THE LABOUR CHOICE….
By David Vance On February 17th, 2013Meet John O’Farrell.
He is a comedian. He is also the Labour Party candidate in the forthcoming Eastleigh by-election.
Here he is writing about Mrs Thatcher….
‘In October 1984, when the Brighton bomb went off, I felt a surge of excitement at the nearness of her demise and yet disappointment that such a chance had been missed. ‘This was me – the pacifist, anti-capital punishment, anti-IRA liberal – wishing that they had got her. “Why did she have to leave the bathroom two minutes earlier?” I asked myself over and over again…!
I wonder what voters will think of Mr O’Farrell’s desire to see the former UK Prime Minister murdered? Has he subsequently offered an apology for this murderous wish? I note that Labour are trying to suggest that these were comments made years ago. Well, they were actually written years ago so one assumes there was a degree of calculation behind what he said. He has the opportunity to now APOLOGISE for his wicked words….let’s be hearing from you, John?
I suspect that there will be quite a few who would agree with it.
I’m sure he wasn’t the only person on the left, or from Scotland, or a miner, or a trade unionist etc who wished she had of been taken out.
I admire him for his honesty, if nothing else.
That there may be others who share his view that his nation’s prime minister be murdered by terrorists, or who shrug at those killed or wounded on that occassion. There may also be others who would join him in wishing that British citizens in the Falklands be subject to a foreign military dictatorship. However such people are deserving of each other’s company, and also deserve to remain out of office.
Mahons
Who are you to decide who is worthy of office? The only people who can decide that is the people of Eastleigh. Their views are the only ones that count in this situation.
Chris – Rubbish. We can all evaluate someone’s worth for office. Are you telling me you limit your judgment of political figures to only those you vote for? Of course you don’t.
If the voters of Eastleigh chose him that is of course their right, and it is my right to say they would be wrong for doing so.
He is a thug. There’s another bit in his godawful book where he discusses with a friend whether or not to put a brick through someone’s window because they had a Conservative Party poster in there.
Still anything that keeps him away from comedy must be a good thing.
Mahons
I have disagreed with a great many but I have never argued that someone shouldn’t be allowed to run for office or commented on that aspect at all.
I firmly believe that the people are soverign.
Hope this is well publicised and the voters get to see what is on offer.
Chris- and apparently you haven’t read what I have written, he’s well entitled to run if he so choses.
Mahons
Apparently you haven’t read what I have written either
“I have never argued that someone shouldn’t be allowed to run for office or commented on that aspect at all.”
I think any reasonable person could see that your comment of “deserve to remain out of office” falls within the realm of “that aspect”
Wouldn’t you?
No, although you are becoming less clear so I am unsure what you are trying to say.
He doesn’t deserve to be elected based on his written comments. That is not to say he can’t run or be elected.
Mahons
You commented on someones fitness for office, that is something I don’t agree with even for the people I oppose. I have always argued that the people are the only ones who get to decide who is fit for office or not.
Priceless opening, David.
Chris – Once again, rubbish. The voters provide numbers, they do not by electing someone make that person fit or unfit. The people get to decide, and they can be wrong and elect appalling individuals. And we (who also happen to be people) can praise or damn their decision as we see fit.
The response is all the more wicked because people were murdered in that bomb.
Mahons
So who gets to decide if a person is fit for office if not the people who elect them?
Everyone can offer an opinion as to fitness.
Otherwise are we to suggest that every elected person if fit for office? Of course not.
Mahons
So nobody then? If everyone decides then nobody does.
The fact that Labour have selected a comic as their candidate tells you all you need to know about what they think of their chances of winning. And of course they were well aware of this skeleton and the high probability that it would be exposed.
The Tory candidate is well to the right of her party leader on the usual issues, so the Lib Dems must be thinking they have a decent chance of holding on, despite the Chris Huhne scandal.
Chris – I am not saying everyone decides. Everyone has a right to evaluate a person’s fitness. Not everyone is correct in that evaluation.
Chris
Mahons is not deciding if this candidate is fit for office. Mahons does not have the deciding vote,as you rightly point out the people of Eastliegh will make that decision. Are you claiming however that no-one else outside of Eastleigh is even entitled to express their opinion on the matter ?
Colm
Not at all, I am simply pointing out the arrogant self righteousness of certain people who believe they are better equipped to decide who is fit to represent Eastleigh. It is the people of that area to decide who is “fit” to represent them.
Mahons
So who is correct then? Why are you afraid to write what you really think? I’m a lawyer as well, evasive answers are nothing new.
Chris
There was nothing remotely arrogant about Mahons comment, indeed he made it clear he did not think Mr O Farrell should be barred from running for office, just expressing his own opinion. It is you who is being the arrogant self righteous one here.
I’m not a lawyer but I am clear that o’Farrell isn’t fit to represent a pack of pigs let alone Eastleight. Has he apologised yet for his tasteless endorsement of attempted murder?
David
That is your opinion, nothing more but at least you are man enough to say it and stand over it rather than hinting at it.
Colm
I haven’t made any comment on his fitiness for office, nor would I.
//I’m sure he wasn’t the only person on the left, or from Scotland, or a miner, or a trade unionist etc who wished she had of been taken out.//
Maybe even some who were closer to her world view. Certain Ulster Unionists of the day denounced her as a traitor.
David — You normally mock people who apologise or call for apologies. How many of your posts have had the title “Sorry seems to be the easiest word”?
Here’s one, two, three. I stopped counting after that!
Chris
You berate Mahons as arrogant for saying this man is not fit for office but then praise David’s honesty for saying the same thing. Make your mind up.
No Colm
I berate the self righteouness which states that the actual people who elect the MP are not those who evaluate him/her
“The voters provide numbers, they do not by electing someone make that person fit or unfit.”
As if the electorate of Eastleigh were mere sheep
I praised David for his honesty in just coming out and saying it straight as opposed to just hinting at it.
Two different things Colm.
Chris – I am sorry you could no chose a more honorable profession.
I suppose someone could read what I wrote above and be clueless as to my opinion of the candidate. I would also suppose that someone has an extra chromosome. So allow me to be clear, again. The gentleman running for office who wished his nation’s own Prime Minister to have been killed and wished to have fellow citizens subject to the rule of Argentina’s Military Junta should not be elected.
Chris – Really? The people who have a vote in that election do in fact have the right (and duty) to evaluate him. Nothing I wrote indicated otherwise. But if they do evaluate him and elect him I disagree with their choice as being the correct one.
“Chris – I am sorry you could no chose a more honorable profession”
So are a great many others
“suppose someone could read what I wrote above and be clueless as to my opinion of the candidate. I would also suppose that someone has an extra chromosome”
Ah, Liberal wit how amusing!
“The gentleman running for office who wished his nation’s own Prime Minister to have been killed”
A popular opinion for a great many at the time.
“wished to have fellow citizens subject to the rule of Argentina’s Military Junta”
Point of order but at the time of the conflict the people of Islas Malvinas were not British citizens and did not receive full British citizenship until after the conflict when the British passed the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983.
“should not be elected”
Your opinion and the opinions that count will have a vote in Eastleigh.
Chris – I doubt that the bombing that the Prime Minister escaped and resulted in the death of five people and the injury of many others was popular among people in the United Kingdom at the time. Perhaps you can point me to some source that supports your claim?
And I doubt further that the loss of the Falklands and wishing one’s own nation a military defeat would have been popular among the people of the United Kingdom as well.
Interesting point about the citizenship issue, I did not know that.
Chris
You are all over the place here with your illogciality. You have attacked Mahons for making EXACTLY the same comments as David made, and then tried to claim David was being honest but Mahons was only hinting. Utterly ludicrous. The truth is, you don’t feel able to attack David the host of this site for expressing the same views as mahons who is merely a contributor. You are tempering your responses based on the man not the ball.
“Chris – I doubt that the bombing that the Prime Minister escaped and resulted in the death of five people and the injury of many others was popular among people in the United Kingdom at the time. Perhaps you can point me to some source that supports your claim?”
Mahons, read any of the books or newspapers articles at the time and you will see some of the comments regarding it. Comments similar to the one the candidate above made.
After the Guilford and Birmingham bombings there was a huge anti-Irish backlash in working class areas of England. No such backlash occurred after Brighton.
“And I doubt further that the loss of the Falklands and wishing one’s own nation a military defeat would have been popular among the people of the United Kingdom as well. ”
I never said that it was. Care to point out where I said that?
“The truth is, you don’t feel able to attack David the host of this site for expressing the same views as mahons who is merely a contributor. You are tempering your responses based on the man not the ball.”
Not at all Colm
David is a big boy and I have no problem engaging in as robust a debate with David as I would with Mahons. In the past myself and David have had quite a few fiery debates.
I dislike the term “fit for office” because for me a denotes an underlying moral rightousness and class component. I believe that anyone is fit for office if the people of that election decide they are. That doesn’t mean other reps have to deal with them or anything like that but in my eyes the people are still soverign.
The truth is, you don’t feel able to attack David the host of this site
To be fair, I don’t think that’s the case at all.
I dislike the term “fit for office” because for me a denotes an underlying moral rightousness and class component. I believe that anyone is fit for office if the people of that election decide they are. That doesn’t mean other reps have to deal with them or anything like that but in my eyes the people are still soverign.
Yeah, that sums up my thoughts too. There is an insufferable liberal snobbishness about declaring other citizens unfit for office. Although Mahons – to his credit – does not wish to prevent anyone from running for election, there are many in norn iron who most definitely do. They are not democrats in any way, shape, or form.
Chris
OK I will put it simply.
Mahons said this man was unfit for office and you attacked him for arrogance and making a judgement call he was not entitled to make.
David said this man was unfit for office and you praised his robust honesty.
I have not yer read a believable explanation as to why both individuals elicited different reactions from you.
Colm
Ok, for the last time
Mahons alluded to but did not come out and say it, I asked him for clarity and yet again he used evasive answers without openly coming out and saying it.
David came right out and said it
My response to David was thus
“That is your opinion, nothing more”
“but at least you are man enough to say it and stand over it rather than hinting at it.”
Are you really telling me you can’t see the difference between the two? Both David and Mahons both believe this gentleman is “unfit” for office yet David at least came out and said it straight rather than skirting around the issue.
Eastleigh is a Limp Dem very safe seat. ie the populace is pretty much wall to wall lefties. The coallition is deeply unpopular and I’m guessing that the previous Lib Dem MP’s conviction being essentially dishonesty, won’t go down well.
Given that Brits vote tribally ie it’s ALWAYS one of the pro EU big three parties that leaves Labour. I wish they’d wise up and vote UKIP but it’s not going to happen.
Thats why my £5 is on this repellant Labour creature to win. If he does I win £90 if someone else wins I won’t be too disappointed. So bring it on Eastleigh.
It’s my way to make a contest between various pro EU fools a little more interesting.
Chris
But the point is Mahons did not skirt around the issue. Your original argument with him was precisely because he said this man was not fit for office. He did not tiptoe around it he said it openly and defended it. Indeed your first few responses to Mahons was precisely to admonish him for expressing that opinion. Yet when David said precisely the same thing your reaction changes. Anyone reading this thread from the start can see that.
Forgot to mention even the council is 20 limp dems to 4 others.
Farage should have put his money where his mouth is and stood for UKIP.
O’Farrell’s a comedian?!
I’ve only ever seen him on Grumpy Old Men, and assumed from that he’s a professional twat.
You can have more than one occupation. Boris is mayor of London but also a Tory clown and serial adulterer.
Brilliant documentary on BBC recently about the great Nye Bevan. Those that came after him betrayed his vision.
Petr
You can only betray something you personally pledged to practise.
//I believe that anyone is fit for office if the people of that election decide they are.//
I think I could list several dozen people who held office for which they were/are patently unfit. And that’s even without leaving Ireland.
Chris, do you really believe all those Unionist MPs and councillors under the old Stormont regime were fit to hold democratic office – you know, the ones who blatantly said they wanted their (Catholic) constituents to get the hell out of the country?
Other elected politicians were not only unfit to hold office, they were unfit to walk the streets, as many of them were war criminals. The people are legally entitled to vote in who they want, including criminals, the undemocratic and the imbecilic – and they exercise that right often enough.
//was popular among people in the United Kingdom at the time. //
Well, in certain parts of the United Kingdom at least it definitely was!
Colm — It’s been a monumental betrayal.
Chris – I couldn’t be clearer. The truth is you sympathize with O’Farrell’s comments and support the actions of the IRA during the troubles, and those who were engaged in its practices. Thus you defense of his candidacy.
Noel – I would think the attempted terrorist murder of the Prime Minister and the killing and maiming of people had support in the usual sections, but that those who would resort to terrorist violence remain a minority.
A further point, when O’Farell wrote the words it wasn’t an off the cuff remark uttered at the time in the heat of controversey, but rather a deliberate written position well after events had taken place in which he wished the Prime Minister to have been killed. That is further evidence of his unfitness.
Well said Mahons, totally agree.
Noel
Regarding the Unionist politicians from the old Stormont regime. Where they fit to hold office? Of course! Where they sectarian bigots? Of course.
Mahons
I don’t sympathise with his comments actually as I am not a pacifist, an opponent of capital punishment or anti-IRA.
His position regarding Thatcher is nothing to do with my “defence” of him. I support the right of everyone putting themselves before the electorate and letting them decide. I am also opposed to liberal self righteousness regarding who is and isn’t “fit” for office. It’s a little too close to the UUP’s “Decent people vote UUP” style for my liking.
mahons
I think it was more just a trendy lefty stand up comic routine typical of a certain Thatcher hating period within the ‘cool’ end of the British live entertainment circuit as exemplified by comic like Ben Elton. It was a reaction to what was then seen as the firmly Right wing dominance of a political culture supported by a Thatcher loving tabloid press.
Chris
So you oppose ‘liberal self righteousness’ when preaching about fitness for office(Mahons) more than the same thing from a ‘Right wing Moralising’ aspect (David) ?
Colm
I don’t understand what you mean. I disagree with a lot of Davids posts. On this issue I disagree with both David and Mahons.
Speaking of the IRA and the like, Gerry Adams has recently joined Twitter and has talked about his teddy and his rubber ducky. I’m not making it up!!!
https://twitter.com/GerryAdamsSF
Petr
Has to be a piss take.
There’s an interesting reductio ad absurdum here: someone apparently supporting the right of anyone to be elected to office also apparently supports the right to deny them that office by killing them.
After all, the IRA didn’t only call politicians unfit for office, they killed a few of them too, thus deeming them unfit even to live.
And it could in fact be argued that in at least a few of the cases they were entitled to do so. Killing the murderer Kevin O’Higgins springs to mind.
Basically, none of us disputes even the moral rightfulness of political assassination in certain cases. So enough of this indignation about someone calling a politician unfit to hold office.
Noel
If you check my comments it is very simple. I believe that everyone is fit to hold office if the electorate so choose them. That said for every action their will be a reaction.
I would have supported the assasination of Thatcher at the time for a multitude of reasons, the main being that the IRA were at war with the British and she was their leader.
It had nothing to do with her being fit to hold office.
So, stop engaging in non sequitur arguments.
If he had the votes, Pol Pot would be fit for office?
Chris — That’s what I thought but spoke to a SF comrade at the weekend’s Counter Summit and he said it’s definitely real!
If he was elected by the people? Yes.
Petr
I don’t believe it, either that or he is off his meds.
haha I know! But seriously.. ask someone who’d know. The person who told me would know and wasn’t pulling my leg.
Apparently there is a lot of that going around, one guy here thinks Pol Pot would have been fit for office if elected.
I’ll ask a few of the lads but I would doubt it.
Mahons
If the people elect him, then he is. They decide what who is or isn’t fit to represent them.
Chris
Obviously the term ‘fit for office’ means nothing practically to you then. It is just a manifestation of numbers – like the most widely bought pop record.
OK, now is very clear what should have been clear from the start:
mahons uses “fit” to mean suitable in a moral sense.
Chris uses “fit” to mean legally entitled, or entitled according to democratic principles.
As I said: we all believe in democratic principles, but that those principles aren’t so strong that certain politicians should not be killed when in office, thus denying the electorate their choice.
Goodnight.
Silly argument
If an elected official is say a thief – even more than the normal politician is – or if he is otherwise a traitor, or immoral – he is unfit for office.
In the US anyway, voters do not have all say in the matter. An unfit officeholder can be removed by means of impeachment if he is proven – yes – unfit for office.
The people rule up to.a point as they can vote in the most unfit son of a bitch in the land to misrepresent them, subject to the above.
We have here a dispute between two legal eagles, and I rule in favor of mahons here, as this was a nonjuudicial setting, where were attempting to speak plain English and not tortured legalities.
I never said someone wasn’t legally entitled to an office if voted in. This Mr. Gaskin recognizing what could be said of O’Farrell could be said of other politicians he supports.
Noel
Exactly!
Phantom
We are not talking about the USA and we are not in a court of law and you aren’t a judge lol.
Mahons
It has nothing to do with politicans I support
Agreed, Phantom.
//An unfit officeholder can be removed by means of impeachment if he is proven – yes – unfit for office.//
A TD can also be removed from the Dáil of prevented from standing for election for different reasons. The great James Larkin (yes, he formerly of Sing Sing NY) was kicked out and his TD office revoked, fit and all as he was.
Chris attacked Mahons for expressing the same opinion as David. Chris is a hypocrite as well as a sycophant when it suits him.
Colm
I don’t know what’s up your ass tonight! I didn’t attack anyone, stop being so melodramtic. How exactly am I a hypocrite? How exactly am I a sycophant?
Colm — You are behaving oddly tonight.
No I am not behaving oddly, you two are
You’re behaving like a drunken prom Queen
Chris
Read the thread, and you will see your own faults. Your attack on Mahons was totally unwarranted and had no logical merit. Admit it and save your reputation.
Colm
This has to stop, I have reread it 3 times. I don’t have any faults on this thread. I did’t attack Mahons, I challenged him and for that matter you aren’t the UN. If Mahons has an issue he can raise it himself. It had lots of logical merit and you’re behaving like a sockpuppet now. These has been no harm done to my reputation by my opinion of you as a serious poster has certainly dropped.
“You’re behaving like a drunken prom Queen ”
Oh yeah ?. Drunken prom queens are normally buzy fighting off hunky American sporty jocks not stroppy British/Irish armchair slobs
“I don’t have any faults on this thread.”
Oh Pardon me St Christopher. Get over yourself. I have correctly exposed your 2 faces. You have lost the debate. You slagged off Mahons and sucked up to David despite both expressing the same opinion. You exposed yourself as a sycophantic creep.
I think Colm’s been hitting the hooch!
Holy moley
Where did this come from?
Let me open a bottle of Brooklyn Stout as I plan out the week.
http://brooklynbrewery.com/brooklyn-beers/seasonal-brews/brooklyn-dry-irish-stout
I’ll put on my flac jacket
I’m actually not sure if that isn’t someone impersonating Colm, it sounds a lot like Percy.
Chris — Could well be. This doesn’t sound like Colm, and does sound a bit like the freak show Percy.
Not again….
And yes I’ve not seen Colm speak like this,at 3am yet….
Not again….
And yes I’ve not seen Colm speak like this,at 3am yet….
Is the issue now that someone isn’t fit to post?
Mahons — Who the hell do you think you are suggesting…. I jest!
Seriously though, was this Colm, because it doesn’t sound like him. Either it’s an off-colour Colm or as Chris suggests Percy is back in town.
It was the anti-Colm
How about the anti-Gaskin? Or do we think backtracking and clinging to the tortured stance that he intended “fit” for office as merely defined by being elected is what he was arguing before he went off the deep end as the campaign chair for Pol Pot?
Chris’ was a tortured and legalistic response.
But it still didn’t exactly sound like Colm. Maybe it was. Everyone here reaches for the luger at some point.
Mahons
I stand over my reasoned responses, no anti-Gaskin here!
Where’s Colm?
It would be funny if Percy had been posing as Cold and Chris.
*Colm, not cold.
Petr
No, that was me as my IP will support should David decide to check.
Sure Chris. I was joking!
Well I seem to be a topic of discussion here.
I can confirm it was me last night. I haven’t been taken over by Percy or anyone else. Yes it’s true I was not my normal sweet and reasoned self – I can’t be Mr nice guy all the time, but no I wasn’t drunk or ill, or anything else, just a bit ruder than I ought to be for which I’d like to say sorry to Chris. I do stand by the gist of my argument if not the manner with which I expressed it.
The one and only Colm !
Colm – Good man yourself. I don’t think you were rude but to each his own.
Colm: “You exposed yourself as a sycophantic creep.”
Mahons: ” I don’t think you were rude”
Wow!
Petr – OK that one could have been toned down. But I think non-candidate Colm is coming in for unnecessary emphasis on a thread that is supposed to be discussing the comments of candidate O’Farrell.
Mahons — Agreed.
Guys, let’s just leave it and move on.
//discussing the comments of candidate O’Farrell.//
Indeed. Actually the comments of candidate O’Farrell arguing that someone wasn’t fit to stay (alive) in office.