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Memorial Day Weekend

By Patrick Van Roy On May 25th, 2019

The first weekend of Summer and the day we say thank you to those that served.

98 Responses to “Memorial Day Weekend”

  1. Including John McCain?

  2. The function of a state is to serve its people.

  3. Nice clip Patrick.

    What a shame that two of the three men driving the USA to war with Iran are draft-dodgers. I give you Trump and Bolton. Pompeo served for five years but never saw action.

  4. https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/pete-buttigieg-takes-on-draft-dodger-donald-trump-60220997975

    The interesting Buttigieg directly addressed Trump’s draft evasion by means of doctor-assisted fraud the other day.

    It appears that no men of the Trump family in any generation have ever served in the military. The grandfather was expelled from Germany in the early twentieth century for evasion of military service

  5. The only people driving us to war Peter are the people threatening us.

    John McCain was a failure as a Pilot, a hero as a prisoner and a traitor as a Senator.

    And I do thank him for his service, even being a failure he still served.

  6. The grandfather was expelled from Germany in the early twentieth century for evasion of military service

    Interesting. The Austrian corporal fled from Vienna to Munich in 1913 for the same reason:

    “On the cold afternoon of January 18, 1914, a German police detective paid a visit to a dingy, poorly heated apartment in Munich, where he surprised and apprehended one Adolf Hietler—Austrian, artist, age 24—who had fled the Hapsburg realm in May 1913 to avoid military service. Germany and Austria-Hungary had an agreement to repatriate draft dodgers, so Hitler (as he chose to spell his name) was arrested and taken to the Austrian consulate, where he was ordered to report to his hometown of Linz, Austria, for a fitness exam.”

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/54605/1914-hitler-was-arrested-dodging-austrian-draft

  7. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/trump-grandfather-friedrich-banished-germany-historian-royal-decree

    The Trumps refuse to serve, any of them, ever.

    If Germany hadn’t expelled this draft dodger, they could have saved the US a great deal of trouble a century later.

  8. Fred Trump, the father, was of draft age during the second world war.

    Yet, no military service for him, either.

    My my.

  9. Even being a failure he still served

    You’ve a strange way of showing gratitude Pat.

  10. If Germany hadn’t expelled this draft dodger, they could have saved the US a great deal of trouble a century later.

    Yes, and if Germany had expelled Herr Hietler (correct name) in 1914, who knows how many millions of lives might have been spared in 1939 – 1945?

  11. Phantom,
    //Fred Trump, the father, was of draft age during the second world war.

    Yet, no military service for him, either.

    My my.//

    I hadn’t realised this Phantom and I was doing a bit more research on it based on your posts. It seems when it comes to patriotism, the Trumps draw the line at military service.

  12. There is nothing particularly wrong with a politician (or anyone else) not having done military service. There are plenty of ways of serving your country and fellow citizens without having fought in a war and all our political leaders should be endeavouring to create societies where the need for military services reduces year by year.

    Hopefully Trump who has admittedly so far avoided pandering to the warmongers will continue on the same path and not listen to the siren calls of those who want a little excitement with Iran.

  13. Obama and Clinton didn’t serve, the majority of Presidents haven’t served in the military. The majority of you commenting on Trumps service haven’t served.

    My question to those here is where are your balls except for Phantom and I who else has done their duty?

  14. Obama didn’t evade the draft.

    Clinton opposed the Vietnam War.

    It makes sense that he didn’t serve, possibly to be asked to fight in what he correctly saw as a wrong war.

    There is no evidence that Fred Trump opposed WW2.

    There is no contemporary evidence that Donald Trump opposed the Vietnam War. Unlike Clinton, he didn’t attend anti war protests etc. He didn’t want his tennis and golf playing career in college interrupted.

    There were many rich kids in Donald Trumps generation who did what he did – refused to serve their country, letting working class boys serve in their place – but most of them didn’t fraudulently pretend to have a disabling physical injury in doing so.

  15. My question to those here is where are your balls except for Phantom and I who else has done their duty?

    Where would you have had me ‘do my duty’ Pat?

    If you call sitting behind a desk in a USAF base ‘doing your duty’ then you did but make sure you don’t classify yourself in the same bracket as those who saw combat in Vietnam, the Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

    Where I come from that’s called sleeping on another man’s wound.

  16. I doubt that Paul gave much thought to serving in a British Army that was smacking people in his neighborhood around at the time.

    Not serving is one thing. Getting out of service by means of medical fraud is another thing.

  17. Phantom did your father serve, your grandfather, who beside you in your family has served?

    You want to judge people by their parents…. fine lets start with yours.

  18. I actually had two maternal uncles serve in elite regiments of the British armed forces in the sixties Phantom, both seeing combat in Aden, and their father, (my maternal grandfather), was in the Royal Navy in WWII.

    Then the Civil Rights campaign was brutally beaten off the streets and they came back home and put their military skills to use in defending their community.

  19. You should have served for your country Paul your country like it or not was part of the UK that has a great military, maybe if more NI served there would be more understanding between the people and the military.

    Native Americans serve in the US forces.

    As for “combat” service coming from someone who didn’t have the balls to sign up I find that laughable.

    Oh and my job wasn’t behind a desk.

  20. Paul McMahon, on May 26th, 2019 at 2:13 PM Said: Edit Comment
    I actually had two maternal uncles serve in elite regiments of the British armed forces in the sixties Phantom, both seeing combat in Aden, and their father, (my maternal grandfather), was in the Royal Navy in WWII.

    Then the Civil Rights campaign was brutally beaten off the streets and they came back home and put their military skills to use in defending their community.

    So they had no problem serving with the british…. it was just your lack of intestinal fortitude.

  21. I served, my wife served, my father served, my grandfather served, my great grandfather served. My daughter will be an officer at the end of her college. I have 4 members of my extended family on active duty right now.

    Lets start comparing family service shall we…. and then will get into service to the civilian community.

    You people want to judge others service when none of you have even bothered to go work your local polling places…. so please crawl back out of your mushroom laden rabbit holes and be real shall we.

  22. Is this thread going to turn Into a military willy waving competition 😉

  23. The idea of questioning anyones service who is holding the office of President is just a stupid conversation.

    I don’t care if it’s clinton, obama, trump…… look at their picture when they went into office and then look at them when they leave and tell me none of them served.

  24. Trying to bring it back the other way Colm

  25. Then the Civil Rights campaign was brutally beaten off the streets and they came back home and put their military skills to use in defending their community.

    So if they didn’t become cops they became terrorists.

  26. I too don’t care if a President served in the military or not. I care if they send young soldiers to die in wars that aren’t justified.

  27. define Justified

  28. So they had no problem serving with the british…. it was just your lack of intestinal fortitude.

    Please read this Pat:

    Then the Civil Rights campaign was brutally beaten off the streets and they came back home and put their military skills to use in defending their community

    Now, what do you think could have happened that made them feel they could no longer serve in the British military and that tens of thousands of Irish nationalists would feel the same?

    You should have served for your country Paul your country like it or not was part of the UK that has a great military

    Pat, my country is Ireland, (the UK isn’t a ‘country’). I defy you to say you would have served in a military that you viewed as an occupying foreign force from a foreign country that partitioned yours?

    I served, my wife served

    Did either Monica or yourself see active combat Pat?

  29. Justified is either as a response to a direct military attack from an enemy country or as part of a military alliance in defence of an attack on an ally.

  30. There is no country called Ireland…. Spaniard.

    There is the ROI and there is NI. You were a citizen of NI who serve in the British Military because NI is part of the UK.

    You can have your own feelings not your own facts.

    I saw more combat on the streets of Philly, but I threw several bunches of SF out of the back of my plane into combat.

  31. Colm, on May 26th, 2019 at 2:42 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Justified is either as a response to a direct military attack from an enemy country or as part of a military alliance in defence of an attack on an ally.

    so wait for the mushroom cloud.

  32. Turn the other cheek 😘

  33. can I just moon them?

    http://killing-moon.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/mooning-gnome-2.jpg

  34. Now if only that gnome had a big fat cigar in his mouth…. 😉

  35. Of course there’s a country called Ireland, it was partitioned and artificially formed into two states in 1921.

    You were a citizen of NI who serve in the British Military because NI is part of the UK.

    My passport says that I’m Irish. There is no country called the United Kingdom nor no nationality called United Kingdomish.

    As I state above

    I defy you to say you would have served in a military that you viewed as an occupying foreign force from a foreign country that partitioned yours?

    I saw more combat on the streets of Philly

    So you never saw combat then?

  36. nope sorry no such place as Ireland except in a fantasy sold to children

    nope I never saw combat in the military. I’ve been shot at and was stabbed in Philly.

  37. Nope sorry no such place as Ireland

    I fixed that for you Pat as I know your geography sometimes isn’t great:

    http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2010/11/%C3%ACreland-space-full.jpg

    That island on the left is Ireland and that larger one on the right is Britain. Hope that helps.

    Nope I never saw combat in the military

    No problem:

    …Don’t classify yourself in the same bracket as those who saw combat in Vietnam, the Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

    Where I come from that’s called sleeping on another man’s wound.

  38. I’ve never stolen glory you owe me an apology…….. and a serious one.

  39. Only a fool serves for the sake of “serving”.

    The function of a state is to serve its people, not the other way round.

  40. I’ve never stolen glory you owe me an apology…

    Let me state here that I’ve never, ever accused you of stealing glory but what I have done on a few occasions is to define the differences between ‘doing your duty’ and serving in a combat zone.

    I repeat that I have never, ever accused anyone of stealing anyone’s glory but will happily apologise if my comments weren’t clear enough as to be interpreted in that way.

  41. explanation accepted Paul.

    Thank You

  42. Noel people serve because it is an Honor and our duty to serve our country and our fellow man.

  43. Explanation accepted Paul.

    Thank You

    No problem.

    Noel people serve because it is an Honor and our duty to serve our country and our fellow man

    Absolutey incorrect. As Noel says, the state exists to serve its prople not vice versa:

    If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie:
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46560/dulce-et-decorum-est

  44. “Noel people serve because it is an Honor and our duty to serve our country and our fellow man.”

    But as you pointed out, state-wise (and as such military-wise), our country doesn’t exist. And serving in the army of our occupier would be the opposite of doing our duty to our country.

  45. Seamus that’s an excuse I can accept.

  46. Family Duty, Honor, God, and Country. We Serve first.

  47. It’s not an excuse Pat. It’s a fact, hence:

    I defy you to say you would have served in a military that you viewed as an occupying foreign force from a foreign country that partitioned yours?

  48. lol…. concede

  49. Family Duty, Honor, God, and Country. We Serve first

    Absolute rubbish. Have you ever seen anyone shot dead Pat? I’ve seen three. One of them was in 1981 when I was fourteen and a soldier maybe five or six years older than me at the time was hit by a sniper, most likely the around the same age as himself, on the Mona Road in Turf Lodge in West Belfast. You know what his patrol did? They scattered completely and left the shot soldier lying there. I watched it from fifty feet way and can still hear that poor kind screaming in pain for his mother.

    So tell me Pat, apart from breaking his poor mother’s heart what did that young man’s death give to his family? What ‘honour’ or good did it do for his country.

    If you speak to any combat vetran they’ll tell you that it’s nothing like in the movies and all that guff about glory and duty is horseshit.

  50. Well said Paul.

  51. I’ve seen 2 people shot dead one 5 ft from me and I ran to his aid. As you watched did the thought of going to help him enter your mind. Run to his aid? Hold his hand as he died?

    and I’ve been on hand for multiple other horrors. I grew up in in one of the most violent cities in the country.

    During the 30 years of the “troubles” 3600 people were killed. In that same time period 12,000 people were murdered in my city. You don’t know real violence.

  52. My grandmother was a Republican and a pacifist in almost equal measure. She had a particular scorn for violence, especially unnecessary violence. She had a great turn of phrase. Any halfwit can die for his country. It isn’t difficult. It isn’t brave. The real bravery is to take the conscious decision to live for your country.

  53. As you watched did the thought of going to help him enter your mind. Run to his aid? Hold his hand as he died?

    An occupying soldier, me barely into my teenage years and a sniper on a rooftop? Of course I didn’t. No doubt you feel good about coming to the aid of that person shot dead but seeing someone killed as a result of a crime etc isn’t exactly the same as a young teenager witnessing an occupying soldier being shot by a sniper in a conflict situation.

    During the 30 years of the “troubles” 3600 people were killed. In that same time period 12,000 people were murdered in my city.

    And? Belfast, where the majority of the causualties happened, has a population of some 300,000. What’s that against Philli’s population?

    You don’t know real violence.

    It’s not a competition but when you experience communal conflict violence like riots, gunbattles, bomb scares and actual bombs then you can come back to me and speak about real violence.

  54. you don’t serve to die.

    it is not your job to die for your country it’s your job to make sure the other poor son of a bitch dies for his……

    Not everyone can serve, and that’s ok also.

  55. “And? Belfast, where the majority of the causualties happened, has a population of some 300,000. What’s that against Philli’s population?”

    To be fair Philadelphia isn’t that big. About 1.5 million people. Over the course of the Troubles 1,500 people (1,541 according to Sutton) were killed in Belfast. So about 53 per year on average for a population about 300 thousand. Philadelphia in that same period of time averaged about 425 murders a year in a city about 5 times the size.

    So about 8 times the murders in a city 5 times the size.

    But yay second amendment and all that.

  56. It is not your job to die for your country

    So,

    Family Duty, Honor, God, and Country. We Serve first

    That’s not true then?

    It’s your job to make sure the other poor son of a bitch dies for his……

    I’ll state again, there’s a difference between ‘serving’ and experiencing being in combat where you ‘make sure the other poor son of a bitch dies for his’

  57. “it is not your job to die for your country it’s your job to make sure the other poor son of a bitch dies for his……”

    Killing people in some far off fucked up place doesn’t serve your country.

  58. It’s not a competition but when you experience communal conflict violence like riots, gunbattles, bomb scares and actual bombs then you can come back to me and speak about real violence.

    No it’s not a contest Paul and regretfully going down your list the only thing I haven’t experienced is an actual bomb explosion. I don’t talk about or whine about shootings, kniffings, or riots. I don’t discuss the dead or glorify the violence that took place around me growing up.

    I carry a gun, and when my children were born we moved.

  59. So about 8 times the murders in a city 5 times the size.

    This is the point I make Seamus:

    Seeing someone killed as a result of a crime etc isn’t exactly the same as a young teenager witnessing an occupying soldier being shot by a sniper in a conflict situation […]

    When you experience communal conflict violence like riots, gunbattles, bomb scares and actual bombs then you can come back to me and speak about real violence

    Belfast and Philli is a flawed comparison.

  60. “Belfast and Philli is a flawed comparison.”

    Absolutely. My point was that body count is not the way to point out the flaws.

    And inter-communal gang violence in many American cities, amplified by poor policing, and easy access to weaponry, would probably result in many areas having a conflict like feel to them.

  61. My shot at you in those comments was the fact that a man was dying on the ground 50ft from you and you did nothing.

    That’s not how I was raised. Whether he was wearing a uniform or a ski mask he was dying.

    You Act.

    My conscience won’t allow otherwise.

  62. “That’s not how I was raised. Whether he was wearing a uniform or a ski mask he was dying.”

    So in the middle of a gun battle in Afghanistan do America troops run across no man’s land to hold the hands of dying Taliban?

  63. I don’t talk about or whine about shootings, kniffings, or riots. I don’t discuss the dead or glorify the violence that took place around me growing up.

    No?

    And I’ve been on hand for multiple other horrors. I grew up in in one of the most violent cities in the country.

    During the 30 years of the “troubles” 3600 people were killed. In that same time period 12,000 people were murdered in my city. You don’t know real violence.

    You absolutely glorify violence Pat. You glorify violence every single opportunity that you get.

  64. The fact that a man was dying on the ground 50ft from you and you did nothing.

    Absolutely. And if you’re going to tell me that you, barely into your teenage years seeing an occupying foreign soldier being shot dead by a sniper would have done any different I’d say you were talking horseshit.

  65. yeah Americans on the battlefield will shoot you and then try to save your life Seamus.

  66. “yeah Americans on the battlefield will shoot you and then try to save your life Seamus.”

    But during a gun battle they would run across no man’s land, during the battle, bullets flying everywhere, just to hold the hand of a dying Taliban?

    Bollocks they would.

  67. These are not criticisms gentlemen. Very few Americans were even raised as I was.

    From the time I could speak these things were drummed into my head. My first time firing a gun I was 8. By the time I was 13 I was shooting in a league. When I was 10 I was enrolled in gymnastics and kickboxing at 16 I was doing ride alongs with both police and fire. At 18 I was enlisted.

    This is my family business protect and serve.

    And Paul I don’t glorify violence, but I understand it’s necessary use.

  68. “And Paul I don’t glorify violence, but I understand it’s necessary use.”

    You do glorify violence. Repeatedly and often you have reveled in the idea of bombing this group or bombing that group. Not believed it is a necessary evil.

    “This is my family business protect and serve.”

    Honest question. When you were in the military who did you protect and serve?

  69. These are not criticisms gentlemen. Very few Americans were even raised as I was

    Pat, let me repeat this:

    If you’re going to tell me that you, barely into your teenage years seeing an occupying foreign soldier being shot dead by a sniper would have done any different I’d say you were talking horseshit.

    Like you I was raised with certain values and like you at an early age I was doing combatitive contact sports.

    These are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you’re goin to tell me that you as a fourteen year old would have given soccour to a dying occupying soldier with a sniper on the loose then I’m going to tell you I think you’re talking nonsense.

    As said previously, combat situations are very different from Hollywood movies.

  70. It seems when it comes to patriotism, the Trumps draw the line at military service.

    They also draw the line at paying taxes. Trump’s father passed on his fortune in such a way that nothing was paid and Trump refuses to releases his tax returns because they will show that he has paid very little, if anything, for years.

  71. Trump has said he did his Vietnam duty by avoiding venereal disease in New York City.

  72. I wouldn’t doubt that his taxes will show

    Embarrassing Sources of financing

    No or nearly no charitable donations

    Highly questionable deductions

  73. //This is my family business protect and serve. //

    I don’t understand that.

    Instead of talking about your family all the time, why didn’t you just make a career of the army or join the police?

  74. Patrick – exactly what is it that you claim to be willing ‘to protect and serve’?

  75. Like you I was raised with certain values and like you at an early age I was doing combatitive contact sports.

    These are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you’re goin to tell me that you as a fourteen year old would have given soccour to a dying occupying soldier with a sniper on the loose then I’m going to tell you I think you’re talking nonsense.

    As said previously, combat situations are very different from Hollywood movies.

    //This is my family business protect and serve. //

    I don’t understand that.

    Instead of talking about your family all the time, why didn’t you just make a career of the army or join the police?

    Noel/Paul

    one doesn’t understand and the other…. wants what bragging rights?

    I’ve been shot at 3 times, not been at the shooting been the actual target. I’ve been on the seen for 3 killings two by gun and one buy knife at a race riot. I didn’t go into my background because I have numerous times and really didn’t feel it necessary.

    I was raised to be Cop and not just a beat cop I was raised to hunt men in an urban combat environment. The only reason I am not a cop noel is the side of a building collapsed on me and crippled me. boo fuckin hoo

    I talk about my family out of Pride we are the best at what we do, we’ve hunted and put down animals for over 100yrs.

    There are People in society that are a threat to the general public. 10% of the criminal element commit 90% of the violent crime. My family protects and serves the General Public by dealing with societies animals.

    That soldier was picked off by an animal if he had missed the soldier and hit a woman would you have just hid there and listened to her scream…. I couldn’t for either.

    When gangbangers, mafioso, or so called freedom fighters start exchanging shots with each other or the authorities they care nothing for the civilians in the way. People get shot all the time. Gun fire happens everyday where I grew up. I was raised and trained to run into those situations. If you are not shooting you grab the wounded and you don’t look to see who they are only that they are bleeding.

    My time in the military was boring, it was a vacation away from war.

    I stepped away from this thread cause I could see where it was going.

    You see the world different than I do, you will never understand me and there are pieces of you I will never understand.

    The person was shot, screaming and dying. You give aid, I’ve done it. My question was why didn’t you? A simple I was scared, I’ve been in those situations and if anyone tells you that they aren’t scared they’re lying most people flee, which is smart. For some that’s when training kicks in and you act.

    Now you can all go to hell.

  76. Noel/Paul

    one doesn’t understand and the other…. wants what bragging rights?

    Pat, I don’t know who that’s addressed to or what it refers to but I certainly don’t want or need ‘bragging rights’

    That soldier was picked off by an animal if he had missed the soldier and hit a woman would you have just hid there and listened to her scream…. I couldn’t for either.

    But he didn’t miss the soldier and hit a woman Pat, he killed a soldier. Something that hidden snipers have done hundreds of thousands of times in conflict situations.

    When gangbangers, mafioso, or so called freedom fighters start exchanging shots with each other or the authorities they care nothing for the civilians in the way.

    Too bad, wrong place wrong time. Shit happens

    The person was shot, screaming and dying. You give aid, I’ve done it. My question was why didn’t you? A simple I was scared

    Of course I was fucking scared. Seeing a heavily armed soldier being shot by a concealed sniper and his colleagues scattering in panic to leave the poor kid to die is not remotely comparable to seeing some poor mug shot in a hold up or something.

    He was an occupying soldier, there was a concealed sniper somewhere, of course I didn’t rush over and give aid or succor and I challenge any grown man here or anywhere else to say the whould have reacted any way differently to a kid barely past his fourteenth birthday.

    You see the world different than I do, you will never understand me and there are pieces of you I will never understand

    That may be because Noel and I have seen more of the world than you and we come from different countries, cultures, situations and environments.

    Now you can all go to hell.

    There’s no need to be so belligerant and lose the head Pat. We’re only having a civil conversation here.

  77. Paul

    Surely you know by now that when Pat tells us all to go to hell that’s just his playful little way of telling us how much he loves us 🥰

  78. no you’re not having a civil conversation.

    You hid there and listened to a man scream for his mother as he died and you did nothing. When I call you on it you accuse me of not knowing what being in a live shooting is like.

    and then the best part this is the best part….

    Seeing a heavily armed soldier being shot by a concealed sniper and his colleagues scattering in panic to leave the poor kid to die is not remotely comparable to seeing some poor mug shot in a hold up or something.

    So tell me Paul how many people have you seen shot?

    What’s scarier standing 50 meters away from someone being hit with a sniper shot or watching someone less than 2 meters from you get shot point blank with a .45 ? Is the blood and screaming different? More frightening at 5o meters than 2?

    Do you know the difference between being there when someone dies from a knife wound and gun shot? It’s the smell. The blood and screaming is the same as well as the crushing feeling when they fall silent as they pass.

    I feel for the things that you went through, I believe that both sides were wrong in the Troubles. I understand the anger and the humiliation of what you felt. You’ve described it well and I understand.

    But my friend as bad as it got at times at it’s worst it was peaceful compared to living in a any major American city let alone Philly. I grew up in a warzone. You grew up where there was occasional violence. It isn’t I who doesn’t know what they are talking about when it comes to violent situations and watching people not just strangers but people you care about die from that violence. Which is why I brought my girls to grow up out here among the Amish.

    Philadelphia consistently ranks above the national average in terms of crime, especially violent offenses. It has the highest violent crime rate of the ten American cities with a population greater than 1 million residents as well as the highest poverty rate among these cities. It has been included in real estate analytics company NeighborhoodScout’s “Top 100 Most Dangerous Cities in America” list every year since it has been compiled.

    I respect your pain and anger, but don’t think others haven’t been through the same or worse. We just don’t whine about it.

    You have become a friend and I respect you, but dude you are not the only one to experience violence first hand.

    Sorry for losing my temper.

  79. Not that I have much to add to this ‘competition’ but FWIW I have spent my whole life in inner city London and while I am not naive about violent crime I have never seen anyone being stabbed and to my knowledge never even heard a gunshot or seen a gun in civilian hands. I have however thankfully well in the past heard quite a few IRA bombs going off in my city.

  80. That was my whole original point Colm

    I didn’t want a pissing contest because they are stupid. Paul has been through traumatic events of violence I acknowledge that what my point is he’s not the only one who has seen real violence up close and personal.

    When he said he stood there an listened to a dying person scream who was abandoned and no one went to provide aid or comfort I freaked. It hit a nerve. Every fiber of my body would be screaming to get to someone in agony gunshots or no gunshots. You don’t leave someone in the street screaming no matter what side they are on in your mind.

    An no matter what Paul thinks Belfast even during the Troubles was not a warzone.

  81. This was your original point Pat:

    Family Duty, Honor, God, and Country. We Serve first

    I recounted the killing of a soldier I witnessed as a fourteen year old as an example of how fruitless that kind of empty rhetoric is. I finished the recounting with:

    Apart from breaking his poor mother’s heart what did that young man’s death give to his family? What ‘honour’ or good did it do for his country?

    If you speak to any combat vetran they’ll tell you that it’s nothing like in the movies and all that guff about glory and duty is horseshit.

    Now, this was a comment to demonstrate the futility of such patriotic bravado but you have seemingly took it as a slight against your masculinity and reeled off the violent incidents that you’ve been involved in. Well done, I’m glad you survived these but I really don’t know what you’re trying to convince me of. I’ve said to you more than once that I found the US to be an incredibley violent society.

    You hid there and listened to a man scream for his mother as he died and you did nothing. When I call you on it you accuse me of not knowing what being in a live shooting is like

    I’d like to deal with the second part of that quote first.

    At no stage in this conversation or, to my knowledge, any other conversation have I ever stated that you don’t know what being in a live shooting is like. Never, ever.

    I don’t know if the above quote was designed to wind me up but I did take mild umbrage at the insinuation of cowardice in it. Firstly I did not ‘hide’ and I watched it from fifty feet away which is considerably closer than fifty metres.

    You explained that you saw a guy being shot from two metres away and then comforted him as he died then asked me why I didn’t do the same. I don’t think that the two situations are even remotely comparable.

    The death you saw was presumably a result of a crime or an accident which would also assume that in the first instance the danger had passed and in the second instance the danger to you was minimal. You know why snipers are used by the military? Not just because of the physical casualties they inflict but because of the psychological element of the uncertainty.

    I saw a soldier being shot by a sniper, the uncertainty of where it came from. Is he still there? will he fire again? Will the soldiers return fire and will we be caught in the middle of a gun battle? All these and more along with the fear and panic of such a situation and more are why I didn’t give succor to a shot soldier. I think you’re asking the wrong question, it shouldn’t be why did a fourteen year old kid not run fifty feet over a potential killing zone to comfort a British soldier but rather why you’re asking that of a fouteen year old kid and not the seven other heavily armed professionally trained soldiers that were with him?

    Now, I’m going to ask you and anyone else who may wish to comment on it:

    What would you, either as a fourteen year old kid or the middle aged man you are now have done in such a situation? If your answer has any elements of heroic Rambo machoness I’d say you’re talking bullshit gleaned from watching too many Hollywood movies. It’s just not like that.

    An no matter what Paul thinks Belfast even during the Troubles was not a warzone.

    There are (tens of) thousands of people in both Ireland and Britain who would disagree with that statement Pat and I have no idea how you reach that conclusion or verify your claim as you have literally never been outside the US never mind being in Belfast in the seventies and eighties.

    Our online acquaintance has developed to where we enjoy conversing with each other to the extent that we could be considered ‘friends’ if such a thing exists in cyberspace. I really hope the way this thread seems to be going doesn’t affect that negatively.

    I have however thankfully well in the past heard quite a few IRA bombs going off in my city.

    Amen to that Colm. May it say in the past where it belongs.

  82. At 14, I would have stayed out of that immediate situation. And today, I’d do the same thing.

    It’s a horrifying situation for a young person or anyone else to be in, but I see no choice.

    There is no bad or questionable action to be called on. All here would have done the same thing.

  83. I can’t imagine any 14 year old behaving differently than Paul, yes including a 14 year old Patrick.

  84. Paul you make this statement.

    At no stage in this conversation or, to my knowledge, any other conversation have I ever stated that you don’t know what being in a live shooting is like. Never, ever.

    This is what you said that set me off.

    Like you I was raised with certain values and like you at an early age I was doing combatitive contact sports.
    These are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you’re goin to tell me that you as a fourteen year old would have given soccour to a dying occupying soldier with a sniper on the loose then I’m going to tell you I think you’re talking nonsense.
    As said previously, combat situations are very different from Hollywood movies.

    That right there is you saying exactly that I have no idea what I’m talking about, that the only point of view I have is that of a Hollywood movie. While at the same time saying that at 14 there are no people let alone me going to give aid during a shooting.

    And I’m telling you you’re wrong. You saw a soldier get shot and yes it was scary. All shooting situations are scary.

    In Belfast how many shootings a year are there ? Less than a 100 I believe.

    In Philly the avg a year is 1400, last year was a good one there were only 1342. The avg age of the victim is 15. That’s an avg of 4 a day. It might be fair to say that a city that see that many victims a day that the people in that city might act different ? Especially those already being trained to respond.

    Your views and your reactions are based on where and how you were raised.

  85. Philadelphia, like Chicago is a very large city – 142 square miles.

    In Chicago, a huge number of the shootings are confined to a few very bad neighborhoods and are largely bad guy vs bad guy.

    Is Philadelphia different from Chicago in this respect?

  86. Phantom – could you be a bit more specific on the description of these ‘bad guys’, or shall I link to the Daily Stormer for you?

  87. If you’re goin to tell me that you as a fourteen year old would have given soccour to a dying occupying soldier with a sniper on the loose then I’m going to tell you I think you’re talking nonsense.

    Pat, how you translated that into:

    You don’t know what being in a live shooting is like

    I quite simply have never accused you of such a thing.

    And I’m telling you you’re wrong.

    I absolutely think you’re incorrect and I think that any honest person would give the answer that Phantom and Colm have given. What makes you think you’d have done what seven heavily armed and professionally trained soldiers didn’t?

    In Belfast how many shootings a year are there ? Less than a 100 I believe.

    Difficult to define. There were plenty of bombs as well and the incidents of shooting are totally different to what you experienced:

    The death you saw was presumably a result of a crime or an accident which would also assume that in the first instance the danger had passed and in the second instance the danger to you was minimal. You know why snipers are used by the military? Not just because of the physical casualties they inflict but because of the psychological element of the uncertainty

    But again, my sniper recollection was in the context of:

    I recounted the killing of a soldier I witnessed as a fourteen year old as an example of how fruitless that kind of empty rhetoric is. I finished the recounting with:

    Apart from breaking his poor mother’s heart what did that young man’s death give to his family? What ‘honour’ or good did it do for his country?

    If you speak to any combat vetran they’ll tell you that it’s nothing like in the movies and all that guff about glory and duty is horseshit.

    Now, this was a comment to demonstrate the futility of such patriotic bravado but you have seemingly took it as a slight against your masculinity and reeled off the violent incidents that you’ve been involved in. Well done, I’m glad you survived these but I really don’t know what you’re trying to convince me of. I’ve said to you more than once that I found the US to be an incredibley violent society

    As I said above, I’ve said to you more than once that I found the US to be an incredibley violent society, so there’s really no need to turn this into a pissing contest.

  88. Murder in Philadelphia would be overwhelmingly black versus black

  89. https://billypenn.com/2017/06/28/philly-2017-homicide-map-where-why-and-who/

    Philadelphia murders are very neighborhood specific . As are murders in Chicago.

    I’ve been saying this for years here

  90. of course their are neighborhoods that are worse than others. These neighborhoods are not as spread out as they are in NYC, pull up your link look at that map and that’s just murders not shootings. There are no area’s of safety only areas that aren’t as violent.

    NYC covers 321 sqmi twice the size of Philly and averages less than 1000 shootings a year only 2/3rds of the shootings as Philly in twice the area.

  91. No area anywhere has 100 percent safety but Philly has areas that I’d regard as safe, areas of tidy houses where people are out at night

    But the vast wasteland of north Philadelphia? No thanks. It’s menacing at any hour.

    https://www.movoto.com/guide/philadelphia-pa/safest-neighborhoods-in-philadelphia/

  92. I absolutely think you’re incorrect and I think that any honest person would give the answer that Phantom and Colm have given. What makes you think you’d have done what seven heavily armed and professionally trained soldiers didn’t?

    there you go again calling me a liar…….

    We agree to disagree. I’m done with the thread.

  93. Large swaths of Philadelphia, Cleveland and Detroit never recovered from the 1964 – 1968 era race riots

    In some neighborhoods, all the whites moved out in a short time, while very many of the small businesses closed down, many of them having been burned down by rioters.

    I’m no expert on these places, but I’ve traveled through them, on foot, private car, mass transit and on bike ( north Philadelphia in the day )

    You can buy a house for $25,000 in Camden NJ ( near Philly ) or Detroit, but you would not want to.

    https://www.philly.com/philly/news/Gathering_.html

  94. in 1985 the city dropped a bomb on wannabe terrorists and destroyed 65 houses and burned 11 people alive.

    and that happened 3 blocks from one of the most prestigious schools in the country.

    That’s just Philly

  95. There you go again calling me a liar…….

    I’m not calling you a liar and haven’t called you a liar even once on this thread.

    It’s a disagreement about how you would react in a hypothetical situation. A hypothesis isn’t a truth for me to accuse you of lying with.

    Again I’d defy anyone, fourteen year old kid or middle aged man, to do what seven heavily armed professionally trained soldiers wouldn’t do.

  96. when you say someone is NOT being honest what are you saying ?

  97. Please read this again Pat:

    “It’s a disagreement about how you would react in a hypothetical situation. A hypothesis isn’t a truth for me to accuse you of lying with”

    You can’t be accused of being honest or dishonest when there is no truth for you to be honest or dishonest with.

    Let me again repeat this comment:

    “Again I’d defy anyone, fourteen year old kid or middle aged man, to do what seven heavily armed professionally trained soldiers wouldn’t do”

  98. …….