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A VERY SPECIAL PEACE….

By David Vance On April 29th, 2014

Sometimes, the inconvenient truth emerges…

The IRA has a secret arsenal of deadly munitions capable of bringing down military helicopters and penetrating PSNI Land Rovers, killing all personnel travelling inside.

But, but, this cannot be!! We all know that the IRA are profoundly committed to ..erm, peace. Right?

Millionaire Florida stockbroker turned IRA gunrunner, Mike Logan, says he sent the powerful incendiary shells to the Provisionals who tested them and were “delighted with the results”. As well as arming the Provisionals with hundreds of handguns as previously reported, he has now disclosed that he also sent munitions as powerful as those the US Army deployed against Saddam Hussein in the Iraq war. He claims that years after the IRA ceasefire, the Provos were still keen to buy heavy weapons capable of killing dozens of police officers and British soldiers.

I wonder why?

48 Responses to “A VERY SPECIAL PEACE….”

  1. The ceasefire was one thing and decommissioning was another. Both are now well established. Surely it is to be welcomed that the IRA put their weapons beyond use and now no longer exists as an organisation.

  2. David – I thought you were opposed to gun control.

  3. two foolish comments.

  4. Do you know Troll , I actually agree with you .

  5. This article would be extremely relevant if these shipments happened after arms decommissioning. But it seems they happened between 1995 and 2001.

    So, one would have to presume these arms have all been destroyed.

    Case closed.

  6. How do we know they were destroyed. Are there now records to show that? Or do have to depend on the words of notorious liars?

  7. Or do have to depend on the words of notorious liars?

    As opposed to taking the word of ‘Millionaire Florida stockbroker turned IRA gunrunner, Mike Logan…?’

  8. Semi

    Do you doubt the weapons were shipped and received?

  9. I don’t doubt the IRA received weapons from somewhere, NYer. I have no idea if it was from this Mike Logan person, or if they were of the type which he describes. I have only his word for it, and for all I know, he could be one of the ‘notorius liars’ you mentioned above.

  10. “How do we know they were destroyed.”

    That is a different argument.

    Either you believe all the IRA’s weapons were destroyed during decommissioning or you don’t (which is fair enough). But these weapons are no different to all the others – they were all supplied before the decommissioning process.

  11. I haven’t read/heard much about this story…well, not since the 90s anyway (and the linked to article). Is this one of the guys who got caught and did time already? If not, why is talking now; did he get picked up for something else and he’s trying to make a deal? Did the statute of limitations run out on gun running in Florida? What’s his motivation—he looks pretty pleased with himself so I doubt it’s a guilty conscience.

  12. MourneReg

    You said above one would have to presume these weapons were destroyed. What do you base that statement on? As I recall, there are no records of what was destroyed nor is there photographic evidence of the destruction. If that is the case, what is there to base a belief they were destroyed on other than the words of notorious liars and a couple of old duffers who said they believed them?

  13. Who are the ‘couple of old duffers’ you’re talking about?

  14. Anyone who thinks that the IRA destroyed its arsenal is out of his tiny mind.

  15. The original articles obviously weren’t sexy enough for Suzy B so she’s obviously decided to sex it up a bit with bigger bullets.

    This is David doing a rehash of this: http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=49837 and Suzy doing a recap of every other story she’s ever written. Talk about old news.

    Who are the ‘couple of old duffers’

    I suspect he’s talking about these two churchmen, ( and General John De Chastelain)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4283444.stm

    Strange that he would take the word of a ‘millionaire Florida stockbroker turned IRA gunrunner’ who in recent times, struggling with alcohol, drugs and ending up in prison for several months over the word of two respected clerics and a Canadian Army General.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4283444.stm

    Why has this man come out of the cold after fifteen years, surely there’s no elections coming up?

  16. Paul
    You must be one of those tiny-minded people Pete Moore warned us about…

  17. Pete’s knowledge of the North is about as impressive as Troll’s.

  18. What would the IRA (which no longer exists) need weapons for? They could only ever be a political problem for the peace process which if we are to believe here was a total victory for republicans.

    The Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) was established to oversee the decommissioning. General John de Chastelain and his colleagues reported that they were “…satisfied that the arms decommissioned represent the totality of the IRA’s arsenal”. This was confirmed by two witnesses independent of the Commission, Catholic priest Father Alec Reid, and former president of the Methodist Church in Ireland, Reverend Harold Good.

    Sinn Fein are on course for gains in the coming local and European elections. They have spent years following a political strategy based entirely on peaceful and democratic means. It would be a disaster for them if any significant IRA weapons turned up. Just as it would be a huge opportunity for their enemies. It would be insanity for any weapons to be left hanging around even if you look at it entirely from Sinn Fein’s self-interest. Republicans don’t need or miss IRA weapons. If only we could say the same for anti-agreement unionism.

  19. The “old duffers” I refer to were headed up by de Chastelain who is probably in his late 70s and was paid by the government to tell them what they wanted to hear.

    My conclusion is that there is no credible evidence that total decommissioning happened. Surely photographs and a record of every item could and should have been produced. Besides the arms under discussion Semtex surfaces from time to time. The decommissioning was not handled in a way in which the general public could be confident that all IRA arms were destroyed.

  20. The decommissioning was not handled in a way in which the general public could be confident that all IRA arms were destroyed.

    That ‘general public’ that you speak of are one day in the very near future going to make SF the biggest party in the Assembly.

    My conclusion is that because you didn’t get abject humiliation and sack cloth & ashes it’s not a good enough standard for you.

    Tough.

  21. There was a time when Sinn Fein/IRA was for real i.e. they targetted the Establishment itself. Now, SF/IRA is that same Establishment – but if some part has broken away, then they would target the bankers and politicians who have bankrupted Ireland.

  22. Did you get that policy from the Green Book Allan?

  23. My memory might be a little fuzzy but isn’t the disclosure of IRA’a weapons put beyond use, as for type and volume, contingent upon unionists veritably putting their weapons beyond use, something they out right refuse to do?

  24. // Surely photographs and a record of every item could and should have been produced.//

    And of course you would then have believed the photographs and records were accurate and acceptable.

  25. Allan — Did someone tell you that when you spent a weekend in Dublin?

  26. Technical question:

    Is anyone else having trouble loading ATW?

  27. Noel

    Records and photographs can be verified. Words from notorious liars and paid puppets who nobody ever heard of beforehand cannot. If there were at least photographs or videos people would at least know that it actually took place. It was handled in a very shoddy manner and it could easily and should have been done credibly.

    simongrimes

    Put your hands behind your ears. Do you detect moisture?

    Paul McMahon

    Wow! Biggest party at Stormont. That sounds really important. What can they do that their Brit masters forbid? Can they investigate Ballymurphy? Can they stop the welfare reductions? I know. They can debate language policy but only do something about it if both sides agree. Wow!

  28. Did you get that policy from the Green Book Allan?

    No Paul – but you just ask the following question: how many neo-cons has al-qaeda killed? The answer is none, but why none? On the other hand, how many members of the Establishment did the IRA kill or, almost as effective, threaten to kill?

  29. But you were speaking about general public opinion NY’er not political power.

    For being so inneffective SF can certainly have an effect on you anytime they’re raised on this blog?

    I don’t know Allan but then it’s a ridiculous comparison so how could I?

  30. //Records and photographs can be verified. //

    What would they prove?
    Nothing more than that the few rifles or whatever in the pictures were destroyed.
    They would not have told us anything about IRA weapons stocks or what part of them these few guns represented.

    There is no question whatsoever that at least some guns were put beyond use, so your photos would have told us absolutely nothing we don’t know.

  31. Noel

    It would have been visible evidence that people could be confident arms were destroyed. The records could have been compared to the information the security services had on PIRA weapons. Lastly, it would be a public demonstration that terrorism had been defeated. Do you agree it was done in a shoddy manner?

    Paul McMahon

    You were crowing about them being the biggest party in Stormont. I merely pointed out that that is meaningless because they have no power. They cannot do anything their Brit masters forbid and that their DUP partners do not agree to. Or perhaps you think they have some power the rest of cannot see. If so, tell us.

  32. // Do you agree it was done in a shoddy manner?//

    I believe it was done in the only manner possible. The hows and wheres of decommissioning had been discussed at exhaustive length in the months leading up to the actual act. It was a very difficult and sensitive process. If any more stringent criteria had been insisted on, the IRA would not have obliged. It’s as simple as that. Even pictures would have been too much for them.
    Basically, what you want and for what reasons is exactly what they wouldn’t five
    for the same reasons.

    We all – even you by the sound of things – agree that at least some decommissioning took place. The general and the churchmen said that they believed that the entire stock was destroyed (they would no doubt have had that information from the security services you refer to).

    I don’t believe they are all telling lies. They at least believed it was all gone.
    None of us, or none of them, knows of course whether or not the IRA had some additonal stocks that the police etc weren’t aware of. If these were held back, nobody would be the wiser (and your pictures and records would help us nowt).

    But they witnesses were at least acting in good faith, which means substantial stocks were destroyed.

    It was at the time all a “confidence-building” exercise anyway, e.g. is now meaningless. New weapons can be obtained at any time. By far the most important thing is that the IRA has now been on ceasefire for almost 20 years, and no longer exists as a fighting organisation.

    Acts, or the absence of them, paint a thousand pictures.

  33. One can also point out that if not all beaten into plowshares that the weapons at the very least are not being used. Which is a convenient truth to put it mildly.

    Logan seems an ugly character, and not merely for his gunrunning efforts. The government apparently gave him immunity to rat out his contacts some years ago.

  34. Noel

    It is because the whole ending was a fudge job and the lack of clarity has bedeviled NI since. The PIRA were defeated, they could not achieve their objectives and achieving them are further away than when they started in the early 70s. The Brits should have dealt with them properly instead of the ‘we don’t want to hurt your feelings’ fudge that evolved. The Brits mostly knew where the arms were and who had weapons and should have proceeded with forced disarming if the arms were not surrendered. The Brits had amazingly detailed and specific information on probably all associated with PIRA by the 1990s.

    It is probable that substantial amounts of arms were destroyed. But there is no evidence for it. The commission were paid has-been military guys and a few gullible church folk. Why was there no well known person to certify the arms destruction? Why was there nobody like our former President Jimmy Carter? There were no such people because they would not get involved in a contrived and dishonest PR job. Among other reasons they have sterling reputations to protect.

    Mahons

    You blithely make a claim that the weapons are not being used. That is false. Weapons that were supposed to be decommissioned surface fairly often in criminal investigations in both the Republic and NI. It is unclear how many have escaped detection thus far. Many of the ‘former’ freedom fighters are busy at a host of criminal enterprises in which a gun, bomb, etc. come in quite handy. It is better to say nothing than to post falsehoods.

  35. New Yorker

    Why was there nobody like our former President Jimmy Carter?

    Do you really believe that having Jimmy Carter instead of General John de Chastelain would have made believes out of Unionists like David Vance? You might as well have had Jimmy Saville.

    Even if you could prove that every single bullet had been destroyed they would insist that the IRA had gone out and bought more. Why? Because they can’t face the fact that the peace process had been an incredible success.

    The PIRA were defeated

    If that’s what you believe then what’s the problem? The war is over and you believe the British won. Is that not your preferred outcome?

  36. //Do you really believe that having Jimmy Carter instead of General John de Chastelain would have made believes out of Unionists like David Vance? You might as well have had Jimmy Saville.//

    LOL!

    I must admit, that bit about Jimmy Carter not wanting to get involved because of some “sterling reputation” he had to protect also got me laughing.

    But very well said, Simeon.

  37. Just in case anyone thinks I am a blow in I previously posted as Henry94 but that account has been retired.

  38. Hey Simeon/Henry. Didn’t realise it was you. Good to see you.

  39. ditto! – the voice of republican reason.

  40. You were crowing about them being the biggest party in Stormont. I merely pointed out that that is meaningless because they have no power

    Power? who said anything about power? I was speaking about them being the political party with the largest electoral (and therefore public)
    support

    The PIRA were defeated, they could not achieve their objectives and achieving them are further away than when they started in the early 70s.

    Good, if you believe they were defeated then we’ll have no more of the ‘terrorist in government’ guff or ‘the Brits should have done this and the Brits that macho scorched earth shite.

    But please, let’s not have an elongated discussion about this for you to arrive and your ‘five pound note Queen’s head’ conclusion.

    http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=33808

  41. test

  42. Thank you Seimi and Ernest.

  43. BREAKING NEWS:

    Just heard Gerry Adams was told to present himself to police in relation to Jean Mc Convillle and has been arrested.

    I don’t know the veracity of the claim yet.

  44. And Henry, great to see you around these parts again.

  45. simongrimes

    Jimmy Carter attesting to the veracity of decommissioning would have counted with the people who really matter internationally.

    Noel

    Jimmy Carter has a sterling reputation, especially since he was President. The Carter Center does excellent work worldwide.

    Paul McMahon

    If power does not matter, why are they involved in politics which is about power. Is it just a cover for their other ‘activities’? What else could be the reason for putting so much time and energy if they are not interested in power?

  46. Jimmy Carter may be the best ex president in recent history, and his tenure as president should be reassessed.

    As I’ve said here a couple of times before ( with no response ) his returning of Panamanian territory, over the opposition of the likes of Ronald Reagan and other narrow minded types, was one of the more enlightened things a US president has done in the post WW2 era. It didn’t hurt the US in any way, quite the opposite.

    Panama and most of Central America are friends of the US now. They wouldn’t be if we had continued to squat on Panama’s land. We could have had a nasty war there. Carter pre-empted anything like that, no thanks to Reagan.

  47. If power does not matter, why are they involved in politics which is about power. Is it just a cover for their other ‘activities’? What else could be the reason for putting so much time and energy if they are not interested in power?

    I’m not privy to SF strategy NY’er but I’d assume they want Ireland reunified by politics as opposed to violence however you’d need to ask them that.

    I noticed that you’ve stringently stayed away from SF’s electoral support as a guage of their public popularity?

  48. Phantom

    I agree. You are correct about Panama. There was really no political benefit for him but he did the right thing. Neo-cons and others without brains have done all possible to belittle President Carter. But he is still doing much good at an advanced age.

    Paul McMahon

    They want to reunite Ireland. They put back the cause of unity back a century by murdering fellow citizens. Do you know of their other ‘activities’? I hear some guys make a mountain of pounds from them.