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On a clear day; you can still see the smoke

By Mike Cunningham On May 15th, 2014

anewyorkviewArt, and the perception of beauty, talent, perspective held within the creation, is a very personal thing. Speaking and writing only on behalf of 0ne’s self, as we all have to do, when it comes to Art and Culture, is indeed a difficulty, as we have to attempt to place a very personal viewpoint in public, and also get a measured response from the audience.

I have often commented upon some, if not most, ‘modern art’, conceptual art, and all the other variations on a theme as just a huge ‘con’ job; a modern day version of ‘the emperor’s new clothes: whereby if enough sycophantic murmurs gather together, the ‘artist’ is then anointed with admiration, which of course translates into cold, hard cash.

But once in a very blue moon, there comes along a work which does cause you to think and remember, as just about everyone who watched the slow-motion death of the Twin Towers may remember; just how clear the sky really was on that tragic September morning.

 

 

 

 

108 Responses to “On a clear day; you can still see the smoke”

  1. an interesting piece of artwork. The sky was crystal clear that day. The visual memory that comes to my mind other than those of the tragedy is the view of looking down from the control tower at seeing a field of almost 1000 planes parked on the ground with no movement on the field.

  2. I have a number of misgivings about the new Sept 11 museum.

    I’m not comfortable with the idea of the site of an atrocity becoming a must-see tourist attraction, even more than those blocks have already been such a tourist attraction over the past 12 years.

    I don’t like the idea that companies and individuals are making money from this. It will be a lifetime or rest-of-lifetime career for some of them.

    Step right up, ladies and gentlemen, see the crushed fire truck, isn’t that amazing.

    By all accounts, the museum is well done.

    I may visit it soon. I may never visit it. I don’t know.

  3. the other memory of that day comes in two forms, the first one is of my daughter she was 4 watching the events unfold on TV as I had her mother on the phone trying to get news. At that point it was still believed to have been an accident a small plane hitting the tower.

    As my wife and daughter watched the news they saw the second plane hit the second tower. There was silence on the phone and then my daughter in the background asked my wife if there were any babies on that plane as she looked at her mother nursing her sister.

    The second is this tune that was made later but still plays in my head.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpZJD6deEGc

  4. Does nothing for me.
    I don’t know if a painting can convey the sheer shock and horror of that event anyway.
    I watched a programme recently made up from clips taken from peoples’ mobile phones etc. That was harrowing enough.
    The fact that it was America, that it came from out of the blue as people were going about their lawful business and ended their time on earth by jumping hopelessly to their deaths..
    How do you remember a thing like that?

  5. did you play the link A8?

    That day is held by each person from their own perspective.

    The day itself for me was to busy and chaotic to think about anything other than getting as many planes out of the sky and on to our station as they shut down the two major air corridors to the north and south of us. We had 1000 planes to park in airport designed to hold a max of 320.

    I sat in that airport tower for the next 78hrs before I went home, first in shock then in anger. There is no desert as desolate as an airport designed to handle 5,000 people manned with less than 10.

    everyone have a good day. Play nice.

  6. I think I will forever leave my house on beautiful cloudless mornings accentuated by cool crisp air and azure skies with trepidition, fighting off feelings of impending doom…I talk myself through it…’the sky is the same as September 11, maybe not quite as blue; I see a cloud…it’s not the same…the air isn’t quite as crisp; I don’t hear any planes…there’s a helicopter’ and on and on until I get where I have to go and inside the ‘safety’ of a building. I’d like to think I could go to the museum some day…not now though.

  7. //I’m not comfortable with the idea of the site of an atrocity becoming a must-see tourist attraction, //

    I presume you believe the Auschwitz site should continue.

    I think the problem here is that 9-11 took place in the middle of a living city.
    Had they, for example, left that large facade section of the tower that remained standing as it was, with rubble all around it, that would have been a very effective memorial. Just as the concentration camps work because they were left more or less as they were when abandoned.

    But you can’t cordon off a large section of Manhattan just for the sake of a remembrance, and they also had to clear all the remains away for investigations etc. At any rate, any “museum” will be showing the exhibits so totally out of their context that it just won’t work for anybody except mindless tourists looking for a photo op.

  8. Aushwitz does not charge $24 to set foot inside. This large fee is one of the things that disturbs me.

    I like what the Israelis often do after terrorist incidents – they throw every resource into an immediate rebuilding as it was before – so that the terrorists have zero satisfaction at seeing the physical harm that they did.

    I would have rebuilt the Towers as they were, at the identical location, and would have put a small monument with the names of the lost on them.

    I don’t want super museum extravaganzas. There is not a London museum to the terror bombings on their underground, nor should there be. There will be more major terrorist incidents, probably on a 9/11 scale or larger. Do we build museums for them too?

    It disturbs me.

  9. Auschwitz, which I have visited, is necessary because there are the people of the lie who say that those events never happened.

    Only the truly deranged think that Sept 11 did not happen or that it wasn’t caused by airplanes crashing into the buildings.

  10. I heard Giuliani speak this morning (I’m not a big fan of his BTW) but he was very involveed in the memorial’s development and is, of course, close to the families of those who lost loved ones. He spent several hours there yesterday and said overall the memorial sends a strong message of hope and respect without being maudlin. It’s this sense of hope that I’m curious about. Like him, I didn’t see it happen on TV (though I’ve caught glimpses here and there later on the news/I’ve never watched a documentary) and he said that it was rather shocking. The fee is outrageous but would go away if it became a federal (or private-public partnership like the Smithsonians) entity.

  11. I would have rebuilt the Towers as they were, at the identical location,

    The towers were making enormous losses, yet could not be demolished or dismantled without enormous cost to the owner. See as of 47.50:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

  12. Only the truly deranged think that Sept 11 did not happen or that it wasn’t caused by airplanes crashing into the buildings.

    I don’t know who you could possibly be referring to Phantom. I’m scratching my head but can’t think of anyone here on ATW that could apply to 😉

  13. Only the truly deranged think that Sept 11 did not happen or that it wasn’t caused by airplanes crashing into the buildings.

    Only the truly deranged believe the ‘Official fairytale report’ of 9/11

  14. The towers were profitable.

    They probably were in the early years, when they were largely empty, with the only tenants being govt agencies forced to move there, but by 2000 and later the buildigns were pretty much filled, at pretty much downtown NYC market rates.

    There was a feeding frenzy to buy the lease of the buildings in 2001. You don’t have big real estate companies fighting to lease buildings that are money losers.

  15. They probably were –unprofitable– in the early years

  16. or that it wasn’t caused by airplanes crashing into the buildings.

    You have been duped.

  17. and they also had to clear all the remains away for investigations etc

    The steel was whisked away double quick time and melted down in China.

  18. Phantom,
    I agree that they should have rebuilt the twin towers, although whether people would want to work in them is another matter.
    A museum (I think) affords an opportunity for perpetrators and sympathisers to gloat, for others -I don’t know. My suspicion is that anyway, this won’t be the last outrage in the US.
    It was an outrage -an act of cowardice by ruthless men of evil intent representing a religion spattered with blood and vindictiveness.
    My eyes fill with tears just thinking about 9/11

  19. My memory of that day is being at work and receiving a call from a friend when the first plane hit the tower and then being glued to the radio and TV as things unfolded. As more news stories emerged including the news of the attack on the Pentagon I was sent to inform some senior managers in a long meeting who were unaware of what was unfolding. A brief (and false) report on the radio was indicating that Planes were attacking Chicago and Los Angeles and that troops were on the streets in London evacuating the centre. I guess the newscaster was just revealing every wild rumour that was circulating.

    I will always remember as I walked into the meeting room the feeling of instant almost panicky fear that I felt as I informed the group about the incredulous events and wondering what else was going to happen.

  20. Major buildings in Chicago were evacuated and people sent home, as they were sure that they would be next.

  21. There was a feeding frenzy to buy the lease of the buildings in 2001. You don’t have big real estate companies fighting to lease buildings that are money losers.

    Perhaps the companies bidding for the lease were not fully aware of the costs of removal of asbestos. Costs etc. to the Port Authority are explained and shown from source reports as of 47.50. Luckily ‘lucky’ Larry Silverstein got the deal and describes at 55.00 just how lucky he was on 9/11:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

    The asbestos ended up in the lungs of the first responders and they are suffering terrible rates of lung disease and death.

  22. There is asbestos in many buildings constructed in the early 1970s and before.

    I have asbestos in my basement’s boiler room, because left in place, it causes no harm.

    Now should a Boeing 767 hit the building, that asbestos would be harmful, so there you have the beginnings of a point.

  23. From 49.02, the asbestos problem and the changing regulations meant that for every renovation in the Twin Towers, asbestos had to be removed and that was costly as described at 50.50, and this cost was increasing with no end in site. Up to $1 billion for asbestos removal as a bill for the Port Authority.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

  24. Maybe I’ll look at that video later.

    Do you have any links to printed descriptions of this alleged issue, from non-Truther sources?

  25. What is your point anyway?

    That Dick Cheney and a real estate guy flew planes into the buildings because of asbestos costs?

  26. The point is at 5.15pm

  27. One of the problems for the sane here is one can’t put up a post on the topic like Mike did without the inevitable lunatic fringe coming in with their truther nonsense. Every time. Facts are meaningless to them. They bore the shit out of me.

  28. Mahons, on May 16th, 2014 at 1:57 AM Said:

    One of the problems for the sane here is one can’t put up a post on the topic like Mike did without the inevitable lunatic fringe coming in with their truther nonsense. Every time. Facts are meaningless to them. They bore the shit out of me.

    Likewise with ignorant here who just can’t handle the truth, you bore the shit out of me.

    You have been duped.

  29. And now, there is a museum, to constantly remind you just how ignorant to the facts you really are.

    And they are only going to charge you $24 Dollars for the privilige .

    Only in America.

    Mugs.

    Mahons you would never in a million years wish to (or ever have) get into any form of debate over 9/11 ‘facts’ .. for the simple fact, you would be taken to the cleaners.

    You really have not got a clue.

    You are a coward in absolute denial.

  30. Mahons

    Why was there pools of molten metal at the base of the Twin Towers?

    Your government can not and will not answer that ‘Fact’ so you have absolutley no chance.

    Mahons

    Why do your governemnt refuse point blank to release any footage of one of the thousands of cctv cameras from the Pentagon, and footage from one of the surrounding businesses that the FBI whisked away from the owners?

    Mahons

    Where did the wings, engines, seats, bodies, fuselage, wheels, airframe, go after the Pentagon ‘attack’

    There are hundreds more ‘facts’ to bore you with, and not one of them could you answer.

    Have a good day, and try and walk around with your eyes actually open for once, and mind those lampposts, they hurt when you bump into them 😉

  31. Harri, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:04 AM Said:

    Mahons, on May 16th, 2014 at 1:57 AM Said:

    One of the problems for the sane here is one can’t put up a post on the topic like Mike did without the inevitable lunatic fringe coming in with their truther nonsense. Every time. Facts are meaningless to them. They bore the shit out of me.

    This is what I love about ATW, the shear diversity, now we have the real lunatics attempting (very weakly I might add) to label others as lunatics, and all because they either can’t be arsed to debate facts about 9/11 which frightens them to death, or they really are ‘lunatics’ .. a bit of both methinks.

    Mahons

    Carry on.. Yawn

  32. One of the problems for the sane here is one can’t put up a post on the topic like Mike did without the inevitable lunatic fringe coming in with their truther nonsense. Every time. Facts are meaningless to them. They bore the shit out of me.

    But Mahons,
    I do believe you were the one who advised me to ignore Allan’s stuff on Israel/the Holocaust/Conspiracy theories? You were quite right of course, because those debates generated far more heat than light. I would be surprised and disappointed if a man like yourself would allow himself to be put off commenting here on ATW.
    I for one enjoyed your occasional lapses into whimsy, and ATW has definitely been duller without your input.

  33. Bush played his part, badly I might add, but played it he did, why would he need to be there now?

    Where’s Bush? 9/11 victims upset by former president’s absence at museum dedication as spokesman says there was a ‘scheduling conflict’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2630088/Wheres-Bush-9-11-victims-upset-ex-presidents-absence-museum-commemoration-spokesman-says-scheduling-conflict.html#ixzz31rmwEEDF

  34. One of the problems for the sane here is one can’t put up a post on the topic like Mike did without the inevitable lunatic fringe coming in with their truther nonsense.

    If Carlsberg made dupes, they would be termed ‘mahons’.

    Back to reality.

    On this thread whilst discussing the reconstruction of the zone destroyed on 9/11 (NB WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING WHO DID IT!!!), it was suggested by Phantom that the twin towers should be constructed exactly as they were.

    Phantom, on May 15th, 2014 at 4:39 PM Said:
    I would have rebuilt the Towers as they were, at the identical location,

    I pointed out that the towers were well past their peak and that huge asbestos-related costs rendered them unprofitable to the owner, with source documents cited in the link:

    Allan@Aberdeen, on May 15th, 2014 at 5:15 PM Said:
    The towers were making enormous losses, yet could not be demolished or dismantled without enormous cost to the owner. See as of 47.50:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

    Another dupe agrees with Phantom:

    Agit8ed, on May 15th, 2014 at 6:40 PM Said:
    Phantom,
    I agree that they should have rebuilt the twin towers

    Again I had to point out the energy inefficiency and huge asbestos-related costs which are indisputable fact and noting that nobody has disputed the fact but that the dupes have gone off on all sorts of ‘truther’ hunts.

    So, here are the facts:

    1. the twin towers could not be reconstructed because they were energy inefficient and costly. Besides, surely their collapse according to the official theory makes the design unsafe?
    2. the twin towers could not be dismantled, disassembled etc without incurring grossly unacceptable costs, including asbestos removal
    3. the actual destruction worked out well for the owners even though the asbestos ended up in the lungs of the first responders

  35. Harri/Allan

    I ask you what was gained by the US attacking itself and killing 3000 of it’s own people?

    How has it benefited anyone that you believe were behind it?

    I don’t see the logic in it. I don’t see how it has benefited anyone other than the forces of radical Islam. Today 14yrs later they are stronger and growing in more places than before 9/11.

    Please explain the gains that have been achieved by any other group.

  36. Harri is a follower here. Allan is a creature of the lie.

    Those buildings were money making profit machines ultimately. Thats why multiple real estate firms vied to buy leases, after their due diligence process.

    Allan if you care to give a concise written citing of your sourcing for this assertion, lets have it. Screw your youtubes.

    Every older building has asbestos in it. Doesn’t stop them from making money.

  37. Not too much time at present, but I will refer you back to this Phantom, Troll

    Harri, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:20 AM Said:

    Mahons

    Why was there pools of molten metal at the base of the Twin Towers?

    Your government can not and will not answer that ‘Fact’ so you have absolutley no chance.

    Mahons

    Why do your governemnt refuse point blank to release any footage of one of the thousands of cctv cameras from the Pentagon, and footage from one of the surrounding businesses that the FBI whisked away from the owners?

  38. By the way.

    Bush is a shit actor 😉

    I mean really really crap at it.

    About as good as Barry OBlimey is at speeches without the aid of a teleprompter 😉

  39. //I don’t see the logic in it. I don’t see how it has benefited anyone other than the forces of radical Islam.//

    It certainly benefitted American neo-cons, and anyone – on both sides – hoping to see a big confrontation between the US and Islam, which was, after all, the purpose of the attacks.

    That is benefitted neither in the long run is simply because the war mongers on both sides were too stupid to think things through. But it did promote their agendas at the time.

    The collapse of the towers no doubt benefitted many other people too, e.g. David Childs. Everything benefits somebody; the qui bono argument is one of the most brainless around.

  40. A Truther thought that he had an ally in lefty Noam Chomsky.

    But Chomsky slapped him down with precision.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vpgBiZoLXU

  41. = cui bono

  42. The ‘Official report’ is something akin to the Twilight zone

    It’s not only the biggest lie of the 21st century, it’s the worst.

    You have been duped.

    Another question, why did the missile batteries at the Pentagon not shoot the *cough cough 757 down?

    Where did all the rest of the aircraft dissapear to? (the parts that did not manage to punch through the reinforced walls of the Pentagon?

    Why, only the one cctv camera footage?

    There are many, many unanswered questions.

    The only true ‘conspiracy theory’ is the load of waffle and BS which the lunatics accepted as the ‘Official report’

  43. Those buildings were money making profit machines ultimately. Thats why multiple real estate firms vied to buy leases, after their due diligence process.

    Allan if you care to give a concise written citing of your sourcing for this assertion, lets have it.

    Phantom – the reason why I have put links to video footage and at specific times is because the source documentation from the New York Port Authority is opened at those specific times for you and anyone else to see. Btw, given that you are an admirer of the $6billion (loss) Man, Jamie Dimon, your use of the phrase ‘due diligence’ as applied to real estate firms in New York caused a guffaw when I read it.

    Now what of my claimed facts do you dispute?

    I ask you what was gained by the US attacking itself and killing 3000 of it’s own people?

    Troll – were any neo-cons killed in 9/11? None of THEIR people were killed and Joe Public isn’t among their people – neither are you btw.

  44. one of Bush’s cabinet secretaries wives was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Oh I know he didn’t want to divorce her so he had her whisked away with all the other passengers that they “disappeared” so the plane could be replaced by a missile.

    You haven’t answered the question, who and how has profited by the attacks other than radical islam?

  45. //You haven’t answered the question, who and how has profited by the attacks other than radical islam?//

    I answered it at 12:07.

  46. “How easy is it for you to shift your belief system from ‘I totally believe in my government’ to ‘Oh My God! What’s going on?’ That’s exactly where I went in all of this.” – Albert N. Stubblebine III

    Albert N. Stubblebine III is a retired Major General in the United States Army. He was the commanding general of the United States Army Intelligence and Security Command from 1981 to 1984. In this compelling interview, Stubblemine reveals the following information (what he calls “dots”) about the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001:
    ■Stubblebine initially believed the official story regarding 9/11.
    ■Then, he saw the hole in the Pentagon. He can prove that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757. DOT.
    ■All of the sensors around the Pentagon were turned off except one. That one sensor captured an image of the object the hit the Pentagon. It looked like a missile. But, after he went public, the imagery was changed to look like a plane. DOT.
    ■The collapse of the twin towers was caused by controlled demolition – not the fuel from the airplane. DOT.
    ■Larry Silverstein, the lease holder of the WTC complex, admitted that that building 7, which was not hit by a plane and had only a small fire, was intentionally “pulled” – which is phraseology used for controlled demolition. DOT.
    ■All of the air defense systems around Washington DC were turned off that day. DOT.
    ■Also on 9/11, there was an exercise designed to mimic an attack on the towers by airplanes. DOT.
    ■When you connect the DOTs, the picture says that what we were told by the media was not the real story.
    ■Stubblebine, visibly upset, describes how he felt when he realized the truth about his government after having a strong belief in his country since early childhood: “My belief system was so strong from age five when I could remember standing on a parade ground at attention with not anybody telling me to do that – at West Point.”

    Below are some notes from the interview including a partial transcript. (Be sure to watch all the way to the the end, where you can see the deep hurt on his face when he recalled the moment that he realized that his government, the government that he proudly served for over 30 years, was not what he thought was):

    5:15 Stubblebine hears about the 9/11 attacks: “We’re at war.”

    6:00 Stubblebine said there must have been intelligence information to know that an attack was coming and we didn’t see the signals. Somebody missed it.

    6:35 He initially believed that it was terrorist attack done by other forces: “Not my government.”

    7:45 Stubblebine then saw a photo of the Pentagon showing the hole in the Pentagon supposedly made by a Boeing 757. “Something’s wrong. There is something wrong with this picture…”

    8:30 “Well there was something wrong. And, so I analyzed it not just photographically, I did measurements… I checked the plane, the length of the nose, where the wings were… I took measurements of the Pentagon – the depth of the destruction in the Pentagon.”

    9:05 “Conclusion: airplane did not make that hole.”

    9:10” I went public at the time. I am the highest ranking officer, I believe, that has ever gone public… The official story was not true.”

  47. Another dupe agrees with Phantom:
    Agit8ed, on May 15th, 2014 at 6:40 PM Said:
    Phantom,
    I agree that they should have rebuilt the twin towers

    Allan
    No one discussed the method of construction or materials used, only whether or not they should be re-built.

  48. Noel Cunningham,

    = cui bono

    Why point a finger at Bono? He may be a crap singer, but he didn’t plan, carry out, or even praise the attacks; so why blame him?

  49. lol that was good mike

  50. I pointed out that the towers were well past their peak and that huge asbestos-related costs rendered them unprofitable to the owner, with source documents cited in the link:

    Anyone and I mean ANYONE, who would suggest that the towers were taken down for financial reasons has to be at least as sick as someone who would dispute the actual numbers killed in the Holocaust without even a casual “Shame” tossed in the direction of those who were starved/shot/tortured/experimented on/gassed ~~~ regardless of exact figures.

  51. Harri where’s the profit?

  52. The twin towers were completed in 1971.

    They were all of 28 years old when the attack took place.

    These buildings were not ” well past their peak ” -they were relatively new for Gods sake. The Empire State Building isn’t ” obsolete ” either. It makes a ton of money, and its 42 years older than the WTC towers were.

    The WTC amenities were all modern, and the large open floor plans were desirable to renters, especially by the standards of lower Manhattan, where many large buildings were many decades older.

    Poor Allan is even more uninformed than usual when he says that these buildings were money losers. These endless comments by him on this matter are simply of no value.

  53. Once again, I point to the evidence linked below, specifically at 47.50 where the costs related to asbestos removal are provided from source material of the Port Authority of New York. The other fact which is beyond dispute is that the owner of the towers received huge compensation for the destroyed buildings, due mainly to a fortuitously prescient insurance policy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

    As a general question but of those who are involving themselves in this discussion (Phantom, Agit, Troll), have any of you looked at the evidence which I cite in my support prior to this post?

  54. All the owners of major buildings in NYC or elsewhere have significant liability and property insurance policies.

    They’d never buy the buildings if they couldn’t have those protections. No one would invest along with them if those policies were not in place.

    There’s nothing at all fortuitous about the policies being in place. In the real estate world, such coverage is universal.

    You’re completely wrong on this subject. What a surprise.

  55. Some welcome news … the reflecting pools are no longer fenced off. I don’t understand why they had to be fenced off for such a long period.

    http://gothamist.com/2014/05/16/911_memorial_fences.php

  56. The Troll, on May 16th, 2014 at 1:14 PM Said:

    Harri where’s the profit?

    What in $$$$’S Troll or power?

  57. Just look at your airports, that boogeyman has you afraid of your own shadows..

    Who won exactly?

    Keep the serfs in a constant state of fear, that is some powerful tool your masters have.

    We could compare 9/11 with our 7/7, the parallels are frightening, (there goes that magic and amazing coincidence again) , full anti-terrorist emergency services training going on the very same time and day the bombs were detonated, cctv’s not working, the official report falling down on the first paragraph, blah blah blah.

    You have been duped.

  58. I travel by air and am not afraid of anything.

    Are you?

  59. Harri, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:08 PM Said:

    The Troll, on May 16th, 2014 at 1:14 PM Said:

    Harri where’s the profit?

    Troll,

    Where did the pools of molten steel come from, why were they there, why did millions of tonnes of reinforced concrete turn to dust, why was NORAD not working, where were the fighter jets, and why were they sent on a training course miles away, why did scientists find Nano-thermite explosives in the dust even months after the collaspe (PPM ‘Parts per miilion) estimate the total explosive highly energetic material to be in excess of 10 tonnes .. the list is endless.

    Troll

    And you are concerned with profit?

  60. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:16 PM Said:

    I travel by air and am not afraid of anything.

    Are you?

    No, I don’t feel afraid either when travelling by Bus, train and tube, we had those blown up, and there is no ‘security’ at any bus stops, stations or terminals.

  61. The Islamics have a particular fascination with commercial aircraft going back decades before Sept 11.

    But I don’t recommend that you forget the possibility of more incidents in buses or trains. I haven’t.

  62. But I don’t recommend that you forget the possibility of more incidents in buses or trains. I haven’t.

    But I am not afraid Phantom.

    Are you?

    And we are absolutly surrounded by muslims, millions of them in fact, and I still don’t even give it a second thought.

  63. Phantom,

    ‘allegedly’ Islamic fanatics hijack your planes, whilst you government hijack your minds.

    Phantom

    You are a man of the world and well travelled, just why do we not have airport tight security at Bus stops, terminals and railway stations?

    And where did those pools of molten steel come from at the base of the twin towers?

  64. You don’t give it a second thought? Well, please do give it a second thought.

    I’m not sure that never thinking about a very real peril is the best strategery I’ve ever heard.

    The only reason you’ve not had multiple additional incidents in London and places like that is the hard and unrecognized work of your police, spooks and military, and ours, and their counterparts in a lot of other places.

    The next time you see a cop or a soldier, or when they x ray your carry on at Heathrow I want you to say thank you for this.

    You can go forward in the world, conscious of all its perils, while being generally unafraid. I recommend this highly.

  65. Phantom

    You are a man of the world and well travelled, just why do we not have airport tight security at Bus stops, terminals and railway stations?

    Instead of none at all, nothing, zilch, zero, no searches, no questions, no pat downs, no bag checks, no x-rays of baggage or luggage, just the odd drug search on da local yoof at south London stations, and some cctv cameras (which never seem to work when an attrocity is taking place apparently)

  66. There’s nothing at all fortuitous about the policies being in place. In the real estate world, such coverage is universal.

    It’s fortuitous to get insurance policies to cover total destruction in the event of terrorist attack, and extremely fortuitous to have the demolished buildings declared destroyed in separate terrorist events. Now Phantom – have you watched the segment of the documentary as queried at 4.20pm? All the matter of current discussion is addressed there, especially the value or otherwise of the towers.

  67. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:40 PM Said:

    You don’t give it a second thought? Well, please do give it a second thought.

    I’m not sure that never thinking about a very real peril is the best strategery I’ve ever heard.

    Ah, I see, you are talking about ‘Fear’ are you not, okay what should I do, be in ‘fear’ of every muslim or olive skinned human being wearing a rucksack?

    No thanks, they are not the government they mean me no harm.

    I thought you were not afraid? you are afraid, your guvmint has made dam sure you are.

  68. Allan

    I know for a fact that terrorism is a covered cause of loss on nearly every large commercial program that covers prominent buildings in the US.

    I place this insurance every day myself – and have done so in the entire period since 2001. I have never accepted any limitations on terrorism as a cause of loss.

    This isn’t your subject. Don’t talk about this. It is entirely outside your experience.

  69. Harri

    You don’t have to be blind to be unafraid.

  70. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:54 PM Said:

    Harri

    You don’t have to be blind to be unafraid.

    Oh believe me Phantom, I see crystal clear thanks, mores the pity a few more don’t, and the murdering cold blooded shits who wield all that power and want even more until that power is absolute might not have got clean away with slaughtering over 3000 innnocents on 9/11.

    Phantom, There is no big bad boogeyman coming to get you, or there is, but he aint who or what you think he his.

  71. More smoking guns.

    The failure of standard operating procedures

    The failure of SOP to intercept Flight 175

    The failure of SOP to intercept Flight 77

    The failure of SOP to intercept Flight 11

    The fighter jets which were scrambled from much further away ‘Otis airforce base’ and ‘Langley airforce base’ at full throttle should have reached New York were ordered back to Washington… why?

    Vive President Cheney ordered them to ‘stand down’.. again, why?

    Why did the South Tower fall first, it was hit second, and had the smallest fire?

    Why were there no remains of a fully laden jet-liner inside the Pentagon?

  72. Why did Bush state “When he saw the first plane hit” .. er, no he didn’t.

    That’s impossible.

  73. Ah, Harri

  74. Why did whatever hit the Pentagon, hit it on the W

  75. Harri, on May 16th, 2014 at 8:59 PM Said:

    Why did whatever hit the Pentagon, hit it on the West Wing, techincally that is the hardest part of the Pentagon to attack?

  76. How did whatever hit the Pentagon actually hit the Pentagon, any non-miltary aircraft without a ‘freindly transponder’ should have been automatically shot down by the Pentagons batteries of missiles?

  77. Whatever hit the Pentagon flew for over 40 minutes hurtling at terminal velocity towards the Pentagon unchallenged .. why? and how did that happen.

  78. Why did the Bush administration lie about not shooting down Flight 93?

  79. Why didn’t the Mets score any runs last night?

  80. Why did Bush react the way he did after being told that ‘America is under attack’ when he was visiting that school, apparently he was told there are two further aircraft unaccounted for and are heading towards possible targets, would the Secrect Service not have whisked the President away to safety?

  81. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 9:08 PM Said:

    Why didn’t the Mets score any runs last night?

    I have no idea Phantom

    Why did the FBI confiscate all cctv footage from businesses around the Pentagon and refuse to hand them over for scrutiny?

  82. Troll

    You love guns, but obviously not smoking guns.

  83. As a general question but of those who are involving themselves in this discussion (Phantom, Agit, Troll), have any of you looked at the evidence which I cite in my support prior to this post?

    4I haven’t looked at your link and that is because maybe a year or so ago I went through a whole lot of stuff on youtube and other websites about the anomalies surrounding the events of 9/11.
    I certainly agree that there are anomalies and unanswered questions, more or less as listed by Harri, but
    No one seems able to do anything about it. If there is a coverup we aren’t going to find out what the truth is. You guys don’t really know, you can only pose questions, and I suspect that most of what happened was due to the US departments involved finding it hard to believe what was really happening. Whether Bush’s administration had anything to do with it is incredibly hard to believe.
    To what purpose, to what end would a US admin sanction the killing of thousands of American citizens on American soil?

  84. In an incident like this, all facts are not wrapped up in a bow.

    It would be nice if they were.

    These guys debunk themselves

  85. To what purpose, to what end would a US admin sanction the killing of thousands of American citizens on American soil?

    Spread fear, and increase power over the serfs.

    It worked.

    Why did the FBI fire and subsequently gag Sibel Edmonds after she reported that all investigations into 9/11 were being sabotaged at every twist and turn?

  86. Yes, GW Bush created the false flag incident with Saudi and Egyptian dupes to sell the story that Iraq needed to be invaded.

    Got it.

  87. And Julie Sirrs, the same happended to her, and why was no-one punished for acting incompetently or obstructively in relation to 9/11 – whether in the FAA, the CIA, the DIA, the NSA, the Justice department, the Whitehouse. NORAD, the Pentagon or the US military?

  88. Spread fear, and increase power over the serfs.

    It worked.

    I don’t buy it Harri. If we’re honest we all recognise that as individuals there is little we can do against a determined State. We know there has to be a hierarchy, we know that we are dependent on our government for leadership. So how could a government sanction slaying its own citizens to increase its hold?
    What developments since do we see that back up your assertion?

  89. Why did the Bush Administration refuse to reveal any of the identities of those who purchased options in United airlines, American airlines, and Morgan Stanley Dean Witter?

  90. Why did the White House refuse all attempts by the already hand-picked feeble ‘9/11 Commission’ to try and learn how the 9/11 attacks could have possibly happended?

  91. So how could a government sanction slaying its own citizens to increase its hold?
    What developments since do we see that back up your assertion?

    The Patriot act in the States after 9/11

    The Civil contingemncies act after 7/7

    The ‘axis of evil’ fear fear fear.

    Give away a little bit of freedom and liberty for a little bit of security, you will soon find you have lost the lot.

  92. Harri, on May 16th, 2014 at 9:49 PM Said:

    Agit

    No matter why they did it, they did it.

    But how they say it happened is impossible.

    9/11 is an remains a monumental deception.

  93. The 9/11 commission should have consisted of

    Alex Jones
    Rosie O’Donnell
    Danny Glover
    Charlie Sheeen
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    James Von Brunn ( Holocaust Museum murderer )
    Oliver Stone
    Allan from Aberdeen
    Pete Carroll ( NFL Coach )

    They should form a ” people’s 9/11 truth commission “

  94. harri

    Maybe it didn’t happen at all.

  95. Agit

    No matter why they did it, they did it.

    9/11 is an remains a monumental deception.

    Harri,
    the President, the Government, black ops, Israel, Saudi Arabia, neoCons, extremist Muslims all came together to varying degrees in some sort of conspiracy, and no one, not even the latest whistleblower Edward Snowden and skilled hackers have uncovered or admitted anything?

    It doesn’t make sense Harri. What has happened is that America has the same problems as us, with potential enemies living in our midst, and Barack Obama having been elected twice to POTUS. There is no discernable pattern.

  96. I certainly agree that there are anomalies and unanswered questions, more or less as listed by Harri

    Precisely Agit, and that is why ironically you get the real life and true lunatics weakly labelling anyone who even dares to question the events of 9/11 and BS ‘facts’ which there ‘Leaders’ have instilled in there tiny closed minds.

    As you have witnessed, not one person with one single answer to any of the questions, I had absolutely no doubt about it.

    There are loads, and I mean loads more which are not anomalies, they are facts which blows the ‘Official fairytale report’ to pieces.

    To put all this into context, I give you Trolls take on the Twin Towers collapse

    “It was the clips, they melted”

    Oh dear God.

  97. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 9:52 PM Said:

    harri

    Maybe it didn’t happen at all.

    Agit

    As I said, the mindset of an American ;-(

    Oh dear God help us all.

  98. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 9:51 PM Said:

    The 9/11 commission should have consisted of

    Alex Jones
    Rosie O’Donnell
    Danny Glover
    Charlie Sheeen
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    James Von Brunn ( Holocaust Museum murderer )
    Oliver Stone
    Allan from Aberdeen
    Pete Carroll ( NFL Coach )

    They should form a ” people’s 9/11 truth commission “

    The sad thing is, I can’t even blame it on the drink this time

    *Sigh.

  99. Buy me beer.

  100. Phantom

    It’s not me or Allan you are taking the piss out of ..

    It’s the 3000 odd human beings who slaughtered on 9/11

    Well done old chap, you have stooped to an all time low. Maybe it is the drink .. again.

  101. Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 10:05 PM Said:

    Buy me beer.

    I will buy you a beer for each and every question of mine you rightly answer

    So, you will just have to go thirsty or buy it yourself 😉

  102. Allan harri

    You saddos are the ones who mock the dead with your Trutherism.

    It is well noted that Allan absolutely despises America and wants it’s power destroyed. And this is the guy who pretends to sheds crocodile tears about those deaths. Because he loves us so much, you see.

    You are an innocent enough chap it seems, but you care caught up in the Kingdom of Lies, and once you’re in this deep, you are unlikely to escape.

    Question more.

  103. Phantom just gets funnier and funnier.

    Phantom, on May 16th, 2014 at 7:51 PM Said:

    Allan

    I know for a fact that terrorism is a covered cause of loss on nearly every large commercial program that covers prominent buildings in the US.

    I place this insurance every day myself – and have done so in the entire period since 2001. I have never accepted any limitations on terrorism as a cause of loss.

    This isn’t your subject. Don’t talk about this. It is entirely outside your experience.

    Since 2001? What happened in 2001? And as for “this isn’t your subject”, well, this is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAp8eCEqNA

    From above, the high school level physics should be within the grasp of the non-technical on this site. Unfortunately, the education system failed – or is the absolute ignorance of physics displayed by Phantom, Agit, Troll what was really intended?

  104. Actually, since way before then.

    Silverstein’s program covered terrorism, as all major programs tend to cover it.

    Why would you expect it -not- to be covered?

    Again, I touch these deals every day and I have never accepted a terrorism exclusion at any time.

    You act like you’ve discovered something, when all you’ve discovered is that water is wet.

  105. Enough of your home videos. If you can’t make your case without them, speak about something else.

  106. Enough of your home videos. If you can’t make your case without them, speak about something else.

    Phantom – the material within the linked video at 47.50 reveals the costs related to asbestos removal provided by source material from the Port Authority of New York. I don’t have the documents of the Port Authority to hand so I have to provide links to those who can show them directly as source material. There they are, as of 47.50. Besides, when making a case, one must provide evidence in support of that case otherwise one is a mere haverer like yourself. As an engineer, I couldn’t get away with that, though clearly you can but you’re in the insurance sector where anything goes:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA

  107. Former President George W. Bush skipped 9/11 museum dedication because event ‘would’ve been too emotional’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2631253/Former-President-George-W-Bush-skipped-9-11-museum-dedication-event-wouldve-emotional.html#ixzz31zoeAwCX

    Guilty conscience catching up with him is it?

  108. Guilty conscience catching up with him is it?

    Maybe, though probably not. These goys are selected because of their absence of conscience – and that ‘quality’ runs like a streak through the political families such as the Bushes and Clintons.