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MUSLIMS MAKING A SPLASH!

By ATWadmin On December 9th, 2006

What do you make of the news that a London Council has decided to hold "Muslim Only" swimming lessons? Non-Mussies are welcome, of course, just so long as the follow the strict Islamic approved dress code of swimming shorts that hide the navel and extend below the knee. Women are completely banned from attending but have their own special swimming sessions outside opening hours. During their sessions bathers must be covered from head to foot with their swimming costume covering their body from the neck down to the ankle.

The local Croydon Mosque has defended the introduction of Muslim-only swimming sessions at the council pool. A spokesman said: "Muslims are not allowed to show intimate parts of their body. This is non-negotiable. Muslims have as much right to go swimming as anyone else."

Just a few points.

1. Who wants to see Muslims "intimate parts"? They need to get over themselves.

2. Since when does a Mosque determine what  is "non negotiable" in this nation?

3. Muslims should be given absolutely no special privileges. Croydon Council is a disgrace for allowing this dhimmitude. Croydon Council is a CONSERVATIVE-dominated Council. Tells you all you need to know about just how spineless that Party has become.  

106 Responses to “MUSLIMS MAKING A SPLASH!”

  1. "Muslims are not allowed to show intimate parts of their body. This is non-negotiable. Muslims have as much right to go swimming as anyone else."

    Crazy argument. It’s not like they aren’t allowed in the pool unless they put on a thong or something.

  2. This is the absence of tolerance. Why should anyone have to adhere to this dress code, muslims can if the want but why should others. Perhaps the banning of women should be challanged under equality regulations.

  3. I’m sure they pee in the pool too!

  4. Aileen,
    men are already banned from women-only swimming hours so I doubt the legislation would give a different result here.

  5. Garfield I was thinking of them being banned to after hours as opposed to segregation of the sexes, It’s a murky area.

  6. Aileen,

    Just what is ‘after hours’? surely if the pool is open, it’s open, and ‘in hours’…

    The only thing murky is the water…

  7. "Women are completely banned from attending but have their own special swimming sessions outside opening hours."

    Don’t ask me. I depends on how anti-social the timing is as to whether women are being sidelined.

  8. This is sad, but not on the scale of Birmingham City Council with its ludicrous "Winterval" in place of Christmas. To be fair, this has been criticised by muslims who are quite content with Christmas:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/13/nxmas13.xml

  9. Doesn’t this all get very complicated? As the UK Muslim population increases, this type of conflict of tradition will happen more and more often.

    This particular case raises several issues. Firstly, are Christian traditions (not being veiled, celebrating Christmas, freedom of worship etc) respected in Muslim countries? I’d have to say in many cases no.

    Secondly, if we see ourselves as a Christian nation, do we not have a Christian duty to respect the traditions of others? Conversely if we see ourselves as a secular nation, do we not have a duty to shed a little enlightenment on such archaic and chauvanistic practices by making one rule for all in public places but allowing freedom of religious expression in places of worship and the home?

    Thirdly, if we insist on public nudity being a criminal offence with no proper justification, do we have a right to lecture Muslims on covering up?

    Unfortunately none of the mainstram parties seem able to take a stance on such matters. It is perhaps unsurprising therefore when extremists such as the BNP hoover up significant protest votes which the govt ignore at their peril.

  10. HA

    <i>allowing freedom of religious expression in places of worship and the home</i>

    Allowing? Gee thanks.

  11. Just saw this from the new partner for peace.

    Last Updated: 09/12/2006 15:00

    Iran calls for debate on Holocaust

    The Holocaust is now a subject of serious debate, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said today. Iran has invited scholars from 30 countries to attend a conference starting on Monday about the Holocaust, in which six million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

    "For 60 years talking about the Holocaust was a crime in the West but now there is a serious debate about the Holocaust in the media and also in political and popular meetings," state television quoted Mr Ahmadinejad as saying.

  12. Yes Henry allowing. There are plenty of nations who simply wouldn’t allow you to build a church, chapel or synagogue. Not so long ago in Britain you could be executed for being a priest, a witch or an atheist.

    Freedom of religious belief is a relatively recent phenomenon and something to be cherished — freedom of religious expression however takes us down a much murkier path.

    Let’s just take the Republic of Ireland as one example. Much of my family (all Protestants) lived there through the worst decades of domination by the Roman Catholic church. They were denied the right to divorce, or have a decent unfettered health service, had their viewing and reading restricted and weren’t even allowed to buy condoms, all because of the notion of religious expression. They weren’t ‘allowed’ rights that other westerners took for granted because religion had got out of the box marked ‘harmless superstition’ and into government.
    Exactly how bad it all was in terms of clerical abuse etc only became clear much later, but few outside of the RC hierarchy would regard those times as being ‘the good old days.’
    The Republic today has plenty of problems but at least religious domination isn’t one of them.

  13. Henry Mr.Ahmadinnerplate, as with all conspiracy theorists, should be roundly ignored.
    We have thousands of people insisting that the moon landings never happened, aliens landed at Roswell and 9/11 was carried out by the US govt. They can bluster and fabricate all they want but it doesn’t matter a damn. History happened and denying it doesn’t invalidate it.

  14. HA,

    "As the UK Muslim population increases, this type of conflict of tradition will happen more and more often."

    This type of conflict is nothing new and it is not unique to Muslims. The tortured logic of the spokesman for Croydon mosque is par for the course from a very common religious mindset which sees ‘freedom of religion’ as belonging to themselves alone.

    The winner in these conflicts is ultimately secularism, every time. Freedom of religion provides the only way out of the impasse, but freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.

  15. Well said Frank. Couldn’t agree more.

  16. HA

    "Mr.Ahmadinnerplate, as with all conspiracy theorists, should be roundly ignored"

    I’m afraid that is both irresponsible and impossible. In fact it is delusional. He is in a position of power and has told us he wants to destroy Israel. He is developing the means.

    But even leaving that aside for a while what are we going to do when Muslim pressure on local government starts to interfere with the teaching of history and the vile nonsense that will be produced by "scholars from 30 countries" is pushed onto the syllabus. Impossible? I don’t think so. It might be easier for us to ignore preparations for the next Holocaust if we conspire with lies about the last one.

    It is utter idiocy to discuss the Islamic threat in the context of religion in general.

  17. Peter

    I did hear somone from Birmingham Council say that it had all been taken out of context. That they were not outlawing Christmas. That Winterval was a wider endeavour of which Christmas was a part. Of course, that may all be just someone rowing for the shore.

  18. Henry,

    "But even leaving that aside for a while what are we going to do when Muslim pressure on local government starts to interfere with the teaching of history"

    Because all Muslims deny the holocaust, right Henry?

    Anyway I guess we will do the same things we do when Christians deny the Holocaust, and the same things we are doing now in response to Christians interfering with the teaching of science.

  19. Frank

    "Because all Muslims deny the holocaust, right Henry?"

    I await with interest the negative reaction from moderate Islam to President Ahmadinejad’s plan. Do you have any examples of it from his last contributions on the subject?

    Me neither.

  20. "National Opinion Poll found a tendency for British Muslims to believe some, well, strange things. 45% thought that 9/11 was a conspiracy between the USA and Israel. 36% thought that Princess Diana was murdered to stop her marrying a Muslim. More seriously, only 29% thought that the holocaust occured, 2% denied it happened entirely, 17% think it was exaggerated (which is the stance proposed by most of today’s holocaust deniers), 24% said they had “no opinion” and 23% didn’t know what the holocaust was."

  21. Henry,

    "Journalist Mohammed Salim Abdullah, a prominent figure at the Islamic Archives Foundation of Germany, firmly believes that Iranian president Ahmadinejad’s suggestion that the Holocaust did not occur is scandalous.
    […]
    Abdullah says Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s comments about the Holocaust are not only an affront to Jews, but to the Sinti, Roma and Arabs who were also murdered under Hitler. Furthermore, Abdullah said, such statements by Ahmadinejad are damaging to the reputation of other Muslims.

    Abdullah suggested that Ahmadinejad travel himself to the former Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. There, he would see not only where millions of Jews were killed, but also many Muslims."

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1907670,00.html

  22. Frank

    All credit to him. As he points out in the article "Arab history and school books also make no mention of the Holocaust. The Islamic Archives Foundation in Germany, however, is trying to change that."

    Good luck to them but we need to reckon with the reality that holocaust denial is widespread and has a current political objective which is to destroy Israel.

  23. Henry,

    If you want to claim something is "a British Muslim thing" using such numbers then you also need to show numbers for the UK population as a whole. Here are some. They don’t help your case:

    – 27% of the general public told NOP in 2003 that Princess Diana had been murdered
    – an ICM poll in 2004 found 14% of people in the UK thought that the scale of the holocaust had been exaggerated,

    http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/jc-jewish-poll-jan-2004.asp

  24. Frank

    It’s not a British muslim thing. It’s a Muslim thing. There are polls from other countries showing the same thing. As your link established they are not told the truth in school.

    All the general figure proves is that there will be less opposition when the pressure comes on. Bovine ignorance is manageable. Whatever we might think about Political Correctness it did encourage a lot of stupid people to keep their opinions to themselves. But in dealing with Islam it is part of the problem.

    My prediction is that within the foreseeable future holocaust denial will be come a serious issue for the education system in many parts of Europe and the force behind it will be Islam. It will be working on systems where the curriculum is already heavily influenced by political considerations and political activists.

  25. <Q>The Republic today has plenty of problems but at least religious domination isn’t one of them.</Q>

    Interesting you say that – did you see today’s Irish Independent – looks as if Bertie has bowed to the Bishops …..

  26. I don’t see any problem with this segregated bathing thing – after all there are plenty of places where "Wimmin" have banned men ….

  27. Henry,

    "It’s not a British muslim thing. It’s a Muslim thing."

    The figures I quoted suggest it is not a British Muslim thing. That means it’s not a Muslim thing either.

    "There are polls from other countries showing the same thing."

    But then you probably thought that about the poll you already quoted, and it turned out to be wrong.

    "As your link established they are not told the truth in school."

    The link says that the Holocaust is not a part of *Arab* history and school books.

  28. MR,

    "did you see today’s Irish Independent – looks as if Bertie has bowed to the Bishops ….. "

    What is it this time?

  29. Age of consent thing Frank. Bertie does what he’s told 😉

    If you e mail me I can send you the article.

  30. Madradin,
    nobody has bowed to anything yet. It’s all part of avoiding controversy in the run-up to the election.

    No point getting into discussions about sex and consent when you can revisit the issue in peace and quiet next October.

    This is what Ahern said in the Independent article:

    "The Catholic hierarchy had been "entirely right" to raise the issue of morality.

    "This should be part of the debate," he added. "We have a number of issues around children now that we have to deal with, including the one on children’s rights which I have raised myself about child protection, in a referendum."

    He thought the bishops’ input into the debate was a good one. He hoped more people put forward their views before the Government made a decision."

    I know you are a bit lacking in the area of mature debate, it’s win or lose with you.

  31. >>ooks as if Bertie has bowed to the Bishops ….<<

    Perhaps it’s a sign of the shifting parameters of Irish politics that the Irish Govt. wanted to bring our age-of-consent law into line with Britain whereas the Bishops wanted to keep it in line with Northern Ireland!

  32. Frank

    On inspection. I think the two polls show a marked difference in opinion between Muslims and the general population.

    General population.

    The scale of the Nazi holocaust against the Jews during the Second World War has been exaggerated

    Agree strongly 10%
    Tend to agree 4%
    Neither agree nor disagree 9%
    Tend to disagree 8%
    Disagree strongly 62%
    Don’t know 6%

    Muslim population.

    17% thought it was exaggerated Another 2% thought it never happened. That’s 19%. Another 24% claimed they had no opinion compared to 6% of the general population.
    Do you think we can’t infer anything from that? I think we can.
    Another 23% didn’t know what it was.
    That accounts for 65% who can’t assert as a fact that the holocaust happened as historians say it did.
    Almost the reverse in the general population where 70% disagree with the statement.

    Not that the general figures are great but the Muslim figures are far worse.

  33. >>Do you think we can’t infer anything from that? I think we can.<<

    We probably can, Henry. But the question is what do you want to infer?

  34. Touchy, touchy Garfield ….

    THIS is what the Independent said ….

    <Q> BERTIE Ahern yesterday conceded defeat in the electoral battle between Church and State. He bowed to the power of the bishops, as expressed in their statement, and by so doing enhanced still further his already strong position in next year’s general election.
    He declared himself firmly on the side of morality. He endorsed the right of the Church to enter politics and influence the law-making processes of elected representatives. </Q>

    Of course Hot-line Bertie owes the Church big-time for looking the other way ….

  35. There is all sorts of scope for drawing unjustifed conclusions from such statistics.

  36. MR

    Do you know if it is UUP or DUP policy to reduce the age of consent in the north? I feel safe in assuming they weren’t "got at" by the Catholic Bishops so I wonder if they have another reason for not advocating change. Unless of course they do. Any idea?

  37. What age of consent are we talking about? What is on in ROI and what is is in Great Britian and in the rest of Britain, i.e. NI?

  38. Women are completely banned from attending but have their own special swimming sessions outside opening hours.

    Disrimination pure and simple. But then we say bugger all about female apartheid clothing outside the pool and im sure most good female muslims will go along with the pool discrimination also. Pipe up and youre an ismlamophobe. We reap what we sow.

  39. Aileen

    I do agree and in particular comparing different polls is not a great idea. I just don’t see any way of concluding from the figures that there is no difference.

  40. No Idea Henry – I don’t support either party. Then again, neither the DUP nor UUP have done a sordid deal with a Church saving it many hundreds of Millions ….

  41. Alison – do you oppose Women-only Gyms ?

  42. Aileen, the age of consent in Britain is 16, in Ireland (both parts) it’s currently 17 (I think)

    MR, you would do well to put as little faith in what the Indo writes about a party it does not support as you would in what the Telegraph writes about Blair.

    What the Bishops says about matters of sexual "morality" is irrelevant in Irish politics, as they have decisively knocked themselves out of that debate with a series of own-goals. Many people are, however, a bit scared at increasing promiscousness among the young, and reducing the age would not do any party good in the coming election.

  43. Yes I do. Its okay to have a few women only classes but to exclude men altogether is wrong.

  44. Cunningham – how do you rate Bertie’s track record in respect of dealing with the Church ?

    Does he come across as his own man or a puppet?

    Looks like the latter to me.

  45. Cunningham

    I think you are right. For Bertie it’s all about votes and if the Bishops agree with the voters then it might appear they are being listened to.

  46. >>Does he come across as his own man or a puppet<<

    Bertie likes being liked a bit too much, that’s all.
    (another reason he has such rapport with Paisley!)

    Henry, you’re right. But it’s not just FF. Would the Irish Labour party come out and say clearly the age of consent should be lowered?

    The Irish bishops are currently making a rather pathetic effort to position themselves back at the front of their straying sheep by pretending to want what they believe the people want.

  47. It’s off topic – but it just occurred to me – were Prod delinquents and Prod unmarried Mothers sent to the forced labour camps such as Letterfrack and the Magdalene Laundries ?

  48. Henry,

    Regarding the figures the two that are directly comparable are 14% vs 17%. A difference of 3% – almost no difference, or literally no difference when you consider the error margins of such polls. This is quite aside from the fact that correlation is not causation – on the ‘exaggerated’ claim you’re not even showing a correlation.

    On general anti-semitism the figures for the general population are also pretty bleak and quite clearly cannot be accounted for by anything Muslim.

    Last but not least, lest we forget, the Holocaust was perpetrated by a Christian country, and not a Muslim one. You might do well to write that on a postit note and stick to your monitor. Then maybe you could consult it from time to time as you demonize Muslims.

  49. <Q>Bertie likes being liked a bit too much, that’s all.
    (another reason he has such rapport with Paisley!)</Q>

    I always got the impression that Paisley enjoyed thinking of himself as a cross (boom boom !) between enfant terrible of politics and Jeremiah.

  50. John Creagh was an Imam ?

  51. Frank

    I’m sure that in real life you would draw a conclusion about someone who claimed to have no view on the question of the reality of the Holocaust.

    I think you know you misread the polls. Hence the element of tantrum in your last post.

    The figures are there and I think posters here will see what they say.

  52. There is a difference between asserting something didn’t happen and not asserting that it did. One very obvious rreason for not aserting that it did is lack of exposure to the information.

  53. Well said, Frank. Henry, your interpretation of the figures says more about your own prejudices than Muslim ones.

    The big figure is the 24% + 23% "don’t knows", and you conveniently lumped this 47% in with the deniers, whereas it could equally count on the other side.

    MR
    "Magdalene Laundries" were a Protestant invention, remember. Like so much evil in Ireland, they had their origins in Britain 🙂
    They were also quite big in Puritan New England.
    When the Catholic Church took them over in Irl., I’m sure Protestant girls had somewhere else to go.

    In my day even, there used to be notices and stuff in newspapers listing the places were girls "in trouble" of both denomincations should go.

    Letterfrack was a Christian Brothers gulag, so no Prod body there.
    What was that place they had for them in Fermanagh? Portadora or Kingcara or something?

    Jeremiah? Sounds like someone from Cork?

    I think Paisley’s achilles heel is that he can’t resist the affections of "simple, decent" Catholics. You are now seeing the result.

  54. = so no Prod boys there

  55. "Portadora "

    I think that you are mixing that up with the boy’s grammer school. Not that many unmarried mother’s got sent there.

    I think that is what relations in America came in handy for.

  56. Cunningham – there were over 70 Industrial schools in the ROI which were paid a fortune* to look after the kids sent there – not to mention that they were extremely profitable enterprises in their own right having a ready supply of free labour.

    * <Q>IN 1961 an Irish rural family, two adults, two children, father unemployed, would receive £2 2s 6d a week. There was a further payment of 13s 6d for the second child in the family, making the total for the four people £2 16s; (no payment was made for the first child). This meant 14s a week per person as subsistence.
    The per-capita payment, at the same date, for a single child in an industrial school was £3 9s 9d a week. There were, in addition, block grants. </Q>

  57. <Q>"Magdalene Laundries" were a Protestant invention,</Q>

    wrong.The Magdalene Movement started in the British Isles as a rescue movement to help women quit prostitution. It became Penal when the RC church muscled in on the act. It’s still only 10 years since the RC Church closed it’s last one.

  58. The Iran "conference" on the historical truth of the holocaust is deeply sinister. We can safely predict that it will conclude that the figure of 6 million jews murdered is "exaggerated", or even that it will deny absolutely that the event occurred between 1940-45 as is generally accepted.

    But they will then use this conclusion to attack the moral basis of the existence of the state of Israel, paving the way for a future attack, possibly using nuclear weapons.

  59. >>there were over 70 Industrial schools in the ROI which were paid a fortune*<<

    You don’t have to remind me. As a 10-yr old, I was threatened with Letterfrack by a Christian Brother and know some boys who ended up in those "schools".

    BTW: Do those figures relate to welfare benefit, children’s allowance or what?

    >>It became Penal when the RC church..<<

    I know those laundries were a modern form of slavery and an absolute disgrace on Ireland.

    No argument.
    It’s a terrible thought that my mother probably supported such places of horror.

    Were there any such excesses within the Reform Movement in England, I wonder? I heard that there were at least in the Magdalen institutions in the US.
    BTW The last such laundry in GB closed down only in the 1970’s.

    >>I think that you are mixing that up with the boy’s grammer school<<

    Aileen, I was again being facetious about Portora/Kingcora (although the latter, for obvious reasons, doesnt get much of an airing here. A bit too close to home.)

    >>Not that many unmarried mother’s got sent there<<

    True, but at least Oscar Wilde did!

  60. In what sence is the exageration meant to take, the scale of the intention, the scale of the industry or the scale of the deaths or all of them?

  61. "Aileen, I was again being facetious about Portora/Kingcora (although the latter, for obvious reasons, doesnt get much of an airing here. A bit too close to home.) "

    What’s meant to have happened at Portora? Kincora isn’t in Fermanagh. I would say that the reason that Kinkora doesn’t get much of an airing here is that it isn’t that relevant to anything that we are talking about. Does it get much of an airing on any other blogs. If it has I haven’t noticed and if it doesn’t is the reason that it doesn’t, the same obvious reason or a different obvious reason. and what is the obvious reason because apart from relevancy no reason is obvious to me.

  62. Cunningham – AFAIK it was only in Ireland that the state colluded with Church to deny Civil rights to the Laundry inmates. Unique circumstances. But I do wonder if Protestants were sent to the Industrials – my impression is that the state ceded everything to do with "Children" to the church, all children.

  63. Cunningham

    I have no prejudice against Muslims. There is no right I ask for myself that I wouldn’t extend to any Muslim. And if Islamic radicalism does come to dominate Europe then it is our fault and not theirs.

    As for the figures I don’t accept your contention that the ‘don’t knows’ and the ‘won’t says’ could be allocated to either camp.

    Understand that we start from the existence of a fact, the Holocaust. This is not an opinion question, where one view is as legitimate as another, like who will you vote for.

    65% can’t assert as a fact that the holocaust happened as historians say it did.

    Almost the reverse in the general population where 70% disagree with the statement.

    You can argue about what this vast difference means but you can’t say there is no difference.

    I can only think of two explanations for the figure. Either they are ignorant of the facts or they are dissembling. If there is a third explanation I’d love to hear it.

  64. Protestants weren’t sent to Catholic Industrial schools, they were sent to Protestant homes.

    Many have claimed abuse while in care there but unfortunately they are excluded from the Redress Board.

    I have even heard one claim that medical experiments were carried out on the Protestant children in these Protestant homes.

  65. Some Church of Irelanda homes are on the Redress list but all the others aren’t despite all the allegations for some reason.

  66. remove "all the" from last sentence.

  67. I had never even heard of the Magdalene Laundries until someone (MR, or possibly Frank) mentioned it to me in a discussion about church/state/oppression the other day. I still haven’t read it up any further, but judging from what I’ve just read here, I feel shocked.

  68. Aileen,

    >>the reason that Kinkora doesn’t get much of an airing here is that it isn’t that relevant to anything that we are talking about.<<

    You mean, Kincora’s even less relevant to Muslims’ swimming lessons in London than an industrial school for boys in Galway is? Really?

    >>is the reason that it doesn’t, the same obvious reason or a different obvious reason.<<

    Either the latter or neither.

    >>and what is the obvious reason<<

    I already said it.

    MR

    >>it was only in Ireland that the state colluded with Church to deny Civil rights to the Laundry inmates.<<

    I’m sure that’s true, and it’s a terrible disgrace.

    Re: Protestant boys. I’m sure they weren’t sent to the gulags. They were outside the range of the Christian Brothers. However, the default religion was of course always Catholic, so maybe if some such poor lad turned up somewhere without an obvious background, he fell victim to them too.

    After all, they could only take in some lad to “save” him if he had been baptised properly.

    Garfield,
    >>even heard one claim that medical experiments were carried out on the Protestant children in these Protestant homes.<<

    Never heard of that, but there was apparently a Mengele figure in one of the Magdalen laundries.

    Henry,
    >>65% can’t assert as a fact that the holocaust happened as historians say it did<<

    That catch-all "can’t assert as a fact" thing is meaningless.
    I’m sure the percentage who can’t assert it as a fact would rise to 80% if you asked Chinese, 90% if you asked Polynesians and approach 100% if you asked young Eskimos.

  69. Typically Garfie posting – drip some vague anti-prod poison ….

    The "medical experiments" claim – a clumsy attempt to
    misrepresent the vaccination trials ….

    http://www.paddydoyle.com/vaccinetrials.html

  70. Oh – and the use of children in homes as guinea pigs in vaccine trials happened in other parts of the world. Australia tested the Polio vaccines om institutionalised children in the 50s. Ireland was still doing it in the 70s.

  71. "You mean, Kincora’s even less relevant to Muslims’ swimming lessons in London than an industrial school for boys in Galway is? Really?"

    When has that been mentioned. It’s not in David’s opening post? If Kincora or anything else doesnlt get much of an airing on here then you are one of the people that isn’t airing it. So what are the obvious reasons? Is "A bit too close to home" the obvious reason? Is it too close to you? Is that why you don’t air it? Is it too close to me? Can’t see how? Who is it too close to? Or is there another obvious reason?

  72. Tom – the "story" really broke when over 150 bodies were discovered in unmarked graves in a Dublin Convent that was sold to the State.

    http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html

    http://www.answers.com/topic/magdalen-asylum

  73. Interesting links, MR.
    It seems like these institutions were probably set up at first with good intentions, but gradually the same old story sets in, abuse of power etc. I’ll do some more reading on this.

    I was amazed to read that they have the Angelus, broadcast on the TV! Couldn’t get over that.

  74. The Angelus is still a hot potato Tom.

    http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/angulus.htm

  75. My goodness, so it still happens. I would have thought that EU directives would have stopped it by now. Ah well, I suppose most Irish people can take it or leave it, and be tolerant of those who either do or don’t subscribe to it.

  76. It never really bothered me to hear it Tom 🙂

    Public expression of Faith?

    No problem to me – be it the Angelus or an Orange Order Church Parade.

  77. This is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to the religious mindset that sees freedom of religion for themselves alone, or themselves as a "special" case.

  78. Having come this far, having discussed the reality of the Irish State it seems fair to ask – were Northern Prods right to fear being incorporated into the state planned and established by the inheritors of 1916? A state that was in reality only different in scale to some of the Islamic states,oppressive to women and religious minorities, down to "Imams" having political influence and power and ultimate power resting with a foreign "Ayatollah" in Rome ?

  79. The real problem with state broadcasting is that it exists at all. I subscribe to EWTN a Catholic station which has the Angelus, Mass, Benediction etc. Not your thing? Then don’t subscribe.

    But I don’t have a choice about subscribing to RTE. I don’t want it, don’t rate it and rarely watch it. I have complete sympathy with non-Catholics who object to the Angelus on RTE. Why should they be forced to subscribe to it? But the answer is not to change the paternalistic mix.

    That is far more likely to involve adding the call to prayer in the interests of balance.

    The answer is to close RTE and sell of its assets. Let the market decide the mix. Let grown-ups make their own decision about what they want.

    Would you like to pay a license fee for your PC so the state could produce public service websites? What is the difference?

  80. Cunningham

    Still waiting to be enlightened re Kincora.

  81. Aileen, I honestly don’t understand your comments and I presume you also don’t understand mine.

    e.g. >>When has that been mentioned?<<.

    If you tell me what "that" is referring to, I might be able to answer your question.

  82. Cunningham

    My 1:20 post quotes your 1:06. which you addressed to me. What did you mean? and what is the obvious reason that Lincora deosn;t get much of an airing on here and as one of those who airs things on here, does the obvious reason apply to you?

  83. Kincora, has so far been called Kingcara, then my Kingcora, then your Kinkcora, now your Lincora!
    Personally I think it should have been called KinkyCora.

    Aileen, there have been so many misunderstandings, I don’t know where to begin.
    I’m also not convinced that you really don’t understand that comment you mention. But I will give you the benefit and try to sort out at least one problem:

    "Mad" mentioned the Letterfrack school more or less out of the blue. We talked about it. Both of us knew, and both of us knew that the other knew, that it was a boys’ industrial school in RoI,

    I later mentioned "Kincora/Kingcara" deliberately misspelling it and conflating it with "Portora", which I also deliberately misspelled for reasons I hope are now clear.

    I then remarked that Kincora isn’t mentioned much on ATW because it is "too close to home".
    The reasons for this remark were as follows:

    "Mad", as I’m sure all ATW readers are aware, takes great pleasure in drawing attention to failings, real and imagined, of the Catholic church and Southern Irish society. He does so by a process that Colm calls "greening a thread", i.e. he bends the topic so that he can bring in his pet jibe at RoI and the Catholic church. Sometimes he doesnt even bother bending, and instead just – if there are no suitable "Irish" topics in discussion – brings up the subject out of nowhere.
    You will find countless examples of this on ATW; you will find at least one on this thread.

    The reasons why "mad" does this should also be clear to all.
    For the same reasons, he has never brought up the subject of Kincora, although there is scarcely an institution or incident of that type in RoI that he hasn’t mentioned, i.e. Kincora is "too close to home", geographically and ethnically.

    You then came in and told me it wasn’t in Fermanagh, which of course I knew, and that no unmarried women went there, which of course I also knew.
    If that was meant as a joke, it didnt work, as I had been talking about Protestant boys (although I did misspell this in one comment, but corrected this misspelling in the next)

    So, no, the obvious reason does not apply to me. It also does not apply to most other blogs (I presume), which you mentioned. They may have other obvious reasons for avoiding the subject or reasons that are not obvious (hence my "Either the latter or neither")

    So I hope that’s at least one misunderstanding cleared up.

  84. No Cunningham

    It doesn’t ,make much sence. The first part of your 1:06 was to me, not to Mad. and came from your saying that Kincora doesn’t get much of an airing on here for obvious reasons. I said that if it doesn’t get much of an airing on here it is because it is not relevant to what people are talking about.

    What has Mad’s motivations got to do with what DOESN’T get an airing on here? It might have some thing to do with what DOES, but then no more than nay of us regular posters, OF WHICH YOU ARE ONE.

    If Kincora or anything else doesn’t get much of a airing on here then YOU are one of those who doesn’t air it. So if you don’t air it, why not? and why could the reason that you haven’t aired it not be the reason that no one else does?

  85. Aileen, If you still havent understood it you will have to get someone else to explain.
    Ive done my bit!

  86. Cunningham

    I don’t understand it because in is nonsensical. If some thing does not get an airing on here it is as much down to YOU as it is to Mad. I am sick to the back teeth of people who are regulars making comments as if they were somehow above it all. What deosnlt get aired here os as much down to you as Mad.

  87. Aileen, show the comment in question to someone and he/she’ll hopefully be able to explain it to you.

  88. The explanation is that you haven’t given one as to you haven’t given Kincora much of an airing but if others don’t they have to have an "obvious reason".

  89. <Q>He does so by a process that Colm calls "greening a thread", i.e. he bends the topic so that he can bring in his pet jibe at RoI and the Catholic church.</Q>

    That is a filthy LIE Cunningham – the ROI was introduced before I had even contributed to the thread – by Human Animals

    <Q> Let’s just take the Republic of Ireland as one example.</Q>

    Saturday, December 9, 2006 at 05:12PM | Unregistered Commenter Human Animals

    Very on topic – the dangers of religion and State.
    Hypocrisy from certain Southerners has been looked at – it’s OK when THEIR church has the reins ….

    Since then Cunningham you have ran from anything asked of you ….

    Secondly Kincora – it has been discussed on ATW and condemned.
    Rather different though – a one off home, No dead bodies in the grounds like in the Magdalenes, No Hundreds of Millions gulled from the state, No Clergy being shifted round etc etc ….

    Come on Cunningham – quit trying to use the sins of Kincora to evade the questions.

    <Q> were Northern Prods right to fear being incorporated into the state planned and established by the inheritors of 1916? A state that was in reality only different in scale to some of the Islamic states,oppressive to women and religious minorities, down to "Imams" having political influence and power and ultimate power resting with a foreign "Ayatollah" in Rome ? </Q>

  90. >>the explanation is that you haven’t given one as to you haven’t given Kincora much of an airing but if others don’t they have to have an "obvious reason".<<

    Bean Aroon,
    Don’t understand that either, I’m afraid. Perhaps if you said it in Irish?

    Maybe you think that I was complaining that Kincora didnt get an airing – I wasn’t.
    Or that I would like to discuss it or see it discussed – I wouldn’t
    Or that my reasons for not wishing to discuss it are the same or similar to mad’s – they are not!

  91. Well Cunningham – who "greened" this thread?

    <Q> were Northern Prods right to fear being incorporated into the state planned and established by the inheritors of 1916? A state that was in reality only different in scale to some of the Islamic states,oppressive to women and religious minorities, down to "Imams" having political influence and power and ultimate power resting with a foreign "Ayatollah" in Rome ? </Q>

  92. >>were Northern Prods right to fear being incorporated into the state planned and established by the inheritors of 1916?<<

    Well, they were fearing it even before 1916 was a glint in Tom Clarke’s eye.

    But, yes. I never disputed that northern Unionists had a right to opt out of the Home Rule bill in some form.
    (The rest of what you say about Islamic states" etc. is your usual hype)
    I also never stop complaining about death’s-head Ireland to anyone within earshot, and Im sure Ive more reason to complain about it than northern Prods do.

    It’s the way Unionists went about it and set up NI that I believe was immoral and politically insane. By taking in large swathes of the country full of reluctant Northern Irelanders, they laid the foundation for future conflict and made sectarian oppression practically inevitable. If they had carved out the state according to stricter ethnic/political lines, the remaining Catholic population would be too small to pose a threat and would have been tolerated and quickly assimilated. The "Union" would then have been sound as a bell for all time.

    Another late consequence of that crime is that you now have to put up with "insurrectionists" in your government.

    But on the other hand, it means the RoI was spared Aileen!

  93. No my point is – how you can say that the reasons that Kincora is not aired on here is for obvious reasons, when you don’t air it either.

    Why should anyone else want to give it much of an airing or if they don’t, have to have an obvious reason that doesn;t apply to you, when you don’t give it an airing either. The answer is they wouldn’t

    Even if Mad had an obvious reason for not wanting to give it an airing, how would that stop it being aired?

    The answer is , it wouldn’t

  94. So Cunningham – who greened this thread?

    and in a discussion of church and state, is the example of the Free state not relevant?

  95. Me bollix.
    It was YOU who greened this thread!
    HA’s remark was once-off. It was you who then several times brought up differnet RoI topics, badgered people people with them and asked folk about them, before finally – about four hours after HA’s remark and after a time when nobody but yourself brought up RoI issues – introduced the Magdalene laundries while – the decisive point – admitting yourself that it was entirely off topic!

    Did you ever bring up Magdalene laundries before?
    Did you ever bring up clerical abuse before?
    Did you ever bring up political acquiescence in such institutions in the RoI before?
    Did you ever bring up Kincora?

    —–
    But thanks for the talk guys, I’m off to dinner.

    Go n’éirì an bóthair leath!

  96. <Q>HA’s remark was once-off. </Q>

    But he DID bring the subject up …..

  97. I guess that all religions, when allowed to control and dominate a country, have a tendency towards extremism and oppressive outcomes. However, the Angelus on RTE is sort of equivalent to BBC’s Songs Of Praise, which I have no problem with at all, as Anglicanism, as the "official" state religion of England, does not oppress me, at least I cannot think of any practical way in which it does, Fair enough, this is a CoE country and I accept that.

  98. Is there really a bar on being PM?

    if you want to marry a Princess you go ahead. At the moment she would hve to give up her place in the sucession but unless you have designs on William of Harry’s future daughter, it shouldn’t make a real difference. Princess Beatrice in not that likley to suceeed. ;o)

  99. – a couple of other things to investigate –

    1) Kerry Babies Scandal
    2) Ann Lovett and Granard.

  100. Oh no, please dont tell me the RC church has had even more scandals! My life is coming undone.

  101. Nah – those ones were not Church driven . But two sobering illustrations of ROI society.

  102. All the churches have loads of potential scandals that only need being brought to light.

  103. Indeed – my sources in Fermanagh have told me stories about Anglicans that would make your hair stand on end Tom 😉

    And entirely unrelated to scandals, speaking of Fermanagh – Arlene was on TV earlier !

  104. Mad
    Watch it! What was she talking about?

    Mad gets conufused.He’s at a funny age!

  105. She was in very good form Aileen – left the interviewer in no doubt that "Split" is not the right word to use in respect of the DUP 🙂 A Formidable lady … and by coincidence Kate Hoey was on at lunchtime.

    <Q>He’s at a funny age!</Q>

    ? – you told me I was younger than you !

  106. Interesting debate about Judas at the moment…