web analytics

THE ATHENS OF THE NORTH…

By David Vance On March 17th, 2017

Whenever you hear Scottish Nationalists drone on about just how incredibly successful an Independent Scotland would be – just take a look at the financial reality. It has. deficit BIGGER than Greece. In this way the SNP really will turn Edinburgh into “the Athens of the North”!

38 Responses to “THE ATHENS OF THE NORTH…”

  1. Not very credible as it comes from the Spectator, and who would believe the OECD would provide separate figures for Scotland and for the UK!

    Norway and Luxembourg are special cases; but how does New Zealand make its money, anyone know? There can’t be that much gold in sheep.

  2. In a way you’re making the case for independence. This just goes to show how facile a region can become when only a small part of a greater whole and with little power of its own. Scotland has over two centuries of over dependence on London to work through.

    Independence isn’t gained cheaply. They can achieve it without bloodshed, but not without sweat from their brow. How badly do they want to control their own destiny?

  3. They want to control their destiny at all if they exchange their place in England’s welfare line for a place in the Brussels welfare line

    As Farage said on RTE this past Wednesday, The notion of being independent while being a member of the EU is preposterous

    Apart from tourism and the production of scotch whiskey I have no idea what the Scots do for a living. Maybe a few people at Royal Bank of Scotland shuffle papers around every day

  4. The EU to a large extent is a union of equals, not hugely unlike the 50 states of America. Okay, some countries are like California (i.e. Germany) and have more sway.

    However, to compare Ireland’s position within the EU and Scotland’s position within the UK does not stand up to scrutiny.

  5. Scotland must leave the EU because a country with over five times Scotland’s population says it wants to leave.

    Is the UK a union of equals and if it’s not why wouldn’t the Scots want to leave?

  6. That’s correct

    But no one would claim that Arkansas is independent

    The Scottish National Party are claiming that they are striving for independence, when they are not doing any such thing

  7. The Scottish National Party are claiming that they are striving for independence, when they are not doing any such thing

    But they are, they are striving for independence from the UK?

  8. Your arguments are completely confused

    Arkansas is not independent, but neither is it oppressed

    It is very possible that the best course of action is for Scotland to be a member state of the EU. It’s fine for anyone to say that.

    But it is completely wrong for any Scotsman or Irishman to claim that their countries can be members of the EU while being independent.

    The EU is independent, but none of it’s constituent parts are.

  9. Your arguments are completely confused

    Arkansas is not independent, but neither is it oppressed

    It is very possible that the best course of action is for Scotland to be a member state of the EU. It’s fine for anyone to say that.

    But it is completely wrong for any Scotsman or Irishman to claim that their countries can be members of the EU while being independent.

    The EU is independent, but none of it’s constituent parts are.

  10. But it is completely wrong for any Scotsman or Irishman to claim that their countries can be members of the EU while being independent.

    Absolute bollocks. In the EU the Irish are Irish and should Scotland gain independence and be part of the EU they will be seen as Scots, Are the Brits any more Brits than they were nine months ago?

    And anyway, as explained to you many times before, in Ireland it is the will of the people that is sovereign

  11. The EU is not a state though. It could be argued to be a quasi-state, but it’s not a country of any sort.

  12. //But it is completely wrong for any Scotsman or Irishman to claim that their countries can be members of the EU while being independent.//

    Ireland has its own constitution and a president to monitor compliance with it, its own government with full executive powers, its own army, foreign ministry and taxation.
    It can enter into and leave foreign federations and alliances as it wishes; e.g. it could leave the EU and sign an alliance treaty with Russia if and when it wants to.

    To suggest that Ireland’s position vis-a-vis the EU is the same as Scotland’s within the UK is more a sign of anti-EU desperation than anything else.

  13. I never said that Ireland’s position as a member of the EU was identical to that of Scotland’s was within the UK

    Neither is independent, we can agree on that, and Ireland has some of the trappings of an independent nation, but it has ceded it’s national power us over foreign trade and immigration and other important things are to a foreign body, in exchange for cash and other good things that have come from Brussels

    Do not count me with those here that vilify the EU

    I only wish to state the obvious – that if you are a member of the EU, you might have the sweetest deal of all time, but you are not independent

  14. As said above, the Irish are Irish in the EU and the Scots will be Scots if it ever comes to pass. The Brits are no more Brits than they were before June.

    Of course Ireland is independent, Ireland can do what it wishes of its own volition unlike Scotland in the smaller union.

  15. //I never said that Ireland’s position as a member of the EU was identical to that of Scotland’s was within the UK//

    You certainly suggested that neither has any independence.

    And that’s simply wrong, for the reasons I mentioned.

    And, please, none of this “we can agree on that” stuff. We obviously don’t “agree on that”.

    I mean, as anyone who knows a bit about the EU – or even anyone who reads newspapers – realises, member states have not ceded power over immigration to Brussels.
    You’re raving.

  16. Noel

    You’re quite wrong, which is surprising as you very often correct.

    Neither Ireland nor Scotland are independent, nor is there any movement in either nation, including from the big talkers from SNP or Sinn Fein to bring them to independence, as anyone would have understood the term pre-1973.

    If you don’t have the right to control your trade or your borders, you simply are not independent.

    A Korean can’t move to Japan if he feels like it, because Japan is independent and they decide which foreigners get to set foot in Japan, no one else.

    But a Spanish citizen can move permanently to Dublin any day he wishes, and he doesn’t need to ask for any permission from the Irish government before doing so.

    Again, there is a case to be made that EU membership is more important than independence- as the term independence is understood in Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc.

    If you think that a ” country ” that has a massive executive making most important decisions for it is independent, then we disagree.

  17. //If you think that a ” country ” that has a massive executive making most important decisions for it is independent, then we disagree.//

    I believe that a country that can join or leave any alliance or international organisation as it wishes is independent, yes.

    Because all other freedoms of a state come from that one freedom.

    Otherwise, to follow your illogic, you would have to say that Ireland was never independent, and indeed that the UK also lost its independence in 1921!

    You see, each wasn’t allowed stop citizens of the other state from taking up residence within its territory.

    But of course (now leaving Phantom constitutional politics and getting back to the real world) each state also realised that it benefited from such a mutual exchange of residency rights.

    Similarly today, Ireland – if not all EU members – benefits from the flow of workers from and to our country.

    Moreover, no country in the 21st C – including the US – is free to do what it wishes to the ridiculous extent you now require from European countries. The US is obliged to obey the rules of international organisations, treaties and laws it has entered into. I can imagine a 19th Century Phantom would have been shouting that such a curtailment of the central government’s freedom is a loss of independence. No doubt several hysterics did at the time.

    But of course the US is free and independent because it can defy and leave the organisations in question or withdraw from any onerous treaties when it wishes.

    And, you know what, so can Ireland.

  18. The UK determined its own immigration policy in 1921

    I am stating that Canada, the US, Korea, Japan, China, Russia, Singapore ( and many other nations ) are independent, but that the member states of the EU are not.

    No need to freak out.

    You in Ireland / Spain / Germany are not Arkansas or Oregon, but neither are you Japan or the US which have the right to control immigration or to enter into or abrogate trade deals as they wish.

  19. //The UK determined its own immigration policy in 1921//

    It determined by treaty that it could not stop citizens of another state residing in its territory. It was entitled to withdraw from that treaty at any time.

    So was and is Ireland.

  20. The best thing about that graphic is the one between Iceland and Greece. Both got into trouble around the same time. Both need help. But only one seems to have sorted itself out. That is because it is NOT part of the Euro ! That means it can control its own interest rates, currency and all its tax rates. Greece really cannot do jack ! It is a vassal state much like the other 27, including the UK.

    States in the USA have more power over themselves than those ‘Countries’ in the EU.

    But in over two years time, providing they do not cock it up, we will be leaving the Stupid Club. 🙂

  21. Oh. Sorry. forgot my manners.

    Happy Paddy’s Day 🙂

  22. I believe that a country that can join or leave any alliance or international organisation as it wishes is independent, yes

    That’s absolutely the point that Phantom fails to (willfully?) grasp Noel

    Article I of Bunreacht na hÉireann

    THE NATION

    Article 1

    The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

    That means that the people of Ireland who governs Ireland and what alliances she partakes in. That’s not independence?

    Do not count me with those here that vilify the EU

    Oh please

  23. *the people of Ireland decide who governs Ireland

  24. States in the USA have more power over themselves than those ‘Countries’ in the EU

    Please see above Mark. Do US states have the right to accede from the union? I think the last time that was tried there was some minor trouble.

  25. Sure, keep trying to convince yourselves.

    You’re not independent.

    There is a path to independence, but there is zero interest in going down that path.

    On this matter of fact, I think that Farage is spot on correct.

    Your position may be completely wonderful, it may benefit the majority of your people, but it is not independence.

  26. Let’s see how much the EU chooses to brutalize the UK on its way out before we talk about how countries have the right to leave the club.

  27. Sure, keep trying to convince yourselves.

    Phantom, it has been shown unambiguously above where the Irish have total, absolute and utter independence over what form of government Ireland has and what alliances she makes.

    I have consistently explained to you that it is the will of the people of Ireland that is sovereign.

    It’s not just a river in Africa you know.

    Let’s see how much the EU chooses to brutalize the UK on its way out before we talk about how countries have the right to leave the club

    No, let’s not, because it’s a strawman which has no bearing on wether the decisision to leave exists or not. It seems that if Scotland wants to go from the smaller union it must be okayed by Westminster. Now that, much like have to leave the EU because a country with five times your population decides it wants to, isn’t independence.

  28. A nation which ‘independently’ hands over its sovereign powers to a supra-national body is no longer independent. Scotland did that 300 years ago and Scotland is not independent. The UK is attempting to recover independence from the EU as decided by referendum and yet the process is only beginning

  29. Scotland has a say in the affairs of the UK, and can leave if it so wishes.

    A Scotland in the EU would have a say in its affairs, and could leave if it so wishes ( subject to a beatdown that may come first )

    But in either situation, a larger entity controls immigration, trade, fisheries, all that.

    A true supporter of independence would want to go the route of Singapore, a wealthy country with a similar sized population to Scotland or Ireland that has complete control of its immigration, trade, everything.

    A country that size should not have any need to be in any ” club ” that makes decisions for it. This view should not be hard to understand, even if one thinks that the UK/EU are the best things since sliced bread.

  30. If Scotland were to leave the UK, I think that the English would wish them well and would not seek to punish them.

    But when the UK seeks to leave the EU, we hear endless talk of how it should be punished for their choice in various ways.

  31. Happy st.pats from the cathedral in nyc 🙂

  32. Jude, Good man. I’m glad you made it to St Patrick’s. Now mind yourself tonight! 🙂

  33. Good man Jude.

  34. Scotland has a bigger deficit even than Greece. Somehow you’re not surprised.

  35. Phantom, it has been shown unambiguously above where the Irish have total, absolute and utter independence over what form of government Ireland has and what alliances she makes.

    Which is “not in all things”. The RoI, like all EU regions, is controlled and directed by Brussels overlords. The T-Shock is in Washington with President Trump this week, and he isn’t even allowed to talk trade with him. That’s not sovereignty or independence.

  36. The remarkable thing about the chart is it shows 7 states (one of them is Luxemburg) in surplus and 25 in deficit. And Uncle Sam is one of the worst and about to get worster under you-know-who.

  37. That’s an awful lot of deficit-funding the central bankers are only too happy to facilitate.

  38. Yes Pete. That’s one of the reasons we have permanent zero interest rates. The Bank of England has hinted that it will let inflation rise to (maybe) 5% before it will increase base rate from its ludicrous 0.25%.

    All governments are desperate for inflation to reduce the real value of their enormous debts. And if interest rates reverted to “normal” which would be 4% at present, the cost of servicing those debts would break their budgets. As it is, the UK is projecting continued deficits for the next eight years at least.

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.