HANOI JANE AND THE IRA
By David Vance On December 29th, 2012Renowned American traitor and much loved lefty actress Jane Fonda didn’t JUST love the enemies of America...turns out she loved the IRA too.
Hollywood actress Jane Fonda lobbied the British Government to intervene and stop the 1981 hunger strike, newly released files reveal. The two-time Oscar winning star sent a telegram to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher urging her to grant the prisoners political status. Her message was sent in May 1981, at the height of a crisis which saw 10 republican prisoners starve themselves to death. The telegram, dispatched to Downing Street, is also signed by her then husband Tom Hayden, a US social and political activist. It states: “Please save the lives of the hunger strikers by granting them political status. “The sanctity of human life must override any political considerations.”
Yes, pity the IRA scum didn’t have the same concern for the sanctity of human life, right, Jane?
No mention of the sanctity of Vietnamese human life David?
Fonda was outrageous in actions she took during the Vietnam War protest, but of course that doesn’t mean the anti-war movement was wrong. Here, her letter seems pretty mild and in the mainstream of international thought which sought to have an end to the episode. The British didn’t get it then (David you don’t get it now) but the hunger strikers managed to achieve what they wanted in terms of gaining sympathy for the IRA (an almost impossible task given their criminal and terrorists acts).
Some already had sympathy for the IRA prior to the Hunger Strikes Mahons.
http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/john-lennon-red-mole2.jpg
Paul – Lennon often adopted radical left stylings that were at times inconsistent with the All We Need is Love theme. On such occasions he was on the radical fringe (Red Mole for God’s sake).
After things such as Bloody Sunday, there was for a time a widespread horror at all things British there in many quarters, in many countries, which went well beyond the precincts of the Irish and their descendents.
The IRA benefited from this, yes.
There are no excuses (beyond being insane or extremely intellectually subnormal) for supporting the evil IRA. Whitelaw was a disgrace for giving these vile criminals special status in the first place. Taking it away was the least to be done for decency.
Aileen
Exactly. The moral malaise lies in those who swallowed IRA propaganda.
Aileen – Support for them was a matter of degree. There were those who supported their campaign of violence which I don’t think had any merit. Then there were those who supported the objective of a united Ireland which had merit. And there were those who supported aspects of their movement which included protest against inequality, British Army and Government transgressions which also had merit. The Hunger Strike allowed the IRA (and SF) more support than they could ever have hoped for.
John Lennon also did a great line in domestic violence. What a hero!
I’m merely stating a fact Mahons . But yes, Lennon was indeed a man of many contradictions.
We are all products of our environment Phantom and we formulate opinions based on empirical experience or imparted information. It’s true that after Bloody Sunday, the Hunger Strikes etc there was revulsion at British Government policy felt in many quarters.
Mahons
Supporting a United Ireland Is. in itself, of degree zero support for the IRA.
Supporting a bunch of vile terrorists just because they commit suicide is still supporting a bunch of vile terrorists
Swallowing propaganda David?
Would’a thunk?
http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=38389
I saw that anger and revulsion up close, including among the heavily Jewish student population I attended university with.
Those were very bad days.
From the time of the Vietnam War until a couple of years, I considered Jane Fonda to be a traitor. It turns out that the real traitor was the guy who brought the US into the Vietnam War, Lyndon Johnson, through the Gulf of Tonkin charade.
I can understand the simple human element of admiring the act of someone who is prepared to sacrifice their own lives for a cause they will not live to see, but not to extend that to support for the violent cause. Northern Ireland’s situation simply did not merit the need for a terror campaign response. Whatever grievances nationalists had were not grave enough to require a violent campaign of killing and bombings.
I agree Colm, to the extent that I did not support an armed campaign. But
that little sectarian sewerthe six counties with unionist majority rule had to, and was always going to, come to an end. Much to the chagrin of some mind!For those who supported or sympathise with the murders and bombings of the IRA – let them face the mothers, fathers and children of those the IRA murdered and justify their beliefs.
To speak for the IRA or to listen to them sympathetically or any terrorist grouping, “Loyalist” or “Republican”) is an insult to those that worked tirelessly for peace.
As for Vietnam and Jane Fonda – I’ll just say one thing – that Harold Wilson should be remembered for keeping us out of that conflict.
More selective condemnation of violence.
The Canadians and British were wise indeed to have not participated in that wrong war.
Frank Words -
Harold Wilson – yes. It was really a continuation of prior policy. When France was losing Indochina, Washington (Eisenhower was prez) wanted to intervene with Britain. Churchill and Eden decided that it would a be “immensely costly and of doubtful value”.
Warmongers take note.
Colm
That is something I have never understood, admiration for sacrifice in itself.
For me, any admiration would have to relate to the cause AND the necessity. Indeed it would have to be a really good cause to take the act from mere stupidity, even if it was not an evil cause.
The notion makes me think of Monty Python and the Kamakazi Higlanders or the bit in the Life of Brian, where he thinks he is going to be saved but the idiots just killed themselves.
Aileen
I was thinking more of people in foreign countries who may be less informed about the situation and only hear on the news about young men dying on hunger strike and without looking or learning more about the whole background simply react to the specifics of the hunger strike event they are hearing about on the news.
Aileen – I support fair treatment for those presently incarcerated in Gitmo. I don’t consider that support for terrorists. Rather it is advocating for a just system. The British system in NI was unjust. The IRA hunger strikers were criminals, but that doesn’t make the system just.
Colm
That again though is something I cannot understand – how being prepared to starve on hunger strike isn’t default egit as opposed to default hero.
Paul McMahon -
“More selective condemnation of violence.”
How so?
Mahons
I support fair treatment for all prisoners too, even murdering evil bastard murdering prisoners. I do not support the evil murdering bastard prisoners, nor would I support any vile campaign to have them categorised as something meaning that they were not base criminals.
The British system in NI was unjust when it gave these evil bastards Special Category status.
And, as I’ve noted – Ho Chi Minh didn’t initially want to be any sort of enemy of the US!
He saw the US as the first anticolonial power, and admired the Declaration of Independence, which I believe he quoted from. He perhaps naively, thought that the US should have been entirely sympathetic to Vietnamese aspirations to be free of France.
He was a nationalist first, and a communist second. We could easily have avoided every minute of that war.
Aileen – The special category status issue hardly the only example of British injustice in NI. I don’t support the misdeeds of the prisoners, though lets recall not all were convicted of murder. I guess what I am trying to say is that they were able to win a public relations war. It doesn’t mean their cause and method was just or right.
Because of ommitting the condemnation of state violence.
Mahons
There are examples of injustice in all jurisdictions – including injustices in the RoI.
It is totally irrelevant that they were not all convicted of murder. They were members of a murdering organisation.
I agree that they were able to win a public relations war, which is a dreadful indictment on the morals and intellectual of humankind.
Paul McMahon -
“More selective condemnation of violence.”
How so?
“Because of ommitting the condemnation of state violence”.
How do you know what my beliefs are on acts of the state? Make a lot of assumptions don’t you.
Mahons -
Sounds like we should have invaded the RoI, rounded up a few thousand Irish willy-nilly, locked them up on a Hebridean Island and then given them “fair treatment”.
Pete
To be fair Mahons doesn’t consider Gitmo fair treatment and has been pretty consistent about it.
I’ve never supported armed struggle but I’ve spoken with former IRA men and asked them why they joined…they aren’t all just murdering scum. I’m not talking about the power elite…I’m talking about the grunts. You take a boy who is coming of age who sees his father interned without cause, house torn apart, living under constant threat of violence and intimidation, mothers, grannies, sisters violated during raids …and some are going to choose to not say “thank you, sir can I have another.” They’re going to fight back. the IRA were wrong to use young boys as their lookouts, etc. in much the way that drug lords use the as runners and the mafia did as well…sucking them in. Aileen, I don’t suppose you could understand that given what happened to you…I imagine it would be very hard for you to see the human side of them…and I don’t blame you…I can’t imagine what you’ve been through and would never want to be in your shoes…but some of these men were ordinary boys once…they, were brothers, sons, fathers…and they were put in extraordinary circumstances and their families could not and would not turn their backs on them. As Bobby Sands funeral cortège snaked through West Belfast…many sisters and mothers I know said to themselves…’there but for the grace of God go I” because they knew how easy it would have been for their young sons and brothers to get sucked into the IRA. Again, I don’t support them, but I do understand (as an outsider) how it happened.
By the way, Aileen…you really are brilliant the way you switch back and forth between such different threads and carry the discussions to higher levels.
I can only comment on what you write and you ommitted state violence.
I apologise if I have it incorrect. I need to go out now but if you would like to expand on the issue I’ll gladly debate it.
Mairin
Please do not patronise me. You are not intending to but you are.
I do not understand how they could do what they did because of my moral cose and NOT because of anything that happened my family specifically. I only needed to know that it happened to ANY family. There was no additional Information as to the morality of terrorism when my mother was slaughter, than when the first murders happened.
What happened to my family gave me nor any member of my family NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER to join some murderous gang. I haven’t exactly said to the murderers of my mother “thank you but can you murder another member of my family circle” ! (which they did).
I’m not patronizing you, Aileen…I just remember many years ago there was a huge ‘fight’ about this and I didn’t want to repeat it. I just wanted to be clear that I’m not being flippant and that I do try to see the other side without the intention of hurting or insulting another, which is what happens on this site to often.
Mairin
You really have me totally stumped now! I can’t think what you mean about taking threads to higher levels.
I an not going to present any false modesty re intelligence. At the same time my general knowledge is about the lowest of all the contributers. That leaves me very little scope for meaningful comment on most threads bar someone triggering some thought in my head that is tangential to the meat of the discussion on hand. It doesn’t stop me though.
I think it is mainly that few topics interest me in themselves but the underlying patterns that get repeated through most aspects of life do.
Paul McMahon
Well, there were many things I ommitted from my short post. For the avoidance of doubt I do condemn “state” violence as I condemn the state abusing power be it Government, police, armed forces, local government etc. This is not an exhaustive list.
Mairin
You are patronising me in that you consider my ability to understand has been affected by what happened to my family. I did not take it that you were intending to insult.
I do get irked by people assuming it has changed my opinions as I have little respect for people who firm their opinions or take positions on things merely because of how it impacts on them personnally. The IRA broke my heart. My moral code and my intellect was unscathed.
Before the bomb I remember many discussions on capital punishment. So many times I would hear the, “well you’d feel very differently if someone murdered someone belonging to you”. Not actually believing anything would happen, I knew that they were talking tosh. What possible relevance to my opposition to capital punishment could me being personnally affected? What new information could there be?
There was great moral failure, that is true. Things were out of control. Some of these men got sucked in at a time in their life when they weren’t fully developed., poverty was high,.fathers were absent working overseas or interned. I’m not excusing them for making the choice to join the IRA…it was a bad choice…but for those who came of age during this time when boys often act on hormones and bravado, they can easily and did believe they were acting to save their families, protecting their homes, etc….for many, it wasn’t really about uniting Ireland…it was more personal…and then came the indoctrination.
Okay, I understand. I’m sorry. It wasn’t so much that I thought your views would have changed but that my understanding of some individuals and my personal connection to them could somehow be painful to you because I haven’t rejected them nor could I even though I fully acknowledge that they belonged to an organization that killed your mother. I think the difference is that leant who live in the nationalist community or like me have close ties…see individuals and not the killing machine.
Not sure why iPad put leant in there…I meant to say something like ‘those’.
Mairin
As I said th Colm once on here, I am thinking of getting IPad it’s own username and sign on here as it seems to want to make its own comments.
I don’t accept that it has anything to do with community at least that community should never be as important as morality.
Re the UVF etc, I see the killing machine, because that is a bigger issue than community.
In the few days after the bomb when we were starting to realise the degree of media interest in the bomb one of my brothers said “We have to be very careful what we say to the press. One wrong word from us and some innocent Catholic gets shot in Belfast tonight”. Of course if he had taken a different course he could have been playing golf with the McAleeses! As it happens, the UVF (or UFF or something), decided to take revenge and ended up murdering not an innocent Catholic but an innocent Protestant (mistaken identity), whose parents another brother knew well and I had the privilege of talking to his mother round the anniversary. There would have been no excuse for us taking that action and no onus on anyone trying to understand if we had.
Speaking of Apple, I just went ” all in ” to the Cult of Mac. I just bought not one, but two.
A Macbook Pro 15 inch with Retina Display for me, and a Macbook Air as a present for my niece.
I pick them up tomorrow morning, and tomorrow night my nearly dead Dell Windows XP gets moved down to the basement.
I spoke to an Apple guy in the service center in Austin Texas and he says that even after Christmas, they have never been so busy.
Your brother was/is wise and a far better man than most. The murder afterwards is awful and reinforces your earlier statement that just because one’s family member is murdered does not justify that family to go out and murder another…the tit-for-tat mentality is infuriating.
I know you’re probably repeating yourself and I appreciate your clarifications or more likely, re-clarifications.
I agree that morality should rise above the community ideally…I think at the time things got really crazy…after Bloody Sunday and into the 70s, there was a siege mentality and I know many on the nationalist side who lived there everyday would correct me and say it wasn’t a mentality, it was a fact…and morality went out the window. People truly believed the state had no morals…the powers that be knew they were interning innocent men but they thought they could scare the shite out of them and put ‘manners’ on them. It backfired and morality on all sides state, unionist, nationalist all went out the window. Save for people like yourself who were the least heard at that time. I don’t know how deep the collusion runs between the state and the killing machines but that to me is the biggest moral failure….that the state was responsible for at least some and possibly many of these murders is a huge moral failure and kept the fires burning far more than they had to. Not that one who is murdered by the state is more horrible than one murdered by another. The abuse of power is repugnant.
It’s clearer to me now why you find people who vote Sinn Fein so repugnant…I didn’t really understand before this.
Phantom
I recently got the 15 in Mac Book Pro with the max everything just over £3,000. I am still scared of it. Just got the Mac Book for Dummies and hope it will sort me out. I am hoping that this means I don’t need another laptop for 10 yrs.
My Dell laptop just got slower and slower.
My Dell is nearly dead too…not sure what I’ll do about it. I made the mistake of going to Apple on Christmas Eve…I left before I tore all my hair out…I wanted to save at least enough for a pony tail.
Wowee. So we basically have the same machine
Just learn one new thing every day and you will be fine
I got the ” One to One ” feature whereby you can go to the Apple Store for short classes and have ypur queations answered in person there.
http://www.apple.com/retail/learn/one-to-one/
Aileen
If you have any qustions post ‘em here and someone will know the answer.
I can’t wait to get my mitts on this thing.
Mairin
I don’t accept that my family were in any way special or unique in not wanting to do to others what was done to us. That is a fiction pedalled by the terrorists (not directing that at you). The IRA terrorists have been more successful in getting their bloodlust justified. The UVF etc try it too.
It is not good or wonderful not to turn to terrorism or supporting it if you are a victim of terrorism, it is merely not evil.
We weren’t/aren’t wonderful. We are merely not evil.
I am always repeating myself but I can’t be accused if being alone in that on ATW
This tread is surreal!
Phantom
Thanks for the offer.
I was thinking about the one to one but wasn’t sure if they could dumb done far enough for me.
I do love the fact that it springs to life virtually instantaneously and closes down the same.
I am also childishly delighted by the magnetic thingy for the mains lead. One of my friends has admitted to having “laptop envy”. I hold him responsible for me buying this one. Although all my friends and family who have Macs looked down at me with pity when I was a PC girl.
What a lovely uncle!
Mairin
Come over to the bright side
Thanks for the offer
Mairin
Me and her have a Blackberry Bold, Blackberry Playbook, Dell laptop, Apple ipod (me), Apple Iphone, Apple Ipad, Dell laptop (her). And we both use PCs at work. Let every flower bloom!
Oops that rouge “thanks for the offer” was an editing mistake and repeat of a response to Phantom.
Hard to navigate the wee box in Ipad
Aileen., I nearly finished a post that said there were many nationalists like you and your family and didn’t follow through with the post…most people were stuck in the middle…I was hesitant because I thought it might be perceived that I was speaking for someone other than myself. I cannot speak for the nationalist community.
The reason I came to this site was to challenge my beliefs but more to gain understanding. I don’t look at it as debate but discussion. I don’t see posting here as win or lose. But I have no stake in the game.
I think people are going to keep on voting Sinn Fein because they see it as the ends the mean…a united Ireland. I think they can put the immoral murders aside because they see that over the years, the state has done the same thing.
Peter, I have a feeling I’m going to have a multi-computer household too!
Unfortunately there are always going to be deluded idiots like Fonda.
She’s not the first and won’t be the last.
I remembered writing this one way back in 2008 –
http://www.junk-male.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/foot-in-mouth-disease.html
The only thoughts about the dead hunger strikers i have is for their victims.
JM
Basically Rose McGowan is saying “I am an evil bitch!”
Yep.
She would have been perfect for the leading role in that movie ‘Clueless’!
Your brother was/is wise and a far better man than most.
Agreed, Mairin.
“A Macbook Pro 15 inch with Retina Display for me, and a Macbook Air as a present for my niece.”
Nice present! Those Macbook pros are probably way overkill for most people. I don’t think people appreciate how crazy fast and capable those Macbook Airs actually are – I use an 11″ MBA both for my day job and just general computing and more than happy with it.
Plug it into an external monitor, trackpad and keyboard and every now and then you have to remind yourself that everything you’re doing is actually running on this itty bitty wedge that’s about the size of an iPad and fits into a small satchel. If they ever bring one out with the same battery life as an iPad I’ll queue up for that.
My space tends to disorder at the best of times, and one side advantage will be removing the replaced tower / keyboard / cords / media whateveritis and replace the with one thing, for what hopefully will be a more orderly desk and floor.
Such excitement! So heady!
I never knew there were so many free market fans in here.
Frank
Are you aware just how much Apple is ripping you off? There is a price premium of at least 33%. Compare tablet prices and get back to me.
I was more or less decided on a Mac Book Air. I have coveted one for ages and they look like a big silver After Eight mint.
The last conversation before I plunged convinced me that as I had the IPad for things portable, I woukd be better off with the Pro.
The one thing I miss about my 17in Dell laptop is the 17 inches. I wish I could magic my Mac Book a couple of inches bigger.
If my plans for retirement come about, I will need to buy a phone. People say that the S3 is better than the new IPhone but then others say as I have so much Apple stuff that i’d be better with the IPhone.
Peter
I’m happy to pay 33% more for the beat. And I’ve never met a dissatisfied Apple customer. I don’t feel ripped off, and I charged $4000 to them a few hours ago.
When I bought my Ipad, a work friend said that I paid way too much. He then bought another tablet for $250 or whatever and has been dissatisfied with it, while I still very much like the Ipad.
Price is only one factor.
–
Aileen
I likely would have bought a Macbook Air for me if they made a bigger one.
Peter,
“Are you aware just how much Apple is ripping you off? There is a price premium of at least 33%. Compare tablet prices and get back to me.”
At the moment nobody is selling equivalent quality tablets and computers at the same price, never mind cheaper. Yes you can get cheaper stuff, and you get what you pay for. In any case I need them for work though I would want them anyway.
Some corporations are slowly shifting to an Ipad system for traveling employees, and lots of companies – airlines, hotels and restaurants – are using Ipads too. These are careful buyers who pay for what they see as a better product.
Apple groupies out in force. Frank, my BB 7inch tablet beats all others for value. Check it out.
Too small. Live a little. Throw it out and get an Ipad.
I must be the most computer luddite person on ATW. I don’t even ahve a smartphone of any kind let alone air tablet I thingy touch screen gizmos. I only have one Dell laptop and that is the extent of my foray into the dazzling world of modern technology !
Fonda is no worse than the people who vote for the ira in their droves.
Anyway, Happy New Year to everyone, except of course the voters of mass murderers.
You know who you are.