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Cui bono?

By Phantom On June 14th, 2019

We’re told that two ships were ” attacked ” in the Gulf this week.

The US government says that Iran is responsible for the alleged attacks. Iran denies the charge.

The attacks supposedly involve ” limpet mines ” , devices that were attached to the side of the ship, devices that don’t go off right away. But the holes on the side of the Kokuka Courageous were above the water line. The mine supposedly removed by ” Iranians ” was also above the water line also. How did those mines get up there?

The ship owner doesn’t believe the US account.

Yutaka Katada, the company’s president, citing accounts from the ship’s crew, said Friday: “I do not think there was a time bomb or an object attached to the side of the ship.”. ( NYT ) They say that crew saw a flying object.

The incident makes little sense. As Daphne said, why would Iran attack a Japanese vessel at the time that the Japanese PM is paying a friendly visit to Tehran? It seems far more likely that the attack was aimed to harm any chance of the Japanese-Iranian talks ending in success.

We trust the military, but at this time no thinking person will automatically believe a delusional president’s who lies from sunrise to sunset.

Who would benefit by such an attack? Well, the Israelis, Saudis, and Emiratis, to name three. They could get the fun war that Bibi and the bone-saw loving Arab princes want, a war that would mostly bleed the US military.

Let’s have a close examination of those ships and of any tapes. And not only by the US either.

Verify, then trust.

186 Responses to “Cui bono?”

  1. Cui boo indeed Phantom. There are a lot of pretty unsavoury and pretty scary characters along that strategic stretch of water.

    I thought the story originally floated on ATW was that the boats were torpedoed? Cool heads and absolutely credible conclusion arrived at by fact are what’s needed here as the stakes are icredibley high.

  2. Damn the torpedoes!

    Rule nothing in. Rule nothing out.

    The pre-Trump Pete Moore would have expressed some skepticism by now. What happened to that guy?

  3. A limpet mine isn’t a water borne mine. It is a magnet attached to the side of a ship. So it could have been attached to the ship above the water line.

  4. Someone’s been at the Infowars again.

  5. How would it get there?

    Wouldn’t the crew notice someone attaching an object to their ship?

  6. “How would it get there?”

    Someone, a diver potentially, or a small ship, will swim along side.

    “Wouldn’t the crew notice someone attaching an object to their ship?”

    It would depend on how it was done I guess.

  7. The US has released footage that does appear to show a small white patrol craft approach one of the tankers.

  8. Yes.

    To remove a mine, it is said.

    Let’s see where the facts lead us.

    This does not compute.

  9. Saudi’s, perhaps ?

  10. I would absolutely suspect Bone Saw Bin Salman

  11. Most likely it is one of two sources. Iran or someone making it look like Iran.

  12. Oil price spiking is of no benefit to Iran. Others though…

  13. Oil price spiking is of no benefit to Iran. Others though…

  14. I really don’t see how such an attack benefits Iran.

  15. It would seem to very clearly -harm- Iran.

    I don’t see them looking for a war against the US, etc.

  16. It doesn’t benefit Iran, and, as Phantom says, would actually appear to cause more difficulties for Iran. It is why caution needs to be key in this case. Why would Iran, rationally speaking, do it? And the answer is they wouldn’t. The flaw in the argument however is that it assumes that Iran will always act in a rational manner.

    In a 100% rational world there isn’t a chance that this is Iran. But no country, never mind a theocracy, is 100% rational.

  17. There could be different hard line factions in the Iranian military etc.

  18. I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least some people in the Iranian government who see benefits in fighting the Great Satan.

  19. IMO the Saudis or Israelis are at least equal suspects.

  20. A war with Iran in the next month gives the greatest benefit to Netanyahu. His inability to form a coalition in Israel means for the first time ever Israel will have two elections in a single year. A war with Iran plays into his message.

  21. Blimey, everyone’s on the Infowars.

    Alex Jones wins.

  22. Cui bono? Ah, seriously Phantom.

    The facts are still not ascertained. My issue is with your reasoning. Often people and nations do stupid things. Cui bono means nothing.

  23. No one ever said there weren’t things like false flags/

    The ( correct ) criticism is of guys like the Sage of Aberdeen who think that everything including the Boston Massacre and the Battle of Gettysburg is a conspiracy.

  24. MourneReg

    It is a train of thought that I think every detective spy or spy catcher would employ.

    It’s really really hard to think of the Iranian government wanting for this to happen.

  25. Paul McMahon, on June 14th, 2019 at 7:52 PM Said:
    I really don’t see how such an attack benefits Iran.

    Simple you make it look like a false flag operation. To get the rest of the world to pressure the U.S. to lift Sanctions which are crippling them. Attacking a Japanese ship when Abe is there makes it a perfect op.

    Also I do want to add that for an American to write this piece is a F*ing disgrace.

  26. “Also I do want to add that for an American to write this piece is a F*ing disgrace.”

    Because the government said Iran did it and like good little slaves you nod and agree?

  27. Why would a false flag op by a yet unidentified party against a Japanese ship lead to an easing of sanctions against Iran?

    That’s a bit of a stretch.

    Let’s never question what Trump said. I told you that these guys are a cult.

  28. Simple you make it look like a false flag operation. To get the rest of the world to pressure the U.S. to lift Sanctions which are crippling them.

    I think that’s a fairly ridiculous proposition Pat and feel the most likely outcome of such an action would be, at the very very least, strengthening of sanctions.

    I’m sure you’d agree that the speculation that Israel or the Saudis were responsible is at least equally plausible?

  29. Does Bibi have an alibi?

  30. No it’s not. Iran is suffering bad from the sanction and with the secondary sanctions we just added we cut off the bypass the french and brits put in place.

    Doing it against Jap freighters while the japs are there is perfect.

    This gives the Iranians leverage, your an American and you’re blaming the US or anyone but Iran. You are not alone voices all over the world are saying if we weren’t pressuring this wouldn’t have happened.

    Seamus it’s not a matter of being a good little slave. I’m an American I stand for and with my country. The country that has done more good for the World than any country in history.

    We are far from perfect, but we are the force for good in this world whether you or anyone else doesn’t believe that I say you are wrong, and while the rest of you sit under our protective shield you ought to remember that or step up and start building your EU army…

    My question is will the ROI provide troops and ships for it?

  31. The country that has done more good for the World than any country in history.

    No higher than second, old chap.

  32. Voices all over the world are saying if we weren’t pressuring this wouldn’t have happened.

    Who are saying that and where are they in the world?

    While the rest of you sit under our protective shield

    Who are you protecting us against and if it’s you doing the protecting why were so many Europeans killed in American wars in Afghanistan & Iraq?

    My question is will the ROI provide troops and ships for it?

    Probably not. If there is ever a Euro Army my guess is it won’t have a treaty structure with various nations contributing but will be a European Army open to membership of the various nationalties within the EU.

  33. Occam’s razor says that Iran is sending a message to the Great Satan. If you strangle our economy there will be consequences.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

  34. It could very well have been done by hardliners in the Iranian government to neuter the centrists.

    The point is, no one knows who’s to blame at the moment. A thorough, calm investigation is the most rational course of action at this point.

    I’m pretty sure most americans aren’t chomping at the bit for war with Iran. You think Trump’s polling numbers look bad now, they’ll tank to the bottom if he pushes for war on this particular issue.

  35. The markets didn’t even over react, to my surprise.

  36. “Seamus it’s not a matter of being a good little slave. I’m an American I stand for and with my country. The country that has done more good for the World than any country in history.”

    You regularly attack American intelligence agencies. You regularly attacked American foreign policy under Obama.

  37. The biggest question is what strategic value is derived from mining a ship above the water line?

    It’s a bit like booting a car with no tires

  38. I have never attacked American intelligence agencies.

    You regularly attacked American foreign policy under Obama.

    your damn straight because he was an idiot.

    and if Trump starts acting like an idiot I’ll criticize him.

    The only real foreign policy President we have had since FDR was Nixon. Those are the only two Presidents in the last 100 years that had any Foreign Policy, every other President has been nothing but reactionary….. controlled and dictated to by events. FDR and Nixon had actual working plans that they had to put in place and execute.

  39. You think Trump’s polling numbers look bad now,

    Trumps number is above 51% today and he has beaten the last 3 presidents in where they were polling at 2 1/2 years into their administration.

  40. “I have never attacked American intelligence agencies.”

    So I guess you’ve never done any of that deep state stuff?

    “your damn straight because he was an idiot.

    and if Trump starts acting like an idiot I’ll criticize him.”

    So you are allowed to attack Obama’s foreign policy without being un-American but Phantom can’t attack Trump’s?

  41. Occam’s razor

    I tip my hat to you Noel….. one of my favorite rules.

  42. So you are allowed to attack Obama’s foreign policy without being un-American but Phantom can’t attack Trump’s?

    Phantom isn’t attacking Trumps Foreign Policy he’s accusing the United States of blowing up an Allies ship to start a War…. he’s an ass

  43. “Trumps number is above 51% today and he has beaten the last 3 presidents in where they were polling at 2 1/2 years into their administration.”

    Rasumussen has an inbuilt Republican bias. Which is why their numbers need to be seen in context. Nate Silver has a tracker where he factors in the bias in the numbers.

    So Rasumussen has Trump on 51%. Silver ranks that at 45%. YouGov has him on 43%. Silver ranks that at 44%. Averaging out the data to account for the bias in the pollsters.

    It puts Trump overall approval rating at 42.4%. For comparison Obama was at 47.7% at this stage, Bush at 62.4% at this stage, and Clinton at 46.4%.

    In fact the last President who had lower approval numbers at this stage of their presidency than Trump does now is Jimmy Carter.

  44. “Phantom isn’t attacking Trumps Foreign Policy he’s accusing the United States of blowing up an Allies ship to start a War…. he’s an ass”

    You regularly accused Obama of doing underhand stuff, especially when it came to Iran.

  45. he’s accusing the United States of blowing up an Allies ship

    No ” he ” isn’t. You very often add one and one and arrive at 144.

    Please consider attending one of these classes.

    https://never2late2read.org/

  46. Deep State…. the deep state does exist Seamus, but not as it is portrayed by the lunatic fringe.

    Yes Donald Trump was attacked by the Federal Government but it was a conspiracy at the top not a mega cabal of a secret society inside the government just a pack of ideological idiots that gamboled they wouldn’t caught….. but they did.

    No the real Deep State that works for it’s own interest and does so no matter who is president or what party controls the government is the massive Federal Employees Union.

    I’d fire half of the government workers and make the Union Illegal.

  47. Phantom dance around it all you want you are accusing your country of this act of terror.

  48. “I’d fire half of the government workers and make the Union Illegal.”

    First Amendment might have some issues with that.

  49. I rule nothing in, I rule nothing out.

    Anyone who does otherwise has zero interest in the truth.

    We know that there were explosions and fires on ships. And that is all that we know.

  50. nope……

    When Ed Rendell became Mayor of Philadelphia the first thing he did was fire half the people that worked for Philadelphia Traffic Division, Traffic Court, and the Parking Authority.

    and over 90% were the Republicans that worked for the city.

  51. Phantom.

    I totally agree. At this time we can’t really say who attacked these vessels.

  52. “When Ed Rendell became Mayor of Philadelphia the first thing he did was fire half the people that worked for Philadelphia Traffic Division, Traffic Court, and the Parking Authority.”

    More the union illegal bit. Firing workers is possible. Banning unions not so much.

  53. Federal workers were originally barred from forming a Union. It would be very easy to put that ban back in place.

  54. They’d fight it.

    So it wouldn’t be easy.

  55. Washington (CNN)In the hours before the attack on the two tankers in the Gulf of Oman on Thursday, the Iranians spotted a US drone flying overhead and launched a surface-to-air missile at the unmanned aircraft, a US official told CNN.

    The missile missed the drone and fell into the water, the official said.
    Prior to taking fire, the American MQ-9 drone observed Iranian vessels closing in on the tankers, the official added, though the source did not say whether the unmanned aircraft saw the boats conducting an actual attack.

  56. The Federal Workers Union is toothless b/c it can’t strike. All they can do is bury a supervisor in paperwork over the tons of Federal regulations that there are. They ARE there,however, to know the rules and keep management from running rough shod over the workers.

  57. “Federal workers were originally barred from forming a Union. It would be very easy to put that ban back in place.”

    It wouldn’t be very easy. It would be quite hard. And public sector unions have been around since the National Association of Letter Carriers was formed in 1889. So you are dipping quite far back into the nostalgia pile for precedent here.

  58. Trumps number is above 51% today and he has beaten the last 3 presidents in where they were polling at 2 1/2 years into their administration.

    42.4 approve
    52.8 disapprove

    Try a site other than real clear politics – one that aggregates and weighs the quality of the polls.

    Quinnipiac is gold standard – they’re aren’t bullish on your cult leader’s prospects.

  59. They had no collective bargaining ability. FDR guaranteed that PRIVATE CORPORATION UNIONS could have Collective Bargaining, but how Federal Workers could NOT have Collective Bargaining.

    President Roosevelt articulated his position on the collective bargaining of Federal government employees at a press conference on July 9, 1937, at which he recounted his experiences working with employee representatives while serving as Assistant Secretary of the Navy during the Wilson Administration.

    The President then articulated the distinction between Federal employees and non-governmental workers, particularly emphasizing the responsibility of the former to the citizenry and the limitations placed on the scope of collective bargaining by the fact that Congress actually sets the wage scale for Federal workers.

    The opportunity then presented itself a short time later for the President to more formally set forth the Administration’s position when Luther C. Steward, President of the National Federation of Employees, asked Roosevelt to attend the organization’s twentieth annual convention.

    President Roosevelt, through White House secretary William D. Hassett, solicited a draft response from the head of the Civil Service Commission, particularly emphasizing the points he had made in his earlier press conference on the subject. The draft reply to Mr. Steward was personally reviewed by the Attorney General and then sent to Mr. Steward by the President on August 16, 1937.

    The White House released the letter publicly in September, and it became the Administration’s official position on the collective bargaining of Federal government employees.

  60. And they’ve had it since Kennedy.

  61. President Trump Job Approval

    Rasmussen Reports

    Approve51

    Disapprove47

  62. “President Trump Job Approval

    Rasmussen Reports

    Approve51

    Disapprove47”

    And Rasmussen has an inbuilt Republican bias. Which is why Nate Silver, in correcting bias in polling companies, reduced their 51 to 45.

  63. Trump campaign’s internal polling shows him getting his ass kicked all over the place.

    Read it and weep, peasant.

  64. Quinnipiac of course is a university in Connecticut; I know two who graduated From there

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac_University

  65. Trumps number is above 51% today

    You mean on Fox? Can you post a link to support that? Because this says 42%:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

  66. yes yes Trump is hated whoever gets the Dem nomination is going to win…….

  67. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trump_administration/trump_approval_index_history

  68. Well done Daphne. You can smell the fear. Trump v Biden will be the dirtiest election ever, but Biden is up for it.

  69. “http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trump_administration/trump_approval_index_history”

    Rasmussen has an inbuilt Republican bias. Which is why Nate Silver, in correcting bias in polling companies, reduced their 51 to 45.

  70. lmao…. yes the fear is pungent…..

    It’s coming from those that are about to be indicted Comey, McCabe, Yates, Lynch, Brennen, Clapper, and Lynch.

  71. Rasmussen has an inbuilt Republican bias. since when?

  72. For a long time.

  73. if you say so……

    And every poll at this time last Pres election had Hillary ahead by 30 points…… so I really have a hard time with any polls where Trump is concerned.

  74. Whoever beats Trump next year will need to win bigly. Because Trump has made it clear that he will go to the Supreme Court if he loses narrowly. And we know that beer boy and his Republican conservative pals will do their duty if they get the chance. They will be on a high after striking down Roe v Wade.

  75. Maybe he’ll frame them and try a coup…..

    Just like they did to him…..

  76. I was watching Fredo Cuomo interview McCabe yesterday and the idiot layed out exactly how he and everyone involved in the coup can be indicted through RICO without even realising it.

  77. Peter 1237

    Trump Has already started the juvenile name- calling. Which so delights his ignorant, angry, embittered base.

    Biden or whoever else it is shouldn’t do any of that.

    An implicit “ Restore dignity to the White House “ Campaign could do exceptionally well.

  78. yes creepy uncle joe will restore dignity…..

    but that’s my nick name for him…. what’s Trump’s for him today?

  79. I got a question was it dignified when Bill Clinton was getting a hummer by a 19yr old intern in the White House?

  80. How about when Obama went to bed while four Americans were being butchered got up the next morning lied about it blamed on an american film mar and then flew off to a fundraiser before the bodies were even recovered…

    that was a real display of dignity.

  81. Your selective outrage is amusing….

  82. Polls are meaningless at this point. G.H.W. Bush was at 81% approval on the first Gulf War victory and lost b/c of Perot. Hillary was leading most polls until the day before the election and lost.

  83. She won the popular vote –

    National gross total polls mean nothing at any time

    You almost need 50 polls

  84. the polls were wrong last election up until 5pm election day last pres election. What leads anyone to believe they are more accurate now.

  85. hey anyone on that side of the pond….. is this real?

    https://twitter.com/winstonCovfefe/status/1139659174609076224

    Meanwhile, in Dublin, Ireland..
    Thousands of venerable ppl from the religion of peace screaming “Allah Akbar” and chanting “Down, down, USA”, “USA you will pay”, very peacefully.
    #ReligionOfPeace

  86. “the polls were wrong last election” The Russians made sure of the results they wanted.

  87. lmao….

  88. Hey anyone on that side of the pond….. is this real?

    It’s a video shown quite a few times over the years on Youtube claiming to be a march for or against various different things. The earliest publication I can see of it is from 2012 :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SggQhHdZ1Y

  89. Patrick

    What is your view on this ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/15/welcome-to-trumps-corrupt-state-the-star-wars-cantina-of-world-politics

  90. Patrick Van Roy,
    //hey anyone on that side of the pond….. is this real?//

    I’ve seen this video before, it’s from many years ago and it surfaces every few years, usually with a different reason for the protest.

  91. Colm.

    Off topic but just out of interest Colm, what’s your view on the BBC scrapping free licences for the over 75’s?

  92. Dave

    I don’t agree with it in general but I can see that genuinely wealthier over 75s, say those with an income of above £30,000 could be expected pay for it. However my preferred option would be to abolish the licence fee and provide the BBC funding as a direct govt. grant from general taxation.

  93. Colm.

    I’ve noticed something that seems you’ve been missed from this story by the general media is that the less well-off over 75’s still won’t have to pay the licence fee.
    It’s interesting how the media twists these stories sometimes.
    however, the BBC has been very naughty over this, as the government told them that if they take responsibility for funding over 75’s, then they could raise the licence by an above inflation amount for everybody, which they actually did.
    I totally disagree with you about funding the BBC from general taxation at the current yearly cost. People should not be forced to pay for the BBC if they don’t use it.
    I wouldn’t object to say, £20 a year coming out of general taxation to fund a much smaller BBC, or a small part of the current BBC.

  94. //What is your view on this?//

    Drain the swamp!!

  95. It would be interesting to see if Patrick or other Trump supporters here can be honest about the rampant corruption in the administration revealed by this article and not just dismiss it as a “ lefty Guardian smear “

  96. thanks for information on the vid guys.

  97. Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor,(under Bill Clinton) is professor of public policy at the University of California at Berkeley and a close personal friend of Bill and Hillary Clinton….. is the Author of your article Colm.

    The fact that a member of the Clinton Administration is bad mouthing the Trump administration in a paper in a foreign country alone should cause any American to dismiss it….

    However…. none of what he writes is surprising it’s SOP in Washington Colm shoot the list he writes isn’t even that bad, and anyone who’s close friends with the Clintons calling anyone a grifter is comedy you can’t buy.

  98. Does his position detract from the truth of what he says or the fact the Trump has not only failed to ‘drain the swamp’ but has actually added to the corruption?

  99. Always, diversion from this lot

  100. What are you talking about Phantom…. what diversion and Paul what detraction… I said…

    However…. none of what he writes is surprising it’s SOP in Washington Colm shoot the list he writes isn’t even that bad,

    How is that a disagreement with what Reich wrote?

    I do feel it is important however to take note at who is saying this.

  101. Paul what detraction […]

    I do feel it is important however to take note at who is saying this

    Okay, it’s noted that it’s a former member of Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton’s administrations.

    Now, does that detract from the accuracy of the claims made in the article and that fact that Trump has not only failed to drain the swamp but actually added to the corruption?

  102. Like I said I don’t see anything new in what he points out. Acting like it’s something new or worse than normal is just bull.

    here Paul off topic, but here this made me laugh this morning

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey7FDaj4gYA

  103. Paul, the Guardian article is long on insinuation and short on facts it seems to me. Thankfully it doesn’t continue with the collusion meme, since no collusion occurred. Yes, the article mentions some Republicans with their snouts in the trough, but doesn’t mention much about Trump being personally corrupt.

    As for Trump being able to “drain the swamp”, that may be too tall an order even for Trump.

  104. only way to eventually drain the swamp is term limits

  105. “only way to eventually drain the swamp is term limits”

    Term limits would make it worse, not better. It would make things more corrupt as the corrupt Senators and Congressmen would have only a small number of years to make money (thus encouraging them to take even more bribes).

  106. “only way to eventually drain the swamp is term limits”

    Term limits will make things worse. Senators and Congressmen, if they are that way inclined, would only have a short amount of time to feather their nests. As such they will need to be even more corrupt to do so.

  107. Test

  108. When he was in Congress, the current White House acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, pocketed tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from payday lenders, then proposed loosening regulations on them. Mulvaney was also acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

    When he was Trump’s special adviser on regulatory reform, the Wall Street billionaire Carl Icahn sought to gut the Environmental Protection Agency rule on ethanol credits, which was harming his oil refinery investments

    This week the Guardian reported that a real estate company partly owned by Trump son-in-law and foreign policy adviser Jared Kushner has raked in $90m from foreign investors since Kushner entered the White House, through a secret vehicle run by Goldman Sachs in the Cayman Islands. Kushner’s stake is some $50m

    The secretary of transportation, Elaine Chao, who also happens to be the wife of the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, has approved $78m in grants for her husband’s home state, Kentucky, including a highway improvement project twice rejected in the past. Chao has even appointed a special liaison to coordinate grants with McConnell’s office

    Since he was elected in November, congressman Greg Pence, who just happens to be the brother of Vice-President Mike Pence, has spent more than $7,600 of campaign funds on lodging at the Trump International Hotel in Washington. Federal election law forbids politicians from using campaigns dollars to cover housing costs

    That’s what the article states about some of the Trum administration Charles. It seems pretty heavy on fact to me? And that’s of course only that article, before we even start on the Ivanka / Jared show stuff.

    As for Trump being able to “drain the swamp”, that may be too tall an order even for Trump.

    That’ll be up there along with the wall of his signature campaign promises he failed to deliver on then. My point however is that not only has he not drained the swamp but his administration has actually added to it.

    Acting like it’s something new or worse than normal is just bull.

    New or worse than normal or not, not only has he not eradicated the ‘normal’ as he promised but his administration has actually added to it

  109. Charles

    I expect that from the others but not from you, not In June 2019

    Trump is a common criminal. He Is the swamp. He is the leader of a crime family, a John Gotti type

    Yesterday, he said That he won’t Fire Kellyanne Conway even though she has repeatedly violated the Hatch Act,

    He told George Stephanopoulos that he would take political information from a foreign power when in a campaign, And that he wouldn’t necessarily report it to the FBI – That is collusion, and he admitted it in the open -Before pretending to walk it back

    He has openly engaged in witness tampering, details which of been spelled out here many times

    Other crimes have been discussed at length here, Including his theft from charities and defrauding small contractors

    You’re a smart guy, a man of ethics. You would never do any of the things that he does.

    How in the name of God can you possibly think that this guy is any sort of reformer

  110. and your point……..?

  111. Phantom, you’re going over the top my friend. I was simply critiquing the article.

  112. And your point……..?

    This:

    My point however is that not only has he not drained the swamp but his administration has actually added to it.

    New or worse than normal or not, not only has he not eradicated the ‘normal’ as he promised but his administration has actually added to it

    Pat, I’m working on a piece as we speak. Will you be at your computer for the next few hours?

  113. yes

  114. Do you think that Trump has the slightest interest in cleaning up the political system?

    If so, how?

  115. by indicting everyone that tried to frame him…. that will go a long way to draining the swamp.

  116. I look at what’s being written here and the Trump boast about shooting in someone in broad daylight and it not affecting the vote of some sections of his electorate rings true.

    Trump’s administration are draining the cash from the swamp into their own pockets and some of his supporters here are pretending not to notice.

  117. lmao….

    Paul it’s hard for anyone in the US to be surprised by members of any administration lining their pockets.

    To expect us to be outraged by any of this is a bit much.

  118. Come to think of it, Trump still owes the taxpayers of El Paso $350K. I’ve been screwed by him personally! lol…

  119. Beto O’Rourke paid El Paso For the services provided to his big presidential rally, Trump did not Pay El Paso for the similar services provided for him. Trump will eventually pay it but only when the press Publicity gets too much. ( Wonder why he hates the free press? )

    He has never wanted to pay his bills

    Remember when he was running for president and he promised to give a donation to veterans? It was only after reporters chased him that he finally paid that money months and months later

  120. Paul it’s hard for anyone in the US to be surprised by members of any administration lining their pockets

    I’m not expecting you to be ‘outraged’. What I’m expecting you to do is to acknowledge that not only has Trump spectacularly failed in his signature campaign promise to ‘drain the swamp’ but his administration have actually added to the corruption. I would also expect you to condemn him as head of his administration for allowing it to happen.

  121. I guess this discussion shows that most political corruption and abuse of financial power happens for 2 reasons. One is that virtually no politician seriously wants or indeed can change the huge network of systems and processes that allow such abuse and secondly, most voters either don’t care enough or put their partisan preferences ahead of any real desire to demand change.

  122. I think this discussion shows two things. One is that virtually no politician or party is either serious or capable of enabling rules to deal with this corruption or abuse of financial power and two, the voters either don’t really care or allow their partisan political preferences to better their desire to hold elected officials to account.

  123. His signature campaign issue was the Border.

    Trying to drain that swamp is a folly that no one man can do.

    Term limits and a ban on any politician or politicians family member being employed by K Street.

    That is the only way to even start draining the swamp.

  124. That’s that away Pat. Please check your mail.

  125. test

  126. His signature campaigns were to build a wall and ‘drain the swamp’. He hasn’t come even close to the first one and hasn’t only failed but has added to the second.

    I would also expect you to condemn him as head of his administration for allowing it to happen.

    You’ve said many times here you would condemn Trump for anything untoward, so?

  127. The first part is being accomplished, the second is folly….

    I’ll check my mail.

  128. As we’ve discussed before, fences are being built across stretches of the border. A far cry from his ‘build a wall and make Mexico pay for it’. The second, if you don’t think Trump should be condemned for lying saying he was going to ‘drain the swamp’ should he be condemned for allowing his administration to contrinute to it?

    You’ve said many times here you would condemn Trump for anything untoward, so?

  129. The Trump administration is probably the most corrupt in US history. Starting with the Trump Washington hotel where those hoping to influence Trump spend oodles of money which directly financially benefits Trump who owns the hotel. That also gives others the signal it is OK to be corrupt in some of the examples Robert Reich points out.

    Compare this corrupt situation with the Obama administration. Over eight years there are few, if any, instances of corruption. Those who worked for Obama knew he would not tolerate corruption. Trump is the opposite, he sets the example for corruption and it runs through his administration.

  130. There was no known corruption under Obama AFAIK – the GOP/RNC Lie Machine had to make up things like ” Uranium One ” , charges which were entirely bogus.

    Obama told the AG staff that they didn’t work for him, that they worked for the country. Compare that with how Trump demanded personal loyalty from Comey, Sessions, how he now has it from the perjurer AG Barr

  131. Test two

  132. A couple of comments from Colm and Seamus were marked as spam. I marked them as ” not spam “

  133. Yes I thought I was being banned earlier when my comments wouldn’t post. My comments can sometimes be hammy but they are not spammy 😉

  134. Seamus

    I agree that term limits will make things more corrupt, not less corrupt.

    The likes of Adelson, Soros, other political financiers will be greater than now.

  135. Cheers Phantom. I was wondering what was happening there.

  136. In reality the best way to combat corruption is transparency. I’m loathe to suggest that individuals, whether former congressmen, or current politicians spouses or children, should be banned from this activity or that activity.

    A fully independent, bipartisan watchdog, with subpoena powers, who will audit all major politic actors (executive, legislative and judicial). If you are the President, a Cabinet Secretary, a Senator, a Congressman etc… you have give this watchdog full access to your financial affairs.

  137. There was no known corruption under Obama AFAIK

    OMG….. that’s because this is you…. https://theoutloudblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/head-up-ass.jpg

    Lets ignore Clinton and just look at Biden who blackmailed Ukraine to get his son out of trouble and openly bragged about it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHIpoiWF1HU

    and while he was in China flew his son with him on AF2 and the chicoms set him up with a 1.5 BILLION DOLLAR Hedge Fund

  138. Phantom, on June 15th, 2019 at 7:02 PM Said:
    Seamus

    I agree that term limits will make things more corrupt, not less corrupt.

    The likes of Adelson, Soros, other political financiers will be greater than now.

    Once again wrong….. it would attract the right people for office. People who want to do their civic duty not people who just want to acquire wealth and power. It takes the money out of it.

  139. “Once again wrong….. it would attract the right people for office. People who want to do their civic duty not people who just want to acquire wealth and power. It takes the money out of it.”

    How would it attract the right people?

    And how would it take the money out of it? Surely it would accelerate the money process? Instead of having 30-40 years to make money you only have say 12 years to do it.

  140. Seamus I will do a post on Term Limits it’s too long to go into detail here, but I promise over the next couple of days I will spell it out and you and Phantom can tell me why I’m wrong.

  141. The problem isn’t – just – politicians who enter the field to make money. Very many politicians aren’t wealthy at all, Or could have made much more money in private industry/practice ( Carter, Schumer etc )

    Forget about how much money the politicians make – The problem is the influence of big money on politics. That’s the problem. And it is exceptionally naïve to think that term limits would fix any of that.

  142. wrong…..

    and what about that Biden Corruption Phantom?

  143. just to add a little fun facts. This list was compiled at the end of Obama’s FIRST term and doesn’t include the second…. but it’s a good start to show how scandal free it was.

    1. IRS targets Obama’s enemies: The IRS targeted conservative and pro-Israel groups prior to the 2012 election. Questions are being raised about why this occurred, who ordered it, whether there was any White House involvement and whether there was an initial effort to hide who knew about the targeting and when.

    2. Benghazi: This is actually three scandals in one: The failure of administration to protect the Benghazi mission; the changes made to the talking points in order to suggest the attack was motivated by an anti-Muslim video; and the refusal of the White House to say what President Obama did the night of the attack.

    3. Keeping an eye on The Associated Press: The Justice Department performed a massive cull of Associated Press reporters’ phone records as part of a leak investigation.

    4. Rosengate: The Justice Department suggested that Fox News reporter James Rosen is a criminal for reporting about classified information and subsequently monitored his phones and emails.

    5. Potential Holder perjury I: Attorney General Eric Holder told Congress he had never been associated with “potential prosecution” of a journalist for perjury when in fact he signed the affidavit that termed Rosen a potential criminal.

    6. The ATF “Fast and Furious” scheme: Federal agencies allowed weapons from U.S. gun dealers to “walk” across the border into the hands of Mexican drug dealers. The ATF summarily lost track of scores of those weapons, many of which were used in crimes, including the December 2010 killing of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

    7. Potential Holder perjury II: Holder told Congress in May 2011 that he had just recently heard about the Fast and Furious gun walking scheme when there is evidence he may have known much earlier.

    8. Sebelius demands payment: HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius solicited donations from companies HHS might regulate. The money would be used to help her sign up uninsured Americans for Obamacare.

    9. The Pigford scandal: An Agriculture Department effort that started as an attempt to compensate black farmers who had been discriminated against by the agency but evolved into a gravy train delivering several billion dollars in cash to thousands of additional minority and female farmers who probably didn’t face discrimination.

    10. GSA gone wild: The General Services Administration in 2010 held an $823,000 training conference in Las Vegas, featuring a clown and a mind readers. Resulted in the resignation of the GSA administrator.

    11. Veterans Affairs in Disney World: The agency wasted more than $6 million on two conferences in Orlando. An assistant secretary was fired.

    12. Sebelius violates the Hatch Act: A U.S. special counsel determined that Sebelius violated the Hatch Act when she made “extemporaneous partisan remarks” during a speech in her official capacity last year. During the remarks, Sebelius called for the election of the Democratic candidate for governor of North Carolina.

    13. Solyndra: Republicans charged the Obama Administration funded and promoted its poster boy for green energy despite warning signs the company was headed for bankruptcy. The administration also allegedly pressed Solyndra to delay layoff announcements until after the 2010 midterm elections.

    14. AKA Lisa Jackson: Former EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson used the name “Richard Windsor” when corresponding by email with other government officials, drawing charges she was trying to evade scrutiny.

    15. The New Black Panthers: The Justice Department was accused of using a racial double standard in failing to pursue a voter intimidation case against Black Panthers who appeared to be menacing voters at a polling place in 2008 in Philadelphia.

    16. Waging war all by myself: Obama may have violated the Constitution and both the letter and the spirit of the War Powers Resolution by attacking Libya without Congressional approval.

    17. Biden bullies the press: Vice President Biden’s office has repeatedly interfered with coverage, including forcing a reporter to wait in a closet, making a reporter delete photos, and editing pool reports.

    18. AKPD not A-OK: The administration paid millions to the former firm of then-White House adviser David Axelrod, AKPD Message and Media, to promote passage of Obamacare. Some questioned whether the firm was hired to help pay Axelrod $2 million AKPD owed him.

    19. Sestak, we’ll take care of you: Former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel used Bill Clinton as an intermediary to probe whether former Rep. Joe Sestak (D-Pa.) would accept a prominent, unpaid White House advisory position in exchange for dropping out of the 2010 primary against former Sen. Arlen Specter (D-Pa.).

    20. I’ll pass my own laws: Obama has repeatedly been accused of making end runs around Congress by deciding which laws to enforce, including the decision not to deport illegal immigrants who may have been allowed to stay in the United States had Congress passed the “Dream Act.”

    With three-and-a-half years of Obama’s second term remaining, there is no telling how many more scandals will erupt.

  144. Excellent cut and paste

    Your computer works

    That mishmosh Of this and that is not scandal

  145. “what about that Biden Corruption” Did Biden become wealthy from political office? Money is the type of corruption under discussion and how Trump and those in his administration use their office for profit.

  146. How rich is Biden……. he’s been a politician for 40yrs any wealth he got he got from insider trading as a politician.

    And getting your son a billion and half dollars for a his personal hedge fund from the chinese sounds like a lot of money to me… but hey I don’t live in the ny bubble.

  147. no Phantom selling guns to drug dealers that wind up killing cops that’s not a scandal….

    using the IRS to audit and attack your political opponents no scandal….

    bribing a politician with an appointment so he doesn’t run against your friend… nothing there…

    If you can read that list and not see scandal or corruption your company should audit your expense reports.

  148. Does any of the above detract from the fact that the Trump cabal are enriching themselves in the White House?

  149. This list is a bunch of goddamn hogwash

    Your own list mentions Someone violating the Hatch Act

    Kellyanne Conway was cited for violating the Hatch Act repeatedly

    Your lawless president has said that he’s fine with it, And that she won’t be let go.

    Let’s hear your shimmy shake on that issue

  150. To my mind, violation of the Hatch Act has all the gravity of an overdue library book. I’m not bovvered.

    She should just not do it again and move on.

  151. Biden is probably worth $1-2 million. He owns two houses, no stocks or bonds, has a good pension, has income from speaking and books and his wife is a professor. He is comfortable but not really rich. I doubt he profited from the offices he has held. Unlike Trump Biden’s assets were gained honestly.

  152. Really… look at the rest of his family ie: his son. That’s how they do it in Congress NYr.

    There is a great article about it I look it up for you to read it shows the corruption glaringly and it uses Harry Reids family as the example.

    I repeat 1.5 billion from the chinese brought to china on af2.

  153. I’m looking for the pdf I will eventually find it.

    You can’t get much more reliably leftist-slanted than the LA Times, and the Seattle Times, so when both these newspapers reported details of the Reid Crime Family long ago, it’s pretty hard for any politician to say “We had no idea.”

  154. “Really… look at the rest of his family ie: his son. That’s how they do it in Congress NYr.” We are discussing if Biden used his offices to personally profit. It seems he did not. We are not discussing his son.

    You seem incapable of accepting there are honest people who have held important political positions who do not use their offices to enrich themselves. You are using the corrupt Trump administration to blacken all who held office. We are living in an unusual time when the current administration and many associated with them are out to make themselves rich, or richer, by dishonest methods. It is not always the case and when this gang is cleared out, hopefully honesty will return. There are many crooks around but they are vastly outnumbered by good and honest people.

  155. You are using the corrupt Trump administration to blacken all who held office. We are living in an unusual time when the current administration and many associated with them are out to make themselves rich, or richer, by dishonest methods.

    Damn…..

    It’s really sad what hate will do to peoples sound judgement.

    NYr you and I agree about 50% of the time, I have always considered you one of the more logical and reasonable thinkers among us…. what has happened to your reason?

    First off absolute power corrupts absolutely. There are no more privileged people in the United States than our Federal Politicians. They for all intensive purposes are above most laws and they control Trillions of Dollars a year.

    The Government was designed to be run by simple citizens holding office for a few years and then they were supposed to go back to their businesses and farms.

    Over the past 240 years it has evolved into something totally different. There are honest politicians but no one holds office for 20yrs without corruption let alone 40.

    The corrupt Trump Administration….. you mean the one that was just investigated for 2yrs by 20 Prosecutors giving him a full anal exam and they found nothing…. I repeat they found nothing.

    Trump himself is losing money by being President. Which is how it was meant to be, but you and your brethren from NY are so filled with hate you are blinded by reason. I feel bad for you.

    I truly despised Obama. The man is a marxist and did his best to fundamentally change how our government works…. but I never hated him and I never thought the man was corrupt in the sense that he was lining his pockets. Obama believed he was doing right. He was wrong but his motives were pure. You people however are consumed by your hate of Trump so badly that facts and logic no longer apply. That’s sad dude…..

    Trump was investigated for two years and they found nothing. You’re about to see a dozen or so of the highest ranking federal employees and appointed officials be indicted for corruption and abuse of power. The Obama administration was the most corrupt to ever be in power the only administration that would be more corrupt would be if Hillary had won, thank god she didn’t.

    It is going to be an interesting next two years watching you, Phantom and the others lose your minds as these people are dragged into the light.

  156. The corrupt Trump Administration….. you mean the one that was just investigated for 2yrs by 20 Prosecutors giving him a full anal exam and they found nothing…. I repeat they found nothing

    Are you suggesting that the Trump administration has been investigated for financial corruption in office such as the snapshot outlined in the Guardian article above Pat?

  157. I don’t know what was in the Guardian, but I know they went through everything for the past ten years and found nothing.

  158. Paul McMahon, on June 15th, 2019 at 3:39 PM Said:

    When he was in Congress, the current White House acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, pocketed tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from payday lenders, then proposed loosening regulations on them. Mulvaney was also acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

    When he was Trump’s special adviser on regulatory reform, the Wall Street billionaire Carl Icahn sought to gut the Environmental Protection Agency rule on ethanol credits, which was harming his oil refinery investments

    This week the Guardian reported that a real estate company partly owned by Trump son-in-law and foreign policy adviser Jared Kushner has raked in $90m from foreign investors since Kushner entered the White House, through a secret vehicle run by Goldman Sachs in the Cayman Islands. Kushner’s stake is some $50m

    The secretary of transportation, Elaine Chao, who also happens to be the wife of the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, has approved $78m in grants for her husband’s home state, Kentucky, including a highway improvement project twice rejected in the past. Chao has even appointed a special liaison to coordinate grants with McConnell’s office

    Since he was elected in November, congressman Greg Pence, who just happens to be the brother of Vice-President Mike Pence, has spent more than $7,600 of campaign funds on lodging at the Trump International Hotel in Washington. Federal election law forbids politicians from using campaigns dollars to cover housing costs

    That’s what the article states about some of the Trum administration Charles. It seems pretty heavy on fact to me? And that’s of course only that article, before we even start on the Ivanka / Jared show stuff.

    ?

  159. Where are the charges?

    I see a lot of accusation and a bit of bitching about SOP with Elaine Chao, but no indictments filed anywhere.

  160. Charges by whom? Are any of the allegations above criminal in nature? Do there have to be charges for something to be true?

  161. Do there have to be charges for something to be true?

    No, but if there are no charges it’s irrelevant.

  162. Don’t be ridiculous Pat.

    Who should bring the charges and what should the basis of the charges be?

  163. That’s the point Paul it’s a non story just background spin noise.

    You can’t charge anyone cause there’s no crime. It’s unseamly but that’s everyone in Washington. Both sides at that level.

    There is a reason that the largest concentration of wealth in the united states is located in the suburbs of DC.

  164. I got a story i’m working on in draft that should spark some good conversation…. 😉

    It’s a bit long but I hope people find it worth reading.

  165. That’s the point Paul it’s a non story just background spin noise

    Except it’s not, not by a long shot. The article is a snapshot of how an administration who promised to ‘drain the swap’ not only spectacularly failed to do it but actually contributed to the corruption swamp by enriching themselves in the White House.

    You can’t charge anyone cause there’s no crime

    So why then are you continuously going on about charges? Political corruption isn’t always necessarily a criminal offence.

    You agree that the Mueller investigation into Trump that you cite above is a totally different matter to this and has no relation to the subject yes?

  166. Political corruption isn’t always necessarily a criminal offence.

    and how does that make you feel?

    Personally it pisses me off. These people need to be held to stricter standards not laxxer ones.

  167. You agree that the Mueller investigation into Trump that you cite above is a totally different matter to this and has no relation to the subject yes?

    yes

  168. And how does that make you feel?

    Personally it pisses me off. These people need to be held to stricter standards not laxxer ones.

    Like you it pisses me off but that’s neither here nor there to the central crux of the debate. An administration that promised to ‘drain the swap’ has not only failed to do this but has actually exacerbated the problem of corruption:

    What I’m expecting you to do is to acknowledge that not only has Trump spectacularly failed in his signature campaign promise to ‘drain the swamp’ but his administration have actually added to the corruption. I would also expect you to condemn him as head of his administration for allowing it to happen.

    Yes

    Good. Then the comment above about an investigation for two years by twenty investigators is superfluous.

  169. PVR

    “Trump was investigated for two years and they found nothing”. If you read the Mueller Report you will see that plenty was found including obstruction of justice. Trump will be investigated for the rest of his life because he is a lifelong criminal. You like to repeat the “found nothing” phrase which is plainly not true.

    “Trump himself is losing money by being President.” That is what he says but like much of what he says is probably a lie. He’s not losing money on his Washington Hotel. He just sold a $13million home in Beverly Hills for twice what he paid for it. We have no idea of what he was worth when he became president and how much he is worth now. He does everything possible to keep his financials secret which most other presidents have not. He goes to extremes to keep all details of his worth hidden. Why do you think that is so?

    “but I never hated him and I never thought the man was corrupt in the sense that he was lining his pockets.” I agree. The point is the contrast with the Trump administration in which several are lining their pockets at the taxpayers expense. Some have left the administration for that very reason.

  170. NYr I feel for you, but my friend you are wrong, sorry.

  171. Speaking of corruption Sara Netanyahu, the wife of Bibi, has been convicted of illegally misusing thousands of dollars of public funds. In a plea agreement the prosecutors dropped the more serious charges (related to hundreds of thousands of dollars of corruption) in exchange for a guilty plea on lesser charges.

  172. He is definitely losing money by being president but not for the reason that you think

    He is now widely despised, and people generally do not want to stay at his hotels, Or eat at the restaurants in them, or have weddings and other events in the ballrooms.

    Average price for high and middle level brand rooms his hotels Are significantly down, when they are not down at other hotels in the same cities
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-17/trump-hotels-top-room-rates-down-25-in-past-year-report-shows

    The Washington DC hotel is a special case, where foreign and domestic Lobbyists have made a point to stay there

    Trump tower condo prices have collapsed
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/382814-trump-tower-condos-value-dropping-faster-than-comparable-properties

    I visited Trump Tower NY About a month ago. The bar and the restaurant were empty

    The condo owners in several buildings Voted to take the Trump name off their buildings

    He has definitely lost money, but this was not planned. He has lost revenue and net worth because his brand has become radioactive

  173. This tweet hasn’t aged well……

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/141604554855825408

    Donald J. Trump
    ‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

    In order to get elected, @BarackObama will start a war with Iran.
    11:48 am – 29 Nov 2011

    H/T to The Daily Stormer

    The irony of this aside.

    Just… put that aside for a minute. Or forever. Because really, it just is what it is.

    The more interesting thing about this tweet is that it shows that Donald Trump believes that starting a war with Iran is a plausible strategy for an American president to win reelection.

    Will that work for him?

    I don’t really have a good guess on that. And I don’t make predictions.

    What I will say is that at this point, it couldn’t possibly hurt. Assuming Joe Biden doesn’t make a serious gaffe, he’s really got his work cut out for him. And starting a war is much easier than doing actual work – like, say, stopping the invasion, or at least maybe shutting down the tranny wellness centers for tranny immigrants.

    So this whole false flag march to war definitely goes way beyond just shilling for Jews. It is a personal interest issue.

    If you’re in Trump’s shoes, and you don’t really give a fuck about anything other than yourself, you’ve got a lot of reasons to start this war.

  174. I read elsewhere that the Norwegian ship supposedly attacked has a Russian crew – accordng to Al-Jazeera. If so, a very hoaxy event is now even hoaxier. Remember the Maine, and the Gulf of Tonkin

  175. Crisis initiation…….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-mo96i_4iI

    Mind88Music2
    Published on 28 Sep 2012
    Patrick Clawson, the debonair and wanna-be comic director of the Washington Institute, an influential Washington NeoCon Think Tank, was also formerly involved with such Spiritual and giving Institutions as the IMF and the World Bank – and this is what he had to say regarding “crisis initiation” with Iran…..notice how all the historical references he makes are False Flags that allowed the United States an excuse to get into a war…..obviously that is what he is suggesting, I just can’t believe he would say it in public….that is arrogance. These are the brainiacs that run our World, my friends. You know he got beat up every day at school….and I mean by the teachers, too. These depraved sick morons are not elected AND they are responsible for the death and destruction on this Planet….

    Here’s what the scumbag said:

    I frankly think that crisis initiation is really tough and it’s very hard for me to see how the United States president can get us to war with Iran which leads me to conclude that if in fact compromise is not coming that the traditional way of America gets to war is what would be best for US interests.

    Some people might think that Mr. Roosevelt wanted to get us in to the World War Two as David mentioned. You may recall we had to wait for Pearl Harbor.

    Some people might think Mr. Wilson wanted to get us into World War One. You may recall he had to wait for the Lusitania episode

    Some people might think that Mr. Johnson wanted to send troops to Vietnam. You may recall they had to wait for the Gulf of Tonkin episode.

    We didn’t go to war with Spain until the USS Maine exploded, and may I point out that Mr. Lincoln did not feel he could call off the federal army until Fort Sumter was attacked which is why he ordered the commander at Fort Sumter to do exactly that thing which the South Carolinians had said would cause an attack.

    So if in fact the Iranians aren’t going to compromise it would be best if somebody else started the war…

    But I would just like to suggest that one can combine other means of pressure with sanctions. I mentioned that explosion on August 17th. We could step up the pressure. I mean look people, Iranian submarines periodically go down – someday one of them
    might not come up.

    Who would know why?

    We can do a variety of things if we wish to increase the pressure. I’m not advocating that but I’m just suggesting that a it’s…this is not an either-or proposition of, you know, it’s just sanctions has to succeed or other things.

    We are in the game of using covert means against the Iranians. We could get nastier than that.

  176. Phantom

    “He is now widely despised, and people generally do not want to stay at his hotels, Or eat at the restaurants in them, or have weddings and other events in the ballrooms.” That sounds right to me. His ‘brand’ is doing very poorly, especially with people of means who generally despise him.

    His polls are also doing poorly. He just fired the pollsters that showed him losing by significant percentages to Biden in battleground states. The election is long away but he apparently realizes his poll numbers are a bad omen and decided to shoot the messengers.

  177. I saw that, about the firing of the pollster. That was a very stupid, Impulsive move.

    A pollster like that Could be his best friend, who shows him where the problems are

    Yes, Election day is a long time away.

    But as it stands now, I’d have a very hard time seeing Trump beating Biden in places like Pennsylvania and Michigan.

    Many white blue-collar workers saw Hillary, probably correctly, as someone who looked down on them, Biden does not have any of that baggage

    I think that Trump will pay an electoral price for his unmanly, un-adult, perpetually complaining style. As Bill Maher said, Trump has been a “ whining little bitch “ from the first day. His hard core base loves him for that style, more than than they love him for his stance on any issue.

  178. Phantom, all reporting on the firing of the pollsters say it’s because they leaked the bad poll numbers to reporters – not because they discovered bad poll numbers.

  179. The Pollster was fired for leaking, and the 63 million that voted for him haven’t wavered on their support.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=GVmeeYwEiQw

  180. Trump shot the messengers because the message infuriated him. Leaking is the PR cover story. Trump has a problem with reality, when he doesn’t like it, he dismisses it by firing truth tellers or lying. That is what is happening here and only chumps believe the PR cover story.

    People have had nearly three years of observing Trump. He has not done much of what he promised to do and made several errors. He also to many seems untrustworthy and swivel headed on policy. As a person he is unlikable to many. We will see about the unwavering 63 million, but it would be unwise to count on it after three years with a lousy record and a lousy personality.

  181. There were a surprising number of Swing state voters who voted for Obama both times but who then later voted for Trump.

    I won’t be surprised if a number of them would vote for say Biden next time.

    Reason one – Trump has been completely exposed as unfit

    Reason two – Biden could be seen as a kind of restoration of ( a still very popular ) Obama

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/americans-rank-barack-obama-best-president-lifetimes-poll/story?id=56545031

    Trump and his internet Pom Pom boys couldn’t take it if Obama’s guy unseated Trump, in PA And the other razor thin margin states

  182. NYr I expect it from Phantom, but you have become quite delusional haven’t you?

    So those of us who said the entire time that there was nothing for Mueller to find we were chumps, the story with no one but you and skippy saying otherwise even Daphne corrected ya that the guy was fired for leaking they’re chumps, and the biggest chumps are those that actually believe Trump can be reelected….

    Well you’re wrong on the first two….. we shall see if you get the third strike…

  183. In order to get the war with Iran that is now desired by the US Establishment, enough of the US population has to be persuaded of Iran’s ‘threat’ – and there are now enough people stupid enough and duped enough to achieve that end. The previous occasion that such support was considered necessary was a resounding victory:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/07/usa.theobserver

    Seven in 10 Americans continue to believe that Iraq’s Saddam Hussein had a role in the 11 September 2001 attacks, even though the Bush administration and congressional investigators say they have no evidence of this.

    Sixty-nine per cent of Americans said they thought it at least likely that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, according to a Washington Post poll published yesterday.

    Such is the power of controlled ignorance

  184. What makes you think the US establishment wants war with Iran?

    Perpetual Warmongers like Bolton want it, Crooked Bibi and his Arab Bone Saw Buddy probably think it would be great, but I see zero evidence that the business or military establishment in general wants any such thing.

  185. Phantom – what is Bolton’s job?

    And if you see zero evidence that the Establishment is prepping the dupes for war with Iran, it’s because you don’t look.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/15/iran-oil-tanker-attacks-us-uk

    The US is hoping to “build international consensus” around what officials claim is Iran’s responsibility for damaging two oil tankers in the Gulf of Oman, as UK officials joined the US in formally accusing Iran of carrying out the attacks.

    It’s a familiar pattern……

    http://www.unz.com/article/pearl-harbor-unmasked/

    A Second World War Navy radioman turned journalist, Robert Stinnett was in the National Archives in Belmont, California, researching a campaign-year picture book on George Bush’s South Pacific wartime navy career in aerial reconnaissance — George Bush: His World War II Years (Washington, D.C., Brassey’s, 1992) — and encountered unindexed duplicate copies of Pearl Harbor radio intercept records of Japanese Navy code transmissions — documentary evidence of what actually happened at Pearl Harbor and how it came about. After eight years of further research and a prolonged case at law under the Freedom of Information Act to obtain partial release of these materials, Stinnett published Day of Deceit (2000). A Japanese translation appeared within a year, understandably.

    Stinnett demonstrates, on the basis of extensive incontrovertible factual evidence and self-evidently accurate analysis that President Roosevelt oversaw the contrivance and deployment of a closely-guarded secret plan to goad the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and monitor them while they did it. Stinnett hypothesizes that Roosevelt did this in order to precipitate an unwilling American public into supporting intervention in the Second World War, but whatever the motives or purposes, the facts are now abundantly clear. Stinnett establishes and proves his case with voluminous documentary evidence, including forty-seven pages of Appendices [p. 261-308] presenting photographic reproductions of key official records, as well as numerous others reproduced in the body of the text, and 65 pages [309-374] of closely detailed reference notes. This evidence proves Stinnett’s factual assertions, arguments and conclusions. His research files and notes are deposited at the Hoover Institute library at Stanford. Day of Deceit is exemplary documentary historiography. It presents the material testimony on which its analysis and conclusions are based. Its validity will be clear to any fair-minded reader. Stinnett’s book settles and resolves rational, candid, honest, fact-based discussion and debate about the background of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    One of the things that I didn’t understand about the US embargo of oil sales to Japan was why the Japanese didn’t buy oil from the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia)……

    As Stinnett shows, the plan that eventuated in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was set in motion in early October 1940 based on an “eight-action memo, dated October 7, 1940 … by Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Navy Intelligence.” Of course, it is unlikely that McCollum drafted it on his own initiative, but this is where Stinnett’s paper trail starts. “Its eight actions call for virtually inciting a Japanese attack on American ground, air, and naval forces in Hawaii, as well as on British and Dutch colonial outposts in the Pacific region….” [p. 6-8; the memorandum is reproduced on 261-267]:

    https://israeltodaynews.blogspot.com/2019/04/iran-war-planned-by-trump-2019.html

    WHITE HOUSE INSIDER: War with Iran planned by Trump, to occur in the Fall of 2019
    Tactical nukes and ground invasion planned for Iran, according to whistle-blower

    THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 2019 – ISRAEL TODAY NEWS STAFF

    President Donald Trump and his inner circle are planning an extensive invasion of Iran, according to a source working in the White House.

    The plan involves a ground invasion and the use of tactical nuclear weapons, in a campaign planned for the Fall of 2019. Iran will be “wiped off the map” according to the source, and the war effort is expected to cost “two and half times the Iraq War.”

    The war will be promoted by the news media and Trump will go right along with it, after an “expected False Flag pinned on Iran, probably something involving the boats in the Strait of Hormuz.” The False Flag is an “integral part of the plan” as Iran has reportedly no desire or intent to start a war, according to the whistle-blower.

    Are the controlled media promoting ‘Iran did it’?

  186. Interesting post Allan.

    There is a strking paralell between FDR’s oil embargo on Japan in 1940 and Trump’s economic sanctions on Iran in 2019. Both were aimed at destroying the economy of the USA’s opponent. War was clearly envisaged as an outcome in 1941 whether or not Roosevelt knew in advance about Pearl Harbor. So be sure that war with Iran is clearly seen now as a possible outcome, whether or not it will involve US ground forces invading. The word is that Bolton would settle for massive missile and air attacks aimed primarily at the Republican Guard.

    Iran will of course retaliate on all fronts and this will draw the Israelis into invading Lebanon yet again and also southern Syria. Saudi Arabia will also be attacked by Iran. Tactical nuclear weapons could well be used by the USA (possibly as a last resort) to defend Saudi. After that all bets would be off.