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The EU is just a group of bureaucrats

By Patty On January 8th, 2019

The EU is not a nation state. The EU is just another organization, like the United Nations. The Trump Administration recently brought home this fact by downgrading the EU’s diplomatic status  in the official registry of diplomatic protocols.

From The New York Times:

Mr. Trump has been critical of multilateral institutions, and his secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, delivered a provocative speech in Brussels on Dec. 4 in which he questioned the value of multinational organizations and institutions like the United Nations and the European Union. Mr. Pompeo then asked whether the European Union was “ensuring that the interests of countries and their citizens are placed before those of bureaucrats here in Brussels.”

The next day, the European Union’s demotion from a member state to an international organization became clear at the funeral of President George Bush, when Mr. O’Sullivan’s name was not called in the expected order, dictated by diplomatic protocols. The names of diplomats who had gathered in Washington to pay their respects were spoken, as is custom, from the longest-serving to the newest ambassador, a European Union official told the German news agency Deutsche Welle. “But he was called up as the last person.”

Spare me the tears.

 

55 Responses to “The EU is just a group of bureaucrats”

  1. Putin’s bitch wrecks havoc on long standing international relations and allies. Imbeciles applaud.

  2. Mahons, on January 9th, 2019 at 12:15 AM Said:

    Putin’s bitch wrecks havoc on long standing international relations and allies. Imbeciles applaud.

    A hard-hitting but concise riposte by one of ATW’s foremost wordsmiths – yet, it’s still utter BS. The EU is an organisation and not a country nor a nation.

  3. “….wrecks havoc….” My error – not concise, not even jokingly.

  4. Utter BS is what you peddle daily you Scottish Nazis Clown.

  5. Mahons – either the EU is a country, and has all the functions and protocols accorded to the diplomats of a country, or it’s an organisation. I would say that Pete, along with messrs Trump and Pompeo, has it correct in that it’s a bureaucratic organisation. This means that your post at 12.15am is the BS that I show it as being – unless you can show the EU to be a country?

  6. Pass the Crack pipe to the next klansman in your circle jerk fool, nobody is buying your bulls hit

  7. Trump likely had zero say in the protocols at the Bush funeral.

    I would think that the details of that service were dictated by the Bush family and by the church

  8. Phantom: it wouldn’t hurt you to read the article that I linked to, would it? EU’s diplomatic status in the official registry of diplomatic protocols was downgraded. Before the funeral. Consulted for the funeral.

    Not difficult to understand, is it? The EU is a group of bureaucrats, ostensibly representing a group of European nations — although Brexit puts even this even in question.

    Put another way, the EU is a group of bureaucrats foisting their ideas on citizens of various nations, propped up by the elites of these nations and international businesses. Considering the EU to be a Nation State would be like considering the Davos gathering to be a Nation State.

  9. “But he was called up as the last person.”

    Now that what I call sending someone to the back of the queue. Or, line as true Americans say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

  10. So, putting the EU bureaucrats in their place can be added to the list..

    I wish we had a President Trump..

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f676620ee05c61aa334392c59c89b38042d4625369aa92275b61ad580d068d80.jpg

  11. //The EU is not a nation state. //

    // Considering the EU to be a Nation State would be like considering …//

    Patty, who is “Considering the EU to be a Nation State”?

    The only people who keep throwing things at that particular straw man are you and Allan.

  12. So on one hand the Brexit supporters are always claiming the EU is a suffocating all dominating commie fascist EUSSR undemocratic superstate which the UK is “breaking its chains of servitude” from , and now they say its just a membership organisation.

    Make your minds up guys 🙂

  13. Downgrading the diplomatic status of the EU in this sneaky and disrespectful fashion would be in line with the MO of the ignorant slob who squats in the White House.

    The EU as a project has until now always been supported by the US, and has always been an ally of the US.

    The US-EU relationship will survive this, and will return to normal Once we again have a real president

  14. It has always been…

  15. Noel, Colm,

    You think that this inconsistency is going to dissuede the Rightworld incoherents from swallowing and regurgitating the rubbish the read on howl at the moon websites? Some chance, give it a short while and this contradiction discarded like all the others and a new allegation will be made.

    – ‘Yeah, but what about the Federal Superstate, and Euro Army and tax and and and’

    – ‘Ummm, yeah. They don’t actually exist and EU voting rules mean thay can’t exist unless every single EU member says they can’

    – ‘Yeah, but they will, my crystal ball says so. Just you wait’

    – ‘But ‘the EU is not a nation state. The EU is just another organization, like the United Nations’

    – ‘Yeah, but,but,but…..’

    The EU as a project has until now always been supported by the US, and has always been an ally of the US.

    The US-EU relationship will survive this, and will return to normal Once we again have a real president

    Absolutely correct Phantom. One thing I don’t envy is being the person that has to clean up the diplomatic and international public image mess left in the wake of this clown.

  16. And again, the Imposter has said that the EU ” was set up to take advantage of the US ”

    This is entirely false. The creation of the EU and of the Euro has been a good thing for US companies and US exporters to Europe. You used to have to deal with many customs setups and multiple currencies. Now you largely deal with one trade regulator, the EU, and one major currency has replaced the smaller currencies before it. This has simplified the red tape and decision making a lot.

    China is the big unfair trader, the EU for the most part has not been unfair, but has been a big force for greater, fairer, simpler trade flows with the US.

  17. The EU is just an organization operating to represent a bunch of nations that decided to form a trading bloc, a unified front, if you will. End of story.

    Next up: the World Trade Organization

  18. Good to see that you’ve actually learned something from the ‘progressives’ or ‘liberals’ or something here Patty.

  19. The EU is more than a trading bloc.

    It has good and not good aspects.

    It’s not a ” EUSSR ” or any of that nonsense.

  20. //The EU is just an organization operating to represent a bunch of nations that decided to form a trading bloc, a unified front, if you will. End of story. //

    Boy, just try telling that to Harri, Pete Moore, Peter and others.

    Patty, if you can’t listen to liberals, do yourself a favour and at least listen to Phantom above. As it is, you are stumbling from total error at one end (the EU is a dictatorship) straight to another error at the opposite end (the EU is just a trading bloc).

  21. NATO is just an organisation. But I imagine if the EU nations started disrespecting Curtis Scaparrotti in such a manner then the American government wouldn’t be best pleased.

  22. I never said that the EU is a dictatorship. On the contrary. I said the EU was a trading bloc of countries, not a nation state.

    Tell me how the EU is more than just a collection of bureaucrats representing a trading bloc of European countries.

    Tell me.

  23. The EU is the member states of the European Union. The EU is more than just the Commission. So to categorise them as “collection of bureaucrats” is patently untrue.

  24. These guys need to get their stories straight.

    Trumpers demonize the EU because Trump doesn’t like it and that’s the end of the thought process

    Europeans may have legit criticisms against the EU but that organization is highly benign to the US, despite what you may read here.

  25. Tell me how the EU is more than just a collection of bureaucrats representing a trading bloc of European countries.

    The EU is a political project.

  26. It is a political and economic project.

  27. The EU is principally a trading bloc with a political dimension.

  28. Though in terms of its role with the United States it would be primarily economic.

  29. “with a political dimension.”

    lol. that is soooo descriptive!! you mean, the bureaucrats grab power if you let them??

    That “political dimension?”

  30. The EU is not “bureaucrats”. Anyone with even a partial understanding of EU structures would know that.

    That you don’t seem to says a lot more about you than it does about the EU.

  31. You mean the bureaucrats grab power if you let them??

    No, I mean that it is primarily a trading bloc with political rules regarding uniformity of members.

  32. You mean the bureaucrats grab power if you let them??

    Too late..

    Article 48 Lisbon Treaty.

    Thise appears to its blueprint.

    Article 48 of the constitution of the Weimar Republic of Germany (1919–1933) allowed the President, under certain circumstances, to take emergency measures without the prior consent of the Reichstag. This power was understood to include the promulgation of “emergency decrees (Notverordnungen)”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitution)

  33. I’m pretty sure that is exactly what Trump is trying to do now in the United States.

  34. Too late..

    Article 48 Lisbon Treaty

    Too late what?

  35. The EU is significantly more than just a trading bloc. All citizens of member states are also EU citizens following greater political and legal integration under the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties which allow for complete freedom of movement for Workers Capital Goods and Services without discrimination and access to public services in all EU countries. It would be more accurate now to describe it as a loose federation of Sovereign states.

  36. The EU would likely best be described as a confederation – akin to the United States before the Constitution – when the Articles of Confederation were the constitutional document.

  37. //Tell me how the EU is more than just a collection of bureaucrats representing a trading bloc of European countries.//

    Patty, a trading bloc is something like the Pacific Alliance or Mercosur in Latin America. They are based simply on intergovernment treaties aimed at promoting economic growth by, amongst other things, reducing trade barriers.

    The EU, in contrast, has a parliament and a Commission, which is like, but not quite, a government. The parliament is elected directly by the people of all the member states and passes laws binding on national governments. The EU Commision enforces and monitors EU laws, but is subject to complex majorities, which means it can’t foist laws on EU member states.

    The EU also has a charter of fundamental rights protecting all EU citizens and that includes political and social, as well as economic, rights. EU citizens have a right to live and work in any of the member states.
    The EU also obliges all members to maintain a certain democratic standard.

    The EU has a single currency, which all new members must commit to accepting (providing they fulfill certain ecnomic criteria).

    There just some of the things that make the EU more than a simple trading bloc.

  38. //akin to the United States before the Constitution – when the Articles of Confederation were the constitutional document.//

    Interesting. ‘twould be good to hear more about that from someone with a bit of objectivity and a lot of knowledge.

  39. ” The EU Commision enforces and monitors EU laws, but is subject to complex majorities, which means it can’t foist laws on EU member states.”

    The EU Commission also can’t pass laws. Laws must be passed by the European legislature – a de facto bicameral legislature comprising of the European Parliament (the de facto lower chamber), and the Council of the European Union (the de facto upper chamber).

  40. Lisbon Treaty does contain a self amending clause, it’s called Article 48
    3 May, 2008

    Sinn Féin Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald has described claims by media commentators that the Lisbon Treaty does not allow the European Commission or Council to increase and extend its own powers without the need for referendum as false. The Dublin MEP said “the Lisbon Treaty does contain a self amending clause, it’s called Article 48.”

    Ms McDonald continued:

    “Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without recourse to an intergovernmental conference or a new Treaty. It is also unclear whether this ‘simplified revision procedure’ would be subject to a referendum.

    “Up to now revisions of EU treaties required such stages so as to ensure that member state parliaments, and in the case of Ireland, populations can have a say in the decision making process of the EU.

    “Article 48 dispenses with this and allows the European Council to make amendments by unanimity and in certain cases by qualified majority voting, without the guarantee of any process of member state ratification. In real terms this means that in the future significant changes could be made to the structure, procedures or competencies of the EU without the guarantee of a referendum.

    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/12486

  41. Yes, she’s correct to a certain extent:

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12016M048

    And how is that ‘bureaucrats grabbing power’ as you suggest?

  42. The Articles of Confederation was America’s first constitution. Probably the biggest distinction between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution was sovereignty. Under the Articles of Confederation the States were individually sovereign, while under the Constitution the Constitution (and through it the Federation – the United States – itself) was sovereign.

    Probably, as seen now with the EU, sovereignty effectively boils down to whether or not they can leave. In a federation a state can’t leave. Alabama etc… can’t leave the United States. In a confederation a state can leave. The United Kingdom etc… can leave the European Union.

    A state could have, though as far as I am aware none ever tried, left the United States under the Articles of Confederation.

    The major reason for the failure of the Articles of Confederation was the inherent weakness of it. The United States could not respond to threats or difficulties. A massive rebellion started (in protest over government actions) and the United States was unable to fight it. It was largely put down by the State of Massachusetts. They also couldn’t get funding to fight piracy (something lambasted by even opponents of a strong federal system like Jefferson). This was the major catalyst for the Constitutional Convention that decided the new US Constitution (creating a much stronger federal system).

  43. ” how is that ‘bureaucrats grabbing power’ as you suggest?”

    By posing as a Supra-state over its members when in fact it is not a sovereign nation and has no real constituents that it represents, other than itself.

  44. Article 48 simplifies the methods for amending the EU treaties. It does not however remove the requirement that any treaty change must be ratified by member states (in their own way).

    “The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.”

    So any treaty change must be ratified by every member state. In most states that is passage through their particular legislature. In the Republic it is via constitutional amendment.

    Article 48 doesn’t change that.

  45. By posing as a Supra-state over its member

    You are aware that the European Council consists of the Heads of State or Government of each of its individual members aren’t you Patty?

  46. “By posing as a Supra-state over its members when in fact it is not a sovereign nation and has no real constituents that it represents, other than itself.”

    Its constituents are its member states. The EU represents the 28 member states of the European Union.

  47. Interesting comment at 4:28, Seamus. (didn’t see it until after I had posted.)

    Clearly, Brussels is not Washington DC and does not represent the European country members in the same way that Washington DC represents the States.

    Note that we fought a Civil War in order to keep the Union together, northern states versus southern states. Washington DC was not waging the war.

    With the EU, it’s more like Brussels is fighting member states – like Britain – who wish to break off. Brussels has created a Supra State, not functioning as a capitol.

  48. I would argue that EU member states are not fighting to keep Britain in the Union.

    Brussels is fighting to keep Britain in the Union.

    That’s a huge difference. Brussels is representing itself, not its constituents.

  49. I would argue that EU member states are not fighting to keep Britain in the Union

    And how would you argue that Patty?

    You really think that the intricacies of European decision making are known or important to these obstinate anti EU ignormamouses Seamus?

  50. “I would argue that EU member states are not fighting to keep Britain in the Union.

    Brussels is fighting to keep Britain in the Union.”

    I would argue neither is true. The EU’s major concern is preventing a hard border on the island of Ireland. Other than that its major concern is protecting the integrity of the Single Market and the rules surrounding it (effectively not allowing Britain to have the benefits of EU membership without having EU membership).

    Neither are an attempt to keep Britain in the Single Market.

    “Note that we fought a Civil War in order to keep the Union together, northern states versus southern states. Washington DC was not waging the war.”

    Northern States commanded by the Federal Government. Which is why the Massachusetts Militia was made part of the Union Army. So organisationally it was the Union Army, containing the Massachusetts Militia, the Pennsylvania Militia etc… fighting the rebels, not the Massachusetts Militia etc… fighting them.

  51. “You really think that the intricacies of European decision making are known or important to these obstinate anti EU ignormamouses Seamus?”

    Probably not, but then the intricacies of the European Union are pretty complex. And it is much easier throwing mud at it rather than working out those complexities.

    The EU is a system. In order to understand the EU you must understand the system. And attempts to understand the EU without understanding the system will fail.

    It would be like trying to understand, for example, American policy making without understanding the role of the President, Congress etc…

  52. //The EU Commission also can’t pass laws. Laws must be passed by the European legislature – a de facto bicameral legislature comprising of the European Parliament (the de facto lower chamber), and the Council of the European Union (the de facto upper chamber).//

    //“You really think that the intricacies of European decision making are known or important to these obstinate anti EU ignormamouses //

    In fairness to critics, the fact that these things, notwithstanding their complexity, would also have to be explained to most EU citizens is one of the major failings, or rather problems, of the EU.
    The combination of complexity on the one hand and apathy on the other is deadly for any democratic entity.

  53. A certain amount of it is apathy. Generally the perception that the EU dominates political life is wrong. It is largely only put forward in arguments against the EU (all this EU regulation, the EU tells us what to do etc…). In reality if the EU was as involved in the running of each member state then likely the citizenry of that member state would learn more about the EU.

    Truth be told it is probably most similar to the German political system. Which makes sense. Of the four major EU member states (the UK, Germany, France and Italy) two have fucked up political systems, which at the first sign of trouble just stop working. Two have broadly speaking efficient working systems. One of those is apathetic at best to Europe, while the other is broadly supportive. So it isn’t surprising that the largest, successfully run, pro-EU member state has largely provided the blueprint for EU governance.

    The thing they need to fix is the names. The functions make sense but the names need work. The European Parliament is only half of the EU legislature. That’s fucked up. The European Council, the Council of the European Union and the Council of Europe are all different bodies. We are approaching People’s Front of Judea territory.

  54. It would be more accurate now to describe it as a loose federation of Sovereign states.

    Brilliant 🙂

    https://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/britain-europe-bruges-group/

    “the ultimate creation of a European federal state, with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic management (fiscal, monetary, incomes and regional policies) would ultimately be handed over to the central federal authorities. The Werner report suggests that this radical transformation of present Communities should be accomplished within a decade”. (PRO/FCO 30/789)

    Such a political and economic union, possibly also including a common defence policy, would thus involve a massive loss of national sovereignty, which would ultimately leave member states with somewhat less power “than the autonomy enjoyed by the states of the USA”. But what alarmed the Foreign Office was not the contents of the Werner Report. Mr Heath and his ministers did not throw up their hands in horror and say “good heavens, we had no idea this was what the Common Market is about. We could not possibly accept such a thing”. On the contrary, when Geoffrey Rippon, the minister in charge of our negotiations, went to see M. Werner on October 27, the minutes of their discussion show that Rippon went out of his way to congratulate him on his report, which he said “well stated our common objectives”. Privately, Her Majesty’s Government had no objection to the political union Werner was proposing. (PRO/CAB 164/771)

    Can the constituent states of the US be considered ‘sovereign’? No, they cannot. As is seen, any attempt by any constituent state to secede from DC would be put down by force.

    10 USC 332-
    Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

    10 USC 333-
    The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it–

    (1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or

    (2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.

    If the EU ‘project’ is ever completed, no country would be allowed to leave.

  55. In fairness to critics, the fact that these things, notwithstanding their complexity, would also have to be explained to most EU citizens is one of the major failings, or rather problems, of the EU

    How many EU citizens would know the policy process of their respective national governments, the difference between a STV and FPTP system, open and closed electoral lists, different forms of democracies etc? I agree that the machinations of the EU can be complex, and that’s one of the criticisms of it, but as Seamus says above, I think a fair bit of it’s apathy.

    The difference of course is that most wouldn’t be commenting on a political blog unlike low information dolts here who believe all that shit they read on low rate howl at the moon web pages and think that EU institutions are autarchic entities somehow divorced from the national states that they are comprised of / elected / appointed to and then proceed, in the absence of a knowledge of the EU’s procedures and workings, to throw all kinds of emotive shit around in the hope that some of it will stick.