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One, Two, Unbuckle My Shoe

By ATWadmin On January 4th, 2009

Wow!  Was there anywhere in the world yesterday where a combination of militant Lefties and sick Muslims didn’t congregate to pity the plight of their poor, wee comrades in Gaza?  They were there in their thousands – from London to Caracas; San Francisco to Athens.  Today’s Sunday Express has photographs from the London march of delusion.  Given the profusion of veiled heads and silly beards in the crowd, the gathering seemed to be dominated by Muslims – as anxious as ever to keep their potty religion and unending grievances in the media spotlight.  Naturally, taking account of the tendency of UK Muslims to slavishly ape any act of cultural, religious, social or sartorial lunacy exhibited in other parts of the world, it wasn’t long before pairs of shoes came raining down across Whitehall as hundreds copied the antics of the disrespectful scumbag who threw his footwear at George Bush during his recent trip to Iraq.  I sincerely hope those who discarded their Christmas presents from Dolcis at the gates of Downing Street had to walk home in bare feet.  I even hope they had the pleasure of personally experiencing the painful reality in the lyrics of one Annie Lennox – Walking on Broken Glass.

Isn’t it funny how the actions of Israel always manage to bring out the very worst specimens of Left-leaning humanity?  I find it supremely ironic that a country born out of the actions of the extreme-Right is now the primary target of invective for the extreme-Left.  It matters not that innocent Israelis have endured over 8,000 rocket attacks since 2003.  It matters not that the relatively small number of Jews killed in that period is all by luck and not by strategic management.  It matters not that virtually nobody present at the marches yesterday would stand for their own country coming under rocket attack from terrorists in another jurisdiction.  All that matters is that, as long as it’s only Jews who have to put up with being at the vanguard of the worldwide Islamist project – namely territorial and ‘infidelistic’ displacement and the establishment of Muslim domination – it doesn’t matter.

Sorry, of course it matters!!  For what many of these crazy Lefties don’t realise is that there is an organic link between what is perpetrated, propagandistically and militaristically, against the Jewish State and what is envisaged by many in the Islamic religion as being the ultimate destination of their creed on a global scale.  The reason Muslims hate Israel, inter alia, is that it shows the most practical resistance to that agenda.  Does anyone seriously imagine that if Muslims instead of Jews had been given a homeland on the Levant (geographically similar to their ancient Biblical lands) after being at the coalface of a Nazi holocaust there would have been all this hatred from the Arab world?  No way!  Muslims don’t hate Jews because of their ‘plantation’ in the Middle East.  They hate them because they ARE Jews – full stop!  The sick mindset that wants the Middle East to be entirely Muslim-dominated is not a world away from the sick mindset wanting the same for the rest of civilisation.

As for the crazies who argue the legitimacy of Hamas based on the principle of democratic suffrage, I say ‘bullshit!’.  Democracy is not just about going out and voting for a particular party or group.  It involves respect for other models and institutions of democracy – within and without its own territory.  Hamas does not, and will not, recognise the State of Israel notwithstanding the latter’s international, legal and historical legitimacy.  That makes Hamas, and the plebs who vote for it, undemocratic, irrespective of the weight of electoral endorsement.

Like David I support the actions of Israel 100%.  Israel neither asked for nor wanted this war.  It has suffered terribly over the past seven years.  I’d like to know when the likes of Annie Lennox, Tony (God isn’t he dead yet?) Benn and Jeremy Corbyn will be protesting about that!

118 Responses to “One, Two, Unbuckle My Shoe”

  1. Andrew, if St.Tony of Benn was dead then the BBC would have been wallowing in grief and self flagellation for months.

    Trust me, when he does take the final escalator down to the hot place we will never hear the last of it. Sorry off topic but I couldn’t let that comment go unremarked.

    As for the rest, I salute your post from start to finish.

  2. where did you find a picture of a muslim brain?

  3. ‘Israel neither asked for nor wanted this war.’

    Your paucity of historical knowledge is breathtaking Andy, simply breathtaking.

  4. ‘Your paucity of historical knowledge is breathtaking Andy’

    Your paucity of any kind of knowledge is impressive, RS. Now, care to say something substantial?

  5. Grizzly

    Hadn’t looked at it that way (LOL). The ‘flies on a turd’ photo is a metaphor to illustrate how the flies of Leftism can flock to any kind of shitty cause.

  6. Here’s a site which allows us to send food directly to active units of the IDF. I’ve already fed 30 soldiers so I hope they do well and bring peace to Gaza.

    http://pizzaidf.org/

  7. >>Muslims don’t hate Jews because of their ‘plantation’ in the Middle East. They hate them because they ARE Jews <<

    I’d say the many Muslims in the ME who hate Jews do so because they stupidly believe all Jews are behind the colonisation of Palestine by Europeans based on a crazy religious-ethnic fantasy. In fact, the Jews who did were more often than not secular and Jewish only in name. A large majority of Jews all over the world – orthodox and assimilated – had no part in the robbery of Palestinian land and probably didn’t care about Palestine/Israel either way.

    I had to laugh when I saw the demonstrators pegging their shoes at Downing Street. An excellent gesture, and I hope it catches on.

    Nice comment on Annie Lennox, Andrew!

  8. ‘robbery of Palestinian land’?

    The third return from exile is a far more accurate description.

    Israel was not a process of colonisation. It was a contemporary sovereign incarnation on historically Jewish land.

  9. Allan,

    Yip, that’s a great slice, I too have given and trust others will. God bless the IDF.

    http://pizzaidf.org/

  10. ‘where did you find a picture of a muslim brain?’

    I wonder if Mr Vance will have anything to say on such bigotry?

  11. Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert.

  12. Still waiting on your position paper homework assignment RS

  13. I was at the demo in Dublin and there was some shoe throwing outside the Dail!

    I wish Hamas well in their fight against the IDF.

  14. When the British Mandate was divided up, the Jews got Israel and the Palestinians got Jordan.

    There is no occupation.

  15. gee Petr such sympathies I would have never guessed you held, Another pro terrorist chimes in

  16. "There is no occupation"

    To be taken as seriously as "McCain will win" about a week before the election. :))

  17. Troll – The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against this agression.

  18. As for the crazies who argue the legitimacy of Hamas based on the principle of democratic suffrage …

    Which they do, in ATW and elsewhere, which somewhat undermines their apparent concern for civilian casualties now – a concern not shared by Hamas.

    Undoubtedly innocents have been killed in Gaza, mainly children and women treated as chattels and those opposed to the aims of Hamas. All the rest, all those who voted for Hamas and are sympathetic to their aims cannot be regarded as innocents.

    The unthinking Left should wonder what these people thought they were voting for when they voted for Hamas. It wasn’t for a better bus service. They voted for hostility towards Israel. They got hostility towards Israel. Now, they are reaping the harvest of their deliberate, conscious actions.

    When the Left invoked the ‘democratically elected’ Hamas, they invoked the popular will of the Gazan people.

    To set that popular will aside now and talk only of ‘civilians’ as if they had nothing to do with Hamas, nothing to do with Hamas coming to power and nothing to do with legitimising Hamas violence is bullshit.

  19. Troll – We demonstrated outside the US embassy. I spat on it as I left.

  20. but the jews have no right to defend against palli aggresion.

    If spitting on our embassy makes you feel that good next time you see an American Marine spit on him I’m sure he’ll make you feel even better…lol

  21. ‘I spat on it as I left.’

    Doubtless thousands of Dubliners will be grateful they had their BCG injections at school.

  22. ‘Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert.’

    And the ‘Joan Peters Award’ for bullshit goes to…

  23. RS: So, tell me then, what was there on this arid stretch of desert?

  24. >>to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part,<<

    Bullshit, Patty. The vast majority of arable land now was also arable land then. It was also home to an Arab population.
    Christ, the excuses are really getting thin at this stage.

    >>It was a contemporary sovereign incarnation on historically Jewish land.<<

    Now that’s a fine phrase for land-grabbing!!

    The Jews who settled in the Holy Land (may I use that term?) were generally secular Europeans. They had about as little in common with the small orthodox Jewish community in Jerusalem as you have, Andrew. It is absurd to claim they – who had been assimilated and genetically mixed with Europeans over millennia – had some kind of title to land based on a religious book or because they claimed people of the same religion had lived there around the time of the Romans!

    What fun European politics would be if we all started resurrecting such ancient claims based on phoney tales of "blood" links! – the Poles could kick the Germans out of Berlin, the Germans kick the Belgians out of Belgium and the French out of northern France, while the good people of Burgundy engage in a bit of “sovereign incarnation” in the Rhineland. The Moroccans could invade the south of Spain, and the Swedes the north, which I suppose they would have to as the people of northern France, having been supplanted by Germans from around Aachen, would have dusted off a claim to their ancestral homelands in Scandinavia for another spot of sovereign incarnation.

    A word in your ear, Andrew: you Yorkshire folk have a strong claim to some prime coastal stretches of Lower Saxony. Why, there are even almost no Muslims there!

  25. Noel Cunningham –

    So the bogtrotters will finally stop boring everyone about NI now?

    Good.

  26. Patty, if i was to give you admissions by leading zionists and indeed founding figures of the state of israel at the time, that indeed the land was occupied. Will you recant and admit you are wrong?

  27. Noel: "The vast majority of arable land now was also arable land then. It was also home to an Arab population.
    Christ, the excuses are really getting thin at this stage"

    Of course the lands were arable, then as now. But the little sliver of desert called Israel wasn’t "home" to anyone but some wandering tribes.

    Wandering Jews, wandering Arabs….over the little patch of land assigned to Israel had seen many passing tribes….

    But the bullshit here is the argument that somehow Palestinian land is occupied or colonized by Israel.

  28. RS:

    Why don’t you just tell me who you think occupied the land before the State of Israel was established.

  29. How about it Patty, will you admit you were wrong?

  30. ‘Now that’s a fine phrase for land-grabbing!!’

    No, it’s an accurate term for what happened.

    ‘The Jews who settled in the Holy Land (may I use that term?) were generally secular Europeans. They had about as little in common with the small orthodox Jewish community in Jerusalem as you have, Andrew.’

    And how many of us have anything in common with our cultural, religious or genetic ancient antecedents? Your contention means absolutely nothing. The Levant was the destination for exiled European Jews because it was, historically, the land of the Jewish people. No other religious group has been persecuted like the Jews have been. A settled, sovereign state was supposed to put an end to all that. Then Arabs got annoyed…..

    If you want to talk about ‘land grabs’, we can always discuss black Zimbabweans.

    Why, there are even almost no Muslims there!’

    Sounds heavenly!!!

  31. Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert.

    LOL! ‘A land without people for a people without a land’

    That Zionist myth was debunked many many years ago.

  32. Andrew your argument is still the same inflatable dartboard into which Noel previously threw a real dart 🙂

  33. Awwww the shoe throwing was so hilarious. That has to be the most pointless little gesture since bra burning and will probably be at the same piss take level in years to come too. Stilettos at the ready! Really small gatherings and all deeply religious blood lust morons too. The tv crews had to sort out special camera angles to make the crowds look mean.

    Hamas are being well and truly hammered. Gotta love Livni! The woman has cojones. And elsewhere the Brits are putting the boot in to terrorist scum too for REAL. No shoe throwing by any gormless eunuchs there!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7810323.stm

    Go Israel. Awesome results this weekend. Great post Andrew!

  34. Alison – You are a moral disgrace.

  35. Well Patty, i have the quotes here infront of me. Will you recant?

  36. Is everyone who supports Israel or who opposes terrorism a " moral disgrace "?

    Where do I get my " Moral Disgrace " t shirt?

    I imagine this shirt will have to suffice

  37. I’ll order one as well, and a wet one for the lady. 🙂

  38. Damn, If I knew there was going to be shoe throwing I would have gone along to the demo with the biggest suitcase I could carry and volunteer to ‘clean up’. Then it would have been off to the nearest car boot sale. If I ended up with 200 single shoes I suppose I could have sold them to Heather McCartney (oops I mean Mills ).

  39. being called a moral disgrace by people that support Terrorists is an oxymoron

  40. I’m a moral disgrace too.

  41. Im Spartacus

    sure he was probably a terrorist too , right Troll?

  42. being called a moral disgrace by people that support Terrorists is an oxymoron

    Troll – Consult your dictionary before using big words.

  43. People who cheer death are a moral disgrace.

  44. Ooops, sorry, moral disgrace over here too.

  45. RS and Petr: So, debunk it if you can.

  46. Will shoe throwing be in the London 2012 olympics? Sorry, couldn’t resist, I’ll get my coat.

  47. RS: "Well Patty, i have the quotes here infront of me. Will you recant?"

    you’re starting to bore me. either put up or shut up.

  48. Patty – You can’t expect him to provide the evidence if you won’t even admit you’re wrong!

  49. Petr

    If an armed maniac was attacking your friends and family and a police sharpshooter deposited a bullet into his heart, are you telling me that you wouldn’t "cheer" just a bit?

    Be honest. You would, wouldn’t you?

    Thought so.

    That’s kind of the equivalent of what I think you see here.

    A longstanding problem is being dealt with. That’s it. You should be cheering also, else I may call you a moral disgrace.

  50. Petr: "You can’t expect him to provide the evidence if you won’t even admit you’re wrong!"

    If you have nothing intelligent to say, then don’t say anything at all.

  51. LOL at Samuel 09:02…but will the Beach Volleyball need to be cancelled? I’m sure that all that bare skin isn’t Muslim-friendly.

    Beach V’ball in a burqua anyone?

  52. Patty, apart from the fact that every Israeli historian would also call your "desert" claim bullshit, do you not see a SLIGHT contradiction between:

    >>the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert.<<
    – Patty, 08:10PM

    >>Of course the lands were arable, then as now.<<
    – Patty, 08:38PM

    Also,

    >>When the British Mandate was divided up, the Jews got Israel and the Palestinians got Jordan.
    There is no occupation.<<

    Errr… the occupation is that Israel now controls the land allotted to the Palestinians.

  53. Phantom – The bombing of women and children is never something to be cheered. Never.

  54. Noel, maybe Patty meant potentially arable…as most arid land tends to be. That would strike me as an accurate description of the history in terms of agricultural use.

  55. Petr

    I quite agree

    Please tell Hamas this.

    I’ll cheer the bombs that take out the Hamas Honchos and street criminals. I will feel sorrow for the deaths of the innocents in a way that Hamas does not , as it hides behind the skirts of the women and secretes bombs in the playrooms of the children.

    Not attacking Hamas in a muscular way guarantees many more deaths of "women and children" in the months and years ahead.

  56. Phantom – I don’t think Hamas should fire rockets at civilian areas in Israel, ok? But Israel’s response is that of a psychopath.

  57. So is bombing morally different to rockets and sucide bombs on buses Petr? Where is your moral line drawn?

  58. Petr, you called Troll for use of ‘oxymoron’ earlier.

    ‘Psychopath’ has a specific medical definition. I call you on it’s exact use in return.

  59. >>Noel, maybe Patty meant potentially arable…as most arid land tends to be.<<

    Geoff, indeed. Even the Sahara is "potentially arable". Your interpretation would make her statement absurd instead of just wrong.

  60. Goeff – Doesn’t make much difference to the victims.

  61. But you cheer Hamas Petr. They put women and kids in harm’s way intentionally. So you cheering them further up the thread makes you a moral disgrace and a bit of a chump. As does spitting by the way. Tad silly too.

  62. Geoff (you’re posting too quickly!!)

    "’Psychopath’ has a specific medical definition."

    It also has a common definition, and PT is quite right in his use of the term in this sense.

  63. The spitting was symbolic, not silly at all.

    And I don’t cheer the killing of civilians, ever.

  64. But Petr spitting is stupid and crass and not something to boast about.

  65. Noel, ‘absurd’ would still be too strong…plenty of golf courses in the centres of ex-deserts in the Middle East these days. But this is pure pedantry; as was Petr calling Troll and then swatting away my counter-example.

    So, to paraphrase that old LibDem phrase – what do we propose? "Go Back To Your AirRaid Shelters And Prepare For Rockets!"

  66. Colm, what’s a nice fellow like you doing in a place like this?

  67. But, er, you just did. You wished Hamas well in the same way Alison wished Israel well. Oh and spitting as symbolism is comical.

  68. Petr is absolutely wrong to use the word psychopathic, in this case, either in its common or medical definition. Consider- Israel tolerated without major military response thousands of attacks by rocket on its citizens. Israel is taking maximum measures to minimise civilian casualties, despite Hamas’ deliberate use of civilians for military purposes. Israel even warns people where it is going to strike, provides aid, allows medical treatment.

    Israel is an old softy provoked beyond belief by the Islamists’ schoolyard bully, Hamas, which is egged on by Hezbullah, backed up by Iran. Unfeeling Israel aint, for sure.

  69. Noel

    Sometimes the cream has to mix with the curd.

  70. >>But this is pure pedantry; as was Petr calling Troll and then swatting away my counter-example.<<

    Actually Troll’s use of oxymoron (funny he didn’t write: "oxymoroon"!) showed he doesn’t understand what the word means.
    Petr’s use of "psychopath" shows that he does.

  71. Patty is that a yes or no?

    Will you admit you were wrong?

  72. To risk being a ‘moral disgrace’ myself, I’d go back to Petr’s use of the word psychopath. Taking one descriptor from the wiki-site:

    "Lack of a conscience in conjunction with a weak ability to defer gratification and/or control aggressive desires, often leads to antisocial behaviors."

    Given that Israel allows voices from all sides, including those against any such military action. Given that it has continually tolerated breaches of treaties made, and since it exercises enormous control over its ‘agressive desires’ such as they are, and because it shows a lot of concern for the social consequences, I’d argue that whether Petr Tarasov understands the meaning of the word ‘psychopath’ is just not important. He’s wrong (and he has at least one filthy habit).

  73. Ed, I understand what you mean, but I don’t agree.

    Everybody knows that in a few weeks or months things will die down again. Israel cannot control Gaza and will withdraw, possible retaining a buffer zone. Sooner or later, especially with the new US govt., negotiations will be resumed and, hopefully, will lead to a final and fair peace deal.

    Now, contrary to what one would assume if you were on a staple diet of ATW, no Israelis were killed by the rockets that were claimed as justification for this onslaught. Israelis have, however, naturally enough been killed since open hostilities started, as everyone knew they would, and more Israeli deaths will no doubt follow a land invasion.

    While rockets flying across your border are of course intolerable, the oft-quoted excuse that Israel cares too much about every Israeli killed just won’t wash as, as we have seen, more of them are killed by their own response than by the cause.
    (this was even more true of the 2006 Lebanon invasion)

    Their reaction is motivated by a deep-seated desire to hit back, no doubt nurtured by memories of the holocaust, even though they know it will lead to little or nothing positive, but instead to more Israeli deaths than if they did nothing (forgetting Palestinian deaths for the moment).
    They are in short "unable to control their (however understandable) aggressive desires" and put off that need for gratification, and in this sense Petr’s use of "pathological" accd. to your definition is quite right.

  74. RS –

    Stop boring everyone. Now I’ve kicked your arse all over the place on this before, well laid on.

    It was dull work dealing with know-nothing like you and not something I’d relish doing again. But if you don’t stop pestering Patty and start saying something interesting – for a long overdue change – I’ll have to start kicking your arse again.

  75. Pete,

    I think he should stick to reading the work of his preferred "notorious anti-Semites" like Polly Toynbees Gramps, ol’ Arnie.

  76. Pete exactly what did you kick my arse on?

    Patty said

    "Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert."

    Perhaps you agree?

  77. Noel- I think in this case your facts are wrong. Israelis have been killed by the rockets Hamas has launched from Gaza over the last months and years. Plus, of course, tens of thousands of Israelis have lived in fear of being hit- on a daily basis.

  78. Ed, I don’t think so. At least I read in a few places that nobody was killed by the rockets launched since the ceasefire came to an end.

    You are right about the fear, of course.

  79. RS –

    Compared to the great nation that Israelis have built, it was as Patty describes.

    No, I’m not interested in what you think about it.

  80. Noel

    Ed was not referring to deaths since the end of the (phony) ceasefire.

    He spoke of the deaths since the rockets started being fired. And deaths have taken place

    This is not an academic concern. No nation should be expected to allow this kind of thing to continue.

  81. So I can quote you on that Pete, you agree with Patty that…

    "Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert."

    A simple yes or no will suffice. but I think somehow you’re incapable of that. Prove me wrong.

  82. Actually, most of the land of Israel is probably unoccupied even now. The Negev is a (relatively) large place.

    Defining terms on these things can be maddening.

    Most of the land of the United States is probably unoccupied when you think about it – very tiny populations considering the size of the land in Alaska, North Dakota, Montana, and a number of other states, etc.

  83. >>Ed was not referring to deaths since the end of the (phony) ceasefire.<<

    Phantom, he spoke of people killed in the past few months, and none were.
    Besides he was talking in the context of my previous comment, which was that more Israelis are killed in the response than in what they are responding to. The response to the rockets fired over the past few weeks/months. The events you mention were obviously superceded by the ceasefire Israel negotiated with Hamas a year later.

    RS, forget it. Patty’s silence shows you are right.

    >>Most of the land of the United States is probably unoccupied when you think about it – very tiny populations considering the size of the land<<

    Then surely Patty by her own logic can’t object to Mexicans settling in it!

  84. Noel

    Didn’t say that we didn’t own it.

    The basement of my house is unoccupied but that doesn’t mean you can move in ( unless you agree to pay a big rent, in which case you can move in tomorrow )

  85. Noel, maybe, but we see here that 24 rockets and a mortar were fired at shoppers two days BEFORE the ceasefire was due to end, injuring 3.

    Overall the article offers evidence both for your arguments and mine, but you’ll concede that attempted mass murder during a ceasefire is just a tad stronger than the "fear" which you concede.

    It was second on my googling and I’m only going to head back to the search if this particular part of the thread continues.

    I hope you won’t take offence, though, if I don’t offer you MY basement.

  86. Sorry, link didn’t work, so I’ll just paste it:

    http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=1087423

  87. >>but you’ll concede that attempted mass murder during a ceasefire is just a tad stronger than the "fear" which you concede.<<

    Indeed, but still not as strong as killings (of about 7 Hamas members), which is what Israel did and which effectively ended the ceasefire.
    You should also note that it wasn’t Hamas that fired these rockets.

    But now the night-shift starts and I have to leave you all.

    Cheers.

  88. Noel: " Patty’s silence shows you are right"

    Hardly. My silence shows that I have other priorities in my life.

    The point I am making – which both you and RS have not satisfactorily addressed — is that when the British Mandate was broken up into parts, the part that became Israel was mostly unoccupied desert. The Israelis have turned this scrap of unfarmed, unoccupied land into an oasis.

    If you don’t agree prove me wrong with facts.

    Saying that the land before the State of Israel was always potentially arable is obvious. And irrelevant.

    Saying that Palestinians lived on the land is also irrelevant. Yes, there were Palestianians, and yes, there were also Zionist settlers before Israel became a State.

    My point is that the little scrap of land now called Israel was sparsely populated and certainly not a Palestinian state.

  89. NOel: "Then surely Patty by her own logic can’t object to Mexicans settling in it!"

    No. By my own logic, the US is a bonafide country and I would most certainly object to invasion by Mexico.

    Israel was a part of the British Mandate before it became Israel. Not a Palestinian state.

  90. "At least I read in a few places that nobody was killed by the rockets launched since the ceasefire came to an end." So that makes it ok! Typical republican scum.

  91. Noel: My point regarding the use of the word "arid" is that Israel doesn’t have much water. This seems so obvious to me that I am surprised that this is even a discussion.

    Per Wiki: "Water is a resource which is in increasing demand in the country with rain falling only between November and April, with an uneven distribution across the country, from 28 inches (70 cm) in the north to less than 2 inches (5 cm) in the south.[2] Annual renewable water resources are about 5.6 billion cubic feet (1.6 billion cu. m.), of which 75% of which is used for agriculture.[2] Most of Israel’s freshwater sources have been consequently joined to the National Water Carrier, network of pumping stations, reservoirs, canals and pipelines which transfers water from the north south.[2] The area of irrigated farmland in the country has increased from 74,000 acres (30,000 ha) in 1948 to some 460,000 acres (186,400 ha) today."

    Before the State of Israel, much of the land lacked water. End of story.

  92. RS: You seem to want to take issue with my point that, pre-Israel, there was no Palestinian state, per se. You take issue by arguing that the land was indeed populated, pre-Israel, although you never actually go into any detail as to who was populating the land. It’s hard to discuss something with you when you speak without specifics but here’s something for you to think about:

    "Another contemporary myth is that of a "Palestinian people" which, as commonly portrayed, has something to do with the Arabs but is somehow distinct. Yet, in 1900 the Arabs in the country did not see the Land as a separate or distinct land, nor did they have a consciousness of {being} a "Palestinian people." The Muslim Arabs were loyal to the Ottoman Empire. Indeed, the scholars Zeine Zeine, an Arab, and Ziya Gokalp, a Turk, invalidate the notion of a separate Arab nationalism (let alone "Palestinian" nationalism) before the First World War. Zeine and Gokalp agree that the Ottoman Empire was a joint enterprise of Turks and Arabs. Zeine wrote, "The Arabs as Muslims were proud of Turkish power and prestige. The Ottoman Empire was their Empire as much as it was the Turks’… the Arabs did not consider the Turkish rule as ‘foreign’ rule…" (9)"

    So, RS, unless you can point to me some Palestine state that existed before Israel, I think you are arguing in the air.

  93. Ok Patty lets see, you wrote…

    "Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert."

    I think we can all agree these are Patty’s words. Now if one forgets for a second, the Joan Peters type mentality someone would need to have to believe this nonsense. Lets instead turn to a zionist, who visted Palestine weel before the creation of the state of Israel. In 1891, to be precise. Upon visting Palestine, he penned ‘Truth From Eretz Yisrael’. If I may quote from it…

    "We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ….. But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains …. are not cultivated."

    Ha’am was also critical of the manner in which zionist immigrants to Palestine had been treating the indigenous Palestinians. Im sure you have heard the quote

    "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."

    Which was contained in a report sent back from Palestine by a delegation sent there after the first zionist congress in Basel in 1897. This idea that Palestine was not inhabited, or was sparsely populated by a few nomadic tribes has been well and truly debunked.

    Yitzk Epstein in ‘A Hidden Question'(1905) was a bit sarcastic toward the Zionist leadership, criticising them for ‘overlooking the rather "marginal" fact that in our beloved land there lives an entire people that has been dwelling there for many centuries and has never considered leaving it.’

    Hillel Zeitlin in ‘The Crisis'(1905) accused fellow zionists of forgetting ‘mistakenly or maliciously that Palestine belongs to others and it is totally settled.’

    One interesting point this blatant lies and propaganda of ‘ land without a people for a people without a land’ throws up is the zionist enterprise knew well that to take another persons land is morally indefensible. This explains the fact,that they recognised Palestine was inhabited so felt they needed to resort to peddling such lies, claiming Palestine was virtually empty, which means they themselves must have known of the inherent immorality of the zionist project in Palestine. Yet on here we still have people willing to defend it.

  94. ‘Lets instead turn to a zionist, *Ahad Ha’am* who visted Palestine weel before the creation of the state of Israel. In 1891, to be precise. Upon visting Palestine, he penned ‘Truth From Eretz Yisrael’. If I may quote from it…’

  95. RS: I don’t want to play word games with you (you said blah, blah, blah). I clarify here. Take it or leave it. This is, and always was my point:

    in 1900 the Arabs in the country did not see the Land as a separate or distinct land, nor did they have a consciousness of {being} a "Palestinian people."

    Are you interested in debating me? Because this is my point. Disprove it if you can but don’t start going at me jumping to all sorts of assumptions, etc.

  96. RS: "they themselves must have known of the inherent immorality of the zionist project in Palestine"

    Where is this Palestine that you refer to?

  97. Ehh, in the middle east Patty.

  98. RS: where in the ME?

  99. You seriously don’t know where Palestine is?

  100. RS: You refer to "Palestine" I’d like you to tell me where "Palestine" is — because I don’t think you know.

  101. Hang on Patty you said the land was mostly unoccupied. Do you now take this back, and admit you were wrong?

    Futhermore you seem to think because a people were previously ruled by another and never had the chance to govern themselves that it is ok to import loads of immigrants into their land and ethnically cleanse the indigenous people off it? I suppose you think Britain was wrong to leave southern Ireland (seeing as there was never a central irish state before britain invaded) and perhaps you also think all former colonies should still be colonies?

    Is that your argument?

    Please answer both the first and second questions.

  102. Patty are you aware that Palestine was a class "A" mandate?

    For instance do you know that South-West Africa was designated a class "C" mandate?

  103. RS — you are busted. You refer to Palestine, and yet you have no idea where the Palestine that you refer to is….!!!

    So, don’t go asking me to explain myself and telling me which questions I should answer for you.

    Tell me where "Palestine" is – the "Palestine" that you refer to – and then we’ll talk, my friend.

  104. RS: I am now well aware of the fact that you are a 1st class ignormus. Do me a favor and read up on "Palestine."

  105. Whats the matter Patty? Now that your little propaganda lie has been shown to be such you refuse to admit you were wrong and so grab the nearest tangent?

  106. RS: I’ve got to run. Wiki has an OK summary of "Palestine."

    Read. and Study. and then get back to me.

  107. "Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the tiny sliver of land was, for the most part, an arid stretch of primarily unoccupied desert."

    Do you accept the above ridiculous statement was false. You may have believed mistakenly, not your fault perhaps.

  108. RS: "Now that your little propaganda lie "

    My propaganda lie? About "Palestine?"

    Look, I don’t want to be mean to you but when you can’t tell me where "Palestine" is – the Palestine that you refer to – it just tells me that you don’t know much.

    So, stop pretending, and attacking, and do some study.

    I’ve got to go.

  109. RS: My point always was, and still is, that Israel made something of itself. The sliver of land now known as Israel wasn’t much before the 1949 State of Israel. (not talking about ancient history here)

    And on merit alone – forget who lived there first – on merit alone, Israel deserves to exist.

    And the Arab world is wrong to continue their quest to drive the Israel people into the sea.

  110. Patty won’t answer straight questions. She lacks the integrity to admit she’s wrong.

  111. ‘on merit alone’

    Ethnically cleansing a people of their land gives you merit?

    ‘forget who lived there first’

    Why? Should all mis-treated and oppressed peoples be forgotten. That is a very very strange comment.

    You neglect to admit you were wrong. You neglect to admit the land was inhabited and that it was indeed being cultivated. Your wish to portray Palestine as being a land of a few sparse nomads has been busted and you now strike out, seeking to hide your blushes. Understandable, if still a shame.

  112. Here’s Petr!

    What’s wrong? I thought your beef with me was that I voted for McCain? Now, I don’t answer "direct questions?" What’s next? I "lie?" Then, I’m a "moron?’

    Rinse and repeat. Typical troll behavior.

  113. RS: "You neglect to admit you were wrong. You neglect to admit the land was inhabited and that it was indeed being cultivated. Your wish to portray Palestine as being a land of a few sparse nomads has been busted and you now strike out, seeking to hide your blushes."

    I don’t think I’m wrong. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    And until you can actually define where this "Palestine" is where all this ethnic cleansing occurred, I’m not inclined to give much attention to you.

  114. Deary me, what on earth is she talking about? 🙂

  115. "I don’t think I’m wrong. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree"

    When it comes to objective facts, you don’t get that luxury.

  116. Hi

    You ain’t gonna agree so you may as well have a pint and allow me to derail this thing entirely into dialetic materialism, or materialism materialism is more like it.

    I’ve spent the entire day doing errands and buying stuff, including buying late, way after the fact Christmas presents! Amazon.com and other online places are the best ever.

    If the economy falls, its not my fault, lads and lasses. My consumer confidence is high.

    Does anyone here have Wii in their house? I am blown away at how sophisticated it is. Its not just for kids by any means.

    The Wii Fit exercise/fitness module is astonishingly good. It costs about $130 and is worth three times that. I could see an adult buying Wii, not for any of the games, but for the Fit module alone.

  117. RS, Petr

    I’ll solve this Gaza thing tomorrow. Tell your guys to quit shooting rockets and I’ll tell the Israelis to stop the bombings and incursions. Unless the first happens, the second cannot possibly happen. And we all know this.

  118. RS, Petr, what do you want to be done to the state of Israel? Don’t hold anything back now!