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Happy 4th of July

By Patrick Van Roy On July 4th, 2019

Let today’s Music begin with a History Lesson 

228 Responses to “Happy 4th of July”

  1. I think Bill Bailey is right. The Star Spangled Banner should be played in the minor key to fit with a post-2016 theme. Downbeat, depressing and oddly Russian.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPvK5p94rTA

  2. did you play the video…..

  3. If it must be played then this is the version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CejCo2nfNbM

    I’m constantly surprised at the gullibility of Americans to be so easily taken in by mawkish schmaltz.

  4. where did you find that…. that’s cool

  5. “did you play the video…..”

    No. But then I honestly don’t care about the American national anthem.

  6. it’s a history lesson video….. try learning a little….

  7. Bullet point it for me. I prefer reading stuff than listening to it.

  8. the only bullet point that matters is you don’t understand us and you’re not open to learning

    take 5 min and watch…. edumicate yourself son.

  9. I would doubt there is anything in it that I probably didn’t already know and I honestly can’t be bothered listening to another of your videos. It isn’t an unwillingness to learn. It is an unwillingness to listen to nonsense (which 95% of your videos are). And I largely lost any and all will to sift through them to find the 5% that aren’t complete horseshite.

  10. That’s cool

    Yeah, it’s pretty good isn’t it?

    I prefer reading stuff than listening to it

    Absolutely.

  11. I prefer the visual medium.

  12. Seamus, on July 4th, 2019 at 3:11 PM Said: Edit Comment
    I would doubt there is anything in it that I probably didn’t already know and I honestly can’t be bothered listening to another of your videos. It isn’t an unwillingness to learn. It is an unwillingness to listen to nonsense (which 95% of your videos are). And I largely lost any and all will to sift through them to find the 5% that aren’t complete horseshite.

    Then you choose to remain ignorant and assume rather than investigate…. it explains a lot of your perception.

  13. The video explains an important piece of history….. an area you all need to improve in.

  14. “The video explains an important piece of history”

    What important piece of history? The writing of a poem?

    “Then you choose to remain ignorant and assume rather than investigate…. it explains a lot of your perception.”

    Because I don’t believe you bollocks? Tell me again about that conspiracy theory of American schools?

  15. why don’t you watch it learn…… but then again some people are unteachable.

    Your one of those people that looks and the cover a book never opens it and thinks he knows the book.

    sad

  16. Because your videos tend to be boring, biased crap.

  17. your loss….. but it’s your right to stay comfortable in your ignorance.

  18. Not ignorance. After all I went through a proper education system instead of your “Marxist” one.

  19. The video explains an important piece of history….. an area you all need to improve in.

    I suppose it depends which historical narrative you’re listening to. You didn’t like being reminded of the historical fact of the contradictions about all men being born equal and having an unalienable right to life in the Declaration of Independence.

  20. Seamus take a lesson from today…. read the declaration… listen to the lesson above and you’ll understand why my people are in America not Ireland or Italy.

    The people of the US declared their independence and SIGNED THEIR NAMES pledging their Lives, Fortunes, and HONOR to achieve it and no one donned a ski mask.

  21. The reason your people are not in Ireland or Italy have absolutely nothing to do with the conditions in America. The reason your people are not in Ireland or Italy were due to the conditions in Ireland and Italy at the time.

    “The people of the US declared their independence and SIGNED THEIR NAMES pledging their Lives, Fortunes, and HONOR to achieve it and no one donned a ski mask.”

    Was that before or after the raped their slaves?

  22. You didn’t like being reminded of the historical fact of the contradictions about all men being born equal and having an unalienable right to life in the Declaration of Independence.

    Once again if you knew history you’d know how stupid that statement is.

    Look you so called Irish most of which who don’t live in Ireland didn’t win your Independence because you did it wrong…. we did it right.

    We are the worlds Beacon you’re the Wests SHAME.

  23. Why my people are in America not Ireland or Italy.

    I’d say probably for similar reasons to people attempting to cross America’s southern border today. I know in the case of Ireland for many it was an attempt to escape poverty and starvation.

  24. //it’s a history lesson video….. try learning a little….//

    //The video explains an important piece of history….. //

    I don’t know much about the historical incident, but know enough to guess that your video, Patrick, is full of inaccuracies and general myth.

    First of all, the guy talks of the “colonists” and the “colonies” resisting British oppression. But this wasn’t part of the American war of independence, the battle took place in the war of 1812 when there were no colonies because the United States had been in existence for 35 years.

    He also talks, in a voice full of schoolyard pathos, about the “entire British war fleet” of “hundreds” of ships bombarding the fort.

    You may find it hard to imagine, but the 1812 war was before the days of TV and mobile phone and Farcebook. The only way the Royal Navy could have summoned ships from, say, Florida to join it would be by sending a ship back to England and then getting an order to take to the ships in Florida before returning with them to Baltimore, a total journey time of over 4 months for sailing ships of the day. The same for the rest of the Royal Navy scattered across the western world. It could not have been as described.

    I’ve just checked and instead of the “hundreds of ships” of the video, the British has only 19 ships at the battle. Also, far from the merciless bombardment described, most of the British artillery was inaccurate (as cannon firing from floating boats always was at the time) and most fell short of the target. As as result, the supposedly massive bombardment managed to kill only four people in the densely populated fort, (including a black and a woman, who were probably still looking for those unalienable rights). The British on the other hand lost over 300 men killed.

    I also don’t believe the story of the guy running up and down between the deck and the hold were all those prisoners were supposed to be held. That just isn’t credible and was put there as extra pathos for people like Patrick to feel good about.

  25. Once again if you knew history you’d know how stupid that statement is

    Are you denying that the Founding Fathers were slave owners and the inalienable right to life was limited?

  26. Pat just because we don’t watch your propaganda doesn’t mean we don’t know it’s content

    Your people are in amurica for the same reason the Guatemalan are trying to cross the border they were economic refugees

  27. Unless your relatives were the transported criminals that populated much of early amurica

  28. //Unless your relatives were the transported criminals that populated much of early amurica//

    Maybe that’s them being taken on board in the picture above……..

  29. look I love the fact that you’ve all become psychic and know what’s in something that you refuse to watch, it’s typical of people with a lack of intelligence.

    I start praising MY COUNTRY the greatest Country on the Planet on it’s birthday and both my country and I are attacked for it.

    I could get angry, but why bother I’ve grown used to casting pearls before swine.

  30. “I start praising MY COUNTRY the greatest Country on the Planet on it’s birthday and both my country and I are attacked for it.”

    Your country isn’t the greatest country on the planet. By pretty much every measurable statistic.

    https://www.mic.com/articles/121660/7-reasons-the-united-states-is-the-greatest-country-in-the-world

  31. Happy July 4th Patrick! Don’t let the maroons get you down!

  32. Unfortunate choice of language Charles:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)

    So yes Patrick. Don’t let those slaves and their descendants get you down. So much easier for you to pretend it didn’t happen.

  33. Happy 4th of July to you my brother.

    and that’s all they are is maroons….. 😉

  34. Seamus, it’s from a cartoon when Pat and I were kids.

  35. Seamus……

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NYFq7ZJg4c

  36. “Once again if you knew history you’d know how stupid that statement is.”

    Pat, how exactly is Paul wrong it what he states?

    I’ve long argued that the USA has, on paper, the best system of government in the world. That said, the lofty ideals have on countless occasions not been lived up to. Paul’s point about the founding fathers being slave owners is factually correct, are you disputing this?

    “Look you so called Irish most of which who don’t live in Ireland” didn’t win your Independence because you did it wrong…. we did it right.”

    A few points

    How is Paul “so called Irish”? The man was born and bred in Ireland that makes him as Irish as Irish can be.

    His place of domicile does not change his nationality

    “didn’t win your Independence because you did it wrong…. we did it right.”

    Oh boy! This is going to be a long one.

    Are you really that naive to believe that statement or are you just reacting emotionally?

    I don’t have the time to go through everything but a few points.

    You are comparing apples and oranges.

    The majority of Irish people voted for Sinn Fein in the 1918 election. Had there been an Ireland wide vote independence would have won in a landslide. Unlike America Ireland had a large minority of planted Protestant population totally loyal to the British crown. The Tory party had control of the House of Lords that were able to stop Home Rule on a number of occasions.

    The Tan War was a David and Golliath situation were the Irish were at serious military and material disadvantage. We didn’t have the French come to help us unlike America.

    Even after the Tan War that led to talks the British artificially created a Protestant state because the old Ulster province had too many Catholics for a secured Protestant majority.

    Your attitude displays a distinct lack of both knowledge and the subtle distinctions between both conflicts.

  37. America isn’t the greatest country on the planet – that plaudit is jointly earned by the UK and ROI of course, but Patrick is definitely the GREATEST American on the planet and so is Charles and Phantom, and Mahons, and Patty,and Daphne….

    Have a great day Y’all 🙂

  38. Charles

    I am aware of Buggs Bunny’s use of it. However considering that Patrick is trying to pretend that the founding fathers of the United States weren’t slave owners I was drawing it back to an earlier conversation.

  39. Chris with you I would gladly have the conversation of why I am angry at my fellow Irish Catholics and the way history unfolded.

    I don’t know if you remember but we actually had the conversation about 15yrs ago. It was the conversation that made you one of the voices I respect and that this site gave me the opportunity to speak to.

    I am for the most part just having fun picking on the peanut gallery as I celebrate the 4th.

  40. Bless you Colm

  41. I’ve never denied they were slave holders. What I said was none of you know the history of the slave issue and how it relates to our founding documents.

    I do.

  42. Thank you Colm!

  43. If anyone would like to discuss the slave issue the reason for the 3/5s the battle that was fought during the writing of the constitution I’ll be glad to anytime.

  44. Chris with you I would gladly have the conversation of why I am angry at my fellow Irish Catholics and the way history unfolded

    Why only with Chris? Chris and I have very similar politics and political history.

    I’ve never denied they were slave holders. What I said was none of you know the history of the slave issue and how it relates to our founding documents.

    I wasn’t speaking about the nuances of the slave issue. I was specifically referring to the fact that ‘all men being born equal’ and ‘the inalienable right to life’ cited in the DOI are contradictory to the realities of the time. This is historical fact.

    As for the greatest country on earth. I’m sure we can all agree unamimously that the EU is the greatest country on earth.

  45. Today however is a day for hooting, hollering, firing of cannons, fireworks, barbeque and thanking god for the United States of America.

    Drop to your knee an give thanks because without us you’d all be either subjects of russia or germany…. and germany reconquered western europe in the name of the eu them and the vichy scum…..

    So you are welcome. 😉

  46. Nice ducking of the issue. It isn’t the 3/5ths that is the problem (which was about given more voting power to slave owning states). Can you explain why slave owner, a man who raped his slave, impregnating her on at least five occasions, wrote “we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”? Where were Sally Hemmings’ God-given unalienable Rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

    Why did his victims not deserve their liberty? How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?

  47. Paul there is nothing I won’t discuss with you.

  48. nice hat tip to Dr. Johnson..

  49. Jefferson was one of the greatest minds of the age, yet he was a human man of his time with deep flaws.

    You’ve placed yourself as the person casting the first stone…. I take it you have no sins

  50. Cheers Charles. He said it better than any of us ever could have.

  51. My Nations history is not some rosy picture of peace love and harmony. It is bloody, viscous and brutal, yet it still outshines every other nation on the planet.

  52. “You’ve placed yourself as the person casting the first stone…. I take it you have no sins”

    I have sins. Slavery and rape aren’t amongst them.

    “Jefferson was one of the greatest minds of the age, yet he was a human man of his time with deep flaws.”

    And? You are celebrating him and his works today. You regularly say that he and his views are relevant in modern society. And that the law should show deference to his opinions and those of his generation. And yet here he, in his most famous work, in the major thing he is remembered for, he lies repeatedly.

    “My Nations history is not some rosy picture of peace love and harmony. It is bloody, viscous and brutal, yet it still outshines every other nation on the planet.”

    And if you want to celebrate what your nation is founded on then don’t have a barbecue. Don’t have a parade. Go find a black girl and rape her.

  53. The concept of the US was an incredibily noble one but the nobility should also be accepted with its flaws, warts and all

    As I said in an earlier comment, I constantly suprised at the gulibility of Americans to be taken in with mawkish schmaltz.

    Paul there is nothing I won’t discuss with you.

    Very gracious Pat.

  54. Seamus I pity you, such jealousy. Envy is a Sin

  55. I’m

  56. Nothing envious about it Patrick. You honestly believe that the views of an 18th century slave owner who raped his slaves should dictate policy in the 21st century. Why would anyone be envious of that?

  57. 😉

  58. My Nations history is not some rosy picture of peace love and harmony. It is bloody, viscous and brutal, yet it still outshines every other nation on the planet.

    Just wait until we get our federal EU. Then we’ll see who’s boss.

  59. Seamus, on July 4th, 2019 at 5:13 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Nothing envious about it Patrick. You honestly believe that the views of an 18th century slave owner who raped his slaves should dictate policy in the 21st century. Why would anyone be envious of that?

    You want to condemn the mans works because he was a man of his time…. funny you don’t hold others to that standard.

    You don’t condemn the cause that the bloody murderers of the IRA were attempting to achieve. You conveniently can separate the blood they spilled from the goal of united independent Ireland…

    But can’t with jefferson.

    pathetic

  60. “You want to condemn the mans works because he was a man of his time…. funny you don’t hold others to that standard.”

    I don’t want to condemn his works, nor have I. I want to leave them in the time frame of when they were written. They are 18th century views written by an 18th century man. And it should be left at that. You are the one who feels that the something shouldn’t be allowed to happen because slave rapers said so hundreds of years ago.

    I hold people to the same standards, even my own people. I have condemned the IRA’s methods in the past, and will again the future I’m sure. Condemning those people and their methods doesn’t condemn the cause. However I don’t celebrate the IRA or hold them up as models for how modern governments should act.

  61. Actually Pat and his family have nothing to do with slavery. That would be my family, way back of course. Though DNA research, I’ve discovered that I’m related to black people from about the 1780ies.

  62. Nor do I hold the founders up and praise them for slavery Seamus you call Jefferson a Slave rapist.

    I call him a : President of the United States, Vice President of the United States, Secretary of State doing the Louisiana Purchase doubling the size of the country, and one of the chief architects of the worlds best government system. Not to mention that on of the hardest things Franklin had to do was to keep Jefferson’s views of anti-slavery under control as to not upset a large group of other constitutional delegates.

  63. which company did you use charles?

  64. Pat, ancestry.com

  65. been thinking about the genetic history thing…. was it worth it?

  66. He was a President of the United States, a Vice President of the United States, a Secretary of State of the United States … and a Slave owner and a rapist. He was a man of the 18th century. His views should be kept there. Do you not agree?

    “one of the chief architects of the worlds best government system”

    The American system of governance is appallingly bad at achieving good government. Which is why it breaks down every couple of years.

  67. His views should be kept there. Do you not agree?

    No, I don’t agree. Jefferson, like my slave holding ancestors, are part and parcel of the American family. Yes, they did bad things from time to time, but also great things. Perspective is the key. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water as they say.

  68. Except the baby, in this case, is part and parcel of the bathwater. Why should Jefferson’s views on anything really matter in the modern day? By modern standards he is an appalling human being. A truly evil man. By the standards of his day he was brilliant. And so his contribution to society should be noted through that. But why should government not be allowed to do a, b or c just because some 18th century rapist thought they shouldn’t do it?

  69. Pat, I enjoy genealogy. But I’ve had second thoughts about putting my DNA into the public domain. I’ve been meeting cousins from affairs I didn’t know i had, am related to black people, etc.

  70. Seamus, until we come up with something better, which I doubt, Jefferson’s voice is still heard today. Do we have anyone today that is more brilliant than Jefferson that could pass an angel’s purity test? I doubt it.

  71. I’ve been meeting cousins from affairs I didn’t know i had

    You didn’t know you had the affairs? Jesus, you must’ve been really gone at the time.

    (You may want to reword that Charles 😉 )

  72. from affairs I didn’t know i had,

    Not MY affairs, for God’s sake! lol

  73. “Do we have anyone today that is more brilliant than Jefferson that could pass an angel’s purity test? I doubt it.”

    There are people who live and work in the 21st century. Who recognise the problems of the 21st century and pose solutions to those 21st century problems. So why should a 21st century solution to a 21st century problem not be allowed simply because an 18th century slave rapist thought it was a bad idea?

  74. “Do we have anyone today that is more brilliant than Jefferson that could pass an angel’s purity test? I doubt it.”

    There are people who live and work in the 21st century. Who recognise the problems of the 21st century and pose solutions to those 21st century problems. So why should a 21st century solution to a 21st century problem not be allowed simply because an 18th century slave rapist thought it was a bad idea?

  75. What 21st century problem…..?

  76. Actually, the Founder’s in their wisdom, put into the Constitution the idea of the Article V Convention of the States. If we had the mind to we chuck the whole system of government and replace it, we could do it. It’s not going to happen though.

  77. We have roughly 2000 years of accessible history and the theme that runs through it all is humans are cruel viscous animals that will take advantage of his fellow humans.

    Our system is the best yet created to protect against that. And yes it was created by slave holders and no one has been able to hold a candle to their creation.

  78. Economic stimulus, in light of international competition; the collapse of the banks in 2007; inner city gun violence; gay marriage; abortion; international wars; terrorism and how to combat it; universal healthcare; public education etc…

    None of these things existed at the time of Jefferson. Why should he, and his views, get to control what the government does in response to them?

    “Actually, the Founder’s in their wisdom, put into the Constitution the idea of the Article V Convention of the States. If we had the mind to we chuck the whole system of government and replace it, we could do it. It’s not going to happen though.”

    Because the sensible thing to do is to ignore the actual beliefs of the founders of the United States on subject a, b or c and simply, through judicial review, update the constitution for the modern day.

  79. We are working on it Charles….

    Article V of the U.S. Constitution gives states the power to call a Convention of States to propose amendments. It takes 34 states to call the convention and 38 to ratify any amendments that are proposed.

    https://conventionofstates.com/

  80. update the constitution for the modern day.

    That’s what SCOTUS does, and not very well. See Roe v Wade. The founders put that Article V power into the hands of the People, just where it belongs.

  81. “Our system is the best yet created to protect against that. And yes it was created by slave holders and no one has been able to hold a candle to their creation.”

    Your system doesn’t work. It has consistently produced poor government and stalled government. Since 1976 there have been 22 funding gaps of the US Government, with 10 resulting in employees stopping work. 22 times were the government literally ran out of money because your politicians couldn’t get their shit together and get a bill passed. That’s pretty much once every two years or once every Congress.

    The American system of government is not very good. President led countries tend to be poor. Adversarial systems tend to be poor. Symmetrical bicameralism is a disaster. Politicisation of the rule of law.

    Consensual, parliamentary democracies overwhelmingly produce far better government than the US system. So Germany, the Scandinavian countries for example, produce far better government than the US (or UK or Ireland) do.

  82. Ah yes, Germany is the beacon of light to the word when it comes to governing. MY arse! We in the States are at 243 years and counting.

  83. None of these things existed at the time of Jefferson. Why should he, and his views, get to control what the government does in response to them?

    Because they designed a system that dictates who should be dealing with those issue and who should have no say…. and guess what?

    It’s the Law of the Land.

    If my fellow countrymen no longer want to follow the beliefs of a bunch of old slave holders there is a system in place to change it.

    It’s called Amending the Constitution. It’s been done 27 Times…..

    I don’t see anyone proposing any…. so until they do we follow the system designed by old white slave owners.

  84. “That’s what SCOTUS does, and not very well. See Roe v Wade. The founders put that Article V power into the hands of the People, just where it belongs.”

    They often do it better than if they didn’t do it. I also think that it is why the US Supreme Court is best served having a moderate as the 5th judge. The 5th judge effectively decides the Court’s controversial decisions. So Kennedy, O’Connor, Byron White etc… have been the 5th judge for the last few decades and all have broadly been moderate. In a moderate court the US moves in pace with the majority of public opinion (when it was opposed to gay marriage so was the court, when it was in favour of gay marriage so was the court). A conservative court keeps the law behind public opinion, a liberal court keeps it in front of public opinion. It is why the Warren court was poor on issues like Roe v Wade. It is also why the Kavanaugh nomination to replace Kennedy was an act of constitutional vandalism.

  85. “Ah yes, Germany is the beacon of light to the word when it comes to governing. MY arse! “

    Since it constituted its current system (1949) it pretty much has been.

  86. The American system of government is not very good. President led countries tend to be poor. Adversarial systems tend to be poor. Symmetrical bicameralism is a disaster. Politicisation of the rule of law.

    Consensual, parliamentary democracies overwhelmingly produce far better government than the US system. So Germany, the Scandinavian countries for example, produce far better government than the US (or UK or Ireland) do.

    lmao…. man that’s rich

  87. “It’s the Law of the Land.”

    Law is based on what is written and the interpretation of what is written. It rarely is as clear cut (especially in terms of the US constitution) of saying you can do a, but you can’t do b. It is open to interpretation. You want to give greater weight in that interpretation to 18th century slavers, while I want to give greater weight in that interpretation to modern voices.

  88. “lmao…. man that’s rich”

    Name a single thing that is incorrect in it.

  89. Well I’m off to celebrate liberty and freedom. Smell ya later! 😉

  90. Enjoy Charles….

    Yeah your governments are doing a great job, ignoring the peoples votes, flooding you with refugees, no ability to defend yourselves, feed yourselves, or fuel yourselves… lol

    yeah great job

  91. I did all my outside barbecue chores I am not serving the food at any of the charities this year. I got the ice tubs filled with beer and soda, the coals are cooking in the grill, the umbrellas and lawn chairs are out and life is good.

  92. “Yeah your governments are doing a great job, ignoring the peoples votes, flooding you with refugees, no ability to defend yourselves, feed yourselves, or fuel yourselves… lol”

    How about you learn to read?

    One of the governments I criticised for poor government was the UK government. The other government I criticised (in addition to the US) was the Irish government. Both are poor forms of government (the Irish system is even worse than the American one). And surely on the other thread you were bragging about how immigrants were coming to the United States. Surely your government is failing to stop them as well.

    Also what votes are being ignored? The Clinton ones?

    And show me were any country in Europe, never mind the likes of Germany, or the Scandinavian countries, are unable to feed or fuel themselves? Last time I checked on that last point the US imports more oil than any other country on the planet.

  93. Also what votes are being ignored? The Clinton ones? Brexit

    Surely your government is failing to stop them as well. We building a Wall

    And show me were any country in Europe, never mind the likes of Germany, or the Scandinavian countries, are unable to feed or fuel themselves? Last time I checked on that last point the US imports more oil than any other country on the planet.

    Not one of your nations grows enough food to feed it’s people, not one of your nations has a military that can defend their people without nukes, germany is a fuel puppet of russia, and the US EXPORTS more oil than any nation in the world if we stopped buying however from others their economies would collapse and all the people would starve… ask venezuela.

    We can feed ourselves, defend ourselves, and not only fuel ourselves but we could stop purchasing and flood every market in the world with both our oil and LNG collapsing the rest of the worlds economy.

  94. Not one of your nations grows enough food to feed it’s people, not one of your nations has a military that can defend their people without nukes

    Where do you get those ridiculous assumptions from?

  95. We can feed ourselves, defend ourselves

    Your food is GMO poison and your border is open and being invaded

  96. Your food is GMO poison

    Never worry, you’ll be having it in Britain soon enough.

  97. Symmetrical bicameralism is a disaster. Politicisation of the rule of law.

    Seamus, you’ve piqued my interest. One of the downfalls of the US system of government as explained by Washington himself was the insertion of “factions” which he thought to be detrimental to the body politic.

    In your opinion, does bicameralism promote faction or the other way around.

  98. Symmetrical bicameralism doesn’t necessarily promote factions. Politics ultimately produces factions. So even countries with asymmetrical bicameralism, or even unicameralism, will have factions. What they won’t have is stagnation because of those factions. In most countries there is asymmetrical bicameralism, where one chamber is dominant and the other is secondary. So the Bundestag is dominant over the Bundesrat. The House of Commons is dominant over the House of Lords. The Dáil is dominant over the Seanad. It largely doesn’t matter massively (and certainly doesn’t lead to the sort of paralysis that the US sees) if different factions control the two chambers (which does tend to happen). The German government will have a majority in the Bundestag and normally won’t in the Bundesrat. The British government will (normally) have a majority in the House of Commons and, at least since 1998, won’t have in the House of Lords. The Irish Government will (normally) have a majority in the Dáil and often won’t have a majority in the Seanad. And it doesn’t cause the sort of paralysis that the US sees when the House of Representatives and the Senate have different parties in the majority.

    So it isn’t so much that symmetrical bicameralism causes factionalism but does cause problems because of those factions. If the House, the Senate and the Presidency are all controlled by the same party (with the same factionalism) you will get a much smoother operation of government. Change anyone of those three and you start to run into problems.

  99. By politicisation of the rule of law I was speaking primarily of the very partisan nature of judicial appointments in the United States. I can’t think of another country off the top of my head where the appointment of judges is so partisan political as it is in the United States.

  100. We, meaning the US government, has tried to replicate our form of government onto several Central American countries to no avail. It’s as if the people there don’t have the learned prerequisites for the presidential, bicameral system. Rule of law is lacking.

    Any thoughts as to why this is so?

  101. Presidential systems are appalling bad ideas, and overwhelmingly tend to lead to dictatorships in less democratic countries. They tend to be unstable and at the first sight of problems they invest far too much power into a single individual. There are 23 countries that are listed as being stable democracies since 1950 (have held democratic, not dictatorships for the entire time). 20 are parliamentary democracies, 1 is semi-presidential democracies, and 2 are presidential.

    In times of crisis most parliamentary democracies have a (normally) ceremonial head of state who can at least in theory exercise emergency powers. This results in times of crisis at least two potential people to exercise those powers (the Head of Government and the Head of State). In a presidential democracy the HoG and the HoS are the same person. That counter balance doesn’t exist.

    The presence of the rule of law (with a strong judicial review mechanism in the courts), and centuries of procedure and precedent, has probably been what has prevented America from becoming a dictatorship. That being said the Imperial Presidency edges a wee bit too close for comfort. That Presidents (including both Trump and Obama) are increasingly finding ways to bypass Congress is also increasing the potential for an American dictatorship.

    For what it is worth I don’t imagine there will be an American dictatorship. But I also wouldn’t be out of my mind shocked if it occurred.

  102. In what Central American companies did we try that

  103. Seamus, why do you think (briefly if you like) Ireland has a poor form of government?

    Your complaint about other set-ups seems to be that the upper house interferes in government too much. But if it interfers too little (as in the asymmetrical systems you talk about), it’s a redundant waste of money.

    The Seanad in fact hasn’t blocked a piece of legislation in over half a century and doesn’t have a great record in finding flaws in legislation. It passed the Bank Guarantee Scheme without a single amendment.
    But still the Irish people are fond of the upper chamber, even if the reasons they rejected its abolition were a bit misplaced: there can be no fear of a power grab when the Seanad has so little power to grab anyway. But it does provide a good platform for alternative issues and debate and it is IMO a valuable interface between public opinion and government.

  104. The Seanad is a waste of time, resources and breathable air. I would not keep it. The Seanad is symbollic of most upper chambers throughout the world. It is there because it is there. It has no benefits or reason for being there but it has always been there so we’ll keep it.

    Broadly speaking in terms of the weakness of the Irish governance system is the lack of any actual checks and balances. The weakness of the American system is too many. The weakness of the Irish is not enough.

    I’ll try to be brief (which will be tough as I wrote my entire dissertation on the subject). Ireland is a half way house between two major systems of parliamentary governance (the Westminster system and the Consensual system). For ease the Westminster system is broadly what the have in the UK (though ironically the UK has eased away from a ‘pure’ Westminster system in recent years – think of it more of how the UK was governed 50 years ago) and the Consensual system is broadly what they have in Germany. Ireland is smack right between the two (and instead of having the benefits of both it has the negatives of both without many of the positives).

    The Single Transferable Vote system creates neither strong party support (the Republic’s two party vote [the vote combined of its two main parties] is tiny compared to the two party vote in most other countries) nor particularly obvious coalitions. In most other countries one party will either win a majority (or close enough to it) to govern properly or there will be natural coalition blocks. There are neither in the Republic.

    The level of localism (also caused by the STV system) harms the overall system as too many local TDs are elected as the representative for that particular county (or that particular part of that particular county) rather than as national representatives aimed at good governance. Which is good if you want your TD to write to the government to get Mrs Miggin’s boiler fixed but pretty poor when you want them to be a national government and vote for national legislation.

    Party systems tend to be stronger in Consensual systems than in Westminster systems. Deputies tend to not vote against the party whip in Germany (and it is very controversial when they do it) yet in Westminster systems an MP can rebel on an almost chronic level without anyone really batting an eye-lid at it. In Ireland it is like the Consensual systems. Party rebellions are rare and are harshly dealt with when they happen (Peadar Tóibín for example).

    On the flip side Consensual systems tend to be more, well, consensual. The government gets together with the opposition and hashes out a compromise. This obviously doesn’t happen in a Westminster country.

    So in a Westminster system the Government will try to ram through their legislation, using their parliamentary majority, and are largely kept in check by the willingness of their own MPs to oppose it.

    In a Consensual system the Government will try to keep everyone on board and achieve a compromise. And then their MPs will be expected to back that compromise come hell or high water.

    In the Republic the Government will try to ram through their legislation, using their parliamentary majority, and aren’t subject to the same check from their own TDs. Their own TDs tow the line.

    A good government is one where the government is able to govern, but the opposition is able to oppose. A good government should be able to get its reasonable business through, but not be able to run roughshod over any and all reasonable opposition. If the government is too weak to legislate then that is bad for society. If the government is too strong to even back down in the face of legitimate opposition then that is bad for society.

  105. Great stuff. Thanks for that.

    I wonder how much of the problems of the STV system and the lack of obvious coalitions you mentioned is due to the unusual dichotomy in Irish politics, which to an outsider appears very vague and fuzzy – Is is the small-farmers party vs the big-farmer party or the dark green against the pale green – but is all the more bitter and entrenched than other systems where the divide is along ideological lines. I’ve often wondered what would have happened had Labour, when it was strong in the 1960s and 70s, refused to enter a coalition and left FF and FG to work together to govern the country and let the people see how similar they are after all. Also, how different it would be if Ireland had the FPTP system.

    But the list system in places like Germany also has big problems. The localism you complain about is totally absent, which at the best of times is bad enough but in difficult times leads to great resentment at “the powers that be” and the lack of a sense of democratic representation. It’s no wonder that members of the Bundestag rarely rebel when it was the party that gave them (or most of them) their seats in the first place. I’d imagine MdB toe the party line more than TDs do.
    It also means apparatchniks like Martin Schulz of the SPD and Ursula von der Leyen of the CDU (a post on her yesterday) can move up the party ranks to the top jobs in the country and the EU without ever been tested for popular support.

    Also, the “two main parties” all over Europe are seeing huge drops in support, regardless of the voting or political system. In Germany they now manage just about half the popular vote (51 pc) between them, according to the latest general election polls. The days of one party winning a majority of seats or of natural coalition blocks are now gone, I’m afraid.

  106. I think the worst decision taken in recent years politically was the decision of Eamon Gilmore to enter into coalition in 2011. Fianna Fáil were in the death throes. If he had refused to enter into government he would have become the Leader of the Opposition and could have pressed on at the next election and presented the first centre-left alternative government in the history of the state.

    His failure to do that however left Micheál Martin (who apparently is now a paedophile according to Leo Varadkar) as leader of the opposition and Gilmore in a not particularly popular government (especially with his core voters). It allowed Fianna Fáil to rehabilitate themselves while it has largely destroyed the Labour Party for a generation.

    But yes a certain amount of it is our strange politics (the two main parties are both right wing) combined with intense localism (don’t care if he is a good TD or not but he’s a good lad and I’ve had a pint or two with him) thrown together with the STV system creates a ludicrous hotchpotch of problems.

    “It’s no wonder that members of the Bundestag rarely rebel when it was the party that gave them (or most of them) their seats in the first place. I’d imagine MdB toe the party line more than TDs do.”

    Half the Bundestag reps are constituency representatives. The Germans use the Mixed Member system so half are constituency and half (slightly more due to überhangmandat). But yeah I think they do. To be fair I think that is part of it – the parties get to pick their representatives and so the representatives “owe” their position to the party.

    “Also, the “two main parties” all over Europe are seeing huge drops in support, regardless of the voting or political system. In Germany they now manage just about half the popular vote (51 pc) between them, according to the latest general election polls. The days of one party winning a majority of seats or of natural coalition blocks are now gone, I’m afraid.”

    Absolutely. The two party vote is down everywhere (and is going even worse in Britain after a surprising rally in 2017). But in many places there are two natural coalitions, or in the absence of natural coalitions taking a majority there is a willingness for the two main parties to go into government with each other.

    The major challenge to the system isn’t so much the two party vote going down but more the increase in the vote for parties outside the two main blocks (primarily the populist right). Most countries have a cordon sanitaire with the far-right and won’t bring them into government (and Austria recently broke with that with predictably hilarious effect). So if Bloc A gets 45% and Bloc B gets 45% and the Nazis get 10% then you have a problem.

  107. In school, we are taught some names and dates regarding our revolutionary war against Mother England, but this does not speak to the heart of the matter. For our independence once meant more than marking a date in history – it described the spirit of the New Man that was born in this New World. We declared our independence because we had been born new, and we could no longer be tied to our mother. The war of independence is as trivial to our nation’s birth as the cutting of the umbilical cord is to the birth of a child.

    Over the course of the 19th century, we grew up on this sacred land and by the Hand of God, our destiny was manifest. We became the greatest engine of creation that the world had ever seen.

    Through purity of purpose and virtue of strength, we conquered the dark armies of this wild land, that it be made free for our progeny that would stretch to the end of time.

    With sword and pistol and horse and wagon, we swept across the vast expanse of this continent, meeting the ocean on the other side.

    We built machines as powerful as ten-thousand horses for men to ride.

    We built monuments and towers that scraped the sky.

    We made a man to fly.

    We became loved and feared across the entire face of the earth, for we were mighty as giants.

    This was our independence. We were independent from binding that had held down mortal men in any age before ours.

    We were the New Man, shaping a New World. We were laying the foundations of an empire that would last 10,000 years.

    But then the Devil came upon us. He whispered in our ear. Dark temptation.

    He promised us things. And things we would have.

    Men of God warned us of the price we would pay. But we would not be swayed.

    The Devil wanted blood to drink, and we poured it out for him all across the body of Old Europa.

    After this unholy sacrifice – millions upon millions of Christians and God’s own prophet, killed by our hand – the Devil smiled wide and he showed his teeth.

    There was a crack and a boom and our nation was lit aflame.

    And God removed from us His blessing.

    The Devil brought dark and savage beasts of the earth to defile the safe places of our children.

    The beasts desecrated our sacred places, which God had blessed, and they turned them rotten.

    The Devil sang songs, which poisoned and corrupted the youth of our nation.

    The Cross of Christ was removed from our children’s schools.

    At the Devil’s command, women rose up against their brothers, fathers and husbands.

    The most vile and satanic of acts were promoted as virtue.

    And then these women, possessed by the spirit of Satan himself, demanded that they be permitted to sacrifice their own children on the alter of Moloch.

    Fed on the blood of these little ones, the Devil gained the strength to pull this entire continent down into Hell itself.

    And that is where we find ourselves today.

    From the South, new monsters come to pick the bones of the corpse of our nation.

    Our children are being defiled by sodomites on an industrial scale.

    They are cutting off their penises, having been taught by the Devil himself.

    Our leader is corrupted, become a friend to Satan.

    And still, the bodies of sacrificed children pile up as the Devil laughs.

    There is only one way out of this.

    Only one way to return our nation to freedom, to break these chains of enslavement to the basest of worldly desires.

    Only one way to cast the Devil back into Hell.

    We must return to God.

    https://dailystormer.name/happy-independence-day/

  108. Indeed, great stuff. We are lucky to have you around these parts Seamus.

    In what Central American companies did we try that

    At the turn of the last century, Phantom, with Panama as a prime example. I’m no expert on the subject, however.

  109. What’s the saying, Seamus, “one president, one vote, one time.” The presidential system does go wrong all over the world. So many turn dictator as you say.

    Great stuff!

  110. you’re a sick man Allan seek help.

  111. Hilarious, psuedo historical, quasi-religious shit.

  112. Charles I think you are wrong it was never democracy the US tried to install but chosen dictators, that’s where the term banana republics come from

  113. E.P, you may be right old man. The US’s history of involvement in Central America is not a good one. It may be better said that we overlaid a facade of democracy in those countries. How can there really be democracy down there without significant land reform for the peasants?

  114. EP

    I don’t think that the US has promoted banana republic for a long time. Not since Reagan, the financier of the death squads anyway.

    Charles

    I know what you’re getting at, and I think I would agree with your intent 99%

    But I would use different words. I Don’t think that replicating our form of government would be a good goal for Central America.

    I think that wealthy gangsters like Sheldon Adelson Have far more power on our foreign policy then any congressman or senator has. The financial power of rich people and corporations here Makes the US a very bad model for any other country.

    We have an electoral college system for presidential selection, which means that the American voters didn’t get their choice selected. Why would we wear such a thing on any other nation?

    Also, our system of government consists of a Senate and the House of Representatives. I think that’s a really bad model, especially for a small country.

    I would support a British type parliamentary system, With a prime minister instead of a president, And extremely strong controls against corporate money in politics.

    But even more than central America needs democracy, they need to destroy the drug gangs. Ontell those games are completely destroyed, nothing gets better down there

  115. Phantom, yes, we are on the same page.

    How was your 4th? The music and fireworks are just getting started down here on the Rio Grande.

  116. So far so good

    I just came back from a barbecue with good friends in a place called East Brunswick New Jersey, In the middle of the state

    I’m heading out to meet some other people in a pub soon.

    I love the four day weekend – some of us, myself included have Friday off as well as Thursday

    Happy fourth to all here

  117. But even more than central America needs democracy, they need to destroy the drug gangs.

    Yes Phantom, but the drug gangs cannot be destroyed. Mexico has shown that over the past decade which has seen hundreds of thousands of deaths in a vain attempt to out-gun the gangs by using the army.

    The gangs can only exist because of prohibition in the USA and Europe. That boosts their profits by many orders of magnitude. The enlightened response is to legalise and regulate drugs. That way, the super-profits earned as a result of prohibition would disappear and a vast criminal empire would be crippled. And vast treasure would be saved on incarceration and futile law-enforcement. And significant taxes could be collected which would fund health programmes for the addicted.

    It’s encouraging to see so many states in the USA legalising cannabis. That’s the first step and it has to be the way to go.

  118. Agreed

    Prohibition of alcohol was the American mafia’s best friend then

    Prohibition of drugs is the multinational mafia’s best friend, now. And it helps prop up terror gangs like hezbollah and the taliban

  119. Banana Republics are so named because the US fruit company, the most powerful company at the time, would order the US government to send in the Marines to change the dictator if he turned out to be not friendly to the company interests

    Predates Reagan by a century

  120. Yes

    We all know that

  121. Well I hope everyone had a great 4th of July

  122. Some interesting comments Allan of course reciting his nazi propaganda is as insulting as usual. Seamus and Noel trying to change this into an Irish post and EP just being EP.

    What cracks me up is the discussion of how our government is a shitty design and not good for anyone else. Well it wasn’t meant for anyone else.

    Our system was designed by genius to be run by idiots. It was purposefully designed to be difficult to get things passed by the government as a whole. The Constitution is written as a RESTRICTION of Government. The Government was hobbled at birth intentionally.

    It took ten years from Declaration to Constitution and that wasn’t because messages were delivered by horse.

    Phantom the Electoral College did not mean that the American voters didn’t get their choice selected The Electoral College guaranteed that the major cities did not get to force their will on the majority of the country.

    The system was designed to restrict government not enable it. The system is designed to guarantee the freedom of the people to engage in commerce anyway they choose without the government being involved unless the commerce is hazardous or detrimental.

    It’s a government designed by people who KNEW governments as they existed were the problem for the people NOT the solution.

    And I repeat governments are the problem for the people NOT the solution.

  123. An interesting and entertaining thread. (Not including Allan’s post, because I didn’t read it.)

    Belated happy 4th to all our American friends.

  124. Patrick,

    Your system wasn’t designed. It was agreed.

  125. Patrick Van Roy, on July 5th, 2019 at 12:01 AM Said:

    you’re a sick man Allan seek help.

    Patrick – our countries are in a bad way, beyond what may even be envisaged…..

    https://cis.org/Bensman/Next-Influx-Entire-Worlds-Poor-and-Dispossessed

    Like the proverbial “bulge in the belly of the snake,” unusually high numbers of non-Latino migrants, obviously not from Central America, are now reportedly passing from Colombia through Panama on their way to the U.S. southern border. Their numbers range to the tens of thousands, whose vanguards we have already seen at the U.S. Southwest Border in recent months: Cameroonians, Ghanaians, Congolese, Haitians, Cubans, and some from the Middle East.

    Word of their successful entries into the United States this year clearly reached home countries because now a swell numbering as many as 35,000 is on an infamous migrant passage through which migrants have long funneled from South America to North America: the Darien Gap.

    The 3rd-world is invading the US

  126. no Allan my country is still just getting started, and we’re in great shape.

  127. Seamus, on July 5th, 2019 at 11:30 AM Said: Edit Comment
    Patrick,

    Your system wasn’t designed. It was agreed.

    That doesn’t even make sense Seamus…. something has to be designed before it’s agreed upon.

  128. Not really. It was agreed in the sense there was no overarching design. There were multiple competition ideas which were then mashed together. It wasn’t they compromised to make the best system but one that could be agreed.

  129. Something has to be designed before it’s agreed upon.

    The Brexit referendum might disagree.

  130. Wasn’t the electoral college agreed because of the difficulties of an already geographically divers and isolated populations made direct direct voting impossible due to poor communications infrastructure? I just assumed that was the case

  131. Seamus, you’ve really got me interested in the comparative analysis of different political systems. Is there any reading you could recommend?

  132. The Americans were beating us Brits in the 1812 war, but then the Vietcong joined in on our side…. 😉

  133. Seamus

    Re your 3:59 request to Seamus. Is that because you are looking for something to help with your insomnia ? 😴

  134. Colm, I assume you meant Charles! No, stuff like that is very interesting to me. I’d also love to read his thesis.

    We Americans assume we have the best form of government on the planet. Seamus makes the case that that might not be true. That demands some study on my part.

  135. Charles, serious question

    Why would any American assume That we have the best form of government , When it very intentionally excludes a big chunk of American citizens from having any proper healthcare, When we have such an unnecessarily high incarceration rate, When we have a war machine that gets us into so many completely unnecessary wars, When corporations and rich people Have a huge disproportionate influence on the political process

    What’s so great about it

    The only thing that I believe that America has much better than all the other countries is speech rights

    On many other things, we should be a little more humble and learn from countries that have got health, mass transit, And 1 million other issues better than we do

  136. Phantom, because we are taught from children that America is the shining city on the hill. I’d still make the statement that we are the greatest on earth at the present time as evidenced that people will risk their and their children’s lives to get here.

    However, Seamus has got me thinking that just because we are the greatest at this point in history doesn’t mean that we can’t look at other forms of government for best practices and emulate them. Germany may have something to teach us.

    A final Thought. America is 1000X greater than our government. Our country has so much to offer that has nothing to do with Washington.

  137. To me, there’s nothing wrong with patriotism, whether coming from an American, a Frenchman, or an Irishman. We all have good things about our countries to crow about.

  138. A lot of these are more academic but still very interesting:

    Arend Lijphart: Patterns of Democracy
    Arend Lijphart: Parliamentary Versus Presidential Government
    Michael Mezey: Comparative Legislatures
    Philip Norton: Legislatures
    Philip Norton: Parliaments and Governments in Western Europe

    Most of them are older, but still relevant texts. They also tend to either not be available via the likes of Amazon (or very expensive when they are) so libraries will be your best bet, especially university libraries.

    Some should be available online.

  139. “To me, there’s nothing wrong with patriotism, whether coming from an American, a Frenchman, or an Irishman. We all have good things about our countries to crow about.”

    Absolutely. But for me a true patriot is not one who pretends their country is the best country on the planet. For me a true patriot is someone who recognises their country is flawed and seeks to fix it.

  140. Yes

    Patriotism is good

    But I think that few of those who risk their lives to come here Are coming here because of our supposedly great system or any of that jazz

    They come here because of economic opportunity in 99% of the cases, And because of the free stuff

    There is no free stuff in Haiti or El Salvador. . The Democratic candidates for president have said on world TV that they want even more free stuff for them. I imagine that this has been well reported throughout the world

  141. Colm,

    The Americans were beating us Brits in the 1812 war, but then the Vietcong joined in on our side….

    They got their asses whooped in Vietnam for sure. 😉

  142. Dave

    I think that Vietnam is way way more complicated than that

    And I’ve spent my life studying that war, and I have always felt that the US was the foolish aggressor there

  143. Phantom

    I’m just joking along with Colm.

  144. Emerald Pimpernel, on July 5th, 2019 at 3:13 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Wasn’t the electoral college agreed because of the difficulties of an already geographically divers and isolated populations made direct direct voting impossible due to poor communications infrastructure? I just assumed that was the case

    What happens when you assume…….

  145. I love this crap typical leftist brainwashing and Brain DAMAGE fully on display.

    Phantom, on July 5th, 2019 at 4:33 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Charles, serious question

    Why would any American assume That we have the best form of government , When it very intentionally excludes a big chunk of American citizens from having any proper healthcare, When we have such an unnecessarily high incarceration rate, When we have a war machine that gets us into so many completely unnecessary wars, When corporations and rich people Have a huge disproportionate influence on the political process

    What’s so great about it

    The only thing that I believe that America has much better than all the other countries is speech rights

    On many other things, we should be a little more humble and learn from countries that have got health, mass transit, And 1 million other issues better than we do

    It’s not the governments job to provide Healthcare and even after Obama and the Democrats causing more people to do without we still have the best system in the World. AND NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN DENIED SERVICE whether they could pay or not. Obamacare added 10s of millions to the column of no longer could afford to go to the Doctors thanks to the deductibles. The AMERICAN VA showed exactly what happens when government runs the program… people die waiting.

    High incarceration started July 30, 1965 along with the dismantling of 20% of our populations family structure. 50yrs later our inner cities show the results of that GOVERNMENT interference in our lives.

    Our MILITARY has saved 100s of Millions of lives and our MILITARY has NEVER started a War and the last politician to get us involved with one that we had no right being in was JFK. It was called Vietnam.

    Corporations and rich people will always have influence because the Business of this Country is BUSINESS. If you want them to have less influence Term Limits is the ONLY cure.

    What so great about it…… 2 of our last few Presidents started out in poor families only being raised by their Mother and were able to become the most powerful men in the World.

    And America’s “poor” live in what is considered middle to upper middle class conditions anywhere else in the world with our poor families averaging 2 cars, 3 TVs and 5 cell phones.

    Look you don’t think this country is great that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    Also if other places like GB or a dozen other countries suit you better and do it better Phantom your company has offices all over the world. Transfer…. Leave…. don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out…..

    You have the means, the ability and no wife or kids to worry about there is nothing to keep you here….. so why are you….? Legitimate Question…

  146. Seamus

    Thanks for those recommendations! I chose Arend Lijphart: Parliamentary Versus Presidential Government and was able to get it from Amazon for a paltry $13!

    I’m looking forward to a good read.

  147. were you able to get it on audio books Charles?

  148. Patrick, no, I’m going to have to old school it!

  149. Good Luck….. I know it’s gotta be tough

  150. No need for the weeping meltdown, son. You freaked out about a question addressed to someone else.

    The US political system is no good. It’s corrupt to the core. It doesn’t do what the people want it to do.

    It’s a cautionary tale for other countries, Not a model.

  151. Sounds riveting 🤒

  152. My comment was about the book Charles is about to get stuck into.

  153. As I asked Phantom

    You have the means and the ability to leave the country for good.

    Why don’t you leave?

  154. What a genius

  155. So America sucks….. you can leave, but won’t…. and you don’t have the integrity to say why.

  156. be honest Phantom where could you live better than where you are at ?

    Name the country and then put your ass where your mouth is and move.

    Your company has offices all over the world, you have no immediate family, you fly all over the world now for business I’d bet if you asked the company would transfer you and if not there are other major corporations that would love to have your talent.

    Why stay in a corrupt country with shitty healthcare ?

    or is the simple truth that you’re just full of crap ? Like every other America Sucks leftist loon… who bad mouths how horrible it is yet just can’t ever seem to get themselves to actually act on their “feelings”…..

  157. Take note everyone how he can’t answer…

    He can’t because he’s giving you lip service… he’s pissing down your back and telling you it’s raining.

    America is corrupt, it has shitty healthcare 100 other countries do things better…

    “LEAVE…What are you out of your mind…… ?”

    You are not an honest person Phantom.

  158. //And America’s “poor” live in what is considered middle to upper middle class conditions anywhere else in the world//

    That must be one of the most inane comments ever to appear here, totally dense even by Patrick’s standard.

    Patrick, how do you know how the middle and upper middle class live in other countries?

    You’ve never been anywhere. In Europe people have a higher standard of living, much longer vacations, on average enjoy better healthcare services and the schools here are at least as good or better than in the US. And nobody would end up living in a trailer because he couldn’t pay for medical treatment.
    I’ve met literally hundreds of Yanks living here who would laugh at your nonsense comparision.

    The US certainly has many great things going for it – its economy, the innovation and inventiveness of its people, its enormous cultural output. Like Phantom says, it does some things much better than other developed countries and some things much worse.

    But probably the one thing it does worst of all is politics.

  159. Pat’s Solution to everything is to run away

    After a prolonged weepy Psychological meltdown, of course

  160. Colm, I want to read the book so’s I can talk smart like that there Seamus! 🙂

  161. I’ve never run from nothing in my life son.

    You on the other hand are full of shit…..

    You said America is corrupt, has shitty healthcare, and there are a 100 other countries we can learn from.

    I asked you where it’s better and why since you have the ways and means to leave are you still here ?

    You’re still here because AMERICA is the greatest country on Earth and even though you could live anywhere in the world you would never leave.

    so you’re a Liar who’s just full of crap.

  162. But you can call me a coward….. My name is Patrick Van Roy and I live in Ephrata Pennsylvania…..

    What’s your name ?

    Where do you Live ?

    You lack the Honesty to even be yourself in public.

  163. Seamus, I also bought Philip Norton: Parliaments and Governments in Western Europe for $4 from e-bay. Norton has several that he’s edited in the series, so I’ll see how I like this one first.

  164. Patrick, I downloaded The Anti-Federalist Papers on my phone, but it came through as type not audio! Only 5 bucks and I can start reading tonight, however. I can’t believe I’ve never read them before. Thanks for mentioning them!

  165. Let me explain something to you skippy……..

    FREE SPEECH

    Free Speech means nothing if you don’t have the balls to sign what you write or show your face when you say it.

    There is no difference between YOU and ANTIFA. Calling yourself Phantom is your ANTIFA mask.

    What are you afraid of? Getting Fired…? Why…?

    Are you afraid of someone you know finding out that OMG he has 1 out of 20 conservative views? (the other 19 are all NY Liberal views).

    Are you afraid that someone could threaten you some way….? For What…?
    Are you embarrassed about anything you say….?
    Are you embarrassed about being associated with this site…..?

    You praise America’s Free Speech you say it’s the only thing we do right, yet you lack the balls to practice Free Speech…. Why…?

    You see you may not like my opinions or my views. You may think I’m Crazy, Dangerous, or just Stupid. That’s fine, any and all of you are entitled to hold any of those views…. and you know what ? That’s a good thing, because one of the wonderful things about FREE SPEECH is you or anyone and everyone knows exactly what Patrick Van Roy believes, because I use my FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT.

    You don’t, you’re an ANTIFA Blogger.

  166. ahh it’s important Charles it’s the otherside of the argument. These were prominent voices expressing their unhappiness with the Constitution.

  167. Charles don’t know if you’ve heard of this…..

    VoiceView screen reader

    The VoiceView screen reader is available on Fire tablets and Kindle devices. It provides spoken feedback to describe the actions that take place on your screen.

    VoiceView can be activated from any screen on a Fire tablet by holding the power button down until you hear an alert and then holding two fingers slightly apart on the screen.

    The Kindle Audio Adapter activates VoiceView on Kindle Paperwhite when plugged into the Micro-USB port. Just plug your headphones or speakers into the audio jack on the Kindle Audio Adapter to use your e-reader with an audio interface. To activate VoiceView on a Kindle Device with Bluetooth support, see the setup instructions below.

    https://www.amazon.com/b?node=14100715011

    Bottom of the page.

  168. Patrick’s in a very mellow mood this evening!

  169. did you see the song I put in Pete’s music post…. 😉

  170. Thanks Patrick. I’ll look into that!

  171. hope it helps

  172. Hope you enjoy them Charles. Lijphart and Norton are both pro-parliamentary government but would come at it from the two sides of the issue. Lijphart very much so is pro-consensus democracies, and in more divided societies (like Belgium and Northern Ireland) is pro-consociational democracies. Norton would be more pro-Westminster model (he himself is a sitting member of the House of Lords).

  173. And America’s “poor” live in what is considered middle to upper middle class conditions anywhere else in the world

    The ‘middle to upper class’ where I come from don’t live in cars. Come to think of it, the poor where I come from don’t live in cars.

  174. neither do they here the poor live in the average house which is 2,598 square feet, and they OWN 2 cars, 3 TVs, and 5 cell phones.

  175. The only people living in cars are drug addict democrats in LA, SanFran and Seattle

  176. Average Life expectancy in the UK is well more than two years higher than in the US

    In Canada, Average life expectancy is three years longer than in the US

    In Switzerland, it’s five years longer

    We have a lot to learn from other places

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#item-le_the-u-s-has-the-lowest-life-expectancy-at-birth-among-comparable-countries_2019

  177. so when you moving there?

  178. Patrick,

    So you are saying that the two adults, with two children, earning a combined $24,250 or less, have a house, 2 cars, 3 televisions and 5 phones?

  179. yes

  180. A real patriot recognises the flaws in his country and wants to fix them. A fake patriot pretends his country is already the best. Don’t be a fake patriot Patrick.

  181. Have you any evidence of that?

  182. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-are-living-in-their-vehicles-amid-high-housing-prices/

    Pat, you have absolutely no basis whatsoever for that truly nonsensical comment. Noel is correct, the standard of living, the work / life balance are in general much better in Europe.

    And besides, if what you say about the poor in the US is correct where does that put you in the economic spectrum?

  183. I freely admit my country has massive problems, and I do everything I can to help. I volunteer at homeless shelters and drug and alcohol rehabs.

    Antifa boy just bitches how horrible his country is. He has no ties, and the ways and means to leave.

    He believes these places are better than America, he has never once in 20yrs mentioned doing anything to help improve conditions in his city.

    He is a high ranking member of management in a worldwide company who already spends a large amount of time out of the country… He should move to one of these heavens that are better than America.

  184. The highest rates of opioid addiction by state are in West Virginia, Ohio, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky in that order

    It’s very much a white and rural thing. It’s made worse by the low government services model in say Kentucky and West Virginia – There aren’t enough rehab facilities, And there are long waits to get into them

    The stereotype of drug addiction being a black inner city thing, Has not been true for sometime

  185. that’s spin Paul…..

    I go once a week into the homeless community to provide aid. I speak from first hand knowledge and 30yrs of working to help fix it.

  186. It should also not be said that having a mobile phone is a sign of middle class wealth. Maybe a few decades ago but not now. Phones are generally quite cheap (you can get a relatively simply phone for like £5 a month). And that is also a thing. People here you have two TVs and think of he must have a lot of money. But that is including everything from a 60″ plasma tv to a second-hand cheap old TV. There is also distinctions between the groups in that often many of the people below the poverty line are buying things like this on credit (credit that will eventually run out). An estimated 7 million households in the United States go without food at some point nearly every month just to pay energy costs.

  187. LA in the last year absorbed conservatively 700,000 illegal immigrants.

    None of those tent cities you see have illegals in them. They have drug addicted Americans in them. The over half a million illegals dumped into LA all found housing with no skills, no id’s, and no money.

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

  188. “He should move to one of these heavens that are better than America.”

    Why? A true patriot wouldn’t attack someone for pointing out that there are better places to live than America. A true patriot would look at those places and support the policies needed to turn America into those places.

  189. I suspect you’re the one spinning like a tap Pat. Your empirical observations in a homeless shelter aren’t reflective of a country of over 320 million.

    You’ve no basis whatsoever for such a ridiculous claim.

  190. The US is best at some things, very bad at others.

    We Shouldn’t be afraid to speak about these things.

    In the case of opioids, The highest levels of prescription and illegal abuse are in the Trumper states. That’s not disputable.

    In some of the states, this and other drug abuse ( including alcohol ) has led to a reduction In lifespan, esp in rural areas

  191. Wrong both of you first Seamus I never want America to turn into any of those places because they don’t compare, Antifa Boy says America sucks… I don’t. He has the ability to leave since he’s not doing anything to help he should leave.

    Paul I’ve been working in that community for over 30 years I have a little more knowledge than you think I do.

  192. Yes all is fine in red state America.

    The problem is confined to Democrat ( code word for blacks, latins, Jews wink wink) areas

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/03/07/drugs-are-killing-so-many-people-in-west-virginia-the-state-cant-keep-up-with-the-funerals/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e324729f51c0

  193. Hope you enjoy them Charles.

    Cheers Seamus! It’s been awhile since I’ve gotten my teeth into some good, academic books. Thanks again for the recommendations.

  194. Paul I’ve been working in that community for over 30 years I have a little more knowledge than you think I do.

    I’ve no doubt you do but you’re experience doesn’t equal the story above nor the stats;

    https://projecthome.org/about/facts-homelessness

    Your comments on America’s poor are nonsensical based splely on some subjective notion off the top of your head. America is great at some things and absolutely terrible at others.

  195. “I never want America to turn into any of those places because they don’t compare”

    You are right. They don’t compare. Those other places are far superior.

    “Thanks again for the recommendations.”

    No problem.

  196. Paul, from your homeless link:

    California accounted for more than half of the nation’s unsheltered chronically homeless individuals (53%).

    Whatever California is doing, they need to stop.

  197. I’d say that Cali being the most populated state in the US contributes significantley to that stat Charles.

    You are right. They don’t compare. Those other places are far superior.

    Pat just can’t accept that the US isn’t great at everything and some places are better.

  198. “I’d say that Cali being the most populated state in the US contributes significantley to that stat Charles.”

    Though California only makes up 12% of the population, yet 53% of people with disabilities who have no shelter never mind no home. So something is clearly going wrong there.

  199. “Pat just can’t accept that the US isn’t great at everything and some places are better.”

    Indeed. It is faux patriotism at its worst.

  200. The more social services a state provides for the homeless, the more homeless they attract from other places

    That’s a big part of the problem that California – It has a mild climate, Is an absolute magnet for homeless from other states.

    The same problem exists in New York, Washington State, other places

    You don’t see homeless from NY and CA moving into WV or Mississippi

  201. California is the result of Democrat politics and the results they cause…. Homelessness, Typhoid, TB, and bubonic Plague millions of needles and millions of piles of human feces all over the streets.

  202. It has a mild climate, Is an absolute magnet for homeless from other states

    I’d suggest that’s another highly contributory factor Phantom

  203. That seems to be a bit of a myth.

    https://www.politifact.com/california/article/2018/jun/28/dispelling-myths-about-californias-homeless/

    Myth #1: California’s homeless are from somewhere else — and moved here for the mild weather and social services.

    Reality: Experts say this is one of the most common and inaccurate assumptions about homeless Californians.

    “People when they become homeless, more often than not are from the community in which they’re living homeless,” said Ben Avey, a spokesman with Sacramento Steps Forward, a nonprofit dedicated to ending homelessness in the Capital City. “And they often move to the streets very near where they lived in the past. You may not recognize them. But they are members of your community.”

    Chris Martin, an expert on homeless policy for the nonprofit Housing California, added that the stereotype “is just not true.”

    Martin cited a study from May 2018 by the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority, which found 75 percent of the people on the street in Los Angeles County had a home in that same county before they lost it. It also showed that 65 percent of the unsheltered homeless had lived in that county for at least 20 years. Only 13 percent were from out of state.

    More than 53,000 homeless people, or 40 percent of the state’s total, live in Los Angeles County. That number is up from about 36,000 just six years ago.

  204. To a limited extent, California governments are shipping homeless out of state too.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study

    I can’t possibly see how any one local community or any one state, even a big state like California, can fix this problem within its own borders

  205. Seamus

    —Even if —that’s true, if 13% of Californians homeless are from out of state that’s an extremely huge percentage, an enormous burden on that state’s taxpayers

    But I doubt that is true at all. Absent significant in migration of homeless, There would be no good reason Why economically strong states such as California Would have such a vast numbers of homeless. Which I have seen, in Los Angeles and San Francisco.

    I guarantee you very many of New York City’s homeless are from outside New York City.

  206. Homelessness, typhoid, TB, and bubonic plague

    So the poor in the US don’t live like Kings after all.

  207. It is a huge burden, but doesn’t explain California’s major disproportionate homelessness problem. And for example, in comparison to California, Florida also has substantially lower homelessness (proportionally). And I’d imagine the same sort of things that drive a person to California (or New York) will also drive them to Florida.

    Most likely there is a problem in state (69% of California’s homeless population aren’t sheltered, compared to 35% nationally). There is also a question of whether the differing costs of living by state have a role. A lot of assistance programs, particularly federal ones, have probably don’t take into account that $20,000 in Montana goes a lot further than $20,000 in California.

  208. Florida governments do -not- roll out the welcome mat the way that California does ( relatively )

    I wrote a post about homeless children living in cars in Florida seven years ago. Patty said “ enough of the sob stories “

    http://www.atangledweb.org/index.php?s=Florida+homeless+cars

  209. Please watch the ten minute video I just posted and learn a little about what your talking about….

    Thank You

  210. How about you transcribe it rather than just posting a video?

  211. So the poor in the US don’t live like Kings after all.

    They are not the poor…. they are the addicted and the insane if you don’t know the difference you should learn it.

  212. Seamus, on July 6th, 2019 at 4:36 PM Said: Edit Comment
    How about you transcribe it rather than just posting a video?

    Because I have no feeling in my hands and type with two fingers. It would take me a week to transcribe what I can edit with my software in 20 min.

  213. Fair enough. So give a synopsis of it. The main points. I really hate listening to videos.

  214. Well Seamus the main points are exactly what I have been saying.

    Look I suffer reading all the stuff you guys put up and the things you suggest I should read to get a better understanding of your views.

    I think you can suffer the 10 min and it’s an enjoyable interview Dr Drew is passionate.

  215. I don’t post videos.

  216. They are not the poor…. they are the addicted and the insane if you don’t know the difference you should learn it

    There’s no doubt that addiction and mental problems play a huge part in it but not all of it.

    The poor live in the average house which is 2,598 square feet, and they OWN 2 cars, 3 TVs, and 5 cell phones.

    If that’s the poor Pat where do those who live in trailers come in the economic spectrum?

  217. If Patrick wants to believe that the US is the best country in the world then fair enough, it’s his opinion.

    However, if he’s stating as fact, that us is the best country in the world than that has to be proven, and my past experience with Patrick on this is that he can’t prove it.
    In fact, he fell at the first hurdle because he didn’t even have a metric by which to measure his claim.

  218. watch the video Paul…….

    If that’s the poor Pat where do those who live in trailers come in the economic spectrum?

    the bottom of the poor that won’t take government handouts….. I could live in what’s called Section 8 housing and I could get food stamps…. I won’t.

  219. The bottom of the poor that won’t take government handouts….. I could live in what’s called Section 8 housing and I could get food stamps…. I won’t.

    I’m not speaking specifically about you, I’m speaking generally. Nor am I specifically speaking about homelessness but about your claim of how the poor in the US have a standard of life considered middle class in other countries. Your comment about the American poor living in large bought houses with two cars etc is absolute and utter nonsense Pat.

  220. Your comment about the American poor living in large bought houses with two cars etc is absolute and utter nonsense Pat.

    It’s not as much rubbish as you might think Paul. El Paso County is the 6th poorest county in Texas. You can rent a house for $800 a month and most people throw in at least 2 cars. People are living hand to mouth, that’s true, but they are living. I’ve seen adobe houses with dirt floors with a car parked out front.

    Now there might be 3 or 4 working adults in the house and a bunch of kids, but it’s still better than they had it in Mexico because there is running water.

  221. This is what Pat climed Charles:

    And America’s “poor” live in what is considered middle to upper middle class conditions anywhere else in the world

    Where I come from the middle class don’t rent houses and what you describe above is not a middle class lifestyle rocognisible to me.

  222. it’s nice no middleclass families rent in spain Paul, but I would challenge that and ask you to provide a source besides “the people you know”

    lets look at home sizes also….

    US home size has fallen a little since the recession, to 201 m2 (2,164 ft2) in 2009. UK house size is relatively small at 76 m2 (818 ft2) while Canadian houses are quite big at 181 m2 (1,948 ft2). For China the data only reflects urban properties, which now average 60 m2 (646 ft2)

    At just 15 m2 (161 ft2) a person in Hong Kong has just a quarter of the floor space of the average Australian or American.

    In London they have a new minimum space standard as part of the London Plan. For new flats the minimum standards are 37 m2 (398 ft2) for one person, 50 m2 (538 ft2) for two people in one bedroom, 61 m2 (657 ft2) for three people with two bedrooms, 70 m2 (753 ft2) for four people in two bedrooms and 74 m2 (797 ft2) for four people in three bedrooms.
    Read more at http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house#dDC4S66Lr0LI5A7A.99

    My trailer is 2000sqf…… you live in hovels. Our poor live in an avg row home which is 2500sqf. that’s almost 3 times the size of the avg EU home. and they have 2 cars in the driveway, 3 tv’s and 5 cell phones.

  223. The average American home is 2,164 ft². Yet the average American poor live in a home which is 2,500 ft²?

    How does that happen?

  224. I would challenge that and ask you to provide a source besides “the people you know”

    Fair enough Pat but only after you provide a link to prove your original claim:

    America’s “poor” live in what is considered middle to upper middle class conditions anywhere else in the world

    Pls check mail.

  225. the majority of the poor live in Urban Structures… city housing which is predominantly Row Homes built about 75-100 yrs ago.

    Those homes avg 2500sqf.

  226. So your poor have bigger homes than your rich?

  227. Our rich like yours can live in whatever type of house they want and they aren’t living in the urban section 8 area’s. Nor are they living in “average” housing.

    I can buy a house that’s 2500sqf for 40,000 that’s quite livable hardwood and brick and formica counters.

    I can buy a 2000sqf for 500,000 that’s luxury with marble floors, stone walls and granite counters.

    It’s all about the comfort upgrades.

  228. “It’s all about the comfort upgrades.”

    I would broadly agree, which is why I wouldn’t use square footage of a home as an indication of middle class living. A large floorplan, made of shit materials, in a shit area will be a lot cheaper than a smaller floorplan, made of good materials, in a good area.