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Lyra’s Walk

By Patrick Van Roy On May 30th, 2019

Guest Post by Seimi

 

On Saturday, 25th May, a couple of hundred people left Writer’s Square in Belfast, and began the long 3-day walk to Derry. They were walkinbg in protest at the murder of journalist Lyra McKee, who was murdered in the Creggan area of Derry, by a group calling itself the Real IRA. They were also walking to show their frustration at the failure to fully implement the Good Friday Agreement, signed, almost to the day, 21 years previously.

The walkers walked beyond Randalstown, to a field approximately 25 miles from their starting point, where they camped for the night, before moving off the following morning. Due to roadworks and on the advice of the PSNI, they were bussed to their next starting point at the Glenshane Pass, were they continued on into Dungiven. Many pitched their tents on the sidelines of a local GGA club’s pitch, whilst many others availed of the kind offer of a bed for the night from the local community. That night, a packed house attended a panel debate on the subject of ‘Having Difficult Conversations,’ which included such people as Jo Berry, whose father was killed in the IRA bomb in Brighton, as well as Michael Culbert, director of Coiste na nIarchimí, the support network for Republican ex-prisoners. The debate was fascinating and at times heated, with a couple of audience members, one of which was Lyra’s partner, walking out when Michael Culbert spoke.

The following day, the walkers left Dungiven early in the morning, to walk the final leg in to Derry. They were joined along the way by Snow Patrol frontman, Gary Lightbody, who performed onstage at Guildhall Square in Derry at the finale event. There were speakers onstage as well, including Richard Moore, blinded by a rubber bullet in 1972, as well as a member of the organising group for the walk. Finally, Nichola McKee Corner, Lyra’s sister spoke, offering to meet with the gunman who shot her younger sister, “…at any police staion on this island…” if he was willing to give himself up.

This was a symbolic march. No-one who walked or participated in any way, expected to achieve peace, but what it did do was make people realise just how many people want the GFA to be implemented in full. It showed just how many people want our elected representatives to take the appropriate steps towards ensuring that we no longer bury young, talented citizens of this country because of the violence of others.

I was proud to have been part of it.

158 Responses to “Lyra’s Walk”

  1. Randalstown,… Dungiven…..

    Sounds very like a reenactment of the famous Belfast to Derry Civil Rights march in 1969 that was ambushed by Specials and Loyalists and triggered the Troubles.

    BTW, a bad few weeks for Sinn Fein, losing ground seriously in local and EU elections in both the North and the South.
    I think in the South at least that can be seen as a sign that the economy is getting better.

  2. Maith thú.

    Is it correct the some of the audience walked out when Mickey Culbert suggested that Saoradh should have been invited in order that difficult conversations could take place? Pretty insensitive and more than a bit presumptuous I would have thought?

    SF lost ground in the North Noel? I wasn’t aware. They did disasterously in local gov elections in the 26. I’m sure the back room boys will begoing through things with a fine tooth comb trying to identify causes.

    I felt bad for Lynn Boylan losing her MEP seat. She’s a sincere and hard working public representative.

  3. Finally, Nichola McKee Corner, Lyra’s sister spoke, offering to meet with the gunman who shot her younger sister, “…at any police staion on this island…” if he was willing to give himself up.

    I thought that arrests had been made?

    Pretty grey day there buddy

  4. Three people were arrested but all were released without charge.

  5. They were joined along the way by Snow Patrol frontman, Gary Lightbody, who performed onstage at Guildhall Square in Derry at the finale event.

    I’d have walked three days back the other way to avoid that.

  6. Paul,
    He said that he thought they should been invited so they could be challenged. It was a fair point, perhaps badly phrased.

  7. Phantom,
    The weather was very unkind to us at times 😂

  8. It showed just how many people want our elected representatives to take the appropriate steps towards ensuring that we no longer bury young, talented citizens of this country because of the violence of others.

    Good luck with that Seimi. The current talks are already on the verge of breakdown. We need to accept the reality that the DUP and Shinners have hit issues that they will never ever ever agree on, namely Irish language and marriage equality and abortion reform. It is time to close Stormont and revert to direct rule with input from Dublin, but the problems are:

    1. Brexit – will it happen this year and if so how will it affect the border?

    2. Tory leadership: see 1 above.

    3. The Ulster Unionist Party – have they a future or should they split between their Alliance and DUP wings and depart the scene?

    4. Will there be a UK General Election this year and if so how will the outcome affect NI? The DUP alliance with the Tories expires in July in any case.

    5. The abortion issue could be solved by the abolition of the 1865 Act of Parliament which underpins the current draconian regime. There will be a Labour private member’s bill soon which may well get government support. The DUP will learn the lesson: never trust the Tories.

  9. Seimi

    Good of you to take this important walk and write up a post about it.

    I think the Lyra McKee murder shocked people who thought this was in the past.

    However, I don’t see a connection between restoring Stormont and stopping murder. In the case of Lyra’s murder, people in the community know who is responsible and are not turning them in. The key to stopping murder of this type is a community that really wants it to end and demonstrates that by coming forward to help prosecute the murderers.

    I think Lyra’s partner was absolutely right to walk out when Saoradh came up. They should be shunned by everyone. They try to justify murders like that of Lyra and need to go away.

  10. Having Difficult Conversations

    that’s the difference between civilized men and our animal side.

  11. Good luck with that Seimi. The current talks are already on the verge of breakdown. We need to accept the reality that the DUP and Shinners have hit issues that they will never ever ever agree on, namely Irish language and marriage equality and abortion reform. It is time to close Stormont and revert to direct rule with input from Dublin,

    I get what you’re saying Peter. However, this isn’t just about who governs. The GFA was endorsed by over 70% of the people who voted, and 21 years later it still hasn’t been implemented. The political vacuum created by parties getting bogged down in their personal red lines enabled hopelessness and violence to take over. It needs to be implemented, because it is our best hope of peace.

    In the case of Lyra’s murder, people in the community know who is responsible and are not turning them in. The key to stopping murder of this type is a community that really wants it to end and demonstrates that by coming forward to help prosecute the murderers.

    To date, over 160 people from that community have come forward with information relating to the murder, New Yorker. Implying they don’t want the violence to end is hugely unfair. I’ve spoken to many people from the Creggan, and every single one of them is disgusted at what happened. Many people from the estate attended the walk and the event in Derry. They are afraid of repercussions, but they have still come out against the people who murdered Lyra.

    However, I don’t see a connection between restoring Stormont and stopping murder.

    Again, that isn’t what I said, nor was it a demand/wish of the walk. We wanted to call on our elected representatives to stop bickering about their pet peeves and instead implement the best piece of legislation to bring about a proper end to the political violence and murder for good. I know that the implementation of the GFA is reliant upon a return to Stormont, however restoration was not a demand/appeal that we made.

    I think Lyra’s partner was absolutely right to walk out when Saoradh came up.

    I disagree, but it was her choice, and I can understand why she did it. But Saoradh were not brought up to be lauded by anyone. Michael Culbert said that he thought they should have been invited so they could be challenged on what had happened. How can anything be solved by not having that type of difficult conversation?

  12. Thank you for sharing Seimi, and we’ll done.

  13. very good piece Seimi

    How can anything be solved by not having that type of difficult conversation?

    truth

  14. All problems can be solved if people listen carefully to my views …. and then agree with me 😉

  15. //How can anything be solved by not having that type of difficult conversation?….
    implement the best piece of legislation to bring about a proper end to the political violence and murder for good.//

    What kind of legislation would that be?

    The “New IRA” is still looking for the same old “32-County Socialist Republic”. I don’t know what new laws could appease that wish. Irish people voted overwhelmingly for an agreement that allowed everyone decide what nationality he or she wanted, that gave political parity and complete equality before the law to both traditions, and that put a stop to London rule for its own sake.

    If anyone rejects that, and tries to get public attention to their lost cause by killing people, they don’t deserve to be respected or listened to.

  16. If anyone rejects that, and tries to get public attention to their lost cause by killing people, they don’t deserve to be respected or listened to.

    no they deserve to be hunted caged or killed.

  17. //they deserve to be hunted caged or killed.//

    But, Patrick, you said above, twice, that we should have dialogue with the organisation that backs these killers.

  18. yes we should have dialogue. but part of the dialogue has to include the penalty for those who use violence Noel.

    The one part of the hard conversations that need to take place is the fact that no side gets to use violence, and if they do they will be hunted down caged or killed.

    That has to be the heart of the discussion.

    Violence to get public attention is unacceptable. You can’t allow those that use that tactic to go unmolested by the authorities.

    What Seimi participated in above is how it should be done. It is the only way, but there are those who no matter what will want to use violence. Those elements have to be made aware it’s unacceptable no matter the circumstances to use violence that all it will get them is greater violence.

    For some reason that I don’t grasp that fact seems to always be forgotten over there.

  19. “The one part of the hard conversations that need to take place is the fact that no side gets to use violence, and if they do they will be hunted down caged or killed.”

    Except those people who use violence that you support?

  20. no one should use violence, but the people I support Seamus are the Legal Authorities.

    If they use violence in RESPONSE to violence well that’s justified. If they are using violence without violent provocation then they should be caged or killed also.

    The Laws have to apply to all sides. If the authorities are breaking the Law they need to be punished twice as hard, but by the courts not with civilian violence.

  21. “no one should use violence, but the people I support Seamus are the Legal Authorities.”

    So you do support violence, just on certain terms?

  22. “The Laws have to apply to all sides. If the authorities are breaking the Law they need to be punished twice as hard, but by the courts not with civilian violence.”

    And if the courts don’t punish them? If they consistently refuse to? If the authorities try to pass laws to prevent the courts punishing them?

  23. Seimi

    “To date, over 160 people from that community have come forward with information relating to the murder, New Yorker. Implying they don’t want the violence to end is hugely unfair.” Yet, nobody has been charged and tried. The murderers did not drop in from Mars. They probably live in Creggan or nearby. Somebody has had to have seen or heard something suspicious. I’m sure they want violence to end but it takes more than that to suss out and collect evidence for a trial.

    “Again, that isn’t what I said, nor was it a demand/wish of the walk. We wanted to call on our elected representatives to stop bickering about their pet peeves and instead implement the best piece of legislation to bring about a proper end to the political violence and murder for good.” I maintain they answer lies not with “elected representatives” but with individuals in the community in which the murder occurred.

    “Michael Culbert said that he thought they should have been invited so they could be challenged on what had happened.” Saroadh recently said they do not represent the “New IRA” which is, of course, a lie. But it shows how despicable Saroadh are and why they should not be given any oxygen.

  24. And if the courts don’t punish them? If they consistently refuse to? If the authorities try to pass laws to prevent the courts punishing them?

    Then you organize larger protests like the one above. Peaceful Protests.

  25. ” Yet, nobody has been charged and tried. The murderers did not drop in from Mars. They probably live in Creggan or nearby. Somebody has had to have seen or heard something suspicious. I’m sure they want violence to end but it takes more than that to suss out and collect evidence for a trial.”

    Not necessarily. People may know who did it. But as you said it takes more than that to collect evidence for a trial.

  26. “Then you organize larger protests like the one above. Peaceful Protests.”

    And when the Army shoots 14 of those protesters dead?

  27. Seamus

    “And if the courts don’t punish them? If they consistently refuse to? If the authorities try to pass laws to prevent the courts punishing them?” Please give actual examples of when the courts consistently refuse and which specific authorities are trying to pass what specific laws to prevent courts punishing them.”

  28. If they are peaceful protesters shot without provocation then you get a 100,000 protesters to peacefully march and strike until the soldiers are brought to justice.

  29. Seamus

    “Not necessarily. People may know who did it. But as you said it takes more than that to collect evidence for a trial.” It is not clear to me what you are saying. Do you mean they are afraid to give evidence?

  30. British soldiers murdered 149 civilians over the course of the Troubles. How many of them were convicted?

    And currently the British Government are attempting to pass an amnesty for British soldiers who murdered people in Northern Ireland.

  31. ” It is not clear to me what you are saying. Do you mean they are afraid to give evidence?”

    No. They may not have that evidence. They may have a general idea (the dogs in the street type stuff) of who did it. But may not possess actual evidence that Person A did it.

  32. “If they are peaceful protesters shot without provocation then you get a 100,000 protesters to peacefully march and strike until the soldiers are brought to justice.”

    And if we can’t get 100,000 people? Why should we sit there and take it when a foreign occupying army murders us in cold blood? Why shouldn’t we fight back?

  33. If you can’t get a 100,000 people than you may want ask why not such as do you really have support for your position. And you shouldn’t fight back because you are not an occupied country you are a long conquered nation and violence hurts your cause it doesn’t help.

    Peaceful political opposition is how you win.

  34. “If you can’t get a 100,000 people than you may want ask why not such as do you really have support for your position. And you shouldn’t fight back because you are not an occupied country you are a long conquered nation and violence hurts your cause it doesn’t help.”

    We are an occupied country. Just because the occupation began a long time ago doesn’t change that.

    And violence got the Brits to the table. It got them to the table in 1921, it got them to the table in 1972, it got them to the table in 1998. What did peaceful opposition do?

  35. Seamus

    “British soldiers murdered 149 civilians over the course of the Troubles. How many of them were convicted?” I think a few soldiers have been convicted. Not all 149 were considered murder legally. I know about the attempt to pass an amnesty, but it has not passed and it is doubtful it will pass.

    “No. They may not have that evidence. They may have a general idea (the dogs in the street type stuff) of who did it. But may not possess actual evidence that Person A did it.” I don’t believe these guys were living in the area and nobody saw anything or heard something. They were living in a community, people come and go, people congregate for meetings, things are carried from cars to homes and from homes to other cars, conversations are overheard in grocery stores and pubs, etc. It smells like a cover-up.

  36. Seamus

    “it got them to the table in 1998.” They were at the table for a surrender that they were too smart to call a surrender. The Brits had fully infiltrated the IRA, the leadership did not know who would turn out next to be a Brit agent. The Brits also outgunned the IRA because they had better technology.

    The “occupation” is in your head. You just had local elections, did you vote for occupiers?

  37. “I think a few soldiers have been convicted.”

    4. Ian Thain, Mark Wright, James Fisher and Lee Clegg. There are so few of them that you can actually name all of them.

    “Not all 149 were considered murder legally.”

    Sure. But the majority certainly would be. If not murder then certainly manslaughter. Certainly more than 4.

    ” I know about the attempt to pass an amnesty, but it has not passed and it is doubtful it will pass.”

    It has wide spread support in the Tory Party. And two of the biggest cheerleaders for it have both publicly backed Boris Johnson for the Tory leadership. I imagine they wouldn’t have done so without a commitment from Johnson on backing it.

    “I don’t believe these guys were living in the area and nobody saw anything or heard something. They were living in a community, people come and go, people congregate for meetings, things are carried from cars to homes and from homes to other cars, conversations are overheard in grocery stores and pubs, etc. It smells like a cover-up.”

    Possibly some people saw stuff. Maybe the people who saw it don’t oppose them. Maybe the people who saw it don’t understand the significance of what they saw. And yes there is the potential that individuals aren’t coming forward due to fear of reprisals.

  38. “The “occupation” is in your head. You just had local elections, did you vote for occupiers?”

    Before the armed campaign a person like me wouldn’t have had a vote in the local elections. There were engineered that way. The armed campaign changed that.

    “They were at the table for a surrender that they were too smart to call a surrender.”

    So why did they leave the table in 1996? What changed between 1996 and 1998 that drove the IRA to surrender?

  39. What Seimi participated in above is how it should be done

    Absolutely, yes. What should be done when peaceful marchers get beaten off the streets by the state?

  40. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/attack-on-burntollet-march-in-derry-occurred-50-years-ago-today-1.3746978

    The police there violently attacked the most peaceful of demonstrators, and/or were in league with violent criminal mobs who attacked protesters who had modeled their protests after Gandhi and Martin Luther King. That’s what the record shows. Does anyone dispute any of that?

    Fifty years ago today, Michael Farrell stood on Burntollet Bridge, Co Derry, surrounded by civil rights marchers, many of them injured and bleeding. Less than an hour before, he had stood at the head of a peaceful march.

    Now a policeman told him urgently: “You’d better get out of here immediately or they’ll kill you.”

    The march had been organised by the People’s Democracy movement, inspired by the Selma to Montgomery marches in the United States led by Martin Luther King.

    Forty people, many Queen’s University Belfast students and graduates, had left Belfast for Derry on New Year’s Day. Their numbers grew as they marched, harassed by loyalists and rerouted by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC).

    On January 4th they were ambushed at Burntollet, near Derry. “There was a police jeep in front of us, and a group of 5 or 6 RUC men who stopped the jeep and took out shields and helmets and put them on, and that’s when I realised something more serious was happening,” remembers Farrell.

    Stones began raining down. Up to 300 loyalists swarmed on to the narrow country road. “I saw clubs, but other people saw clubs with nails through them, and iron bars.

    Open to attack
    “The police moved back from the side of the road, leaving the march open to attack,” says marcher Vinny McCormack. “It was almost like a military operation, and that’s what startled us. The rocks came first of all, and then the attackers.”

    Soon, they were being attacked with batons. Many of the attackers wore the white armbands used by the auxiliary police force, the B-Specials.

    “I saw several police vehicles there with police sitting in them. And there was a crowd of guys with white armbands on, with their clubs, smoking, and having a rest and some of them were chatting to the police.

    Farrell was shocked. “There had been a very brutal attack, and here the police were just sitting fraternising with the attackers.”

  41. Seamus

    Now you admit the courts do punish them but above seemed to deny it.

    I do not doubt Boris supports an amnesty. But, look at the state of the Tory party. Ultimately I doubt there would be enough votes to pass an amnesty.

    Voting in local elections was not due to an armed campaign, but to legislation while the troubles were in progress. Non-violent politicians got the necessary legislation passed, not gunslingers.

  42. Fine respond with violence……. like I said on a thread the other day. In my city they had a pack of “freedom fighters” the city dropped a bomb on them, burned 65 houses and 11 people alive including 5 children. Now no one from that group is violent anymore…….

    Different cultures I guess.

  43. Somebody has had to have seen or heard something suspicious

    Presumably that’s why 160 people have come forward with information. How do you denigrate a whole community one the basis that ‘somebody’ refuses to say what they saw or heard?

  44. The city dropped a bomb on them, burned 65 houses and 11 people alive including 5 children. Now no one from that group is violent anymore…….

    Not really relevant to the state battering peaceful marchers off the streets though is it?

  45. Now you admit the courts do punish them but above seemed to deny it

    Well, if you consider four soldiers being convicted of murder in the context of 149 civilians being killed by the British Army, those soldiers being sentenced to life sentences, none serving more than five years of that life sentence and then being reinstated into the British Army upon release then yeah, they were punished.

  46. “Now you admit the courts do punish them but above seemed to deny it.”

    4 people in the most egregious cases is not adequately punishing the 149 murders carried out by the British Army.

    “Voting in local elections was not due to an armed campaign, but to legislation while the troubles were in progress. Non-violent politicians got the necessary legislation passed, not gunslingers.”

    Politicians only passed the legislation because of the Troubles. In the absence of the Troubles that legislation never gets passed.

  47. “Fine respond with violence……. like I said on a thread the other day. In my city they had a pack of “freedom fighters” the city dropped a bomb on them, burned 65 houses and 11 people alive including 5 children. Now no one from that group is violent anymore…….”

    Did those people have legitimate cause for violence?

  48. according to them they did……

    Not really relevant to the state battering peaceful marchers off the streets though is it?

    very relevant….. when you decide to deal with what you view as injustice with violence you get handled with violence.

    Even if you feel oppressed and occupied you don’t get to respond with violence.

    There are many times when the actions of cops and or troops is not proper or justified. That being said it does not give you the right to act violent or engage in a campaign of targeted violence of your own.

    You see here when that happens the response is not to give into your demands, just the opposite. The force used is then multiplied and multiplied until the violence ends or everyone is locked up or dead.

  49. “according to them they did……”

    And according to other people?

  50. “Even if you feel oppressed and occupied you don’t get to respond with violence.”

    Your natural impulse to any international incident is to call for a violent response. You don’t get to lecture anyone else on violence.

  51. oh bull I only call for violence when violence is either used or threatened.

  52. Very relevant….. when you decide to deal with what you view as injustice with violence you get handled with violence

    Not in the least bit relevant. The NICRA were an absolutely peaceful campaign which were brutally battered off the streets by the state. You seem to be converging the NICRA with the violence of the IRA in order to justify or at least excuse state violence and oPpression.

    Tell me, what would you have done?

  53. I only call for violence when violence is either used or threatened

    Like the violence used against the NICRA campaigners you mean?

  54. “according to them they did……”

    And according to other people?

    Yeah a good amount. But they both threatened and used violence so they were dealt with accordingly.

    You know I get this rap that I promote violence…. that is nonsense. I have always said violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence.

    Then you use overwhelming violence to deter others from pursuing that course.

  55. “You know I get this rap that I promote violence…. that is nonsense. I have always said violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence.”

    And the British Army attacked the Irish people in the North. Why should the Irish people not be allowed to use violence to respond?

    “oh bull I only call for violence when violence is either used or threatened.”

    You have called for preemptive violence on a number of occasions, including recently with Iran.

  56. I have always said violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence

    The NICRA were an absolutely peaceful campaign which were brutally battered off the streets by the state.

    So?

  57. Also Patrick, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t your country founded by violence opposition? Were Washington, Jefferson and Adams all wrong? Should the colonies instead have relied on peaceful protest?

  58. Burntollet bridge was a disgrace….. the response from both sides was wrong.

  59. “Burntollet bridge was a disgrace….. the response from both sides was wrong.”

    You just said that violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence. So why was the violent response to violence wrong?

  60. I have always said violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence

    The NICRA were an absolutely peaceful campaign which were brutally battered off the streets by the state.

    By your own admission the brutal repression of the NICRA justified a violent response?

  61. You have called for preemptive violence on a number of occasions, including recently with Iran.

    In response to their regular threat of death to america…..

    Also Patrick, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t your country founded by violence opposition? Were Washington, Jefferson and Adams all wrong? Should the colonies instead have relied on peaceful protest?

    Notice you know the names of not just our leaders, but everyone involved and they didn’t go on a terror campaign they DECLARED WAR and did so as a nation forming an army not a pack of animals hiding in the shadows… and we won our independence…. did you?

  62. “Notice you know the names of not just our leaders, but everyone involved and they didn’t go on a terror campaign they DECLARED WAR and did so as a nation forming an army not a pack of animals hiding in the shadows… and we won our independence…. did you?”

    But you said that violence to achieve change is wrong. So why was it right for them?

  63. You just said that violence should only be used either against the threat of violence or in response to violence. So why was the violent response to violence wrong?

    Because you did it as a small splinter group and not a nationally agreed to move to war…..

  64. “In response to their regular threat of death to america…..”

    So Iran engage in juvenile chants and it is grounds for violence, but the RUC, the B-Men and the British Army can murder at will in Ireland and it is not grounds for violence?

  65. By your own admission the brutal repression of the NICRA justified a violent response?

    Yes?

  66. “Because you did it as a small splinter group and not a nationally agreed to move to war…..”

    So? Violence is violence. If violence is acceptable in response to violence then why is it only nations that get to do it?

  67. I am catholic, I am Irish catholic. I believe the Irish Catholics were being abused.

    The way you handled it was then and is now an embarrassment to all Irish Catholics.

  68. “The way you handled it was then and is now an embarrassment to all Irish Catholics.”

    Nonsense. You fight when you want to. You are the most pro-violence person on this site. You find excuses for terrorists that you support. The actions of the IRA in the early years was a legitimate and proportionate response to the actions of the Orange state.

  69. So? Violence is violence. If violence is acceptable in response to violence then why is it only nations that get to do it?

    because those are the rules of a civilised world.

  70. You find excuses for terrorists that you support.

    What terrorists do I support?

  71. By your own admission the brutal repression of the NICRA justified a violent response?

    Yes?

    Pat?

  72. “What terrorists do I support?”

    Irgun. The Haganah.

  73. Seamus

    “4 people in the most egregious cases is not adequately punishing the 149 murders carried out by the British Army.” How many of the remaining 145 were legally murder? If a guy points a gun at a soldier, it is not murder.

    “Politicians only passed the legislation because of the Troubles. In the absence of the Troubles that legislation never gets passed.” As I said above, the legislation got passed because of non-violent politicians. Those politicians were totally against the violent faction. The armed campaign retarded rather than advanced the achievement of rights and justice. Do you think all legislation is passed out of the barrel of a gun? Some people believe in non-violence and get political things accomplished for the good of all.

    The “occupation” is all in your head sums up your views on NI. Until you clear your head, it is hard to take you seriously.

  74. The actions of the IRA in the early years was a legitimate and proportionate response to the actions of the Orange state.

    The IRA are TERRORISTS nothing they did was legitimate. Everything they did was the act of animals.

  75. “because those are the rules of a civilised world.”

    No they aren’t. The civilised world has no issue with the French and Polish resistance, despite both countries having surrendered. They were non-nation states engaging in warfare. The civilised world gives people the right to defend themselves, violently if needs be. Your option removes any ability for the people to defend themselves. That isn’t civilised. It’s barbaric.

  76. I posted this piece for Seimi because I thought it was beautiful, a true event of progress and hope for the future, but you’ve turned it into a cheerleading rant of violence…..

    You ought to be ashamed.

  77. “The IRA are TERRORISTS nothing they did was legitimate. Everything they did was the act of animals.”

    Irgun were terrorists. You seem to have no problem with them.

    As were Washington, Adams, Jefferson. They were terrorists.

    “How many of the remaining 145 were legally murder? If a guy points a gun at a soldier, it is not murder.”

    Do you have difficulty in understanding the word “civilian”. A civilian didn’t have a gun.

    “As I said above, the legislation got passed because of non-violent politicians. Those politicians were totally against the violent faction. The armed campaign retarded rather than advanced the achievement of rights and justice. Do you think all legislation is passed out of the barrel of a gun? Some people believe in non-violence and get political things accomplished for the good of all.”

    Nonsense. In 1969 the Irish people in the North didn’t have those rights. Many were granted by the mid 70s. It wasn’t peaceful politicians who forced those changes.

  78. By your own admission the brutal repression of the NICRA justified a violent response?

    Yes?

    Pat?

    That’s the tird time. Are you going to answer?

  79. “I posted this piece for Seimi because I thought it was beautiful, a true event of progress and hope for the future, but you’ve turned it into a cheerleading rant of violence…..

    You ought to be ashamed.”

    As opposed to half the threads you comment on which you turn into cheerleading rants of violence? As I said you are the most pro-violence person here.

  80. You can’t compare yourselves to the French, or the Pols or the Jews…… sorry Irelands case was not the same.

  81. “You can’t compare yourselves to the French, or the Pols or the Jews…… sorry Irelands case was not the same.”

    Why?

    Terrorism is terrorism. Non-state violence is non-state violence.

    As I said you make excuses for the terrorists you support and condemn those you don’t. There is no principle behind it.

  82. I have never called for violence as a tool of politics.

    Sorry you’re wrong.

  83. “I have never called for violence as a tool of politics.”

    Washington, Adams, Jefferson. Kill a shit load of people because you don’t want to pay tax.

    You’ve also said that Americans should engage in terrorism if the government tries to take their guns off them.

    And you regularly call for violence as a tool of politics. Your calls for violence against Iran are more about America’s domestic politics than it is about any international concerns.

  84. As I said you make excuses for the terrorists you support and condemn those you don’t. There is no principle behind it.

    wrong my principals are very clear and agreed to by most of the world except those in NI.

  85. “wrong my principals are very clear and agreed to by most of the world except those in NI.”

    You support the American terrorists (and have called for repeats of it if they take your guns). You support the Israeli terrorists. You support non-state actors in the French and Polish resistance.

    You support terrorists when it suits you. There is no principle in your opposition to this group of terrorists while you support others.

  86. How many of the remaining 145 were legally murder? If a guy points a gun at a soldier, it is not murder

    NY’er. The Sutton Index is widley regarded as the most comprehensive work ever done on the deaths in the conflict in the state of NI. It lists 149 deths by the British Army as civillian. I’m pretty sure that if they pointin a gun at a soldier that wouldn’t be the case?

    This for example was certainly murder?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare

    As was this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidan_McAnespie

    Etc etc.

  87. Seamus

    “The actions of the IRA in the early years was a legitimate and proportionate response to the actions of the Orange state.” I thought the war was against the Brits, now it was just against the Orange state? According to just war theory proportion is one element, but another element is reasonability of success, and that element was never met in the troubles. The Irish had no chance of success up against the Brits as was proved when they were forced to dump their arms as happens to vanquished rebels.

  88. That’s the third time. Are you going to answer?

    That’ll be a no then. Credibility in tatters.

  89. ” I thought the war was against the Brits, now it was just against the Orange state? According to just war theory proportion is one element, but another element is reasonability of success, and that element was never met in the troubles. “

    The war was against the Orange state. The British then intervened on the side of the Orange state.

    And in terms of the reasonability of success the Orange state no longer exists. So not only was there a reasonable chance of success – there was actual success.

  90. You’ve also said that Americans should engage in terrorism if the government tries to take their guns off them.

    No I have said We the People will declare War on our Government and we won’t do it from behind a ski mask. We will sign our names to a public declaration and then we will fight.

    They will know exactly who they are fighting because it will be a civil war.

  91. “No I have said We the People will declare War on our Government and we won’t do it from behind a ski mask. We will sign our names to a public declaration and then we will fight.”

    Terrorism is terrorism, balaclava or not.

  92. Public declaration of War with all of our names and an army of 100 million heavily armed people is not terrorism.

    Once again you don’t understand my country, worse than I don’t understand yours.

  93. “Public declaration of War with all of our names and an army of 100 million heavily armed people is not terrorism.”

    Yes it is. Are they a nation state? No. Then it is terrorism. You can dress it up whatever way you want. It will be terrorism.

    And like other terrorism you will find a way to justify it because you support terrorism in that situation. So your objection to terrorism is unprincipled because you do not condemn all terrorism.

  94. Seamus

    “The war was against the Orange state.” The people actually fighting the war said it was against the Brits. They surrendered to the Brits. You are attempting to confuse, but not successfully.

  95. “They surrendered to the Brits.”

    Where?

    ” The people actually fighting the war said it was against the Brits.”

    Because the Brits joined the side of the Orange state. It wasn’t until 1971 that the IRA Army Council sanctioned actions against the British Army.

  96. Paul McMahon

    “NY’er. The Sutton Index is widley regarded as the most comprehensive work ever done on the deaths in the conflict in the state of NI. It lists 149 deths by the British Army as civillian. I’m pretty sure that if they pointin a gun at a soldier that wouldn’t be the case?” One would have to go entry by entry through Sutton/CAIN to know the answer about the 145 civilians we not know if they were legally murdered by the Brits. I am not going to do that research, nor will I give an opinion on it.

  97. “I am not going to do that research, nor will I give an opinion on it.”

    You already have with your sly suggestion that some of them were holding guns.

  98. Seamus

    “Where?” Wherever they were forced to dump their arms.

    “It wasn’t until 1971 that the IRA Army Council sanctioned actions against the British Army.” When did the Brits come to NI? When was the IRA Army Council founded?

  99. One wouldn’t NY’er:

    Status Summary British Security
    Civilian 186

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

  100. “Wherever they were forced to dump their arms.”

    They weren’t forced to dump arms. They agreed to dump arms.

    “When did the Brits come to NI? When was the IRA Army Council founded?”

    1969

  101. Seamus have you ever read anything I’ve written calling for violence against my government…. no

    If they decided to try to disarm us it would be civil war. States would succeed and an army would be formed along with a voted for government to lead it.

    My government as whole is not stupid enough to try and disarm us, they know it would be civil war and they can’t use tanks and planes or the army since the majority of the military are from the families they would be fighting.

    There are over 300 million legally owned guns and 200 illegally owned guns in my country even if they tried to use the military against the people it wouldn’t work.

  102. “Seamus have you ever read anything I’ve written calling for violence against my government…. no”

    You have argued that there should be violence if they try to remove your guns. That would be terrorism.

    “If they decided to try to disarm us it would be civil war. States would succeed and an army would be formed along with a voted for government to lead it.”

    Which would be illegal and unconstitutional. The new state also wouldn’t be recognised in international law. As such it would be a non-state actor engaging in violence against the state. That is terrorism.

  103. Public declaration of War with all of our names and an army of 100 million heavily armed people is not terrorism.

    Highly confused thinking

    A few thousand shabby intellect Cliven Bundy and Timothy McVeigh types is far more like it.

  104. Are all the various militia members on a register and if not if there was to be a violent uprising against the US Government would they all magically register?

    Absolute rubbish. Pat is a rabid war dog who justifies violence when it suits his narrative.

  105. The State I live in Pennsylvania is the number one state in the sale of Firearms and has been since records have been kept. We are a state that is 50/50 democrat and republican. Half Liberal half Conservative and the majority of both own guns.

    But it’s a stupid premise you put forth.

    Right now we just had one party try to commit a coupe against duly elected President. People committed Treason and tried to frame Trump for treason….. over 60 million people are very upset… yet no one is calling for violence.

    We are calling for the equal enforcement of the Law.

  106. Paul McMahon

    “One wouldn’t NY’er:” The stats do not give the circumstances of each death which one would need to know to evaluate if it was legally murder or not. It would be a sizable research project.

  107. “But it’s a stupid premise you put forth.”

    Its not. It is an illustration of your willingness to excuse terrorism when you find reason to excuse it. Thus removing any principle from your more general anti-terrorism stance. You dislike the IRA not because they are terrorists but because you dislike the IRA.

  108. Seamus

    “They weren’t forced to dump arms. They agreed to dump arms.” They were told to dump arms or no deal. It is called forced. Why would they do so unless they were giving up?

    1969 – Is that the year the Brits came to NI or when the IRA Army council was formed, or both?

  109. ” The stats do not give the circumstances of each death which one would need to know to evaluate if it was legally murder or not. It would be a sizable research project.”

    The Army killed a civilian. The most reasonable suggestion, especially given the Army’s conduct in Northern Ireland, would be to assume it is murder unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

  110. “They were told to dump arms or no deal.”

    Actually they weren’t. Decommission was agreed as part of a later deal.

    “It is called forced. Why would they do so unless they were giving up?”

    Because it was an agreed peace deal. The full dismantling of the Orange state. The release of volunteers from prison. In exchange an end to the armed campaign, in full (which included putting arms beyond use).

    “1969 – Is that the year the Brits came to NI or when the IRA Army council was formed, or both?”

    Both.

  111. NY’er:

    The Sutton Index is widley regarded as the most comprehensive work ever done on the deaths in the conflict in the state of NI. It lists 149 deths by the British Army as civillian. I’m pretty sure that if they pointin a gun at a soldier that wouldn’t be the case?

    Sutton is the most credible, respected comprehensive academic work ever done on conflict deaths. ach and every death was individually researched, (I know because I’ve got the weighty tome hard copy). Sutton online lists the civillian victims of the ‘security services’ after individually researching them:

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html

    Don’t like the figures? Disprove them

  112. Like I said we wouldn’t don ski masks we would declare our intentions and we would get and have the support of the majority of Americans. An official government and army would be formed against the government trying to end our god given rights.

    My countries history shows that we did it right. The result we are free of British rule… you are not.

    You people did it wrong, the right way is Seimi’s post above, Hard Talk.

  113. There are a number of states with higher gun ownership rates than Pennsylvania including neighboring West Virginia.

    http://demographicdata.org/facts-and-figures/gun-ownership-statistics/

  114. “Like I said we wouldn’t don ski masks we would declare our intentions and we would get and have the support of the majority of Americans. An official government and army would be formed against the government trying to end our god given rights.”

    Terrorism. Which you support when you want to.

    “My countries history shows that we did it right. The result we are free of British rule… you are not.

    You people did it wrong, the right way is Seimi’s post above, Hard Talk.”

    Those are two mutually contradictory statements. Your country didn’t do what Seimi did. It did the opposite. It engaged in a violent campaign to avoid paying tax.

  115. Seamus

    People dislike the IRA because they do/did bad things. Maybe you do not understand that, but that is the reason most people despise them. And, bad people are the ones that do bad things, that is why people want nothing to do with IRA individuals or their supporters.

    The IRA put Ireland through hell for over thirty years and surrendered. In other countries the local people would hang them from the lampposts.

  116. “People dislike the IRA because they do/did bad things. Maybe you do not understand that, but that is the reason most people despise them. And, bad people are the ones that do bad things, that is why people want nothing to do with IRA individuals or their supporters.”

    As did the British Army. As do most armies.

    “The IRA put Ireland through hell for over thirty years and surrendered.”

    Where did they surrender?

  117. Like I said we wouldn’t don ski masks we would declare our intentions and we would get and have the support of the majority of Americans

    You didn’t say that. You said there’d be a public declaration of war and every person would put there names to a list:

    We will sign our names to a public declaration and then we will fight

    Public declaration of War with all of our names

    So,

    Are all the various militia members on a register and if not if there was to be a violent uprising against the US Government would they all magically register?

  118. Paul McMahon

    I’m familiar with Sutton/CAIN. Read what I said above about the necessary research needed to determine the circumstances of each death. I’m not disputing the stats, but to know death was legally murder or not, you have to go entry by entry. Why do you find that difficult to understand? Look at your copy, does it give you a total of how many were legally murder?

  119. What circumstances would make it not legally murder (or manslaughter)?

  120. Seamus

    The IRA was/is not an army in the category of the British Army or US Army. It was/is a terrorist organization for the self-enrichment of a few. In a real army there is discipline and rules to be followed that are enforced.

    The IRA surrendered when they were forced to dump their arms. Why else would an ‘army’ dump its arms?

  121. Those are two mutually contradictory statements. Your country didn’t do what Seimi did. It did the opposite. It engaged in a violent campaign to avoid paying tax.

    It declared it’s independence formed a government of the people and a real army. We won. In 1812 the brits tried again and lost again at the hands of army supported by our government and people once again. Both times the proper way not through terrorism.

    Your country lost, and has lost continually for centuries, you are still subjects of the crown.

    To move the ball forward ALL your violent tendencies need to cease. History has proven it does not work.

    What Seimi describes above is now the course you have for your children’s future. Hard talk, and at the most national nonviolent strikes, or is that just beyond you people’s ability?

  122. I’m familiar with Sutton/CAIN

    Good then you’ll no that each death was vigoursly researched and that ‘a man pointing a gun at a soldier’ isn’t classed as a civillian?

    Does it give you a total of how many were legally murder?

    No it doesn’t as it doesn’t go into the legalities of the case but lists the status of the victin, a synopsis of the circumstances and the organisation they were killed by. Do you agree that the examples I give above were murder?

  123. “It declared it’s independence formed a government of the people and a real army. We won. In 1812 the brits tried again and lost again at the hands of army supported by our government and people once again. Both times the proper way not through terrorism.”

    Make up your mind. Is the proper way what Seimi was doing or is the proper way violence?

  124. *you’ll know that each death was vigoursly researched

  125. Make up your mind. Is the proper way what Seimi was doing or is the proper way violence?

    You blew your chance to use violence properly, instead you CHOSE terror. Now the only way you can ever have legitimacy is by actions like Seimi’s above.

    You all need to redeem yourselves and prove you are westerners and not islamists.

  126. “You blew your chance to use violence properly, instead you CHOSE terror.”

    As did you. As did the Israelis. As did the French, the Poles and most other countries.

  127. You blew your chance to use violence properly

    It’s unacceptable no matter the circumstances to use violence

    No one should use violence

    Who said that? No contradiction there at all.

  128. you are blind

  129. now spit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9EBYw5VN2E

  130. On more than one thread, I posted this……..

    http://archive.is/i1OdU

    Half of Longford’s population will be of a mixed race by 2050, a public meeting has been told.
    Members of the public were informed of the way gardai and various state agencies were already planning to adapt to that changing demographic last week.

    Those ‘state agencies’ aren’t wasting time:

    http://irishsavant.blogspot.com/2019/05/longford-and-irelands-traitor-class.html

    Longford is a town in major economic decline, buried deep in the Bog Of Allen. Not good but this should have at least one upside: Safety from the joys of diversity. But if you thought that you’d be wrong. As this picture of the local primary school entitled Schoolchildren Of Rural Ireland illustrates.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YfUMy1yeFDI/XPE6aWcgj1I/AAAAAAAAG3A/A4HGJ_fipd00tJHg_ZmHQx_4dnW1x4s8gCLcBGAs/s1600/longford.jpg

    The excellent Gemma O’Doherty copied the image from the local rag The Longford Leader and posted it – without comment – on her blog. Given that the LL published it on their front page you’d imagine that they’d be proud of it. But no. When Gemma’s post went viral they lawyered up, threatened her with copyright infringement and insisted that she take it down.

    Clearly those Irish who are in charge of destroying native Irish are not messing around – and there are many Irish who support their own destruction.

  131. Paul McMahon

    “No it doesn’t as it doesn’t go into the legalities of the case but lists the status of the victin, a synopsis of the circumstances and the organisation they were killed by.” Then, by your own words, it is an invalid source to back-up what you are trying to prove.

    There is no doubt the killing of Majella O’Hare was murder amd justice was not done in her case.

  132. Then, by your own words, it is an invalid source to back-up what you are trying to prove.

    The only time mentioned murder was the cases of the four British soldiers convicted of murder. The only thing I have claimed is that the British Army killed civillians:

    The Sutton Index is widley regarded as the most comprehensive work ever done on the deaths in the conflict in the state of NI. It lists 149 deths by the British Army as civillian. I’m pretty sure that if they pointing a gun at a soldier that wouldn’t be the case?

    That’s what I was ‘trying to prove’. It was you who introduced the murder element. That’s for the courts to decide.

    The British ‘security services’ body count comprised of a minimum of 51.2% civilans. Somewhat reckless by anyone’s standards.

  133. Paul McMahon

    I said earlier: ““British soldiers murdered 149 civilians over the course of the Troubles. How many of them were convicted?” I think a few soldiers have been convicted. Not all 149 were considered murder legally. I know about the attempt to pass an amnesty, but it has not passed and it is doubtful it will pass.”. I quoted Seamus – “British soldiers murdered 149 civilians over the course of the Troubles.” That is the genesis of the conversation, if you followed it properly. Seamus, not I, introduced the issue of murdered civilians. But you did not follow it properly, as usual, you jumped in and started yakking without knowing what the conversation was about. Now, read the thread carefully so you can understand my response.

    Majella O’Hare’s murder and the four mentioned above totals five credible murders by the British army. Considering that over time there were tens of thousands of British soldiers in NI, that is a very low percentage – and especially when compared to the number of civilian murders committed by the IRA.

  134. Oh I’ve been following the conversation properly NY’er, my first comment on the issue of the point I was making regarding the BA shooting civilians was in response to your ‘a man pointing a gun at a soldier’ and classification of a civilian:

    NY’er. The Sutton Index is widley regarded as the most comprehensive work ever done on the deaths in the conflict in the state of NI. It lists 149 deths by the British Army as civillian. I’m pretty sure that if they pointing a gun at a soldier that wouldn’t be the case?

    Prior to that I’d only spoken about the soldiers punishment:

    Well, if you consider four soldiers being convicted of murder in the context of 149 civilians being killed by the British Army, those soldiers being sentenced to life sentences, none serving more than five years of that life sentence and then being reinstated into the British Army upon release then yeah, they were punished.

    The issue of murder is between Seamus and yourself so please don’t try to introduce as a straw man into our own discourse. My point is that the British ‘sercurity forces’ had an at least 51.2% civilian kill rate of the killings attributed to them. That’s at the very least an incredibley, incredibley reckless stat by any neutral observer’s estimation.

    Off the top of my head the killings of Aidan McAnespie, Majella O´Hare, John Boyle, Nora McCabe, Thomas McCartan, Henry Thornton etc as well as the fourteen on Bloody Sunday and, as I believe the current inquest will determine the eleven in Ballymurphy, were IMO murder but, as I stated previously, that’s for the courts to decide.

    Considering that over time there were tens of thousands of British soldiers in NI, that is a very low percentage

    What is an even lower percentage is that the British ‘security forces’ had at least a 51.2% kil ratio of civilians and of that 51% less 0.02% resulted in convictions for murder. Maybe that’s what Seamus was referring to when he spoke about the courts consistently refusing to punish them?

    You jumped in and started yakking without knowing what the conversation was about

    NY’er, when it comes to yakking there are few people do as much know nothing yakking on ATW as you.

  135. You’ve also said that Americans should engage in terrorism if the government tries to take their guns off them.

    As sure as night follows day:

    At least 12 people were killed and several injured on Friday in a mass shooting at a government building in the US state of Virginia

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48481814

  136. I’ve never said Americans should engage in terrorism even if they try to take our guns. If you come to my door and try and take them I will defend myself, but that’s not terrorism.

    Please provide a link where I said to engage in terrorism.

    as for the guy who went postal…… shit happens

  137. “If you come to my door and try and take them I will defend myself, but that’s not terrorism.”

    That is terrorism.

  138. no Seamus that’s the Bill of Rights.

  139. “no Seamus that’s the Bill of Rights.”

    Doesn’t matter if its in the Bill of Rights or not (and for what it is worth it isn’t). It would still be terrorism. A non-state actor engaging against violence against the state.

  140. I can say and pray whatever I want, I have the right to be secure in my home and I have the God Given right to defend that.

    These are the basic Laws of the US that no one can take…… welcome to America

  141. If a certain type of gun were made illegal, and the police came to remove the illegal object from the house, And the owner reacted by shooting and killing a police officer, The owner would be a murderer of the lowest order

    This could never be justified as any type of self-defense by any reasonable person

    Guns are not about to be made illegal in the US

    These are just a highly file and fantasies that have nothing to do with the self-defense of any person

  142. Highly violent

  143. “I can say and pray whatever I want, I have the right to be secure in my home and I have the God Given right to defend that.”

    Nope. You are describing terrorism.

    You recently put up a blog post attacking people who believe the sort of bollocks you’ve just spouted. In fact you referred to them as Sovtards – clearly indicating that you think the sort of statement that you just made makes one retarded.

  144. both of you…… wrong

  145. “both of you…… wrong”

    Just saying wrong isn’t an argument. It is devoid of argument (as you are).

  146. You recently put up a blog post attacking people who believe the sort of bollocks you’ve just spouted. In fact you referred to them as Sovtards – clearly indicating that you think the sort of statement that you just made makes one retarded.

    that post was about people who don’t think they have to follow the Law…. What I just sad IS THE LAW.

    and Phantom you can play all the what if games you want. Doesn’t change the Bill of Rights

  147. “that post was about people who don’t think they have to follow the Law…. What I just sad IS THE LAW.”

    No it isn’t. Where in the law does it say you can shoot officers of the peace because they come to enforce a law you don’t like?

  148. Seamus we have this thing it’s called the Bill of Rights…. read it sometime. That’s my argument.

  149. “Seamus we have this thing it’s called the Bill of Rights…. read it sometime. That’s my argument.”

    Where in the Bill of Rights does it say that you can shoot officers of the peace because they come to enforce a law you don’t like?

  150. No it isn’t. Where in the law does it say you can shoot officers of the peace because they come to enforce a law you don’t like?

    IF a Law like that existed……. it would start a civil war…. it’ll never happen.

    If the dog didn’t stop to crap he would’ve caught the rabbit….. heads of pins

  151. “IF a Law like that existed……. it would start a civil war…. it’ll never happen.”

    It wouldn’t. It would cause a number of Timothy McVeigh wannabes like yourself to engage in terrorism.

  152. try sticking to existing Laws I know it’s hard for you, but try

  153. “try sticking to existing Laws I know it’s hard for you, but try”

    So I take it you are backing down from your earlier statement that the law allows you to engage in domestic terrorism.

  154. Since I never talked about engaging in domestic terrorism it only goes to adding to how confused you are.

  155. “Since I never talked about engaging in domestic terrorism it only goes to adding to how confused you are.”

    You did. You talked about rising up and “defending” yourself when the came to get your guns. That’s domestic terrorism.

  156. If the evil liberal politicians outlawed certain guns ( say AR 15s ) , and the police after a time Came to seize the illegally held guns, who should the self proclaimed patriots shoot? The police? The liberal politicians? Their neighbors who voted for those politicians?

  157. Pat’s all over the place on this thread :

    It’s unacceptable no matter the circumstances to use violence

    No one should use violence

    And then speaks about ‘civil war’ ‘defence’ and ‘resistance’ were a democratically elected government to pass a law he dislikes.

    The fact of the matter if that Pat advocates and justifies violence when it fits his narrative or is used by those he agrees with.

  158. “ if I can’t keep stuff that gives me pleasure , despite the fact that it is illegal, I can shoot you “