web analytics

Schadenfreude

By ATWadmin On January 4th, 2007

This submission is not about my personal feelings towards power sharing with terrorists.  Any long-term visitor to ATW knows that I would gladly lease Devil’s Island from the French and intern every damn IRA supporter in the manner endured by Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman.  No, this is about the great delight I and thousands of others are taking at the implosion of the republican monolith.  True we Unionists have had splits and differences of opinion and will continue to do so.  If I have the opportunity to come over to Ulster and campaign on behalf of the UK Unionist Party, as I did in 1998, I will gladly do so.  This is, nonetheless, for another day.

Whilst the pro-Union bloc saw the greatest division nine years ago, this time the accolade belongs to the IRA.  On the one hand you have Gerry and Martin offering nebulous support for law and order.  On the other you have figures morally lower than even they as, one by one, they reject the official position.  For them, offering even the most dubious and begrudging endorsement of a law-enforcing agent not dressed like a scruffy pig in balaclava and filthy jeans is beyond the Pale.

There are those on Slugger who buy the Adams’ line.  We even have one cretin under the nom de plume of ‘Nationalist‘ who still subscribes to the ‘bonking Catholics reign supreme’ theory (poor deluded child that he is).  No doubt we will have the line-up of usual suspects on here telling us how united the terrorists are.  Poppycock!  Aside from erstwhile chums in the ‘dissident’ leagues, we have seen open dissension as upholding the law is too much for a not inconsiderable rump of IRA fans.  So sit back and enjoy their deepening discomfort with ever-broadening smiles. 

Who knows, they could get really bitter and start assassinating one another.  Aside from being the nadir of ironic moves – given that they used to support, excuse or enact the assassination of everybody else, wouldn’t the sight of the republican movement in-fighting be the very best political present for we democrats in 2007?

99 Responses to “Schadenfreude”

  1. So it was the fairies that robbed the Northern Bank and murdered the people of Omagh. The lack of convictions is clearly another consession to Republicans, but now Adams is discovering the take, take, take attitude he typified is coming back to bite him

  2. If Republicans can’t counternence dealing with police becasue of the past, but expect the rest of us to simply forget IRA barbarity and accept SF (including ex and recent IRA terrorists) in government. Once again we see the selfish, one-sided, bigoted nature of Irish Nationalism.

  3. "Once again we see the selfish, one-sided, bigoted nature of Irish Nationalism."

    Regarding Irish nationalism as "selfish" and (cough) "bigoted" based on SF being reluctant (but not refusing) to accept the new police force is a tad harsh, don’t you think?!!

  4. NRG
    You got it in one. All republican crimes have to be forgiven (next up concession will be the return of the "on the run" murderers), but all crimes against them must be subject to public enquiry.

  5. You campaigned for the UK Unionists, a party which had a member who advised Unionists to sue for a United Ireland with the democratic Republic now rather than countenance Sinn Fein in government north of the border later?

  6. Yes I did. That’s the difference between the UK Unionists and Sinn Fein. Different ideas are accommodated, if not agreed with. It’s what makes the UKU like every other democratic party within this Kingdom, and makes the IRA the black sheep in the same context.

    My two unswerving principles are this:

    1. Northern Ireland stays in the UK permanently – with no equivocation.
    2. No power sharing with people committed to the destruction of the Union.

    As the UKU comes closest to these principles, it has been my party of choice since I left the DUP in 1997.

    Got a problem with that?

  7. Reg, no not really. Not based on the one issue (though it would be enough) but on long observation.

    I would have been content if we had all drawn a line and got on the the future, but SF have refused to operate on the same standards as anyone else.

  8. gosh. this is a weird one Andrew.

    No Unionist apart from yourself and Michael Stone would like to see this split ferment. the consequences of this is that again our people will endure a cowardly and pointless murder campaign.

    to assume that Gerry’s interest in Policing is benign is pretty mad to , see See Peter Hains Colonial dictate to his Sinn Fein allies leaked earlier.
    Sinn Fein will only endorse policing when they are in a position of authority to undermine it. This has already been agreed I would argue.
    the fact that the central criminals of recent history and those who murdered and humiliated the innocent of this province could be given any hand in the judicial system is a surprisingly upsetting slap in the face even for the forgotten widows, widowers, greiving parents and orphans of IRA violence (for whom the denigration of their suffering and the slander of their patriot dead / wives / children/ grannies / grandads etc. is a regular occurrence).

    the only two outcomes here is either one of the most rank injustices in Irish history (the criminal Provisional movement given authority on policing) or the fracturing of the republican movement and a return to their (much applauded in certain circles) murder campaign. there is nothing to smile about.

    Anyone with even the slightest understanding of the realities of Northern Ireland could see this.

  9. "I would gladly lease Devil’s Island from the French and intern every damn IRA supporter in the manner endured by Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman."

    Hmm, presumably this means that each would get a luxury trailer, limousine, helicopter, private chef, and lots of other perks. That’s very generous of you but who’s going to finance all of that?

  10. Juan – most shinners now accept that they cannot and will not be able to force us into a UI. They are trying to bluff us into one.

  11. <Q>That’s very generous of you but who’s going to finance all of that?</Q>

    We will be bringing back the penal laws.

  12. "We will be bringing back the penal laws. "

    Good call. I’m told Dustin Hoffman owns a horse worth more than £10. Will he be allowed to keep it?

  13. When did Dustin move to NI ?

    As an aside – is it true that non-jews cannot buy land in Israel ?

  14. AFAIK, no one can buy land in Israel. It can be leased though.

  15. Talking of Israel – where’s Felix ?

  16. Dammit Colm – you had to say that!

  17. Well it’s worked in the past – Like rubbing a magic lamp, he may just appear 😉

  18. I think you have to say his name 3 times, like Beetle Juice.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094721/

  19. >>1. Northern Ireland stays in the UK permanently – with >>no equivocation.

    Really!! Even if the people themselves decide in a democratic referendum for something other then the Union. (Doesnt have to be a UI you know ). Would you fight them to keep them in the Union. Would you send in the troops to change their mind. The participation of NI within the Union is enshrined in international law as one of consent. If they choose to leave, then there is nothing to stop them. Same for the English and Scots. Im not saying its likely anytime in the future, but i am standing behind the principal of it.

    >>2. No power sharing with people committed to the >>destruction of the Union.

    Pretty harsh that eh.

    What would you do with the other 40 odd percent. Deny them the right to vote or only give them the option of voting for pro union parties.

    Would you band the alliance party and the SDLP. Have them on a list of prohibited parties or something like that. Or is it a case of they are allowed to exist but only as opposition parties, never to be allowed into party.

    And would this then extend to the mainland, with SNP and Plaid Cumru suffering the same consequences.

    Seriously, could you expand a bit on how you would implement this.

  20. Oops, some terrible spelling mistakes and wrong words there. Rushed it out between meetings.

    ‘Band’ should read ‘Ban’

    ‘never to be allowed into party.’ should read ‘never to be allowed into government’.

  21. "My two unswerving principles are this:

    1. Northern Ireland stays in the UK permanently – with no equivocation.
    2. No power sharing with people committed to the destruction of the Union."

    My only issue is that you seem to be deciding for others, which isn’t exactly democratic.

    What if the majority of the voting electorate in Northern Ireland want to leave the UK and vote as such and as a result the UK parliament passes the required legislation allowing them to do so?

  22. Kloot

    "And would this then extend to the mainland, with SNP and Plaid Cumru suffering the same consequences. "

    SNP and PC already "suffer" the consequences of democracy. They are not in government,

    "Oops, some terrible spelling mistakes and wrong words there."

    Don’t let Ernest see ;o)

  23. Alan

    I saw you rubbing the lamp on the thread about abortion re Frank.

  24. Ireland will be united when the scales fall from Unionist eyes that they ain’t British.
    But plain ol bogtrotters like the rest of us.
    Its just a spell that needs breaking 😉

  25. what’s gaelic for "Abracadabra "?

  26. Kloot – SF being forced into Government sends a dreadful message to SNP and PC – you aren’t in Government because you haven’t killed and maimed as SF/IRA have done, with the obvious conclusion for them being that in order to get into Government they should start killing and maiming.

  27. Are SF being forced into government I thought they wanted it?

  28. Aileen, Mad

    Just to be clear, I wasnt referring to Sinn Fein. Im not talking about the forced coalition in NI. Andrews statement is bigger then that.

    Andrew states:
    "No power sharing with people committed to the destruction of the Union."

    The SDLP are committed to the destruction of the Union, SNP are, and Plaid Cumru are. My point was, that according to Andrew’s statement, these people should not be allowed into government. These means that people should not be allowed to vote for them. That means you either have to ban them or legal enshrine the position that even if the majority vote for them, they are not allowed form a government. And these are all peaceful democratic parties. Surely thats wrong

  29. The SDLP are committed to a vague aspiration to end the Union 🙂 When SF talk of destruction, they mean ending by violence ! (Clash of the Nit Pickers)

  30. The SDLP say they are "100%" for a United Ireland. Hardly sounds vague to me.

    I’m sure Andrew wouldn’t consider it vague.

  31. Kloot

    I know the overall point you are making. I was just making clear that SNP and PC are not in government. I know very little about PC, but I did get the impression somewhere that they were not (or maybe not all) and indepenance party, just wanted a local assembly. Not sure though as I had always thought of them as the Welsh SNP.

  32. <Q>The SDLP say they are "100%" for a United Ireland.</Q>

    That doesn’t necessarily involve the ending of the Union! Think about it – the ROI applies to rejoin the Union,The UK welcomes them, they get a United Ireland, a proper police force, an end to the Bishops bossing Bertie about, a Health service, they lose the expense of the pretend second language …. Sorted.

  33. Considering the Republic already has a better health service than Northern Ireland I don’t think that will happen Madradin.

    Wouldn’t like to be on your waiting lists.

    Anyway there were another 200,000 immigrants in 2006 looking for PPS numbers and public services so we’re more likely to become Polish than British. More Polish than Protestants nowadays.

    As for the bishop, I have been proved right on that point. I told you nothing would be decided this time of an election. No cross-party support, no deal. Not in election year. We’ll see if Bertie bowed post Dail election.

    As for the Irish language, hell the country can afford it.

    P.S.
    "Only the SDLP can deliver a United Ireland."

    That’s from their Westminster election manifesto so I think the union is safe for a while yet.

  34. You MUST be joking about the ROI ? It doesn’t HAVE a health service – it has chaos – that’s why Daisy Hill is knee deep in folks from across the border. BUPA and all that ? It’s health care service is a joke.

  35. Madradin,
    parts of it are crap alright but it has much shorter waiting lists for those waiting for surgical procedures.

    Check out the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Any longer than five months and you get flown anywhere to get it done.

    Northern Ireland waiting lists are a joke compared to it.

    Then there is also much better access to drugs than north of the border.

    Then there is the fact that the southern health budget is nearly three times the size of the northern one.

    Can you lose your house if you are a pensioner put into care in Northern Ireland?

  36. That’s cobblers Garfie – if you have the money or insurance in the ROI you are fine – same as anywhere.
    If the service is so good why the panic when BUPA announced they were pulling out? How come Daisy hill has so many from the wrong side of the border ?

    For all their aspirations, The Falls Road and the Bogside would go into meltdown if the residents thought they would have to pay to see a doctor!

  37. Madradin,
    no panic. Do you see anyone panicking? I have considered cancelling my private health insurance because this proves I don’t actually need it.

    I don’t know Daisy Hill but I would assume it’s people from nearby wanting to avoid paying the 85 euros you have to fork out to go to the hospital regardless of whether you lose a leg or get a stitch.

    A bit like your lot coming south for our cheap petrol. Doesn’t mean our filling stations are better.

    Of course, you don’t pay if you are a pensioner.

    As I said, not perfect but when it comes to waiting lists Northern Ireland is a disaster and the Republic is Nirvana.

    When it comes to getting drugs, it’s better in the South.

    When it comes to residential care, the government doesn’t steal old people’s houses like they do up North.

    When it comes to investment, the Irish government is spending much, much, much more.

    That’s how things are. It’s clear you don’t have arthritis for example.

  38. >>When it comes to getting drugs, it’s better in the South.<<

    Sure isnt that the source of most of our problems 🙂
    (got there before you mad 🙂 )

  39. <Q>When it comes to residential care, the government doesn’t steal old people’s houses like they do up North. </Q>

    Leas Cross….

    Must admit, always wondered about this house business – if pensioner needs care then they don’t need a house …. What that’s about surely is greedy offspring moaning because their "inheritance" is being taken to help fund their parent’s care in their last years.

    Drugs ? vaccine trials on kids in care ?

    But hey – it’s their system, they are welcome to it.
    Just bear in mind that the people of NI don’t want to be a part of it.

  40. >>Just bear in mind that the people of NI don’t want to be a part of it.<<

    I thought there were actual negotiations ongoing for cross border access to services from both sides of the border.

    Look, its not like either of these health services compares to the best in the world. Both are better in their own ways, although, the ROI in my humble opinion, has a good bit to go before it gets to where it should be

  41. Any fans of Kevin Myers here.

    Picked up his new book
    "Watching the Door, A memoir 1971 – 1978" cover his time as a journo in NI

    Im about a quarter of the way in and its fascinating. Its pretty vivid and what he describes is pretty horrendous.

  42. Kloot – for years people from the ROI have been using our healthcare services, here and in GB. Nothing new about that.

    No matter how much you sugar the pill the people of NI DON’T want to be part of a United Ireland.

  43. >>No matter how much you sugar the pill the people of NI DON’T want to be part of a United Ireland.<<

    Wasnt the point i was making.sorry. I dont believe that unionists Britishness is based on such matters.

    >>Kloot – for years people from the ROI have been using our healthcare services, here and in GB. Nothing new about that. <<

    Anyone can avail of health services anywhere in the EU if they are from an EU country. But I get the point your making. But im sure you will admit, that the majority of those using the services were working at the time. and therefore paid their way.

  44. Even before we joined the EU people from the ROI used British Healthcare services Kloot.

    And it’s not only those from the unionist/British/protestant side of the fence who are
    unenthusiastic about Unification, certainly in the short term.

  45. Agreed Mad, But they were working and hence paying tax. therefore entitled to it,

    If its any consolation, with the thousands of UK citizens moving to the ROI each year, they will get their own back on us… 🙂

  46. Agreed Mad, But they were working

    Some were, yes. Were all those from the ROI who used NI services working and paying tax in NI ? No.

    of course we are talking past tense here in respect of GB, Quite a few went over in the past for the benefits, healthcare and housing …. And unfortunately because they were given votes and because of the closeness of the battle between Tories and Labour they were pandered to and given undue influence.

    Did all those who came over and worked pay Tax ? You must be kidding – the building industry was a notorious example.

  47. >>And unfortunately because they were given votes<<

    UK citizens can vote in elections in the ROI and vice versa. Politicians will take a vote from anyone, thats what makes em the slimey people they are.

    >>Were all those from the ROI who used NI services working in NI ? No<<

    Havent a clue. As you say were are talking past tense. The reverse is now the case, with NI people regularly travelling south of the border to avail of job opportunities. That said, they are working and deserve their entitlements.

    Again, I would say that the majority, were working, although I cant say how many of those may have been paying tax. Those Irish that werent paying tax were providing the cheap labour for the UK economy that it needed at the time.

    Times have changed though.

  48. <Q> UK citizens can vote in elections in the ROI

    That’s neither here nor there. It was an important and distorting factor in the election of various Governments that they needed the support of large numbers of foreigners residing in cities like Liverpool and London.Without them there would have been less Labour Government and it certainly was a contributory factor to Labour Hostility to the unionist community. When the ROI left the commonwealth things should have been tightened up. Only those who took British Citizenship should have been allowed to vote.

  49. Too late at that stage Mad,

    The Irish were already a significant community in mainland UK. They were actively encouraged and in fact necessary during the 40/50s. Once people came in, they settled and layed down roots. Your hardly proposing that the UK government should have kicked them out after the ROI left the commonwealth are you ?

    Sure, quite alot moved to the UK from the 30s to the 90s. But the UK benefited to the ROIs detriment by receiving some of our best professionals, doctors, teachers, engineers… In the same way that the UK and ROI now attract nurses and doctors from third world nations.

    On the whole, the UK probably benefited from the Irish influx, but thats subjective

  50. Kloot – those who moved to the UK should have been asked to take British Citizenship. Those born in GB were already British.But Migrant workers ? They should never have been given votes.

  51. >>those who moved to the UK should have been asked to take British Citizenship.<<

    Well, the Ireland Act 1949 is what allowed Irish citizens to reside in the UK and no be treated as foreign. Its your nations law mate, nothing we can do about it!

  52. Yep, I’m not saying it’s "your" fault – it was something that the UK should have sorted out.

  53. nah Mad it was all Kloot’s fault ;o)

  54. Nah – Kloot’s the exception that proves the rule 😉
    Henry is a different kettle of fish 😉

  55. Nite folks. Theres a bottle of wine a calling me and some lovely Zimbabwe Boravu (Spelling most likely wrong)

  56. *whispers – "Mad is Zimbabwe Boravu a woman?"*

  57. I think it’s an anagram dear.

    He’s off celebrating his elevation to Honourary membership of the Unuionist community and proposal for associate membership of the Order . All we need is his head size for the Bowler!

  58. ha ha… no, ye are a little of the mark there folks.

    My house mate is from Zimbabwean and one of the local dishes is called ‘Buravu’. Its like a spicey sausage with tomatoes, onions, some curry sauce and pap. Its really nice.

  59. Does Andrew allow "Zimbabwe" and derivatives to be used on his threads ?

  60. "one of the local dishes is called ‘Buravu’"

    So I was right then ;o)

  61. It’s as well Colm isn’t around, "spicey sausage" is just asking for trouble!

  62. I resisted commenting on that and anything else !

  63. Are you in the UKUP Andrew?

  64. get him some prem-a-tan, and we have Ulsters answer to Kilroy !

    (sorry Andrew ;>)

  65. Rats and sinking Ship…

    Despite what Chris says I read in this morning’s Irish News that Number 5 SF MLA has withdrawn – Thomas O’Reilly. Philip McGuigan MLA won’t say – Number six ?

  66. Thomas O’Reilly –

    << I want to concentrate on the council elections of 2008 for the super council elections, I am fully behind the party and believe in what we are doing with reference to policing especially>>

    Bad luck Madradin

  67. LOL – he would say something like that if he knows what’s good for him McFaul! And after all he belongs to the party that has made claims such as that none of the three birdwatchers arrested in Colombia had any connection to Sinn Féin…..

    A quarter of SFs MLAs – that’s a major crisis.

  68. <<He would say something like that if he knows what’s good for him>>

    LMAO

    Really cluctching at straws there.If you have something to say come out and say it instead of craven innuendo.

  69. perhaps the sinners day trip to toome adds weight to the possible coercion mad implies,

    (read the yankie noraid guys "haha you cant touch me gerry" article in the blanket where he names and shames alleged intimadators, ‘a telling moment at toome’, i think…)

    or maybe its their nasty habit of blowing your legs off if you piss them off…………

  70. Come on Davy – are you really saying that he could survive in SF if he said anything else? Do Sinn Féin have a good track record on being honest and truthful in their statements ? Of course not.

    Remember what happened to the SF Councillor in W Belfast who criticised the IRA for bombing the Falls Baths ?

    SF is in chaos.

  71. The interesting thing is the different reaction to the dissent within both he DUP and SF.

    Paisley seems relaxed enough to let his rebels have their say, whilst Adam’s apparachniks are running around in best Corporal Jones mode shouting "Don’t panic!,Don’t panic!" or blithely pretending it doesn’t even exist.

    If SF have aspirations of joining the democratic mainstream, then the breaking of the Politburo’s stranglehold on the party is essential.

    Dissent and argument within politics>good for democracy
    Decisions posted down to the minions from a centralised dictaorship>bad for democracy

  72. Indeed Juan – I was about to find that article for McFaul.

    http://lark.phoblacht.net/MG020107.html

    Meanwhile Geraldine Dougan has contradicted the SF statement that her standing down was just for personal reasons …

    http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=79058&pt=n

    SF in chaos

  73. Paul – for all the pretence, SF is totalitarian in approach.

  74. sorry mad i didnt mean to jump the gun (so to speak) but the Sinn Fein vote – o – bots piss me off,

    If Bobby Sands had had a Cristyal ball, i bet he’d have asked for that pasty a lot earlier.

    any actual ‘mind bearing’ republican (including names like the price sisters) will find the endorsment of the British state after all that blood for Ireland Sh**te a litttle ‘hard to swallow’

  75. Does anybody think Adams and McGuinness and the rest of the occult Army Council actually intend to do what they will be promising ? Or is the row merely about some SF/IRA supporters finding it impossible go along with the leadership lie, too big a lie even for them ? or is it the humiliation they would face ?

  76. <<Are you really saying that he could survive in SF if he said anything else>>?

    On the other hand you haven’t factored in that he may be telling the truth.
    Your implication is that he stood down as a result of the policing issue – clearly disingenuous -. If that was the case surely he would leave the party as opposed to concentrating on the 2008 super council elections.

  77. <Q>If that was the case surely he would leave the party</Q>

    Not necessarily.

    5 down, one refusing to answer and SF caught telling lies about why Dougan is standing down.

  78. Madradin,

    Today on the BBC:

    "Woman dies in hospital storeroom

    A Londonderry hospital has apologised to the family of a terminally ill woman who died over Christmas in a treatment room which was also used as a store.
    Altnagelvin hospital said it was not the first time a dying patient was put into "a far from ideal environment".

    The hospital said it tries to ensure such patients have privacy, but all the single rooms were occupied at the time.

    The room in question is also used to store medical supplies and staff need regular access to it."

    Top health service alright.

  79. Both countries Health systems are a shambles. To see a top class working Health Service we have to look at Cuba where every citizen is given a free 12 month medical check up, where the handicapped and the disabled are given the best care in the world. And this is a country with many US imposed economic sanctions!!!!
    Also many medical students come from around the world to train in Cuba’s medical college including US students, does this make them communist sympathisers?

  80. >>does this make them communist sympathisers?<<

    Why take the risk CA, shoot em anyway just in case 🙂

    Messing of course. Your point about both health services is spot on.

  81. kloot and ca,

    now we cant let a rational point about the practical mutual disadvantages of both countries get in the way of some good old fashioned secterian one up manship !
    even if we have to exploite some families recent tragity to do it gosh dern it !

    and c.a., there are a lot of sources out there that claim that the cuban system is awful (including ATW, actually….) whats your authority on the subject ? are you in the profession ?

  82. Juan,
    where is the sectarianism in pointing out flaws in a health service by citing a story run today by the national broadcaster?

    There seems to be a common misperception that the health service south of the border is inferior to the one north of it.

    In some areas it is, in others it is quite superior.

  83. <Q>Top health service alright.</Q>

    Pathetic post by Garfield, but to be expected.
    Where did I say we had a "Top" health service ?

    Leas Cross – one resident a week died of neglect.

    Laying down smoke because Sinn féin is in chaos?

  84. Doesn’t look as if there is going to be an "On This Day"
    post, so let’s remember those killed by the IRA at Kingsmill 5th January 1976. RIP.

  85. Thanks for reminding us Mad. So so so so dreadful

    RIP and God bless the families.

  86. Cheers for reminding us Mad. Kingsmill, like so many other atrocities was as mindless as it was evil.

    thank god those days are behind us.

    R.I.P.

  87. <<Five down, one refusing to answer and SF caught telling lies about why Dougan is standing down.>>

    Five down eh?
    Davy Hyland; deselected at democratic transparent selection convention,- (says that he may stand as independent)
    Pat O’Rawe; deselecteted at same convention . – Silence by Ms O’Rawe sugessting that she accepts the democratic will of her party peers and continues wirh her party work
    Geraldine Dougan; – <<Membership of that party would be untenable for me as an Irish Republican>>- (In a speculative scenario) if her party endorse policing
    Thomas O’Reilly; – <<want to concentrate on the council elections of 2008 for the super council elections, I am fully behind the party and believe in what we are doing with reference to policing especially>>
    See my above post
    Phillip McGuigan ; Speculation as to reasons (if they do indeed exist and it’s not just a media mix for a lazy story)

    Five down?

    I count one

  88. You are struggling McFaul 🙂
    Almost as much as SF LOL!

  89. <<You are struggling McFaul>> 🙂
    LMAO
    Wishy washy backtracking.

  90. If all is OK how come SF lied as to why Dougan was quitting ?

    And you still haven’t explained why you claim O’Reilly would HAVE to leave the party if he was opposed to the Policing thing. And you ran away from the points about SF being serial liars. And you ran from the point about intimidation being a SF tactic. Still, at least they didn’t have him given a kicking in a pub car park as SF Dublin had done to one ex party member who asked awkward questions about drugs, eh what ?

  91. <<If all is OK how come SF lied as to why Dougan was quitting>>?
    Who said it was all OK?. You said that the Sinners had five MLA’s that quit I was only correcting your speculative scenario.
    <<And you still haven’t explained why you claim O’Reilly would HAVE to leave the party if he was opposed to the Policing thing>>
    I speculated that if his views were that strong on a (hypothetical) given scenario that his convictions would have been so so strong on speculative party policy he would have left his party. I don’t know the man and I’m assuming that you don’t know him him either so why don’t we wait untill some statement from his quarter?.
    <<And you ran away from the points about SF being serial liars. And you ran from the point about intimidation being a SF tactic. Still, at least they didn’t have him given a kicking in a pub car park as SF Dublin had done to one ex party member who asked awkward questions about drugs, eh what >>.
    Straw men, laying down smoke etc etc 😀

  92. AFTERTHOUGHT

    <<And you still haven’t explained why you claim O’Reilly would HAVE to leave the party if he was opposed to the Policing thing>>

    Madradin Ruad@2.25 am

    >>Your implication is that he stood down as a result of the policing issue – clearly disingenuous -. If that was the case surely he would leave the party as opposed to concentrating on the 2008 super council elections.>>

    Me @ 12.35pm

    Good attempt at trying to put words in my mouth.

  93. Madradin

    As I am not a Sinn Fein member, supporter or voter, I have no vested interest in defending them. However, I think your claims about then being in total disarray are based on blind optimism. It is clear that they have major difficulties – policing was always going to be the major obstacle for them. As I personally witnessed blatently sectarian behaviour by the RUC on quite a few occasions when I was growing up in NI, I can understand the reluctance of any Catholic/Nationalist to support them.

    However, with Patten being implemented, the RUC (UDR + RIR) being dumped and 50/50 recruitment ensuring that there will never again be a Protestant Police Force for a Protestant State and people, the time has come to move on.

    The SDLP position is correct in my opinion. Sinn Fein should sign up and join the policing boards. The PSNI is not perfect but it’s getting there – Catholics/ Nationalists should engage and make it a force for all of the people.

    Like I say, Sinn Fein have major problems – this is their rubicon. The challenge for them is to get their party to sign up to policing without a major split. I’m afraid that the "examples" you provide don’t show a potential split that could do any major long term damage to them. If they do sign up to policing, it will increase their appeal in the RoI.

    There seems to be an attempt by Unionists to gloss over the problems faced by the DUP which are at least as great as those faced by Sinn Fein. It is clear to see that Morrow, McCrea (that "bastion" of law and order), Campbell, Dodds and Allister are totally at odds with Paisley, Robinson, Donaldson and Wilson.

    The DUP are doing a better job of papering over the cracks than Sinn Fein. However, while Sinn Fein has problems to solve, Unionism is also in serious danger of becoming even more fragmented than it already is.

  94. No attempt at putting words in your mouth – you wrote
    that
    <Q>If that was the case surely he would leave the party as opposed to concentrating on the 2008 super council elections</Q>

    Why would he have to leave the party?

    Plenty of SF members disagree with aspects of Policy and remain in the party. Chris Gaskin has blogged about a couple of things where he disagrees with party Policy on Balrog.

    Going form MLA to councillor is one hell of a demotion.

  95. Billy – it is SF who have to act. They have to satisfy the DUP, betray what they see as the sacred legacy of Bobby Sands etc etc. If it was the other way round and the DUP had to jump first and be seen to be bowing down to Adams and McGuinness I’d reckon you are right – the DUP would be in Chaos.

    My reading of this is that it’s a game of political chicken, with the ones who break away losing. SF’s problem is that the DUP win by default because it is accepted by Blair, Ahern and the USA that SF must bend the knee. So SF have a problem. If they accept policing they lose huge amounts of ground by as you point out showing that the SDLP were right all along. If they don’t accept policing then THEY carry the can. They have been wriggling for a while, delaying, hoping the DUP would implode or make a major error. That has failed. They have tried to position themselves with the "sure there’s no point in us doing anything because the DUP still wouldn’t etc etc" – McGuinness is still trying that one at the moment – and nobody has accepted it.
    They have tried to give the impression that all sorts of dirty deals have been done under the counter – such as deals on the OTRs etc – hoping to provoke the DUP into walking away so that if and when this falls to bits it won’t be SF getting the blame .

    But all the DUP have to do is keep asking SF to do what has been ordered. Dissent within the ranks ?
    Come on, the "we cannot do that as it would split us " ploy has been used for years by SF to great effect. So Paisley can meet any extra pressure from Blair with
    " My hands are tied , if I move any further the party will fall to bits and the instability will destroy everything ".

    SF are on the hook.

  96. MR

    Sinn Fein will endorse policing at the Ard Fheis and that will cause the DUP to split between those would share power and those who would not. That is the natural division in unionism and it’s about time we saw its dimensions. I believe a clear majority will opt to share power. The question is can Paisley lead. We’ll see.

    On the republican side I don’t believe there will be significant electoral fallout from the decision to endorse policing. But I would welcome dissident candidates. I think they would be stuffed and they would know where they stand then.

  97. <Q>Sinn Fein will endorse policing at the Ard Fheis and that will cause the DUP to split between those would share power and those who would not.</Q>

    wishful thinking Henry. SF have not only to endorse but have to be seen to be endorsing with DEEDS. That will tear them apart.

    As pointed out, SF "endorsed" the Mitchell principles – and failed to be seen to live upto them – including sending round a convicted terrorist to beat up an opponent. People have finally woken up to the realisation that SF will say anything – doing is a different matter.

  98. MR

    I’m sure the irony of unionists insisting on good works is not lost on you. But the dealings of individuals with the police are a matter for themselves and are confidential.

    There are not political tests for that nor can their be. The DUP can chicken out if they like but it will be a major blunder if they do.

  99. <Q>But the dealings of individuals with the police are a matter for themselves and are confidential.</Q>

    Remind us of what happened after the McCartney Murder Henry …. the family intimidated out of their homes for dealing with the authorities and the riot in the markets with a senior SF member present to make sure police couldn’t get evidence …..

    Even recently we had the telling comments by a SF politician giving "permission" for that man who suffered a racist attack in a Nationalist area to deal with the police.

    Go back a few years and see how SF and the IRA dealt with people suspected of having had dealings with the police – Bernard Taggart ring any bells ? Abducted from school and murdered by your heroes Henry.

    <Q>There are not political tests for that nor can their be. </Q>

    There most certainly are – for a start McGuinness should be summoned back to Saville and asked to supply the information he refused – if and when SF recognise the police and justice system then he will not be able to refuse to co-operate, hiding behind a spurious "code of honour".