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Everything against everyone should be dismissed

By Patrick Van Roy On January 18th, 2019

FRUIT OF POISONOUS TREE DOCTRINE

The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree doctrine (also known as the Derivative Evidence Doctrine) is a rule in criminal law that makes evidence that was derived from an illegal search, arrest or interrogation inadmissible. In other words, the evidence (the “fruit”) was tainted due to it coming from the illegal search and seizure (the “poisonous tree”). Under this doctrine, not only must illegally obtained evidence be excluded, but also all evidence obtained or derived from exploitation of that evidence. The courts deem such evidence tainted fruit of the poisonous tree. The origin of this doctrine is found in the landmark Supreme Court case, Wong Sun v. United States, 371 U.S. 471 (1963).

Bruce Ohr The then-senior Department of Justice (DOJ) official briefed both senior FBI and DOJ officials in summer 2016 about Christopher Steele’s Russia dossier, explicitly cautioning that the British intelligence operative’s work was opposition research connected to Hillary Clinton’s campaign and might be biased.

Ohr’s briefings, in July and August 2016, included the deputy director of the FBI, a top lawyer for then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch and a Justice official who later would become the top deputy to special counsel Robert Mueller.

At the time, Ohr was the associate deputy attorney general. Yet his warnings about political bias were pointedly omitted weeks later from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant that the FBI obtained from a federal court, granting it permission to spy on whether the Trump campaign was colluding with Russia to hijack the 2016 presidential election.

The First FISA Warrant was filed in October of 2016.  Every official that signed the FISA Warrants committed Perjury. Yates, McCabe, Comey, and Rosenstein, all Falsified documents presented to the FISA Court. The Warrants are the Poisonous Tree. Every crime and or criminal behavior uncovered as a result of those Warrants needs to be thrown out or suppressed.

That not only includes everything against Trump, but also against Flynn, Manafort, and Cohen.

No matter if they found bodies buried in their backyards buried with the murder weapon covered in fingerprints. All evidence that can be traced back to the FISA Warrants in any form should be thrown out. Which apply to the entire Special Counsel against Trump.

A NEW Special Counsel needs to be seated to investigate the FBI/DOJ and their falsification of Warrants before the most powerful court in the United States. If determined that the FBI did not investigate the validity of the accusations in the Steel Dossier which both Comey and McCabe have testified under oath that they did not, then they are guilty by their own Testimony.

These a Criminal Felonies.

Once that investigation is done Yates, McCabe, Comey, and Rosenstein along with multiple others would be prosecuted. If found guilty of what they have testified to under oath ALL the charges against everyone must be thrown out. That is how the Law works.

Here is Rosenstein explaining FISA added to the fact that he knew along with Yates, McCabe, and Comey that the Steele Dossier was a Fraud why they are guilty of Perjury without even knowing it.

118 Responses to “Everything against everyone should be dismissed”

  1. ” Every official that signed the FISA Warrants committed Perjury. Yates, McCabe, Comey, and Rosenstein, all Falsified documents presented to the FISA Court. The Warrants are the Poisonous Tree. Every crime and or criminal behavior uncovered as a result of those Warrants needs to be thrown out or suppressed.”

    In what manner are the FISA Warrants fraudulent or falsified? In what way did the signatories to them commit perjury?

  2. Seamus

    Yet his warnings about political bias were pointedly omitted weeks later from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant that the FBI obtained from a federal court, granting it permission to spy on whether the Trump campaign was colluding with Russia to hijack the 2016 presidential election.

  3. An omission is not necessarily a falsification.

    Are you telling me that, from now on, if the police omit that one cop thinks the suspect is innocent, or that an informant is questionable, that the warrant is fraudulent, all of the police officers should go to prison, and the suspect should be freed?

  4. They were informed that the Steele Dossier was “opposition Research” paid for by the Hillary Campaign and could not be verified.

    They never verified the information themselves yet in signing the FISA Warrant Application they were testifying that they had verified the information, and they did not reveal the source to the FISA Court of the information.

    That’s Perjury. Listen to Rosenstein explain it himself… when you sign that document you are swearing under oath that it has all be verified and corroborated.

    It was neither.

  5. “They never verified the information themselves yet in signing the FISA Warrant Application they were testifying that they had verified the information”

    Where did they say they verified the information?

  6. If the FBI KNEW that the dossier was fraudulent, and obtained the warrant through deceit, then yes, the warrant would be fraudulent as well, in my unschooled opinion.

  7. No Seamus they Lied on the Warrant.

    If the Warrant isn’t Legit it is the Poisonous Tree.

    All 4 KNEW the information for the Warrant was false but testified that it was True, Verified and Corroborated.

  8. “If the FBI KNEW that the dossier was fraudulent”

    If they knew the dossier was fraudulent.

    But one DOJ official being concerned that there was political bias in the dossier is not the same as the FBI knowing that the dossier was fraudulent.

  9. “No Seamus they Lied on the Warrant.”

    Where?

  10. Bruce Ohr briefed the heads of the FBI/DOJ that the Steele Dossier was Fraudulant he testified to that fact under oath.

    The First FISA Warrant wasn’t sought for two more months and the core of the warrant was info they knew to be false.

  11. “Bruce Ohr briefed the heads of the FBI/DOJ that the Steele Dossier was Fraudulant he testified to that fact under oath.

    The First FISA Warrant wasn’t sought for two more months and the core of the warrant was info they knew to be false.”

    He didn’t say it was fraudulent. He said it was prepared by the Clinton campaign and might be biased. Not that it was false.

  12. Ohr wasn’t “concerned” he was stating FACT…. His wife Hired Steele, his wife works for Fusion GPS. Ohr was Steele’s handler for the FBI.

    He told them flat out nothing in the report could NOT be verified, and the did no FBI verification of the information yet still presented it as hard fact evidence.

  13. “He told them flat out nothing in the report could NOT be verified, and the did no FBI verification of the information yet still presented it as hard fact evidence.”

    No they didn’t.

  14. They inform the judge that a source (unnamed but Christopher Steele) had been hired by a US person (unnamed but the Clinton campaign) to conduct research regarding Donald Trump’s ties to Russia. It states that Steele had been paid to do so by that person (unnamed but the Clinton campaign). It at no point in time says that Steele’s findings had been verified. It states that “Source #1’s [Christopher Steele] reporting has been corroborated and used in criminal proceedings and the FBI assesses Source #1 to be reliable”. This does not mean that the FBI had verified his dossier. It means that in the past Christopher Steele had worked with the FBI in criminal proceedings before, his findings in those cases had been verified, and as such they found him to be a credible source.

  15. Presenting evidence for a warrant is a very exact procedure, falsification of those procedures are perjury. Perjury before FISA is a Felony.

    Seamus did you watch the clip?

  16. The point is that the warrant is tainted, to introduce a new word. If you find a cockroach in your plate of spaghetti, you don’t eat around it, you throw the whole thing out! It’s tainted.

  17. It states that “Source #1’s [Christopher Steele] reporting has been corroborated and used in criminal proceedings and the FBI assesses Source #1 to be reliable”.

    It’s been proven and testified to under oath since then that it was NOT corroborated.

  18. “Presenting evidence for a warrant is a very exact procedure, falsification of those procedures are perjury. Perjury before FISA is a Felony.”

    It wasn’t a falsification.

    “Seamus did you watch the clip?”

    Yes. Did you? It has to be signed by a “career federal law enforcement officer who swears that the information in the affidavit is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and belief”. You have in no way shape or form shown that to not be the case.

    “The point is that the warrant is tainted, to introduce a new word.”

    Is it though? Again if police are getting a search warrant and they leave out the fact that someone in the police department thinks the informant is biased is that warrant now no longer acceptable? Do the police officers who prepared it go to prison?

  19. “Presenting evidence for a warrant is a very exact procedure, falsification of those procedures are perjury. Perjury before FISA is a Felony.”

    It wasn’t a falsification.

    “Seamus did you watch the clip?”

    Yes. Did you? It has to be signed by a “career federal law enforcement officer who swears that the information in the affidavit is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and belief”. You have in no way shape or form shown that to not be the case.

    “The point is that the warrant is tainted, to introduce a new word.”

    Is it though? Again if police are getting a search warrant and they leave out the fact that someone in the police department thinks the informant is biased is that warrant now no longer acceptable? Do the police officers who prepared it go to prison?

  20. PVR, The clip is very informative, I must say.

  21. “It’s been proven and testified to under oath since then that it was NOT corroborated.”

    Did you not the read the paragraph. Read the end of the paragraph.

    This does not mean that the FBI had verified his dossier. It means that in the past Christopher Steele had worked with the FBI in criminal proceedings before, his findings in those cases had been verified, and as such they found him to be a credible source.

    His dossier on Trump was not verified or corroborated. But then it couldn’t be. If it could have been then they didn’t need a warrant – they could have moved straight to arrests.

    His previous work for the FBI was corroborated. They found him credible because of that.

  22. Seamus, you should seriously consider law as a career! 🙂

  23. I did briefly in the past, Charles, consider going into law. My main subject interest is politics so I went with that and studied political science. And I now work in a related field – I’m a policy analyst for a lobbying organisation. I prefer the work I do now if I’m being honest.

  24. “career federal law enforcement officer who swears that the information in the affidavit is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and belief”

    EVERYONE that signed KNEW the information in the affidavit was FALSE. The knew because they were told it was 3 months earlier…….

  25. “EVERYONE that signed KNEW the information in the affidavit was FALSE. The knew because they were told it was 3 months earlier…….”

    They were not told that it was false. They were told it may be biased. Not false … biased.

  26. I’m a policy analyst for a lobbying organisation.

    Wow! That sounds so interesting. I’m a pensioner sitting in my pajamas, formerly a pharmacist. I must admit, however, that the Parkinson’s disease has dulled my intellect. Sad but true.

  27. getting old sucks at times doesn’t it Charles

  28. I’m sorry to hear that Charles. Age will get us all in the end. One of those sad facts of life.

  29. They were not told that it was false. They were told it may be biased. Not false … biased.

    BULLSHIT!

    Part of the Dossier was the peeing on the bed story and that had long before been proven false.

    Seamus you are neglecting several very important points.

    All the parties in this were acting out of Malice and using the Power to subvert a Presidential Election.

    All these people have since been fired for misconduct on the job.

    All these people were certain Hillary Clinton would win and none of this would ever see the light of day.

  30. At no point have you shown any evidence that they acted illegally. At no point have you shown any evidence that proves, in any way shape or form, that the knew the dossier was false. You have shown how one DOJ official believed it may be biased. But not false.

    You are also, at times, suggesting that if you can’t prove someone is guilty then you can’t get a search warrant. That would pretty much make most search warrants ever issued illegal.

  31. Thanks guys. At least I still have my looks, lol.

  32. PVR

    “Part of the Dossier was the peeing on the bed story and that had long before been proven false.” Can you say how it was proven false?

    If you think your theory above will have any effect, I think you are grasping at straws.

  33. How would the Trump urolagnia story ever be proven false?

  34. PVR –

    Good post. Very well explained.

  35. ow would the Trump urolagnia story ever be proven false?

    Luckily under our system of justice, the onus is on the prosecutor to prove it true beyond a reasonable doubt!

  36. The lawyers for any of the defendants have not made and/or have not successfully made such an argument. But people are free to pretend if they wish.

  37. “Luckily under our system of justice, the onus is on the prosecutor to prove it true beyond a reasonable doubt!”

    Except in Patrick’s invocation of it the prosecution would have to prove that it was false as he is accusing DOJ officials of perjury. So it would need to be proven that it was false.

  38. True, Charles, I only say as does I think NY, that the Trump Piss Party story has not been disproven or proven.

    Patrick brought it up.

  39. here ya go…..

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01/fake-news-buzzfeed-cnn-fall-trump-piss-story-4chan-prank/

  40. Trump tweets that he will have a “major announcement” tomorrow at 3 pm ET on the border and shutdown. As long as it doesn’t screw up Sunday Football, I’m ready to listen.

  41. Bruce Ohr, the one time high ranking Department of Justice (DOJ) official, testified behind closed doors this week on Capitol Hill. In hours of sworn testimony Ohr, said that the Trump Dossier was basically a fraud that should not have been used in a court of law.

    https://usawatchdog.com/bruce-ohr-reveals-phony-trump-dossier-middle-east-troubles-emerging-market-crisis/

    “Bruce Ohr goes up to Congress, he testifies that the previous testimony about when the FBI and DOJ knew about that Steele dossier was false,” said Knowles. “Previously, we had heard that the DOJ and the FBI did not know about the Steele dossier until September. This matters because they then in October went to get a FISA warrant to surveil Carter Page working for the Trump campaign.”

    He continued: “Now what we find out from Bruce Ohr, who’s in a real position to know, is that he told the FBI and the DOJ about Christopher Steele, about how Steele was working for the Democrats, about how Christopher Steele ‘was desperate that Trump not be elected.’ He told them about this in July. So now they know about this in July, they know that this dossier is not only unverified but it’s politically biased, it’s bought and paid for by Democrats and that the guy who put it together has a serious grudge against Donald Trump, does not want him to be elected.”

    That’s when the apparent obfuscation took place. “Nevertheless, the FBI and the DOJ persist for a few months, then they go to get the FISA warrant in October and they basically lie to the federal judge,” he said. “They at least misled the federal judge in October of 2016 to get that FISA warrant, and this is a big deal.”

    Knowles explained that, according to testimony, the DOJ left out the information that the Steele dossier was politically biased and that the “guy who did it has a grudge against Donald Trump, he’s desperate for him not to be elected. Oh, and by the way, it was paid for by Hillary Clinton and the Democrats.”

    https://conservativemedia.com/news/knowles-bruce-ohrs-testimony-game-changer-russia-collusion-investigation/

    Justice Department official Bruce Ohr’s testimony about his meetings with FBI officials regarding dossier author Christopher Steele severely undercuts claims made in 2018 by California Rep. Adam Schiff and his fellow Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee.

    Ohr told lawmakers Aug. 28, 2018, he briefed top FBI officials Andrew McCabe and Lisa Page in early August 2016, just days after he met with Steele, a former British spy who was investigating then-candidate Donald Trump.

    Ohr testified he told McCabe and Page about his interactions with Steele, who was working at the time for Fusion GPS, a Democrat-funded opposition research firm. (RELATED: Bruce Ohr Acknowledged That His Dossier-Related Contacts Looked Suspicious)

    The FBI relied heavily on Steele’s unverified dossier to obtain Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrants against former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/17/bruce-ohr-adam-schiff-dossier/

    They signed the application for a warrant. Signing the application as explained in the above video is testifying UNDER OATH that ALL information has been verified, backed by corroborating evidence, and true…..

    Which it was not…. and they knew it because Ohr told them it wasn’t and he has testified under oath that he told them.

    That’s PERJURY which before the FISA court is a Felony.

  42. oh and whoever cited Buzzfeed is credible…..

    Mueller himself put out a statement…. the first statement they have ever OFFICIALLY made…

    That BUZZFEED latest scoop was an out and out LIE…. they have no testimony or evidence that Trump ordered Cohen to Lie….

  43. Patrick, you beat me to the punch…

    BuzzFeed’s description of specific statements to the Special Counsel’s Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen’s Congressional testimony are not accurate,” Peter Carr, a spokesman for Mueller’s office, said Friday.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mueller-team-disputes-buzzfeed-report-claiming-trump-told-cohen-to-lie

  44. lol

  45. PVR

    “Part of the Dossier was the peeing on the bed story and that had long before been proven false.” Can you say how it was proven false?”

    You have no credible evidence that backs up your statement. It appears you are attempting to use discredited right-wing nutjob sites for support. That does not wash. Your poisonous tree doctrine compels us to conclude that your entire post is nothing but hot air and a waste of time.

  46. Yeah Christopher Steele testified under oath in England that none of it was true…..

  47. Christopher Steele, the former British spy who wrote the infamous anti-Donald Trump dossier, acknowledges that a sensational charge his sources made about a tech company CEO and Democratic Party hacking is unverified.

    In a court filing, Mr. Steele also says his accusations against the president and his aides about a supposed Russian hacking conspiracy were never supposed to be made public, much less posted in full on a website for the world to see on Jan. 10.

    He defends himself by saying he was betrayed by his client and that he followed proper internal channels by giving the dossier to Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican, to alert the U.S. government.

    Mr. Steele has not spoken publicly about his disputed opposition research project, but for the first time he is being forced to talk in a London court through his attorneys.

    Barristers for Mr. Steele and his Orbis Business Intelligence firm filed their first defense against a defamation lawsuit brought by Aleksej Gubarev, chief executive of the network solutions firm XBT Holdings.

  48. The Dossier is the only real collusion we KNOW took place between the Russians and an American campaign….

    The Clintons Hired Perkins Coie, to pay Fusion GPS to pay Steele who paid his russian contacts for “Information” for the oppo research…..

    Oh and the Beast Lied to the FEC and said the money was for “Legal Costs” on her campaign sheet which is a crime it was for oppo research…. so we have an FEC violation and a CONSPIRACY because collusion is not a crime between Hillary and the Russians via Fusion GPS where Ohr’s Wife works….

  49. Here from that right wing wackjob site the Washington Post

    The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about President Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said.

    Marc E. Elias, a lawyer representing the Clinton campaign and the DNC, retained Fusion GPS, a Washington firm, to conduct the research.

    After that, Fusion GPS hired dossier author Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer with ties to the FBI and the U.S. intelligence community, according to those people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

    Elias and his law firm, Perkins Coie, retained the company in April 2016 on behalf of the Clinton campaign and the DNC. Before that agreement, Fusion GPS’s research into Trump was funded by an unknown Republican client during the GOP primary.

  50. and the information about Ohr testifying he told his superiors it was false is The Hill….

  51. What is the source for the article about Steele testifying?

  52. it’s called type into google Steele testifies dossier is false and find it yourself…..

    He was sued in GB by a Russian over it…. maybe our british comrades can do some of your research for you……

  53. Every single piece of evidence does not need to be verified (as doing so would likely not be possible). If the FBI could independently verify the information in their warrants then likely speaking they wouldn’t need the warrant. They could move straight to arrest. At no point in time did they say the information was verified – just that the source of the information was credible. What would need to be verified is not the information that Christopher Steele provided but whether or not Christopher Steele was credible.

    It is then up to a federal judge to decide if it meets the standard of probable cause.

    “Which it was not…. and they knew it because Ohr told them it wasn’t and he has testified under oath that he told them.”

    Nonsense. He said that it was potentially biased. Not that it was untrue.

    “Yeah Christopher Steele testified under oath in England that none of it was true…..”

    No he didn’t. Your own links and quotes suggest the opposite. From your Washington Times article:

    Mr. Steele acknowledges that the part of the 35-page dossier that identified Mr. Gubarev as a rogue hacker came from “unsolicited intelligence” and “raw intelligence” that “needed to be analyzed and further investigated/verified.”

    Needs to be verified and analysed. Not untrue.

  54. Me no understand this thread. It’s too complicated 🧐

  55. Seamus to get a Warrant in the US everything in the application has to be true…..

    Now if it doesn’t in the Banana Republic you live in my suggestion is move.

  56. “Seamus to get a Warrant in the US everything in the application has to be true…..”

    And at no point in time have you ever shown that it wasn’t. And the application was true. A verified source has provided claims about Donald Trump. That is all the applications said. And those facts are true. Those claims may not be (again hasn’t actually been proven) but the source was verified and he made those claims. So the only facts that had to be true were true.

  57. Me no understand this thread. It’s too complicated 🧐

    Colm, me too. I think it boils down to that the Steele Dossier was biased, but Seamus counters that that doesn’t means untrue!

  58. Colm

    There’s a lot of practicing law here without a law license

    Best to skip right over it

  59. The Steele Dossier is a fraud, when buzzfeed printed it Steele was sued by 4 people in Britain and claimed to be the “victim” of Fusion GPS, the Clintons and John McCain…. It was oppo research that he paid russian spies to write nothing more…. it was used unverified by the CROOKED management of the FBI to falsify an application for a warrant before the FISA court.

    Please listen to Rosenstein himself above on how important that application is….

    Murderers and gangsters walk free all the time in the US because some fuc* up screwed up the Warrant, and all evidence as I said even if it was a corpse with the murder weapon must be thrown out.

    I know the NY contingent refuses to believe anything not in the old grey ho, but too bad.

    A large number of Sr FBI/DOJ personnel should be going to jail. Several are right now under criminal investigation for the FISA applications and the falsification in the Hillary investigation but all you read about is Trump.

  60. Phantom our society THE AMERICAN SOCIETY is based on the Law.

    Everyone is supposed to be equal under it… you can’t be equal if you don’t bother to study it and understand how it works…. educate yourself.

  61. Yes everybody should go to jail except for Honest Don Trump

  62. My understanding of it is that unless the defendants can prove (under a preponderance of the evidence) that the information is false then the warrant stands.

    Then, after proving that the information is false they must also prove (under a preponderance of the evidence) that the FBI and DOJ either knew the information was false, or had a reckless disregard for the truth. If not the warrant stands.

    After that the defendants must also prove that a warrant wouldn’t have been issued without those incorrect pieces of information. If not the warrant stands.

    The burden in all of this is on the defendant (as they are the ones attempting to exclude evidence).

    If those three tests aren’t met then the warrant, and subsequent evidence, stands in court. So in order for fruit of the poisonous tree to apply you would need to meet those three tests. It likely falls at the first.

    Bear in mind that even if the information in the dossier was proven to be false (something that actually hasn’t happened yet – and is unlikely to be provable or unprovable) then you would also have to prove that the FBI knew that it was false, or that they had a reckless disregard for the truth. Biased evidence is still evidence. You would have to convince a judge that they were reckless.

    If not the warrant stands under the exceptions to the Fourth Amendment laid out in United States vs Leon.

  63. What Seamus doesn’t understand is that even if it wasn’t biased it by LAW is supposed to be VERIFIED by the FBI and there must be corroborating evidence to be included in the application for a FISA Warrant.

    It was not verified nor corroborated and therefore broke the evidentiary rules for the FISA court resulting in Perjury.

    The FBI/DOJ has admitted under oath they did NOT verify or corroborate it.

  64. “The Steele Dossier is a fraud”

    Prove it.

    ” it was used unverified by the CROOKED management of the FBI”

    It didn’t need to be verified. Steele needed to be verified. The dossier did not.

    “Please listen to Rosenstein himself above on how important that application is”

    It has to be signed by a “career federal law enforcement officer who swears that the information in the affidavit is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and belief”. It was. The procedure was followed.

    “Murderers and gangsters walk free all the time in the US because some fuc* up screwed up the Warrant, and all evidence as I said even if it was a corpse with the murder weapon must be thrown out.”

    Only if the defendants can meet the three tests I laid out in my previous post. If not the warrant stands.

  65. “What Seamus doesn’t understand is that even if it wasn’t biased it by LAW is supposed to be VERIFIED by the FBI and there must be corroborating evidence to be included in the application for a FISA Warrant.”

    Nope. The facts of the FISA warrant application was that a source has provided this dossier. The dossier does not need to be verified. The source does. They verified the source.

  66. My understanding of it is that unless the defendants can prove (under a preponderance of the evidence) that the information is false then the warrant stands.

    Then, after proving that the information is false they must also prove (under a preponderance of the evidence) that the FBI and DOJ either knew the information was false, or had a reckless disregard for the truth. If not the warrant stands.

    Rules are different for FISA because it’s a “Secret Court and there is no one ever to represent a defendant…. it is a rubber stamp to violate a persons 4th, and 5th amendment rights.

    The left used this court exactly in the manner that they protested it would be used when they objected to it’s creation.

  67. It didn’t need to be verified. Steele needed to be verified. The dossier did not.

    I can’t quote you chapter and verse, but that statement doesn’t pass the smell test.

  68. Nope. The facts of the FISA warrant application was that a source has provided this dossier. The dossier does not need to be verified. The source does. They verified the source.

    WRONG

  69. Rules are different for FISA because it’s a “Secret Court and there is no one ever to represent a defendant…. it is a rubber stamp to violate a persons 4th, and 5th amendment rights.

    Exactly Patrick. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

  70. “Rules are different for FISA”

    Can you show were the rules are different?

  71. “WRONG”

    No it’s not. It’s inconvenient for you but not wrong.

    “I can’t quote you chapter and verse, but that statement doesn’t pass the smell test.”

    From:

    https://thedeepstate.com/dossier-verified-fbi-carter-page-fisa-warrant/

    “The Deep State – News the Mainstream Media won’t show you”

    But national security experts and former FBI officials say that verification of each and every fact mentioned in FISA applications is not necessarily required.

    “Evidence presented to the court does not have to be rigorously proved or corroborated. But it does have to be plausible and credible — not just rumor or hearsay,” Steven Aftergood, the director of the Project on Government Secrecy for the Federation of American Scientists, told The Daily Caller News Foundation.

    The FBI can cite information that the bureau has not fully verified or corroborated as long as the source for the information is made clear and an assessment of the reliability of the information is included in the application.

    It is up to one of the judges sitting on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to decide if the evidence meets the standard of probable cause that a surveillance target is acting as an agent of a foreign power.

  72. From:

    https://www.justsecurity.org/61861/note-fisa-verification/

    More fundamentally, though, much of the commentary claiming some clear breach of protocol in the Carter Page FISA simply misunderstands what it means to say that a FISA application has been “verified.” It does not mean that every tip provided by a source has been independently corroborated. Rather, “verification” refers to the process laid out in the so-called “Woods procedures,” which require Justice Department officials to verify that representations made in a submission to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court match the information in the FBI’s investigative files. If the application relies upon a source for some claim, does the documentation in the case file support that the source actually said what the application presents the source as saying? In this case, then, “verification” would not mean the FBI had necessarily tracked down Steele’s own sources to corroborate his reporting. Rather, it would require that someone “verify” that when the application summarized what Steele had told the FBI, it did so accurately.

  73. Rosenstein gives a brief but good description of the fact about FISA applications having to be verified and the penalties if they aren’t in the clip above.

    The FISA Court is a secret court setup to catch terrorists To avoid exposure and to allow our intelligence agencies to be involved with the FBI. The court has stricter rules.

    Also Steele had been FIRED from the FBI before this for leaking and losing his security clearance. He is was not credible which means you have a fake document created by a disgraced source. There is nothing to hang your hat on.

  74. It was verified. As per the two links I’ve posted in my previous two posts. It was verified.

  75. ” He is was not credible which means you have a fake document created by a disgraced source.”

    Prove that it was fake.

  76. “Also Steele had been FIRED from the FBI”

    He wasn’t. Not least because Steele legally couldn’t work for the FBI. Only US Citizens can do so.

  77. Patrick and I are good Americans. We know our rights. I myself watch cops shows! 🙂

  78. The case still wouldn’t be FISA bound. FISA warrant investigations can’t be opened “solely on the basis of First Amendment activities,” so mere fraternization, even with sketchy people, wouldn’t be enough. The FBI would have to gather evidence to support a the claim that the U.S. target was knowingly working on behalf of a foreign entity. This could include information gathered from other methods like human sources, physical surveillance, bank transactions or even documents found in the target’s trash. This takes some time, and, when enough evidence had been accumulated, would be outlined in an affidavit and application stating the grounds for the FISA warrant. The completed FISA application would go up for approval through the FBI chain of command, including a Supervisor, the Chief Division Counsel (the highest lawyer within that FBI field office), and finally, the Special Agent in Charge of the field office, before making its way to FBI Headquarters to get approval by (at least) the Unit-level Supervisor there. If you’re exhausted already, hang on: There’s more.

    The FISA application then travels to the Justice Department where attorneys from the National Security Division comb through the application to verify all the assertions made in it. Known as “Woods procedures” after Michael J. Woods, the FBI Special Agent attorney who developed this layer of approval, DOJ verifies the accuracy of every fact stated in the application. If anything looks unsubstantiated, the application is sent back to the FBI to provide additional evidentiary support – this game of bureaucratic chutes and ladders continues until DOJ is satisfied that the facts in the FISA application can both be corroborated and meet the legal standards for the court. After getting sign-off from a senior DOJ official (finally!), a lawyer from DOJ takes the FISA application before the FISC, comprised of eleven federal district judges who sit on the court on a rotating basis. The FISC reviews the application in secret, and decides whether to approve the warrant.

    Please read the “Woods procedures”

  79. Steele was “suspended and then terminated” as an FBI source for what the bureau defined “as the most serious of violations” – an “unauthorized disclosure to the media of his relationship with the FBI.”

  80. It’s hard to believe that this dodgy dossier made it through all those levels to get to the FISC.

  81. Look Yates, McCabe, Comey, and Rosenstein are all under criminal investigation for this by the recommendation of the IG.

  82. it’s all a house of cards built out of fruit from the poisonous tree

  83. As I have said before…..

    The Clinton case violated the Law, the Fisa case violated the Law.

    I have no delusions like some here that either Hillary or Trump will ever be prosecuted.

    My whole concern is the corruption of the FBI/DOJ they MUST be prosecuted.

  84. Nothing worse than a dirty cop…

  85. Christopher Steele is a highly regarded ex MI 6 agent. MI 6 are the best, or next to the best, in the business of spying. Several top US security agents worked with him over many years. There are good reasons why he is considered credible. STeele is a proven professional, not some right-wing nutjob web scribbler.

    Furthermore, many of the claims made in the Steele dossier have been verified. I have not heard if the urination one has been verified or not, thus my original question. Now, if you can cite a credible source of it being proved false, please do so. If not, your entire post goes down the drain based on your poisonous tree doctrine.

  86. NY’er, you can’t prove a negative. How do you prove something didn’t happen?

  87. That’s The point

    Not proven, not disproven

  88. Furthermore, many of the claims made in the Steele dossier have been verified.

    name one

  89. Phantom, on January 19th, 2019 at 3:42 PM Said: Edit Comment
    That’s The point

    Not proven, not disproven

    that is the point…. due to that the dossier should not have been in the FISA application making it invalid and the poisonous tree.

  90. Steele claimed Michael Cohen met with Russian handlers in Prague in August 2016. “On Thursday, McClatchy reported that Eastern European intelligence discovered Cohen’s cell phone was in proximity to a cell phone tower in the Prague area.” Cohen is due to testify in Congress starting February 7th and will probably be asked about this Prague meeting.

    Now, where is your back-up disproving the urination in Moscow claim?

  91. Luckily, under American jurisprudence, the accused doesn’t have to disprove anything. It is up to the State to prove the allegation beyond a reasonable doubt. Sheesh!

  92. Charles

    If you read the thread you will realize this is questioning a statement PVR made. It is a query on a blog statement not a legal matter. Hope that clears it up for you.

    BTW, have you seen any terrorists with prayer mats walking around El Paso?

  93. NY’er, LOL, no, no prayer mats in my front yard!

  94. Steele claimed Michael Cohen met with Russian handlers in Prague in August 2016. “On Thursday, McClatchy reported that Eastern European intelligence discovered Cohen’s cell phone was in proximity to a cell phone tower in the Prague area.” Cohen is due to testify in Congress starting February 7th and will probably be asked about this Prague meeting.

    One problem his cell phone might have been there but his passport says otherwise…. I know he was given a secret Identity by the Russians, but he took his phone anyway…

    From now on will call him Morocco Mole.

  95. You act like Cohen hasn’t been charged. He’s done, his case is finished Mueller got him on on his little dirty deals, but Mueller ignored the fact that he has two passports, where he got the second passport etc etc and didn’t charge him with several major felonies because he’s really Mueller’s secret weapon, a special agent…. Morocco Mole

  96. As for this not being a legal matter NYr which part?

  97. What second passport did he have?

    Lots of people have two passports. Lots of people have two valid US passports. Some people have a US passport, as well as a valid passport from another country.

    There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that.

  98. he doesn’t Phantom……..

    You can have a second passport in your name if you’ve changed over to the new ones or needed a replacement…. you can have a second passport if you have dual citizenship…..

    They all however are connected…. and it was proven Cohen was never in Prague by his passport records.

  99. https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2018/12/11/mueller_files_undercut_cohens_infamous_appointment_in_prague.html

    I’m sure Real Clear is a rightwing blog also……..

  100. A number of Muslim nation’s Won’t let you into their country if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport

    The US will issue a second valid US passport on request for those folks, to get around that boycott

  101. but the US government still keeps track of where you’ve been. It’s all recorded no matter where you go.

  102. Read the Real Clear story Phantom.

  103. Yes, to an extent

    If an American Enters the UK on a US passport, and then from there travels to some third places on a second passport, the US won’t necessarily won’t know about all that travel

    Lots of Americans still travel to Cuba from third countries without Cuba stamping their US passport, without the US knowing about it.

  104. PVR

    “As for this not being a legal matter NYr which part?” The part where you claim the urination story was proved false.

    Cohen and Prague – so his cellphone was there, did someone take it from NY to Prague? Did he not notice it was missing, notify the carrier and and cancel service? If your cellphone is misplaced, do you call the carrier? Has his passport with the date Steele says he met with the Russians in Prague show he was somewhere else? Can you provide a link to an image of the passport? Is it possible the Russians have the ability to amke US passports? The most likely thing is that Cohen was in Prague when STeele said he was. As I said, his Congressional testimony is imminent.

  105. What say you Dems about the President’s “Olive Branch” Speech?

    I think it contained many sound suggestions like DACA extension, however I think Pelosi will be underwhelmed!

  106. Before his speech Pelosi said it was a nonstarter and, as usual, she is right. DACA has to be permanent not extended. 5.7 billion should not be wasted. He has created a mess at the border and offers no solution to the mess. Zero-tolerance was a bad policy. Trump and his people have no ability to handle these matters properly. Before he put forth any proposals he should have consulted with Democrats; instead he tried to shove his absurdities down their throat. If he had consulted beforehand, he would have gotten some good ideas and could have discussed numbers before going public; and, that is a much more successful way of governing.

    I think we have heard enough from Trump. He mostly tells lies and is clueless on policy. He is an annoying irrelevance.

  107. I thank you for your response New Yorker, but disagree with your assessment.

    DACA has to be permanent not extended.

    Actually I could go for that, in exchange for the wall of course.

  108. Permanent legal status for current illegals wrongly shipped by their parents doesn’t permanently fix this problem, and it creates new problems

    If they are legalized as of February 1, what happens to new “ dreamers “ who arrive in the US – and there will be more of them, even if you build ten walls – after February 1? They won’t be legal. What about them?

    If current “ dreamers “ are legalized, does this mean that none of their parents can be deported? After all it would be “ inhumane “ to split up a family, if one of them was an anchor legal resident.

  109. Phantom, such is the case with the Democrats. How do you negotiate with them without giving in to some of their incentivizing ideas? Assuming that Trump will have to give into some of their demands, giving legal status to 700,000 DACA recipients seems small potatoes to get a permanent barrier.

    NY’er says “ 5.7 billion should not be wasted

    I always find it rich that tax and spend Democrats suddenly become fiscal hawks over chump change!

  110. The Democratic Party has devolved into a pro illegal immigration party

    That’s not hyperbole, that’s the truth

  111. NYr if Cohen was in Prague why were the only charges Mueller’s investigation charged him with that had to do with Trump were 2 fake FEC violations?

    You used to be a more logical thinker, until now I didn’t know your suffered from TDS so badly.

  112. Trump Speech is up for all to make their own evaluations.

  113. Thank you for that Patrick!

  114. PVR

    I seem to recall Cohen was also charged with lying. A liar lies – is that logical enough for you?

    Phantom

    All dreamers, current and future, should be made permanent. The numbers are minuscule and the US needs the population numbers considering demographic projections. Our history is one of much illegal immigration, but mostly white European. Between the two world wars there were a very large number of European illegal immigrants, many went to Canada and just took a ferry into the US and disappeared into the general population. Finally, it would not be ideal if we got the reputation of being anti-immigrant.

    Charles

    I don’t think 5.7 billion is chump change for a political stunt. We have already spent zillions on the border especially on border agents who apparently are not doing a very good job. I think taxes should be fair not high. When I spend money I like to get value for it. 5.7 billion for a boondoggle is not value. You guys down on the border always have your hand in the pocket of us New Yorkers, we get much less than a dollar for every dollar we pay in tax. There is no good reason why NY continues to be ripped off on taxes when workshy states lay back and collect benefits. You guys need more get up and go, improve your economy and pony up on taxes.

  115. border agents who apparently are not doing a very good job.

    Brother, That’s a fairly insane statement. Never heard anyone on either side of this issue say such a thing.

    The underresourced border agents by all accounts do a good job.

    Your first para ( legalize all futile illegal dreamers etc ) indicate your hostility to the mission of the border agents in the first place.

    Like I said, the Dems are now an Open Borders Party. This is a new and highly pernicious development

  116. There is no good reason why NY continues to be ripped off on taxes when workshy states lay back and collect benefits. You guys need more get up and go, improve your economy and pony up on taxes.

    Texas workshy?? Hell, all we do is work. Texas has a great economy, with no state income tax and a $2 billion surplus. I think your beef is with your governor and/or De Blasio.

    The underresourced border agents by all accounts do a good job.

    Agreed Phantom, they do a great job keeping us safe. And at this point, having missed 2 paychecks.

  117. Some states are net takers, I very much doubt the Texas is one of them

    Often, Calculations will include the cost of things like military bases in a state as aid to that state by the feds – Which is completely wrong

    And Texas has a lot of military bases

  118. Phantom

    I’ve read about many people sneaking across the border and not being stopped by border guards. There seems to be an endless demand for more money for border guards in the last few years. I think there are at least 20,000 of them. Then Trump sent 5-10,000 troops to assist them. That is an awful lot of personnel. We are spending lots of revenue on the border and I doubt it is being well spent. Also, there are quite a few law suits against them for their behavior.

    What do you mean by open borders? We have restrictions on how many people can enter each year and I’m not aware of any serious person advocating scrapping that system. I do think that there needs to be tolerance and acting humanely in regard to the southern border. Zero-tolerance introduced by Sessions was wrong and has caused atrocious conditions.

    Charles

    Texans per head contribute $8,422 and New Yorkers $10,279 to the federal budget. Why should there be any difference?

    If Texas is not workshy, maybe Texas is not work smart. I’ve only been in Texas a few times but I have noticed there is something of a Southern slowness there. I think Texas needs to pony up more per head to the federal budget, pay its fair share and not take from states like NY. Are there many people in Texas who get federal benefits of one type or another?

    I have no beef with our governor or mayor on this issue.

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