web analytics

A Slow Bus to South Armagh

By ATWadmin On November 6th, 2006

It is an area of Northern Ireland I heartily recommend visiting for those who are deluded into believing the IRA and its supporters were the oppressed masses of the Troubles.  I am talking about South Armagh, a demographic stain on the Queen’s Realm.  Packed to the rafters with the big-wigs of the Provisional IRA and dotted with villages bursting at the seams with the scum who vote for them.

To some outsiders, news footage down the years can deter some from driving around the myriad of small roads that criss-cross this area of the United Kingdom.  However, the scenery is wonderful (nature is not responsible for the dross who live on it).  I had a venture through there back in 2001.  One of the biggest eye-openers is the sheer size of the rural houses in the area.  Each one looks like a cross between Southfork and Falcon Crest.  How can an area officially classed as deprived be sprinkled with some of the largest dwellings you’re likely to find outside London’s stockbroker belt?  It is because first impressions don’t do an area justice.  How many tourists have crossed South Armagh and associated the large mansions as products of an honest day’s labour?  Most I would guess.  To find out what this hidden corner of the Union is actually like, it is best to take a trip with the leader of victims’ group FAIR, Willie Frazer.

Frazer is, in my view, a bit of an eccentric character.  At the same time, he is also an honest and decent man who knows more about the calibre of the denizens of South Armagh than most.  He should do given that several members of his family were killed in cold blood by the terrorists lauded in Crossmaglen and the surrounding district by illegal monuments.  Suzanne Breen took a trip with Frazer on his South Armagh tour.  Reading her resulting article is somewhat breathtaking.  Frazer seems to know the background of each area he pauses at, and each inhabitant who swaggers along the rural lanes.  Although not mentioned here, Frazer has talked of a phenomenon I too experienced when driving through South Armagh.  When you’re driving along a country lane and pass someone walking towards you, as you pass that person will turn around and stare at your car until you are out of sight.  I have never experienced that anywhere else I’ve ever visited.  It’s almost as if the scumbags know who is part of their little omerta community and who is an outsider.  Paranoia and terrorist obsequiousness!  These guys really have issues!!

Have a browse around the Fair website and peruse through Breen’s findings.  The next time I am in Northern Ireland, I would like a meeting with Willie Frazer to be high on my agenda. 

115 Responses to “A Slow Bus to South Armagh”

  1. It’s a pity Suzanne was too polite to ask Frazer about his own links to terrorists, including to some who carried out vicious sectarian killings in that same area, which of course he totally ignores.

    Still, Frazer does come across as a sincere and likeable individual. One can’t help but feel sympathy for someone who lost his dad and other family members as he did.

    Two points: the large houses around the border area are very often built by Southererns escaping from the land prices south of the border. This phenomenon has made Newry the fastest growing real estate market in the entire UK!

    Second – the people who stop and stare. They do this everywhere, and have always done so, in south Ulster, at least also in Cavan and Monaghan. It’s nothing more than natural and naive curiosity.

  2. Cunningham,

    Those are very interesting observations you make – esp re the big houses on the border. Hadn’t thought of that but it makes sense. Just wait till they get their new rates bills – whoops!

  3. Perhaps you’d like to challenge Mr Frazer on his links to ‘terrorists’ in a court of law? Or would such a hearing expose the scurrilous accusations for what they are?

    Mansions in South Armagh predate Southern influx and, indeed, the UK property price boom.

    Whether people stop and stare in other parts I couldn’t say. What I can say is that, having been to over 30 countries and driven in many of them, I have never experienced this. For ‘curiosity’ read ‘pig-bloody-ignorance’.

  4. ‘When you’re driving along a country lane and pass someone walking towards you, as you pass that person will turn around and stare at your car until you are out of sight.’

    Sure I used to do that all the time in a less southern part of Armagh. I used to be prepared to dive into a hedge and run like the clappers in case the car stopped and men with guns got out. I still do it in Dublin, but it’s so as drivers don’t splash me with puddles at the roadside.

  5. So the Republic has puddles? And there’s me thinking the place was perfect. Must have been reading too many nationalist takes on the place.

  6. PS More great journalism from Suzanne.

  7. Charming. People living in Nationalist areas are’dross’. Sinn Fein voters are ‘scum’.

    That’s lovely.

    With attitudes like that, it’s no wonder Northern Ireland is such a happy, relaxed, carefree, ‘feelgood’ place.

  8. "Perhaps you’d like to challenge Mr Frazer on his links to ‘terrorists’ in a court of law? Or would such a hearing expose the scurrilous accusations for what they are?"

    Perhaps a hearing would expose this accusation as being scurrilous. However, bear in mind that a NI court refused Mr Frazer’s application for a gun licence on the basis of his terrorist links.

    Anyway, I would have thought that the last person to give a good and FAIR tour of South Armagh would be Crazy Willie!

  9. Oops – I meant on the basis of his "alleged" terrorist links.

    How remiss of me.

  10. <i>Frazer is, in my view, a bit of an eccentric character</i>

    Said the pot of the kettle.

  11. Henry – why don’t you concentrate on trying to sort your own country out – another shooting in Limerick, this time a child hurt.

  12. Limerick badly needs its own Peace Process.

  13. Madradin Ruad

    Full marks for irrelevance. If someone starts a thread on Limerick I will be happy to contribute. If you don’t want me contributing on the issues raised here then your only option is to ask david vance to ban me.

  14. "Contribute" is an interesting choice of word Henry.

    <i>Said the pot of the kettle.</i>

    If a "contribution" like that is all you have to offer it’s probably best you don’t try and become involved in your own country – they have enough problems.

  15. <i>Limerick badly needs its own Peace Process.</i>

    Dublin also seems to have had quite a few murderous attacks of late … but NI is a handy distraction…

  16. But Mad, tis all the one country; hence our southern brethren’s concern 😉

  17. Reg – It’s a handy distraction from all the terrible problems they face – The Violence, the debt problem, the immigrant problem, Bertie’s finances, Bertie’s deal with the church over the abuse compensation,The abuse problem, Corruption,the dodgy policing …..

  18. South Armagh a demographic stain on the Queen’s Realm? Surely she has suffered enough. Perhaps if she gave it back it would trouble her less?

  19. With regard to the stopping and staring until you’re out of sight thing, if you don’t have Armagh or ROI license plates you’re probably persona non grata. In Country Antrim if you drive past someone on a back road or country lane they’ll usually wave at you as if they knew you! As a townie I usually find that a bit odd but I still wave back cos it makes you feel welcome.

    It’s safe to say I’ll never visit South Armagh since I don’t conceal my Britishness too well, which would be "unwise". I’d immediately be given away by the look of disgust on my face if I saw an IRA memorial. Inspite of what anyone claims a "Brit" is unwelcome there.

  20. Mahons – we have tried to gift it to the Free State – they most definitely don’t want it 😉

  21. "South Armagh a demographic stain on the Queen’s Realm? Surely she has suffered enough. Perhaps if she gave it back it would trouble her less?"

    And the rest, Mahons!

  22. ‘With regard to the stopping and staring until you’re out of sight thing, if you don’t have Armagh or ROI license plates you’re probably persona non grata.’

    This is more like it. I’d go a step further and say that they’re probably adding up the digits of your numberplate, since fenians only drive cars whose digits add up to an even number.

  23. lol, Andrew should get that anger out of his system by beating the crap out of a random mick. Thats my opinion anyway; brutal but effective for stress realease 😉

  24. Not quite sure what the last few comments are about.

    Fascinating article. I always like Suzanne’s peices.

    So many empty places around the dining table in so many homes. Poor Majella O’Hare would be 42 now. Very sad.

    I haven’t done the S Armagh tour. I bought Toby Harnden’s book Bandit Country. I could only skim it and the Kingsmill massacre still haunts me. The bit about them thinking that it was loylaists and when they asked if there were any catholics one of them whispered to the one RC not to say anythng and they would vouch for him. Luckily for him they sussed him out. The thought of him left there with all his co workers slaughtered all round him is just horrible. I wonder where and how he is now.

  25. Andrew

    There is no requirement to test Mr Frazer’s links to "loyalist" terrorists in a court of law. The PSNI openly stated that this was one of the main reasons that he was denied a gun permit. When Frazer contested this in court, the court agreed with the PSNI about his links with "loyalist" terrorists and upheld the decsion.

    He has also stated on Radio Ulster that the "loyalist" terrorists who were released under the GFA should never have been put in prison in the first place. I have heard Frazer hundreds of times on TV and Radio – I have yet to hear him retract these remarks or condemn "loyalist" terrorism.

    He knew some members of the "Glenanne gang" – a notorious sectarian gang who murdered many innocent Catholics in Armagh during the 70s.

    He described Billy Wright as a good friend and a decent man.

    There have been high profile UDA members openly attending many FAIR marches.

    There have been hundreds of innocent Catholics killed in this area (but as usual you conveniently forget about them as does Frazer).

    I’m sorry for Frazer’s loss but he is far from the only the only person to have lost family to terrorism.

    He is clearly a bitter man who is only interested in condemning "republican" terrorism while indulging in moral equivalence with regard to "loyalist" terrorism. I can see why he would have a lot in common with you.

    I’m with people like David Vance who totally condemn ALL terrorism.

  26. Have there been "hundreds of innocent catholics" murdered in South Armagh? The impression I have is that most of the fatalities in the area have been terrorists and members of the security forces. Any murders, regardless of religion, are to be deplored. But I dislike this hyperbole and the subtle insinuation that all RCs who died in the area were killed by Prods . WF does speak of Innocent catholics killed by the Republicans.

    Some of the catholics killed in S Armagh were killed by the IRA, some by other republican factions. Some of the Catholics killed were British Soldiers and RUC men ….. Some of the catholics killed were anything but innocent – terrorists killed whiule committing crimes.

    Let’s have a little honesty here.

  27. The previous poster claiming to be me is a troll. I will post my own comment after I have got a few facts together.

  28. <em>I am talking about South Armagh, a demographic stain on the Queen’s Realm. Packed to the rafters with the big-wigs of the Provisional IRA and dotted with villages bursting at the seams with the scum who vote for them.</em>

    Coming from you we shall take that as a compliment

    <em>To find out what this hidden corner of the Union is actually like, it is best to take a trip with the leader of victims’ group FAIR, Willie Frazer.</em>

    Or better yet go around God’s country p****** out of your head because you will learn as much, if not more, than you ever will from Frazer.

    <em>he is also an honest and decent man</em>

    He is a liar and a fraud!!

    <em>several members of his family were killed in cold blood</em>

    edited by DV

    <em>I have never experienced that anywhere else I’ve ever visited.</em>

    Possibly because you didn’t have the Glenanne Gang and SAS dross like Nairac floating aroud the other areas you have visited.

  29. I’m not sure what’s going on here – Trolls seem to be appearing and if it does not stop then I will take action.

  30. Madradin

    "Any murders, regardless of religion, are to be deplored. But"

    BUT NOTHING!! – this is where I differ from yourself and McCann. You either condemn these terrorist activities outright with no caveats or you don’t and, in your case, you don’t. Neither does Frazer.

    At no time did I say that all Catholic victims in South Armagh were killed by "Prods" as you so eloquently put it. However, are you denying that, for example, the O’dowd brothers or the Miami Showband members were killed by "loyalist" terrorists simply because they were Catholics?

    My main point is that Frazer is a hypocrite. He represents victims of the IRA in South Armagh. However, not only does he not even mention the victims of "loyalist" terrorists, he refuses to condemn these same terrorists and (as mentioned above) stated on Radio that they should not have been jailed.

    As you portray yourself as a supporter of law and order, how come the evidence of Frazer’s association with "loyalist" terrorists is good enough for the PSNI and the NI High Court, but not apparently good enough for you?

    If a Catholic person stood up and condemned ‘loyalist" violence but said that IRA members should never have been jailed, Unionists quite rightly would be horrified.

    However, when Frazer does the reverse, people like you seem to think that Catholics should just say what a great guy he is.

    I may disagree with David Vance and other posters on this site but I respect and share their UNEQUIVOCAL condemnation of ANY AND ALL TERRORISM.

    You talk about honesty. When (and if) Frazer stands up and honestly condemns the murder of innocent Catholics in South Armagh by "loyalist" paramilitaries and says that ALL terrorists, regardless of religion should have been jailed, then I might give him some credibility.

    However, while he continues to condemn only "republican" terrorists while effectively defending "loyalist" terrorists, I believe any open minded person will see through this blatent hypocrisy.

  31. "Not quite sure what the last few comments are about."

    Just to clarify. there were a few comments jst before I wrote this that have been removed.

  32. Aileen,

    I removed them and banned the Troll responsible. I’m unsure about the posts attributed to Chris – but I want a tone of civility from all posters on this new site – makes for more pleasant read!!

  33. <em>As usual more bigoted bullshit from Andrew and his merry band of syncophants!!</em>

    I did not write this David

    I wrote the posts at 10:23 and 10:38

    <em>but I want a tone of civility from all posters on this new site</em>

    Perhaps you should inform some of your fellow bloggers about this new rule 😉

  34. I am saying nothing more on this thread, if anything futher is posted under my name, it’s not me!

  35. Chris,

    Thanks for clarifying – note I have edited as I see fit. You could have made the points a bit more civilly, as you often do.

  36. David

    Can I ask why I was edited?

  37. Right this is a joke!

    The poster at 11:17 is not me

  38. I believe you Chris! The 11.17pm WAS moi!

    As for why I edited them, a few words were ill-judged. I have no intention of editing you going forward but would just ask that you express your passionate views in a considered manner. I know that may sound a bit patronising, I don’t mean it that way. Since you are well capable of doing this, I hope you will help to keep the beat as civil as poss.

  39. "I believe you Chris! The 11.17pm WAS moi!"

    Why would you post pretending to be me? see below

    "I am saying nothing more on this thread, if anything futher is posted under my name, it’s not me!

    Monday, November 6, 2006 at 11:17PM | Chris Gaskin"

    "would just ask that you express your passionate views in a considered manner"

    I don’t know how I could have expressed my views in relation to the membership of the Glenanne Gang in a more considered way.

    It goes to the very crux of the points against Frazer

    Pretty hard to keep the beat civil David when the writer of this blog has insulted me, my friends, my family and my neighbours.

    I am sure you understand this, I was quite constrained in my replies.

    That said it is your site and I shall abide by the rules that you set, as I have always done.

  40. "Perhaps you’d like to challenge Mr Frazer on his links to ‘terrorists’ in a court of law? Or would such a hearing expose the scurrilous accusations for what they are?"

    Andrew,
    actually, it was the head of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who confirmed in a court of law that Frazer associated with terrorists.

    As a result, Frazer was refused the right to carry a firearm just like other potential terrorist threats.

    Are you calling the police liars?

  41. For all the lawyers out there, I agree wholeheartedly with the police when they say that Willie Frazer is a known associate of terrorists.

  42. "Perhaps you’d like to challenge Mr Frazer on his links to ‘terrorists’ in a court of law?"

    Actually Andrew as your garsp of the law is not great I will try and educate you somewhat.

    It is not up to Garfield to take Frazer to court, it is up to Frazer to sue Garfield (unlikely) for libel if he believes that what Garfield has wrote is untrue.

    The burden of proof would then be on Garfield to prove his accusation but only on the balance of probalities as that would be a civil case.

    The old maxim of "He who attests must prove" is the order of the day.

    That said as Garfield has already alluded to he has more than enough evidence to prove this.

    I would also have no problem in furnishing Garfield with a few other pieces of information that he would find usefull.

    You suggestion that Garfield could challenge Frazer in a court of law is laughable as Garfield can not challenge him untill Frazer commences proceedings.

    Perhaps you should stick to the social work.

  43. Chris,
    your post isn’t totally clear to me so just to be clear:

    I am not making any "accusation" about Frazer, this is what the head of the Northern Ireland Police service said in a court of law to stop Frazer getting a gun licence.

    I will gladly provide Andrew (or David for that matter) with the full court transcript if he so requests it.

  44. Chris,

    Andrew was responding (10:39 a.m.) not to Garfield but to me (10:34 a.m.).
    But It’s a pity you and Garfield and others pointed out the facts, as he would otherwise probably have sent my first comment to WF’s solicitors, as he once sent another of my comments to Wm McCrea for a legal response after I’d accused that gent of more or less the same thing.
    I was looking forward to receiving the solicitor’s letter.
    You see, I collect stamps.

  45. Sorry Garfield

    That said you should know that for the purposes of libel law when you repeat what somebody else says it is treated as an accusation on your behalf as well.

    It is there to stop newspapers printing lies and then claiming that they were only printing what someone said.

    The seminal case is Reynolds (Albert) v. Times Newspapers Limited and Others

    That said truth is a full defence 😉

  46. LOL Cunningham

    Good hunting! 😉

  47. <Q>BUT NOTHING!! – this is where I differ from yourself and McCann. You either condemn these terrorist activities outright with no caveats or you don’t and, in your case, you don’t. Neither does Frazer.

    Please don’t misrepresent me Billy.

    I have consistently condemned ALL murders.

    Now PLEASE justify your claim that there were "hundreds of innocent catholics" killed in S Armagh."
    and please explain why the deaths of innocent protestants on S Armagh count for less.

    Do you deny that many of the Catholics killed in S Armagh were killed by republicans ?

    I’m addressing specifically your claim that Hundreds of innocent catholics were murdered in S Armagh and your implication that they were killed by Prods and that somehow Frazer bears some blame for that.

    You made the claim – justify it or admit you were playing games.

  48. Madradin

    What are you talking about?

    Can you please point out where I denied that "Republican" terrorists had murdered Catholics in South Armagh. You can’t because I didn’t say that as they clearly were involved in such murders.

    On the contrary, you seem to be trying to put the responsibility for ALL murders of innocent Catholics in South Armagh on "Republican" terrorists. This is a blatent lie.

    Are you claiming that "loyalist" terrorists were NOT responsible for (among others) the following murderous attacks on innocent Catholics in South Armagh.

    Miami Showband
    O’Dowd Brothers
    Reavey family
    Donnelly’s Bar
    Thomas McNamee
    Tullyvanen
    Keady
    McArdles Bar
    Eagle Bar
    Tully’s Bar

    You also claim that I said that the deaths of innocent Protestants in South Armagh counted for nothing. That does not appear in any of my posts as it is not my opinion.

    On the contrary, I believe that the deaths of all innocent people
    count (regardless of religion) and should be condemned UNRESERVEDLY.

    It is not me who thinks that certain deaths don’t count. It certainly appears that Frazer doesn’t think that the murder of innocent Catholics in South Armagh counts for much. If that’s wrong, why doesn’t he condemn "loyalist" terrorists?, why does he think that "loyalist" terrorists should NOT have been jailed. Why do the PSNI think that he has "loyalist" terrorist associates – a view supported by the NI High Court.

    I’m not playing games. I couldn’t possibly be any clearer about my rejection of violence and anyone who supports it.

    It is you who (as usual) is playing games and trying to avoid answering a direct question. Andrew McCann describes Frazer as a "decent and fair man" and presumably you agree.

    If that is true then why did he say that "loyalist" terrorists should not have been jailed and why has he never retracted that statement despite having numerous opportunities to so do.

    I’m afraid that I can’t quite equate someone who purports to be a "decent and fair man" with someone who doesn’t think that terrorists convicted of vile murders of innocent men, women and children should have been put in jail.

    I don’t think you can dispute that Frazer said this (as it was on Radio Ulster). So if you can show that he has retracted or amended this statement and/or show that the PSNI and NI High Court were wrong about his association with "loyalist" terrorists, I will gladly apologise.

    Failing this, I’m afraid that I shall continue to regard Mr Frazer as a bitter man who only condemns terrorism from one side of the sectarian divide.

  49. BillyO – ‘HUNDREDS of Innocent Catholics in South Armagh’. Your claim. Please justify or retract.

  50. Madradin

    I have already listed 10 murderous attacks on Catholics in South Armagh and it took me about 2 minutes to find them on the web. I only looked at the mid 70s and I’ve already found approx 30 fatalities. I’m sure if I included 1976 to 2004, it would add quite a few to that list.

    Frankly I’ve seen this tactic from you before (about the Orange Order not dealing with "loyalist" terrorists in it’s ranks). You can’t answer the question so you simply ignore it and keep repeating the same thing over and over – not very clever.

    Do you think that Frazer is a "fair and decent man"?

    If so, do you agree with him that "loyalist" terrorists should not have been put in jail.

    They are simple questions that require 1 word answers – yes or no.

  51. No Billy – YOU made a claim – that "Hundreds of Innocent catholics" were murdered in S Armagh. You were exaggerating. Admit it.

  52. When we remember the many bodies found trussed and shot on lonely roads in that part of the world, it’s clear that many of the innocent Catholics were killed by guilty Catholics.

  53. Noel – I agree. But apart from Billy’s exaggeration as to the numbers, why else use such loaded phraseology in this context except to imply that the deaths of innocent catholics is somehow a negative for Frazer?

    Dozens of innocent protestants and dozens of innocent RCs died in S Armagh. It’s offensive to single out only the innocent Catholics and exaggerate their numbers in order to smear Frazer.

  54. Come On Madradin – do the decent thing and tell us – Do you believe that Frazer is a decent man?

    You will not address at all the fact that pro -union Paramilitaries killed innocent Catholics in South Armagh??

    Nobody doubts that the IRA et al killed many protestants – and that is condemned by myself and all right thinking people , like every terrorist killing should be.
    But why can you not condemn unionist paramilitary killings??

    And why do you continue to let Frazer off the hook when he is a confirmed terrorist associate and one who has said that a particular bunch of terrorist scum should never have been brought to Justice?

    You really are coming over as a hypocrite.

  55. D4 – separate issues that I WILL address when Billy does the decent thing and admits he was being dishonest.

    <Q>But why can you not condemn unionist paramilitary killings??

    Eh? setting aside the loaded terminology ( Loyalist, not unionist ) I HAVE condemned ALL terrorist murders – and have repeatedly said that ALL terrorists and anybody who conspired with them should be in Jail.
    On this thread I wrote "Any murders, regardless of religion, are to be deplored."

    Please don’t try to disrupt the discussion of Billy’s dishonest claim.

  56. For those confused by the terminology on this thread. A unionist is a unionist until such time as he kills or conspires to kill people. He then automatically ceases to be a unionist and becomes a loyalist.

    The two groups are mutually exclusive and should in no way be considered linked.

  57. Garfield – Loyalists are people like David Ervine.
    unionists are people from the unionist community like David and me who despise them and think they should be in jail.

  58. The IRA are Irish nationalists. Why are the UVF not Ulster unionists? The UVF’s political representatives even call themselves unionists, as in Progressive Unionist Party. So they are unionists. You might as well try and argue that the Pope is not Christian, because he doesn’t represent your chosen branch of Christianity.

  59. <q>Why are the UVF not Ulster unionists?

    Complex question Hugh. There are several means of differentiation between Unionists and Loyalists.

    Some books worth reading :

    Culture and Identity Politics in Northern Ireland
    Máiréad Nic Craith

    Plural Identities-Single Narratives The Case of Northern Ireland by Máiréad Nic Craith

    In Search of Ireland -A Cultural Geography
    Editor : Brian Graham

  60. Madradin,
    not all unionists are as clear cut as yourself and David when it comes to the use of violence.

    We have had Ian Paisley saying he is a unionist but dabbling in Third Force and Ulster Resistance,

    We have had the Ulster Vanguard movement which included people such as Rev. Martin Smyth, David Trimble and UUP leader Reg Empey.

    Vanguard attempted to provide an umbrella organisation for Loyalists and had close links with, and strong support from Loyalist paramilitary groups.

    Hell it even had its own private army, called the Vanguard Service Corps (USC) and its leader Craig pronounced at a rally that "we must build up the dossiers on the men and women who are a menace to this country, because one day, ladies and gentlement, if the politicians fail, it will be our duty to liquidate the enemy".

    I assume you call all these people loyalists. Or are unionists in the extra-judicial liquidation business these days?

    By the way, extra-judicial liquidation is terrorism in my book.

  61. Garfield – are you by any chance trying to save Billy’s face ?

    Let’s deal with the issue at hand and then deal with the interesting points you raise.

    Were there "hundreds of innocent catholics " killed in South Armagh ?

  62. I wish to fuck Madradin Ruad would answer those two simple questions Billy posed, so that we all know where he stands on the Frazer issue. So here they are agin:

    "Do you think that Frazer is a "fair and decent man"?

    "If so, do you agree with him that "loyalist" terrorists should not have been put in jail.

    "They are simple questions that require 1 word answers – yes or no."

  63. Fanny – language please. My answers to Billy’s later questions have no relevance to the validity of his claim that there were hundreds of innocent catholics killed in South Armagh.

  64. Fanny

    At first I thought the first 5 words of your last comment were a blatantly direct expression of lust!

  65. Madradin,
    no, Billy is either out killing people as we speak to to get the numbers to tally or he is wrong.

    It’s just that today is actually the 25th anniversary of Paisley founding his very own paramilitary group, the Third Force.

    Hundreds of men in masks and combat jackets parading about the place. But were they unionist or loyalists? No one could tell because we couldn’t see their faces.

  66. Garfield – there are some cultural geographers who would place the DUP in the Loyalist camp rather than the Unionist camp. It boils down to defining what one means by the terms.

    It’s all quite simple – Billy needs to admit he was exaggerating and we can move on, if he wants, to discuss his questions.

  67. A loyalist is by political definition a unionist. The majority of unionists however are not by moral definition loyalists.

  68. <Q>A loyalist is by political definition a unionist.

    It’s not that simple Colm. Some loyalists favour Independence.

    I don’t know how we stand on copyright, but a snippet from a Brian Graham Lecture :

    " Although the differences are not absolute, loyalists differ from unionists in that their primary identity association is with Ulster (as a culturally and historically vested synonym for the political aridity of ‘Northern Ireland’), while loyalty to Britain and the union is very much a secondary and highly ambivalent relationship. "

  69. "At first I thought the first 5 words of your last comment were a blatantly direct expression of lust!"

    LOL, Colm

    Madradin, so by your silence I can take it that you believe loyalist terrorists and murderers should not have been jailed. I’m glad we got that sorted.

  70. <Q>Madradin, so by your silence I can take it that you believe loyalist terrorists and murderers should not have been jailed. I’m glad we got that sorted.

    You can take what you like. I’m not worried about how I’m perceived by a foul-mouthed and extremely stupid harridan 🙂

    ( <Q from me > I HAVE condemned ALL terrorist murders – and have repeatedly said that ALL terrorists and anybody who conspired with them should be in Jail.
    On this thread I wrote "Any murders, regardless of religion, are to be deplored.")

  71. "You can take what you like. I’m not worried about how I’m perceived by a foul-mouthed and extremely stupid harridan :)"

    Oh, and who might that be?

  72. that you have to ask proves your extreme stupidity Fanny LOL

  73. Well, do tell.

  74. Fanny/Mad

    You 2 are beginning to sound as if you will end up falling in to bed with each other 🙂

  75. Colm, no doubt MD will have something insulting to say about that. Me, I decline to continue debating with somebody who stoops to personal and unfounded insults in lieu of argument.

    I believe David Vance has some new guidelines governing such behaviour. It is of course up to him to enforce them.

    Over and out.

  76. LOL – this from the person who was F’ing and blinding 🙂

  77. Colm – I have clearly stated my position on terrorists and murderers. They should be in Jail. All of them. I take a dim view of a foul-mouthed troll misrepresenting me as a terrorist sympathiser.

  78. I wondered how long it would be before the Brendan Behan of South Armagh (Gaskin) raised his head. Coming from me to a person such as himself, ANYTHING should be construed as a compliment.

    Actually, my grasp of law is quite sound. I appreciate it is up to Frazer to take those who accuse him of terrorist links to court. I also appreciate it is up to the likes of Adams and McGuinness who take those who accuse them of murders, tortures and their prominent role in the IRA to court also. I wonder why they haven’t done that, Chris old chap?

    My line still stands. The vast majority of the people of that area are Provo-loving/supporting scumbags. And rather than the UK State giving away land that is rightfully part of the Union, a few Israeli tactics about the movement of seditious people should have been enacted in the past.

  79. <i>I appreciate it is up to Frazer to take those who accuse him of terrorist links to court. I also appreciate it is up to the likes of Adams and McGuinness who take those who accuse them of murders, tortures and their prominent role in the IRA to court also. I wonder why they haven’t done that, Chris old chap?</i>

    That logic can be applied to both sides so. Is that the point your making. Im confused.

  80. Andrew: I presume that the folks you refer to as "scumbags" in your comment are to be deemed British citizens. If so, aren’t they entitled to the protection of British law despite the fact that their alleged opinions may be radically different from your own? Surely if NI and its people are to be part of Britain, then the citizens there are entitled to the benefit of its laws. To assign them a separate and distinct legal identity is to acknowledge that they should be separate and distinct -hardly a unionist position at all.

  81. "Actually, my grasp of law is quite sound."

    LOL!!!! Brilliant!

    We all know you are an expert on international law, Andrew (snigger) but are you now holding yourself out as an expert on libel?

  82. ‘I presume that the folks you refer to as "scumbags" in your comment are to be deemed British citizens.’

    Why should those who repudiate by force, or support of force, the legitimacy of the State be afforded its protections? I’m not assigning them anything. I just want them the hell out my country.

    Thank you, Reg, the bigger expert in interesting rejoinders (bigger snigger).

  83. Hey, it’s me again and I want to re-inforce the rule that no abusive langauge is wanted – the guilty know what they’ve written. Now don’t waste my time having to come here and keep reminding you…I value all your comments but a little more delicacy is required…please help keep the site clean. Cheers.

  84. Andrew, you would have gone down well in the former Communist East Germany. They also regularly use to dump uncomfortable citizens at the border and tell them to start walking (into West Germany) or else!

  85. Would to God that Republicans and loyalists had only exiled people rather than taking them to remote areas and leaving them dead in ditches

  86. Andrew: If you are serious, the rights of a defendant are a hallmark of democracy. Even if an area of the population is hostile to the state, the greatness of that state is measured by how it treat those in dissent. If you so value British Law you should not want to see it removed or suspended.

    The civilized need not abandon civilization to deal with transgressors.

    In fairness, while I am sure there are those in South Armagh who have no love for their fellow man, the same could be said of areas in other parts of NI on the other end of the political spectrum. In any event, in dealing with those who commit violent acts, the strongest response is a legal one.

  87. More damning evidence of collusion in S. Armagh on the UTV website today.

    http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=77724

  88. Cunningham,

    I’m shocked, shocked I say at this revelation by this gifted impartial academic,

  89. Must agree David. Anything linked to the Pat Finucane Centre ? Forget it.

    More relevant – S Armagh today :

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/11/07/story284195.html

  90. No Madradin
    Wish to God the war had been WON by one side or the other, then we wouldn’t have half the people in norn iron walking aroud half-MAD.
    Your name suits you!

  91. I won’t dignify you with an answer Parcifal.

  92. Its Sir Percy to you, and you did answer.

  93. Et O ces voix d’enfants, chantant dans la coupole!

  94. I don’t have the Gaelic Noel 😉

  95. true, you can barely speak English 😉

  96. LOL – there’s no doubt that that’s the real Chris Gaskin 😉

  97. LOL 😉

  98. Andrew,
    I dug out the letter from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, dated June 2, 2003, outlining why his Police Chief constable refused Willie Frazer the right to a personal weapon:

    "You are unfit to have firearms and ammunition as the police have intelligence from a reliable source to indicate that you have recently associated with loyalist terrorist organisations."

    Seems pretty clear to me. There it is in black and white.

  99. garfield – could the same not be said of the US Government, the UK Government, The Government of the ROI via various channels including the McAleeses, the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian church etc etc ?

    And "associating with" is a damned sight better than being a terrorist – we had Martin McGuinness destroying our children’s education.

  100. ‘More relevant – S Armagh today’

    Is Foley in South Armagh? I would have classed it as mid-Armagh, seeing as it’s north of Keady.

  101. Madradin,
    "could the same not be said of the US Government, the UK Government, The Government of the ROI via various channels including the McAleeses, the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian church etc etc ?"

    No. The police stated that the alleged associations did not arise out of Frazer’s work with FAIR and "could not be described as legitimate". They also stated the source was reliable.

    Andrew considered the claim that Frazer would have anything to do with terrorists as "scurrilous accusations".

    But, in the words of the court, Frazer was "found unfitted for a Firearms Certificate because of paramilitary links".

    The Court felt the Secretary of State could rely on the intelligence forwarded to him by the police.

  102. why are republicans so prepared to talk the word of the British court system when it rules against a prominent unionist agitator and yet will brand it an travesty of foreign oppression when it rules against a republican, there are many instances when terrorist connection rulings have gone against republicans and the movement has branded the justice system as prejudice, hallow and (ultimately) foreign.
    could it be that questions about the legitimacy of the British judicial system are limited only to occasions when it acts in a fashion contrary to nationalists sectarian sensibilities ?

  103. Juan, it’s called "acting on good authority".

  104. super, so you would accept the crowns case agaisnt sean hoey, if its good authority,
    or the outcome of the peter mcbride case, if its good authority,
    we better tell danny morrison he owes lee clegg an apology.

  105. Hugh

    It’s not in South Armagh, doesn’t stop MR wishing it was though.

  106. Hugh and Chris :

    South Armagh, Townland of Foley ….

    http://www.sagp.org/townlandatoz.php

    South Armagh Heritage Audit Project:
    Foley PS

    http://www.rosa.ie/infoPages.php?id=25

    Whoops Chris ? 😉

  107. MR,

    The first link puts Foley in Lisnadill Parish, which is certainly not part of South Armagh.

    The presence of Foley PS in the second link means little either, since Lislea is also included, and Lislea is certainly not part of South Armagh (it’s 3 miles from Armagh city) either.

  108. Hugh – the first link lists all the townlands of S Armagh included in which is Foley…

  109. What difference does it make what part of Armagh it is?
    If it’s a question of the culprits’ political affiliations, I think their choice of Dundalk as escape route leaves little doubt.
    BTW, a lot of commentators in the media are being a bit coy about possible motivation for this attack. Anybody got any ideas?

  110. MR

    I am from South Armagh and Foley is not a part of it. Not a single structure with any relevance to the local community incorporates it as part of South Armagh.

    Not GAA structures

    Not Sinn Féin structures

    Not Council structures

    Stop trying to teach your granny to suck eggs! 😉

  111. MR,

    It lists all the parishes in County Armagh.

    Cunningham,

    The truth will come out in the media in due course, but reliable sources tell me that that it is quite a sensitive story.

  112. "reliable sources tell me that that it is quite a sensitive story."

    I have heard that as well Hugh

    MR

    Parishes don’t follow county boundries. Dromintee Parish extends into North Louth and the Armagh diocece itself entends as far as Drogheda.

    Poor attempt MR! 😉

  113. It was on RTE that the lads in hospital in Dublin with burns are brothers, all cousins of the local SDLP counsellor. Yet there is also talk of a paramilitary connection.

  114. hmmm, were they seen in the vicinty of the Gaskin family Ranch by any chance??? 😉

  115. AE

    What are you trying to imply?