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WHAT DO YOU SEE?

By Pete Moore On June 18th, 2019

To East Ham today, in London –

So, what do you see? East Ham was originally a Saxon settlement, on low marshy ground east of the crumbling Roman London. It remained a village until the late-19th Century, when the railway arrived. Development followed and it became a suburb of London. We see that in the background building, in that unmistakable London Brick. It looks like an old school building to me, now converted to flats. The corner columns, portico and that brick archway are clues to its former use. My primary school, not so far from there, looked exactly like that. I love London Brick. Our forebears built things to last back then. Confidant civilizations do that.

But that’s the past. The present and future is in the foreground and I told you – it’s Jo’Burg.

93 Responses to “WHAT DO YOU SEE?”

  1. Wow – and Longford at the heart of the Irish Empire is also being improved in similar manner.

    Those who are doing this want us gone – completely

  2. The greatest gif…..

    Ah, never mind.

  3. I grew up in East Ham..left in 73. Breaks my heart to see how its changed..not for the better.

    The east end has moved…east. Now in Essex.

  4. But that’s the past. The present and future is in the foreground and I told you – it’s Jo’Burg.

    Those pesky facts still causing you problems aye Pete.

    https://www.numbeo.com/crime/in/Johannesburg

    https://www.numbeo.com/crime/in/London

  5. Birds of a feather flock together. That is what I was always told and, I have to confess, there is a lot of truth in that.

    We are told by the Liberal Elites that ‘diversity’ is a thing to be celebrated. Trouble is they are happy to celebrate it but other people’s backyards not their leafy suburbs or country estates.

  6. Great link, Dave, although it does show London as the capital city with the highest crime rate in Europe, together with Rome.

    Some huge differences here. Drogheda in Ireland looks like the highest crime rate in all of Europe, at almost 60 pc.
    Zurich in Switzerland impressively low at 16 pc.

    In the US, Memphis gets the top score at 76 pc.

    https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps.jsp

  7. Noel

    I know London has a high crime rate mate, I’m not trying to hide that fact. I’m just pointing out the comparing London to Johannesburg is an incredibly stupid in dishonest thing to do.

  8. Did the police ever identify the perpetrators who attacked the two women on London bus?

  9. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/world/europe/lesbian-couple-london-bus-attack.html

  10. No I didn’t know that, but where any of them identified

    I might understand reluctantly why those under 18 would not have their identities revealed, but I certainly would not understand why the name and or mug shot of an 18-year-old would not be disclosed?

    Would it be normal practice for the British cops not to reveal the identity of an 18-year-old accused of a serious crime

  11. No I didn’t know that, but where any of them identified

    I might understand reluctantly why those under 18 would not have their identities revealed, but I certainly would not understand why the name and or mug shot of an 18-year-old would not be disclosed?

    Would it be normal practice for the British cops not to reveal the identity of an 18-year-old accused of a serious crime

  12. I -did-

  13. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&city2=London&tracking=getDispatchComparison

  14. From what I’ve read their identities were not actually published. but I think that might be because many of them were underage. But one of them was identified as Spanish whilst the others were identified as English.
    I’m sort of guessing here that you’re wondering if they were dark-skinned. The answer to that is I don’t know.

  15. Would it be normal practice for the British cops not to reveal the identity of an 18-year-old accused of a serious crime

    I don’t know if I’d describe it is normal, but there are many cases where individuals accused of serious crimes and not identified.

  16. I wasn’t speculating

    But I guarantee you one thing, if such a thing happened here Very many more details including the photo of the 18-year-old would be in all the papers

    And if it were a mob of “ evil white working class English yobs “ Which fit all the stereotype, would there be any more information?

    I would see very little need to protect those who do such deeds

  17. Just another weekend……

    19 shootings, 28 victims, 5 dead as Philly weekend …

    https://www.inquirer.com/crime/philadelphia-shootings-crime-south-street-20190616.html
    Jun 16, 2019 · Among the nonfatal shooting victims Sunday was a 26-year-old man who was shot in the thigh on a playground in the 200 block of East Olney Avenue about 4:40 p.m and two men, ages 17 and 19, who were shot in a double shooting around 10:08 p.m. on the 1800 block of South 31st Street in South Philadelphia.

  18. Patrick

    London. Twinned with Philadelphia. 😁

  19. Phantom.

    In all honesty phantom I can’t answer your questions.
    Only the CPS and the police can.
    That’s not to say I don’t agree that there have been cover-ups in the past. Especially involving certain religious groups and ethnicities.

  20. lovely….. time to move out of there also

  21. Patrick Van Roy,

    Just another weekend……

    thanks to our robust gun laws in the UK, we have a hell of a lot less shootings than you do it Philadelphia.

  22. You know what happened in my town over the weekend….. a horse got spooked and took off through town dragging it’s empty buggy behind it it hit two cars before a young stepped in front of the horse and grabbed it’s reins.

  23. Dave

    Yep

    And your press should be badgering the lousy police to Disclose this information – I’ll bet you a northern Ireland pound that the press already knows these identities. But are not allowed To print them Due to British law

  24. in my tiny part of the English countryside, the only bad thing that happened in the last couple of months, was a couple of drunk, roudy guys walking back from the pub being too noisy.
    Me and my neighbour have promised to try and be quieter next time.

  25. Phantom.

    As I said I don’t know if that’s the reason here for them not disclosing the assailants identities. But I have to accept the possibility that it could be.

    I agree with you about our press, they are pathetic. When are government misuses laws intended to protect disclosing military secrets to stifle press freedom, none of them take a stand against it.

  26. Most likely there are reporting restrictions in place due to some of the accused being under 18. In many cases involving both adults and minors there can be blanket restrictions put in place to prevent identities being disclosed.

  27. Just yesterday in Ireland a really vicious (and fortunately very rare) murder/rape trial came to an end. Two 14 year olds (yes) were found guilty of luring a 14-year-old girl to a derelict house, sexually assaulting her and beating her to death.

    The two will be sentenced later, but their identities will never be published, even after they’ve reached 18.

  28. “The two will be sentenced later, but their identities will never be published, even after they’ve reached 18.”

    Which is probably right. Look at the sheer amount of effort, stress and money spent protecting the new identities of Robbie Thompson and Jon Venables. If the Judge had withheld their names then that may not have been needed.

  29. Noel.

    I was reading about that case yesterday, it’s horrific.

  30. //Look at the sheer amount of effort, stress and money spent protecting the new identities of Robbie Thompson and Jon Venables. If the Judge had withheld their names then that may not have been needed.//

    Are you being sarcastic?

    How about that no effort, stress or money be spent on protecting the identities of vicious killers of children once the perps have reached 18.

  31. “How about that no effort, stress or money be spent on protecting the identities of vicious killers of children once the perps have reached 18.”

    Except you can’t do that. Not in a civilised society. You are effectively deputising a lynch mob. Even the Americans have stopped executing people for crimes committed as children. If Venables and Thompson’s identities were known they would be murdered. Even today. You would be giving the death penalty for crimes committed by a 10 year old.

  32. Seamus.

    I agree with you. But I think that Jon Venables should remain in prison. He’s fallen foul of the law multiple times and keeps having to have his identity changed a great cost to the public.

  33. Possibly. Though there are additional complications to the Venables case, including his (I’m going to call it) rape at the hands of a guard at the young offenders institute he was at. He is clearly messed up in the head. The extent to which he is personally culpable for that is debatable.

  34. // You are effectively deputising a lynch mob. Even the Americans have stopped executing people for crimes committed as children. //

    Straw men, Seamus.

    Nobody’s talking about executing them.
    And the lynch mob argument could be applied to not disclosing the identity of any killer.

    I think there should be no hard and fast rule on this. I know 14 year olds who are as mature as several 19 yr olds I also know.

    If a person is mature, argues deviously in his defence, shows a callous attitude after the murder, fails to help the authorities in locating the body when the girls’s parents are distraught with worry looking for their child, and above all if this teenager is in no way intimidated by the full force of the law when being held in a police cell and with his parents, friends and teams of experienced detectives are all telling him to tell the truth, yet still stays cool and keeps telling lies, then he shows a degree of criminal calculaton and maturity that should be reflected in the sentence.

    Boy B (in the case I mention) did all of that, and forced the girl’s parents to go through all that anguish of uncertainty, and then the additional anguish of a trial with all the gruesome details of their child’s bloody murder laid out before them day by day, just to protect his own miserable ass.

    I don’t see why he should be protected by all that cost and effort on the part of the state to give him a new identity when he’s released as a mature man.

  35. “And the lynch mob argument could be applied to not disclosing the identity of any killer.”

    Few killings have ever generated the level of public hatred as the killing of Jamie Bulger.

    “I don’t see why he should be protected by all that cost and effort on the part of the state to give him a new identity when he’s released as a mature man.”

    Because he is a child. And as a child deserves additional protections. And the evidence from the clinical psychologist who said that all is not right with Boy B and that he was mentally ill was kept from the jury. So you have a potentially mentally ill child here. And what he did was heinous and awful. It still doesn’t change the fact that he is a potentially mentally ill child.

  36. //And as a child deserves additional protections.//

    Yet another straw man, Seamus! (see “when he’s released as a mature man”.)

    There was a lot of crap spoken at the trial, I thought. The state pathologist at one point stated that “any person who had witnessed the murder would be traumatised as a result”.

    This is, first of all, total nonsense. There are many types of people, and not necessarily bad ones either, who would not be traumatised by seeing that murder.

    Second, it was totally out of place for “state pathologist” to speak ex cathedra in making sweeping generalisations about the mental reaction of people, something that isn’t her métier and that should make her opinion as valuable as that of your local barman. Because several witnesses reported that the boys were acting normally in the days after the murder, Marie Cassidy was in effect saying that they must be innocent of the crime.
    And sure enough, when the defence later made its statement they immediately cited the words of this “expert” as evidence that their clients can’t be guilty.

    Madness.

  37. “Yet another straw man, Seamus! (see “when he’s released as a mature man”.)”

    As a child he deserves additional protections, even from the consequences of his own actions. The role of the state is to now do everything it can so that in the future Boy A and Boy B can be responsible members of society. It is the role of the state to rehabilitate, not sate the lusts of the mob.

  38. Seamus, if you can’t avoid straw men, there’s no point in discussing with anyone other than yourself.

  39. I’m not introducing straw men. What straw men arguments have I introduced?

  40. Drogheda in Ireland looks like the highest crime rate in all of Europe

    Well…..Drogheda is famous for being ahead in many things, (see what I did there?)

    Would it be normal practice for the British cops not to reveal the identity of an 18-year-old accused of a serious crime

    Unless they’re absent and wanted in questioning in connection with something it’s my understanding that a name of a suspect will only be revealed in the press after charges have formally been put and there has een a court appearance.

    And if it were a mob of “ evil white working class English yobs “ Which fit all the stereotype, would there be any more information?

    I would see very little need to protect those who do such deeds

    Does your speculation pre suppose that it wasn’t ‘evil white working class English yobs’ or that if it were ‘evil white working class English yobs’ their identies would be revealed?

    The need to ‘protect those who do such deeds’is the assumption of innocence prior to there being a trial and verdict I imagine.

    And your press should be badgering the lousy police to Disclose this information

    Why?

  41. SM1 “You are effectively deputising a lynch mob.”
    (no more than disclosing the identities of any criminal would be, as I pointed out)
    SM2 “Even the Americans have stopped executing people for crimes committed as children”
    (nobody’s talking about executions, as I also pointed out)
    SM3: “And as a child deserves additional protections.”
    (nobody said they didn’t. I constantly referred to the future status of the criminal “WHEN HE’S A MATURE MAN”)

    So while nobody disputes that children deserve special protection in terms of their identity, you seem to be suggesting either that this guy will “stay forever young” or that when he’s an adult he will require protection for the child that he once was.

    BTW, I don’t remember you calling for special protection for that guy Kavanaugh (spelling?) when all the talk was of him getting on top of a girl before he was 18.

  42. “(no more than disclosing the identities of any criminal would be, as I pointed out)”

    Except it isn’t. As the case I highlighted (Venables and Thompson) is so particularly heinous that it risks a violent reaction even now. If that is a straw man then the Judge in March of this year was also engaging in a straw man. “There is a strong possibility, if not a probability, that if his identity were known he would be pursued resulting in grave and possibly fatal consequences.”

    “(nobody’s talking about executions, as I also pointed out)”

    “There is a strong possibility, if not a probability, that if his identity were known he would be pursued resulting in grave and possibly fatal consequences.”

    “(nobody said they didn’t. I constantly referred to the future status of the criminal “WHEN HE’S A MATURE MAN”)”

    Yes. But he is a child now. And the person who committed the crime is a child now. Imposing punishment to his future adult self is to impose future punishment on the child now.

    “So while nobody disputes that children deserve special protection in terms of their identity, you seem to be suggesting either that this guy will “stay forever young” or that when he’s an adult he will require protection for the child that he once was.”

    A) he might require additional protection due to the heinousness of the crime. B) the State’s role should be in rehabilitation, not vengeance. There is no legal purpose, nor move towards rehabilitation that would be benefiting by naming him.

    “BTW, I don’t remember you calling for special protection for that guy Kavanaugh (spelling?) when all the talk was of him getting on top of a girl before he was 18.”

    If in 2050 Boy A is potentially going to be made a Supreme Court Judge then I would argue that his past should be held against him.

  43. //Boy A is potentially going to be made a Supreme Court Judge then I would argue that his past should be held against him.//

    But how can it be held against him if nobody knows who he is, according to your special protection formula?

    //the State’s role should be in rehabilitation, not vengeance.//

    Oh, for God’s sake. Should be, should be. Revenge is and has always been part of the state’s role in executing justice. Think of “penal”, think of “life sentences”, including in Ireland for murder. Right or wrong, punishment has always been a much bigger part of criminal justice it than rehabilitation.

  44. “But how can it be held against him if nobody knows who he is, according to your special protection formula?”

    I’m sure in those circumstances it would be known to the legal profession. The records would be sealed but unsealable.

    “Oh, for God’s sake. Should be, should be. Revenge is and has always been part of the state’s role in executing justice. Think of “penal”, think of “life sentences”, including in Ireland for murder. Right or wrong, punishment has always been a much bigger part of criminal justice it than rehabilitation.”

    And shouldn’t be. And it is wrong that it has any part of it.

  45. Punishment Is of course a valid reason for keeping some people in prison for a long time, or forever

    And keeping Some people off the streets forever offers a protection to the general public .

  46. And shouldn’t be. And it is wrong that it has any part of it

    Absolutely disagree. Punishment is a necessary part of retribution, both in the victim seeing some sense of justice in the guilty ‘paying their debt to society’ and to a lesser degree as a deterrent from the offender or others repeating the offence.

    I do agree though that rehabilitation should play a big part in the criminal justice equation.

  47. I believe protection of society is a valid reason for imprisonment. I think retribution and vengeance are not. If a person is rehabilitated and no longer a risk to society then they should be allowed to rejoin society. Arbitrary punishment is the opposite of justice.

  48. No one’s speaking about arbitrary punishment (I think) but retribution is necessary for the victim to see jstice being done. It is however not the only element of the equation.

  49. “No one’s speaking about arbitrary punishment (I think) but retribution is necessary for the victim to see jstice being done. It is however not the only element of the equation.”

    Punishing someone simply to make the victim feel better is arbitrary, in my opinion.

  50. Absolutely disagree:

    Punishment is a necessary part of retribution, both in the victim seeing some sense of justice in the guilty ‘paying their debt to society’ and to a lesser degree as a deterrent from the offender or others repeating the offence.

  51. For me the role of the criminal justice system should be about moving someone out of society, rehabilitating them, and then moving them back into society. Anything else has no place. It is not about the victim. And it shouldn’t be about the victim. It is about the offender and it is about society.

  52. If someone kills ten people And we are certain that he would never do it again He shouldn’t be punished by a prison term?

    Is that what some of you guys are saying?

  53. If we can be certain of that then no he shouldn’t be.

  54. //And shouldn’t be. And it is wrong that it has any part of it.//

    I’m sure you’d think differently, Seamus, if that defenceless girl in that sordid room was your daughter.
    A society that ensures murderers are punished is a healthy one. One that refuses to punish wrong-doers will sooner or later become neurotic.
    Punishment is a statement of how highly society values the life of that girl and its outrage at her being denied this last right she had.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think Boy B should have been convicted of the charge yesterday.
    Unless I missed something in the trial, it certainly doesn’t look like the prosecution proved “beyond reasonable doubt” that B was aware of just what A was planning to do to the girl.

    I was left wondering why they didn’t have the options of convicting him of something like negligent homicide with aggravating circumstances, instead of murder. After all, he had picked up the girl and brought her to, and handed her over to her murderer. Then, when the boy set about killing the girl, B – according to his account – just looked on and didn’t raise a finger to save her from the desperate predicament he’s put her in. He could have saved her life but didn’t.

    The jury seemed to be facing a choice of either convicting him of murder or letting him walk, and probable decided that everyone is safer (including the boy himself) if he’s locked up.

    But just another of the many idiocies of the jury system, I suppose.

  55. “I’m sure you’d think differently, Seamus, if that defenceless girl in that sordid room was your daughter.”

    I’m sure I would. Which is why in that case I, and in this case the parents of Ana Kriegel, should have no role in determining what happens to the two boys.

    “A society that ensures murderers are punished is a healthy one.”

    A society that punishes for the sake of punishment is not a healthy society.

  56. Seamus that is a highly incorrect point of view

    Genuinely surprised to hear that

  57. Seamus that is a highly incorrect point of view

    Genuinely surprised to hear that

  58. “Unless I missed something in the trial, it certainly doesn’t look like the prosecution proved “beyond reasonable doubt” that B was aware of just what A was planning to do to the girl.”

    I would also broadly agree. I don’t think it was ever established that Boy B knew what Boy A was going to do. The overwhelming physical evidence was all aimed at Boy A. He was the one who actually murdered Ana Kriegel.

    The problem for Boy B is that he repeatedly lied to the Guards. And as such it is hard to establish what is the actual truth.

  59. “Seamus that is a highly incorrect point of view”

    There is no such thing as an incorrect point of view. Points of view are not facts. As such they are neither correct or incorrect. You disagree with my view I’m sure. But it isn’t a question of fact, it is a question of opinion.

  60. Anything else has no place. It is not about the victim. And it shouldn’t be about the victim. It is about the offender and it is about society.

    I absolutely and utterly disagree. Whilst I agree that rehabilitation should be a huge factor in the process it is the victim who has been wronged here and any process that doesn’t take the victim into condiseration isn’t only extreme folly but IMO fundamentally unjust.

    Which is why in that case I, and in this case the parents of Ana Kriegel, should have no role in determining what happens to the two boys.

    I agree, that’s why tariffs are set by the state, but the parents of Ana Kreigal also fundamentally need to see justice done.

  61. ” Whilst I agree that rehabilitation should be a huge factor in the process it is the victim who has been wronged here and any process that doesn’t take the victim into condiseration isn’t only extreme folly but IMO fundamentally unjust.”

    Two cases, both the same. A man rapes and kills a woman. In the first case the victim’s family forgive the murderer and ask for leniency. In the second case the victim’s family don’t forgive the murderer and ask for the harshest possible punishment. Should the two get the same sentence?

    “I agree, that’s why tariffs are set by the state, but the parents of Ana Kreigal also fundamentally need to see justice done.”

    Justice needs to be done, whether people see it or not. Locking people up for longer than necessary simply to allow it be seen is not justice. It is the opposite.

  62. A rapist Should go unpunished if he agrees to be castrated?

    Eichmann should Be allowed to roam the streets of Europe again if he promises not to participate in any more Holocausts

    Bernie Madoff should not go to jail If he agrees never to take a financial position again?

    No. Those would be the norms of a society that no one would want to live in. It is like Ron Paul economic theories, pure fantasy, Divorced from the real world

  63. It is not about agreeing to do this or agreeing to do that. It is about what can be proven and what can’t be. If it can be proven that a rapist is rehabilitated then yes he should go free.

    On a side note, castration of un-rehabilitated rapists is actually quite dangerous. They still have the same desires of power and dominance. And because they can no longer rape their victim with a penis they’ll rape them with a knife instead.

    If Adolf Eichmann could be de-Nazified then he should have been de-Nazified and released (like most Nazis were). I am skeptical of whether or not he could have been de-Nazified.

    “No. Those would be the norms of a society that no one would want to live in. It is like Ron Paul economic theories, pure fantasy, Divorced from the real world”

    Largely because modern society, for all attempts at or insinuations of civility, are still as base as some of our predecessors. The propensity for mob rule is still there. Judgement not done to rehabilitate offenders, or protect society, but to appease the mob. And like modern day Pilates there is still a desire to appease the mob, even at the risk of justice not the serving of it.

  64. //Should the two get the same sentence//

    If the facts are similar so too should the punishment.

    //Locking people up for longer than necessary simply to allow it be seen is not justice//

    I agree and haven’t suggested such a thing

  65. If rehabilitation of an offender say would require 5 years but the victim, or their family, want more than that should, in the interests of the victim or their family, a person be sentenced to longer than 5 years?

  66. //Two cases, both the same. A man rapes and kills a woman. In the first case the victim’s family forgive the murderer and ask for leniency. In the second case the victim’s family don’t forgive the murderer and ask for the harshest possible punishment. Should the two get the same sentence?//

    Of course. A set term of imprisonment, with normal discretion for the judge, should be known to all and should be served by all who commit the crime in question.

    There’s absolutely nothing arbitrary about the imposition of tariffs that are fixed by law and that are well known. What is arbitrary is the vagaries of the jury system.

    //He was the one who actually murdered Ana Kriegel.//

    Assisting the murder is also deemed murder in Irish law. The question was only whether B knew when he provided the assistance that a murder – or very serious harm – was going to take place.

    //The problem for Boy B is that he repeatedly lied to the Guards. And as such it is hard to establish what is the actual truth.//

    Yes. The only facts established were that B was a conniving liar and that he was present at the murder.

    They all said he was extremely clever, one guard (I think) said he was the most intelligent boy of his age he had ever encountered. But his cleverness was his undoing. If he had collapsed in fear and remorse after the murder, or at the latest when the body was found and he was arrested, he would get a very light sentence. It was his attempts to mislead his questioners without having the information they had that did for him.

    I think he definitely deserves punishment for that he did (or neglected to do), but he was probably wrongly convicted of murder, so the relatively lenient sentence he will most probably get will on balance be adequate.

    //Those would be the norms of a society that no one would want to live in. //

    It would also mean that the consideration of the (perhaps unintended) effect of a crime goes out the window. If you are an unlawful holder of a weapon and discharge your gun into the air for fun but the bullet falls and kills someone, you will get a stiff sentence, whereas if it falls into the sand, you will probably get a small fine for unlawful possession.

    The same action, but two very different consequences and two very different sentences. God knows how the “rehabilitation” approach would tackle that. Would you rehabilitate someone for mere possession differently that you’d rehabilitate someone for accidental killing with an unlawful weapon?

  67. There is no such thing as rehabilitation.

  68. No, a it’s a pretty ridiculous suggestion that victims should determine sentencing although IMO a victim’s impact assessment should influence sentencing.

    If the offender meets the minimum tariff criteria then justice should be seen to have been served.

  69. //If Adolf Eichmann could be de-Nazified then he should have been de-Nazified and released (like most Nazis were). I am skeptical of whether or not he could have been de-Nazified.//

    Actually, most leading Nazis were successfully rehabilitated. Once the insane world of the 3rd Reich came to an end, and peace returned to a devastated Germany, all that were free continued with their lives and “moved back into society”. I don’t know of any case where any of them returned to their former life of crime.

    Which raises the question: what do you do with people who are already rehabilitated when they are caught. Eichmann and Mengele and a few others were, by all accounts, productive members of society for years after the war. They had been completely rehabilitated, so to speak.

    But then someone turned up to arrest them. They should have had their rehabilitation quickly verified and then been let back into society immediately. There really wasn’t even need for a trial.

  70. “There’s absolutely nothing arbitrary about the imposition of tariffs that are fixed by law and that are well known.”

    It is kind of the definition. Look at the unjust nature of mandatory minimums. Prison terms, and the regime in prison, should be tailored not to the crime but to the needs of the defendant’s rehabilitation. As such they should be to the full discretion (with guidelines I guess) of the judge who can then apply all the circumstances, including mitigation and aggravation, to the case.

    “I think he definitely deserves punishment for that he did (or neglected to do), but he was probably wrongly convicted of murder, so the relatively lenient sentence he will most probably get will on balance be adequate.”

    I would agree. He is clearly guilty of wrong-doing, even if that wrong-doing was lying to protect his friend.

    “Would you rehabilitate someone for mere possession differently that you’d rehabilitate someone for accidental killing with an unlawful weapon?”

    I imagine it would broadly depend on the facts of the case but broadly I would rehabilitate them in the same manner. In fact there could even be an argument to suggest that the former is in need of a sterner hand. The act of accidentally killing someone could almost be enough in itself to force a guy right. For example a drunk driver who gets caught but doesn’t hurt anyone might drive drunk again. A guy who drives drunk and hits someone may have greater reason than the law for not drinking and driving again.

  71. “Actually, most leading Nazis were successfully rehabilitated.”

    Most of them were. However, Eichmann wasn’t just a run of the mill Nazi. Most of the leading Nazis of his calibre and ilk didn’t long survive the war (either dying during the war, or committing suicide or being executed shortly after). There were very few evil bastards of Eichmann’s nature who were shown to be rehabilitated. And given some of his statements at his trial he suffered no remorse. So I would say he was able to give the external appearance of being rehabilitated and a productive member of society. But scratch that surface even a little and the horror comes out.

  72. Over $1 Billion Worth Of Cocaine Seized At Philadelphia Port, U.S. Attorney’s Office Says

    https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/06/18/15000-kilos-of-cocaine-confiscated-during-drug-bust-at-philadelphia-port-federal-sources-say/

    PHILADELPHIA (CBS) — One of the largest cocaine busts in United States history happened Tuesday in Philadelphia. Federal authorities continue to comb a cargo ship at Packer Avenue Marine Terminal in South Philadelphia. So far, they’ve seized 16.5 tons of cocaine — 33,000 pounds — which has a street value of more than $1 billion, the U.S. Attorney’s Office says.

  73. If it can be proven that a rapist is rehabilitated then yes he should go free.

    I think that to be a position that it both other-worldly and hugely immoral

  74. // even if that wrong-doing was lying to protect his friend.//

    That was pretty mild compared to the terrible crime of looking on while someone murders a helpless girl in front of you, and not raising a finger to protect her, especially when it was you who put her in that situation in the first place.

    //So I would say he was able to give the external appearance of being rehabilitated and a productive member of society.//

    But who can look into the criminal mind? It’s pretty difficult at the best of times and almost impossible when you’re dealing with a seasoned deceiver and a experienced criminal who’s maybe already been in jail several times.

    And just imagine the cost of turning all prisons into huge rehab centres, with all the trained professionals that would entail. Could it even work?

    For me, the point should instead be to determine the freedom of choice the criminal had at the time, and to sentence him accordingly. i.e. to decide whether someone was so warped by past trauma, such as violence or sexual abuse as a child – or even a hereditory predisposition to a particular offence, if that can ever be ascertained,
    or whether instead he was fully aware of the choices he could make and decided to gratify certain instincts and turn a blind eye to the suffering of others.

    In the Lucan case, both boys had a choice to stand on the side of decency and a civil society or follow the criminal path several times and over longer period: when they were in the house with the girl, then later when the girl was missing and her parents were at their wits end looking for her and called to their homes asking about her, then again when they were being interviewed by Gardai and insisted on deceiving them until contradicted by the facts, and finally in the long year between the crime and the trial, when they could have told the full story spared the girl’s parents the torment of hearing all the details in court.

    Each time they chose the way of the criminal and decided to defy society. Society is now fully entitled to exclude them in turn.

  75. //Two cases, both the same. A man rapes and kills a woman. In the first case the victim’s family forgive the murderer and ask for leniency. In the second case the victim’s family don’t forgive the murderer and ask for the harshest possible punishment. Should the two get the same sentence?//

    Both should be executed the victims family is irrelevant. And if two men and a woman go in a place and the men come out and the woman has been murdered…. both men should be executed.

  76. Patrick Van Roy,

    //And if two men and a woman go in a place and the men come out and the woman has been murdered…. both men should be executed.//

    Good job you’re not a high court judge Patrick.

  77. Most Nazis escaped justice, which is not the same thing as saying they were rehabilitaed. As for the 2 individual’s mentioned to suggest they were somehow exonerated by later lives strikes me as a rather unsupportable position.

  78. What do you see?

    On this thread as with all others at ATW, I see the hatred that ‘liberals’ have for their own people. This is, of course, denied by Seamus, Paul, Dave…….and yet:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/284875/americas-white-saviors

    Remarkably, white liberals were the only subgroup exhibiting a pro-outgroup bias—meaning white liberals were more favorable toward nonwhites and are the only group to show this preference for group other than their own. Indeed, on average, white liberals rated ethnic and racial minority groups 13 points (or half a standard deviation) warmer than whites. As is depicted in the graph below, this disparity in feelings of warmth toward ingroup vs. outgroup is even more pronounced among whites who consider themselves “very liberal” where it widens to just under 20 points. Notably, while white liberals have consistently evinced weaker pro-ingroup biases than conservatives across time, the emergence and growth of a pro-outgroup bias is actually a very recent, and unprecedented, phenomenon.

  79. Good job you’re not a high court judge Patrick.

    Did you not tell us once that you trained as a judge Pat? That’s pretty unnuanced, capricious thinking for someone with supposed legal training.

  80. Dave Alton –

    Look at what happened in the video. That’s Africa, right there. That’s the future of the West.

    Demographics is destiny.

  81. Yes, many ex Nazis kept their heads low.

    Wow, what a perfect outcome.

  82. Demographics is destiny.

    Indeed Pete, here’s deep south in January this year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pPgMZvV_VA&has_verified=1

  83. Pete Moore

    //Look at what happened in the video. That’s Africa, right there. That’s the future of the West.

    Demographics is destiny.//

    Perhaps you’re right Pete, so what are you doing to stop it? Other than commenting on ATW which doesn’t do very much really.

  84. “And Longford at the heart of the Irish Empire is also being improved in similar manner”.

    What do you mean, Allan? The new Center Park? Certainly a vast improvement.

  85. Apart from praising the greatest gift to an undeserving world in one breath and condemning its results in the next I can¡t see very much else Dave.

    It was all so much easier when all immigration could be surreptitiously blamed on the EU.

  86. Oh for Christ’s sake don’t start him on that discredited balls Reg.

  87. Paul – fair point, well made. The new Center Parc does look cool though. I’m nearly tempted to book it just to become one of the first people in world history to be able to say “I’m going to Longford on my holidays”.

  88. Paul McMahon,
    //Apart from praising the greatest gift to an undeserving world in one breath and condemning its results in the next I can¡t see very much else Dave.

    It was all so much easier when all immigration could be surreptitiously blamed on the EU.//

    Absolutely spot on mate. 😁

  89. MourneReg, on June 19th, 2019 at 9:13 PM Said:

    “And Longford at the heart of the Irish Empire is also being improved in similar manner”.

    What do you mean, Allan? The new Center Park? Certainly a vast improvement.

    Here was the announcement in The Longford Leader that Longford is to be 50% non-white

    http://archive.is/i1OdU

    Longford to be mixed race county by 2050
    Liam Cosgrove
    by
    Liam Cosgrove
    8 Nov 2017
    Email:
    liam.cosgrove@longfordleader.ie

    Half of Longford’s population will be of a mixed race by 2050, a public meeting has been told.
    Members of the public were informed of the way gardai and various state agencies were already planning to adapt to that changing demographic last week.

    Here are the children at Longford’s primary school:

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YfUMy1yeFDI/XPE6aWcgj1I/AAAAAAAAG3A/A4HGJ_fipd00tJHg_ZmHQx_4dnW1x4s8gCLcBGAs/s1600/longford.jpg

    Clearly, the authorities weren’t joking when they told the local whites that they were to be erased.

    And why does Paul support this attack on his own people in their own land?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/284875/americas-white-saviors

    Remarkably, white liberals were the only subgroup exhibiting a pro-outgroup bias—meaning white liberals were more favorable toward nonwhites and are the only group to show this preference for group other than their own. Indeed, on average, white liberals rated ethnic and racial minority groups 13 points (or half a standard deviation) warmer than whites. As is depicted in the graph below, this disparity in feelings of warmth toward ingroup vs. outgroup is even more pronounced among whites who consider themselves “very liberal” where it widens to just under 20 points. Notably, while white liberals have consistently evinced weaker pro-ingroup biases than conservatives across time, the emergence and growth of a pro-outgroup bias is actually a very recent, and unprecedented, phenomenon.

    ‘Liberals’ who signal their virtue from safe areas (white areas) detest their own.

  90. //Here are the children at Longford’s primary school://

    I always thought that that photo has the look of a collage to it, sort of like the Sgt. Pepper’s cover or something.
    I mean, just look at the boy, the white boy, in the background.

    Also: what Irish class would ever be displaying a “Rangers” sign!

  91. Here was the announcement in The Longford Leader that Longford is to be 50% non-white

    Rather than regurgitate that hoary old balls again just have a read of this thread:

    http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=73416

    Here are the children at Longford’s primary school

    Ah, the old ‘Balbriggan school photo’ trick. I’d like to see the source of the photo because these are verifiably kids at primary in Longford:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/NSNb5pwaGLQVZucH8

    As is this:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/DMmawx3Khtc16QF16

    And this:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/7NR2t2YyGhFpKvuSA

    And this:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/D2pokWp2c4QMr3E89

    Need I go on?

  92. Paul

    Here is one source for that picture mate.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7083949/Gemma-ODoherty-faces-calls-legal-action-sharing-racist-photo.html

  93. Ah, the mooncat O’Doherty. Nothing whatsoever selective about the photo at all.

    Allan tried to pull a similar fast one with his Balbriggan school photo.