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Name That Soon

By ATWadmin On December 6th, 2006

It’s finally the start of the process leading to the day of reckoning for those of us who passionately believe that Northern Ireland’s second largest settlement should retain its official title of Londonderry.  Not so for some of the separatist plebs who, by stroke of historical bad luck, happen to live within its borders.

According to The Guardian, today the High Court in Belfast will launch a judicial enquiry to finally establish the ‘true name’ of the city.  In truth there is nothing to establish.  The name of the city has been legally Londonderry since the Royal Charter was bestowed upon it by King James I in 1613.  Under British constitutional law it is impossible to revoke the terms of a Royal Charter (and a name change here would, I contend, involve a revocation, not an amendment) unless the territory concerned cecedes from the sovereignty of the UK Parliament.  Some point to the fact that Kingstown and Queenstown in the Irish Republic changed to Dun Laoghaire and Cobh, respectively.  What they fail to notice is that the Irish Republic is an independent sovereign entity and, moreover, these two examples were both towns and not cities.  In the UK only a Royal Charter can establish city status.

Some might consider the perceived neutrality of the NIO as evidence that they are not prepared to defend the Constitutional protocol of the State for which they are employed.  The truth is they have no need to get involved because the ruling will be an open and shut case.  And, for republicans who will be demanding a new Royal Charter to replace the existing one, it is down to me to tell them it will be like urinating in the wind.  Londonderry it officially is, and Londonderry it will officially remain.

UPDATE: Information on amendments to a Royal Charter are detailed here.

 

117 Responses to “Name That Soon”

  1. >>Some point to the fact that Kingstown and Queenstown in the Irish Republic changed to Dun Laoghaire and Cobh, respectively. What they fail to notice is that the Irish Republic is an independent sovereign entity and, moreover, these two examples were both towns and not cities.<<

    Correct me if im wrong Andrew, but Dun Laoghaire changed its name back pre independence, ie under direct british rule, via a town council resolution and Cobh changed back under the Irish Free State and not the ROI. The free state was not an independent sovereign entity. It had to swear allegiance to the crown did it not.

  2. Who cares? There’s more important things in life than the name of a bloody town! Nationalists will always call it Derry, unionsts will always call it Londonderry – what the hell is the problem?

  3. Very true Fear.

    Brings the whole farce over the name of dingle to mind. Its not like the next day you walk out the door and start using the new name.

  4. >>Dun Laoghaire changed its name back pre independence, ie under direct british rule, via a town council resolution<<

    True Kloot, but it was changed in 1921, just a few months before Independence, when D-L Council had a Sinn Fein majority. I don’t know if the new name was recognised by the British during the rest of their stay.

    Re. (London)Derry. Many Unionists, including the Apprentice Boys no less, use "Derry". Plebs, Andrew?

    Maybe someone who knows can tell us what the legal situation is (Chris?)

    I agree with Mr. Orange about the name.

  5. Guys, chill, i doesnt matter. Lord Andrew of Ulster has spoken. there is nothing more to discuss. Your english laird, in his english castle, has given his word on the subject. And his word is final.

  6. >>True Kloot, but it was changed in 1921, just a few months before Independence, when D-L Council had a Sinn Fein majority. I don’t know if the new name was recognised by the British during the rest of their stay.<<

    Good point Cunningham.

    >>Your english laird, in his english castle, has given his word on the subject. And his word is final.
    <<

    Get a good grip on that ladle, or its likely to fall in while your stirring that pot 🙂

  7. <Q>unionsts will always call it Londonderry </Q>

    Not so – ABOD call it Derry 😉

    I’m not bothered if the city is called Londonderry or Derry – the County should only be called Londonderry IMO. I’d oblect if they wanted to name the city an Doire or BobbySandsVille
    .

  8. >>Not so – ABOD call it Derry ;)<<

    In fairness it would have cost a fortune to have those banners re done… 🙂

  9. I couldn’t care less what it’s called.

    But most places in Northern Ireland, however strange they sound in English, are descriptive in their Irish rendering, e.g. Beal Feirste, Ard Mhacha, Tir Eoghain. But Londonderry? What is the *point* of having ‘London’ at the start?

  10. Northern Irelanders will be proud to hear that their NI Secretary has just been named "Welsh Politician of the Year" by am.pm.!

    Congratulations!

  11. The banners are replaced fairly regularly Kloot 🙂

    Hugh – like it or not, the London Company is a part of all our cultural heritage. Trying to wipe out all traces of anglo influence belongs in the late 19th century. Even in the Gaeltacht it’s been decided to keep Dingle.

  12. Hain Welsh ? Seems appropriate LOL

  13. ‘the London Company is a part of all our cultural heritage.’

    A pointless part, but there you have it. I see no reason to wipe it out, but its sheer pointlessness will baffle people for generations to come.

  14. Hugh – no more pointless than the roots of most of our town and townland names which come from a language that is dead to a far higher percentage of the population that want to eradicate all traces of the British heritage.

  15. It’s "Derry" in the words of the Sash. I tend to think Londonderry in formal communications and Derry for short at other times. As per Newcastle and Newcastel-upon-Tyne

  16. I agree NRG.

  17. what is the big deal. Besides it could be worse:

    Shitlingthorpe – Yorkshire, UK
    Bastard – Norway
    Twatt – Orkney, UK
    Muff – Northern Ireland
    Turdo – Romania
    Shag Island – Indian Ocean
    Wet Beaver Creek – Australia
    Tittybong – Australia
    Blow Me Down – Newfoundland, Canada
    Old Man’s Head – Newfoundland, Canada
    Big Ugly – West Virginia, USA
    Piddle-in-the-Hole – England
    Come by Chance – Newfoundland (there is one in Australia also)
    Middle Wallop – England

  18. A rose by any other name….

  19. MR,

    It’s good that you admit that the name Londonderry is pointless, as well as, as you rightly note, the majority of English names for towns and townlands in Ireland. This is somewhat different to the situation in Britain, where place names like Stratford upon Avon, Cambridge and Aberystwyth actually say something about their location.

  20. Great list there Alison. One more

    "Horse and Jockey" – Tipperary, Ireland

  21. Muff is in Donegal Alison or should I say Tir Connell?

    I demand it be renamed.

  22. why dont we call it "investors beware" and be done with it ?

    if the republicans hate english heritage so much we should really get the wrecking balls out and head for dublin, its not so much english materials they hate or even english names, its protestant heritage and protestant inclusion in the fabric of society and postive history that ticks them off.

  23. Hugh

    Normally they do yes they usually denote saxon norman etc ( ham on the end denotes a saxon village doesnt it? etc etc).

    Right. So ‘Muff’. Umm.

  24. I always thought it would have been impressive to live in Blackscull Co Down.

  25. Garfield – sorry about that i dont know – i copied the list from a website called strange place names.

    Never been to Ireland. Or Northern Ireland for that matter. Judging from the way these threads kick off sometimes its still a scary place!

  26. If 3 of those towns mentioned by Alison united would it be called ‘Blow me old man’s big ugly head ‘ .

  27. And you’re an authority Jaun are you?

    I’ll have you know Ireland has taken in well over a hundred thousand refugees from Britain in the last decade, fleeing the dreaded Labour tyranny.

    They are integrating well.

    Alison,
    easy mistake, it’s northern Ireland (note small n) and in Ulster but was sacrificed on the unionist altar of making sure there was a secure unionist majority. Hence it was jettisoned and is today in the Republic.

  28. There’s a place called Wankie in Zimbabwe.
    But the classic is still Phucket.

  29. Sticks and Stones time. I’m from a town that was called Manhattan by the original natives, New Amsterdam by the first Dutch Settlers and New York by the British settlers. We’ve got boroughs called Queens and Kings County which each have millions of folks living in them who seem to get on with life despite the names.

  30. Perhaps to the delight of bawdy young Englishmen, there is a place called Five Points in Donegal.

  31. "Londonderry", even if only used in formal correspondence, does demonstrate a mix of Gaelic and British cultures and some shared and rather interesting history. It is sad that some people can’t respect that and instead push for intolerant a mono-cultural dominance.

  32. "And you’re an authority Jaun are you?"

    on what exactly Garfield ?

    i’m sorry, but I fail to see why my point on the actual aggravating factor behind cultural intolerance has any relevance to English migration to the south, (most of the people I know who went are third / second generation Irish).
    "They are integrating well" and why wouldn’t they? its a much better place to live than the yardie dumps I have to tramp through every night. I’m sure they will feel right at home what with Lyons tea, cork gin and a virtually identical ethical code and way of life…….
    what has this got to do with removing protestant cultural heritage ?

    and if you hate the word London, why don’t you curl up in horror at the presence of large scale (and magnificent) Georgian architecture ? the crucial difference is continuing empowered protestant inclusion.

  33. <em>today the High Court in Belfast will launch a judicial enquiry to finally establish the ‘true name’ of the city</em>

    For someone who pretends to be well versed on Constitutional law I do find it ironic that you believe the High Court has the power to "launch a judicial enquiry"

    Derry City Council is bringing a Judicial Review and a Judge is being asked to rule on it.

    There is a big differnce between a Judicial Review and the High Court having the power to lauch an enquiry.

    I would stick to the social care if I was you!

  34. Those (Prods) of us who live in NI call the place Derry.

  35. Nice try, Jaun.

    The removal of the epithet "London" has nothing to do with attacking "Protestant heritage". That is a silly comment.

    It’s about reverting to the original placename (albeit an anglicised version thereof) and removing the outdated trappings of colonialism.

    As for the county, it was never called Co. Derry officially (although that is what most Irish people call it) so (in the name of cross-community inclusion/PC bullshit) maybe it should also revert to its original name of Co. Coleraine?

  36. "It’s about reverting to the original placename (albeit an anglicised version thereof) and removing the outdated trappings of colonialism"

    thanks for confirming my argument there reg.

  37. How so?

  38. <Q>It’s about reverting to the original placename (albeit an anglicised version thereof) and removing the outdated trappings of colonialism.</Q>

    That’s funnier than you intended Reg me old China.

  39. MR,

    For the sake of us humo[u]r deprived Yanks, what’s the joke?

  40. He doesn’t get out much Alan 😉

  41. There are more important things happening today.

    For example, today a woman travelling on a plane in the States was farting so much that she started secretly lighting matches to conceal the odour. The smell (of the burning sulphur) was noticed by fellow passengers, who premumed it was the start of a terrorist attack. They alerted the crew and the plane had to make an emergency landing in Nashville.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6213644.stm

  42. Mad,

    "Me old China"?

    Are you a Cockney in disguise?

  43. I think I better explain it.

    Reg says it is silly to suggest he has attacked Protestant heritage – Jaun reposts Reg’s comment about ‘outdated colonialist trappings’ and Reg apparently still can’t understand how he has attacked Protestant heritage.

    Now do y’all get it.

  44. <em>Are you a Cockney in disguise?</em>

    I firmly believe he is a Plastic Paddy in disguise.

  45. "Now do y’all get it."

    In a word, NO.

  46. Are you posting in your pink Tutu Mr G ? 😉

    Colm – it’s even more interesting than that.

    The Vintners company of London didn’t rename a town called an doire …. the Bogside is OUTWITH the city walls 🙂 They built on the remains of a trading post started a few years earlier. So Derry/Londonderry was a new "development" and that’s the joke Alan – Reg rabbiting on, displaying his ignorance.

    Reg and all his ilk belong with Gaelic Cultural nationalist loons like Hyde – back in the 19th century. It’s a short step from their nonsense about removing all "trappings of colonialism" to Pol Pot’s mindset.

    Thankfully there are plenty of sensible nationalists who recognise that the British Component is as important (and more ) a part of who and what they are as any residual Gaelic component..

  47. Alan

    It’s obvious – The very act of using the term ‘outdated colonial trappings’ is an attack on Protestant heritage because it dismisses the entire British identity of the unionist population as a sort of delusional misconceived attachment. What is there not to get ?

  48. What pink tutu? I see old age is finally catching up with you, old man jibberish and all that.

  49. Colm,

    Assuming that anything you just wrote is the gist of MR’s claim, why is it funny?

  50. "Those (Prods) of us who live in NI call the place Derry."

    A sweeping statement that is not true.

  51. Aileen

    I think it would be more accurate to say that in general everyday conversation protestants who live there do say Derry(I’ve been there and heard them) , but I can accept that elsewhere in N.I many people may refer to the city as Londonderry.

  52. Alan

    I think MR has answered why he found it funny. It’s not for me to explain what makes him chuckle 😉

  53. Colm

    As you know I’m not from there but I generally call it Derry but would write it in full.

    I know that there are locals that call it Londonderry.

    BU’s comment was just not factual.

  54. Colm,

    Thank you. You are a true gentleman.

    MR,

    As Queen Victoria once said, We are not amused.

  55. BU (whoever he/she is) needs a smacked bottom 🙂

  56. Colm

    Why the sudden interest in corporal punishment. I’ve just spotted a similar comment of your on another thread. Is it your punishment of choice? and do you see yourself as the agent ;o)

  57. >>The very act of using the term ‘outdated colonial trappings’ is an attack on Protestant heritage<<

    Colm, you’re wrong there. If anything, it is an attack on Unionist heritage.

    Many placenames were changed in the South around/after Independence. I’m sure phrases like "outdated colonial trappings" were also used at the time. It would be nonsense to call these changes or the use of the term an attack on Protestant heritage.

  58. Oh Aileen – a pure damsel like you trying to put a ‘kinky’ spin on my wholesome interest in good old fashioned chastistement. Tut tut shame on you.

    PS – I’ve identified your ‘gorgeous george’ on the Girls aloud thread. 🙂

  59. Alan – one has to laugh at nationalism – it’s built on historical sand. Untruths, exaggerations and misinterpretations recycled generation after generation.

  60. Cunningham

    Well as Unionism is by it’s very definition all about viewing Northern Ireland as being a full part of the UK and that being interwoven with the Protestant identity which the vast majority of Unionists have and having that shared UK nationality, removing British links and calling them ‘outdated colonialist trappings’ can be seen as an attack on Protestant heritage but I accept it isn’t an attack on Protestantism as a faith.

  61. Mad

    Now you are attacking nationalist heritage – smacked bottom for you 🙂

  62. I’m going to leave you to your fantasies Colm – This is David’s fault for posting that picture of those unveiled girls, it’s got Colm over-excited!

  63. If that’s true, Colm, then it is also conversely true that an assertion of the Unionist tradition – such as insisting the Union Jack fly over Nationalist towns or that the name of the predominantly Catholic town remain Londonderry – are also assertions of the Protestant tradition.
    That’s certainly an irrefutable argument for dumping those flags and for changing that name, then.

  64. Those interested might enjoy this :

    Nash,Catherine, Irish placenames: post colonial locations. In: Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers, Vol. 24, (4), pp.457-480. Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the Royal Geographical Society (with the Institute of British Geographers), 1999. © Blackwell Publishers Ltd.

    An interesting paper with lots to think on
    e.g.
    Quote :
    At a seminar in Dublin in 1992 organized by the Placenames Branch of the Ordnance Survey of Ireland and An Coimisiun Logainmneacha on policy regarding placenames, the Irish historian Donnchadh Ó Corrain rejected the notion of somehow ethnically cleansing placenames in Ireland. Renaming, he argued, where it involves the removal of names that have become part of history, should not usually be undertaken.

    <Q>I do not for one moment suggest that the
    names of the chief governors of Ireland should be
    erased from the record or that there should be massive
    gaelicisation of non-Irish names. To my mind,
    such an undertaking is the work of the vandal – like
    that of the vandals who destroyed the Public Record
    of Ireland or dynamited Nelson’s pillar in the name of
    republicanism of one kind or another. That kind of
    renaming would destroy the main strands of our
    history and corrupt the record of the past for
    ideology’s sake. </Q>(Ó Corrain 1992, 37)

    </Quote>

  65. MR,

    You’re right, that last comment was a real knee slapper (which means that it was funny, not that Colm missed his mark), especially the part where they blew the top off Nelson’s column. Yes, MR, you’re a regular Michael Richards. Ho, Ho, Ho.

  66. I don’t think they do it in Cartoon form Alan 😉

  67. I think they should rename it "Hainville" after the beloved Secratary of State.

  68. Gaskin

    It’s a pity my play on words is the only thing you have to launch what only you could call a considered response. I know enough about constitutional law to know the status of a Royal Charter in this country (of which Londonderry is a part) is non-amendable.

    I will not law lessons from a ‘man’ who uses a descriptive term for Northern Ireland (six counties) that ceased to have any formal legitimacy back in 1973.

    Kloot

    Kingstown and Queenstown were towns, not cities. Hence the changes of name you cited.

    Daytripper

    Up yours!

    Hugh

    It’s called Londonderry to illustrate the historical ties the city has with London. The city of New York takes its name from the Duke of York. Or shall we just call it ‘New’?

  69. >>Kingstown and Queenstown were towns, not cities. Hence the changes of name you cited.<<

    Fair nuff

    To be honest, any decision from a judge, goverment minister or who ever is not going to have any effect on what the people who live in the city call it. But its the official name that people are worried about i suppose

  70. Andrew – that’s not quite correct – it’s Called Londonderry because the Company that built it was one of the London Companies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/companies/lc01.shtml

  71. MR,

    Thanks for the useful history link. It appears your source agrees with Reg on the "trappings of colonialism" when it says:

    "It is clear that the Londoners had no stomach for the Plantation of Ulster; they believed it would be troublesome and a bottomless pit as far as money was concerned. It was only when several respectable citizens had been gaoled, fined and further threatened that the City knew it had to bow to the demands of the Crown and commit its resources and ingenuity to colonising part of the territory."

    We had plantations here in America as well in our colonial and post-colonial periods.

  72. I don’t see how the part you quote supports reg’s comments Alan – could you explain?

  73. <em>I will not law lessons from a ‘man'</em>

    By the look of things it’s not law lessons you need most, it’s English lessons!

    Remind me again, where did you obtain your law degree from?

  74. Yours is a good one Chris – has to be – British University with a name like "Queens University Belfast " 🙂

  75. <em>Yours is a good one Chris</em>

    I know, Ollscoil na Riona is a great University. 😉

  76. MR,

    Well, that worked. Now I have you confused by my inscutability, eh?

    OK, let’s see if we can parse this out. I was under the impression that Unionists thought Ireland was part of a United Kingdom, not a colonial adventure. The Irish rebels wre insurrectionists, not natives shaking off the yoke of colonialism. Your referenced source says that argument is wrong, and Reg’s is right.

  77. <Q>I was under the impression that Unionists thought Ireland was part of a United Kingdom, not a colonial adventure.</Q>

    Erm – you are confused …..

    The United Kingdom didn’t exist at the time of the plantation ….. So no Unionist could claim that Ireland was a part of the UK in the early 17th century.

  78. MR,

    What was England & Wales called then?

    Good link

    Bottom line seems to be

    Walled City = Londonderry (per Royal Charter)
    Modern City = Derry (per popular consent)
    County = Londonderry

    Is there a campaign to change the name of the county?

  79. I’m not sure Jaffa what England amd Wales was called then. People didn’t think then in the same terms of reference that we do today. In those days the Monarchy had power, nationalism was very different and Parliament had yet to stamp it’s authority on the British Isles. Certainly plenty in Ireland regarded the "British" Monarchy as their own.

    Cities grow. The Bogside and most of what is now the city were not part of the original city – in just the same way as loads of small towns and villages around Dublin were swallowed up – and Leith in Edinburgh.

    The County name is already contested – by the GAA, by Sinn Fein etc who refer to it as County Derry.
    That attitude is a constant reminder to us that for all the sweet talk of reconciliation the khmer vert side of nationalism is alive and well.

  80. Well, MR, again my thanks. You have removed all confusion from my mind, and you’ve convinced me that there really were "outdated trappings of colonialism" in Ireland after all. FYI, we removed our own outdated trappings of colonialism in 1783 by winning the Revolutionary War (or whatever you call that conflict on your side of the pond).

  81. your retreat is noted Alan 🙂

  82. Chris

    Did you mean Ollscoil na Banríona ? Or has your stay in London dulled your ability to differentiate a king from a queen ?

  83. Andy

    I wanted to give you a trans-Atlantic bitch-slap today, but did not get around to it.

    I’ve been to Derry and I’ve been to London, like ’em both, and never see the reason to mix up the names to DerryLondon or whatever you want it called.

    Since neither you nor I live anywhere near Derry, I claim as much a say in the matter as you have.

    Regards,

    Phantom
    LondonBrooklyn

  84. Phantom,

    You didn’t get the memo. You’ve got to stop calling it Brooklyn and start calling it Kings. tell the people on Staten Island to get used to Richmond, too.

  85. ‘Did you mean Ollscoil na Banríona…’

    By the look of things it’s not lessons on how to structure an argument you need (though that would be helpful), it’s Irish lessons.

    And ‘man’ is used advisedly in your case.

  86. Phantom – Difference is we are discussing a city in Andrew’s country. If Al Quaeda supporters were demanding that the USA alter names of cities in the USA you would be singing from a different hymn sheet 😉

  87. I think they should re-name Craigavon. Nothing to do with colonial branding – I just think the place could do with a rebranding. Lurgadown sounds nice.

  88. <Q>I think they should re-name Craigavon.</Q>

    I think they should raze it 😉

  89. Madradin

    "If Al Quaeda supporters were demanding that the USA alter names of cities in the USA you would be singing from a different hymn sheet"

    The demand in this case comes from the Council which was elected by the citizens of the city – not quite on a par with Al Quaeda.

    You’re like a lot of Unionists – you go on about democracy until it favours Nationalists and then you change your tune.

    One is either a democrat or not. Cherry picking only those outcomes that suit you is blatent hypocrisy.

    I don’t recall hearing much from all these Unionists who are so concerned about democracy when NI didn’t have a one person one vote system and/or elections in Derry City were blatently gerrymandered to return a Unionist council in a city that has always had an overwhelming Nationalist majority.

    When the perverted "democracy" of the Stormont administration was giving Unionists total control – that was fine.

    However, when the UK govt belatedly brought in real democracy and results started to go against Unionists in some areas – they started whinging about how their "rights" are supposedly being ignored.

    I can’t see how since they have a vote like anyone else (and, unlike Nationalists, this right has never been denied to them in NI).

    If the overwhelming majority of the population in Derry want the name changed, then it should be changed.

    Those who disgaree can accept it or, if they feel strongly enough about it, leave.

  90. >>If Al Quaeda supporters were demanding that the USA alter names of cities in the USA you would be singing from a different hymn sheet<<

    If the American population of those cities wanted the name changed – as is the case in Derry – I doubt that he would.

  91. Dear me, what a to-do!

    Referring to the prefix "London" as an "outdated colonial trapping" was not meant as an attack on the Ulster-British/Protestant/etc etc identity. As if I would ever do such a thing!

    Rather, it is my belief that the continued insistence on using this name (relating, as it does to the colonial adventures of the London Guilds) rather than the original Irish placename is an embarrassment to Irish people – of whatever religion/national identity.

    I found the Al Qaida comparison very amusing. No Nazi comparison yet? You guys are losing your touch!

  92. <Q>not quite on a par with Al Quaeda.</Q>

    I didn’t say al quaeda – I said al quaeda supporters …

    Blah Blah Blah Gerrymandering Billy – BOTH sides Gerrymandered …. Nationalist councils gerrymandered – does that justify what the UDA did ?

    Blah Blah Blah One Person One Vote ? OMOV ? That Nonsense LOL There was full enfranchisement for Stormont and Westminster elections – and even when greeners won Stormont and Westminster seats what did they do ? They sulked and boycotted …. Local government ? As many and more Prods were enfranchised by OMOV ….. so drop the MOPE .

    Give it a break whinger! The same deadbeats so incensed about London in front of derry have no problem with London when it comes to their benefits 😉

  93. Reg – The Nazis didn’t commit acts of terrorism on US soil in my lifetime – al Quaeda did.

    And the original Irish placename did not refer to the area now known as Londonderry 🙂 It referred to one small part of it ……

  94. "And the original Irish placename did not refer to the area now known as Londonderry 🙂 It referred to one small part of it ……"

    Mad,

    For goodness sake!

    Anyway, when Derry regains its rightful name "offically", maybe the Waterside can set up Free Londonderry!

  95. Reg – why should all of Modern Londonderry be stuck with a name derived from a dead language that only applied to a tiny settlement over a thousand years ago ? It’s very Khmer Vert ….

  96. Mad: You have an interesting if somewhat selective knowledge of history. Isn’t the "debate" over Derry/Londonderry really a minor issue? I enjoyed the suggestion to call it Stroke City as a compromise, but that name probably wouldn’t be good for tourism. Perhaps a dual reference would accomplish two things: first, it would end the debate for reasonable people and second, it would allow those who feel a need to be outraged to maintain their level of indignation.

  97. Ah, a Khmer Rouge comparison. Excellent! And they didn’t even commit an act of terrorism on US soil in your lifetime!

    On t’other hand, why should the good people of modern Derry be stuck with a prefix for their city which most of them detest and which relates to colonial adventurers from a few centuries ago.

    Dead language? Sin ni cheart!

  98. ‘Modern Derry’?

    No such place.

    ‘prefix for their city which most of them detest’

    As we detest them with a detestation that could only be exacerbated by the realisation of their petty demands.

  99. "No such place."

    Just keep telling yourself that. Your positivism is, yet again, reaching dangerous levels of absurdity.

    "As we detest them with a detestation that could only be exacerbated by the realisation of their petty demands."

    Aye, those dreadful Foylesiders. How dare they hold views on what the official name of their city should be!

  100. ‘How dare they hold views on what the official name of their city should be!’

    How dare they, indeed. They believe in majority rule, yet many vote for parties expressly against majority rule to keep NI as part of the United Kingdom. Hypocritical ***tards.

  101. Billy

    "You’re like a lot of Unionists – you go on about democracy until it favours Nationalists and then you change your tune."

    Could be said of "a lot of " nationalists as well. The issue of the name of a city of a country is not just a matter for those who live in the city. There are rules for changing the name. As I say it is a cty. It is not Much-Farting-on-the-Midden.

    Mad has dealt with the issue if the implication that unionists were never denied votes.

  102. <Q>You have an interesting if somewhat selective knowledge of history.</Q>

    What have I missed out Mahons ? I know it upsets the little green men that I correct their dishonest version of history, but by all means I’ll listen to serious argument.

    It’s factual that there was full enfranchisement for Stormont and Westminster . It’s factual that as many and more working class prods were disenfranchised for local Government elections. OK it goes against the LGM narrative that all prods had votes and lived in mansions and that all RCs were broke, lived in hovels and were denied any votes, but their version of history is a lie.

    Reg – Pol Pot wanted to strip Cambodia of everything foreign and take it back to it’s former "purity" ….
    only a few steps advanced from "‘The necessity for de-anglicising Ireland’."

    It’s interesting that NONE of the LGM who post here have addressed the fact that where nationalists had power in NI they too gerrymandered and discriminated.

  103. "They believe in majority rule, yet many vote for parties expressly against majority rule to keep NI as part of the United Kingdom."

    As is their right!

    "It’s interesting that NONE of the LGM who post here have addressed the fact that where nationalists had power in NI they too gerrymandered and discriminated."

    It’s interesting that this thread is about the removal of the "London" prefix from Derry and that you are blatantly attempting to change the subject!

  104. <Q>It’s interesting that this thread is about the removal of the "London" prefix from Derry and that you are blatantly attempting to change the subject!</Q>

    Erm, try these mentions by LGM Reg –

    Garfie Wednesday 2:16 PM :<Q>it’s northern Ireland (note small n) and in Ulster but was sacrificed on the unionist altar of making sure there was a secure unionist majority. Hence it was jettisoned and is today in the Republic.</Q>

    Billy Thursday 10.49AM :<Q>I don’t recall hearing much from all these Unionists who are so concerned about democracy when NI didn’t have a one person one vote system and/or elections in Derry City were blatently gerrymandered to return a Unionist council in a city that has always had an overwhelming Nationalist majority.</Q>

    Whoops reg – I was responding (Thursday, December 7, 2006 at 01:30PM ) to posts that tried to change the subject – and having blown them away you now decide to have a moan ? 😉
    Typical fenian! ( proper sense of the word)

    Heat and Kitchen matey 🙂

    So – did nationalist discrimination and gerrymandering in NI in any way mitigate the crimes of the UDA, UVF, RHC or RHD ?

  105. >>did nationalist discrimination and gerrymandering in NI in any way mitigate the crimes of the UDA<<

    The UDA probably knew enough about history and politics to realise that no "nationalist discrimination and gerrymandering" ever kept a Unionist majority out of government in any administrative district.

    It’s clear from this thread that certain Unionists still can’t stomach the fact that 50 years of suppressing the majority didn’t work and the Maiden City now has a Nationalist council..

  106. Cunningham – don’t run away from the point – nationalist councils were still discriminating even in the 1990s.
    Does that in any way mitigate the Loyalist crimes?
    There’s plenty on the green side are quick to justify the provos because of alleged injustices.

  107. >>the green side are quick to justify the provos because of alleged injustices.<<

    Whatever about justifying the provos, the injustices were real and substantial.

    Nationalists were deliberately kept out of government in local districts where they formed a majority.

    Is there any parallel on the orange side?

  108. "Whoops reg – I was responding (Thursday, December 7, 2006 at 01:30PM ) to posts that tried to change the subject – and having blown them away you now decide to have a moan ? 😉
    Typical fenian! ( proper sense of the word)"

    I never moan. 😉

    I simply drew attention to your favoured tactics of changing the subject and whataboutery. In a bold move, you have managed to intertwine both in this case – hats off!

    As for the removal of the "London" prefix from Derry being "only a few steps" from the Khmer Rouge…!!

  109. <Q>the injustices were real and substantial.</Q>

    Depends what one means by substantial – substantial enough to Justify La Mon ? I’d appreciate an answer to this question

    And the Terrorism escalated after OMOV was extended to local government……

  110. <Q>I simply drew attention to your favoured tactics of changing the subject and whataboutery.</Q>

    No, you claimed I had raised the issue of gerrymandering "blatantly attempting to change the subject!" I have shown that to be untrue….

    As for the Khmer Vert – lift the mask presented by Adams and co to the world and there’s a VERY ugly face underneath …. FAR worse than anything done by Unionist Governments. La Mon, The Abercorn, Droppin’ Well, Enniskillen, Jean McConville, Robert McCartney.A trail of vicious brutal thuggery that has been glossed over as a fight against "injustice" ….

  111. >>Depends what one means by substantial <<

    Unlike any Nationalist discrimination, these injustices were politically substantial: they kept a majority out of government and denied it its political right.

    There are few injustices within the machinations of politics more substantial than that.

  112. <Q>Unlike any Nationalist discrimination, these injustices were politically substantial: they kept a majority out of government and denied it its political right.</Q>

    They kept A SMALL proportion of the Minority community out of some LOCAL Government – try being honest …. and after that was put right the terrorism escalated….

    Now – you seem to be arguing that only discrimination against nationalists counted ?

    And did the discrimination justify La Mon ?
    I’d appreciate an answer.

  113. jaun – re your ‘outdated trappings of colonialism’, in the sense that you meant it – yes arent they splendid…;)

  114. "As for the Khmer Vert – lift the mask presented by Adams and co to the world and there’s a VERY ugly face underneath …. FAR worse than anything done by Unionist Governments. La Mon, The Abercorn, Droppin’ Well, Enniskillen, Jean McConville, Robert McCartney.A trail of vicious brutal thuggery that has been glossed over as a fight against "injustice" …. "

    I don’t necessarily agree with that comment anyway but do you seriously think that SF is the only section of nationalist Ireland that favours the dropping of the "London" prefix?

  115. >>They kept A SMALL proportion of the Minority community out of some LOCAL Government<<

    >>try being honest <<

    Not only that, I’ll also be specific:

    such as NI’s 2nd largest city.

    and its largest county (amongst other places)

    (Osborne, Robert (1979), The Northern Ireland parliamentary electoral system: the 1929 reapportionment Irish Geography, Vol. 12)

    >>did the discrimination justify La Mon ?<<

    Err.. would you accept "No"?

  116. Gotta concentrate on work. Ill be back this evening.

  117. So how come the terrorism continued after OMOV was granted for local elections ? Be honest – the troubles weren’t about enfranchisement in local government, were they ? SF/IRA didn’t give a damn about that or the nationalist community.

    The difference gained by OMOV was minimal.
    And if as you say (about denial of political rights )
    "There are few injustices within the machinations of politics more substantial than that." where does that leave nationalism – which even in 1990s was shown to be discriminating in it’s councils ?

    Or let’s see what Bernadette Devlin said about discrimination –

    "The policy in both the Protestant-run councils, which are the majority, and the few Catholic-run councils, is to control the way the votes go by having separate housing estates for people of different religions, and by awarding tenancies in the interests of political dominance."

    Has political significance of the the discrimination been exaggerated ?

    <Q>John Whyte’s more measured article, ‘How much discrimination was there under the unionist regime, 1921-68?’ 58 sifted through a range of studies. He concluded, ‘The amount of discrimination proved, or even alleged, to have existed is insufficient to bear the weight that McCann or Farrell place on it. On the other hand, it is quite sufficient to disprove attempts to dismiss it as unfounded or trifling’ </Q>

    Mary Harris,NUI, Galway p 220.

    http://www.stm.unipi.it/Clioh/tabs/libri/7/14-Harris_205-234.pdf