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Where Mass Murder Isn’t News

By Mahons On November 8th, 2018

Today’s shooting in California resulted in at least 12 deaths according to reports. Like a plane crash in a distant land we hear of it, we watch the usual reports, and we move on. Nothing will be done except the burying of the dead. We are uncomfortably numb.

224 Responses to “Where Mass Murder Isn’t News”

  1. Stand by for the usual broken record ” guns don’t kill people ” ” how about them blacks in Chicago ” and ” pharma pulled the trigger ” comments from the usual suspects.

    Let’s deflect, let’s be argumentative, let’s never talk about why the US has such high rates of gun deaths/murders than does Canada/Europe/Japan, year over year, decade over decade.

    Mass shootings are only a certain portion of the annual carnage.

    Don’t expect more than the usual conversation here.

  2. I posted on it earlier, on your Sessions’ thread when it was breaking Mahons. Jude commented on it and Eddie, who I understand to be from the US, completely ignored it……

  3. Phantom you are the first loon…. it’s the gun it’s the gun…. the guy was a frigging nutcase

  4. Funny so many fewer nutcases in the UK or Canada

    And mass murders are only a part of the larger issue of gun deaths, that you guys never want to discuss

  5. The guy was dressed like he was in the matrix and drove his mothers car to bar…. but it’s the guns fault….. The gun loaded itself forced him to pick it up, forced him to take mommy’s car and go shoot ten christian college students a sheriff and himself…. damn those guns…

  6. Canada · Population, total
    36.29 million

    United Kingdom · Population, total
    65.64 million

    United States · Population, total
    323.13 million

    yeah we just might have more loons

  7. You still don’t know how any numbers work.

    I only ever speak of -rate- not -gross- when discussing these issues.

    Ten or more years later, none of this has ever sunk through the thickest of craniums.

  8. I’ll discuss all the gun deaths you want. The number one gun deaths are suicides…. so 22,000 people a year kill themselves with a gun.

    You believe removing the gun will save these people….?

    That year there were 19,392 suicides by firearm compared to 11,078 homicides by gun.

  9. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

    Firearm death rate per 100,000 persons ( including all murders, accidents, suicides, which is how you look at these things )

    USA 11.96
    Canada 2.05
    UK 0.22

  10. none of this has ever sunk through the thickest of craniums.

    Yeah yours…..

    Guns are a tool.

    There are a lot of crazy and suicidal people in the US and the Democrats shut down all the nut houses because they were cruel…. boo hoo so our loons wander the street.

  11. And the UK has a much lower suicide rate than the US has

    A gun in the house makes suicide much easier and instant than other ways.

  12. The guy was a frigging nutcase

    Was the gun legally held? If so do you think it’s a good idead that a ‘friggin’ nutcase’ can own a gun?

  13. Was the gun legally held?

    Reading reports, yes, apparently it was.

  14. A ‘friggin’ nutcase’ and a legally held gun.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  15. Was the gun legally held? If so do you think it’s a good idead that a ‘friggin’ nutcase’ can own a gun?

    Pennsylvania has Laws that prevent crazy people from owning guns and guns are removed by Law from homes where someone has been put in the mental health system.

  16. Pennsylvania isn’t California.

  17. That’s for damn sure.

  18. ‘Put in the mental health system’ sounds like being sectioned / incarcerated. What about someone who hasn’t been put in the mental health system but is medicated for depression, bi – polarism, schizophrenia etc?

    Are you suggesting that Pen’s gun laws ahould be Federal Law?

  19. Are you suggesting that Pen’s gun laws ahould be Federal Law?

    yes

  20. Interesting.

    What about someone who hasn’t been put in the mental health system but is medicated for depression, bi – polarism, schizophrenia etc?

    ?

  21. Pennsylvania law prevents a person who “has been adjudicated as an incompetent or as a mental defective or who has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution or who has been involuntarily treated as an inpatient or outpatient” from owning a gun.

    The majority of people with mental health issues would not fall into that group.

  22. He’s just been named as a military vet.

  23. There is also no evidence to suggest that the United States has higher incidences of mental health issues in Americans than other countries. 27% Europeans are estimated to have some form of mental health problem in the previous 12 months (ranging from mild to serious). As similar study found 26% of Americas had some form of mental health problem in the previous 12 months (again ranging from mild to serious).

    So America is not filled with crazies, compared to other countries.

    It is filled with guns, compared to other countries.

  24. Yes, compared to most other advanced countries.

  25. The majority of people with mental health issues would not fall into that group.

    That’s a clinical problem.

    What about someone who hasn’t been put in the mental health system but is medicated for depression, bipolarism, schizophrenia etc?

    to many variables. Drugs used for treating mental illness are used for many things and someone that is depressed is not necessarily dangerous.

    Here is a bit for you to chew on… In Pa if you signup for Medical Marijuana you loose your gun rights and they confiscate any firearms in the House.

  26. “Drugs used for treating mental illness are used for many things and someone that is depressed is not necessarily dangerous.”

    I would go as far as to say that the overwhelming majority, the overwhelming majority, of people with mental health issues are not dangerous.

  27. Apprently this guy was an ex-marine with a history of mental illness.

  28. “In Pa if you signup for Medical Marijuana you loose your gun rights and they confiscate any firearms in the House.”

    And the world would be a much better place if the law was: If you sign up for medical marijuana we will confiscate your guns. And if you do not sign up for medical marijuana then we will confiscate your guns.

  29. In Pa if you signup for Medical Marijuana you loose your gun rights and they confiscate any firearms in the House.

    Well that is a completely stupid practice then

    Sounds like the entire thing is a bunch of ad hoc bullshit

    I’ll trust a pot user with a gun over a drunk person with a gun any day of any week

  30. I don’t support gun bans.

    The Canadian approach seems broadly correct.

  31. ABC has reported that Long’s neighbors said he was a veteran of the United States Marine Corps who suffered from PTSD and that they “have no idea what he was doing with a gun”. Police — who said they had prior run-ins with Long

  32. to many variables. Drugs used for treating mental illness are used for many things and someone that is depressed is not necessarily dangerous.

    That’s a no then?

  33. If you use Medical Marijuana you are in violation of Federal Law. Marijuana is a schedule I drug under the Controlled Substance Act passed by the Congress in 1970. A schedule I drug is a dangerous substance that has no recognized medical use and that has a high potential for abuse. In addition to marijuana, heroin, LSD and ecstasy are schedule I substances.

  34. Is that law not unconstitutional though Patrick?

  35. No just because someone is taking an antidepressant or smoking medical marijuana they should not lose their rights.

  36. I meant the Controlled Substance Act. Is that law not unconstitutional?

  37. Seamus, on November 8th, 2018 at 3:30 PM Said:
    Is that law not unconstitutional though Patrick?

    yup

  38. Seamus, on November 8th, 2018 at 3:32 PM Said:
    I meant the Controlled Substance Act. Is that law not unconstitutional?

    nope

  39. Where in the constitution does it give the Federal Government the power to legislate for drugs?

  40. hate the way you think you can excuse this pat by adding on the mental illness bit
    so you can sleep better at night
    screw you pal, in any civilised country the gov’t would come out and say its now illegal to own firearms , you have till the weekend to surrender them, anyone found in possession of a
    gun gets 10 yrs. period. No Bullshit, no discussion.
    please don’t reply cos to me pat, anything you write I’m going type
    FUCK YOU
    have a nice day , leave me out of it ok

  41. The fact that marijuana is subject to Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act along with heroin is medically wrong, completely stupid.

    If PA follows that description, they’re a disgrace also.

    And I say this as one who never uses pot and who would recommend that others don’t use it either.

  42. You went on a blog were people have conversations – and write that you will not be engaging in the conversation?

    What the fuck?

    If you don’t want to talk about it Jude then don’t.

  43. I have no problem with certain substances being banned, but I am not a Libertarian.

    Having Pot still on that list with Heroin and Cocaine is just stupid and stubborn on behalf of the Government.

  44. Hey Jude…..

    take your medication.

  45. No just because someone is taking an antidepressant or smoking medical marijuana they should not lose their rights

    Perhaps if anti psychotic medication had been around at the drafting of the Constitution they would have made it mutually exclusive with gun ownership?

  46. PVR

    Having Pot still on that list with Heroin and Cocaine is just stupid and stubborn on behalf of the Government.

    We agree on that. That pot is subject to the CSA is a monstrous act of medical stupidity, a remnant of an earlier age when well meaning people like Nixon etc thought that all drugs could be bludgeoned away ( except for the drugs that they liked, such as alcohol )

    Libertarianism is generally a dopey Dungeons and Dragons thing that is divorced from the real world. I prefer ” limited government ” as opposed to the alternative.

  47. agreed

  48. I’m generally not in favour of the government banning stuff unless there is a legitimate reason for doing so – that is then applied universally. And if you ban drugs then the same reasoning for banning drugs would then be applied to alcohol, tobacco, a lot of high fat, or high salt, food etc…

    The other factor is whether or not the government banning it will cause more harm than keeping it illegal. Prohibition doesn’t work. It never has. All it does is make criminals rich. If drugs were legalised then it would pull the rug out from under the feet of drug dealers and cartels. It would also result in a far less dangerous product (as drugs are unlikely to be laced with rat poison and other things if they are legal and regulated).

    The cost of drug enforcement is estimated to cost $41 billion a year – in enforcement and incarceration costs. If drugs were taxed at comparative rates to alcohol and tobacco then it would raise $47 billion a year. That’s a $88 billion a year windfall.

    And that doesn’t even take into account the positive impact of not incarcerating hundreds of thousands of primarily young men for non-violent drug offences, and the positive impact of removing the scourge that drug gangs have on communities.

  49. Yes.

    As has been discussed, Portugal decriminalized drugs in 2001 and by all measure it has been a big success

    I would hope that the US would make a major move in that direction in some point. It would probably have to proposed and promoted by a Republican. Trump would actually be the perfect guy to do it, as he by all account has never done drugs, and would be immune to demaogoging the issue by Republicans.

    The recent state moves to legalize pot within the states are positive, but I would like to see something more decisive on a national scale.

  50. happy to discuss seamus,
    but you didn’t make an on topic point to me about the issues around the shooting did you ? try again

    Hey Jude…..

    take your medication.

    FUCK YOU

  51. take your medication.

  52. just a curiosity……

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/07/suicides-spike-monday-mornings-according-new-study-japan/

  53. The latest season of Southpark as a running theme. Were the people of South Park have become totally desensitized to mass shootings and school shootings because they happen so often.
    The horrible thing is, this might actually become fact in the near future.

  54. Reading an updated report, the guy is an ex-Marine, toured Afghanistan, and possibly suffering PTSD.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6366501/Gunman-shoots-dozens-victims-including-police-officer-opens-fire-California-bar.html

  55. 3:27 Harri

  56. Oooops!.

    Thanks Patrick.

  57. 😉

  58. Patrick Van Roy, on November 8th, 2018 at 4:25 PM Said:
    take your medication.

    not on any , take yours u bat shit crazy loon

    oh and

    FUCK YOU ( nearly forgot 🙂

  59. take your medication…… go seek help Jude.

    You come on here act like an asshole and attack me for no reason….

    Like the Old Cheech and Chong joke….

    You used to be all f’d up on Drugs, now you’re all messed up on God.

    either way you’re F’d up……

  60. Jude on the street……

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLtoZOO5B6Y

  61. Very occasional use of obscenity can be good.

    Constant use = not good

  62. Broadly in agreement with that phantom ofc we recall pat hissy fitting it for 4 days protesting re liar accusation.
    I’m over it pat your thinking does nothing to save the next lot of kids gonna get gunned down. That is why you are an asshole.

  63. Jude – I’d appreciate you refraining from further unnecessary obscenities. An occasional humorous use or even a one of justified use may be appropriate but repeated argumentative use is not the level of discourse we are trying for here.

  64. While there are undoubtedly many factors which drove Ian David Long to do what he did I think that having access to the tools to perpetrate such deathly carnage has to be the salient one.

    I also find it incredible that on a thread about a guy murdering twelve people a few hours after the act people are discussing the legalisation of drugs and the appropriateness of swearing.

    ‘Where Mass Murder Isn’t News’ is right.

  65. We can walk and chew gum at the same time

  66. Well, you’ve been doing one or the other for the last three hours.

  67. Mahons,

    Jude – I’d appreciate you refraining from further unnecessary obscenities. An occasional humorous use or even a one of justified use may be appropriate but repeated argumentative use is not the level of discourse we are trying for here

    I find it strange that people get offended over Jude’s language, but seem able to ignore or don’t get offended over the stuff people like Allan post.

  68. Allan has been told what for on multiple occasions by many regulars here.

  69. One could say that a knife has no other purpose than to cut sharply into many forms of substance, with the intention of rending that substance apart with a force that cannot be achieved otherwise.
    Or that motor cars have no other purpose than to travel at great speed along roads, and that their mass coupled with their velocity makes them at all times a lethal weapon if the user chooses to use them as such.
    With guns, you can make the distinction that their primary, indeed sole purpose is for use as a weapon, true. However if you asked people why they might buy or carry a gun, I’m sure that most people wouldn’t reply “so that I can kill random strangers”, but rather “so that I can defend myself if necessary, and hopefully I’ll never need to draw it, but it’s just not good enough to know that when split seconds count the police are only 3 minutes away”.
    I wonder how many innocent lives guns have saved in the USA? Trouble is, something not happening doesn’t usually make the headlines.

  70. brex

    By all means calculate how many innocent lives have been saved by guns in America.

    But don’t only draw conclusions from that.

    Also calculate the number of preventable suicides, heat of the moment shootings, all of it.

    Ask yourself why the US has both a significantly higher suicide rate than the US does, and why the US has more than 30 times the gun death rate that the UK does.

    Review all of that carefully in a spirit of serenity and then begin to draw some conclusions.

  71. Dave – Allan’s ludicrous and vile comments have routinely been deplored by me and others.

  72. I asked for an Alan filter by which all his comments would automatically be erased from my screen but alas it never happened

    Now if I see a post with long block quotes I check the author and just scroll past

  73. Perhaps best to leave suicides out of it, because whether it’s something that one has considered for a long time or a ‘heat of the moment’ thing, one can easily do it with or without guns.

  74. No suicides should be discussed every time.

    It’s easy and instant to kill oneself with a gun lying around the house, a little slower with other means. No possibility of second thoughts.

    Which is why the UK suicide rate is way less

    The Gun Nuts never want to discuss suicide because it exposes a huge flaw in the argument that guns always make you safer. They only want to talk about incidents of heroic mothers blasting a meth head breaking into the house at 2am with a cleaver.

    Always, always include this

  75. More broadly, whenever I hear the mantra “something must be DONE” I always question what I can/should do. One cannot take “the problems of the world” in aggregate and hope to “DOOOO something”. I can’t stop burglary, or fraud, or drug abuse in general, because people are flawed and will always be. What I can try and “Do” is have the means to defend MYSELF or my family, or to talk to my kids about the dangers of this that or the other. I don’t like this “Something must be DONE!” mantra.

  76. Phantom you are totally ignorant on this topic…. you have no clue how many people are saved a day by having a firearm or by someone with a firearm. You don’t even know where to look to find out…..

    Everyday a firearm saves peoples lives you just don’t hear about it.

  77. Maybe do what works best in the real world in some other place

    See where the deaths are least and learn from what those guys do

    How about that?

  78. Brex there is a Show called Cam and Company it’s on M-F. Each day they do a Bad guy story and a Good Guy story involving guns.

  79. PVR

    The numbers are the numbers are the facts

    No one can bullshit their way around them.

  80. …”Make poverty history”, “Tell cancer to get stuffed” and all that nonsense. Why can’t we just get real? There are bad things in the world, and some bad people, and you can’t eradicate that. Rather, be warned, be prepared, do the best you can to defend yourself against these risks. And even when you do that, some bad things will still happen, and no court or policeman can always stop it. Sheesh, let’s try and get real.

  81. sure mahons its not my norm i have a huge vocab no problembo
    but i will say this , your country is diseased with guns, an epidemic with no sign of a cure.
    you need it sorted, its a national disgrace and an embarrassemrnt to the civilized world
    only in america, how many damn times do we ( europeans et al ) have to keep saying this
    sort the thing out NOW . JUST DO IT witout delay as it were an emergency.
    ~then come and tell the rest of us how we should live etc etc

  82. How about we enforce the Laws and lock up the bad guys and improve our mental health system as to not cause more problems…. This wacko was KNOWN to the Cops, he was KNOWN to have PTSD, and he was KNOWN to have access to firearms and nothing was done….. now it’s too late.

    What People like Phantom and others don’t understand is that 99.9% of LEGALLY owned Firearms are never used in a crime or suicide.

    Our 2nd Amendment was designed to guarantee that the civilians right to own and CARRY firearms would never be infringed. That the civilian population would ALWAYS have the means to protect themselves from an OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT.

    Not to Hunt.

  83. Hey Jude….

    Take your Meds.

  84. OK, gun “problem” – extreme solutions: Ban ALL gun ownership (except for the government) and enforce the law thoroughly. Problem is, the government is made up of flawed people just like those ex-gun owners, and governments with guns plus civilians without guns = Tyranny. Proven many times over. Say the wrong thing, have the wrong opinion in such a state, and Bang Bang, you’re dead.
    Other extreme solution: Compulsory carry of guns by all. Same basic problem: some guys are badduns and will try and shoot you to get what they want. Either way, it can’t be made perfect.

  85. Hero of the Day – Missouri: Licensed gun owner helps save metro mom of three from violent attack http://via.fox4kc.com/GncZ0 #NRA #2A #ArmedCitizen (via @fox4kc)

    I can post these everyday

  86. Well spoken about the 2nd Amendment, Patrick.
    Also, the US Constitution is not about the government “granting” people these rights – the rights are affirmed as being INALIENABLE, ie, no government has the power to revoke them, because they never granted them in the first place; the rights were already there.

  87. They’re not inalienable anything

    It’s a pop toy fetish

  88. Wow, I cant believe you said that, Phantom. I’m not even a USA citizen and I respect and admire its Constitution, and you think it’s a joke?

  89. Guns were not even around for most of human history, then once they were invented, they became an ” inalienable right “?

    What a load of hogwash

    The idea cannot stand up to any scrutiny.

  90. If the British are 30 times safer than Americans are, how are their rights being abused by your current laws?

  91. The US Constitution was framed by people who saw what happened when Government acts as a law unto itself, and to protect its citizens against such abuses of power (mainly by us, the Brits!) The founding fathers saw the results of our tyranny and laboured hard to limit the power of the State against future tyrannies. I would give my right arm for my country to have such a Constitution.

  92. That the civilian population would ALWAYS have the means to protect themselves from an OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT.

    only dickheads think like that nowadays, need their meds for sure

  93. And if you became 30 times more likely to die by gun, you’d say ” so what, at least the NRA is happy ”

    What kind of logic is that.

  94. The 2nd Ammendment as an argument is rubbish.

    As I’ve previously stated, all a government need to do against some toy soldier armed militia is contain them in an isloated area and a few hellfire missiles from drones would put their nonsense to bed. AR 15 and 9 mil semis won’t do much good against that.

    I hear a lot of talk about gun owner rights but little about the rights of the twelve people murdered a few hours ago.

  95. Paul

    The Gun Nuts will never consider any fact based arguments based on this.

    But it is amazing that any British person could want any move to US style bad law.

  96. Paul, that’s because “a toy soldier militia” is not an Organised militia, and the US Const speaks of the right to an organised militia.

  97. BTW, I’m doubly proud that the USA has a President who seeks to uphold rather than subvert the Const. right now.

  98. And?

    All a government need to do against some toy soldier armed militia is contain them in an isloated area and a few hellfire missiles from drones would put their nonsense to bed. AR 15 and 9 mil semis won’t do much good against that.

    What practical point are you making?

  99. The reference to an organized militia undermines much of the fake arguments about anyone having the ” right ” to have any weapon anywhere, like the true Gun nuts want.

    On these pages, some time back, some clown spoke of the right to have guns on airplanes. These people exist.

  100. Paul,if you mean me (22:04) then the point I am making is that, OK you are right, the US military could easily overcome any unorganised group of guys with hand weapons. Correct. But the Const affirms the citizens’ right to become adequately organised to resist the state if necessary. Whether they have or have not done so is up to them, but they can. That’s the point.

  101. Phantom, on November 8th, 2018 at 9:46 PM Said:
    They’re not inalienable anything

    It’s a pop toy fetish

    You ought to go live in another country…. your company has offices all over the world… You know nothing of your countries history and have no appreciation of how lucky you are.

    Mans rights come from God…..

    We are the only country based on that reality.

  102. Phantom, on November 8th, 2018 at 9:51 PM Said:
    Guns were not even around for most of human history, then once they were invented, they became an ” inalienable right “?

    What a load of hogwash

    The idea cannot stand up to any scrutiny.

    The ” inalienable right “ is in the ability to protect oneself…. god you’re ignorant.

    If guns weren’t invented we would use swords….. I’m trained with them also…..

  103. Whether they have or have not done so is up to them, but they can. That’s the point.

    So what you’re saying is it’s a ‘right’ for a rights sake that serves no practical purpose?

  104. Wanting to veer back on topic – given that people are bad and that bad things are going to happen and there’s nothing “we” can do to achieve some sort of utopia where crime never happens, then my belief is that the individual needs to have the right to own and carry whatever weapon the outlaws may carry, in order to practise self-defence. That’s my argument in a nutshell.

  105. Yes and if you’re 30 times more likely to get your head blown off that’s a small price to pay to be safe.

    Excellent argument.

  106. The American Military is made up of VOLUNTEERS….. not conscripts, not men and woman in chains…. What makes you think they would back the government over the people?

  107. I will never be 100% safe from having my head blown off, or my stomach stabbed, or being run over. That’s not reality, that’s fantasy.
    However, having lived in TX, I felt FAR safer there than I do in London.

  108. Texas is great, but the US Northeast which has much lower gun ownership, is safer than Texas is, and London / UK is safer than both.

  109. There are over 350 Million LEGAL guns in the hands of Law abiding citizens.

    There are over 200 Million ILLEGAL guns in the hands of the population also….

    Yet there are only 30,000 gun deaths a year 2/3rds of which are suicides. Guns and gun violence is not a problem.

    You have a 1 in 350 Million chance a year in being harmed by yourself or someone else with a firearm…. the numbers are just fine. You have a better chance of being hit by lightning.

  110. Pennsylvania NorthEast State leads the Nation in gun sales every year…. but don’t let facts stand in your way.

  111. That’s not how you calculate anything

    Holy Allah on a Stick

  112. Tx in 2016 had 3353 deaths by firearm…. Pa had 1555.

  113. Phantom when it comes to guns…. you don’t know how to calculate anything.

  114. You don’t calculate by raw numbers if you want to compare anything

  115. It feels far safer knowing that YOU are in charge of your own safety and not the government. Sure, you know that you cannot eliminate all and every instance of danger, but that’s human life. You accept that, rather than have this idiotic veil of some utopia that can be enforced by the state. I don’t want “anything DONE” about it. I’d rather look after myself as best I can, knowing that safety isn’t perfect or absolute.

  116. yeah god forbid we count the bodies……

  117. You shouldn’t worry about just YOU

    Don’t be so self-centered

    You need to think about what everyone else is doing

    Very few want to live in a society, where some jerk is wandering down Main Street with an open carry weapon, for example.

    You are not just an atom in space. Everything is connected

  118. While calling 911 in an emergency has been around for ages, it can take too long from the time an emergency is reported to the time officers arrive on the scene. The average school shooting lasts 12.5 minutes, while the average police response time is 18 minutes.

  119. Very few want to live in a society, where some jerk is wandering down Main Street with an open carry weapon, for example.

    bullshit

  120. What makes you think they would back the government over the people?

    Because they’re also professional, disciplined military. Are you predicting mass revolt and dessertion of the military? What kind of incident would provoke such a thing?

    It’s a ridiculous proposition and an even more ridiculous argument for unfettered gun ownership.

    It feels far safer knowing that YOU are in charge of your own safety and not the government.

    What? you don’t have policeor military in Britain?

    I think that Britain, certainly Ireland and Europe generally are much less violent societies than the US.

  121. Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
    A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

    * Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year — or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

    * Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

    * As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

    * Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of “Guns in America” — a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

    * Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that “only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ‘error rate’ for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high.”[7]

    * Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as “Saturday Night Specials.”

    B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

    * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

    * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.[11]

    * Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission… without paying a fee… or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union — having three times received the “Safest State Award.”[12]

    * Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida’s concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period — thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. [14]

    * Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

    1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

    2. And even the 155 “crimes” committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport. [15]

    C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

    * Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]

    * Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]

    * Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

    * Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

    * Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando’s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation. [19]

    * Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:

    * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that “a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun.” [21]

    * 74% of felons polled agreed that “one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime.”[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that “criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” [23]

  122. I’m not completely self-centred, Phantom, but I do recognise that I am somewhat so. I don’t paint myself under the false illusion of being one of these “save the planet, we should all pay more taxes….errr except me of course” hypocrites. I try and consider other people#s needs when I can, eg I might let someone in front of me at the checkout. What I don’t do is march up and down going “Wah wah wah, end prostitution/poverty” cos that’s just living with a veil over your eyes.

  123. Paul….

    Because they’re also professional, disciplined military. Are you predicting mass revolt and dessertion of the military? What kind of incident would provoke such a thing?

    What kind of incident are you saying would cause the Government to order the Military to kill their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers?

    YOU said the civilian population wouldn’t stand a chance against our military…..

    If the people were ready to invoke the 2nd amendment to overthrow the government our citizen military would be with the people. Not the government, because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..

  124. Another thing I DON’T do is “hey everybody, sponsor me on my fun-filled cake eating event against obesity, because I’m doing it for Chawiteeeee”. No, when I give, I just do a direct debit from my bank without telling anyone about it (er, except now, obviously). I knnd of like Jesus’s advice about the left and right hand not knowing what they’re doing, in that regard.

  125. Brex the antigun wackos want you to wait the 18 minutes for the cops as do the criminals….

  126. Brex the antigun wackos want you to wait the 18 minutes for the cops as do the criminals….

  127. I am ” The people ”

    So said Timothy McVeigh, the Montana Militia and all the usual dregs.

  128. he used a Bomb…… ijit

  129. If gun ownership is an inalienable right then that means taking them off of crazy people is wrong. If gun ownership is an inalienable right then taking them off of criminals is wrong.

    If you can take them off of one group then they are not inalienable rights.

  130. The worst school killing in US history was also a bomb…..

    You can’t stop crazy, but the only way you can stop a bad guy with gun… is a good guy with a gun.

  131. “You can’t stop crazy, but the only way you can stop a bad guy with gun… is a good guy with a gun.”

    Or you can stop the bad guy from getting a gun in the first place. Selective removal doesn’t work. Only total removal.

  132. Seamus, on November 8th, 2018 at 10:53 PM Said:
    If gun ownership is an inalienable right then that means taking them off of crazy people is wrong. If gun ownership is an inalienable right then taking them off of criminals is wrong.

    If you can take them off of one group then they are not inalienable rights.

    No…. nice try… but even god gave us rules and said it was ok to punish the wicked.

  133. The “anti-gun wackos” aren’t really anti-gun, Patrick. They really want YOU to have no gun but the government to have lots of guns. I wonder why that could be?

  134. “No…. nice try… but even god gave us rules and said it was ok to punish the wicked.”

    Yes but that would render the right alienable. If it can be taken away, even if only in certain circumstances, then it renders the right alienable.

    If it is inalienable then it can’t be removed. Ever.

    So gun ownership is not an inalienable right.

  135. Are you also suggesting that people with mental health issues are “wicked”?

  136. Or you can stop the bad guy from getting a gun in the first place. Selective removal doesn’t work. Only total removal.

    Wrong punishment for crimes works. Even if it just removes the threat from the population…

    You have cancer in your pinky…. sorry we’re going to remove both your hands…. just to be safe…. lmao

  137. “They really want YOU to have no gun but the government to have lots of guns.”

    Actually most people who are opposed to guns want guns limited everywhere. Personally I am overwhelmingly supportive of an unarmed police force. Possible in most European countries but not currently in the United States.

    Toss guns, then toss the police guns as well.

  138. I could ask my ex-Polish or Hungarian friends about this (the ones that survived,that is).

  139. “You have cancer in your pinky…. sorry we’re going to remove both your hands…. just to be safe…. lmao”

    Except your argument is – you have cancer. We are going to remove the tumour but not the edges of the tumour (just in case we also hurt health tissue).

    Good luck with that one.

  140. I mean, here in the UK we have just celebrated Guy Fawkes Night (where we stick a crude effigy of a person on a bonfire, and laugh and jeer at the effigy as it goes up in flames). Only this year, you had better be damned careful about whose effigy you put on that bonfire, or else you’ll be arrested for a “hate crime”. Welcome to UK 2018.

  141. The right Seamus is self defense…. the tool of choice is a firearm in America.

    You can dance demons on the heads of pins all you want. Facts are facts. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting shot.

    As I said if guns weren’t invented the people would still have the right to defend themselves, swords are just fine… but we have guns. Lots of guns and less than one percent of the population each year are killed by them 2/3rds of which are self inflicted.

    We will never give up our guns and even if we did the murder and suicide rate would not go down…. because guns aren’t the problem.

  142. “You can dance demons on the heads of pins all you want. Facts are facts. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting shot.”

    And if there were a lot more lightning strikes in America than everywhere else you think people would probably look into that as well.

    “We will never give up our guns and even if we did the murder and suicide rate would not go down…. because guns aren’t the problem.”

    Americans are just more homicidal by nature?

  143. Americans are just more homicidal by nature?

    yes

  144. Disgusting and wrong

  145. And mark this, be sure about one thing, it really matters who you put on that effigy because the Law works ONE way only, and you need to know which way is which! Put Margaret Thatcher or Winston Churchill on that bonfire, and you’ll be in line for a Knighthood, almost! No prosecutions, no suggestion of “hate crime” will come your way. But ooooh, choose the wrong “victim” and you may never see the light of day again.

  146. “No prosecutions, no suggestion of “hate crime” will come your way. But ooooh, choose the wrong “victim” and you may never see the light of day again.”

    You any evidence for that load of crap your spewing?

  147. Err, 5 arrests?

  148. “yes”

    Well maybe you should take the weapons that can kill dozens of people off of them. It’s much harder to massacre people with a knife or a sword.

  149. “Err, 5 arrests?”

    Over the burning of an effigy of a tower were over 70 people died. That’s the level of scum you are defending.

    Show me one person arrested for burning an effigy of a politician.

  150. Well maybe you should take the weapons that can kill dozens of people off of them. It’s much harder to massacre people with a knife or a sword.

    nope sorry….. the weapons aren’t the problem.

  151. Are Americans allowed to buy nuclear weapons? Because you know weapons aren’t the problem. A knife, a pistol, a rifle, a nuke. All the same.

  152. Defending? No, merely pointing out the way UK law works right now. Thousands upoin thousands of twitter posts celerbrating Mrs Thatcher’s death – any arrests? No. Some twats doing a bad taste bonfire effigy of Holy Holy Grenfell – no actual crime committed, 5 arrests. QED.

  153. I want to be able to carry a flamethrower and a machine gun down Main Street

    For self defense

  154. “No. Some twats doing a bad taste bonfire effigy of Holy Holy Grenfell – no actual crime committed, 5 arrests.”

    The two are not comparable (and for what it is worth the people celebrating Thatcher’s death are in very poor taste as well).

    Show me one person arrested for burning an effigy of a politician.

  155. “no actual crime committed”

    Also an actual crime maybe was committed. Whether or not it should be a crime is debatable. But it is a crime.

  156. Seamus, on November 8th, 2018 at 11:17 PM Said:
    Are Americans allowed to buy nuclear weapons? Because you know weapons aren’t the problem. A knife, a pistol, a rifle, a nuke. All the same.

    a fools argument…. you can do better.

  157. Also when two people, for example, mocked Lee Rigby (the British soldier murdered by two Islamists) – they were arrested and convicted and imprisoned.

  158. If burning an efffigy of “A” IS a crime but burning an effigy of “B” ISN’T a crime, then “whether or not it should be a crime” IS the whole crux of the debate.

  159. “a fools argument…. you can do better.”

    It isn’t. Is banning people from owning a nuclear weapon not infringing on their right to keep and bear arms? Arms are not defined in the constitution. Now it doesn’t just mean single shot muskets (the arms at the time). So were is the line drawn? Why can’t an American own a nuclear weapon. Is that not his inalienable right.

  160. Phantom, on November 8th, 2018 at 11:19 PM Said:
    I want to be able to carry a flamethrower and a machine gun down Main Street

    For self defense

    Good go for it…. we’ll have you locked up for being insane….. lmao

  161. “If burning an efffigy of “A” IS a crime but burning an effigy of “B” ISN’T a crime, then “whether or not it should be a crime” IS the whole crux of the debate.”

    So I guess you support the Islamic couple who were jailed for mocking Lee Rigby?

  162. Seemingly off-topic, but my point here is, USA, allow the rabid lefties to disarm you and this is the sort of tyranny you’re in for very soon.

  163. Seamus, on November 8th, 2018 at 11:25 PM Said:
    “a fools argument…. you can do better.”

    It isn’t. Is banning people from owning a nuclear weapon not infringing on their right to keep and bear arms? Arms are not defined in the constitution. Now it doesn’t just mean single shot muskets (the arms at the time). So were is the line drawn? Why can’t an American own a nuclear weapon. Is that not his inalienable right.

    This is why those of us that own the over 400 million LEGAL firearms in america laugh at the rest of you…..

  164. Seamus, YES I would support the Islamic couple who were jailed for mockingMt Rigby. I don’t know anything about this, never heard of that case before, but no way should they be jailed for some mere words. OK,no way should they be even in the UK to begin with but that’s another issue.

  165. brexitannia, on November 8th, 2018 at 11:26 PM Said:
    Seemingly off-topic, but my point here is, USA, allow the rabid lefties to disarm you and this is the sort of tyranny you’re in for very soon.

    It will never happen Brex…. they whine and wring their hands but they can never take them and they aren’t willing to die trying.

    Where we are willing to die to keep them.

  166. Gun violence by CRIMINALS is a problem. Gun violence by crazy people is a problem.

    Enforce the Laws against the criminals and tend to the crazy…. that would drop that 1% of Americans killed by guns by more than half.

    Leave us Law abiding citizens alone.

  167. OT

    Gillum and Neilson in Florida want to count hanging chads…..

  168. No, Patrick! Hillary Clinton wants your guns so she can stick them in her back brace to stop the crazy sha-a-a-aking and the falling down flights of stairs. She’s running (or collapsing) again in 2020! It’s all the Russians fault, as we all know.

  169. What kind of incident are you saying would cause the Government to order the Military to kill their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers?

    Except I didn’t say that. I gave a reasoned argument why a militia written about in a document over two hundred years ago wouldn’t and couldn’t stand up to the modern firepower and tactics possessed by the government today. They didn’t have jet fighters or drones two hundred years ago you see.

    YOU said the civilian population wouldn’t stand a chance against our military…..

    They wouldn’t.

    If the people were ready to invoke the 2nd amendment to overthrow the government our citizen military would be with the people. Not the government.

    How do you know? How do you know that the American public much less the American military would be unanimously behind such a move? What makes you think that at least some of the American public wouldn’t consider it treasonous?

    Because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..

    Please give me just one true example of this allegation.

    So you see, the Second Ammendment argument regarding toy soldiers is a fallacy that has no credence in modernity.

    All a government need to do against some toy soldier armed militia is contain them in an isloated area and a few hellfire missiles from drones would put their nonsense to bed. AR 15 and 9 mil semis won’t do much good against that.

    Now tell me Pat, what do you envisage that would provoke mass revolt, dessertion and mutiny from the military?

  170. yes she commissioned an english spy to develop a paper on it and it says she can take our guns…..

  171. nice comment paul
    who looks after the rights of the murdered teenagers
    unanswered so far, the gun nuts to busy quoting ancient tripe

    these laws did not come from god to the jackass on the panel

    would that be evangelicals on the rights of the unborn
    what about the rights of the born?
    usa is a nuthouse, needs sectioning and administered mogadon
    as a suppository every 6 hours !
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrazepam
    good night

  172. Pat your positions are insane
    Karma is running over your dogma and you too blind to see it
    No child is safe with people like you talking outa yer arse.
    They deserve better

  173. Except I didn’t say that. I gave a reasoned argument why a militia written about in a document over two hundred years ago wouldn’t and couldn’t stand up to the modern firepower and tactics possessed by the government today. They didn’t have jet fighters or drones two hundred years ago you see.

    It wasn’t written about Militia…. Militia’s were included because several of the colonies had state militias. It was written as an affirmation that the people would always be free to keep their right to be armed for defense of self and family from all including the state.

    The government had gunships and cannons, the first machine gun was created 10yrs before the revolution American military tactics even then were ahead of the rest of the world. Your lot liked to march and fight in the streets. Our government troops introduced guerilla warfare to the rest of the world…. do you know where we learned it? From the maniacs with bows and arrows that we were still fighting us and anyone not living in an eastern city might have to protect themselves from.

    My nation was raised on the gun. We the people have used them throughout our history against Indians, Land and Cattle Barons, Corrupt regional governments, other invading countries and always constantly in defense against each other.

    After the Nation was settled we warred in our own streets against criminals we still do.

    You don’t need a gun in this country to survive. If you choose to have one the odds are you will never need it.

    In my lifetime I’ve pulled my firearm less than five times and never had to actually fire it. Each time having it saved my life. Now mind you why did I have a firearm ?

    Very simple I lived in one of the top 5 most violent cities in the western world. I chose to live, date, and party for a large portion of my years in the city limits of Philadelphia. I walked the streets of North Philly at night. Look up the crime, murder and drug statistics for that time period.

    Ad to that the inside knowledge of half your family being on the police force. I understand the brutality man is capable of unleashing on his fellow man. If people knew the violence that surrounded them they’d never leave their house.

    When I had kids I moved them to safety, I still have a gun to carry and am fully licensed to do so, but it’s in it’s safe 90% of the time.

    The problem in the united states is drugs and poverty the same as it is everywhere, we just have more of it because we have more of everything.

    Guns are part of my societies fabric and they do far more good than bad. You’ve just not been educated in the good reasons that people should have them. Thank god more americans have than have not.

    Enforce the mandatory sentences, and provide aid and monitoring of the mentally unwell. That’s where the problem exists, not with the guns.

  174. jude, on November 9th, 2018 at 12:10 AM Said:
    Pat your positions are insane
    Karma is running over your dogma and you too blind to see it
    No child is safe with people like you talking outa yer arse.
    They deserve better

    poor Jude

  175. who looks after the rights of the murdered teenagers
    unanswered so far,

    Like those murdered in London on an almost daily basis.

  176. yep its out control Harri,
    no easy answers, what do you suggest ?

  177. 2nd amendment was a reasonable idea back when the const was first drafted because the rule of law was not yet established .. most people can join the dots up to 2018 and reflect on the changes sine then in usa and the implications, others cannot and have no answers to the mass slaughter of innocents, let the blood be on their hands, cos it is, and they will have to answer for it when they meet their maker. i can promise you he’s not happy, the lake of fire awaits. !

  178. yep its out control Harri,
    no easy answers, what do you suggest ?

    Bring back “stop & search”..

    Stop with all this PC madness.

    Caught with knife, serious consequence’s will be bought down on the perps head, no warning, not just confiscate, serious jail time.

    They can put another 2000 police officers on the streets, but its not the police officers doing the stabbings is it?.

    Sack the virtue signalling Mayor Khan with immediate effect.

  179. Tories cut the numbers of police and the budget lacerated since 2010
    the PC bit is a hangover from labour, worth a try, now needs to go the other way
    thing is harri are you in favour of floggin em before hanging em
    or hang em , then flog em ?
    suprise me 😉

  180. I agree with Harri’s 8:06am comment . A relentless stop and search crackdown with guaranteed jail sentences for those caught with knives is needed. No excuses, no mitigation.

  181. jude.

    Flog them or hang them?

    For what crime?

    For carrying a knife on the streets, no first warnings, no “Three strikes and your out” rule, no simple confiscation slap on the wrist. Arrested, and the full weight of the law to be bought down upon their sorry arses.

    And if the Mayor of London, The Ministry of Justice, ACPO, Politicians, Labour or otherwise, or even the Judges, have any problems with at least attempting to keep the streets of London along with the lives of our children safe. Then all of them require instant removal from the lofty gold gilded positions of public office they hold, and they should be replaced by someone who will.

  182. If someone in Great Britain can be imprisoned for non payment of Council Tax, or not paying for a TV licence.

    Then they can be jailed for carrying a deadly weapon.

  183. haha instant removal, harri we’re not in stasi land ( petem paradise )
    there’s an thing annoying thing called elections and people voting
    I know damned nuisance isn’t it .. lol

  184. allan has a side business making jackboots for the march on downing strasse
    so might be an idea to get an early order in ( rediced rates 25% off )
    increased powers as colm agreed, that is the way
    emergency powers another instrument ??

  185. Lets start with Mayor Of London..

    Less virtue signalling, less jaunts across the World at our expense.

    There is a war going on, on the streets of our capital city, children are dying in the most horrendous circumstances, it s getting worse not better, families decimated by grief.

    Less effort virtue signalling across the globe at our expense. stop blaming everyone else. he appears to have got away clean on his heels on just about everything he pledged in his manifesto running up to be vote Mayor of London.

    He was never going to plant 2,000,000 trees, build 100,000 homes, not fleece the motorist going into London, or freeze the train fares.

    But one pledge he shouldn’t get away with is the pledge to “challenge gang culture and knife crime” (whatever that is supposed to mean)

    Well apart from release a few scraps from his rather large £billion relief Mayoral emergency fund. and ban some adverts from the tube stations,, He’s done absolutely bugger all.

  186. Yes, all very interesting I’m sure Pat but what on earth has your 12.37 got to do with:

    A reasoned argument why a militia written about in a document over two hundred years ago wouldn’t and couldn’t stand up to the modern firepower and tactics possessed by the government today. They didn’t have jet fighters or drones two hundred years ago you see.

    The use of the Second Ammendment as an argument for guns is a historical anomaly and has absolutely no value in the present.

    Because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..

    Please give me just one true example of this allegation.

    Can’t do it then? Okay.

    There should be a mandatory ten year sentence for anyone found in non legitimate possession of a knife, no exceptions. As for ‘stop and search’ the details are a bit more nuanced:

    https://fullfact.org/crime/what-happened-violent-crime-london-2008/

    Most males of my age in West Belfast can barely recall a day in the 1980s when we WEREN’T stopped and searched.

  187. Mayor Khan.

    First, he wanted to make London the safest city on earth.

    Second, he wanted to clamp down on stop and searches by the Old Bill because they were racist.

    They targeted black and Asian people, he said.

    Then, just a few weeks ago, the Mayor had to completely change tack and announce police would “significantly increase” these same stop and search powers amidst a rising tide of violence.

    And there you have it. The police say this violence has escalated because they are no longer allowed to stop and search individuals when they think a crime might be about to be committed.

    Being thought of as racist is far worse than a kid being killed, of course. Khan was virtue signalling when he clamped down on the police. And it is leading to death after death.

    Link..

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5976847/rod-liddle-london-mayor-safety/

  188. Lets start with Mayor Of London..

    Okay, lets.

    He’s elected by the residents of London.

    In the absence of moving to London and being eligible to vote for its Mayor what alternative would you propose for filling the LM post? Appointment?

  189. lol
    was wondering when harri would get to his real beef the muslim mayor
    soo funny

    as home secretary I’d send Harri in with a baseball bat
    dressed in the clockwork orange outfit ( underpants outside)
    battle cry “you want some do you ” into troubled neighourhoods
    that is a powerful weapon and should be deployed ..lol

  190. harri, allan, petem and eddie heading to london trouble spots
    ( ps its a joke harri, don’t get all upset ok 🙂

    saviours of london

  191. Jude.

    A bit busy at the moment.

    The only person who mentioned “Muslim” was you.

    If we are a point still it is somehow racist to be critical of someone who just happens to be non-white. Then kids are going to carry on dying.

    Jude.

    At least try to be better than that.

    Paul.

    We could make a start no matter who becomes Mayor, make manifestos legally binding, unless exceptional circumstances can be proven.

  192. Jude.

    I will tell you where a part of the problem arises from.

    Take yourself, a thread about children being murdered daily on our streets, and you feel the need to attempt to make irrelevant wise cracks.

    Well done Jude.

  193. well thanks for clearing that up Harri
    its not that sadiq kkan is a muslim
    its because of his polices, well i stand corrected

    is sajid javid doing a better job? after all he is the home secretary
    perhaps they should work together sadiq and sajid ( to prevent the epidemic in knife crime )
    would you be in favour of that ?

  194. its not that sadiq kkan is a muslim
    its because of his polices, well i stand corrected

    Jude.

    There was absolutely nothing to clear up in the first place.

    The only person who mentioned Muslim, was you.

  195. Jude

    Said David, to date, maybe, he hasn’t done one single radical things yet.

    Khan.

    Nope, beyond d redemption, virtue signalling is his forte.

    Which really is not going to help the children dying on his watch, on his streets, on a daily basis.

  196. Sajid*

  197. well exactly harri, not about race about policy
    though ofc somewhere want them all to go back to their own countries
    dunno if you might have picked that up over your years of reading ATW

    in this case that would be go back to rochdale for the home secretary
    and off to tooting for the london mayor

    lmao 🙂 🙂 🙂

  198. Make manifestos legally binding, unless exceptional circumstances can be proven.

    I was referring to the process of selection H. At present the Mayor of London is democratically voted in by London residents and just can’t be removed because someone disagrees with him.

    What would you suggest as an alternative to the current Mayoral selection process?

  199. What an interesting load of twaddle……. Paul

    Paul McMahon, on November 9th, 2018 at 9:19 AM Said:
    Yes, all very interesting I’m sure Pat but what on earth has your 12.37 got to do with:

    A reasoned argument why a militia written about in a document over two hundred years ago wouldn’t and couldn’t stand up to the modern firepower and tactics possessed by the government today. They didn’t have jet fighters or drones two hundred years ago you see.

    The use of the Second Ammendment as an argument for guns is a historical anomaly and has absolutely no value in the present.

    Because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..

    Please give me just one true example of this allegation.

    Can’t do it then? Okay.

    There should be a mandatory ten year sentence for anyone found in non legitimate possession of a knife, no exceptions. As for ‘stop and search’ the details are a bit more nuanced:

    https://fullfact.org/crime/what-happened-violent-crime-london-2008/

    Most males of my age in West Belfast can barely recall a day in the 1980s when we WEREN’T stopped and searched.

    Your first part… my 12:37 explains what the second amendment is for it has nothing to do with militia, but that is beyond your grasp apparently Militia’s were only mentioned in it primarily because of the Georgia delegates when the document was written. It is about self defense from the GOVERNMENT.

    The Military can not be used against American citizens inside the country PERIOD it is against the Law and yes the majority in the military would revolt before carrying out attacks against their own people.

    Because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..
    Please give me just one true example of this allegation.

    here’s a few……

    February 1974 – Coach carrying soldiers and families in northern England is bombed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Twelve people killed, 14 hurt.

    October-November 1974 – Wave of IRA bombs in British pubs kills 28 people and wounds more than 200.

    July 1982 – Two IRA bomb attacks on soldiers in London’s royal parks kill 11 people and wound 50.

    December 1983 – IRA bomb at Harrods department store kills six.

    October 1984 – Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’s cabinet narrowly escapes IRA bomb that kills five people at Brighton hotel during Conservative Party’s annual conference.

    September 1989 – Bomb at Royal Marines Music School in Deal, southeast England, kills 11 and wounds 22.

    February 1990 – Explosion at Army recruitment centre in Leicester. Two wounded.

    May 1990 – Seven wounded by blast at Army Educational Service headquarters in London suburb of Eltham.

    May 1990 – One soldier is killed and another wounded by car bomb in Wembley.

    June 1990 – Soldier is shot dead at train station in Lichfield.

    February 1991 – IRA comes close to killing Prime Minister John Major and key cabinet members in a mortar attack on Downing Street. One of three mortar bombs slammed into garden behind building, exploding within 50 feet (15 metres) of the target.

    April 1992 – Huge car bomb outside Baltic Exchange in London’s financial district kills three people and wounds 91.

    March 1993 – Bombs in two litter bins in Warrington kill two boys aged three and 12.

    April 1993 – IRA truck bomb devastates Bishopsgate area of London’s financial district, killing one and wounding 44.

    February 1996 – Two people die when IRA paramilitaries detonate large bomb in London’s Docklands area.

    That is YOU PEOPLE using violence in politics…… not us.

    then you make me Laugh you propose to install a Law for knives that we already have for guns….

    There should be a mandatory ten year sentence for anyone found in non legitimate possession of a knife, no exceptions. As for ‘stop and search’ the details are a bit more nuanced:

    Like our politicians even if the Law existed which over here it does it wouldn’t be used because it’s not PC to many minority’s would be caught up in it….

    I will repeat myself from here to hell and back.

    Americans have a right from god to own and carry arms. Our arms of choice are guns. There are over 600 million legally and illegally owned guns in the hands of the American public.

    We will never give up our guns and we will kill anyone that tries to take them.

    1% let me repeat that ONE PERCENT of people a year die from guns, most of which are self inflicted. Gun deaths make good headlines that’s all they play on the emotions of the feeble, those who are controlled by their emotions instead of their heads.

    The Phantoms of my country can’t have our guns, but they are invited to try and take them, but the lack both the balls and the conviction.

    God, Guns, and Guts…. the real American motto!

  200. Good morning

  201. Americans have a right from god to own and carry arms.

    I must have missed that verse in the Bible.

  202. The Phantoms of my country can’t have our guns, but they are invited to try and take them, but the lack both the balls and the conviction.

    No one wants to take your namby pamby pop toys, pet.

    Don’t you worry.

  203. I must have missed that verse in the Bible.

    a rare ol beauty that one Dave, you made my day.

    is even more delicious as I’ve read you say you’re a non believer
    shamefully many know their verses better than so-called Christians

    Bible is clear
    Those that live by the sword will die by the sword,
    the call is to be a peacemaker and indeed turn the other cheek !

  204. the call is to be a peacemaker and indeed turn the other cheek !

    “I despise you as much as you despise me”.

    Jude.

    You might just possibly read the Bible, but have absolutely no intentions of abiding by it.

  205. quiet, also says not to suffer fools gladly

  206. is even more delicious as I’ve read you say you’re a non believer
    shamefully many know their verses better than so-called Christians

    Dave is seriously into scientific proven facts.

    And yes, Dave most certainly has read some, if not all of the book called the Bible.

    Putting Dave’s serious interest and experience in scientific fascts & his experience of taking the effort to read the Bible. It’s not really that difficult to understand why Dave is a & nonbeliever.

    By the way, listening to Professor Brian Cox recently, before his world tour, which I am seriously looking toward to. He comes to a perfectly correct conclusion “if ghosts/spirits existed, science would have proven it by now”.

    No ghosts, spooks or demons, no God.

  207. yes bur harri dearest, this debate is really about pats justification and ludicrous statement
    “Americans have a right from god to own and carry arms”

    its not in the bible, its in in fact a blasphemy to claim it
    he’s is committing what Christians call a sin

    its the daftest thing i have read in awhile, don’t even think vast majority of Muslims would claim the Koran gives them the right to bear arms ( ofc the crazies believee that )

    the existence or non-existence of the Deity, is with due respect another debate
    I like Brian Cox too, he explains the creation beautifully

    there’s a verse in the bible to worship the creator not the creation
    so i have that in mind when listening to Brian Cox 🙂

  208. Jude.

    No, but swords are.

    We have slightly moved on in the 2000 odd years.

  209. My 12:37 explains what the second amendment is for it has nothing to do with militia, but that is beyond your grasp apparently Militia’s were only mentioned in it primarily because of the Georgia delegates when the document was written. It is about self defense from the GOVERNMENT

    So what you’re suggesting is that it’s about the individual American as opposed to a militia ‘defending’ themselves from the Government?

    That’s an even more absurd proposition than the original militia one. Individuals from John Wilkes Booth to Timothy McVeigh and many,many,many in between have ‘defended’ themselves from the Government. That worked out well.

    The Military can not be used against American citizens inside the country PERIOD it is against the Law and yes the majority in the military would revolt before carrying out attacks against their own people

    And you’re sugesting that should such a crisis leading to mass revolt, mutiny and mass dessertion from the military, (and you still haven’t explained what kind of incident would provoke this), that normal jurisprudence wouldn’t be suspended and Martial Law imposed? If you think that I’ve a rather large bridge to sell at a knock down price.

    That is YOU PEOPLE using violence in politics…… not us.

    Absolutely. The Irish have, quite rightly, used violence in attempting to end British rule in Ireland, but that’s not what you said:

    Because unlike the Irish the American public doesn’t try to change it’s government through force…..

    As I said, that’s simply incorrect. Please give me one example of where the Irish have used violence in order to change an Irish government through force.

    As usuual your sloppiness on geo political history renders you incorrect.

  210. Ok now once again you have heard my and the gun owners of Murica flat out simple statement.

    It don’t matter how many loons go off and shoot themselves and or other people they are the anomaly and you’ll only get our guns out of our cold dead hands….. period… and they ain’t got the kinda guts to try….

    Now lets talk Peace and Harmony…..

    My views are clear, I state them openly, freely and without reservation. I will make the arguments to defend my points of view.

    What I will NOT do is force anyone else to adopt my point of view.

    I won’t scream at you in restaurant, I won’t chase you on the subway, I won’t rant and rave till you are forced to leave public venues, I won’t come to your house and pound on your door until it cracks while your wife is alone in the house……

    Yet those on the left WILL.

    If you dare to publically stand for views other than what they believe they will gladly and openly use the tools of oppression against you, your family, and anyone who will associate with you.

    You tell me who represents a threat to the peace and harmony in my country.

  211. You’re excusing the murder of twelve people by guns because a group of fuckwits hassle a
    handful of people in their homes and restaurants Pat?

    I know which I think the more serious incident.

    You tell me who represents a threat to the peace and harmony in my country

    If you’re going to compare the two IMO it’s those that shoot multiplepeople dead. In fact, mass shootings are so common in the US one of the California dead had survived the Las Vegas shootings:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46150847

  212. As I said, that’s simply incorrect. Please give me one example of where the Irish have used violence in order to change an Irish government through force.

    The Irish Government of NI wasn’t at war with british rule. A small faction of criminal cowards declared themselves the representatives of the peoples will and murdered civilians against the wishes of the government they lived in.

    You glorify animals who blew people up for politics to deny that the IRA wasn’t about politics is the sign of a fanatic or a fool and you are neither. My views on this will never change and neither will my judgement and condemnation. Animals committed death and terror on their fellow countrymen because they weren’t happy with the status quo. People who feel that is ok should be hunted, caged, or killed.

    An Irish Catholic & an Irish Protestant are both IRISH……

    as for the gun thing it doesn’t matter if you understand it or my point of view. You’re not American.

  213. The Irish Government of NI wasn’t at war with british rule

    ‘The Irish Government of NI?’

    Jesus Christ, I suggest you read up on the Government of NI 1922 – 1972.

    It doesn’t matter if you understand it or my point of view. You’re not American.

    Oh I understand it alright, and you’re still wrong. You are unrepresentative of most of the regular American contributors on this site so it’s a safe extrapolation that you are unrepresentative of most Americans, (Trump voters were a minority). But it’s okay that my views don’t matter to you because I’m not an American as your absolute ignorance and beligerance regarding Ireland and just about everything else regarding Europe is absolutely worthless too.

  214. Paul McMahon, on November 9th, 2018 at 7:10 PM Said:
    You’re excusing the murder of twelve people by guns because a group of fuckwits hassle a
    handful of people in their homes and restaurants Pat?

    I know which I think the more serious incident.

    Yeah I know which you think is more important and now I’ll explain why you’re wrong.

    Yes the death of twelve people at the hands of a loon is horrible and should never happen… but it does. You can’t stop crazy period end of story and crazy is random.

    These other attacks are organized. The are reasoned, they have a purpose. This behavior isn’t an anomaly of humanity it’s an organized campaign of intimidation and terror designed to silence a political point of view. These are NAZI’S and I don’t use that term loosely these people are employing Brown Shirt Tactics. They are an organized threat to society.

    An organized threat may not be as spectacular as the sudden death of twelve innocents but the one you worry about is the fluke the aberration that nothing can be done about while the other is a cancer that must be removed from existence.

  215. You can’t stop crazy period end of story and crazy is random.

    No but you can limit access to the tools of mass murder which enable it.

    As to the other waffle, give me someone standing on my lawn or shouting at me in a restaurant over shooting me dead every time.

  216. Paul no matter how you spin it, what you feel in the pain of your heart from that time. The IRA murdered their fellow Irishmen to effect their fellow Irishmen’s political view.

    The Irish of which I am half in blood of are the disgrace of both the christian and western world. All because of the IRA….

    Shame on them for the eternal stain they put on our ancestry. No Honor!

  217. No but you can limit access to the tools of mass murder which enable it.

    no you can’t…… the worst of these acts even in schools have been done with explosives… not guns… crazy finds a way.

  218. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    You aren’t Irish so your views on the subject are worthless.

  219. I don’t want to argue Paul.

    Please don’t take my views personal. They really aren’t directed at you. You did not commit any atrocities and I know to be a good man.

  220. Funny crazy wins a lot less often in Canada or England.

  221. I’m merely applying your own criteria to you Pat.

    Actually Phantom I can’t think of a country where crazy seems to win so often.

  222. “Americans have a right from god to own and carry arms”

    its not in the bible, its in in fact a blasphemy to claim it

    pat must be thinking of the Koran
    easy for peeps like him to get the two mixed

  223. I may get passionate Jude, but you’re a fool.

  224. and Crazy has always been normal here.

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