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Bible Blasphemy

By Phantom On March 11th, 2019

Every so often you see something that you would have never thought possible the day before.

This is one of those things.

The other day, in Alabama, Donald Trump was seen autographing bibles for star-struck followers.

Who is more guilty of blasphemy, Mr. Trump or the person who sought the autograph?

“I’d never sign someone else’s Bible,” said Southern historian Wayne Flynt, a Baptist deacon and professor emeritus at Auburn University. “That’s right next to sacrilege. That’s a holy book.”

But Flynt wasn’t surprised Trump was signing Bibles. “There is nothing that shames the president,” Flynt said.

He’s also not surprised Alabamians, who voted overwhelmingly for Trump, applauded the gesture. “He is for many a messianic figure, which is unbelievable – ‘No need for Jesus, we have Donald,’” Flynt said.

Trump Signs Bibles in Alabama

268 Responses to “Bible Blasphemy”

  1. Look, how many times does it need to be said.

    Americans, a Bible in one hand, a gun in the other, what could possibly be more dangerous.

    Take a Muslim fundamentalist with a Quran in one hand and an AK47 in the other.

    Religion is an illness, its mass hysteria for the weak minded amongst us.

  2. But Flynt wasn’t surprised Trump was signing Bibles. “There is nothing that shames the president,” Flynt said.

    Shock,horror?

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing, which shames any politician.

    They really are all, the absolute dregs of society.

  3. Apparently he isn’t the first President to do so. While I don’t think the practice is necessarily proper I think it is more of a decorum issue than anything else. I also think he was asked to do it and accommodated people who wanted it.

  4. Question.

    If someone has so much faith in a God, why would they need an AR15 to back it up?

  5. Which other presidents autographed bibles?

    I can see signing your own copy, but autographing another person’s, as a souvenir?

    It’s kind of a desecration.

    I could not possibly see Jimmy Carter doing this.

  6. I also think he was asked to do it and accommodated people who wanted it.

    George Bush: ‘God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq’

    Err, no he didn’t.

    What George Bush actually did, was feed the weak minded.

    And it worked a treat.

  7. It’s kind of a desecration.

    Its a kind of feeding the mass hysteria weak minded masses.

  8. Phantom – I haven’t researched the subject but did see a Washington Post article that said Reagan and one of the Bush’s did and it appears Obama may have for MLK’s family.

  9. George Bush: ‘God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq. So I gave the country to the Iran loving Shiites. What could go wrong?”

  10. I see Reagan inscribed one when giving it as a gift

  11. Phantom, on March 11th, 2019 at 5:43 PM Said:
    George Bush: ‘God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq. So I gave the country to the Iran loving Shiites. What could go wrong?”

    They laughably believed God would help?

  12. Phantom, on March 11th, 2019 at 5:46 PM Said:
    I see Reagan inscribed one when giving it as a gift

    The template remains the same.

  13. “I see Reagan inscribed one when giving it as a gift”

    On a page designed for writing an inscription.

    Not a massive scrawl on the cover.

  14. I like GWB as a person, but they should have locked him in the nuthouse for a couple of weeks after he said that

  15. Fews

    disrespect

  16. I wonder what the Bible says on marriage and fidelity?

  17. Phantom, on March 11th, 2019 at 5:49 PM Said:
    I like GWB as a person, but they should have locked him in the nuthouse for a couple of weeks after he said that

    Phantom.

    Particularly in the States, the Bible is just another tool in the political toolbox, when other blatant political lies fail, reach for the Bible, that usually does the trick.

    The “fear of God” works a treat each and every time.

  18. You shall have no other gods before Me.
    You shall make no idols.
    You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
    Keep the Sabbath day holy.
    Honor your father and your mother.
    You shall not murder.
    You shall not commit adultery.
    You shall not steal.
    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    You shall not covet.

    Trump keeps all ten of these. Trust me.

  19. Paul McMahon, on March 11th, 2019 at 5:54 PM Said:
    I wonder what the Bible says on marriage and fidelity?

    Paul

    These people don’t really give a shit what the Bible says about infidelity, until it suits them.

  20. Phantom.

    “Though shall not kill”

    How is that working out for mighty America, who have invaded more countries than the Vikings.

    And killed countless millions.

  21. Ultimately I don’t have a problem with this. Other Presidents have done it before (though it would appear as individual gifts for people close to them – Obama for the King family, Roosevelt for his AG etc… – rather than at a campaign stop). I would point out however the hypocrisy of one of the least Christian political leaders in recent memory signing Bibles. That the owners of those Bibles felt that this was appropriate would probably suggest that they are the sort of faux Christian that Trump is.

  22. You shall not murder.

    Unless its carried out by a drone.

    Then that don’t count.

  23. ” Though shalt not murder ”

    Killing is absolutely allowed in certain circumstances.

  24. Phantom.

    But not for oil, or regime change I assume?

  25. “Killing is absolutely allowed in certain circumstances.”

    Thou many of the actions taken in war, and so legally justified, and legally not murder, would likely not meet the religious tests for justification. So Harri’s point is not without merit. Proportionality, last resort, etc… are often not met.

  26. *Though

    Got a little too religious fervour there.

  27. Phantom

    Nope..

    Its quite clear in the Ten Commandments.

    “Thou shalt not kill!”

    Not “Thou shall not kill unless in certain circumstances”

    What part of this “Thou shall not kill” that your almighty, all powerful God command’s do you not get?

  28. Technically it comes from the Hebrew word רצח. Or transliterated retzach. Translated it means murder, not kill.

    So the Ten Commandments do not actually carry the command ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and actually do carry the command ‘Thou shalt not murder’.

  29. watching this group discuss anything to do with Faith, Religion or theology is as fun as a Marx bros skit…..

  30. Oh I see God has joined the discussion 😉

  31. I give you your verse for the day Ezekiel 25:17

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAhRcUofDk

  32. The seven deadly sins

    pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth

  33. I prefer this version Patrick.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5X7gahWr1g

  34. If that’s referring to me Colm….. just call me Loki

  35. that was good Seamus….

  36. Patrick.

    If you have that much faith, why do you need a gun for protection?

  37. because I believe in Evil as well…….

  38. fews

    Our boy has all seven covered.

  39. The first time Trump saw a bible it was a personal copy sent by God himself down to The POTUS. It was enscribed with a note “ To my dearest Donald, yours humbly God “
    Trump wasn,t impressed. He read the book , well the first and last pages, then sent a copy of the ‘Art of the Deal’ back with a note saying “ Hey God, your book was a bit boring but thanks anyway. Now I bet you wish you’d written THIS “

  40. I have a copy of ” The Art of the Deal ”

    I actually bought the thing in hardcover back in the day

  41. before you caught TDS…..

  42. Patrick

    Not quite.

    Because your gun is real, and your faith in God is just an emotional indoctrinated crutch you can fall back on when your gun does the job.

    You have more faith in your metal man made sidearm than you really do in some all powerful God.

    I don’t have a sidearm, or a Bible, and I’m safe enough.

    Why has your God forsaken you?

  43. Phantom, on March 11th, 2019 at 6:52 PM Said:
    I have a copy of ” The Art of the Deal ”

    I actually bought the thing in hardcover back in the day

    Why?

    More fool you.

  44. Patrick Van Roy, on March 11th, 2019 at 6:51 PM Said:
    because I believe in Evil as well…….

    I don’t.

    So I assume that’s something else you can be concerned about, but me, not so much.

    Your God, most certainly works in mysterious wazys.

  45. I’ve had that guys number from long before he declared as a candidate.

    New Yorkers have long known what a con artist he has been

    You guys were mesmerized by ” The Apprentice “. That was never the real him.

  46. Harri

    Why?

    More fool you.

    Some here actually voted for Kardashian-Trump for president.

  47. New Yorkers have long known what a con artist he has been

    In fact, he was so much a con artist, some New Yorkers were daft enough to even buy his book?

    😏

  48. Patrick

    You are a God fearing man.

    So, the Almighty has commanded “Thou shall not kill”

    What part of that exactly, do you not Get?

  49. Hari, Hari, Hari…..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1xAUfdK9FE

  50. Harri

    That was quite a long time ago.

    Some of us learn.

    The rest of us voted for Trump.

  51. Patrick

    I find someone armed to the teeth holding a Bible disturbing.

  52. And Patrick

    You haven’t answered the simple question?

    So, the Almighty has commanded “Thou shall not kill”

    What part of that exactly, do you not Get?

    ?

  53. Oh give it a rest Harri. You are like an annoying little Jack Russell with a bone . You’ve made your point about God guns and faith about fifty times on this thread. no need to chew that bone into dust 😉

  54. Colm

    And what point is that exactly?

  55. I have forgotten your original point. I have fallen into a coma… 😁

  56. A present for Colm

  57. Colm

    You appear to be in a permanent coma?

    Take Patrick’s 19.05.

    Ironically Patrick is correct, there is more chance of Darth Vader existing, than this all powerful God, who gives out commandments to his avid followers, only to be ignored.

    😏

  58. Copms lucky night.

    Because I assume he doesn’t get many of them these days..

    https://goo.gl/images/q3QfpY

  59. *Colms

  60. These people don’t really give a shit what the Bible says about infidelity, until it suits them

    Yep, I don’t know if laughing or crying is apropriate for the absurd surrealness and supreme irony of the gullible getting one of the least Christian of American leaders to sign a sacred Christian book.

  61. Yep, I don’t know if laughing or crying is apropriate for the absurd surrealness and supreme irony of the gullible getting one of the least Christian of American leaders to sign a sacred Christian book.

    Precisely Paul

    The Bible is just the tool of last resort to fool the gullible.

    And it works a treat.

  62. There are a lot of humble and sincere Christians out there.

    I’m not sure that they’d be the ones asking for their bibles to be vandalized in that fashion

  63. Actally, I was referring more to the group of airheads getting an immoral, lying charlatan to sign a book held in the highest of esteem by billions rather than the book itself.

    I’d like to have faith but nothing I’ve been presented with has convinced me of its validity. It’s a terrifying thought to think that the area of the universe is so vast that it’s unfathonable to the human mind and that we, a millionith the size of a pinprick, are the only intelligent life in it. In those terms I can understand the need for a belief in ‘God’ as the all powerful superior being.

    Belief in God’s not for me, even though I wish it was, but I’m not arrogant enough to definitively believe that ‘God’ doesn’t exist. IMO, if some find a belief in ‘God’ a comfort or a crutch in difficult times then that in itself is justification enough for that belief irrespective of how correct or incorrect it may be.

  64. “watching this group discuss anything to do with Faith, Religion or theology is as fun as a Marx bros skit…..”

    Agree. I expect more from the Irish with all of their catechism training. 🙂

  65. Phantom

    If Trump managed to scupper a planned ABBA reunion tour you’d probably become a bigger fan of his than Patty

    MAGA MAGA MAGA 😁

  66. And up she pops !

  67. Would you have your Bible signed by El Trumpo if the opportunity arose Patty?

  68. Phantom: in case you are unaware, people have often signed Bibles. I have in my possession a 100 year old Bible signed as follows:

    “Presented to Andrew & Adelia as a wedding present in 1864, by her father Rev. Wm. Round who married them at N. Y. on June 11, 1865”

    President Trump as provided Christians a safe-haven – more or less – we can now say “Merry Christmas” again and I think, therefore, some Christians consider a Bible signed by POTUS a real honor.

  69. Paul

    If Patty offered her Bible for signing, Trump would say “ listen fanatical fan lady I’ve already signed your tits and ass, step aside and give someone else a chance “ 😁😁

  70. And Phantom, in several Bible studies, I have been instructed to write in my Bible, to mark it up and in fact, I was gifted a set of colored pencils to be used specifically for this in my study of 1 Peter.

    Perhaps I’m wrong but I get the impression that as a young boy, you studied the Bible – or at least opened it – in the tutelage of nuns and other adults who urged you not to write in it or destroy it in any way.

    Someday, you should take an adult Bible study class and learn what it holds for you.

  71. I think that we are speaking of two different types of signatures.

    Something that is personal and meaningful, as in a present, is a little different than a jotted autograph from a celebrity who will never know the name of the recipient.

  72. President Trump as provided Christians a safe-haven – more or less – we can now say “Merry Christmas” again

    You don’t think his serial philandering and lying to be somewhat contrary to what the Good Book teaches and somewhat more serious that people allegedly not being able to wish each other Merry Cristmas?

  73. “we can now say “Merry Christmas” again “

    When and where were you not able to?

  74. The Bible would be completely meaningless for Trump. His life has pretty much been spent in violent opposition to everything that Jesus said.

    He has formed a cynical alliance with evangelicals.

  75. I’m not into celebrity and I don’t even bother to get books signed at events where the speaker is available after to sign stuff. Although I did get Andrew Breitbart’s signature one time, on his book.

    On second thought, I would get Trump’s signature on a MAGA hat and maybe a Bible – if I had one on hand that wasn’t all marked up with my notes. I think anything signed by Trump will one day be worth a fortune.

    MAGA and God bless President Trump!

  76. Maybe in your MAGA discussions with Trump and his wall you can ask him to read Matthew 25 from your Bible.

  77. Seamus, we couldn’t say “Merry Christmas!” during the War on Christmas, a protracted battle that continues to rage underground and still bubbles up to the surface, last time was around 8 years before POTUS Trump.

  78. “Seamus, we couldn’t say “Merry Christmas!” during the War on Christmas, a protracted battle that continues to rage underground and still bubbles up to the surface, last time was around 8 years before POTUS Trump.”

    In what way could you not say Merry Christmas? What was stopping you?

  79. “I think that we are speaking of two different types of signatures”

    You called Trump’s signature “blasphemy” – which is ridiculous.

    Also, some people – not you, of course – love POTUS Trump and pray for him, his family and his Presidency. His signature is an honor for them.

    God bless President Trump and God bless America.

  80. Seamus: “What was stopping you?”

    the War on Christmas

  81. I’ve always said ” Merry Christmas ”

    ” Happy Holidays ” is vapid and meaningless. Better to say nothing than to say that.

    I know a lot of Jewish folks, and I name their holidays when I wish them well at those times.

  82. “the War on Christmas”

    What was stopping you? Was there a law passed that Trump has repealed? An Executive Order? What was stopping you saying Merry Christmas?

  83. As the Americans here would know ” The War on Christmas ” is a Fox News invention.

    Bill O’Reilly would talk about it all the time.

  84. https://twitter.com/barackobama/status/415928561485094912

  85. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7mTRaUmaE

  86. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJOUin0dLII

  87. And here we have it with Seamus as Exhibit A.

    This is how the liberal/progressive mind works.

  88. Last time was around 8 years before POTUS Trump

    This photograph of a street sign in Greesbro NC taken in 2016, when Trunp was President Elect, would beg to disagree Patty:

    https://www.alamy.com/merry-christmas-greensboro-north-carolina-usa-image154125127.html

  89. “This is how the liberal/progressive mind works.”

    What with facts and logic?

    Sure that is how the liberal, progressive mind works. Thanks.

  90. For God’s sake, Phantom, Seamus knows there is no signed Declaration of War on Christmas.

    He read Dr. Seuss’s The Gringe Who Stole Christmas. He knows metaphor when he sees it.

    He also knows that the only way he can succeed justifying his nonsense opinions is to attribute nonsense to the opposition and then accuse the other of “lies” and what-not. Boring beyond belief.

    Just as you know that signing a Bible is standard procedure. You can pretend that you are outraged. Shocked! Shocked! ….but you’re not.

  91. “He also knows that the only way he can succeed justifying his nonsense opinions is to attribute nonsense to the opposition and then accuse the other of “lies” and what-not. Boring beyond belief.”

    Ok. You are the one who claimed there was a war on Christmas stopping you from saying Merry Christmas. I asked for details. You provided none. I provided evidence of President Obama wishing people a Merry Christmas.

    And now you are throwing a hissy fit.

  92. This is how the liberal/progressive mind works

    By not being gullible enough to swallow blatant lies untruths?

  93. Patty

    The Baptist deacon in Alabama does not agree with you.

    Celebrity Bible signings at campaign style events is something new and degrading under the sun.

  94. He knows metaphor when he sees it

    So, are you now saying that you actually could say Merry Christmas?

    What point was your ‘metaphor’ trying to make?

  95. “By not being gullible enough to swallow blatant lies untruths?”

    OMG! good one, Paul!! you are following prescribed liberal behavior! lol. now what?

    more faux outrage? OMG. can you get any more predictable?

  96. A metaphor is normally symbolic of something else. So Patty what was your (piss poor attempt of a) metaphor about? What did your metaphor symbolise?

  97. No Paul, I am saying that there was an actual War on Christmas. That someone tried to assassinate Father Christmas and that there was the famous Burning of the Christmas Trees that lasted for over 6 months, well into the summer solstice.

    In your case, I fear that you are not feigning disingenuous ignorance but you might actually be serious so I’ll add this, in case… /s

  98. Trump IS Christmas 🎄

  99. Seamus, I don’t think you are up on current events and it would take too much time to explain. It doesn’t matter either because POTUS Trump (or God Emperor Trump, as some like to call him) helped the Christians win The War on Christmas and so we’re all good now.

  100. Colm, exactly! (wish I knew how to get a Christmas Tree emoji)

  101. “I don’t think you are up on current events and it would take too much time to explain.”

    Otherwise translated as you are talking bollocks.

    So go on. I’m pretty caught up on most current events. So what is your “metaphor” symbolic of?

  102. They’ve legalised Cannabis in California… which probably explains Patty’s weird comments this evening 😉

  103. “The Baptist deacon in Alabama” disagrees with me? He thinks it’s blasphemy to sign a Bible? hogwash.

    but even if this is true – and I don’t think it is – so what. I don’t agree with him.

  104. Seamus, you’re talking bollocks. You ARE bollocks.

  105. “They’ve legalised Cannabis in California… which probably explains Patty’s weird comments this evening 😉”

    Either that or someone has knicked the communion wine.

  106. Patty

    Somehow, I’m not sure how, when I type in certain words on my I Pad the on screen keyboard displays appropriate emojis. That’s how the Christmas one pos up when I type that word. I’m not sure how you find them otherwise.

  107. “Seamus, you’re talking bollocks. You ARE bollocks.”

    You are the one who’s made up a mythical war on Christmas., only to change your mind half way through and say it is a metaphor, but in no way shape or form can explain what it is a metaphor of.

  108. Just google it, Seamus. Try not to believe all the Lefty spin when you read about it. There are/were two sides.

  109. Seamus

    You are the dogs bollocks !

    N.B. Patty – that’s a compliment over this side of the pond.

  110. “Just google it, Seamus.”

    Google what? War on Christmas?

    Top result:

    The so-called “War on Christmas” (or, less sensationally, the Christmas controversy) is a right-wing demagogic neologism referring to alleged secular attempts to keep the December solstice holiday shopping season culturally inclusive. It sets the standard by which all other manufactroversies may be judged, and is most famously fought every year by none other than now-former Fox News Channel contributor Bill O’Reilly.

  111. Colm, probably an iPad feature. I’m on a laptop.

  112. Patty

    Go on tell us how St Donald stopped Father Christmas from being assassinated and how he put the Christmas tree fires out single handed. He probably even gave Tiny Tim his best Christmas ever too 🎄🎄🎄🎄

  113. Colm, so if I say to my Irish friends here in Los Angeles: “you are the dogs’ bollocks!” they will be happy?

  114. I’m just joking around, btw. I have no Irish friends in LA

  115. Patty

    Say it to your English friends. They will love you for ever.. 🐶 🏀 🎾

  116. It would depend. Actual Irish people will get it and take it as a compliment. I have no idea if American “Irish” would get it.

  117. what’s a “bollocks?” anyway…..

  118. Testicles

  119. Seamus

    I think Patty,s winding you up.

  120. I don’t know. I don’t think bollocks is a word used by the Americans.

  121. Aww.. that was sweet. I was winding him up and now I am ashamed of myself.

    In penance – serious now – I’ll tell you a story. A true story.

    I had a friend/acquaintance who was a wanna-be Christian, married to an atheist- activist. She told me that every Sunday, her retired husband and 7-8 of his like-minded friends met in the local coffee shop and planned activism against Christian displays. They would do things like start petitions and phone call trees to take down public crosses or nativity scenes. She told me that she wanted to go to church but couldn’t tell her husband. She was waiting for his demise, or something…and at that point, she would go to church.

    Typical confused Californian, imo.

  122. If there is something that you are doing that you are too ashamed to tell the significant people in your life about it then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. She needs to have it out with he husband. If he can’t stand the fact that she is religious then maybe they shouldn’t be married.

  123. She’s a socialist…so there’s that.

    Typical Californian – confused.

  124. Ah I get it now Patty, you’re being sarcastic about your ‘War On Christmas’ ‘metaphor’ in order to try to mask your foolisness with satire case I didn’t understand what you meant?

    Except that I didn’t mention the WOC at all and you are arguing with yourself.

    This is what I asked:

    So, are you now saying that you actually could say Merry Christmas?

    What point was your ‘metaphor’ trying to make?

    So why not alleviate my non disingenuous ignorance and put me in my place?

    Much like the idol you worship himself, when so easily caught out on such an absolutely preposterous untruth you don’t have the base personal integrity never mind humility to throw your hands up and admit you were talking bollocks.

    I think that if you have a look in that signed Bible you allegedly have in your possession it might say something about both bearing false witness and the sin of pride.

  125. Nothing confused about being a Christian Socialist. Christ was one.

  126. Paul, we don’t see eye to eye. That much is clear.

    I enjoy a laugh, a little banter. I think God Emperor Trump is hilarious.

    One of my favorite moments was when he posted himself diving into a taco bowl from the Trump Tower cafe. It was funny because the Left was going bananas over his criticism of Mexicans coming illegal across the US Southern border. The MSM tried to shut him up by shaming him over his so-called racism – and what’s more racists then a taco bowl?

    See, I think it’s funny. I know you don’t see anything funny here. at all.

    We have to just agree to disagree.

  127. And his taco bowl joke was useful – it wasn’t just for a laugh. It opened up the conversation about illegal immigration – what’s too much? what’s not enough? A conversation/argument that we are still having, btw – but at least Trump “put it on the table” – before Trump, it was the Globalist way, or the highway.

    So, if you like Globalists policies, then you hate Trump. I get that. But, try a little to see his sense of humor.

    The Left is into shaming – and Trump has the cajones (or “bollocks,” if you prefer) to ignore it.

  128. Christ was not a socialist.

  129. We have to just agree to disagree

    Okay, I agree that you were telling lies when you said Americans couldn’t say Merry Christmas and disagree that there was some ‘War on Christmas’…….’metaphorical’ or otherwise.

    Nothing confused about being a Christian Socialist. Christ was one

    Game, set & match I think.

  130. Christ was not a socialist.

    Oooohhhhhhh. This is going to be fun 🙂

  131. Nor was Christ a doormat.

    “I agree that you were telling lies when you said Americans couldn’t say Merry Christmas and disagree that there was some ‘War on Christmas’…….’metaphorical’ or otherwise.”

    so, i politely say “agree to disagree” and you say I am a liar.

    what the hell is wrong with you?

  132. I said that you were telling untruths when you said that Americans couldn’t say Merry Christmas and that there was a (metaphorical or otherwise) ‘War On Christmas’

    There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m making a statement of fact.

    The moral is, if you don’t want to be exposed as being untruthful don’t invent untruths.

  133. I don’t agree with you.

  134. You’re entitled to disagree with me. You’re not entitled to disagree with fact though.

  135. Come on everyone. We can’t really be taking this thread seriously what with St Trump saving Christmas by jumping into a bowl of tacos swinging his dogs bollocks 😉

  136. As Paul says you can have a different point of view. You can’t argue with facts however. So either there is a war on Christmas or there isn’t a war on Christmas. There are two sides to it. The facts vs the fiction.

    “Christ was not a socialist.”

    John the Baptist: “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same”.

    “Blessed are you who are poor,
    for yours is the kingdom of God.

    Blessed are you who hunger now,
    for you will be satisfied.

    But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.

    Woe to you who are well fed now,
    for you will go hungry.”

    The man who said that was not a Socialist? How about this then: “Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

  137. Listen, in fairness Trump agreed to let God autograph his book in return.

  138. There is no war on Christmas but there certainly was and is a movement to eradicate or diminish it from American life.

  139. Listen, in fairness Trump agreed to let God autograph his book in return

    Bono’ll be none too happy about that then.

  140. There certainly was and is a movement to eradicate or diminish it from American life.

    Were Muricans allowed to say Happy Christmas during the Obama administration Mahons?

  141. Paul – there is no law saying otherwise. However there was undeniable pressure from groups to prevent that, to rename Christmas parties Holiday Parties, to remove symbols not only from the public square but from commercial ventures. Again it is a gross exaggeration to call it war.

  142. So Muricans could say Happy Christmas to each other during the Obama administration contrary to what Patty states above?

  143. Of course they could.

  144. They could but only in secret code in special underground meeting places after having been frisked to make sure they had no listening devices planted on them.

  145. I did think Obama feeding some of us Christians to the Lions was uncalled for, but what do you expect from a Kenyan?

  146. Are you Irish, McMahon? Don’t all Irish have a litte poetry in their genetic make-up?

  147. A Muslim Kenyan. Get it right Mahons 😉

  148. Haha! Good one, Mahons.

  149. Patty

    Are you engaging in politically incorrect ethno cultural stereotyping. Do you picture Paul Noel and Seamus as fiddle playing lilting poetry reciting Guinness swigging leprechauns 😉

  150. I only wish, Colm

  151. So, Seamus, regarding Christ as Socialist – you could have made a good point if you had provided the “render under Caesar” quote – but I don’t see anywhere in your comment reference to having the Government control the outcome and production of ones work.

  152. Of course they could

    That puts the issue t bed then.

    Don’t all Irish have a litte poetry in their genetic make-up?

    Allegedly.

    There was a young girl from the Valley
    Who with ‘War on Christmas’ thought she could dally
    She spoke plain untruth, so crass and uncouth
    Until her claims no one could swalley.

  153. Trump signed the bible covers with a sharpie! Beyond crass.

    I live in the Peoples Republic of Austin, we all say Merry Christmas to one another for weeks on end every winter (it gets tedious, along with all of the piped in music everywhere) and have multitudes of x-mas displays all over town – even un-vandalized manger scenes staged in front of churches and the state capitol. Simply shocking the damage this secularist war has waged on our Christmas spirit of comity and goodwill.

    One entire stretch of road has thousands of cedar trees decorated every year by individual citizens, no permit required. The city cleans up the debris after New Years. The war on x-mas is harsh in liberal land.

    I bet Patty died her hair orange.

  154. ” I don’t see anywhere in your comment reference to having the Government control the outcome and production of ones work.”

    I don’t see anything in the Bible that could be applied to modern policies or politics. But many people seem to give it a go. Christ preached a message of redistribution of wealth. Sure the means of doing so were different in 30AD than they are now. But the underlying message is there.

  155. I live in the Peoples Republic of Austin

    You some kinda damn pinko Commie?

  156. Paul: This is where you call Daphne a “liar” because she said she lived in the People’s Republic of Austin and there is no such place in reality.

  157. Aren’t we all ?

  158. No Patty because Daphne is clearly being sarcastic whereas you stated that Americans couldn’t say happy Christmas to each other and then tried to laugh it off when challenged on it.

    I’d imagine that if I asked Daphne was the People’s Republic of Austin an invented figment of her imagination she’d tell me yes of course it was and wouldn’t try to imply that I was ignorant by saying she wasn’t sure if I was feigning disingenuous ignorance or not.

  159. mmm….k.

    If you say so, Paul.

    Remember to play nicely and say grace before you eat.

    I’m off now.

  160. That’s what Austin is called by the rest of Texas. It’s a local colloquialism.

  161. A very liberal city that celebrates the hell out Christmas every damn year. Trail of Lights, anyone?

    Not a single war in sight on the Christian holiday.

  162. There are a number of Trump supporters here

    Many or all might own personal Bibles

    But I doubt that anybody here in their wildest dreams would want Trump or any politician to autograph that book

  163. Patty is very tidy in her religious and political hypocrisy.

  164. I own four, I wouldn’t mind shoving one or two down Trump’s god forsaken throat.

  165. Paul – nice poem, but usually at ATW we leave the swallowing jokes to Colm.

  166. There are many wonderful and devout people in our Southland whose religious beliefs I do not share but who are kind, sincere and would literally lay down their lives for a stranger in an instant. I would not like to see them lumped into the same group as certain hypocritical evangelicals.

  167. OK, the USA culture regarding Christianity is very different in some ways from that of the UK, so I admit that I don’t readily understand what all the furore is about, here.
    My father bought me a Bible several decades ago and he signed it as a gift, was that “blasphemy”? I fail to see how. Although I think I can see that the POTUS signing a Bible could be interpreted in a political way, as if to say “Hey, folks, I’m the POTUS and I endorse this book”. So perhaps Trump is open to such misinterpretation. On the other hand, Mueller is finding nothing at all, so hey we’ve got to find something, ANYTHING to fault Trump on.
    Parts of the New Testament, let us remember, were written or recounted by Peter, who denied Christ three times, and by Paul, who murdered Christians prior to his conversion.

  168. Brex,

    I suspect it’s the enormous hypocritical irony of an adulterer and liar signing a book on morality which makes people comment.

  169. A book all about loving thy neighbour being signed by a guy who describes his neighbours as rapists.

  170. All of that is correct, but there’s also what I think is the blasphemous idea, promoted by Trump’s goons, that he is a sort of gift from God. Some people fall for this.

    Sarah Sanders, asked by the Christian Broadcasting Network this week about Trump being the right man for the moment, replied: “I think God calls all of us to fill different roles at different times, and I think that he wanted Donald Trump to become president, and that’s why he’s there.”( WP )

    Some of the starstruck would actually see Trump as a messenger of God, a gift from God, an idea that he and his people explicitly encourage. That’s blasphemy.


    And I’ve never heard of any politician signing Bibles campaign-style for strangers. This I think is something new under the sun. Imagine how the usual fakes would have reacted if Obama had done anything like that.

  171. Daphne, on March 11th, 2019 at 10:50 PM Said:
    I own four, I wouldn’t mind shoving one or two down Trump’s god forsaken throat.

    the voice of a true christian……

  172. Trump as God’s choosen one is not unheard of as a claim among certain of his supporters.

  173. before I get into the ridiculousness of this lot judging others on religion I have to share this….. just for fun..

    The layoffs came after New York Media, the parent company of New York magazine, reportedly decided in February against a sale or outside investment after exploring opportunities.
    The cuts also came after staffers unionized with the NewsGuild of New York in December.
    In November 2018, New York magazine implemented a paywall on its website. And in January, longtime editor-in-chief Adam Moss announced he was departing the company. David Haskell was named as his successor.

    The perfect storm They start charging people for access on the net…. their workers UNIONIZE they try to sell it and now they lay off half the people……. roflmao

  174. Pat thinks that Trump is God’s newfangled prophet.

    This should be funny,

  175. My questions for those above…..

    When was the last time you read your bible ?

    How many of you attend mass weekly ?

  176. No answers to the above would explain away Trump’s blasphemous and disrespectful conduct.

  177. no I think Trump is a Carney Barker who is doing a better job as as President than Hillary Clinton ever could.

  178. seriously Phantom.

    When was the last time you read your bible ?

    How often do you attend mass ?

  179. He is a liar, a thief and an adulterer.

    And you guys worship him as Christ 2.0.

    Not one word of serious criticism from any of you over two years.

  180. Where is it written that it’s blasphemous or disrespectful to write on a bible ?

  181. For two years you have promoted lies about the man.

    He’s as clean as clean can be he has had every aspect of his life investigated for two years and not one crime has been found.

  182. It is written here that it is blasphemous for a liar and thief who sells himself as a gift from god to use a bible like a cheap prop.

  183. No one here has said Trump walks on water, but other like you have sworn he has a tail and carries a pitchfork.

    so answer the questions…..

    When was the last time you read your bible ?

    How often do you attend mass ?

  184. Bite me.

  185. ahhh so never……

  186. //When was the last time you read your bible ?//

    Patrick, the Bible – right from the start and to the very end – is peppered with errors, contradictions and plain nonsense.

    It’s certainly a very interesting book, but there are many interesting books.

  187. So here we have a pack of heathens being led by a deranged sufferer of TDS displaying faux outrage over the fact that people who actually carry their bibles asked the President to sign them…..

    You’re all suffering from varying psychosis.

  188. Noel so now you are going to judge the Bible?

    Do you believe in God Noel?

  189. hmmm no answer.

  190. //Do you believe in God Noel?//

    To paraphrase Israeli PM Gola Meyer:

    I believe in humanity, and humanity believes in God.

    //Noel so now you are going to judge the Bible?//

    Everyone can judge any book.

    Patrick, which account of creation in the Bible do you think is true?

  191. none of them Noel.

    The Bible is a history book and book of parables and moral lessons. A conglomeration of the Torah, prophesies, oral and transcribed history passed down for several 1000 years.

    God created the Universe in 6 days. How long is a day for God?

  192. So nothing means anything.

    Very good.

  193. //none of them Noel. //

    So you don’t believe the Bible or that it is the word of God.
    Interesting.

  194. now that’s blasphemy.

  195. The history and the stories in the bible were written by men. There are 1000s of stories. The book we call the bible today is an edited version. The stories included in it were decided in a conference in rome.

    I believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in Angels and Demons, and I believe in the soul.

    The Bible is the oldest history book that deals with not just mans history but the history of these beings interacting with Humanity.

  196. The story of creation in the Bible is patently not true. It is parable, about how God created the universe. But beyond that there is no actual truth in it. There was never two humans, and only two humans, called Adam and Eve.

  197. “The stories included in it were decided in a conference in rome.”

    Actually in Trent, a then German city in what is today northern Italy.

  198. got my location wrong but you knew what I meant

  199. I think the Bible as a religious text is acceptable. As a history book it is not, not least because it in no way shape or form accurately records history.

    Jesus, for example, according to the Gospel of Saint Matthew, was born during the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC. He also, according to the Gospel of Saint Luke, was born during the governorship of Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, who became Legatus of Syria in 6 AD.

    So according to the Bible Christ couldn’t have been born after 4 BC, but also couldn’t have been born before 6 AD. Which is impossible. As a historical text the Bible is wrong. There is no two ways about it. It literally cannot be correct (unless Jesus was a time traveller – which would have provided for a much more interesting nativity play).

  200. I tried to read some of the Old Testament once. It was as unreadable as Ayn Rand’s hogwash theories.

    I highly doubt that anyone here has read it all, even the barstool popes.

  201. I’m a bit more of a New Testament man myself Phantom.

  202. Yes.

  203. Trying to put exact dates on anything 500yrs in the past is impossible even with modern technology to hold exact dates to stories that have been translated from languages that no longer exist is asking a bit much.

  204. We know when Herod the Great ruled. We know when Quirinius was the governor of Syria. It is based on the historical record, not on things like carbon dating. According to the Bible Christ was born during both events. There is no overlap between the two. So the only conclusion is the Bible is incorrect.

  205. I’ve read the bible, the torah, the Qumran texts, and I am working my way through the Koran and the Hadith.

    You want a very confusing read try the Qumran texts.

  206. The Koran is like something that a violent criminal wrote.

    We used to have a good laugh over it in the college dorm.

  207. I think the major interesting thing about the Dead Sea scrolls is how different they are from modern Judaism. The general belief has always been that Christianity emerged out of Judaism. In reality Judaism and Christianity both emerged out of a schism in Jewish thought in the 1st century AD, and neither resemble Judaism at the time.

  208. There is no evidence to suggest that a) Mohammad wrote the Qu’ran or b) that he was a violent criminal. In reality the Quranic depiction of Mohammad is no different from the Biblical depiction of say Joshua, or even Moses. Additionally most of the depictions of Mohammad would suggest that he was not out of place in the times he lived in.

  209. MONTGOMERY, Alabama (The Borowitz Report)—God has offered to give the people of Alabama brand new Bibles to replace the ones that Donald J. Trump signed during his visit to the state on Friday.

    In a rare public statement from the famously mysterious deity, God said that He was furious at Trump “for defacing My book,” calling Trump’s signature “a wanton act of vandalism.”

    “Where was Mike Pence in all of this?” God asked. “These people can’t do anything right.”

    God added that He was “dumbfounded” that Trump had taken it upon himself to sign his name on a book to which he had “no relationship whatsoever.”

    “I’ve got news for Trump: the Bible is not ‘The Art of the Deal,’ ” God said. “Of course, he didn’t write that book, either.”

  210. Mo was a violent maniac who massacred Jewish villagers.

    This hatred and violence was built in to the ROP since the earliest days. It is 100% structural.

  211. One good thing about the Bible is that it serves as a good reference point to mark how far followers of the various religions have strayed from their origins. It also provides a reasonably picture of how people lived thousands of years ago to people today who would otherwise have no idea of anything that happened more than 2 generations ago.

  212. //Mo was a violent maniac who massacred Jewish villagers.//

    Yes, he was very much in the tradition of the Old Testament, that fellow.

  213. “Mo was a violent maniac who massacred Jewish villagers.”

    You should have a look at what Moses and Joshua did.

  214. The New Testament was a step forward from the hogwash of the Old Testament

    The Koran was a huge lurch back to hatred and barbarity, which has haunted the world ever since it was made up by the maniac.

  215. What specifically is in the Qu’ran that you object to Phantom?

  216. You gotta be kidding me

  217. “You gotta be kidding me”

    Nope. Simply asking a question. What specific passages in the Qu’ran do you object to?

  218. //The New Testament was a step forward from the hogwash of the Old Testament//

    I don’t know how relevant this is but the NT was written at a time of general peace and stability in the known world.

    The Koran on the other hand was written at a time of increadible upheaval, regular ethnic displacements and massacre, looting, rape and all that went with it – everywhere from the British Isles to the Middle East.
    There was basically no strong civilised centre at the time of the Koran, in contrast to the time of the NT.

    From 100 examples, here’s one: Not too long after Mohammad, Charlemagne led his armies into the German province of Saxony to force the new religion on the locals. In a series of brief campaigns, massacres and general oppression, he managed to kill a quarter of the entire Saxon population. Saxons who didn’t convert to Christianity were beheaded. On one occasion alone, Charlemagne’s men beheaded 4,500 Saxons for refusing to convert.

    Charlemagne is one of the founders of European civilisation. He still features on coins, etc, an special EU Charlemagne award is granted for political work every year, and he is generally held up as an early hero of Europe.

    This first Holy Roman Emperor in fact makes Mohammad look like a Quaker.

  219. “€œMen are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made one superior to the other and because they spend to support them from their means. Therefore, righteous women are obedient and they guard in the husband’s absence what Allah orders them to guard. And, as to those women from whom you fear disobedience, give them a warning, send them to separate beds, and beat them.”€ 4:34

    Here is a dollop that is interesting.

    That’s your cue to say that a) it is out of context and that b) someone in the Old Testament said bad stuff too.

    This could be an all day conversation and I don’t have all day for that.

    There is much worse than that, that hundreds of millions of them believe very literally, in a way that damned few believe in the OT as literal commands or guidance.

  220. The world would be a better place had Mo never lived.

    The only good Moe was Moe Howard, who was a better philosopher too.

  221. “That’s your cue to say that a) it is out of context and that b) someone in the Old Testament said bad stuff too.”

    Strange because it is true. You can’t fault the Qu’ran without also faulting the Bible.

    “There is much worse than that, that hundreds of millions of them believe very literally, in a way that damned few believe in the OT as literal commands or guidance.”

    So if millions of people believed the less pleasant parts of the Bible would it be an evil book as well?

  222. “The world would be a better place had Mo never lived.”

    There is no evidence of that. There is no way of knowing that in the absence of Mohammad, and even in the absence of Islam, that there would be an improved world. The void could have been filled with something worse for all we know.

  223. The OT was violent hogwash

    The NT was quite a step forward. It was not the same as the OT

    The Koran was a return to violent hogwash, as produced by a violent maniac from a backwards area

  224. So would you for example describe the Torah as violent hogwash?

  225. //“That’s your cue to say that a) it is out of context and that b) someone in the Old Testament said bad stuff too.”//

    Just as this post about Trump signing Bibles was your cue to start bashing Islam and the Koran.

    Some cues are difficult to resist when the urge is so strong.

    //So if millions of people believed the less pleasant parts of the Bible would it be an evil book as well?//

    !!

  226. Some cues are difficult to resist when the urge is so strong

    Yep, superb piece of Harrification.

  227. ….and here I thought California was the land of heathens and Ireland, the land of believers. It turns out that I had it backwards.

    I attend a Bible study and we read the Old Testament and we read the New Testament. One man tries to read the Bible from start to finish every year, from the book of Genesis all the way through to Revelation. We also memorize verses from the Bible. I’m not saying that we know our Bibles by heart but there are people – here in California – reading and studying the Bible. It does happen to be probably the most amazing story ever written. Even my hair dresser is studying the Bible.

    I leave you with Proverbs 3:5-6:

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding n all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your path straight.

  228. “It does happen to be probably the most amazing story ever written.”

    Have you ever read Lord of the Rings?

  229. Or Goodfellas?:)

  230. Seamus – are you a LOTR fan? I am.

    I’m sure you know about The Inklings? That group of writers at Oxford? That included not only Tolkien but CS Lewis, as well?

    Our Bible study small group recently read CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce (reference to William Blake’s The Marriage of Heaven and Hell) basically a theologically based work of fiction – forgive me if you know if it already. If not, I highly recommend it.

  231. Patty,

    CS Lewis is top notch. He writes for Everyman. I have two Bibles. One is my good Bible, and the other is my study Bible, which, like yours, is covered in all sort of notes.

  232. //I have two Bibles. One is my good Bible, and the other is my study Bible, which, like yours, is covered in all sort of notes.//

    Oh dear.

    No wonder you guys support Trump.

  233. CS Lewis was born in Belfast, in the east of the city. A lot of people in Northern Ireland’s first fantasy novel tends to be the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

    Both Tolkien and Lewis drew heavily on their faith in their writings. Apparently Tolkien, and his friendship, was a major influence on Lewis becoming Christian (converting from Atheism) and was dismayed then upon conversion that Lewis choose to become Anglican (instead of Tolkien’s Catholicism).

    As an aside, one of my major interests is elections, and the statistical study of elections. Another of the Inklings was R. B. McCallum who coined the term for it; psephology.

  234. My questions for those above…..

    When was the last time you read your bible ?

    How many of you attend mass weekly ?

    Why?

    Does regular reading of the Bible and being a weekly comminicant make you a good Christian?

  235. Phantom,

    The OT was violent hogwash

    The NT was quite a step forward. It was not the same as the OT

    The Koran was a return to violent hogwash, as produced by a violent maniac from a backwards area

    Not quite sure what you mean here Phantom. As I pointed out you many times previously, you cannot separate the old testament from the New testament. I’m not saying that, Jesus is.

  236. It depends on how you view it. If you approach the Bible and recognise it has flaws, and understand how and why it was written then you clearly can separate out the Old Testament from the New Testament. However if you believe that the Bible is then Word of God then you most likely can’t.

  237. That doesn’t mean that the Old Testament and the new are identical.

    If they’re the same thing, there would have been no point in writing the NT down then or reading it now.

    The big fella from Bethlehem didn’t disown the Old Testament, but you didn’t see him running around saying to kill people left and right either.

    The Sermon on the Mount was something new. It had not been said before.

  238. “CS Lewis was born in Belfast, in the east of the city. ”

    I did not know that! Also, to the part where CS Lewis became an Anglican to the dismay of his Catholic friend, Tolkien, I did not know that Tolkien was Catholic. So interesting! Thanks.

    In terms of persuasive writing, I think Tolkien’s LOTR might win out. Although I do really like The Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce. Do you have an personal opinion on this?

    Here is something that might interest you – in the States, the current Evangelical movement includes many Catholics who reject Catholicism and really have a problem with the Catholic Church. They tend to talk loudly about how much they dislike the Catholic Church when there is a discussion of religion. I find this off-putting and sort of ridiculous but I wasn’t raised Catholic.

  239. As you know Seamus, I’m not religious, but I do know the Bible really well. (Sunday school, seven years in the church choir, and an atheists interestit religion.)
    Jesus is quite clear on this in the New testament. He doesn’t come to replace his father’s law, but to strengthen it. An honest interpretation of the old and New testament, would have to accept that clear instruction.

    But here’s where your point comes into play. If like many religious people, you pick and choose which part of your religious book to follow, then you can obviously ignore the bad parts, and promote the good. Many Christians do this, as do many Muslims.

  240. “As I pointed out you many times previously, you cannot separate the old testament from the New testament. I’m not saying that, Jesus is.”

    If I’m not mistaken, also, the prophet Isaiah in the Old Testament.

  241. Dave

    What was new about the New Testament?

    Was there any change in emphasis, or any change of anything?

  242. The Screwtape Letters are very enjoyable. They are funny and witty. However as pure storytelling goes it starts and ends with Tolkien. Not just Lord of the Rings but the deeper aspects of the Tolkien’s legendarium. The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales for example.

    Not least as virtually every high fantasy writer since Tolkien has pretty much just tried to copy Tolkien. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    “I find this off-putting and sort of ridiculous but I wasn’t raised Catholic.”

    I can understand the idea to a degree. The Church as an institution have done themselves a lot of harm over the last few decades, maybe even irreparable harm. The clerical abuse cases are harrowing.

    I think there is also, certainly in the last few years, a few people who don’t like how lefty Pope Frank has been, something that maybe even more pronounced in the states. And so they may be pushed to more conservative Protestant sects.

    And the old saying goes there is no zealot like a convert. So the most anti-Catholic people tend to be former Catholics (who have become more conservative Protestants or atheists).

  243. Phantom,

    That doesn’t mean that the Old Testament and the new are identical.

    They certainly aren’t, and I never claimed they were. However, they do have a lot of things in common, such as they both say homosexuality is wrong.

    The big fella from Bethlehem didn’t disown the Old Testament, but you didn’t see him running around saying to kill people left and right either.

    Jesus certainly was a lot more easy-going than his dad. After all, he didn’t say it was ok to keep and beat slaves. And conquer cities and kill all the residents, except the women who haven’t been with a man, who you could keep as your sex slaves.
    But no where in the New testament does it say that these rules replace those of the old testament. in fact Jesus says that all the rules of the old testament still apply. and I’m afraid to those trying to promote Christianity as superior to Islam, that’s the kicker.

    Before you raise this point, I do agree that Christians as a general rule are a lot less violent than Muslims. But that has more to do with the countries and environment that the majority of Christians are born and raised in, then what preached in the actual holy books.

  244. //Jesus is quite clear on this in the New testament. He doesn’t come to replace his father’s law, but to strengthen it.//

    Jesus was a public speaker and like all public speakers was given to flights of rhetoric. Sometimes things that sound good or are said forcefully convince people more than intelligent things said in a reasonable but boring way.

    He can say what he wants, but the fact is that his message was very different to that of the OT prophets, most of whom were more focussed on absolute obedience to God and slavish compliance with the laws and commandments than about doing good to fellow human beings no matter who they are – whether powerful or meek, Jew or gentile.

  245. “If like many religious people, you pick and choose which part of your religious book to follow, then you can obviously ignore the bad parts, and promote the good.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by this. I’m not a Biblical scholar by any stretch but I do know that the Old Testament is comprised of not only the first five books of Moses but also Historical Books, Books of Poetry (Job, Psalm, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs) and also major and minor Prophets.

    How do you pick and choose historical parts? or the rules for making a temple? or the words of a prophet?

    I think it’s a misunderstanding to think the Bible is some sort of behavioral rule book.

  246. Jesus maybe had to exercise some diplomacy about the old set of rules, or they’d have crucified him a lot sooner than they did.

  247. ” If like many religious people, you pick and choose which part of your religious book to follow, then you can obviously ignore the bad parts, and promote the good.”

    I’m not a Bible thumper – it’s in the Book so it must be true and to Hell with everything else. So the minutiae is, for me anyway, less important than the overall message. Love God. Love humanity. Try to do the right thing (and the right thing will be different from person to person).

    I tend to only quote the Bible to rebut the people who use it selectively. So I’m less interested in what the Bible actually says in terms of the detail. The general message and ethics of it is what is important.

  248. Phantom,

    What was new about the New Testament?

    Was there any change in emphasis, or any change of anything?

    in my opinion the New testament doesn’t really change anything from the old testament, It probably just adds a pair of rose tinted glasses to the old testament.
    The old testament is more about the history of a people, (the Jews), while the New testament is more about one person. (Jesus.) The old testament focuses more on the wrath of God, while the New testament focuses more on the grace of God.
    The New testament also Preaches forgiveness and charity, while the Old testament is more about conquering the non-believers.
    That’s my take on anyway for what It’s worth.

  249. Patty

    uuu“If like many religious people, you pick and choose which part of your religious book to follow, then you can obviously ignore the bad parts, and promote the good.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by this. I’m not a Biblical scholar by any stretch but I do know that the Old Testament is comprised of not only the first five books of Moses but also Historical Books, Books of Poetry (Job, Psalm, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs) and also major and minor Prophets.

    The point I’m trying to make, is that both Christians and Muslims can ignore the fire and brimstone part of their holy books and promote the charity and forgiveness parts.
    This is not a criticism of them on my part, I think this is a good idea.

    I think it’s a misunderstanding to think the Bible is some sort of behavioral rule book.

    I agree. But many people do see the Bible as a guide for what’s right and wrong. And depending on which part of the Bible you choose to follow, this can sometimes be problematic.

  250. //Jesus maybe had to exercise some diplomacy about the old set of rules, or they’d have crucified him a lot sooner//

    Yes, I’m sure that was a factor in his teachings too.

    //The old testament is more about the history of a people, (the Jews), while the New testament is more about one person. (Jesus.) The old testament focuses more on the wrath of God, while the New testament focuses more on the grace of God.//

    But that leaves out vast parts of the OT, including probably the most important parts.

    I’d say, generally, the OT is about discovering the nature of God, what is he like and what does he want from us. It’s very much God-fixated, whereas it would be possible to rewrite the NT and leave God out of it altogether and you’d still have a very similar message.
    Basically, the bahaviour of an atheist could satisfy the message of Jesus, but never the message of any of the OT heavies.

    In the NT there’s also significant differences between the Gospels and, say, the Epistles. From the bit I remember from church, the latter are much closer to the OT than the Gospels are.

  251. “He doesn’t come to replace his father’s law, but to strengthen it.”

    I’m not sure I know what law you are referring to here.

    My understanding is that Jesus came to save us from our sins and through his suffering on the cross and resurrection, he offers us salvation.

    A Christian is one who recognizes/believes in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

    While the first five books of the Bible do set out a number of rigid laws to follow regarding building temples etc. ,the New Testament does not. The New Testament is made up of Gospels of Christ’s early disciples, as well as letters from same and the book of Revelation.

  252. Noel,

    But that leaves out vast parts of the OT, including probably the most important parts.

    I wasn’t claiming that was a comprehensive list mate. And yes, I agree with the rest of your post.

  253. “From the bit I remember from church, the latter are much closer to the OT than the Gospels are.”

    The epistles are letters to the early church addressing issues like dealing with oppression of Christians, and advising Christians to follow the straight and narrow path of righteous behavior and not indulge in drunken orgies. 1 Peter also deals with how to live with a non-Christian (remember this is the early days of the church).

    Both the Gospels and the Letters are specific to Jesus Christ.

  254. Christians do not “buy” salvation with behavior.

    Jesus Christ saved us from our sins.

    The thief on the cross next to Jesus Christ proclaimed his belief and he was saved.

  255. Patty,

    “He doesn’t come to replace his father’s law, but to strengthen it.”

    I’m not sure I know what law you are referring to here.

    I was making a point to Phantom, that the Old testament does not in any way replace the New testament. In fact, Jesus points out in the New testament that all the laws and teachings in the Old testament are still relevant, and still have to be followed.

    https://www.bethinking.org/bible/q-how-did-jesus-view-the-old-testament

  256. Probably the biggest distinction between Catholicism and most Protestant churches is that the Catholic Church teaches that man is not saved by faith alone. But by faith and good works.

  257. Its muslims that get bent out of shape over paper. They think a bit of paper with religious writing on it becomes holy. Christians do not share that delusion. Its perfectly ok for Trump to sign a Bible. Families write in their bible births deaths etc. This is a confected argument.

  258. Interesting debate here about the veracity of an entirely fictional man made entity.

  259. Tolkien was great LOTR is a masterpiece, I prefer The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant myself as better, but it’s a minority view,

    The most profound writer of our time is Asimov.

  260. faith and good works

    Amen

  261. Phantom here ya go you’ll enjoy this

    https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/433603-robocop-the-ai-race-and-ethics-of-creating-killer-robots

  262. Patrick

    I for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

  263. Patrick

    The most profound writer of our time is Asimov.

    I’m a big Asimov fan, but I would argue that other science fiction writers, such as Philip k Dick and Iain M Banks, were better.

  264. “Probably the biggest distinction between Catholicism and most Protestant churches is that the Catholic Church teaches that man is not saved by faith alone. But by faith and good works.”

    Seamus – serious now – thank you for your insights.

    “As an aside, one of my major interests is elections, and the statistical study of elections”

    maybe – if we are not at loggerheads over trite stuff (it happens) I look forward to hearing something from you next election re: predictions? or lack thereof?

  265. I’ve enjoyed this conversation as well.

    And I imagine I will have opinions and observations come the next election (that such is the way of American elections seems to already beginning some 18 months before polling day).

  266. It looks like they might get Trump on tax-dodging, just like they got Al Capone:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uCUpx5FCQk

  267. Off-topic, this Boeing disaster is another disaster for President Boeing Trump.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkaldPql_vg

  268. first off you can’t get a President for tax evasion while he’s in office you can ONLY impeach a sitting President…..

    and what he runs boeing now? c’mon Peter a little reality.

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