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McCain

By Patrick Van Roy On August 26th, 2018

Senator John Sidney McCain III, served 4 years as a Congressman and 31 years as a United States Senator.  During his time in Congress he epitomized everything that is wrong with the American Political System.

First I would like to give a brief history of his early life.

McCain graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1958 and followed his father and grandfather—both four-star admirals—into the U.S. Navy. He became a naval aviator and flew ground-attack aircraft from aircraft carriers.

He finished 5th from the bottom in his class at Annapolis.

Before I go any further I do want to acknowledge that after his failure on a bombing mission in which he was shot down in Vietnam he was taken Prisoner. McCain’s conduct as an American Serviceman during this time is above reproach. Because of who his family was he could have been released, and could have received special treatment. McCain did neither, he acted with the highest  Honor and deserves nothing but praise for this period of his life.  It’s a shame that this was the only time he deserves praise.

During the course of his flying career with the U.S. Navy, McCain was involved in at least five major mishaps or crashes involving his plane. The most dramatic incidents occurred in 1967.  It is standard policy that if you wreck one plane due to pilot error you lose your Pilot privileges, but when your father and grandfather are 4 star Admirals McCain is proof that rank has it’s privilege.

John McCain was training in his AD-6 Skyraider on an overcast Texas morning in 1960 when he slammed into Corpus Christi Bay and sheared the skin off his plane’s wings.

McCain was “clowning” around in a Skyraider over southern Spain about December 1961 and flew into electrical wires, causing a blackout, according to McCain’s own account as well as those of naval officers and enlistees aboard the carrier Intrepid.

McCain had another accident with a T-2 trainer jet in November 1965, while flying between New York City and Norfolk, Va. The Naval Aviation Safety Center was unable to determine the precise cause of the accident or the degree of pilot error. McCain wrote later that his engine “flamed out” and he had to eject.

After McCain was sent to Vietnam, his plane was destroyed in an explosion on the deck of an aircraft carrier in 1967 that killed 134 sailors and injured 161. Three months later, he was shot down during a bombing mission over Hanoi and taken prisoner.

He was protected, coddled, and given special favor his whole Naval Career. He was a failure as a Pilot and should have never been allowed in a cockpit. I will not elaborate on the damage he caused, the wrecks, injuries, and deaths speak to all that needs to be said.

After retiring from the Military and a few years of rehab and psychotherapy McCain ventured into Politics.

His time in office was spent lining his pockets and promoting himself above all else. He was part of the Keating Five, 4 Democrats and him sold heir influence to stop a regulatory investigation by the Federal Home Loan Bank Board (FHLBB). The FHLBB subsequently backed off taking action against Lincoln Savings and Loan.

Lincoln Savings and Loan collapsed in 1989, at a cost of $3.4 billion to the federal government (taxpayers). Some 23,000 Lincoln bondholders were defrauded and lost their life savings.

At this point in his career after receiving a “reprimand” for his misbehavior and the 1.3 Million Dollar bribe he had received, McCain blamed it all on campaign financing. At this time he went on a holy crusade attacking The exercise of Free Speech. He became a Traitor to his Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. No matter what he did from this point on he always came back to trying to limit peoples free speech in elections because he was caught up in corruption that he blamed the freedom for rather than his own lack of morality.

One of the other disgraces of the mans career was the Gang of 14. The gang of 14 prevented the 109th Congress from ending the modern Unconstitutional practice of the Filibuster for Judges. McCain was a primary organizer of this group to prevent his own party from removing the Judicial Filibuster.

McCain ran for President twice. The first time beaten by GW Bush, the second time he would have lost the nomination to Mitt Romney but made a deal with Mike Huckabee to stay in the race to block Romney from getting the South Carolina delegates which would have given him the best chance to win the nomination.

McCain spent his political career betraying both the people of the United States and his party all for his own self aggrandizement. His last act as a Senator was the perfect  ending and summation of his career. After 7 years of campaigning and promising to end the disaster of Obamacare. The scumbag waited till his vote was the deciding vote and as a last F**k You to the American People he betrayed all those promises and voted against repeal. Once again pissing on everyone for his own fame and bitterness.

Watch his lies….

after all that this is what he did

So as you read and watch the praise lauded onto this man now that he is dead I say it is disgusting to praise a man that spent a Lifetime enriching himself off the American Taxpayer, a man who wallowed in corruption and was a bitter lying scumbag to the end.

Glad to see you go Senator. Thank you for being the ultimate poster boy for Term Limits and giving us 35 years of historical record of everything that needs to be fixed with our elected officials.

262 Responses to “McCain”

  1. Imbecilic and weak post

    But at least Satan’s children work on a Sunday They have a great work ethic

  2. kiss off bubble boy

  3. A bitter lying scumbag to the end

    I find it difficult to believe anything he did could come near to matching the mean spirited bitterness dripping from this post.

  4. ……I do want to acknowledge that after his failure on a bombing mission in which he was shot down in Vietnam he was taken Prisoner. McCain’s conduct as an American Serviceman during this time is above reproach.

    No – I wouldn’t give that to McCain. He was a traitor to POWs too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=37&v=4hr37eE0nO8

  5. And now that I’m looking at the legacy of McCain, I had no idea what a treasonous POS he was. I hope that Hell can handle the evil that has just arrived recently – he’ll say ‘hi’ to Peter Sutherland, no doubt:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=FavCYv0E5OU

    tolme22
    Published on Sep 23, 2008
    In 1992, McCain sparred with Dolores Alfond, the chairwoman of the National Alliance of Families for the Return of America’s Missing Servicemen and Women, calling her a liar and forcing her to near tears during a Committee hearing on POW issues.

    Roadking911
    Roadking911
    1 year ago
    people fail to realize why McCain wanted those hearings shit down. He was protecting himself. He did not want the Vietnamese Government releasing the propaganda films made by him, an Admiral’s son, to the American public. That being said, he was protecting himself primarily, and the Vietnamese Government secondarily. McCain is no hero

    WILLIAM SOWLES
    WILLIAM SOWLES
    1 year ago
    The viciousness of this man knows no bounds.

    greyrabbit711
    greyrabbit711
    1 year ago
    I was deeply saddened when McCain lost in 2000 and 2008. I had always considered him a hero. However, then I read the book “An Enormous Crime.” John McCain is so not who I thought he was. Watching this clip makes me really upset.

  6. I say rejoice, because traitors die too!!

    https://dailystormer.name/dead-john-mccain-memes/

  7. That McCain is being lauded by the establishment press speaks ill of them both.

  8. Call me old fashion but I think Grandma’s Rule applies here.

  9. //After McCain was sent to Vietnam, his plane was destroyed in an explosion on the deck of an aircraft carrier in 1967 that killed 134 sailors and injured 161. …I will not elaborate on the damage he caused, the wrecks, injuries, and deaths speak to all that needs to be said.//

    What, he killed 134 US sailors? – the bastard!

  10. If Lucifer had an IQ of 36 this is the post he would write

  11. Phantom – was McCain a hero to you? Are the links at 9.52pm and 10.04pm of false content?

  12. McCain was a good and important man

    I didn’t read your links

    Won’t get fooled again

  13. Also no mention of surely one of McCain’s biggest political blunders – appointing Sarah Palin as running mate in a presidential election. Or his support for the Iraq war, which certainly didnt help him in 2008 either.

    It’s interesting to speculate what would have happened if he had got the Rep nomination and won the election in 2000. He probably would have gone to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, but may have resisted the neo-con lies and general naivety that caused the latter to be such a disaster.

  14. Allan he didn’t betray his fellow pow’s period. He was a hero.

  15. Sarah Palin is the only reason any of the base voted for him Noel.

    My view of John McCain is shared by more than you care to think. No one else will at this time shout it from the hill tops but I will.

    According to Phantom that makes me evil. Why for being honest. What a twisted view.

    McCain exploited his POW status to get into office and engraitited himself like a king for 35 yrs. He couldn’t even die with dignity as his brain rotted he still spewed bile in press releases from his death bed, but I’m evil.

    The man was scum. And all you goody goody liberals praising this wacko. McCain was the power behind all the illegal arms shipped in syria for the “good” islamic crazies….

    sorry but good riddance.

  16. He probably would have gone to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, but may have resisted the neo-con lies and general naivety that caused the latter to be such a disaster.

    What? The invasion itself was a disaster. If McCain had ever become president then war with Russia wou;d have been a real possibility.

    What happened to the dubious Left, the one which was leary of war? It seems to have gone.

  17. He was going to lose that election no matter what- during an economic crisis presided over by GWB—but choosing the unqualified for any office Palin sealed his fate

    He I believe admitted that it was a major error

  18. a major error that accounted for over 50% of those that turned out to vote for him…. she was the bribe so that the embarrassment of his loss wasn’t 90 to 10.

    I’m the only one here who worked the polls, but what do I know.

  19. She was utterly unqualified for any office

    And you notice that she never ran for any office ever again

    She has been completely exposed, fast

  20. had

  21. Patrick Van Roy, on August 26th, 2018 at 11:45 PM Said:

    Allan he didn’t betray his fellow pow’s period. He was a hero.

    Patrick – McCain was a traitor, especially to the POWs. The POWs and their help-groups lay the evidence on the table at 9.52pm and 10.04pm

  22. Baloney

  23. McCain was not elected to repeal Obamacare, he was elected to repeal and REPLACE Obamacare. He voted his conscience with no replace there could be no repeal. Blame trump as everyone is still waiting for the bigger,better and cheaper health insurance he promised everyone

  24. Yup

  25. Allan@Aberdeen, on August 27th, 2018 at 12:21 AM Said:

    McCain was a traitor, especially to the POWs. The POWs and their help-groups lay the evidence on the table at 9.52pm and 10.04pm

    Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 12:22 AM Said:

    Baloney

    Phantom, on August 26th, 2018 at 11:17 PM Said:

    I didn’t read your links

    Won’t get fooled again

    I just can’t get a handle on this pride in hyper-stupidity

  26. Poor Allan

  27. lets leave the last word to McCain

    This first campaign outing was also when Mr Trump brought up his plan to build a wall on the US southern border.

    Mr McCain swiftly denounced the businessman’s attacks on immigrants, accusing him of “firing up the crazies” with his views.

    That’s what you “crazies” don’t like, his straight talk, he seen u coming
    not fooling him or us one lil bit you big girls blouses you .

  28. McCain enriched himself, betrayed his oath of office and peddled weapons of death worldwide.

  29. the only crazies on this thread are you and Allan jude

  30. My complaints against McCain are legitimate criticisms of acts that he has done. There is no hyperbole in my post.

  31. He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men. He was caught taking bribes, his oath is to uphold and protect the constitution yet he led a 30 year campaign against it and his last act was to piss on the american public out of just shear spite.

    The man was a scumbag.

  32. He married a rich woman

    And they had a great life together

  33. Patrick Van Roy,

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men.

    Was this incident the 1967 USS Forrestal fire?

  34. can’t stop crazy tom, leave you to your insanity and hatred pat
    I’m sure DV would not approve of this thread in any shape or form
    you’ve lowered the site into the shit-hole , gratz

  35. He did not cause that fire

    Pat needs to take his meds

  36. //He did not cause that fire//

    He caused it the same way as an office worker in the Twin Towers caused the buildings to collapse.

  37. Yup

    All these guys are Allan

  38. Phantom,

    He did not cause that fire

    Pat needs to take his meds

    Against my better judgement, I decided to read Patrick’s post and follow up on the worst accusation levelled at John McCain, which is the deaths of 134 sailors.
    I’ve looked at several different sources including Wikipedia and none of them site John McCain is the cause of this accident. The actual cause of the fire was the accidental firing of an Mk-32 Zuni rocket, as a result of an electrical power surge.
    Unless Patrick has good evidence to the country, to make this false accusation would be disgusting beyond belief.

  39. Dave just like all his talking head heroes he just makes baseless accusations strung together with with innuendo and coincidence and then move on to let the gullible to believe the unbelievable

  40. These fake news guys try to trick people constantly. They model themselves on Trump and Alex Jones. You can’t trust anything that they say. They despise the truth and don’t know what reality is

  41. Allan

    John McCain had an extremely strong bond of friendship with the other former POWs until the day he died

    http://time.com/5286085/john-mccain-pow-remembrance/

  42. Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire.

    McCain had already crashed 3 other planes and should never have been allowed in a cockpit on an Aircraft carrier. He was arrogant and incompetent and it got a lot of people killed and a lot of people hurt.

  43. not exactly the same view as mine on the fire, but it shows that even McCains own version differs from others and official facts.

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/investigating-john-mccains-tragedy-at-sea/

  44. //those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.//

    That’s a total lie. The report never mentioned McCain or any “wet-start” as being responsible for the disaster. It was clear from the start that the conflagration was caused by a missile accidently fired from the opposite side of the deck.

    How lost must a soul be to tell such a lie about a man the day after he dies.

  45. Pat, I read that McCain article, written on an obscure blog by some anonymous person, and it offers only un – named sources as verification of their version of what happened, stating that there are differing accounts of what happened but not directly blaming McCain for what happened.
    I have to agree with Noel above, to forward such unsubstantiated allegations of a man so soon after his death is pretty despicable.

  46. These are exactly the same means and methods ( “ research “ ) that Allan has used.

    The USS Forrestal lie Isn’t the only one that is parroted here,

    This post does not contain errors ; It demonstrates a complete hatred for all truth, For the first time either

  47. Not for the first time either

  48. Phantom – at 9.52pm POWs make clear McCain’s treason, in their own words and testimony. At 10.04pm, McCain berates an organiser of a MIA group so as to shut down Congressional efforts to dig deeper into finding MIAs and detained POWs. You don’t need to do any ‘research’: it’s there for you at the click of a mouse. McCain was a dreadful man

  49. Patrick Van Roy

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    The article you’ve linked to does not mention McCain ‘wet-starting’ his plane at all. in fact what it claims is that McCain dropped bombs, for some obscure reason, from his own plane after it was struck by the Zuni rocket. Also the F4 Phantom, supposedly positioned behind him that he was trying to ‘shake up’ was impossible. The rear of his plane was facing the edge of the deck and out to sea. As shown in this image:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CVA-59_fire_aft_deck_plan.png

    Multiple crew on the flight deck, also attest to the fact that they witnessed a rocket fire without warning across the deck, and hit McCain’s plane, (or possibly the plane next to his.) This is not disputed by any reliable source including the one you posted by the way Patrick. The firing of the non-existant Afterburner, is a nasty lie.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire.

    As I mentioned above, multiple Witnesses saw the rocket launch from a plane across the deck, which damaged the fuel tank on McCain’s plane, and/or the plane next to it, spilling fuel and causing the fire. This was a common problem with the Zuni rockets firing system. It was prone to misfire, due to electrical surges and this is documented as happening several times before. There was no wet start. in fact McCain’s plane was incapable of wet starting, as it had no Afterburner, as the quote below points out:

    A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by “wet-starting” – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, A-4 jets flew at subsonic speeds and were not equipped with afterburners. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a “Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A non-afterburning, turbojet engine.” The manufacturer’s description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as “One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine,” with no mention of an afterburner.

    McCain had already crashed 3 other planes and should never have been allowed in a cockpit on an Aircraft carrier. He was arrogant and incompetent and it got a lot of people killed and a lot of people hurt.

    McCain had not already crashed three planes, he’d actually only crashed two, and only one of those crashes was attributed to pilot error. The truth of the matter is, McCain could be reckless behind the controls of an aircraft, and this resulted in two incidents, one of which cause the loss of his plane.

    here’s a link to an article that’s highly critical of McCain during his service as a pilot. It certainly not biased in favour of McCain at all. But it proves beyond reasonable doubt that he was not responsible for the death of his fellow Crewman on the aircraft carrier.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/mccains-plane-crashes/

    There is plenty to criticise John McCain about, he was certainly no angel. He made plenty of mistakes in his life and also engaged in some dodgy illegal practices, but to blame him the death of his crewmen, and label him a coward, based on the evidence of what amounts to no more than conspiracy theory websites, is disgusting beyond belief. Your post is a disgrace Patrick, and it’s the kind of conspiracy theory nonsense I only expected Allan to post.

  50. Your post is a disgrace Patrick, and it’s the kind of conspiracy theory nonsense I only expected Allan to post.

    Dave – what I posted is at 9.52pm and 10.04pm, and it’s testimony from veterans, Congressmen, and hearings in open forum – not one single item that you would consider ‘conspiracy theory’.

  51. Allan

    You and Patrick are a disgrace,

    Your hatreds consume you both, You don’t even try to get the facts right.

  52. Phantom – Congressmen and MIA reps state how McCain blocked investigations and follow-ups into MIAs and POWs thus preventing return of POWs and closure for those who died, now put your emotions away and watch it for yourself.

  53. The memes that Allan links to Are interesting to look at

    You get a glimpse into our mindset Of the dregs of the alt right racist anti Semitic McCain haters

    A Number of them show Putin and Assad, Which leads me to believe that they might be products of Russians

  54. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 12:13 PM Said:

    The memes that Allan links to Are interesting to look at

    The memes are hilarious: the testimonies of Congressmen and representatives of MIAs are definitely not. Why not look at that?

  55. The post fails to mention the time McCain steered the Titanic into an Iceberg, causing so many people, including Leonardo DiCaprio to lose their lives.

  56. And when he paid the Viet Cong to take down the WTC

    Allan and Patrick are going to reveal the FACTS of that soon

  57. Allan@Aberdeen,

    Dave – what I posted is at 9.52pm and 10.04pm, and it’s testimony from veterans, Congressmen, and hearings in open forum – not one single item that you would consider ‘conspiracy theory’.

    Come on Allen, be fair. 95% of the stuff you post, (and I think I’m being overly generous there), is utter bollocks. if I followed all the links you post on here, I’d be spending half my day reading through conspiracy bull****.

  58. Phantom,

    And when he paid the Viet Cong to take down the WTC

    Allan and Patrick are going to reveal the FACTS of that soon

    Hang on there Phantom. I don’t think the Viet Cong took down the World Trade Centre. Patrick has good evidence that John McCain flew past the Towers and used his non-existent Afterburner jetwash to cause the collapse.

  59. lol mahons very dry, like it though,
    am convinced troll posts from sitting on loo all day
    screaming when can’t find the haemorrhoid cream , sure comes across like that

  60. The story about the Forrestal has about 10 different versions. McCains version has changed several times itself and does not match the “official” version.

    I posted Truthdig because it’s a site setup by NYT reporter. I know no matter what source is put up the majority won’t agree you all act like you worship this scumbag.

    What happened on the Forrestal none of us will ever know. I’ve read multiple versions including McCains his behavior after the accident is the most damning. The fact that his father was as important of an Admiral that he was is the only reason McCain ever was allowed to fly again after his FIRST accident.

    No matter how you look at it he lost 5 the only one you can not fault him on and make a case in his defense was the last one when he was shot down.

  61. official” version.

    This guy becomes more like ‘Alan every hour

  62. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 12:06 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Allan

    You and Patrick are a disgrace,

    Your hatreds consume you both, You don’t even try to get the facts right.

    Really bubble boy read my post….. every incident in my post is from the official record. The debate over the Forrestal is one that has been raging since 67 and the survivors have differing stories so why don’t you call them and tell them you the Bubble Boy the God of all knowing have stated the truth and they better accept your version because YOU are the authority.

    My post is very unflattering, but it is factual.

    John McCain finished at the bottom of his class at annapolis, he wrecked 3 planes due to incompetence, the fourth plane was at the center of the Forrestal disaster that killed and injured over 300 men. His family name is the ONLY reason this idiot was allow to keep flying. If he had been treated like every other pilot he would have never been shot down because he would never have been flying.

    His career in politics has been a disgrace and is a perfect example of why we need term limits and his last act as a Senator reveals the true scumbag nature of career and life.

    You don’t have to like the facts, but what is in my post are the facts.

  63. McCain never admitted his responsibility for crashing the Hindenburg. Oh the humanity.

  64. he drove it into the pole…….

  65. I think Pat is perfectly entitled to post his opinions on McCains political career. But that is what they are, opinions not necessarily facts.

  66. What happened on the Forrestal none of us will ever know

    Really Pat? Then why post the article you link to from some obscure internet blog?

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    Can you link to this testimony from the surviving crewmen and the ‘official version?’

    All I can see so far are unamed sources from some burd on the internet.

  67. BTW, those memes above are bitterness, spite and malice psersonified.

    Give a medal to a cancer cell. Yeah, fucking hilarious

  68. An Allan soul and a Kellyanne Conway brain

  69. I posted it Paul to show that there are multiple accounts, I posted that particular link as I said because the site is made up by the writers from the Progressives Bible the NYTs.

  70. The facts of McCain’s conduct are made clear at 9.52pm and 10.04pm. The mental contortions by those who do not want to know are almost as hilarious as the McCain memes

  71. I posted it Paul to show that there are multiple accounts

    So you also concede that the events are disputed Pat?

    My general rule of thumb is that I’m suspicious of any claims that try to verify by quoting ‘unnamed sources’

  72. We can all agree that his comments on how the economy works, what tax should be, what the constitution means etc are all of equal value to this post.

  73. He’s ” just asking questions ” and not accepting ” the official version ”

    At this point we can safely say that there are now two Allans on this site.

  74. McCain never took responsibility for causing Donald Trump’s bone spurs which prevented the President from serving in Vietnam.

  75. So you also concede that the events are disputed Pat?

    I never said there weren’t multiple versions, I also assigned no blame in my post.

    The controversy and debate of the Forrestal has been going on now for 51 years. 5 idiots on a NI blog aren’t going to settle it. Those that state definitively that it didn’t happen have even less credibility. They state categorically that McCain had nothing to do with it which varies from his own account of the incident. In his own book he says 2 bombs were released from his plane, the “official” report says one bomb from a different plane.

    If McCains own version of the story doesn’t match the record who here can speak definitively?

  76. Just asking questions like any other honest man.

    Got it.

  77. that McCain had nothing to do with it which varies from his own account of the incident.

    Not true.

  78. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 2:46 PM Said: Edit Comment
    He’s ” just asking questions ” and not accepting ” the official version ”

    At this point we can safely say that there are now two Allans on this site.

    McCains version doesn’t match the official version, so bubble boy is calling McCain Allan….

    Phantom’s just an ass. I wrote an honest post about the events and acts in the mans life. They are unflattering, because he was a scumbag.

    I listed his accidents as they appear in the “accepted” versions. I did not elaborate on the Forrestal in the post despite what I believe because there are multiple versions.

    Phantom immediately jumped on the post minutes after it was posted called it boring and me Satan. That right there says all that needs to be said.

    I hated McCain yet I did not do a scorched earth post. I kept it above board. I could have been brutal. McCain was a failure as a pilot and an enemy of the people as an elected official. Those are the facts.

  79. I also assigned no blame in my post

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    That seems like assigning blame to me?

    It’s also just one of ‘multiple versions’ of what happened made by ‘nameless sources’ and (alleged) ‘surviving crewmen’

  80. Alternative facts, fueled by blog hatreds.

  81. NO what I said in MY POST was

    After McCain was sent to Vietnam, his plane was destroyed in an explosion on the deck of an aircraft carrier in 1967 that killed 134 sailors and injured 161. Three months later, he was shot down during a bombing mission over Hanoi and taken prisoner.

    Threads aren’t the post. Don’t join the NY liar in foaming at the mouth.

  82. //No matter how you look at it he lost 5//

    //every incident in my post is from the official record. //

    //My post is very unflattering, but it is factual.//

    //he wrecked 3 planes //

    //the fourth plane was at the center of the Forrestal disaster //

    // I also assigned no blame in my post. //

    (but “He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men.”)

    Every single one of those statements is wrong.

    Patrick even contradicts his own bullshit.

  83. He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    Did you POST that above Pat?

  84. McCain never admitted that he never warned the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord that the Britosh were coming, leaving all the work to Paul Revere.

  85. So its OK to libel someone with untrue nonsense in the comments

    Well alrighty then

  86. The Post for you inbreds is the part that appears before the comments…… The part that is on the frontpage….

    My Post is all based on official accounts no embellishments. I even praised his time as a pow. If you people are going to criticize please learn to read.

  87. I’d have to say that McCain is the new Benedict Arnold, or akin to the Rosenbergs or Osama bin Laden even

    Patrick’s well reasoned arguments have convinced us all

  88. I can read perfectly:

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    What you are doing is juvenilely attempting to use etymological sematintics to ascribe that you ‘assigned no blame’ which, as can be seen by my quote above, you clearly did.

  89. Phantom, you can’t libel the dead.

  90. The post was written in a spirit of hatred and ignorance.

  91. and you haven’t made a single counter argument Phantom, you’ve not disputed one thing in my post.

    How many crashes did McCain have?

    What is his version of the Forrestal incident and what is the official version?

    How big was the Bribe he got from Lincoln Savings and Loan?

    Why did he form the Gang of 14?

    Why did he campaign for 7 years against Obamacare but when it came time to end it gave the American People the middle finger?

    You can rant and rave about the Forrestal all you want, but you can’t say definitively what happened, you can’t explain away his corruption in receiving a 1.3 million dollar bribe, you can’t dismiss his multiple betrayals of his party and the american people.

    You’re a loser.

  92. The post and all that follows is filled with hatred fueled error and worse.

    Shame.

  93. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 3:31 PM Said: Edit Comment
    The post was written in a spirit of hatred and ignorance.

    The only ignorance is yours.

  94. What errors are in the post?

  95. What errors are in the post?

    Okay, we’l play your game of infantile semantics.

    The opening POST maybe factual however you later POST this:

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    The ‘300 men’ comment is error writ large and that which follows it is one version of events from (alleged) surviving crewmwn which doesn’t match the official version.

    Do you accept this?

  96. c’mon bubble boy go paragraph by paragraph an point out the errors in my post.

    Put your money where your mouth is…..

  97. The entire post is a nonsense, written in a spirit of hatred

  98. The ‘300 men’ comment is error writ large and that which follows it is one version of events from (alleged) surviving crewmwn which doesn’t match the official version.

    Do you accept this?

    NO
    killed 134 sailors and injured 161…. that’s 295 you want to dispute the 300 number over 5?

    The people who were on the ship dispute the official version, McCain disputes the official version. He has said in his books and in multiple conversations that bombs fell off his plane. The official report says the bombs fell off the plane next to his.

    So was McCain lying or was the Official report Lying?

    If the man himself doesn’t tell a matching story how dare you say I’m wrong because my version doesn’t match it.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  99. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 3:51 PM Said: Edit Comment
    The entire post is a nonsense, written in a spirit of hatred

    so you can’t refute anything….. thought so.

  100. ” the official version ”

    Who on this site uses those words on a regular basis?

  101. Trump just finished the deal with Mexico…. another rewritten trade contract…. Canada’s next.

  102. Phantom, on August 27th, 2018 at 3:59 PM Said: Edit Comment
    ” the official version ”

    Who on this site uses those words on a regular basis?

    So you can’t refute anything….. thought so

  103. and accusing me of conspiracy rhetoric is just lazy bullshit.

    Find me any other post where I refute “the official version”

  104. NO
    killed 134 sailors and injured 161…. that’s 295 you want to dispute the 300 number over 5?

    No, I want to dispute this:

    ‘He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men’ or 295.

    The people who were on the ship dispute the official version

    Who are they? are they ‘unnamed sources, (anonymous) ‘surviving crewmen’ or faceless people on some blog who made it up have they got names?

    You have stated yourself that there are ‘multiple accounts’ and that ‘we may never know what happened’

    Do you accept that your ‘McCain caused the death or injury of 295 crewmen’ is in error?

    If not, conclusively verify the claim.

  105. This is Patrick’s ” controlled demolition ” theory.

  106. John McCain disputed it Paul….

    He says his plane dropped two 500lb bombs into the fire. The report says one 1000lb bomb fell off the plane next to his.

    That’s a dispute with the official version by McCain himself.

    Who’s right McCain or the official report and what are you basing your decision on whether to believe McCain or the Report?

  107. I ‘ll take the official report but still want to dispute your claim that McCain was responsible for the death and injury of 295 people.

    Do you now accept that this was said by you in error?

  108. The story of his failure by getting shot down in combat must be highlighted with those of fellow failures Chuck Yeager, and Medal of Honor recipients Robert Hanson, Thomas McGuire and Richard Bong all of whom were clearly deserving of our contempt for having been shot down during combat missions!

  109. The best part of this thread is the obsession by you all over his failure as a pilot. The real damage McCain did in his life was as an elected official. That is where he became a traitor. He was just a failure as a pilot.

  110. Mahons is there one comment by me on this post about him being a failure for being shot down?

    Is there one comment by me disparaging his time as a pow?

  111. You have terrible memory

    Many times you have mocked him here as a failed pilot for having been shot down

  112. You mean the one at 4:29 or in the post itself where you mention his failed bombing run?

  113. He worships a draft dodger bone spur artist and has always found sneaky or overt ways to mock McCain’s military record.

  114. It was a failed bombing run…. that is a fact.

    Nowhere did I blame him for getting shot down in this post or thread, even though it is my opinion that being shot down does make him a failure. I purposefully didn’t say it yet here you are lying.

  115. Let me try to understand. When you referred to him as a failure prior to the last comment it was because his 23rd mission was a failed bombing run, not because he was shot dow? Although you also consider getting shot down a failure?

  116. The best part of this thread is the obsession by you all over his failure as a pilot.

    The only time have commented on this post was to question the version you give of the incident on the USS Forrestal and your claim that McCain ‘wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men’

    It’s error writ big.

  117. Noel,

    //No matter how you look at it he lost 5//

    //every incident in my post is from the official record. //

    //My post is very unflattering, but it is factual.//

    //he wrecked 3 planes //

    //the fourth plane was at the center of the Forrestal disaster //

    // I also assigned no blame in my post. //

    (but “He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men.”)

    Every single one of those statements is wrong.

    Patrick even contradicts his own bullshit.

    So good it was worth re-quoting Noel

    So tell us Patrick, how many planes did McCain actually lose?

    How did McCain manage to wet-start an aeroplane that was not equipped with an Afterburner?

    How did he manage to tear-up a plane parked behind him when every account, even the one you posted shows his plane was parked at the edge of the deck, with the rear of his plane facing out to sea?

    Nonsense and lies from start to finish.

  118. Patrick Van Roy,

    The best part of this thread is the obsession by you all over his failure as a pilot. The real damage McCain did in his life was as an elected official. That is where he became a traitor. He was just a failure as a pilot.

    Stop trying to move the Goalposts. I addressed the biggest accusation you made against McCain in your hate filled post. Which was that he was that he was responsible for the deaths of over 300 men. It’s been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he had nothing to do with those deaths. you can link to as many conspiracy theory websites as you want, but they have no validity and they’re certainly not factual. All of the reports about this incident, show that a rocket misfired, ruptured a plane’s fuel tank, and the ensuing fire is what caused the deaths of those men.

    Unlike you I’m more than happy to admit that McCain certainly wasn’t an angel. But he never actually killed anybody, (other than the enemy), during his service as a pilot. And the claim otherwise without evidence is a disgusting accusation to make.

  119. no goalposts moved no bouncing around on my end at all

    But over half of you are to brain dead to know the difference between a post and a comment.

    I wrote a basic post filled with facts about why McCain was a scumbag. I didn’t elaborate on any my personal feelings I really didn’t include them in the post at all.

    I kept it decent, well as decent as it could be.

    My personal belief is the the only reason mccain was allowed to fly was because of his family connections he finished at the bottom of his class, he then smashed a plane during training into the water, he flew another into power lines, the third crash no definitive explanation exists.

    Pilots aren’t given that many chances especially when the first crash was during training let alone crashing three.

    I believe the accounts that it was McCain’s wet start that caused the chain of events on the Forrestal his sneaking off the ship is an admission of guilt in my view, but that is my view and debatable so it is not in my post then when he was shot down. Being shot down is a failure no matter how you look at it.

    His Col didn’t say to him todays mission is to go out miss your target and get shot down… you’ll be captured and become a hero. He failed he was an incompetent pilot. He lost 5 Planes and he was no test pilot.

    Then he parleyed his POW status into elected office. As an elected official he took bribes, he went on a 30 year vendetta against the First Amendment (which is why he is a traitor), he undermined his Party and his constituents at every opportunity, he lied repeatedly to get elected and then his last act was to stab the American people in the back and he did it to just screw Trump. Not caring about the millions his vote has caused to suffer. While he laid in bed dying he continued to send out press releases attacking the Head of his party the President. It was important to him that he spit bile even with his last breaths.

    He served 35yrs in Congress he is the poster boy for term limits.

    I have said these things for decades, nothing is new and everyone one of the things that I complain about are proven facts. The Forrestal Fire is blamed on him by the people that were there. Not just me, that may be his bloodiest mistake, but far from his only one.

    John McCain was scum, I’m glad to see him go. He had to carried out feet first and even then wouldn’t relinquish his seat even as his brain rotted to death….

    No I’m right you’re wrong.

  120. The error filled confusion post distracts from the legitimate criticisms that can be made against McCain.

    Such as that he had long been far too quick to intervene in foreign countries.

    Cut from the same cloth as Hillary Clinton, and some Pennsylvanians around here. On that important point, not a dimes worth of difference among all of you.

  121. I asked you once Phantom I’ll ask again, but you’re a liar and you are stupid so you won’t answer go Paragraph by paragraph and explain why what I wrote is in error… put up or admit that you’re just an ass. 😉

  122. I’m not going over that confused dog’s dinner with you.

    Discuss it with your Trumpy playmate Allan.

  123. So you can’t find a single error.

    roflmao…. fraud

  124. Phantom you’re successful in your field, but you’re an idiot in everything else. Grow a set of balls.

    If you are going to call me a liar put up your argument or be the little wimp that you are. A balless man that can’t say anything but I know you are but what am I.

    You lack the intelligence to tie your shoes.

  125. If I’m wrong prove it.

  126. He didn’t lose 5 planes.

  127. He had no involvement in the Forrestal inferno.

    Nice try, though.

  128. It would be fairer to see that he didn’t cause it.

  129. But over half of you are to brain dead to know the difference between a post and a comment.

    Pat, like the word comment the word post is also a verb and a noun. However, it’s largely unimportant as you’re attempting to use infantile pedantry to suggest that you weren’t incorrect.

    The fact of the matter is that it’s irelevant whether you commented in your original post or posted a comment, (see what I did there?), you stated

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    These are your words, yes? They’re wrong.

  130. Mahons, on August 27th, 2018 at 9:46 PM Said: Edit Comment
    He didn’t lose 5 planes.

    learn to count

  131. The fact of the matter is that it’s irelevant whether you commented in your original post or posted a comment,

    your opinion

    These are your words, yes? They’re wrong.

    Prove they are wrong. That argument over which version of events has been going on for 51 years…. go ahead present your proof that I am wrong.

  132. You’ve been crushed and dominated by all the smart people here, and your only ally is bats in the belfry Allan

    If Allan is your only ally, you may want to reconsider your position.

  133. The official statement says differently. McCain was never charged etc

    That’s how you are wrong.

    It seems to be a regular occurrence that you make some hairbrined claim and the challenge others to prove you wrong in a ‘truth isn’t truth’ way. You said you trained to be a judge? Haven’t you heard of the maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit?

    Now, can you disprove this by giving any of the ‘unnamed sources’ or (alleged) ‘surviving crewmwn?’

    My guess is you can’t.

  134. At 109 you indicate it was 4 planes, now you say 5.

  135. Patrick

    It’s not up to us to disprove your claim. (which we’ve already done by the way), It’s up to you to prove it. And you haven’t proved a single thing.
    Provide compelling evidence that McCain was responsible for the fire, that killed 134 sailors.

  136. Phantom,

    You’ve been crushed and dominated by all the smart people here, and your only ally is bats in the belfry Allan

    If Allan is your only ally, you may want to reconsider your position.

    Well said. Allan is his only ally, because Patrick spouting the same unsubstantiated, conspiracy theory bull**** that Allan does.

  137. There is a pattern in right wing blog circles that is unhealthy, and that pattern is not merely being critical of one’side political adversaries but rather pushing a debunked story about them. Hence the birther stories about Obama, the Murder of Vince Foster by the Clinton and the claim McCain was responsible for those men’s death.

  138. It is not to say all right wingers promote all such tales, but they certainly don’t take those who promote them to task.

  139. Mahones technically he didn’t lose the fourth plane,,,, he screwed up and it was destroyed but he wasn’t flying. Over his career he lost 5, but only 4 with him flying.

    Phantom what was I crushed by your logic? your argument against my facts?

    You presented neither.

    Paul I’m not going to do your research for you. If there were no other statements and there were no argument about what happened no one would have been arguing about the cause of the fire for 51yrs, but they have…. unless you are saying this is new and it hasn’t been in dispute.

  140. What hasn’t been credibility established by any source is that MCCAIN was responsible for the fire on that vessel. And the navy performed a full investigation. Also, the Italian incident did not result in a lost plane.

  141. What you people can’t handle is that you can’t argue the facts. Instead you argue personalities.

    Mahones insists the facts presented by the left are the real facts and if you differ from them you lie. He’s a political sheep.

    I didn’t like McCain the reasons are above. I am not alone in my assessment. I may be alone in having the nerve to say it upon his death, but oh well that’s to damn bad.

    You can believe that you’ve won, but you can also believe Hillary didn’t commit any Felonies and Donald Trump “colluded” with Russians… you’re like a bunch of birthers.

    McCain was scum the fact that he is gone is good for the country. Sad of course for friends and family, but none of us are any of those. The world is safer, less corrupt, and less hatefull with him gone.

    That is my view. I feel it justified, and not one of you has presented an argument of why it’s not justified.

  142. Also, the Italian incident did not result in a lost plane.

    The plane went down where it wasn’t supposed too… that’s ca lost plane.

  143. Paul I’m not going to do your research for you

    I’ve done my research, the official investigation says you’re wrong.

    Can you prove that this has been argued over for 51 years Pat? What I’m reading here is the allegations first surfaced during his Presidential bid in 2008 and then were dug up again when he voted against the GOP’s attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act in 2017?

    So go on Pat, prove your claim that this has been ‘argued over for 51 years’ and isn’t some internet slur.

  144. I haven’t characterized the facts as having a political component. The facts are the facts in any discussion.
    You strongly dislike McCain in what is an unhealthy way. Accordingly, you aren’t merely critical of his positions or actions, you’ve distorted his record and make ever more ridiculous comments as you dig a deeper hole for yourself. Lashing out at those who disagree with you. It was not unexpected.

  145. What you people can’t handle is that you can’t argue the facts.

    I’m absolutely arguing the facts. I see no basis whatsoever for this claim:

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

  146. Patrick

    Paul I’m not going to do your research for you

    Oh yes, the standard cry of the conspiracy theorist, who has absolutely no evidence to back up his claims. Once again, you’re making the claims Patrick, so you provide the evidence. Go on, provide compelling evidence that demonstrates John McCain was responsible for the deaths of those sailors on the aircraft carrier.

    We’ve already provided tons of evidence that proves the most of what you posted is total lies. Evidence you haven’t addressed by the way Patrick.

  147. My mistake, I wrote Italian, it was in Spain. He damaged a PowerLine but landed plane safely. It wasn’t lost. He admitted daredevil behavior on that occassion.

  148. The controversy goes back before the the first presidential run. McCains behavior is what brought the whole thing into question. His father was head of Fleet Operations every incident McCain was involved in except his first one were always found to not be his fault.

    He was Naval Royalty and before the investigation of the forrestal was complete he was a POW. There is no way they would pursue blame under those circumstances.

    I’ve despised this man for over 20yrs, I’ve read the accounts both for him and against him, I’ve watched everyone of his self absorbed antics as an elected official my whole adult life and his whole career. The man is the encyclopedia of everything we need to change in how our government works.

    To try and screw with slimeballs like him and to correct the situation is why I’ve always kept my hand politically active.

  149. McCain thoughtfully banned Trump from his funeral. That says much more than words could express. McCain had a sense of decency and therefore despised Trump.

  150. Mahons

    Let me answer Patrick’s question mate.

    McCain crashed two aircraft while piloting them.
    One crash was found to be be McCain’s fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause.
    A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit his plane, or the one next to it.
    A fourth plane was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission.
    A fifth crash is a misinterpretation of an accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft. McCain admitted to causing that incident through daredevil flying. That plane returned safely.

  151. Mahons, on August 27th, 2018 at 11:00 PM Said: Edit Comment
    My mistake, I wrote Italian, it was in Spain. He damaged a PowerLine but landed plane safely. It wasn’t lost. He admitted daredevil behavior on that occassion.

    He damaged his plane mahones and took out powerlines. Even if the plane is repairable it’s an inflight aviation accident. It’s a action that should have been the end of his career, but daddy fixed it.

    It’s a loss the plane did not come back in the shape it left in.

  152. What I’m reading here is the allegations first surfaced during his Presidential bid in 2008

    Apologies, that should have read in 2006 two years before his Presidential bid in 2008.

    Find me a claim before 2006 and prove your allegation that it’s been contested for the lasy 51 years Pat.

  153. The Navy didn’t agree with you, and his father who also served our nation in combat by all indications never personally intervened on behalf of his son.

  154. Paul, Mahons.

    Most of Patrick’s claims about John McCain’s military service just lies and nonsense. He can’t back any of it up.

  155. Patrick

    It’s a loss the plane did not come back in the shape it left in.

    What a totally f****** ridiculous thing to say. You really have embarrassed yourself on this post Patrick. You look like a fool.

  156. This post is a complete disgrace, but not at all surprising considering the author.

  157. No Dave the only embarrassment are people like you, Phantom, Mahons etc etc. John McCain was a vile piece of dung.

    He was an incompetent pilot and a corrupt politician and all you people praise him.

    The facts of his incompetence as a pilot and just a few of his corruption and betrayal as a politician are public record.

    The nation is bettor off with him out of any position of power the fact that it took his death to remove him from power is sad, but a blessing to the world.

  158. an article you should read

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6101807/Todays-online-insults-compared-public-slander-Rome.html

  159. Patrick

    Word of advice. You really should have written this post solely as an opinion piece on McCains political career and left out the unverified speculation on his military service. You are fully entitled to air your views on his public and open political stances but none of us here including you can be certain of the causes of the military accidents that have bogged down this thread.

  160. // McCain’s wet start that caused the chain of events on the Forrestal his sneaking off the ship is an admission of guilt//

    Imagine: to avoid any blame he “sneaks off” the ship. You know, having just been sitting in one of the planes waiting to take off on a bombing mission, the ship would never know he had been there.

    Also, how do you sneak off a ship when it’s in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

  161. Pat, prove your claim that this has been ‘argued over for 51 years’ and isn’t some internet slur. […]

    Find me a claim before 2006 and prove your allegation that it’s been contested for the last 51 years Pat.

    So, as no verification is forthcoming shall we assume it’s just an internet slur?

    How do you sneak off a ship when it’s in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

    I missed that Noel, bizzarre claim. Now you know what lifeboats are for.

  162. Pat from now on i regard you as having learning difficulties as evidenced by this thread.
    You should not be in charge of anything, do take your meds, do go to confession, and please hang up up your spurs
    Grade awarded F ( fail )

  163. The video footage in which McCain’s betrayal of POWs is made very clear by Congressmen just won’t go away

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=37&v=4hr37eE0nO8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=FavCYv0E5OU

  164. Colm, on August 28th, 2018 at 8:43 AM Said: Edit Comment
    Patrick

    Word of advice. You really should have written this post solely as an opinion piece on McCains political career and left out the unverified speculation on his military service. You are fully entitled to air your views on his public and open political stances but none of us here including you can be certain of the causes of the military accidents that have bogged down this thread.

    Colm
    The information in the POST on his Military career is out of official sites. I even state in the POST that I will not discuss or speculate on details about his accidents and I didn’t.

    You people have to learn the difference between Post and Comment.

  165. How do you sneak off a ship when it’s in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

    He got on a Helicopter with a reporter while the ship was still burning and went to Saigon.

  166. You people have to learn the difference between Post and Comment.

    Often the words are both interchangeable.

    No matter, you stated this:

    He wrecked four planes the last caused the death or injury of over 300 men […]

    Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately ‘wet-started’ his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind him.

    That’s what caused the plane behind his rocket to Launch. The ‘wet-start’ tore up the plane behind him and launched the rocket. That rocket hit McCains fuel tank and caused two of the bombs on his plane to fall off and that touched off the explosions and fire

    And this:

    That argument over which version of events has been going on for 51 years

    And failed to validate either claim and now you’re resorting to some childish pedantry beween the meaning of post and comment in a ridiculous attempt to save face.

    Pat, you’re entitled to your viwes, (just as we’re entitled to disprove them). What you’re not entitled to do is present those views as fact and not be challenged on them.

  167. Fact he wrecked 3 planes with him at the controls

    Fact he lost his fourth pane as it was ground zero of the Forrestal Fire

    Fact he was flying the 5th plane when it was shot down.

    Fact the controversy over the Forrestal and the investigation of the fire has raged since day one.

    FACT All these things are public record.

  168. It is in the public record that he wasn’t responsible for the fire. And he didn’t sneak off the ship as there is no indication that he was AWOL or in any dereliction of duty from the fire or its aftermath. In fact he transferred to a new assignment in the short months thereafter which would put him in the combat zone where brave pilots were susceptible to being shot down.

  169. Fact the controversy over the Forrestal and the investigation of the fire has raged since day one

    Pat, as I’ve asked you before:

    Can you prove that this has been argued over for 51 years Pat? What I’m reading here is the allegations first surfaced during his Presidential bid in 2008* and then were dug up again when he voted against the GOP’s attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act in 2017?

    So go on Pat, prove your claim that this has been ‘argued over for 51 years’ and isn’t some internet slur.

    *Later ammended to ¡Apologies, that should have read in 2006 two years before his Presidential bid in 2008′

    Find me a claim before 2006 and prove your allegation that it’s been contested for the last 51 years.

    The floor’s yours Pat.

  170. Patrick Van Roy,

    Fact he wrecked 3 planes with him at the controls

    Actual facts:
    One plane was destroyed through his own fault.
    He had to eject from another plane because of engine failure.
    A third plain WASN’T wrecked. It hit some power lines but return to base safely.
    it appears being able to count, his one of the many things you’re particularly bad at Patrick.

    Fact he lost his fourth pane as it was ground zero of the Forrestal Fire

    Actual facts:
    He didn’t lose his plane at all. The plane was hit by a missile fired from another plane on the deck of an aircraft carrier. McCain was NOT responsible for the loss of this plane. That’s a nasty, outright lie.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/john-mccain-fire-uss-forrestal/

    Fact he was flying the 5th plane when it was shot down.

    Actual facts:
    So let me get this straight. McCain was somehow to blame for being shot down, while risking his life flying a dangerous mission behind Enemy Lines, under substantial anti-aircraft fire.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-hanoi-hilton-prisoner-of-war-truc-bach-lake/

    Fact the controversy over the Forrestal and the investigation of the fire has raged since day one.

    Actual facts:
    It is a complete and outright lie. Whilst they are minor discrepancies in what happened on the aircraft carrier, the official verdict was never in dispute.
    The fabricated story about McCain wet-starting his aircraft, only surfaced in 2008 on a blog post, and resurfaced again in 2017 on a load of pro Trump fake news sites.
    There was never any mention in the original report of McCain wet-starting his aircraft, because it never happened.

    http://archive.is/TSmpY

    FACT All these things are public record.

    They’re not public record at all. That’s more lies.

    For the umpteenth time of asking, you keep making this claim without providing any evidence. PROVIDE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.
    Let’s just look at one of those claims Patrick. Provide credible evidence that shows McCain wet-started his aircraft on the deck of the carrier. if you can’t do that, then it just proves to everybody what they probably already know, which is that you’re a liar.

  171. My, so much of history needs to be rewritten. There were really a lot of careless – if not deliberely evil – pilots at Pearl Harbour in 1941 when they lost literally hundreds of their aircraft.

  172. = if not deliberely evil US pilots

  173. Patrick

    You should have heeded my advice (albeit too late after the event). A wise man once said “Always follow Colm’s advice”. That wise man is never wrong 🙂

  174. My criticism of McCain would include horrendous judgment in the Keating matter, rash selection of a Vice Presidential running mate, and a dismal performance in his personal life in regard to fidelity until he was well into his middle age.

  175. //For the umpteenth time of asking, you keep making this claim //

    Give it up, Dave. Just look at this load of shite and also at Daphne’s links in the “Invasion of Spain” thread, showing how the brave new AltMediaNews was destroyed by one woman.

    These guys don’t even try to write the truth, even knowing (well, David at least can think) that they are going to be caught out in a few minutes. They just forge ahead and write the first thing that comes into their heads that sounds good.

    It’s all about trying to create comforting facts by telling themselves a load of bullshit, presumably as a kind of protection against a world that is increasingly moving beyond their ken.

    This is just the latest example that shows how it’s a complete waste of time debating with them. You can point out their hundreds of daily mistakes as clearly as you like; it won’t stop them combing back with more.

  176. Noel

    Correct.

    As of this post, Patrick has fully joined Allan in being fully delusional and with complete and wanton disregard for facts when it comes to people or groups that he hates. There are multiple, exceptionally severe errors in this thread, and when he is challenged he makes up new ones, or parrots them, as first heard from unknown and obscure blogs.

    Most of us here have a point of view, but we try to be right at all times, and regard being wrong on a matter of fact as being something to be corrected immediately.

    Not so Allanpat. Like their president, like Alex Jones, like Roger Stone, they see lies as being an equal alternative to the truth. They’ll never be embarrassed at being caught out. Truth as a value means nothing at all to them.

  177. It seems like ATW’s far right commentators have a ‘whatever it takes’ approach to truth and fact when it comes to presenting their opinions.

  178. It is so completely stupid.

    Political comment should endeavor to inform or to be persuade.

    This imbecilic nonsense, where every opponent is a James Bond villain / mass murderer, couldn’t persuade a telephone pole in Bozeman Montana. But even a telephone pole has more brains than these guys.

    They’re either brain dead, believing in the nonsense, or nearly as dumb, trying to trick normal people into believing these things.

  179. Screw you Phantom

    You have not put up one argument against any of my assertions against McCain. You just say they are not true, you don’t present an argument against them other than being dismissive.

    Allan posts lunacy, I don’t.

    Every accusation I have put forth are documented by 100s of sources.

    I give Allan credit, he’s a much better debater than you have ever been. He may post Lunacy but he defends his lunacy with reasoned arguments. You could learn a lot about defending what you say from him all you do is insult and dismiss. You never present a reasoned argument and your position 80% of the time it’s laughable.

    You have a history of being ill informed and a Liar. You post your emotions and never back them up with anything.

  180. You’ve been crushed and destroyed by many comments, no real need to pile on.

    There is zero evidence that McCain had anything to do with starting the fire, zero evidence that he flew back with some reporter while the fires raged. Etc etc.

    Presumably he went to Saigon to have a pina colata followed by thai stick when his shipmates burned to death.

    All the burden of proof is on you and you have failed utterly. What you write here is as fake as your president’s assertion that Rafael Cruz murdered JFK.

  181. Mahons,

    My criticism of McCain would include horrendous judgment in the Keating matter, rash selection of a Vice Presidential running mate, and a dismal performance in his personal life in regard to fidelity until he was well into his middle age.

    I agree mate, there’s actually plenty to criticize McCain for. And his hijinks in the air, did result in the loss of one, (possibly two), aircraft and damage to a third. If Patrick had just posted this legitimate criticism McCain, I would have agreed with him. However, I’m not just going to accept his disgusting accusation that McCain was responsible for the deaths of over 130 men, based on literally no evidence whatsoever.
    it’s a disgusting and vindictive lie, and Patrick knows it. Which is why he can’t provide any evidence to back up his claim.

  182. Mahons, on August 28th, 2018 at 3:41 PM Said: Edit Comment
    It is in the public record that he wasn’t responsible for the fire. And he didn’t sneak off the ship as there is no indication that he was AWOL or in any dereliction of duty from the fire or its aftermath. In fact he transferred to a new assignment in the short months thereafter which would put him in the combat zone where brave pilots were susceptible to being shot down.

    McCain’s actions after the fire show a determination to exit the ship as quickly as possible. When New York Times reporter Apple finished gathering his notes on the fire, McCain boarded a helicopter with him and flew to Saigon. Given that fires still burned on the ship and some of his fellow airmen were gravely wounded and dying, McCain’s assertion that he left the carrier for “some welcome R&R” in Saigon has a surreal air. Apple, now dead, said nothing in his news reports about inviting McCain to leave the ship, although he did report talking to him in Saigon later that day. McCain does not mention receiving permission to leave the still-burning ship. Merv Rowland, a commander and chief engineering officer of the Forrestal at the time of the fire, told me that he had not known that McCain left the ship within 30 hours of the fire and that he found this “extraordinary.” Rowland added that only the severely wounded were allowed to leave the ship and that no one, as far as he knew, would have been given permission to fly to Saigon for R&R. McCain’s quick flight off the Forrestal meant that he missed the memorial service for his dead comrades held the following day in the South China Sea.

    Not long after McCain left, the Forrestal set off without him on its somber voyage to Subic Bay in the Philippines, where it would undergo initial repairs. He rejoined the ship a week later when it was docked at Subic Bay. There he gave an official statement and asked for a transfer to the aircraft carrier Oriskany.

    Apple filed two stories about McCain’s time in Saigon. Apple’s first story said: “Today, hours after the fire that ravaged the flight deck and killed so many of his fellow crewmen, commander McCain sat in Saigon and shook his head. ‘It was such a great ship,’ he said.”4 Apple’s second story was filed three months later, just after McCain was shot down over Hanoi. In that story Apple wrote: “It was almost three months ago that the young, prematurely gray Navy pilot was sitting in a villa in Saigon, sipping a Scotch with friends and recalling the holocaust that he had managed to live through. He was John Sydney [sic — spelling is Sidney] McCain, 3rd, a lieutenant commander. The day before, he had watched from the cockpit of his Skyhawk attack plane as flames suddenly engulfed the flight deck of the Forrestal, on which his squadron was based. ‘It’s a difficult thing to say,’ he remarked after a long time. ‘But now that I’ve seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I’m not so sure that I want to drop any more of that stuff on North Vietnam.’ ”5

    The record suggests that after McCain left the burning Forrestal for the greater ease of Saigon, he saw his Navy career as being in jeopardy. Soon, he went to London, where his father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., was stationed as commander in chief of the United States Naval Forces in Europe. Sen. McCain has written little about the fire, and his book does not mention any conversations with his father about bombs dropping from his plane on the Forrestal or his leaving the ship. However, it is difficult to imagine that he did not discuss the tragedy and his own personal difficulties because, by McCain’s own account, his father had intervened on his behalf before. After seeing the admiral in London, McCain went to the French Riviera, where he spent his nights gambling at the Palm Beach Casino.6 McCain’s book skips over the weeks after the Forrestal fire, but Timberg says that the young naval officer spent the months of August and September 1967 “unsure of his status.” Following McCain’s application for a transfer to the Oriskany, his orders were delayed, and in September he returned to his home in Jacksonville, Fla. There, an old friend, Chuck Larson, saw a change in McCain: The pilot was discouraged about his future. McCain confided to Larson that he might have to get out of the Navy because, in the words of the Timberg biography, “his past had become a burden” and “whenever he joined a new outfit he was dismayed that his reputation for mayhem had preceded him.”7 Aside from any questions about his Forrestal actions, McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”8

    NOTE: both a NYTs reporter and McCain Himself state he left the ship.

  183. Of course he left the ship. Noone thinks that he is still on the ship.

    Are you saying that he left the ship without permission? In some inappropriate way?

    What are you cutting and pasting from?

  184. Noel,

    Give it up, Dave. Just look at this load of shite and also at Daphne’s links in the “Invasion of Spain” thread, showing how the brave new AltMediaNews was destroyed by one woman.

    I agree Noel. Patrick has no honesty or integrity. He’ll never admit he’s wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Patrick doesn’t care about the truth, he just cares about reinforcing his own prejudices and lies.
    I haven’t had a chance to read the invasion of Spain thread properly yet, but I’m looking forward to reading it later when I’m having my dinner. I always look forward to Daphne’s posts on ATW. She is one extremely smart and honest lady.

  185. Phantom,

    Of course he left the ship. Noone thinks that he is still on the ship.

    Are you saying that he left the ship without permission? In some inappropriate way?

    What are you cutting and pasting from?

    OH MY GOD! I’M LAUGHING SO MUCH I THINK I MIGHT BURST!!!

    Patricks cutting and pasting from the SAME LINK, I gave him near the start of this thread, in my August 27th, 2018 at 11:49 posting. (Phantom, you really should click on my links more often mate.)
    The SAME ARTICLE that Patrick’s quoting to provide evidence for McCain leaving the ship, (which I don’t deny that he did), is the one that also provide evidence to prove that McCain DIDN’T wet-start his aircraft!

    LOL!!! Patrick is absolutely f****** priceless! LOL! You couldn’t make this stuff up.

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/investigating-john-mccains-tragedy-at-sea/

  186. Dave

    You’re credible. I will look at your links!

    This guy is the best.

  187. Every accusation I have put forth are documented by 100s of sources.

    Okay then,

    Find me a claim before 2006 and prove your allegation that it’s been contested for the last 51 years.

    The floor’s yours Pat.

    As they’re all FACT! ‘public record’ etc it shouldn’t be too difficult?

  188. Patrick

    From Patrick’s 5:42 post:

    McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”

    So now you’re saying McCain lost two planes due to clowning not 3? Bloody hell mate, could you make up your mind how many planes he lost. Is it 5, 4, 3 or 2. You’re all over the place on this thread.
    LOL. Your posts on here are priceless Patrick. It certainly been entertaining.

  189. McCain was the most even man of all time, and also the most incompetent.

    Pity that he didn’t have the competence and moral rectitude of Donald J Trump.

  190. At the time of his capture, McCain had been in the Navy about nine years.

    That’s not a short time.

  191. I also believe that McCain was also responsible for the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster but managed to escape the craft before it exploded.

  192. McCain’s death is a hoax. He is actually providing air support for the Invasion of Spain mentioned by David.

  193. He laughed when the men died

    I know because some unknown Trumped up blogger said so

  194. McCain is still a POW.

    The fake McCain tried to fool everybody, buy they can’t fool us, right guys?

  195. Paul McMahon,

    I also believe that McCain was also responsible for the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster but managed to escape the craft before it exploded.

    Indeed mate. He caused the Challenger disaster by Wet-starting the shuttle’s solid rocket boosters. before parachuting to safety for a quick G&T in a Florida bar.

  196. ahh excuse me other than Paul I am the ONLY person to ever admit when they were wrong on this site.

    And I am not wrong on anything I have said in my Post or my comments on McCain.

    Here is some more information about how scumbag McCain was heavily involved with the IRS and Lois Lerner targeting Conservatives.

    https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-obtains-irs-documents-revealing-mccains-subcommittee-staff-director-urged-irs-to-engage-in-financially-ruinous-targeting/

  197. Come on, others have admitted when you are wrong.

  198. and Dave I read your link, and I researched who was behind the site… (NYT) funny you didn’t defend it when others attacked when I used it earlier as hearsay, but now that you realize I’ve used your link you call it gospel.

    At Least try to be consistent.

  199. Mahons, on August 28th, 2018 at 6:34 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Come on, others have admitted when you are wrong.

    lol

  200. AFAIK Truthdig is not connected to the NY Times and is very lefty.

  201. Patrick Van Roy,

    and Dave I read your link, and I researched who was behind the site… (NYT) funny you didn’t defend it when others attacked when I used it earlier as hearsay, but now that you realize I’ve used your link you call it gospel.

    At Least try to be consistent.

    Come on Patrick play fair mate. I have been consistent. You’ll see from the start of this post that I have criticized McCain for many of the things that he did, including his clowning around whilst piloting aircraft. I’ve never said that all your criticisms and McCain are wrong. Please don’t try and put words in my mouth.

    My main gripe with your post here Patrick, in your criticism of McCain, is that you accuse him of the deaths of over 130 men, which if true would be a horrific thing for him to have done. Which is why it requires compelling evidence to back it up. All I’ve ever asked you to do is provide evidence for that claim. Something you seem incapable of doing.

  202. yes Dave you are pretty consistent, but when I got critisized for using your link you were silent.

    Phantom the majority of the writers at Truthdig are NYTs reporters. I don’t think the paper has any official ties to it other than the fact that it was started by a NYT reporter and they are the majority of it’s contributors.

  203. As for accusing him of the deaths and injuries…. It is my opinion that he caused the events which led to the deaths and injuries.

    He didn’t plan it, but his clowning around was the spark that lit the match.

  204. Truthdig looks way to the left of the NYT

    Can you name some of these NYT reporters who also write for it? I’m not testing you, I don’t read this site

  205. And I am not wrong on anything I have said in my Post or my comments on McCain

    Apart from you saying he was responsible for the death and injury of 295 sailors and that the story that you present has been floating around for fifty one years perhaps not.

  206. //perhaps not.//

    Paul, have you read this thread?

  207. Yeah Noel but I didn’t fancy an whole, elongated explanation so just condensed it to a few salient points.

    As for accusing him of the deaths and injuries…. It is my opinion that he caused the events which led to the deaths and injuries.

    No problem Pat, that’s why I said this earlier:

    Pat, you’re entitled to your viwes, (just as we’re entitled to disprove them). What you’re not entitled to do is present those views as fact and not be challenged on them.

  208. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-vietnam-tributes-us-embassy-hanoi-memorial-pow-north-vietnamese/

    At Truc Bach Lake, which is situated in the middle of modern-day Hanoi, there is a memorial that bears McCain’s name. He told C-SPAN in 1992 he “never understood” why the monument is there. “Why they erected it and the significance it has to them, I have never quite figured out,” he laughed.

    McCain returned to Vietnam a number of times, and has even visited the Hanoi Hilton. He told C-SPAN it isn’t difficult for him to go back.

    “There is no reason for me to hold a grudge or anger,” McCain said. “There’s certainly some individual guards who were very cruel and inflicted a lot of pain on me and others but there’s certainly no sense in me hating the Vietnamese … I hold no ill will toward them

    It is exceptional that some Vietnamese continue to pay tribute to a man who had bombed their capital city.

    They perhaps see through the lens that McCain didn’t start the war, that he didn’t understand the war, and that McCain had suffered greatly, as they had suffered so greatly.

  209. Accurate comment from places where Phantom fears to click

    John McCain has finally ended up in the place he spent his time here on earth trying to recreate. A borderless realm with no strict vetting procedures, keen to include everyone and exclude no-one. That place is Hell.

  210. https://www.nbcnews.com/video/vietnamese-pay-tribute-to-former-pow-john-mccain-1307104323666?v=railb

  211. a bitter scumbag even in death

    Breitbart News has independently confirmed an earlier report in People magazine, which reported that Palin was not sent an invitation, and was told through intermediaries to stay away from the ceremony.

    McCain fundraiser Carla Eudy confirmed to People that Palin had not been invited — possibly, People speculated, at the behest of the McCain family.

    The news comes on the tenth anniversary of the date in 2008 when Palin was announced as McCain’s pick for Vice President.

    Palin now joins President Donald Trump on the list of those barred from the funeral.

  212. LOL pat, he is a scumbag because he won’t let the meat heads turn his funeral into a circus. That BASTARD!

  213. He was correct to disinvite the crackhead crook. Would be the purpose of allowing Trump onto the premises, where he could smirk and talk about himself all day?

    I am sad to see Palin disinvited, though. She was never qualified For the high office that she ran for, but it was McCain who plucked her from obscurity to put her on the ticket, As far as I know, she remained loyal and friendly to him personally. She appears to be handling it with class.

  214. Well just to add a bit of sweetness to what has been a bitter thread, it isn’t it amazing that McCains mother at 106 is alive and well and will be able to attend the ceremonies to say goodbye to her son.

  215. A bitter scumbag even in death

    Eh? McCain was ‘a bitter scumbag’ because Palin wasn’t ‘invited’, (you Yanks sure are weird, ‘inviting’ people to come to funerals to show their respects) to his funeral. The man couldn’t stand the woman in life, why should he indilge her in death?:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2008/nov/05/john-mccain-sarah-palin

    But wait! ‘Who wrote this?’ I hear you ask

    I will not change my view of this man just because he is dying.

    Does that make the writer of the above ‘a bitter scumbag’ as well?

  216. Palin was trouble. She was exposed as completely unprepared as of her first post selection interviews in 2008. It’s hard to run a presidential campaign when you don’t really have a vice president nominee, When you have to deemphasize her and keep her to the side

    But all of these troubles were the direct result of Mr. McCain’s bad choice. She didn’t do anything wrong

    Paul such is the regard that McCain was held that If you didn’t limit the attendance You’d have 10 times more people showing up Then there would be seats. This isn’t the first time where attendance at the service was by invitation, not by a long shot.

  217. Phantom, what do you think of Cynthia Nixon?

  218. I see her as an actress activist who has never run anything , who would worsen NYS problems of high taxes and poor management

    Cuomo is awful, and corrupt to boot, in a very corrupt state, the choices are bad

  219. Paul such is the regard that McCain was held that If you didn’t limit the attendance You’d have 10 times more people showing up Then there would be seats.

    That’s a nice counterpoint to the asperity shown by some here Phantom but have those wishing to show their respects never heard of standing?

    I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve stood outside churches at Republican funerals in Belfast because the interior was full.

  220. The deadbeat anti McCain in life and death element here Is not in any way representative of Arizona or US popular opinion

    Their views on this are completely disgusting, And reveal far more about themselves than they do about the late Senator

  221. As a New Yoika what’s your opinion on these guys Phantom, (I’m speaking about policy and as opposed to electoral success).

    http://workingfamilies.org/issues/

  222. There isn’t enough money in the United States to pay for half the things that these guys propose

    They make Bernie Sanders look like a prudent manager

    NYS and NYC Spend a fortune on public housing and public services, etc but they don’t always spend it wisely

  223. There isn’t enough money in the United States to pay for half the things that these guys propose

    50% of the $700 billion 2018 military budget would cover the price of what they propose multiple times.

  224. And a 100% tax on unicorn production will fund 75% of the bill for self driving rockets that can take us to Tibet on the weekend

    There won’t be a 50% reduction in the military budget.

    Don’t join Patrick and Pete with their utopian extermism.

    There could be a far wiser spending of the NYS $168 billion and the NYC $89 billion budget.

    Let’s do that. Here, on the planet earth.

  225. There won’t be a 50% reduction in the military budget.

    I didn’t say it would, I said it could cover what they propose multiple times in response to your ‘there isn’t enough money in the United States to pay for half the things that these guys propose’

    What about their more local policies regarding rent capping and affordable public housing?

  226. It could cover what they propose multiple times in response to your ‘there isn’t enough money in the United States to pay for half the things that these guys propose’

    I doubt that.

    For starters, these guys know nothing about money or about what the costs of their proposals would add up to

    That’s a discussion for another day. Someone – not them – would have to run the numbers in a credible way.

    And much of the problem in NY housing is caused by the huge mass of existing regulation. Even more regulation is not the answer, at all.

  227. The US military budget is substantial but not unprecedented. It is at 3.1% of GDP, while the world average is at 2.2% of GDP. It is also substantially lower than it used to be. It reached a post-war peak during the Vietnam war (1967) when it was 8.8% of US GDP. In peacetime it has reached peaks of 4.2% (in 1982).

    The US military budget is proportionatly the lowest it has been in modern times. So cutting it even further is going to have costs. Even bringing it down to the world average would only net a little over $200Bn (less than 5% of the total budget). In a country the size of the United States that would not pay for a fraction of the stuff on the Working Families list.

    Additionally cutting it is ludicrously difficult. Every thing is political when it comes to the Defense budget in the US. Budget cuts likely mean job losses as well (military contractors, ordinary soliders, people who live and work in and around military bases in the United States).

  228. The world remains a dangerous place, and a well armed and well trained US military is a very good thing for our nations to have.

    Speak softly and carry a big stick.

    Not an invitation or encouragement of any waste either.

  229. In a country the size of the United States that would not pay for a fraction of the stuff on the Working Families list.

    The US has a population of some 325 million Seamus. You’re telling me that around $500bn wouldn’t pay for the central elements of WFP policies, free third level education and affordable housing? I don’t accept that

    Even more regulation is not the answer, at all.

    So what is the answer to people being priced out of NY neighbourhods where they’ve lived for generations?

  230. In terms of the cost of their programs let’s look at Housing. The US housing crisis, like most places, is caused by underproduction of housing units. Over the last decade America built over 7 million fewer homes than was needed to keep up with population growth. Just this year it is estimated that America will build 900,000 new homes, despite needing 1.3 million new homes to keep up with population growth. So demand is massively outstripping supply, resulting in substantial increases in the cost of housing.

    The only way to resovle that is to build more houses. Now there are things that federal, state and local governments can do in a non-fiscal way to encourage house building (but many of them will come from lowering the building code standards which decreases the cost of building houses but increases the chances of a Grenfell like disaster).

    If it comes purely from fiscal ways to encourage (ie subsidising affordable housing) then the estimated cost in California (where half of the underproduction of housing exists) is nearly $500,000 a unit. In California alone you are talking nearly $1.7 trillion just to address that. Hardly able to do that via the $200 billion you’d get from a deeply unpopular, and difficult, cutting of the military budget.

  231. In terms of climate change, stabilizing levels of greenhouse-gas emissions would require investments of about $13 trillion over the next 15 years. Now about 15% of the C02 emissions occur in the United States so if that $13 trillion is proportionate it will be about $1.9 trillion. If that is the same over every year that is about $130 Billion every year.

  232. In places like Dallas and Houston housing is generally affordable and AFAIK there never has been a housing crisis.

    Maybe NY and CA can learn from Texas on this matter.

  233. Today the United States has over $1.48 trillion of student loan debt. That’s how it currently stands. That isn’t new students. So to wipe it, in it’s entirety, would cost today, a once off payment of $1.48 trillion. And year to year it is roughly about $100 billion.

    So for debt-free higher education, there would need to be a one of cost of $1.48 trillion, and a year to year payment of about $100 billion.

  234. New York is estimated as not being particularly bad on the underproduction bit (only 175,000 units of underproduction over the decade). But California is terrible for it. Flordia was about 720,000 untis short. Arizona was big (500,000 – less than Florida but then a much smaller population as well). 320,000 in New Jersey.

    But yeah Texas had no underproduction. About half the state ins the US had no underproduction (mostly in the South, the rust belt [except for Illinois and Michigan], and the Midwest). Problem areas where the West coast, especially the Sunbelt, and to a lesser extent New England and the Tri-State area.

  235. In matters of housing, Texas would pretty much let landlords and developers do their own thing.

    In NY and CA they are regulated taxed and harassed up the ying yang.

    Wonder why there is no housing crisis in Dallas?

  236. Seamus, I’m not sure where you get your $500,000 a unit in California but according to this the national average of building an apartment is $64,575 – $86,100:

    https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-apartment

    Now, I concede that there are many variables, that the price doesn’t include land aqusition and that some land in California is among the most expensive in the world :

    With mid-range materials, a normal foundation with full basement, efficient doors and windows, all appliances, and “turnkey” finishing would run at an average of $64,575 to $86,100 per unit to complete

    But, even rounding up the upper limit to $90,000 that’s still a considerable difference with you $500,000 per unit and if that’s the national average cost if it’s a federal policy costs should balance out.

    Today the United States has over $1.48 trillion of student loan debt. That’s how it currently stands. That isn’t new students. So to wipe it, in it’s entirety, would cost today, a once off payment of $1.48 trillion. And year to year it is roughly about $100 billion.

    So for debt-free higher education, there would need to be a one of cost of $1.48 trillion, and a year to year payment of about $100 billion.

    No one’s speaking about ‘debt – free’ education. The term that was used was ‘free third level education’. Student loans cover living expenses and tuition fees, my understanding of free third level education is abolition or subsidising of tuition fees. And no where does it say that this policy should be applied retrospectively.

    BTW, this is all hypothesis to Phantom’s ‘there isn’t enough money in the United States to pay for half the things that these guys propose’ The invasion of Iraq had, up until five years ago, cost the US taxpayer some $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans which could grow to $6 trillion over the next four decades:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSBRE92D0PG20130314

    Which no doubt has escalated in the last five years so where there’s a will there’s obviously a financial way.

  237. Wonder why there is no housing crisis in Dallas?

    Phantom, are you saying that it’s NY housing regulations that are pricing residents who’ve lived for generations out of areas like Hell’s Kitchen?

    O/T

    Meanwhile, it seems like Trump’s paranoia and suspicion of the media has spread to other right wingers in the state of Spain:

    https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/08/30/inenglish/1535617627_453906.html

    https://twitter.com/d4veCAT/status/1034876640650833920

  238. There are fancy neighborhoods in Dallas, Houston and Austin also.

    Yet no housing crisis.

    And yes, NYC incredibly complex regulations distort the market in a million ways ( I would wear out ten keyboards writing them all )distort pricing of construction and rentals.

    This isn’t a new issue, it dates back to the second world war. NYC government essentially created the housing problems with rent controls. Which at the end of the day raises prices for working people and allows the well heeled to be deeply subsidized in many cases. I personally know a guy making maybe $500,000 a year who pays maybe $1000 a month in a big rent controlled apartment in Stuyvesant town in Manhattan. He has a second house in Breezy Point, and lives a very nice lifestyle.

    I know of another who has a rent controlled apartment in Bay Ridge Brooklyn but who lives in Florida during the winter months. The Brooklyn apartment is empty during that time.

    There are very many examples like this.

    Because the apartments are so heavily subsidized, no one ever moves out absent a death. Which completely restricts supply. Which raises costs for all the unregulated units.

    It is a clusterfuck and it is all caused by rent controlled policies.

  239. There are ” gentrifying ” neighborhoods in Dallas…would say it better.

    Yet no housing crisis

  240. “Seamus, I’m not sure where you get your $500,000 a unit in California but according to this the national average of building an apartment is $64,575 – $86,100:”

    Again as you said there are national variances and California is more expensive than most places. That national average will include a lot of places where a multitude of things are a lot cheaper. And as is pointed out in the article you linked to it does not include the price of land or the cost of outfitting the interior. So the national average to put up a shell, with no interior whatsoever, is $85,000. So it isn’t weird to suggest that the cost of putting one up in California that is actually liveable would be considerably more.

    I’ll try and find the report I was looking at that suggested that the cost in California would be $500,000 a unit. But again from your own link “A three-story unit of masonry construction with twelve apartments would run roughly $9.4 million in total costs”. 12 Apartments for $9.4 million.

    “national average cost if it’s a federal policy costs should balance out.”

    Except many of the lower cost areas do not have a housing crisis. There is no crisis in many US states. There are in California, New York, Flordia, Michigan, Illinois etc… The more expensive areas. So there would be no balancing out with the lower cost areas.

    “No one’s speaking about ‘debt – free’ education. The term that was used was ‘free third level education’. Student loans cover living expenses and tuition fees, my understanding of free third level education is abolition or subsidising of tuition fees. And no where does it say that this policy should be applied retrospectively.”

    The policy listed on the Working Families website is specifically called ‘Debt-free Higher Education’. So yes that is what people are talking about. And the bulk of student loans in the United states are for tuition, not cost of living while at university. For example in the UK the maintanence loan is about £3,000, while tuition fees are £9,000. In the US tuition fees are outrages. So the overwhelming majority of student debt will be tuition fees.

    “The invasion of Iraq had, up until five years ago, cost the US taxpayer some $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans which could grow to $6 trillion over the next four decades:”

    Over what? A decade? 15 years? And then $6 trillion over 40 years. Even not having that The $7-8 trillion over 50 years would pay for half the stuff on the Working Families website.

  241. *not having that $7-8 trillion over 50 years would not pay for half the stuff…

  242. I would not trust any of the numbers on the Working Families website.

    They know math even less than Trump / Trumpers do.

  243. To be fair to them the don’t even attempt to cost them. It’s just populist nonsense.

  244. Yep

    Free stuff, even more than Bernie.

  245. Because the apartments are so heavily subsidized, no one ever moves out absent a death. Which completely restricts supply. Which raises costs for all the unregulated units.

    So you’re suggesting that rent regulated apartments restrict supply of accomodation which creates a demand for non regulated apartments and drives rent up?

    Wow, how very Pete Moore of you! Perhaps there should be no regulations which would create an even bigger demand and let developers, speculators and landlords charge whatever they wish?

    12 Apartments for $9.4 million

    Indeed, we’re talikng about 50% of the 2018 $700 bn military budget, imagine just how many apartments a $1 bn annual ring fenced part of that could build.

    Except many of the lower cost areas do not have a housing crisis. There is no crisis in many US states

    Good, the money saved not buliding affordable housing in these states would subsidise the more expensive ones.

    The policy listed on the Working Families website is specifically called ‘Debt-free Higher Education’.

    If that’s the case thn I’ll concede that point and say it’s unrealistic. What I was speaking about was free third level education as I explained above.

    Over what? A decade? 15 years?

    Yes, $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits would go a long way to filing the hole and if there’s a shortfall maybe they could plug it with the approximate $3.3 billion that Israel annually recieves from the US.

    As I said, where there’s a will there’s a financial way.

  246. I have to go out guys. I’ll come back to this later if need be.

  247. Yep

    Free stuff, even more than Bernie.

    It’s not ‘free stuff’ Phantom. It’s tax payer’s money paid by tax payers used to benefit peole like working families who pay tax.

  248. I support social benefits but it absolutely is a lot of free stuff for many, based on compelete disregard for budgets.

    And many beneficiaries would not be workers at all.

    Or citizens/legal residents – they absolutely want illegal aliens to get free stuff also.

  249. “Indeed, we’re talikng about 50% of the 2018 $700 bn military budget, imagine just how many apartments a $1 bn annual ring fenced part of that could build.”

    About 450,000 units a year, enough to cover the annual short fall as things stand (which is about 400,000 units a year), without doing anything to address the already present deficits.

    “Yes, $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits would go a long way to filing the hole”

    Except it wouldn’t. That $1.7 trillion was over 15 years. That is about $100 billion a year. $490 billion over 40 years. These figures seem large but when you compare it to the size and budget of the United States we are still talking about relatively small amounts.

    I’m not saying it would do no good but it would barely scratch the surface of what your are proposing. In order to achieve what you and the Working Families are proposing you’d need pre-2007 Greek level public finances. It would either have to paid for by huge deficits which would be long term damaging, or massive increases in revenue which would be both short and long term damaging.

    In order to address the housing crisis in the United States, and only the housing crisis, would likely take that extra $350 billion every year, combined with a $2-3 trillion initial payment.

    You can support helping people but telling people that you can achieve these things is the sort of reckless populism the Orange Duce is rightly attacked over.

  250. They absolutely want illegal aliens to get free stuff also.

    Do they? If illegal aliens are somehow legal enough to pay tax shouldn’t they also be entitled to a return on their investment in spite of their status?

    All I know is that as a taxpayer, if I lived in the US I would expect a damn higher return for my contribution to the system than some ‘Space Force’ and giving billions to Israel etc.

    I really do have to leave now. I’ll come back some time later.

  251. Paul

    No, illegals should not be entitled to any social benefits.

    Illegal means illegal.

  252. And very many illegals pay no income tax at all, unless they’ve done so by stealing someone’s social security number.

  253. //So demand is massively outstripping supply, resulting in substantial increases in the cost of housing.

    The only way to resovle that is to build more houses. //

    Why doesn’t the market sort that one out? There must be a way of building inexpensive housing, smaller units as is Europe, etc. to meet that demand.

    //Budget cuts likely mean job losses as well (military contractors, ordinary soliders, people who live and work in and around military bases in the United States).//

    A lot of that is broken windows, but of course you’re right that military spending is very much linked to the economy in general, employment, and the general sense of security that makes a thriving economy possible.

  254. Government regs and practices in places like NYC and SF serve to drive up the cost of housing in many ways.

    Its a long discussion

  255. “Why doesn’t the market sort that one out? There must be a way of building inexpensive housing, smaller units as is Europe, etc. to meet that demand.”

    Market failure ultimately. And, as Phantom has said, the government massively increase the cost of building houses in many places, as well as, through rent control, lower the reward for doing so. So it is a) more expensive to build and b) less profitable to do so. The risk/reward balance is in favour of not building houses.

    “No, illegals should not be entitled to any social benefits.”

    Though to be fair most immigrants, documented or otherwise, work. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about immigrants in the United States. Lots of cases of Schrödinger’s immigrant. Simultaneously stealing your job while being too lazy to work.

  256. Most Mexican and other immigrants that I see work harder than the white or black Americans I see around me.

    A lot of people aren’t into hard work. Mexicans around me, are.

  257. Old orange wind bag trump’s tarrifs on Canadian soft wood have added an average $9,000.00 to the cost of building new houses and repairing all the storm damaged ones

    All hail the apricot avenger

  258. Soon you won’t hear reports on that type news EP when the USA has it’s own state owned media the official one AT America today . Joint owned with Russia Today.

  259. Fox News/Infowars/RT

  260. Phantom, on August 30th, 2018 at 4:04 PM Said:

    Most Mexican and other immigrants that I see work harder than the white or black Americans I see around me.

    A lot of people aren’t into hard work. Mexicans around me, are.

    Yes – without Mexicans, what would Mexico be……?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/mexico-crime-homicides-violence-up-report

    Homicides in Mexico rose by 16% in the first half of 2018, as the country again broke its own records for violence.

    The interior department said over the weekend there were 15,973 homicides in the first six months of the year, compared with 13,751 killings in the same period in 2017.

    The number is the highest since comparable records began being kept in 1997, including the peak year of Mexico’s drug war in 2011.

    At current levels, the department’s measure would put national homicides at 22 per 100,000 population by the end of the year – near the levels of Brazil and Colombia at 27 per 100,000.

    Bear in mind that Brazil is the template for the ‘mixed-race’ society that the Establishment tells us that orderly white countries must become – something about ending racism…..

  261. The crime gangs in Mexico are funded by Americans and Canadians who buy illegal drugs in Mexico.

    Would you assign any blame to them?

  262. Only if they are brown or black phantom