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SO WHAT DOES THE “P” IN PSNI STAND FOR?

By ATWadmin On January 11th, 2007

It seems that the PSNI – the neutered politically correct police "service" which replaced the gallant RUC, may actually be on it’s way to becoming the POLISH SERVICE for NORTHERN IRELAND. It’s reported that 12% of new applicants are Polish, and since they will be virtually certain to be of Roman Catholic designation, that means they have a much better chance of getting a job, since applicants who are Protestant/other faiths are lawfully discriminated against here. And there was me thinking that the P stood for ..AHEM….Provisional! I think it’s interesting that Poles are moving in such large numbers into the Police. I thought that these Eastern European immigrants were primarily here to do the jobs we don’t want to? Is law enforcement now one of these?

136 Responses to “SO WHAT DOES THE “P” IN PSNI STAND FOR?”

  1. Well David – we have an outstanding example of a Polish immigrant who gave her life in service last year in the English police forces. It might not be too bad.

    It could also help bolster the 50:50 issue if the wee repubs still feel too sensitive about legal law enforcement…..

    Every cloud has a silver lining.

  2. Yes she did. You can also read about a (London) City policeman – great guy, Polish parentage. And of course Im also very thankful my Polish grandmother settling here – though ive no plans to be a police officer. Frankly who would want to be a police officer? They really do come here and fill the crummy stuff we dont want to do. Theyre a great bunch. Hardworking people. Good on em.

  3. Joc/Alison,

    Yes, it’s not the Poles I have the issue with, it’s more to do with the fact that our society appears to lack the will to police itself and requires people from Poland, and elsewhere to do it. There’s something inherently worrying about our own lack of interest in upholding our own laws.

  4. Would it not be great if the entire PSNI could not be staffed by Poles, or by Albanians or Chinese. Give the province some neutral policing for a change.

  5. David

    The PSNI also stated that there are no Polish officers at present. But I agree the 50 / 50 recruitment thing should be dropped.

  6. Peter,

    Yes, it should be the BEST most able candidates. Period.

  7. It should be the most able candidates selected to do the job. the 50:50 rule is a necessary temporary evil to help remove the jackboot of the Orangeman from society in the North. This should apply not only to the police service but all other public bodies where the Orangeman lurks in the shadows.

  8. Cheers Dan – your every word sheds light. LOL!

    Mind, your first sentence was good but then it all went downhill, didn’t it? Thinking too hard may not be good for you.

  9. Not thinking in the warped 17th century mindset of the Orangeman is probably my only crime. The rest of my point still stands. There is no place for the perverted influence of the Orangeman in any civilised society.

  10. Dan,

    You’re Orangist, aren’t you? Do you dream of Robert Saulter? I bet, you do.

    The OO is a fine body and who knows, maybe I might join them as their 17th Century mentality is an improvement on the stone age mentality you exhibit!

    LOL.

  11. As he prepared to turn the corner Dan could see a flickering glowing light that appeared to get brighter as it got nearer… the light illuminated the murky shadows of the night, aprehensively he continued to approach the corner and then in full view he saw the full terrifying glow …..AAAGh his worst nightmare came true it really was the BIG BAD ORANGEMAN lurking in the shadows!

  12. DV,

    You’re a good lad, however…

    My mentality is one of the 21st century. A modern European democracy in which rabble organisations such as the OO are confined to having their meeting late at night in public toilets with the other perverts.

    Silly men in bowler hats who carry umbrellas (even when its not raining) belong in the cartoon Mr Ben not the roads of this lovely island.

    There was once a time when the OO were simply good old fashined bigots but still maintained a form of public respectability.
    These days however it is more likely to be populated by obese men (who’ve never seen inside a church) with LVF tattoos, wearing Rangers tops, pissed out of their heads and probably wearing their sashes backwards. That’s when they aren’t attacking their own police force with ceremonial swords or showing their loyalty to the Queen by petrol bombing and shooting her armed forces.

    What a rabble. At least the Poles can conduct themselves with some decency.

  13. ‘There’s something inherently worrying about our own lack of interest in upholding our own laws’

    No arguing with that David.

  14. Colm,

    If you thought "The Orangeman" was bad (and all decent law-abiding people do), just wait till the sequel "Orangeman II: The (11th) Night of the Living Orangeman" hits the silver screen. Say his name three times..

  15. Dantheman,

    Neanderthal, but funny!

    I love that song, "The Sash My Father Wore Backwards" it always brings a tear to the eye.

  16. You’ll be able to tell the Poles apart from the local Irish members of the PSNI during the marching season. They’ll be the ones wetting themselves laughing at this ridiculous pantomime.

    That song is actually a version of an old Irish song called something along the lines of "The Sligo Milkmaid". This was the first of many a stealing of a good Irish melody by the dastardly Orangeman. Even the loyalists stole the field of Athenry and the Men behind the wire.
    The unimaginative and sick mind of the Orangeman shines through yet again. What other part of the civilised world would tolerate such perversion on its streets. Gimps the lot of them.

    Lets hope the Poles reopen Austwitch and throw them all in.

  17. Dantheman,

    That is a disgraceful last line. Is that what passes for wit amongst Republicans????

  18. Dan The Man

    That is a sick comment. You let yourself down.

  19. Maybe the P stands for Provo.

  20. No worse that your colleague McCann has stated on many an occassion, and you have never batted an eyelid my man.

  21. I leave Dan the Man’s comment for all to see – the depraved voice of a section of Irish Nationalism.

    Thankfully, there are many more decent people around of an Irish Nationalist mindset who do NOT wish to see 100,000 Northern Irish people "in Austwhitch" (Dan’s typo, btw) and can debate in a friendly and open manner.

  22. Armaghlite,

    Apologies for any perceived offense. Neither my belief or hope (nor is it even feasible), just pointing out the hypocrisy of the noble and moral owner of this site.

  23. I’m getting the feeling that Dan has a mighty big tongue in his cheek.

  24. As a republican I will agree with DV about it being distasteful and point out that last posting most certainly does NOT pass as wit amongst us.

    Dan was doing so well until then, he was right to point out the bigotry inherent in Orangism, only to fall down at the last by letting slip some of his own.

  25. I’m the owner of the site, so let me open this up; who agrees with Dan?

  26. Well I was hoping that Dan’s ridiculous over the top commets were Tongue in cheek, but with the seriousness of his last comment now I am not so sure.

  27. David,

    This is by nature a site designed for hard hitting statements. You wouldn’t need to start crying now at what I said, even though as I states it aint ever going to happen (nor do I wish it to).

    Your colleague McCann (who posts on this site with your blessing) lowers the bar of conversation on a daily basis. So don’t be pointing the finger at me, just because the vitriol is pointed at God’s chosen people.

  28. yuck.

  29. Never stoop to McCann’s level, best to leave him to it and let people make up their own minds about him when they read his posts.

    It is a shame Dan – You had been doing well, and I could see your point. I even laughed at some of your comments up to that point.

    Whatever disagreements we might have on this Island, I would never EVER like to see fellow Irishmen, regardless of outlook or Religion subject to the evil that happened in that place.

  30. Will the Poles who apply to the PSNI be subject to the ‘religious affiliation’ test, or will they be exempt from that?

    I recall talk that any Garda who transfer to the PSNI will not have their relgious affiliation included in the figures (and given, according to Lord Laird, there’s only 13 Prods in the Garda, its pretty safe to assume their relgious background)

  31. Colm,

    The point was not my belief. Just bringing the debate here onto a level playing field. As you well know you could find many examples of Kill all Palestinians or Kill All Republicans. Repudiation for these equally abhorrent comments is sadly lacking.

    I apologise for the need to make such a comment, but yet again the blind spot is there for all to see. Anyone who seriously believes tat I mean this after what I have just posetd after my clarifications is the one with the problem.

    Its not very often you see the "Kill all Huns" line of thinking. Kill all Arabs or Kill All Taigs is a lot more common.

  32. Armaghlite,

    I agree with you, its a bad way to do it. But some need to see the mirror image of their own vile points of view.

  33. To be fair, On July 12th McCann posted that all Irish Nationlists should be wiped out and I do not believe he was challenged for that. Perhaps you know different David ??

  34. Dan – try the work test. I can open and read Andrews posts quite easily – they are often angry and hard hitting but i never ever have to close ATW down quickly for fear of what might be read or seen over my shoulder. With your comment i just did and im reluctant to come back to this. Thing is your argument about the marchers was funny. But making a statement like that is awful and getting the thread to go all personal is pointless.

  35. Ok Dan, fair enough but accepting that the Auschwitz comment wasn’t meant literally I do still think the way you describe Orangemen is over the top too.

    I accept also your point that a lot of people here are far more tolerant of abusive language coming from a Right wing point of view than when such words are uttered by ‘lefties’ ‘liberals’ or ‘commie scum’ !

  36. O Boy Danny. I agree that McCann is capable of outrageous comments and sadly unchallenged by some who should challenge him at those times (if they want to be consistent), but the mispelling of the concentration camp was not the only error you made in that regard. It was "perceived" as offenseive, it was offensive and way over the line. And it is offensive to the memory of those who actually suffered at that camp to fling its name around so recklessly.
    Take a breath and ease up.

  37. Alison,

    McCann’s posts are more than "angry and hard hitting" – he has referred to Irish people as untermenschen – he constantly referers to us as soap dodgers, scum, unwashed etc.
    He lashed out on a post on July 12th – saying the most vile and and disgusting things about Irish people, he gloated that Bloody Sunday victims were now "pushing up the daisies" etc and he has never been challenged or penalised that I can see.

    But I again reiterate – best not to stoop to McCann’s level.

    I don’t think Dan meant any real offence given his later comments.

  38. Alison

    Some of Andrew’s comments would qualify for the ‘look over the shoulder ‘ test, here’s one.

    .. "’open the floodgates for every hick, fat diego, darkie, Afro, Muzza, honky and chink that wants to settle here’

  39. "Dan – try the work test. I can open and read Andrews posts quite easily – they are often angry and hard hitting but i never ever have to close ATW down quickly for fear of what might be read or seen over my shoulder."

    Alison, are you saying that Mr McCann’s frequent references to "pondlife", "soap-dodgers" and "excrement", not to mention the obvious conclusion that comes from such de-humanising characatures i.e. his call for Irish nationalists to be wiped out – would not raise an eyebrow where you work?

  40. Thats nonsense Colm.

  41. Reg – is any of that calling for someone to be sent to their deaths in gas chambers?

  42. Alison,

    It is not nonsense at all. We need consistency. Many of McCann’s comments are vile and would shame anyone if they were observed reading them in a respectable workplace – don’t you agree?

  43. Reg: Alison is a receptionist for the DUP.

  44. Please – i’ll stand corrected if someone points out where that has ever been stated? Has he ever asked for that? Has he requested that us Poles condemn people to die in death camps or anyone else for that matter? People use ‘hyperbole’ all the time Colm – you said so yourself regards Adrian! But please i would like to know where Andrew who isnt that keen on eastern euros (and my family would in part constitute this but i can stomach what he says) has asked for anything similar? This hyppocrisy is starting to really stink guys.

  45. "Reg – is any of that calling for someone to be sent to their deaths in gas chambers?"

    Well, I would consider a call to "wipe out" a large number of people to be pretty much the same thing. Wouldn’t you?

    The only differences are:

    a) Dantheman was more specific as to the method.

    b) He didn’t mean it. I would wager that McCann did.

  46. Colm,

    I feel bad in having to state it. I am well aware that the Holocaust was one of the darkest periods in humanity, as millions perished under Hitlers despotic regime. Perhaps a bit overstated in relation to my description of the Orangeman.

    However I did note how people were so VERY VERY quick to round on the last comment of one particular post. Very quick indeed. Yet the wouldnt bat an eyelid at similar comments in the other direction. Maybe they are not complicit but just sanitised after reading them for so long. A bit of shock therapy, which all should know was not my genuine wish.

    DV,

    "I leave Dan the Man’s comment for all to see – the depraved voice of a section of Irish Nationalism."

    Nope

    You are very quiet there my man. You were correct to take issue with that last statement on that post.
    However, and its a big HOWEVER, you still havent shared with the group why McCanns vile rants should pass with no comment from yourself. What the moral basis for future posts, so I’ll know the score.

    What I am trying to say is that you own the site. So if a poster such as myself reads comments calling for all Irish nationalists to be killed, would he not be entitled to think that the bar is the same for unionists?

    Alison,
    Apologies for any offence, but you must also be blind to other peoples past contributions to this site. Lets hope that in future DV will be quicker to monitor all vile contributions to the site.

  47. Alison,

    Check out July 12th posts. McCann called for all Irish "seperatist Scum" to be wiped out. It’s the same thing as Dan said except he didn’t mention a death camp or how we should be wiped out.
    He has constantly failed the "work Test"

    Would you be ok with your colleagues seeing you reading all of McCann’s posts?

    Excrement, Scum, Pondlife etc??

    He even referred to ni**ers – which rightly caused some controversy I recall.

    Did that pass your work test or was it OK because it was McCann ??

  48. Dan – "Is someone posting under Mahons’ name? I’ve never seen such unprovoked vitriol from his keyboard". Provoked i understand by Adrian preferring Hitler to the US and so on and so forth. Thats how it is sometimes when you feel strongly about stuff. Ive had some vile stuff directed at me aswell. i accept people can defer to vitriol but not that they suggest they arent ever guilty of it themselves or that one side trumps the other. When it gets personal or directly suggests people should be sent to their deaths i think thats overstepping the mark. I think as with everything in these situations everyone can get carried away.

  49. No I accept that that post did not Armaghlite.

  50. Alison

    I was just pointing out comments by Andrew that I wouldn’t want to be seen reading by people looking over my shoulder. You may be perfectly happy about being seen reading remarks about ‘darkies afros and chinks… but that’s a matter of personal opinion. I wasn’t comparing them in gravity to commets about ‘re-opeming Auscwitz.

  51. Alison – I hope you realize the DUP comment was a joke about a workplace in which McCann’s comments could be tolerated, and not vitroil directed against you in any way. Jeeze, pretty soon only Colm with talk to me.

  52. mahons

    Well in that case at least you will still be engaging with the most brilliant, intelligent and truthful commenter here 😉

  53. Not to mention modest !!

  54. That’s true, I’m far too shy to even begin to mention my physical qualities 🙂

  55. It was wrong to use the work scenario as that isnt right and fair enough above.

  56. Mahons – its ok. i didnt get it. I objected to only being a receptionist but i suppose thats ok since i wouldnt like to work any more closely to Paisley quite frankly.

  57. Dan was rightly heaped with condemnation and NO_ONE has defended his comment and the last few frivilous comments are nothing to do with that. Call it bias, hypocrisy, or to be polite just inconsistency , but we are all guilty to an extent of being more outraged by the political direction of a comment than it’s actual content.

  58. Heaped with condemnation?! LOL! Colm you started with a joke about it and when you thought better of it re his remarks went straight into some mixed up notion about the right being worse than the left and stated it ‘over the top’. This was my point earlier re starting to smack of hypocrisy. I was happy to admit my work thing was silly in that it doesnt work. Now if youll please admit you give some a harder time than others, thanks 😉

  59. Thats a fair point colm – we should all condemn wrong when we see it – even when that wrong comes from our own ‘side’.

    I wonder does DV agree????

    – I would love to know what DV thought when Andrew used the term "Ni**er".

  60. Alison – That is a relief. I think to my shame I somehow managed to offend Aileen a few weeks back and was afraid I was losing friends at a faster rate than Monica at a Gun Control Meeting.

    Colm – Brillant, intelligent, truthful AND good looking? No wonder we find so much common ground.

  61. Alison

    I never made a joke at all about his Auschwitz comment. If you are referring to my reference to him having to be ‘tongue in cheek’that was only because I simply couldn’t believe he was being serious . I also never said the Right was worse than the Left, only that here on ATW – which would generally be percieved as a Right wing blog , there is more tolerance of abusive comments with a Right wing slant, and I am sure exactly the same is true on left wing sites. I don’t share the silly black and white nonsense that all Righties are bad and all lefties are good or vice versa.

    Yes I do give some people a harder time than others. we ALL do, we are not robots and we aren’t all equally offended to the same degree by the same things. We all have our different levels of outrage and as human beings we are all hypocrites.

  62. Mahons

    Now if you have offended the fragrant Aileen , then I really will refuse to talk to you….. although I might be prepared to allow you to converse with my double.. he looks like Brad Pitt and has an i.q of 170 !…… and like me he’s very very modest 🙂

  63. Colm: If I offended the fragrnat Aileen I would be hard pressed to talk to myself. I would have to refer people to my double who looks like William Pitt and can just about spell IQ.

  64. David – as we are on policing – interesting timing, the announcement that The Assets Recovery Agency is to go.

  65. Mad,

    Do you think this was some sort of concession to the shinners?

  66. Dan’s comment re Auschwitz was disgraceful and he was rightly condemned for it. However, he has a point in that few hackles are raised when McCann lets rip in his anti-Irish remarks. When I first began reading ATW I was convinced Andrew was a student having a laugh and posting the most outrageous stuff he could think of but now I realise he is probably an unpleasant, dysfunctional individual who writes very well and can be quite entertaining if you don’t take him too seriously. David, you hold staunch views and are usually fair and balanced (a job on Fox News awaits) but your silence on some of A McCann’s personalised rantings do neither you nor ATW any credit.

  67. Armaghlite – concession ? It comes across as a blatent sop to their criminality.

  68. Hadn’t thought of it like that Mad but I can see your thinking. It’s very wrong if this is the case IMO.

    I suppose the longer this thing is dragged on the more concessions are given to both the DUP and Sinn Fein.
    Hopefully the Shinners will soon back policing and the Doc soon after backs powersharing. Hard liners on both sides need to be faced down. I get the feeling that this is the ultimate endgame.

  69. And Rory there are equally appauling remarks made by those on the left in the comments section. Many of those dysfunctional and unpleasant and certainly studenty. Someone once posted a vile remark regards Davids father or David when he was ill i seem to recall. It cuts both ways.

  70. I wont contribute to the Dan debate, ive missed the debate completely as i was at a meeting. Suffice to say others have done the condemnation for me.

    Though, I must admit that I do raise an eyebrow at some of the stuff that gets past the filter. But, being involved in moderation on a music board I visit, from experience it can be hard to catch and follow all comment. Im not quite convinced that this is the case here. But anyway.

    >>It comes across as a blatant sop to their criminality.<<

    I thought it was just a case of that agency being merged with a UK wide agency ?

    It seems that the ARA had begun to do some pretty decent work all the same. A shame to see the resources, intelligence, ongoing legal actions to go to waste over a restructuring issue.

  71. Rory – Andrew has admitted that the OTT nature of some of his comments are to hold a mirror up to the unpleasant face of republicanism. Make people from t’other side consider their own comments.

    Now – that cannot be said about Paul Butler – can it?
    Remember his comments about Long Kesh being Britain’s Auscwicz?

    Or how about the riff-raff on both sides chanting or writing SS-RUC on walls ?

    I’ll take comments about Andrew and his style a bit more seriously when republicans and their groupies clean up their act.

  72. >>Andrew has admitted that the OTT nature of some of his comments are to hold a mirror up to the unpleasant face of republicanism.<<

    The problem is though mad, that some of the comments are not narrowly focused enough. If someone wants to target republican scum then make them the target of the verbal attack, otherwise the comments will be felt by people outside the catchment area and will provoke an agitated response, e.g. wide of the mark comments about Irish people, or throwing moderate nationalists in with militant republicans. When we then go do defend ourselves we get labeled as IRA supporters, when were far from the mark

  73. ‘Would it not be great if the entire PSNI could not be staffed by Poles, or by Albanians or Chinese. Give the province some neutral policing for a change’

    Well David, seeing as yourself and your lad won’t be heading to iraq to fight the war you support, perhaps a good job for your lad?
    Imean surely he wants to do as his ould man says?

  74. Kloot – I’ll admit that it must seem a little strange to a newbie 🙂

    But from what I can see it’s regulars/repeat visitors who seem to have problems dealing with the point he is making. They should think about their own posturings.

    Those who chant "Brits Out" aren’t really that much different to those who chanted "Juden Raus".

  75. Mad,

    That Andrew does not hols a mirror up to anything – he insults vast groups of people.

    While I can also condemn any Nationalist that insults people including those who chant SS RUC etc – I would expect consistency from any decent Unioinist towards McCann’s vile posts.

    Did you support him when he said it was ok to use the term ni**er ????

    (He included the g’s)

    Did you support him in that Mad?

  76. Depends on context Armaghlite.

  77. "Those who chant "Brits Out" aren’t really that much different to those who chanted "Juden Raus".

    And those who said Nationalists should be sent south are also not that different from those who chanted "Juden Raus"

  78. Here is a critique of a catholic view of the majority population in Scotland.
    Putting prods in camps might well be of joy to some…
    Rome always says that we (heretics) are to be tolerated as long as they see fit and catholics do not have to keep their word with heretics if it suits the church.
    Some of the folk on this blog have displayed these aspirations.

    A Romanist Attack On The Protestants Of Scotland

    ——————————————————————————–
    Composer James MacMillan, in a lecture to the Edinburgh Festival on Scottish Catholicism, has launched a venomous attack against the Protestants of the land of John Knox.
    Professor Arthur Noble

    In a concerted attempt to widen its field of assault, the Church of Rome and its agents are now intent on stirring up strife in Scotland. Composer James MacMillan, in a lecture to the Edinburgh Festival on Scottish Catholicism, has launched a venomous attack against the Protestants of the land of John Knox. [See, inter alia: "The bigotry that shames Scotland", The Independent, The Tuesday Review, August 10, 1999, p. 4.]

    Accusing the Scots of "sour anti-Catholicism" and "religious bigotry", MacMillan employs all the familiar tactics and allegations common to the Romanist conspiracy against the Protestants and Unionists of Northern Ireland, where, he claims, only the bombs and bullets are seen as making the difference – conveniently forgetting that the bombs and bullets were instigated in Ulster by his own Church of Rome and the Pope’s specially blessed crucifixes which he sent to the IRA hungerstrikers.

    The strategy begins with inventing discrimination ("Catholics are not really full citizens"). Then you need to allege that it is "endemic" ("in the workplace, in the professions, in academia, in the media, in politics and in sport"). Add a persecution complex and intensify it to the point where you must speak in "hushed voices" when dining in public to avoid divulging your religion, lest you "suffer the consequences" of a "backlash". Next, you must blame the whole situation on Protestant "sectarianism" and the "extreme nature of our anti-Catholic past". Then you attack the country’s constitution for its "Protestant Presbyterianism"; and finally, you recommend that it be changed to reflect the "genuinely pluralistic democracy" and "enriching multicultural pluralism" with which we should "move together into the next millennium".

    MacMillan advocates a return to pre-Reformation times in Scotland. Is he ignorant of history, or, like his Church, attempting to cover it up? Is he suggesting a revival of the treachery of the Romanist Mary Queen of Scots (who had her husband murdered), or of the burning of Patrick Hamilton and the Reformation martyrs, so that the system of the Dark Ages can be restored?

    Carefully avoiding a description of those times, MacMillan overlooks the persecution of the Protestant martyrs by the Church of Rome which hunted and pursued them like wild beasts and forced them to hide in dens and caves – destitute, tormented and afflicted – only to be bludgeoned or burned to death because they refused to bow the knee to Popery. He makes no reference to George Wishart, the fire of whose martyrdom cast its light all over Scotland and prepared the way for Scottish liberty. He bypasses the story of Wishart’s much-loved friend John Knox, who lopped off the branches of the apostate Church of Rome, struck at its very roots, and dragged Scotland from gloom and superstition into the enlightenment of the Reformation.

    Confined for two years on a Papist French galley, Knox and his fellow-prisoners resisted every means deployed against them to force them to renounce their Protestant faith. Refusing to kiss a large image of the Virgin, he threw it into the sea and said: "Let our lady save herself; she is light enough; let her learn to swim!" No wonder that Mary Queen of Scots (whom he faithfully admonished) declared that she feared Knox’s prayers more than a regiment of soldiers!

    These are no doubt fine examples of what we might expect from MacMillan’s so-called "enriching multicultural pluralism", which expresses itself in Northern Ireland through ethnic cleansing of Protestants and intrigue to stop them from walking home from church on the Queen’s Highway. In Vatican terminology, the term really means its exact opposite – Papal tyranny.

    Is it not also revealing that, having preached non-sectarianism, MacMillan then attacks the press for championing a non-sectarian system of education which would do away with church schools? He himself, of course, and his views, are a typical product of those schools. Their existence ensures that the Church of Rome can continue to exercise her sectarianism, a right which she claims through her so-called ‘infalliblity’. Throughout her history she has used her sectarian education system to brainwash her adherents into accepting her boasted ‘infallible’ authority. She has proclaimed in her schools the lawfulness of persecution – a proclamation never repealed to this day, when it is only through lack of power, not of will, that she cannot openly perform the atrocities of the past.

    Meanwhile, whither Scotland – a return to the mediaevalism of Mary Queen of Scots, or a revival of the Biblical enlightenment of John Knox?

  79. >>Those who chant "Brits Out" aren’t really that much different to those who chanted "Juden Raus".<<

    There is an equivalence there Mad, a lack of tolerance. Intolerance doesnt necessarily follow on to inflicting terror on people. I suspect that those who shouted "Juden Raus" would stop short of putting the gun to a jewish persons head or turning the gas taps on…

    >>But from what I can see it’s regulars/repeat visitors who seem to have problems dealing with the point he is making. They should think about their own posturings.<<

    Again, If the points were more focused and included less people in the catchment area then maybe.

  80. Thats a cop out Mad – he called peter Hain a White Ni**er. But when challenged he went on to say that it was "anodyne" (I think thats how you spell it…) to use the word Ni**er generally.

    I would try to be consistent in what I condemn – I condemned a fellow Nationalist earlier in this thread because what he said was wrong. I would expect the same consistency from Unionists.

  81. Alison

    Ignorance is ignorance, right, left or centre has nothing to do with it. You’re always going to get some idiots posting crap…that’s why a site is moderated. However, a writer on a blog has to conform to a higher standard and not resort to the sort of drivel seen on graffiti covered walls. People who post insulting stuff about David’s dad are just scum and what religion, political persuasion, etc they have is of no relevance.

    MR

    I’m no fan of Sinn Fein/IRA and if his comments were only directed at them I would be a lot more sympathetic for the principle though not the language used. He uses his racist jibes and remarks at ALL Irish people. He says he hates the Irish people (me included, presumably) for “historical reasons”. Is that the reasoning of an intelligent human being? The latest opinion poll here (in ROI) places SF at 8% and I’d venture only a fraction of that is due to it’s NI policy. Most decent Irish people want no truck with SF or their associates and people like Andrew do the unionist viewpoint a great disservice.

  82. Yes, it’s a cop out – I don’t know the instance to which you refer, so I had to give a generic answer – depends on Context. There are times when the word can be used, there are times when it should not.

  83. Madradin

    I have no time at all for Dan’s comments (tongue in cheek in or otherwise). Apart from the obvious lack of morality, they simply lower the level of debate which is normally quite high on ATW (apart from McCann).

    However, please do not insult my intelligence by defending McCann’s views on Irish Catholics/Republicans.

    I am an Irish Republican born and raised in Belfast. Neither I nor my family have ever supported or voted for Sinn Fein. We are all totally opposed to violence in any way.

    The last time I looked, democracy gives us ALL the right to free thought and free speech. Therefore, anyone has the right in NI (or the UK) to be a Republican. I have more right to have a say in the future of NI than McCann with his pathetic paternal grandfather argument.

    However, McCann thinks that all Republicans are pond life, should be wiped out, his reference to ni**ers etc, etc.

    He doesn’t say these things to "hold a mirror up" to anything, he hates anything "Oirish" and means what he says.

    Like most posters on this site, I try to maintain a level of consistency. I totally condemn the comments by Dan but I’m afraid that anyone who also condemns Dan’s but doesn’t think there is anything wrong with McCann’s is a hypocrite.

    You either condemn this type of "comment" or you don’t, changing your view depending on the recipient of the comment is pure hypocrisy.

    Are you saying that you find Dan’s comment to be in extremely bad taste per se or merely objecting to the fact that it is aimed at a group of people who you support?

    If so, would you then find the comment acceptable if it had come from McCann and was aimed at "Oirish" people?

  84. Mad: I know you can be quite reasonable (I won’t tell) and I get the feeling the pass given to Andrew on this site does not rise to the level of agreement with what he is saying all the time but only with his right to say it. Unfortunately, this often comes across to some in the line of fire as condoning it. It doesn’t do any good to all of our respective positions to allow those who agree with us to go unchecked if they step overboard?

  85. MR

    Yes, there are riff-raff on both sides writing stuff on walls and chanting obnoxious slogans at football matches. Andrew is a writer on a political blog owned by a respected political commentator. As such, I would expect a higher standard from him.

  86. Mahons – I’m a guest here – I genuinely don’t think it’s my place to tell David or Andrew how they should run this blog. We are all free to vote with out feet.

    I do think Andrew enjoys winding people up and in the past, before I realised what he was doing I’ve commented on things he wrote that were outrageous.
    I agree with what I think you are saying about freedom of speech.

    Billy – I don’t see a lot of difference in your attitude towards Andrew and his attitude towards you – and I think he’s probably enjoying your reaction.

  87. Rory – Paul Butler is a senior Politician in a party that is demanding a seat in Government and a say in the running of the Policing and Justice systems.
    Makes you think that he could come out with his comments about Auscwicz and not be censured by his party.

  88. Mad – I figured it was something like that which is fair enough. While we are all guests here, and I don’t dream of telling them how to run the blog, I guess I am a little more inclined to ask folks to not let others get away with particularly outrageous statements (must be my pushy American nature. God damn colonists).

  89. "We are all free to vote with out feet"

    Mad – How do we vote without feet??? 🙂

    Personally, sometimes perhaps he is winding people up but I think that is to give him too much credit. He is very consistent in Insulting Irish people – Oirish people – the great unwashed, soap dodgers etc.

    Mad – I know you might disagree with me But I believe that you as a British Protestant have as much right to Ireland as I do. Anyone born on this Island has a right to it. Following from that You are Irish (In no way denying that you are also British) so when McCann insluts Irish people generally he is also insulting the One million Protestants in the Northern part of Ireland.

    Anyway. There are bigots on both sides. I knew many people growing up who chanted hate slogans about Unionists when they had never met any. Pure bloody ignorance and inexplicable hatred.

    Hatred of an entire people should be challenged IMO – regardless of the ‘side’.

  90. MR

    I’ve never heard of Paul Butler but if he made the remarks you say then of course his party (presumably SF) should censure him though I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve not been to Auscitzh but have been to Matthausen and any comparisons to these death camps with prisons, political or otherwise where people died on hunger strike not gas chambers, are perverse. However, isn’t this “whataboutery”. What about the points I made about higher standards, etc.?

  91. Madradin – i agree with you at 8.22pm. pretty good response.

  92. <Q>However, isn’t this “whataboutery”. </Q>

    To some extent – see below

    <Q>What about the points I made about higher standards, etc.?<Q>

    That was why I mentioned Paul Butler – Andrew’s "Mr Angry" style of blogging isn’t that outrageous when we look at comments and behaviour of mainstream politicians here.

    I think the site works on several levels. It does have serious debate, it also has some less serious material and I suspect I’m not alone in enjoying the diversity of the place and that some of the visitors are here to enjoy Andrew throwing a wobbly about Bigoted Brian or some such treat.

    I also think it’s unavoidable that at times he’ll get things wrong, go too far or have something come out looking worse than it was intended. That’s the nice thing about reading blogs though – you can choose which posts to take seriously and which ones merit a response.

    Life’s too short. There’s plenty of stuff on Balrog that I could allow to wind me up – but some of it is tongue in cheek, some is by idiots and some is worth considering.

  93. MR

    As I live on the opposite end of the island I’ll bow to your knowledge of the mainstream politicans in NI. On RTE and Newstalk most of them (on both sides) sound pretty reasonable to me and not at all angry. On Monday Ian Paisley Jr was on Q&A (a panel discussion) here, made his points in a courteous way and came across very well, Jeffrey Donaldson is almost on a retainer from RTE he’s on so often…a long way from a few years ago when Paisley Snr banned RTE from the DUP election bus. What I’m trying to say is that times have changed and unionist politicans no longer regard ROI as the “great Satan” and realise that they can influence opinion down here so when people like Andrew McCann vents his spleen he doesn’t do himself or the unionist position any favours.

    You’re quite capable of winding people up…you’re very good at it, too:)….but you put a smiley at the end of whatever tongue-in-cheek comment you make. There’s nothing to indicate to me that anything Andrew writes is tongue-in-cheek. It’s a pity because he can make very good points, writes very well but if he is trying to be controversial it doesn’t work because what stands out is the language and not the argument. I was always taught that if you stoop to using insults then you’ve lost the argument.

    Yes, I enjoy ATW. Living where I am I have zero contact with any unionists or, for that matter, republicans. Most of the people I know are too busy living their lives to worry about NI and usually their reaction when the subject is brought up is something akin to “a plague on both their houses”.

  94. Hi All,

    Just catching up on this lengthy thread.

    Frankly, I found a lot of great points but from all angles, and since I’m not one to hold grudges maybe Dan can make points without the Holocaust connections.

  95. MR

    I’m lovin’ it! To be hated by liberals/republicans must mean I am doing something right.

    And as for those who can’t stomach my terminology when describing republicans, I’ll respond by saying these are people who vote for, excuse, support those who killed soldiers in this country and hundreds of my fellow British people.

    So if you don’t like the way I feel about such people, frankly I don’t give a s**t.

  96. Andy Pandy is a care worker who wipes arses. Please understand his frustration when even those he despises, muslims, ni##ers, micks, etc. do better in life than he does, and always keep in mind, he’ll be wiping a muslim arse one day.
    I am usually banned by now- when I ask DV why he and his son are not fighting in Iraq.

  97. Andrew: You are mellowing!! I would have thought you didn’t give a f***ing s**t.

  98. <em>To be hated by liberals/republicans</em>

    This Republican doesn’t hate you, I pity you more than anything else.

  99. Andrew

    This Republican doesn’t hate you, I pity you more than anything.

  100. Frank,

    Well, my son is still at school, y’see the problem, pal? And no, I won’t ban you since you are perfectly entitled to prove you are an idiot! LOL

  101. NOTHING wrong with care workers Frank!! God bless em. And Andrew – with you on that fwiw

  102. David,
    Ypur son is the age to join the British army, is he not- as you informed all of his age last year?
    So what does he need with school- can’t he be like the other young men and join up and go fight the war you advocate?
    or what about yourself and Andrew, I hear Bush is looking for more squaddies?
    You wouldn’t be an ould hypocrite now would you?
    Will you ban me this time? Each and every time I have asked you to go to iraq, you have banned me.

  103. Frank – why ban you? You are starting to make the case for intolerance on the left and going overboard yourself.

  104. Frank, I think David’s contribution to the war effort is keeping YOU pinned down HERE!

  105. I didn’t say there was anything wrong with careworkers; what I am saying is that we must understand the frustration they feel considering their duties

  106. Frank – why ban you?

    Well, Vance has banned me at least 9 times, that I have asked the same question- Why is he and his son not in iraq? or is that just too lowly and dirty for them.
    Ask vance why he bans me!!!
    LOL indeed.

  107. Charles,
    i just love when all these war advocates won’t send their own younsters, nor go themselves, don’t you, LOL

  108. Perhaps it is a silent "P", like the one in swimming pool! Boom Boom!

  109. Im a war advocate and id go..if that counts.

  110. ‘Andy Pandy is a care worker who wipes arses.’

    No, I am care worker who exchanges pleasantries with arses, Frank. And you’re the biggest arse of them all.

    Gaskin

    Pity me, eh? As the saying goes: ‘Pity is reserved for those who have no fight left in them.’

    Overweight, a supporter of terrorism, a hypocrite! There’s plenty in your own mirror to pity before you move on to anyone else!

  111. so what’s holding you up there alison, a toothache?

  112. I’m with you Alison. A tried and true tactic of the left is the "chickenhawk argument". It aims to deflect our support for the war b/c we haven’t fought. But I submit that this war will be won or lost in the media, blogs included.

  113. I agree Charles.

    No Frank. Not a toothache.

  114. Poor old Frank, has the medication worn off?

    Your standard of debate is supernaturally low, you have made no attempt to deal with the issue on this post because I suspect you can’t. In the words of another Madness song, "You’re an embarrassment"! Now that’s enough time wasted on you.

  115. andy pandy jealous of the ‘mick’ who bettered him in every way. lol indeed

  116. Poor old Frank, has the medication worn off?

    Your standard of debate is supernaturally low, you have made no attempt to deal with the issue on this post because I suspect you can’t. In the words of another Madness song, "You’re an embarrassment"! Now that’s enough time wasted on you.

    In other words, you are another war advocate who will NOT SEND HIS OWN FLEDH AND BLOOD TO FIGHT THE BATTLES HE SCREAMS FOR.
    Ok, now when are you banning me again?

  117. Never, Token clowns are useful.

  118. Charles in Texas – good to see you back in the swing. If that damned Richmond Times or Atlanta Constitution had more backbone on their editorial pages, the Confederacy might have won! Damned journalists!

  119. Yes, Charles – a warm welcome.

  120. Thanks Mahons! I’ve been out of action for about a month, what with 12 hour days at work and back pain. And then there was that play off game of which we can not speak! It’s referred to in Dallas as "that Saturday unpleasantness."

  121. Thanks David. Good to be back!

  122. This new influx into the PSNI is just the right thing for a Polearised society.

  123. Frank

    The maximum age for recruitment to our Armed Forces is 33. I’m 34 and David is older than I. Care to explain how we enrol, moron?

  124. I think there’s also a sanity test!

  125. Ok, I admit it Cunningham, I laughed!

  126. Oh Andrew would pass it. All the smart principled guys are in our armed forces.

  127. Charles: What do Tony Romo and Billy Graham have in common? They can both get 60,000 people to fill a football stadium and shout out "Jesus Christ".

    The Jets and Giants dropped out on the same day so as Bill Clinton said "I fell your pain". Bring on baseball.

  128. ‘Too much sanity may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only trash. Perhaps to be practiced is madness. And madness of all, to see life as it is and not as it ought to be.’

    Cervantes in Don Quixote

    Though I appreciate for someone of your limited capacity for thought, Cunningham, Don Quixote is a Nik Kershaw hit.

  129. Madradin

    The difference between Andrew and I is obvious. I don’t think that anyone holding a different political view from mine should be "wiped out". I also don’t care for the word "ni**er" or any other blatently racist language.

    Andrew

    You could have signed up for the armed forces before you passed the maximum age. Why didn’t you?

    At any point since turning 18, you could have joined the RUC, UDR, RIR or PSNI and defended the state that you claim to love so much.

    I certainly had issues with the behaviour of the RUC and completely distusted the UDR. However, at least their members were prepared to lay their lives on the line for what they believed. I have known a few RUC and UDR personnel in my time. They were born here and none of them waffled on half as much as you do about how much they love NI etc etc.

    The way you talk, anyone would think that you’d actually put your life on the line and been involved in the fight against Republican terrorism.

    You’re forever droning on about how you love NI and the Union, your paternal grandfather, and how it must be defended and protected blah, blah, blah. You even try to claim some involvement in defending the Union ("my job is a successful one").

    What a joke. If you were anything more than a blowhard who is full of it, you would have done something tangible to defend the Union as you would put it. Instead your "contribution" is limited to posting on this website, sending letters to the Belfast Telegraph
    and calling TalkBack now and again.

    That will really have Republicans running scared.

  130. >>Though I appreciate for someone of your limited capacity for thought, Cunningham, Don Quixote is a Nik Kershaw hit.<<

    Andrew, even yet you overestimate me! I’ve never heard of Nik Kershaw, really!

    In any case, with your, ultimately tragic, view of the the course the country you love is taking, I can see how you can relate so strongly to Don Quixote.

    NTW. I though it was Neil Diamond that had a hit with it. You know, that ditty that goes..

    The last Picasso may gather dust amid the ruins,
    and Don Quixote, Well Don Quixote
    may no longer make his wishful tunes;
    but I still have you
    and I will have you
    when ev’rything else is gone and done with.
    We’ll be like one with the last Picasso.

    Goodnight

  131. Charles and Mahons,

    Speaking of football, did you see that somebody in Los Angeles is willing to pay some guy named Beckham a quarter of a billion dollars to play SOCCER IN AMERICA? It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad world all right.

    BTW, Charles, I still owe you some Buffalo chicken wings [and no, not because the Bills didn’t even make the playoffs, Mahons].

  132. Hello Alan, I did hear about that Beckham chap coming to America. I think he wants us to teach him how to play football. We’ll have to get him a helmet though!

  133. Charles, he’ll never get the knack of it; no hands you see.

  134. Nice to see you back Charles 🙂

  135. AMcC

    That politician who broke your heart by not employing you as his runaround must be kicking himself now.

    Your personal attacks on people and outright bigotry are shameful. " degrees in politics and you wipe peoples arses for a living, perhaps you ought to look at yourself before criticising others!

  136. Right – this thread is now ending because it is just a series of personal attacks. No more posts please – and I’m sorry that the substance in my original post ie the apparent disinterest amongst the indigenous population to enforce the law somehow got lost.

    C’est la vie.