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DISUNITED KINGDOM…

By ATWadmin On January 12th, 2007

There is little doubt that Labour’s desire to bring about the destruction of the United Kingdom has seen considerable advance over the past ten years. As this article in The Scotsman suggests, should Scotland leave the UK, then the residual parts – England, Wales and Northern Ireland, may also split apart.


The issue here is the rise of Scottish Nationalism, and how this has been fed, rather than assuaged, by the NuLabour driven devolution of power to the Scottish Parliament – without Scotland having to assume any degree of financial responsibility for its wanton Statism. The impression is that Scotland can afford to be a Tartan Socialist nirvana without any fiscal concerns. It can take take take from the British Exchequer – predominantly driven by English largesse -without any pain, or any giving.


Now I don’t know if the people of Scotland WILL endorse the loony tunes in the SNP later this year, but if they do, then this does indeed threaten the constitutional foundation of the United Kingdom. As someone who values the Union, I would not like to see this situation brought about but it is up to the Scottish electorate to decide if they wish to remove themselves from the Kingdom or not. 


Hat-tip to the ATW reader for the story.

52 Responses to “DISUNITED KINGDOM…”

  1. This development is very interesting, and I would be interested to see if what you suggest about Scotland being able to stand alone economically is really true. Who would own what’s left of the oil for example?

    How would the unionist majority in the 6 counties be able to justify the union with London or would it seek union with Scotland? OR would it suddenly realise that it’s voice would be louder in a united Ireland?

    As you said, it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide if only the Irish electorate could decide what happens with Ireland!

    Interesting times ahead.

  2. I value the Union also. I know that together we are more than the sum of our parts and that, as Britain, no other nations as have had such a beneficial effect on the state of the world as we have.

    But it’s all gone now. Labour has not let the rabbit out of the bag, it’s pulled it out and it ain’t going back in. Scotland is irredeemably socialist, England is conservative. If a future general election returned a Tory majority becasue of English votes, even though Scotland voted socialist, the howls of outrage would be defeaning and the SNP would clean up.

    Let the Jocks go their own way, we’ll go ours. They can live in their Euro-socialist paradise, we can struggle on trading freely with the world. It’s been nice, we did great things together, toodle pip and there are no more cheques in the post.

  3. >>Who would own what’s left of the oil for example? <<

    If thats the only thing the Scots think will keep their economy going then disaster lays ahead.

    The scots should think long and hard about breaking the union. As the Irish have shown, its not just a case of pulling one flag down and running another up.

    I can see why they might want independance but their would be both economic and social pain as a result of scotland leaving the Union.

    For instance, their would be a residual large section of the population who would remain in favour of the union. How are they to be accommodated. It will create social schisms that will be hard to heal.

    The EU has already stated that scotland would not necessarily get automatic membership. Where is the revenue to be raised from ?

    Im not saying scottish independence is a bad thing, im just saying that they shouldnt go into it with their eyes closed, and they should be aware that it could time, a generation or two, for the effects of the break to dissipate.

  4. One other thing – we’ll need armed border guards from the Solway Firth to Berwick on Tweed. Once the Jocks go it alone, once the prop of gargantuan English taxpayer funding is removed, hordes of destitute, economic refugees will be forced to march south to find food. I hear that Poland is pretty empty these days, they can go there.

  5. I don’t know why it’s the Scots who are demanding independence. The current political and fiscal make up of our United Kingdom favours them. It’s the English who have more reason to want a split.

    The current farcical system where Scottish Westminster MPs elected and responsible only to Scottish electors can vote on domestic legislation only affecting England and Wales – it’s ludicrous.

  6. Couldnt agree more Colm. Well said

  7. There really has been a rise of English nationalism since Labour took over. One wonders who will cut the ties with who first ?

    I wonder what that would do for the ego of Scottish nationalism if England said goodbye first 🙂

  8. >>The EU has already stated that scotland would not necessarily get automatic membership<<

    Have you got a link to that story, Kloot?

    It’s a bit rich from the EU, making such a pronouncement, don’t you think? Imagine, Germany swallowed a destitute country of 17 million people, with a derelict infrastructure and an industry several decades behind the west and dragged it into the EU, in the process doing infinitely more damage to the EU economy and financial situation than any split-up of an EU nation like Britain ever could.

  9. A couple of points want bearing in mind.

    First is if Scorland leaves the union that’s the end of the UK. (As the UK is the state formed by union of Scotland and England). Sorry wales and (N) Ireland.

    If Scotland leaves the union, it’s EU status is the same as England’s. Both in, or both out.

    80% of EU oil resources are Scottish

    90% of EU fish resources are Scottish.

    Scotland has a huge financial services sector bigger per-capita than England’s.

    Scottish whisky revenue is gigantic.

    That’s all just for starters.

    Of course Scotland could stay in the Union and watch the remaining rump of its popuation go down the plug-hole thanks to the baleful influence of the Union.
    The Union has been a total disaster for Scotland financially, socially, culturally, and almost existentially.

    Scotland indeed is the last Soviet, but that’s because of the infuence of the union under which all sensible folk have been forced to leave. And the detruction of it’s education system nder Westminster diktat.

    Scotland’s relative population has been reduced by at least 80% under the union.

    Scotland has been drained of everything to support the stupid pretensions of the English !

  10. Here you go Cunningham

    http://euobserver.com/?aid=23197

  11. I wonder…. if the Union DID break up as a result, would all of its constituent parts have to re apply for EU membership, and if so…. could this be Englands way OUT of the EU…as it seems so many of them want

  12. ".. It can take take take from the British Exchequer – predominantly driven by English largesse -without any pain, or any giving"

    David, Scotland is the most heavily taxed part of the UK. They more than pay their way.

    Incidentally, I thought NI was the largest receptacle, and total drain on the UK exchequer. It costs us a fortune to maintain this outpost in the manner to which it has become accustomed. What do we get back ?

  13. Thanks, Kloot.

    According to the article, however, it is clear that Scotland’s membership of the EU would indeed "automatically" continue,it is just that the terms of that membership (voting rights, contributions, etc.) would – obviously – have to be renegotiated. There is no reason, however, why such renegotiation would not be to the advantage of the Scots.

    In a way, the EU should welcome this development (and that in Flanders, Catalonia) as it is in line with the eleborate "Europe of the Regions" policy being pursued for some decades now.

  14. Ah right Cunningham, I picked it up wrong. Cheers for the clarification. Well there goes my theory on the English leaving the EU…

    Has there been any discussion on the type of political model that is being proposed for independence. I presume it would be something similar to the Irish model, ie cermonial head of state, and like other democracies, an upper and lower house.

    What about the existing British political parties. I presume scottish tory (are there any ? ) and labour party members would leave those parties and form Scottish parties of the same values

  15. Dummy,

    I’m for cutting back on the public sector and Welfare handouts right across the UK – AS THIS is the biggest drain. NI is very bad at this but under the Scottish Parliament, so sadly is Scotland. Any idea how many work for the State in Scotland?

  16. <em>Scotland has a huge financial services sector bigger per-capita than England’s.</em>

    Dummy
    I’d be interested in seeing the stats for that.

    <em>Incidentally, I thought NI was the largest receptacle, and total drain on the UK exchequer</em>

    http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6941798

    Scotland receives over 20 billion a year from the Central Exchequer, this dwarfs the total paid out to N.Ireland.
    (And the rest of the Economist article is a decent read)

    Regarding the bigger question, it’s ironic now that belately the Labour Party has realised the damage to its own electoral prospects Scottish independence would bring. Without the 45 or so Scottish labour MPs its chances of holding onto power at Westnminster are greatly reduced. Still, better late than never and if they started giving NI citizens the same rights to vote for their party, then their overall position would probably be even stronger.

  17. Plenty. It used to be said, and I believe it is true, pre-devolution that there were more civil ‘servants’ in the Scottish Office than there were in the EU commission ! That situation is now much worse, of course.

    Also bear in mind that a lot of the so-called private sector is living off Scottish Executive contracts.

    However that also applies across the UK even in the South. In my trade the public sector is the only game in town at the moment, as a source of contracts.

    But the Scots do pay more tax than anyone else plus give over all their natural resources for free.

    So the whining of English nationalists, moaning about their little neighbour, is pathetic. None of the ‘arguments’ about Scotland being a subsidy-junkie have ever stood up to scrutiny.

  18. Dummy,

    Surely it is better for all four parts of the Kingdom to find commonality, to unite in purpose, than to argue? I am not a fan of nationalism, as to paraphrase Brendan Behan, it’s a pathology!

  19. But David, surely the Union has had 300 years to try and find this commonality.

    Is the union due an overhaul to try preserve it ?
    How do you convince a new generation, untouched by the world wars, of its benefits.

  20. Just spotted this Brendan Behan quote

    "Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

  21. >>I am not a fan of nationalism,<<

    Would you not consider yourself a British nationalist ?
    Is not everyone a nationalist of sort ?

  22. The whole concept of the union does nothing for "commonality", the opposite is true in fact.

    The poorer relations in the union were the first and may be the last of the colonies, stripped of their individuality and resources, their cultures and traditions suppressed along with their languages.To serve what purpose exactly? Yes England’s.

    Is it any wonder anti English attitudes in Scotland Wales and Ireland prevail?

  23. I agree David, to an extent. (Whilst noting that it was you who started this divisive thread).

    I don’t think any arrangement which results in catastrophic population loss for one party, and resettlement by foreigners, can really ever recommend itself. Not even on nostalgic grounds.

    It is true that the Scots, English Welsh and Irish share a language and a heavily statist outlook on life. There is obviously much in common. Why are the English so bothered about Scotland ?

    If there is a discrepancy in inwards public funding under the Barnett formula, that’s only because the Barnett formula was worked out in the 50s, on a relative population basis. Since then the population has continued to decline, resulting in higher per-capita allocation. So whilst they may have a small percent difference in public sector allocation, they’ve had to give up family who have had to move away. Not exactly right or proper, and all due to the pro-English London government. And it’s more than balanced out by the confiscation of Scottish resources

    There are also the moans about Jocks in parliament running England, etc etc. Well who should care ? It’s an anomaly; in the long run since union, it’s the English that have been running Scottish affairs to England’s benefit. That’s the standard position throughout the history of the Union.

    Now that there are a few extra Scots in the London parliament, I see no reason to complain. It’s just an anomaly of the system that will soon pass.

  24. "the Scots, English Welsh and Irish share a language and a heavily statist outlook on life"

    Dummy – if that is your real name….The Irish do not have a statist outlook. You are wrong.
    Ireland is one of the most liberal, corporate, low tax, and dare I say it – right wing economies in Europe – Thanks largely to 10 years of Right Wing Government.

    Please correct yourself.

  25. ARMAGHLITE, your real name ?

    I was talking about the UK Irish. The bit of the UK we refer to as Northern Ireland, which isn’t overwhelmingly Irish, as it happens.

    Dummy (not my real name)

  26. Well then you should have said Northern Ireland, Not Ireland.

    You stand corrected.

  27. Why ? Don’t you mean Eire ?

  28. Dummy

    Can you defend the ludicrous position whereby all Scottish Westminster MPs can only vote and influence domestic polcies for England and Wales and have no legislative say on the domestic polcies affecting the very people who elected them.

  29. "The bit of the UK we refer to as Northern Ireland, which isn’t overwhelmingly Irish, as it happens."

    Sorry to drag this thread back into tribal identity etc but unionists, notwithstanding their British identity, are still Irish.

    On the main issue, Kloot raises an interesting point. Independence for Scotland would not solve all its problems and indeed would raise many new ones – status of oil, the British army, the NHS etc etc.

    I suppose the main argument in favour is the Scottish people will have the freedom to make their own choices (and mistakes) but have the satisfaction that they are theirs. I think that is something to aspire to.

  30. Eire is the Irish Language word for Ireland. As I posted in the English language I used the English language word – Ireland. It is also Irlande in French and Irlanda in Spanish.

    Do try to improve your knowledge Dummy.

  31. No. No more than I can defend Engish MPs influencing policy for Scottish constituencies, which never elected them.

    Bear in mind that this devolution lash-up was proposed,passed and imposed on Scotland by the unrepresentative power of English MPs. (Which is standard practice over the last 300 years since the Union).

    Can you defend that ?

  32. Armagh lite, this is a thread about the Union. Irish in that context can only mean northern ‘irish’.

    The misundertanding is all yours !

    And I’m sure not many unionists would accept the ‘Irish’ handle you just gave them. Why should they ? For hundreds of years they’ve been British, many of recent descent from the mainland.

    So in your mind they’re Irish because .. they share a land border with a state called ‘Ireland’ that was founded around 1922 ?

  33. Kloot,

    I’m a great Behan fan – thanks for getting the quote precise. He was a great humourist.

    Dummy,

    Didn’t mean to create divisiveness but – lol – I can see my intentions failed!

  34. Oh Dummy dummy dummy DUMMY

    Please show me where on this post I said Unionists were Irish??

    You said Irish were statist – then went on to say you meant Irish in the UK – Northern Island context. It was you that called them Irish in the first instance and since. Not I.

    You really are confused and are embarrasing yourself.

    I took issue with you saying that the "Irish" were statist when this is clearly not true.

    You still stand corrected.

    As they say on the Catherine Tate Show – Take The Shame Man – Take the Shame.

  35. A selection of Summies quotes from this thread….

    "the Scots, English Welsh and Irish share a language and a heavily statist outlook on life"

    "The bit of the UK we refer to as Northern Ireland, which isn’t overwhelmingly Irish, as it happens"

    "So in your mind they’re Irish because .. they share a land border with a state called ‘Ireland’ "

    Cheers for the laugh Dum Dummie !!!

  36. Maybe. I’m not sure.. I still think that if you take part in a discussion about the UK, it’s a bit of a stretch to assume that ‘Irish’ means someone from the Republic if Ireland.

    And I’m sure many unionists would object to me giving them that handle too. But I don’t care.

  37. >>I’m a great Behan fan<<

    I tried to read his biography but found it very hard to be honest. I cant remember exacty what it was that turned me off the book. I might try it again soon.

  38. "So in your mind they’re Irish because .. they share a land border with a state called ‘Ireland’ that was founded around 1922 ?"

    Nothing to do with them being from the island/country called "Ireland" then?

    Anywho, if Scotland did leave the Union, would there be any sense of conflicting loyalties for Ulster Scots – i.e. the remnants of the UK v Scotland? I’m not trying to be smart – its a genuine question.

  39. Kloot – Have you read Borstal Boy? One of the best books ever written. Full of Dublin wit.

  40. Lads..lads ..lads… enough with the arguing over whether were all Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish or what ever…

    What matters is that were all European!! 🙂

  41. >>Kloot – Have you read Borstal Boy? One of the best books ever written. Full of Dublin wit.<<

    I tried.. im trying to remember why I gave it up.. Ill give it ago again.

  42. Borstal Boy is excellent! It’s on my bookcase. (or one of them!)

  43. Ill pick it up this evening so…

    Just finished Kevin Myers 1971 – 1978, from his time in NI as a journo. Let anyone who romanticises terrorism give that a read and see how they feel afterwards.

  44. "Just finished Kevin Myers 1971 – 1978, from his time in NI as a journo. Let anyone who romanticises terrorism give that a read and see how they feel afterwards."

    I’ve heard it’s very good, Kloot. Don’t know if I could ever buy it though, given how much I detest the author and his oddball rantings.

  45. Dummy

    The comparison is not accurate. Previously all MPs had a vote on all legislation affecting every part of the UK – that is the logic of a single nation state. Now under the new legislative dispensation Scottish MPs have no say on Scottish domestic matters where their electorate is but full say in domestic matters elsewhere in the UK. This is a unique situation which I don’t think is repeated anywhere else in the democratic world.

  46. "Previously all MPs had a vote on all legislation affecting every part of the UK "

    The effect of which was the English MPs had complete control of Scottish affairs for 300 years.

    "but full say in domestic matters elsewhere in the UK. This is a unique situation which I don’t think is repeated anywhere else in the democratic world."

    So what ? They’re a minority, so English MPs still control what goes on. Do you think they would put up with it otherwise …

    And in the end England is always welcome to leave the Union, and go it alone.

  47. >>Don’t know if I could ever buy it though, given how much I detest the author and his oddball rantings.<<

    I couldnt relate the person I was reading about in the book to my perception of the Author as it stands today.

    Tell you one thing though, that guy did well with the..erm… ladies.. while he was up there. Every chapter a different girl!

    But, it is a very good read although some might find his cosing up to terrorists discomforting, but the message he gets across is clear, these people murdered innocent people in the most vicious way

  48. Dummy

    "The effect of which was the English MPs had complete control of Scottish affairs for 300 years."

    And non-Yorkshire MPs had complete control of Yorkshire…. and Non-London MPs had complete control of London …etc etc

    Do you get my point ?

  49. Your point is specious.

    The English regions were not cleared of their population and they didn’t have their natural resources confiscated for the benefit of a foreign nation.

    In fact the opposite is true, the English regions have benefited from the transfer of Scottish assets to the South.

  50. Dummy

    You are viewing the whole issue falsely as one of a sovereign state colonising another territory, whereas I am seeing it truthfully for what it is one singular state called the UK. All your talk of confiscated resources and assets and going to a ‘foreign’ nation is specious.

  51. No, I’m just saying the union has been a disaster for Scotland on any measure.

    Whether the Scots have a few more Westminster MPs than you would like practically speaking hardly matters to anyone except a raving English nationalist.

  52. At the time of union in 1707, Scotland had been rendered bankrupt by the Darien scheme, a ill-conceived attempt to establish a Scottish colony in central America.

    If England becomes independent and conforms to its free-market tendencies, then Scotland will be obliged to track the fiscal policy of England. If not, then the high tax rates which the socialists in Scotland would impose will drive capital down to England.