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GREEDY NHS FAT CATS

By Pete Moore On July 8th, 2019

Waiting lists for routine surgery have risen by up to 50% in England because senior doctors say they cannot afford to work extra shifts.

Consultants have begun refusing to work beyond their planned hours after receiving unexpected tax bills, following new pension rules in 2016 […]

Consultants who earn more than £110,000 a year faced new limits on how much they could contribute to their pension from 2016. Complex rules mean the charges can be unpredictable if they go over the allowance.

But those near the threshold have few options to avoid the impact, other than reducing their hours, quitting the NHS pension scheme or taking early retirement.

In short, the NHS relies heavily on staff doing overtime. But earning more has incurred higher tax bills. So staff have stopped doing the overtime and patients are suffering. That’s government all over. It controls the NHS and the tax regime, and the result is such a mess that tax-avoiding, fat cat NHS doctors are driving their new Jags to the golf club instead of the hospital.

70 Responses to “GREEDY NHS FAT CATS”

  1. I’m with the Dr’s on this one. Why work harder and harder just for the taxman?

  2. Pete

    How many mandatory additional hours are you willing to work?

    Many doctors work long and stressful hours as it is.

  3. If you think that 110,000 pounds a year doctors are driving ” Jags ” to the golf club, I think you’re very mistaken.

    Esp in London, where housing and everything else is very expensive.

  4. The result is such a mess that tax-avoiding, fat cat NHS doctors are driving their new Jags to the golf club instead of the hospital.

    Pete Moore is now arguing that people shouldn’t withdraw their labour in the free labour market in order for them to have a higher tax bill?

    What kind of forked tongue, voodoo witchcraft is this?

  5. They’re not “tax-avoiding fat-cats” any more than I am, in the sense that if HMRC were to email me with a request for me to voluntaily pay more tax than I legally have to, my reply would be Foxtrot Oscar! And so it is the world over. No, the solution is for the State to have nothing whatsoever to do with the free-market supply of healthcare (or education for that matter) and then the whole problem will resolve itself in an instant.

  6. * voluntarily

  7. “No, the solution is for the State to have nothing whatsoever to do with the free-market supply of healthcare (or education for that matter) and then the whole problem will resolve itself in an instant.”

    Only for four or five hundred other problems to emerge instead.

  8. No, the solution is for the State to have nothing whatsoever to do with the free-market supply of healthcare (or education for that matter) and then the whole problem will resolve itself in an instant.

    Another vote for the Somali Solution.

  9. Think: is there (or has there been) a severe shortage of bread, or tomato ketchup (etc) in the supermarkets? Of course not. Thank God we don’t have a “National Food Service” or we’d all be queuing for months for a loaf of value-brand bread.
    Now of course, there are sometimes shortages in the free market, for a while certain grades of sports tyres were in short supply, but as a consequence prices rise, production then rises and it evens out quite naturally after a while. Not so with a command-economy.

  10. And there is also a group of people who do without in a free market. Who can’t afford the commodity. Now that is fine when you are talking about a Ferrari. Not so fine when you are talking about life saving treatment.

  11. Not the same issue.

    Pete Moore has this argument before.

    And you do notice that no advanced country on the face of the earth has ” no government involvement in healthcare “.

    If Somalia is about the only country that does what you suggest, you may want to do a rethink.

  12. Yeah, such as my mother, condemned to f***ing third-world NHS treatment, tell me about it because I know.

  13. “Yeah, such as my mother, condemned to f***ing third-world NHS treatment, tell me about it because I know.”

    Why didn’t she go private?

  14. In my job, if I don’t strive 100% to give the customer what they want, they can go elsewhere, and I don’t want that because they pay my wages and so I bloody well strive and strive to give the customer the service they WANT.
    In the NHS, Our Glorious NHS, (Alleuiah! Alleee-luuuhaaah!) my mother asks why it takes her 2 months to see a specialist and I say, fire them, and go to a competitor, but oh no, “they’re Angels! They work ceaselessly for the good of all!” (Do they have mortgages and kids to feed? Does this play an part at all in their motivation for turning up at work? Seemingly not, but who can blame her, she relies on Our Glorious Unbiased BBC (Aaaa-leeh-luiaaa!) for her news. It gets tiring….

  15. You do notice that the average life expectancy in the UK is over two years longer than that in the US.

    That’s an enormous variation.

    How is that so if the NHS is so bad

  16. Yeah, such as my mother, condemned to f***ing third-world NHS treatment, tell me about it because I know.

    Brexi, my mother died of lung cancer in 2015 and the three months from she was diagnosed to she was dead she was treated on the NHS and I have nothing but praise for their professionalism, compassion and dedication.

    I know too.

  17. “In the NHS, Our Glorious NHS, (Alleuiah! Alleee-luuuhaaah!) my mother asks why it takes her 2 months to see a specialist and I say, fire them, and go to a competitor”

    Why didn’t she go private?

  18. I too praise the individuals’ professionalism Paul, but that is not my point. My point is that because the NHS monopolises the Healthcare sector in the UK, and because its service is ahem “free” (though not from where my wallet is standing) therefore the private sector is marginalised and prices are artificially high elsewhere. Privatise the NHS completely, and this wouldn’t be the case. Prices would drop and drop across the whole board as companies competed without a tax-funded monolith.

  19. Of course NHS people have mortgages etc. Why do you ask?

    So do police, military, farmers, bus drivers and air traffic controllers.

    We actually have two here who worked in the medical field ( Matt, a physician in the UK, who works for or with the NHS, and Charles, a retired pharmacist for the evil US gummint ). I’d think that their patient’s / client’s care was their highest possible concern. And I’d think that this is the case with the NHS employees generally.

  20. The average premium for UK private health insurance is £1,435 ($1,795) per year. The average premium for US private health insurance is $5,280 (£4,215) per year. So the NHS is clearly not making private sector prices artificially high.

  21. brex

    Some prices would drop I am sure.

    But what of the person with no savings who comes down with cancer or something else that is serious.

    How will a private scheme profit off selling medical care to such a person?

  22. Why didn’t she go private?

    I know what you’re doing there, Seamus. You want me to reply “because she can’t afford to” so that you can point a finger and go “See? See? Private medical care is too expensive and for the “elite” only”.

    But see the point I made above; it’s only too expensive BECAUSE the tax-funded monopoly makes it so. In the absence of that it would not be so. If my mother’s NI contributions had instead been paid to BUPA over the last 40 years she wouldn’t be in this position.

  23. My point is that because the NHS monopolises the Healthcare sector in the UK, and because its service is ahem “free” (though not from where my wallet is standing) therefore the private sector is marginalised and prices are artificially high elsewhere.

    That’s an absolutley abstract (and IMO incorrect) hypothetical Brex. The example of the US shows us that’s not the case.

    For my part, I was very happy to pay for the NHS. The birth of my children alone was worth every penny.

  24. “But see the point I made above; it’s only too expensive BECAUSE the tax-funded monopoly makes it so.”

    Which is bollocks.

    The average premium for UK private health insurance is £1,435 ($1,795) per year. The average premium for US private health insurance is $5,280 (£4,215) per year. So the NHS is clearly not making private sector prices artificially high.

  25. If my mother’s NI contributions had instead been paid to BUPA over the last 40 years she wouldn’t be in this position.

    Judging by what you’re saying about your mother and the NHS if it hadn’t been for the NHS hospital you were born in I don’t think you’d be in the position you’re in either.

  26. “You want me to reply “because she can’t afford to” so that you can point a finger and go “See? See? Private medical care is too expensive and for the “elite” only”.”

    So considering that the NHS increasing the prices costs £1,435, compared to the free market £4,215, why did your mother not go private?

  27. The UK has a private health system that you can participate in. There are a significant number of private hospitals.

    The NHS, while its really big, is not a monopoly.

    I know a number of people who are insured by BUPA ( private insurance )

    https://www.bupa.co.uk/

  28. Again, spurious arguments which only seek to deflect from the economics. If it hadn’t been for my mother’s birth, or for that matter her mother’s (which were far from NHS conditions) then I wouldn’t be here, so what the heck does that have to say about anything? I could have been born (or died) in a toilet; I wasn’t. Proves nothing.

  29. Basic observation: State monopolies in healthcare = appalling, third-world conditions. All the best staff flee to the private sector, quite naturally. Basic observation re free-market supply of anything you like, computers, phones, aircraft: It works.

  30. Ak as Venezuelan about exchanging the basic free-market economy with the shite of socialism. Amswer: Just get me on a raft out of here!

  31. Anyone who thinks the NHS hospitals are third-world conditions has most likely never been to the third-world, hospital or otherwise.

    Do you want to take another crack at the economics? Private healthcare in the UK (with the existence of the NHS) costs £1,435. In the US (without the NHS) it costs £4,215. Why didn’t your mother go private?

  32. brex

    Why do you think that UK life expectancy is so high?

    Are you all just lucky?

  33. Please break down those figures. Do you expect me to believe that my mother presents herself at a BUPA clinic and says “I would like to…” and the receptionist says “Stop right there, that will be exactly £1435 please”. My mother says “But I haven’t even told you what I…” and the receptionist says “No, it doesn’t matter, I just know, it’s exactly £1435”.
    You’re pulling figures out of where the sun doesn’t shine. Let’s have some precise figures.

  34. https://boughtbymany.com/news/article/private-health-insurance-cost-uk/

    The average premium for UK private health insurance is £1,435 per year (source: ActiveQuote). But you might pay much less than that for health insurance depending on the two factors that influence the cost.

    https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/affordable-care-act/much-health-insurance-cost-without-subsidy

    Premiums for individual coverage averaged $440 per month

  35. Brex

    I gave you the web address for bupa.

    You can apply for private insurance right now, and sleep sounder as soon as your application is approved.

    Let us know what the cost is.

  36. …So don’t bulls**t me, socialist. I’ve had all these fake conversations before. I say “I think the NHS should be privati-” and the socialist bullsh***er replies “Ah, so that means you would personally throw ill people onto the street and leave them to DIE in AGONY, well, well, what do you say, can you deny it?” -No, it means nothing of the sort, but they just love shouting cheap slogans rather than arguing a point.

  37. You seem to be the one doing the bullshitting tonight.

  38. brex

    Which nation in your opinion does health care the best?

  39. Phantom, a good question and I don’t know the answer, but in general I admire the USA, it seems to do almost everything the best, in the round.

  40. Private healthcare (which you admit your mother couldn’t afford) costs £1,435 in the UK, and £4,215 in the US. If your mother couldn’t afford £1,435 how could she have afforded £4,215?

  41. Many aspects of US healthcare are superb.

    But it costs too much, is wildly complicated, and it leaves too many people not covered for any proper care.

    It can be made much better.

  42. Your figures are nonsense out-of-your-arse comparisons, Seamus.You couldn’t answer my request to be more “like-for-like” specific, and so I am not going to honour your politically motivated nonsense figures with a reply. Repeat your question again if it makes you feel superior, I have no objection.

  43. The NHS is third-world crud-shite, that is all I will say.

  44. “Your figures are nonsense out-of-your-arse comparisons, Seamus.”

    No. One shows the cost of private health insurance in the UK. The other shows the cost of private health insurance in the United States. You couldn’t get a more like-for-like comparison.

    So again, if your mother couldn’t afford £1,435 (the cost of UK insurance) how could she have afforded £4,215 (the cost of US insurance)?

  45. “The NHS is third-world crud-shite, that is all I will say.”

    Which is bollocks. But then that is all you have said on this thread. Bollocks mixed with bullshit mixed with horseshit.

  46. Seamus

    Is bupa allowed to ” discriminate ” ( underwrite ) against those with pre-existing conditions in the UK and Ireland?

    Before Obamacare, that was the practice in the US.

    Are they allowed to charge smokers more than nonsmokers? All health and life insurer here do that I think, a fair practice.

  47. Go on, Seamus, say it again. £1435 versus £4215. Tell me again five times, it will do you good and it will signal that you are very virtuous and I’ll belive you. Naughty brexitannia is wrong and the NHS is superb. I need to hear it again, O’Brien.

  48. I’m nearly loving Big NHS Brother, but I’m not quite there yet, I need more treatment, please!

  49. They are. My understanding is that they are allowed to effectively un-insure people for pre-existing conditions. Effectively not pay if that person requires treatment for those conditions. So they will still insure you but not cover those.

  50. I actually don’t care if you believe. You have shown on this thread that you are nothing other than an attention seeking troll. You made bullshit comments that have been proven to not be true.

  51. Seamus

    So then bupa would have an extremely massive structural advantage against the NHS, if it can exclude or charge more for people with certain conditions, while the NHS can’t do that.

    It’s not a matter of them being more efficient, its that they can cherry pick.

    So much for the argument on the price of meat loaf and lima beans at Tesco’s

  52. The NHS is third-world crud-shite, that is all I will say

    That’s absolutely not my experience of it.

  53. I certainly take a certain pleasure in “trolling” Statists, that’s true. But I don’t think I seek attention; I have no facebook or twitter or other social media accounts, (what’s the point? On Twitter I’d merely post “I” and I’d be banned for life these days). I don’t think either that I’ve said anything that can be proven to be untrue; I’ve merely disagreed with the leftist stench (well that’s enough in their eyes! Trump “is” a waah-waaah-wacist because they say so, Supreme Justice Kavannagh is a “rapist” because well they say so, no evidence necessary) etc etc… Ha ha, arguing with The Left!

  54. “So then bupa would have an extremely massive structural advantage against the NHS, if it can exclude or charge more for people with certain conditions, while the NHS can’t do that.”

    Absolutely. The major issue with healthcare is the last mile problem. The last mile is the most expensive for the transportation of goods, but it is also useful for imaging a series of economic problems. In terms of market share getting from 30% to 40% market coverage is easier than getting from 90% to 95%.

    So there are groups of people, at the edge of health care conversations, who simply wouldn’t get coverage in a private health care system. To ensure them would cost more money than they could afford. To tailor a package for them would cost the company more money than they could recoup in fees. So the solution for the company is to just not ensure that person. A public system has a duty to cover 100% of people. So that means taking in the less efficient or cost effective people.

    It is also why the market is not suitable for healthcare (at least not on its own). If it costs more to give person A a car than the car dealer can recoup from him then his solution is to not sell him it (or sell him a cheaper, shitter car). And that is fine because it is a car. When it comes to life saving treatment it isn’t acceptable to say to person A that they can’t have it because they can’t afford it (or that they must accept a cheaper, shitter treatment).

    “I’ve merely disagreed with the leftist stench”

    Nope. You made claims. The evidence was then presented to you and you started to cry like a little bitch.

    “Trump “is” a waah-waaah-wacist because they say so”

    No Trump is racist because he keeps saying racist things, and because he discriminated against blacks in his rental practices in the 70s (and was sued for it by the Republican Attorney General).

    “Supreme Justice Kavannagh is a “rapist” because well they say so, no evidence necessary”

    There was evidence. Eye witness testimony is evidence. Whether it is evidence to prove this or that is debatable but it is still evidence.

  55. Please simply quote a singular “racist” uterance of President Donald J Trump. All of his statements are in the public domain, please quote verbatim one where it is plain that he hates, or is practically discriminatory against, people of a different skin color to his own.

  56. I believe that there was no corroboration for the charges vs Kavanaugh – not unusual for such things, but still.

    Decent Healthcare for an entire population can’t possibly be done in an unregulated private market. It has never happened in any country at any time.

    Even Hayek said that this was an area where there is a legitimate role for government.

  57. “Please simply quote a singular “racist” uterance of President Donald J Trump.”

    The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day.

    Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that.

    When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.

    I mean, really, who knows how much the Japs will pay for Manhattan property these days?

    Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?

  58. “I believe that there was no corroboration for the charges vs Kavanaugh – not unusual for such things, but still.”

    Absolutely. But testimony from the alleged victim is still evidence. So it is simply factually untrue to say that Kavanaugh was accused without evidence.

  59. (Whistling theme from “The Good The Bad And The Ugly” while I wait for the definitive Racist Trump quote)….

  60. The Mexicans AREN’T sending their best people. What’s wah-wah-wacist about saying that?

  61. Kavanaugh

    It’s unverifiable evidence that could be lies. Not the best type of evidence at all.

    And I’m not saying that she was lying. I have no idea.

  62. “The Mexicans AREN’T sending their best people”

    The Mexicans aren’t sending anyone for starters. Secondly saying all the people crossing the border are bringing drugs, crime and are rapists is racist.

  63. “It’s unverifiable evidence that could be lies. Not the best type of evidence at all.”

    Sure. Not saying it was good evidence, or conclusive evidence. But it was still evidence. Which means that “Supreme Justice Kavannagh is a “rapist” because well they say so, no evidence necessary” is factually incorrect. Like most of the other shite this guy has come up with.

  64. brex

    You may have never encountered any Mexicans.

    I see many now in NYC, where 25 years ago there were not many.

    I see humble, kind, family oriented people who work really hard.

    Trump’s statement was morally and factually wrong and unhelpful to any cause that he sought to bolster.

  65. It was crap, lying evidence, put forward by a crap, lying false evidencer, purely for the purpose of unseating the President. And who thought she could get away wioth it because wah-wah-wimminn, “believe herrrr!” Utter crap.

  66. “It was crap, lying evidence, put forward by a crap, lying false evidencer”

    Speaking of making accusations without evidence…

  67. Don’t be a Gilibrand.

    No one knows if those charges were true.

  68. Sure, no-one knows utterly scientifically speaking, but I damn as heck know she was a false accuser due to her stupid false accent that she put on, and due to her anti-Trump bias and the mere fact that CNN covered it as if it was true. CNN = believe the complete opposite. If you cant see that by now, then the USA truly gets what it deserves.

  69. Do you ever notice that right wing people seem to be the only people who ever know what is on CNN?

  70. I watch CNN so rarely that I sometimes forget the channel number

    But I never forget the numbers for Fox or MSNBC the evil twins of propaganda TV news.