outfits are closely watched in places like Gaza. So you either put up with the occupational hazard of being close to Hamas or you pull out entirely and explain why.

    What’s intellectually and morally dishonest is sharing a building with Hamas and then bleating when a missile hits your roof.

  40. It would be useful if the pro-Hamas crew would explain what Israel should do in response to hundreds of rockets being launched by Hamas from Gaza at Israeli citizens.

    To the “but Hamas was democratically elected” types, when you elect warlords and die at the hands of those warlords’ enemies, you get what you deserve.

    We’ve been told quite often that Hamas is legitimate because it is democratically elected. The people who voted for Hamas did not vote for Hamas’ monetary or health policies. They voted for war with Israel.

    Well those voters are again getting what they voted for.

  41. Submariner62,
    Yes I do accept that.
    I think I’ve made it clear quite a few times now, I see no political solution to the situation because in order for Palestine to have a viable state there would have to be some major land swapping, and as regarding who is the victim and who is the aggressor, it is more a matter of who you choose to believe.
    I have lived there over five years. I never met many Israelis who were baying for Palestinian blood, I never met any Israelis who couldn’t wait to invade Gaza or the West Bank again.
    In my personal experience I found Israelis to be peaceful people who want a solution so that all can live in peace.
    On the other hand I have seen lots of evidence of the frustration and anger felt towards Israelis, and the avowed aim of some to totally destroy Israel. Given the tiny distances separating the two sides, to my mind Israel has no choice but to go after those seeking her destruction and those firing rockets into Israeli territory.

  42. The people who voted for Hamas did not vote for Hamas’ monetary or health policies. They voted for war with Israel.

    How do you know?

  43. Oh fucking grow up.

  44. Sky News has just shown that on the floors above their office was a Hamas communications operation.

    Have you a link Pete because all the reports I have seen refer to it as a media centre in Gaza City.

    The people who voted for Hamas did not vote for Hamas’ monetary or health policies. They voted for war with Israel.

    I have no ides why the Gaza electorate voted for Hamas and, I assume, neither have you.

  45. Petr,
    Look at what is happening across the Arab world. Look at the deaths of innocents in Syria. Look at Yemen, look at Libya, Iraq, Egypt. The repression in Iran, the repression in Saudi Arabia.
    It might represent peaceful democratic change to you, but to me it’s bloody, violent chaos.
    If I were an Israeli what I see in the wider Arab world would fill me with no confidence whatsoever that my Palestinian neighbours want “only peaceful coexistence”.

  46. //What’s intellectually and morally dishonest is sharing a building with Hamas and then bleating when a missile hits your roof.//

    It gets worse. I even know people who shared a McDonalds table with Israeli soldiers and then started bleating when a bomb flew in the window.

  47. Thanks, Pete. Wallow away in your cluelessness.

  48. Pete’s lost the argument (and he knows it) when he has to resort to stupid ignorant swearing.

  49. //what Israel should do in response to hundreds of rockets being launched by Hamas from Gaza at Israeli citizens.//

    Your question is like: What should the Germans do about all those Allied air raides other than fire V weapons.

    But let me repeat my reply to Phantom (who went all quiet after it) who asked exactly the same question.

    It should stop killing people in Gaza if it really wanted to prevent those rockets.

  50. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650300.stm

    “Many Palestinians will have voted for Hamas because of its perceived discipline and integrity, and its strong anti-Israeli ideology.”

    Maybe Pete read the same article.

  51. Given their experiences over the last 40+ years to people really expect Palestinians not to be anti-Israeli ?

  52. Quoting the BBC as a source? I’m very impressed.

    “Many Palestinians will have voted for Hamas because of its perceived discipline and integrity, and its strong anti-Israeli ideology.”

    You do realise that the use of the modal verb will denotes that the quote is an opinion rather than a fact don’t you?

  53. Paul McMahon –

    “Have you a link Pete because all the reports I have seen refer to it as a media centre in Gaza City.”

    Your link is Sky News. This “a media centre” is the “Gaza Media Centre”. These journalists are original, eh?

  54. Noel Cunningham –

    What killings were perpetrated in Gaza to prompt Hamas missile attacks against Israel?

  55. Colm et al,
    As I have said before, it boils down to your personal attitudes beliefs etc as to whom you choose to accuse!
    I think Phantom like others knows that our discussions on this issue get us ultimately nowhere, because we all have our views shaped and established over the years.
    It is wrong to say that one side or the other is blameless. We don’t want to see innocents killed or homes destroyed on either side. The only way forward is to see what practical “no blame” solutions can be found that is acceptable to both sides. But I believe that it will require some kind of buffer force to monitor the peace perhaps for years to come.

  56. Paul McMahon –

    “You do realise that the use of the modal verb will denotes that the quote is an opinion rather than a fact don’t you?”

    Not with BBC linguistics.

    “Will” in BBC-English is slyly/suggestive, denoting unpalatable facts which cannot be expressly announced.

  57. ” You do realise that the use of the modal verb will denotes that the quote is an opinion rather than a fact don’t you?”

    Yes.
    But people do this all the time regarding Northern Ireland too.

  58. There will be no political settlement in this struggle. It is war to the death and it will only be ended by nuclear attack in which one side is obliterated. But the other side will be obliterated soon after.

  59. Agit8ed

    Even when there are peaceful interludes there seems to be no pressure to affect the only obvious logical conclusion. The creation of a genuine sovereign independent Palestinian state. Israel continues to build ever growing settlements and no attempts are made to give Palestinian people the same thing the vast majority of people on earth, including us and the Israelis have – citizenship and State recognition. The Palestinians have been in limbo for decades, regarded as stateless entities or permanent refugees , used by their Arab neighbours and totally dependent on Israeli permission to move in and out of the territory they live in. It isn;t beyond the wit of the world powers to bang heads together and force a genuine settlement that may not please either side sufficiently but should be done and yes the USA needs to be more willing to pressure Israel at the very least over the expansion of the settlements and the disregard Israel has over the humiliating affect this has on Palestinians.

  60. So Sky News report is as the Gaza Media Centre and you automatically peg it as a ‘Hamas communications operation’ with journos sharing a building with Hamas?

    Ah, okay.

    The crash of explosions pierced the Gaza City quiet several times throughout the early morning, with one attack injuring several journalists at a communications building, witnesses said

    http://business-standard.com/india/news/israel-bombs-gaza-mediagovt-sites/492944/

    Wonder how many Hamas people it injured?

    “Will” in BBC-English is slyly/suggestive, denoting unpalatable facts which cannot be expressly announced

    Agi, while some may accuse you of talking absolute cobblers I know that you’re an expert on that nefarious BBC and it’s wily ways.

  61. I stopped posting on this issue because Colm always seems to say what I’m thinking and says it more succinctly with proper grammar and spelling…except for the improperly spelled (spelt) British words.

  62. Paul McMahon –

    “So Sky News report is as the Gaza Media Centre and you automatically peg it as a ‘Hamas communications operation’ with journos sharing a building with Hamas?”

    No, Sky News did not name the building. Sky pegged it as a Hamas comms centre in their 9pm and 10pm broadcasts, admitting that they occupy the 14th floor with Hamas above them. Google told me the name of the building.

  63. //What killings were perpetrated in Gaza to prompt Hamas missile attacks against Israel?//

    As far as I can tell, this round started with the Israel army killing a boy during an altercation near the border when the Izzies were fixing a fence or something. It was one of those Bloody Sunday type affairs, I presume.

    Later some Pallies fired at an Israeli army jeep, and wounded several soldiers. The Izzies replied by killing two civilians and then later two at the funeral (of the boy, I think, Im going by memory).

    I think Hamas started firing rockets into Israel then and the whole thing “escalated”.

    At any rate, it is clear that the Israelis, as almost always, were the first to kill civilians, and when Hamas responds with rockets into Israel the Israelis kill more con gusto.

    Basically this all means that practically everything Phantom etc. said on this thread and elsewhere on the subject is totally bullshit. Like so many with his view of the situation, they immediatley and automatically believe that Israel wouldn’t start the killings, that military behaviour putting civilians at risk is always started by the Arabs. They are usually wrong.

    It also means that all that drivel we hear every day “But Israel has a right to defent itself” is a load of cant. Not only do people who say that believe that only Israel (and thier own country of course) has that right and that the Palestinians don’t, but they, incredibly, also seem to believe that the people of Gaza should accept it too!

  64. I’ve just checked: the first incident was on 8th Nov.

  65. Paul McMahon –

    “Agi, while some may accuse you of talking absolute cobblers I know that you’re an expert on that nefarious BBC and it’s wily ways.”

    He does talk cobblers, and it’s me who knows of the BBC’s ways.

  66. Both of the first two incidents were on the border.

  67. mairin

    If I say what you are thinking, then all I can conclude is that you are a very intelligently thoughtfull person 🙂

    PS – There is no such thing as an improperly spelt British word 😉

  68. No, Sky News did not name the building. Sky pegged it as a Hamas comms centre in their 9pm and 10pm broadcasts, admitting that they occupy the 14th floor with Hamas above them.

    Then it must be an exclusive for Sky as it seems to be the only source reporting it as such.

  69. Noel Cunningham –

    Your 10.31pm is speculative/made up bullshit.

  70. //Your 10.31pm is speculative/made up bullshit.//

    No, it isn’t. Tell us, pray what you think happened, or we’ll assume you’re the bullshitter.

  71. Paul MacMahon

    The Sky exclusive
    .

  72. Noel Cunningham –

    “As far as I can tell … It was one of those Bloody Sunday type affairs, I presume … Later some Pallies fired at an Israeli army jeep … I think Hamas started firing rockets into Israel then and the whole thing “escalated”.

    Don’t give your bullshit recollections. We know from your account of the Berlin Wall coming down that your memory unreliable, and we know from your denial of millions of rapes of German women by Russian troops that your history is rather off too. Give us facts instead.

  73. Sky still the only source reporting it as such but fair enough, a good catch.

  74. Pete, you believe what you believe because that is what they want you to believe.
    (I love saying that :-))

    My memory is reliable (whereas I presume you’re drunk). I don’t believe I ever made a mistake about the fall of the Berlin Wall or about Russian troops raping German women, but you are free to quote me on either. I promise never to speak about either event here again if you do. I’m quite cocky about this as I know you will never find anything because I never said anything of the kind, and that you are an occasional liar.

    You asked a (rhetorical?) question and I embarrassed you by answering it. If you can find any indicents of Palestinians firing rockets into Israel in the present round of hostilities before 8th Nov (look, I even give you dates) when that boy was killed, you can call me a fool. But you won’t be able to, so I call you a fool.

  75. Maybe the cause of this confusion is that they didn’t report the killing of that boy or the following 4 deaths on Sky News.

  76. Israel’s settlement policies and failure to have substantive talks with the PA are both glaring failures. But when it comes to provocative violence and terrorism Hamas is to blame.

  77. Mahons, while the SkyNews junky is away checking the archives, can you tell us how Israelis killing five Palestinians amounts to “provocative violence and terrorism” by Hamas?

    Look, do you guys want the names and addresses of the victims or what?

  78. Noel – There have been hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel in 2012 (before November 8th).

  79. But not in the period before that date. What we are talking about is who started the killings in the present round.
    Or do you mean that israel was responding to rockets fired some months ago? Which attacks were they responding to?

  80. Noel – Do I have to recount the terrorist activities of Hamas for you? By the way, Hamas has killed more than 5 Palestinians, but I won’t trouble you for their names and addresses.

  81. Noel – I believe the Israeli response is to the pattern of attacks over this year (and the past as well). What you are talking about is using a November 8th arbitrary date because it suit your narrative if not the full facts on the situation.

  82. //Do I have to recount the terrorist activities of Hamas for you? //

    No, just the ones before 8th November when the present round of hostilities started that justified Israel’s actions after that date.
    I propose there had been no rockets fired into Israel for at least several weeks beforehand, perhaps longer. Tell us of any you know about.

  83. 26 killed in Gaza today alone 🙁

  84. //I believe the Israeli response is to the pattern of attacks over this year (and the past as well). What you are t0alking about is using a November 8th arbitrary date because it suit your narrative //

    Mahons, that’s nonsense. First of all, Israel says that its response is to the rockets fired in the present round, so you are singing from a different palm sheet than they at least on that.
    Second, 8th Nov is not an arbitrary date. It is when the present round of killings started after a lull of, as I said, at least several weeks. Pete, remember, asked me what had triggered the present Hamas response.

    Going by your reasoning, Israel is perfectly entitled to attack Gaza at any time as there will always have been some Hamas rockets many moons ago.

    If Israel was really responding to much earlier rockets (and the very idea is absurd), they should bloody well have said so, instead of referring to some subsequent attacks. That might have got them some more undertanding and at least saved us this debate.

  85. Noel – October 24, 2012 – 65 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza (five people injured).

    Israel’s response is based on a totality of the circumstances, including the most recent series of attacks.

    I don’t suggest israel should attack Gaza any time. But when rockets are coming over, then the answer is they are clearly entitled to do so.

    Personally I wish they would try to seek a substantive ceasefire, as I don’t think this conflict helps anyone.

  86. //Israel’s response is based on a totality of the circumstances, //

    Mahons, I don’t believe that and don’t believe you believe it. You trot that out now that I’ve shown that the Israelis started this latest tit-for-tat.

    Still, the idea that Israel can, after a welcome lull, respond to attacks carried out over the year and the past as well is at least new and adds a bit of levity to all this tragic news.

    //including the most recent series of attacks. //

    So it was responding to them before they happened?

    The Loyalists groups in NI used to say that too, and for some reasons it sounded more convincing coming from them.

  87. Noel Cunningham –

    “If you can find any indicents of Palestinians firing rockets into Israel in the present round of hostilities before 8th Nov”

    October 12 – Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child’s bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.

    October 14 – Palestinians fired two rockets …

    October 16 – Palestinians fired a rocket …

    October 17 – Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets …

    October 18 – Palestinians fired a rocket …

    October 22 – Palestinians fired 7 rockets …

    October 23 – Palestinians fired 3 rockets …

    October 24 – Palestinian military personnel fired at least 80 rockets and mortars into Israel…

    October 25 – Despite an informal ceasefire, Palestinians launched a mortar shell …

    October 28 – Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets …

    October 29 – Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars …

    October 30 – a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona …

    October 31 – Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets …

    Noel, life is easier without lies.

  88. This account by Emily Hauser, an American Israeli who lived in Tel Aviv for fourteen years, backs Noel’s version of how this latest round of bloodshed started.

    Thursday, November 8

    In an exchange of fire on the border of Gaza with militants from the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), Israeli forces killed a 12 year old (or 13 year old ) Palestinian boy. “The PRC said it had confronted an Israeli force of four tanks and a bulldozer involved in a short-range incursion beyond Israel’s border fence with the Gaza Strip.” Later, Palestinian fighters blew up a tunnel along the Gaza-Israel border, injuring one Israeli soldier. Reuters

    Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported the incident as follows: “An IDF [Israeli military] engineering force located a number of powerful explosive devices to the west of the fence. After the IDF disarmed charges found on the Gaza side of the border, and were repairing the border fence, explosives in an underground tunnel were detonated, causing a large explosion…damaging a jeep and lightly injuring a soldier.”Israeli MFA

    Saturday, November 10

    An IDF force patrolling near the border, inside Israel, was hit by an anti-tank missile fired from inside the Gaza Strip. Two soldiers were seriously injured. MFA

    In retaliation, Israeli tanks fired into Gaza, killing four Palestinians; Palestinian fighters retaliated in turn with rockets into Israel; an Israeli air strike targeted a rocket crew, & killed a militant. “Popular Resistance Committees, said it had fired rockets at communities close to the border and the towns of Sderot and Netivot in southern Israel, in what it called ‘the revenge invoice’ for the deaths in Gaza.” The IDF reports that “over the past few hours, 25 rockets fired from the Gaza Strip hit southern Israel.” Reuters

    In addition to the four Palestinians killed immediately by Israeli fire, 38 were injured, one of them dying on November 13. As a result of additional Israeli artillery fire that day, 11 Palestinians, including a 10 year old child, were also injured. An Israeli drone fired a missile at members of the armed wing of Islamic Jihad in north Gaza, killing one militant. Palestinian Center for Human Rights

    Read the rest at the link.

  89. OK, that’s an impressive list (Pete), and would be more impressive if all the reports didn’t come from things like the Jerusalem Post. Neutral media, including Reuters, spoke of a lull in such incidents by both sides for several weeks prior to that boy being shot.
    However, I concede that rockets were fired from Gaza near enough to that date, although I certainly don’t think they were the cause of Israel’s response.

    BTW, how are you getting along with that Berlin Wall and raped women thing?

  90. Noel: Show me rockets fired into Israel from Gaza before the event I claim started everything.

    Mahons: Shown.

    Show me the way to go home, I am weary and I want to go to bed, I had a little drink….sorry to spoil your narrative with troublesome facts…and it went right to my head.

  91. Neutral media, including Reuters? Reuters is not neutral – check who its owners are. As for Israel being the only ‘democracy’ in the Middle East, Israel is no democracy:

    http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/christian-persecution-in-israel/

    Uttar says:

    July 15, 2010 at 7:13 am

    I am not christian. I am a jew that live in Israel for 23 years. I can tell you that organizations like “Lev La achim” or”the Israeli Center for Victims of Cults” persecute people who preach in Israel any religion that is not orthodox Judaism. The problem is that this people have friends in the media, in the police, in the government even judges and loyers. I was wittnes of how this organizations can put in jail innocent people or can really broke their reputation in order to destroy him. Is really horrible that the world really don’t know this face of Israel. People all over the world think that Israel is a democraccy open to any religion but the reality is so far –

  92. This is OT but may hopefully be noted in a future article:

    http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac?page=1&sy=smh&kw=McAlpine&pb=all_ffx&dt=selectRange&dr=entire&so=relevance&sf=text&sf=author&sf=headline&rc=10&rm=200&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=news000805_0179_5240

    – Can this be the same person who wrote The New Machiavelli: The Art of Politics in Business – a guide on how to succeed in modern politics by being vile? A book on how to manipulate people for the “greater good”?

    McAlpine’s advice on dealing with the media? Spread false defeat to gain public sympathy; or false accusation and then arrange for it to be exposed as such – so the accuser will forever be treated with suspicion. –

    Lord McAlpine has just received £190,000 from the BBC for damage to his reputation. Abused children have received nothing.

  93. Allan McTatters,
    You really are a wally sometimes.
    I watched your clip. It wasn’t that much different to when I was there, but there are many more Orthodox Jews of various persuasions.
    And why wouldn’t there be?
    Get real McTatters, Israel is full of Jewish people. The Christians and Messianic Jews have increased in number, but they should expect hostility and persecution. One guy Avi, says (starting 7:59)
    “I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve been hated before.”
    What does he expect in a Jewish state?
    Then he says, “It’s because of what I believe”

    But it’s not just that.These orthodox guys are carrying around roughly twothousand years of hatred, rejection and persecution from what they perceive as Christians! Some of them will have lost entire families in the Holocaust conducted by (as they see it) Christians.
    What on earth do you expect them to do?!

  94. Two thousand years of persecution, small wonder that their patience is running a bit thin… a small story that’s doing the rounds…
    —–
    ‘Ahhhhh the wisdom of the ages.

    A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.

    So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

    She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.

    “Pardon me, sir, I’m Rebecca Smith from CNN. What’s your name?

    “Morris Feinberg,” he replied.

    “Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?”

    “For about 60 years.”

    “60 years! That’s amazing! What do you pray for?”

    “I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims.”

    “I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop.”

    “I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults and to love their fellow man.”
    “I pray that politicians tell us the truth and put the interests of the people ahead of their own interests.”

    “How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?”

    “Like I’m talking to a f*****g brick wall.”
    —-

  95. Excellent Ernest!

  96. Here’s another story told me by a Jewish Christian..
    A Jew (Moishe) lived next door to a Catholic (Marcus). They got on pretty well, and one day Marcus is all excited and tells Moishe that his eldest son wants to become a priest.
    Wow! says Moishe, now there’s a thing. Mazel Tov!
    Thanks says Marcus, I am so proud. He will do wonderful things.
    Moishe says,
    Forgive me, I don’t know how these things work. Can he advance from being a priest to something higher?
    Well, says Marcus.
    If he studies, if he cares for his congregation, if he encourages piety, after some years he might become a Bishop!
    And then?
    Well, if he is really pious, celebrates all the holy days and increases the flock he could – after many years – make Archbishop..
    Yeah, and then? pressed Moishe, could he go further?

    Marcus is becoming annoyed..
    Well, if he really did do well and earned the trust and respect of the Church, there is a very slim chance that he might even go on to become Pope!!

    Pope eh? says Moshe, That’s a really important position, no?
    And after that could he go higher?

    Higher! shouts Marcus. HIGHER?! You think he could become God??

    Well says Moishe,
    As I understand it, one of our guys made it….

  97. ahhh what a wonderful cacophony.

    Understand it has begun, it will get worse. Many will die.

    Draw your allegiance you will be held accountable.

    and do not doubt you are committing yourself with your words to who and what you support

  98. Oh stop being so dramatic Troll. You make it sound as if we are all about to be sucked into the trenches.. 😉

  99. Ahhh what a wonderful cacophony

    That old bloodlust must be a difficult thing to quench eh?

  100. //and do not doubt you are committing yourself with your words to who and what you support//

    And do not doubt that you are committing yourself to supporting killing, bloodshed and suffering.

    But I’m afraid you are going to be as disappointed in your predictions of war as you were in your predictions of a Romney presidency.