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UNDERCOVER MOSQUE… !

By ATWadmin On January 13th, 2009

Interesting to see what those poor oppressed Gazans put in their Mosques, isn’t it? Good thing the IDF took them out. The thing is, given that this most ..ahem..holy place was being used by Hamas to store their weapons, I would have thought this would have invoked the wrath of all those moderate Muslims the media spends so much telling us about but so far…silence! How curious.

Mind you, it’s not just the Mosques in Gaza that you have to look out for, it’s the schools. Interesting to see what those poor oppressed Gazans do with booby-traps there, isn’t it? Again, no UN outrage for some odd reason.

65 Responses to “UNDERCOVER MOSQUE… !”

  1. "Is that a cannon in your mosque or are you just out to kill me?"

  2. Pete,

    LOL – may Allah forgive you.

  3. I saw this on Channel Four news, and it was shown in conjunction with a Hamas video. It referred to both as propaganda videos. But I guess Channel Four News is anti-semitic.

  4. With scenes of all these weapons in Gaza, any second thoughts by the critics of the terrible blockade of the place?

  5. So Israel can invade with the heaviest armour Uncle Sam can provide, as well as satellite-guided drones and top-of-the-line bombers, yet you get your knickers in a twist when Hamas hauls up an anti-aircraft gun – surely the most moral weapon imaginable (especially in circumstances when laser-guided bombs still manage to kill hundreds of civilians).

    What a crowd of pansies you are!
    And as for the place of worship, I would have thought your hushpuppy war-lust would at least have taken you to the cinema, where even you would learn that no side respects places of worship in war.

  6. RS,

    Amidst all this tragedy, – and there’s you worried about someone calling someone, or something else, ‘anti-semitic’.

    The depth of your feeling and grasp of intellectual concepts are truly impressive!

  7. Phantom why shouldn’t the Palestinians have weapons? So you expect the Palestinians to just lie down and die?

  8. Ernest you don’t do sacrcasm much do you? Nevermind the fact you seem ignorant of ATW righties fav rebuttal to any critics of Israeli policy.

  9. Were it not for the rockets, they wouldn’t have been fighting anyone right now.

    Wouldn’t it have been better not to have this conflict in the first place?

    Weapons got them into this current state of affairs ( speaking of the Israeli invasion, leaving aside the larger issues )

  10. RS –

    I wouldn’t say that Channel 4 News is anti-semitic, but Jon Snow is a self-confessed pinko liberal.

    One’s as bad as the other, really.

  11. Thanks Noel, you just proved once and for all that you don’t really give the slightest crap about civilians and are indeed just Jew-bashing. AA fire? Fine. AA weapons deliberately cited amongst civilians so the only way to take them out is to hurt civilians? That’s deeply moral behaviour baby!

  12. ‘Wouldn’t it have been better not to have this conflict in the first place?’

    This conflict started roughly 60 years ago.

    ‘Weapons got them into this current state of affairs ( speaking of the Israeli invasion, leaving aside the larger issues )’

    Leaving aside the fact the Palestinians have every bit as much right as the israelis to weaponry, See above answer for how they got into this situation.

  13. Noel – actually the lack of respect for the Mosque was done by Hamas who placed the gun there.

    Movies aside, places of worship don’t necessarily insure sanctuary, and they have been sometimes targeted in times of war despite their lack of military relevance – Mt. Cassino comes to mind and that was the good guys who did the bad thing.

    But here, Hamas placed its weapon deliberately in the Mosque, and if you were fair-minded on the topic you’d admit that was wrong.

  14. Its amazing we have people here willing to believe IDF videos showing weapons inside schools and an AA gun INSIDE a Mosque (where it is completely usless), But some of the same people refuse to believe anti-arab grafitti is real.

  15. >>AA weapons deliberately cited amongst civilians so the only way to take them out is to hurt civilians?<<

    You’re right, as they are obviously hopelessly ineffective against such high-tech aircraft and are just sitting targets.

    But if the AA operators could bring down an Israel bomber or two on its lethal mission, my only thought would be – to quote a countrywoman speaking in an entirely different context –
    May their hands be steady, may their aim be true!

    As for the "Jew-bashing" bit (are American-supplied aircraft really Jews?), I am, curiouisly enough, with Ernest here: Who’s worried about someone calling someone, or something else, ‘anti-semitic’ amidst all this tragedy?

  16. RS- why, do you think it is false? It is a fairly common tactic in Iraq and has been a known tactic among various Palestinian groups.

  17. Mahons what good is an AA gun if its in a mosque. Nevermind the criticism Israel has been gettin for destroying places of worship and schools/hospitals. Perhaps it is real, but it does seem convenient, no?

  18. So the justification for air-raids now is the presence of anti-aircraft defences?

    Right wing "logic" – you can’t beat it.

  19. Who says the AA gun was meant to be used inside the building? Those things can be moved you know. They could well have been using the mosque for storage, removing the AA gun when needed

  20. RS – it seems pretty damn inconvenient because Hamas will use an attack on a mosque to draw more support from the faithful. As for what good it does – it makes the mosque a target, that is its purpose, not to shot down planes.

    You might check out Troll’s post regarding Hamas attacking 100 aid trucks and then seelling the items to the highest bidder, which I have questioned the accuracy (and it seems I was right to do so from the lack of further verification). I am not buying IDF claims hook line and sinker, but I am also not dismissing them out of hand.

  21. So the justification for air-raids now is the presence of anti-aircraft defences?

    No. The air raids are taking out the Hamas structures that have attacked Israel. However you all seem to be deliberately missing the point of the post. It’s your own use of logic in response that seems a little off here.

  22. "The air raids are taking out the Hamas structures that have attacked Israel"

    An anti-aircraft gun?

    How is that used to attack Israel?

  23. Weapons got them into this current state of affairs ( speaking of the Israeli invasion, leaving aside the larger issues )

    Really, Phanthom? weapons got the Palestinians into their current state of affairs? 1.5 or more million people are caged in a tiny corner of a desert. Their borders have been blocked and they survive on aid which the Israelis may or may not leave in.

    To be blunt, OPEN YOUR EYES!, What would you do if you were in their (Palestinians) position? The problem is, and i will say it again, These people have been kicked off of land in Israel that they once owned. That is a fact. Do you accept it? It is not an intellectually difficult concept to understand. Pete Moore has failed to, but i am sure that you can. If that fact is not, at least, faced, the situation will continue.

    Secondly, to put it simply: Even if Hamas have weapons in Mosques/Schools/ambulances, Israel cannot fire on Mosques/Schools/ambulances if they are occupied by civilians. If they do, and the Red Cross say they have fired on ambulances, then they are committing terrorist acts, just like, Hamas firing rockets at civilians.

    That is it. That is the key problem that i have with Israel’s present war.

  24. Mahons your argument is self-defeating. Hamas want to draw support from the faithful by having a mosque attacked through their own actions. The ‘faithful’ would see an AA gun being carried into a mosque. Also Hamas as a fundamentalist grouping wouldn’t really be into having their places of worship demolished. Furthermore after the aircraft had targetted said mosque, wouldn’t Hamas move in to remove the AA gun so the IDF ground support following couldn’t use it for exactly these purposes? And you seem to think they use the weapon more for bait that for firing????
    Whilst your theory is indeed plausible, as is mine, it seems its a case of you pick your liars and I’ll pick mine. But as Jimmy said air defences provoking an air-strike???? It seems the Israelis are desperately clamouring for ways to account for the destruction they’ve wrought.

  25. Jo, that bomb attack is one of the most underreported events of the Troubles, even more strange as it was the first of a litany of such atrocities. As far as I know, I am the only person who ever mentioned it here.

    Do yourself a favour and go easy on the "hate site" stuff and personal attacks on David. He lets everyone here have thier say, within reason.

    Also, switching to an attack on a pub in the context of attacks on places of worship will probably be obvious only to Mahons!

  26. Unlike churches, mosques are not places of spirituality, peace and sanctuary. Even in the West they are quasi-military citadels and centres of subversion, intimidation and aggression.

    Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s prime minister and ex-mayor of Istanbul, said that ‘the mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers.’

  27. Offensive and defensive weapons are to both military weapons and are to be seen as such

    If the IDF wants to take out a facility for making rockets ( what precipated all of this ) the AAA gun and those who protect it are the most legitimate targets of all time.

    Guba, my eyes are very wide open. If you want to draw in the all of Middle East history to this sad, entirely unnecessary war, then go right ahead but you lead us only into the swamp of accusations and ancient wrong.

    The Palestinians have plenty of legitimate beefs and they need to be addressed.

    But this imbecilic war, for which Hamas and its friends bear 100% of the blame, will not redress one of these grievances. It will only cause more.

    The Israelis can never give Hamas and its allies free rein to operate from mosques and other civilian areas. To do so will reward the barbarian activity and encourage more of it.

    I will be very interested in discussing the overall situation -but not here.

    First the rockets must stop, permanently

    Then the Gaza fighting stops, hopefully permanently

    Then anything and everything should be discussed.

  28. "Even in the West they are quasi-military citadels and centres of subversion, intimidation and aggression."

    Sounds like the Martyrs’ Memorial.

  29. Jimmy – what? Kat rockets attack Israel. Israel’s air raids within this war are designed to take all of that out. Sure Hamas can use anti aircraft arsenal. And of course Israel will also try to take those out aswell. The issue is where they are either hidden or firing from and who is then at risk as a result. It is up to Hamas where to position them and accept the consequences.

  30. RS- Hamas is being defeated, so why shouldn’t they pile on and help defeat themselves.

    GUBA -again, thank you for parting from yesterday’s claim of being an supporter of Israel until recently.

  31. "Israel’s air raids within this war are designed to take all of that out."

    Nonsense. There is zero prospect of that being achieved. This exercise is designed solely to make Kadima look every bit as genocidal as Likud in the upcoming election. Of course it’s a pointless exercise because however many they murder, Bibi will say it wasn’t enough.

  32. ‘Hamas is being defeated, so why shouldn’t they pile on and help defeat themselves.’

    Mahons I’d expect a more erudite response from you in paritcular.

    How did Israel know Hamas had an AA gun in that mosque?

    So are saying the presence of weapons or enemy personnel allows such destructive bombing?

  33. This exercise is designed solely to make Kadima look every bit as genocidal as Likud in the upcoming election.

    Let no-one say the Jews can’t learn how to win an election from Hamas.

  34. RS –

    How did Israel know Hamas had an AA gun in that mosque?

    IDF infantry walked in and found it – those cunning Jews eh?

    If you watched the video you’d see that the mosque is pretty much intact.

  35. Sh*t Jimmy, you just beat me to that last one

    :0(

  36. Unlike some of the Hamas vermin that used it.

  37. I shouldn’t have said all of it. I should of said as much of it as possible. Fair enough. But my comment stands. And they are achieving those aims with the outgoing US President. Still doesn’t explain why you are deliberately missing the point of the post.

  38. RS – Why settle for erudite when I can also be mischievous?

    I suspect Israel has pretty good intelligence in GAZA.

    Bombing is destructive. If they had a bomb that would only kill terrorists, they’d use it. But it hasn’t been invented yet.

  39. Phanthom: Targeting these weapons when they are among innocent civilians is not allowed, period. There can be no argument on this, unless we are talking about nukes.

    There is no point focusing on this little war, there have been many of these little wars and there will be many more if we do not focus on the root causes of this conflict.

    The root cause of this war is not Hamas firing rockets, it is not even ‘peace’ walls or blockades. The root cause of this is that the Palestinians have been removed from land, without their consent, and have not been allowed to return.

    The Palestinians will continue to source weapons and attack Israel until it is resolved. This war will make Hamas stronger and they will continue to source weapons. Hamas will only be defeated and Israel safe when they tackle this problem.

  40. I echo Noel’s comments re Jo. It’s a pity she can’t just come on here and argue however feircely against views she disapproves off without being personal or constantly using the term ‘hate site’.

  41. GUBA – well events seem to indicate otherwise, as I imagine the Hamas roll call today has quite less people shouting "Present" when asked if they are here.

    Also Israel has again demonstrated to several of its less savory neighbors that it will fight to protect itself.

    What the Palestinians might try, if they have the nerve, is a nonviolent movement. It has worked elsewhere.

  42. Mahons: What do you mean by ‘supporter of Israel’, really?

    I don’t wave around an Israel flag, or attend inane protests chanting stupid slogans. On blogs, i do not endlessly comment: ‘What about the Palestinians? Condemn them too! Condemn them too!’ Politics is not football.

    I support Israel’s right to exist. I do not support how they have treated the Palestinians. I do not support this war. I recognise that the root cause of this conflict is Israeli not Arab. I want a peaceful Israel and a peaceful Palestine, and i know the ONLY way of achieving this is by the Israeli’s figuring out a way of compensating Israel’s former owners. Maybe they can’t, i do’t know.

  43. The whole brouhaha here about The Gun in the Mosque is beyond laughable, and just another example of how deep people will sink in hypocrisy just for a bit of propaganda.

    Armies – including the British and American – also used churches for cover in war. Who’s going to let a spot of sacriledge get in the way of saving his life?
    That people here can suggest that in this fight in Gaza – surely the most unequal military encounter in terms of weapons, technology, training and money since the Nazis invaded the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw – Hamas can’t decide where and when to use the paltry weapons they have to fire at bombers (!!) is funny even by the standards of the Go-Israel chant
    (and that AA gun in the pic doesn’t belong in a mosque as much as in a museum. Probably left there by Monty’s men in ’44, what?)

    If the Nazis had invaded Britain in WWII would the local resistance have not stored and used their weapons in the places most suitable for military purposes, and scorned the kind of pussy-footing we suddenly see here from people who are otherwise out baying for blood and bombings and massacres of innocents (including, in Mike’s case, on the Lord’s Day).

    Well we damned well know the WWII British resistance would, as the records of their plans for that scenario show that they would have reacted in ways that make Hamas look like Quakers!

    But I see a sane voice has arrived in Guba, so I can go back to my work knowing that the cause of truth and justice is in good hands here. Go Guba, Go!

  44. Problem is Noel – in your analogy, Hamas are the Nazis.

  45. ‘What the Palestinians might try, if they have the nerve, is a nonviolent movement. It has worked elsewhere.’

    Haha wonderful! Well that would be just dandy would it not? Why will the Israeli’s not try a non-violent movement? Why should Hamas take the first leap?!

    If someone takes your land and fires at you when you try and retake it, are you obligated to start a ‘non-violent movement’?
    I would ask them nicely to leave at the beginning, but I would probably get very violent, if it was me, if they did not comply, would you? That is the Palestinians view of this conflict.

    That is how the Americans viewed the American independence War, the Irish theirs, the Boers theirs, the Black South Africans theirs the Indians theirs and so on to infinity. How is it that you (and so many others) can recognise this when it comes to all of the above, but do not when the word ‘Palestinian’ is mentioned?

  46. GUBA -it isn’t what I mean, but what you meant, as you proclaimed yourself as having been one until just recently when you led off yesterday (my memory isn’t fully destroyed by booze, though I keep trying). Nice attempt, but your slip is showing.

  47. ‘Also Israel has again demonstrated to several of its less savory neighbors that it will fight to protect itself.’

    The Palestinians have shown they will resist that which Israel has done to them.

    ‘What the Palestinians might try, if they have the nerve, is a nonviolent movement. It has worked elsewhere.’

    Are you suggesting the palestinians have never tried this?

  48. Noel, Stay! i cannot fight the good fight for sanity alone!

  49. Mahons: I would not dream ‘slip’, please tell me what you mean by a ‘supporter of Israel’? How am i not being a supporter of Israel? I think i am being a very strong supporter, unlike most others here.

  50. RS – The Palestinains will to "resist" has gotten them nowhere.

    I am suggesting that there has never been a significant nonviolent movement among the Palestianians. I am also suggesting tha tthey will have real success if they tried it.

    Noel – stay – GUBA needs group therapy.

  51. GUBA -with friends like you who needs enemies.

  52. Mahons, a good friend is one who stops his friend from doing evil and, in many ways, destroying himself.
    Israel is the occupying force. It also subjected Gaza to a starvation blockade that no people could tolerate just to make Hamas unpopular among the Palestinians there, as they admitted at the time.
    It was not to stop Hamas firing rockets as that was not an issue then. Just look back thru the papers of the day and you’ll see what was on the Israeli govt’s mind at the time.

    Re. Guba. Those against the Israeli attack on Gaza are no more necessarily "anti-Israel" than those against Bush’s Iraq war were necessarily anti-American.

    That’s just a lazy slur
    (by the way. what’s so particularly damning about being anti-Israel or anti-American anyway. People here can be anti-France, anti-China and anti- a host of other countries and nations to their hearts content. How come precisely the guys with armies invading other countries are supposed to get the cotton-wool treatment?)

  53. Mahons: Let me clarify my insanity comment. I do not mean that you and others are insane in a clinical sense. I mean, rather, that an insane person fails to recognize the reality of the situation.
    In that sense, we are all a bit insane with relation to different things. Maybe, i am insane thinking that the Waterford hurlers can beat Kilkenny this year!. (apologies to those who do not get the reference) The reality of the situation is that our defence is crap and Dan Shanahan is a mulaker, but it is just too difficult, uncomfortable for me to accept.

  54. Noel – Then I’ll try to stop you from destroying yourself with knee-jerk rejection of Israel.

    As for GUBA – I don’t care if he’s anti-Israel, I just enjoyed reminding him his claim tha the was a supporter until recently, belied by a subsequesnt series of comments. And he hasn’t limited himself to the recent hostilities in Gaza.

    GUBA – Waterford produces better crystal than hurlers.

  55. Guba, when I made that remark above about the Israel-Hamas encounter being the most unequal since WWII, I had totally forgotten about Waterford vs Kilkenny.

  56. ‘I am suggesting that there has never been a significant nonviolent movement among the Palestianians. I am also suggesting tha tthey will have real success if they tried it.’

    Just to give you a flavour of what the Palestinians are pitted against…

    ‘Yehoshua Palmon, the governments advisor in the 1950s on Arab affairs, described in a 1983 interview how he had implemented the governments policy toward the Arabs. "I behaved toward them as a wolf in sheeps clothing – harsh, but outwardly decent", he said. "I opposed the integration of Arabs into Isreli society. I preferred seperate development". Palmon understood "seperate developement" excluded Arabs from the political process. "true, this prevented the Arabs from integrating into the Israeli democracy. Yet they never had democracy before. Since they never had it they never missed it. the seperation made it possible to maintain a democratic regime within the Jewish population alone."

    ‘Despite the pressure from the military govt, some Arabs tried to form their own political parties, and when they did, the govt blocked them. It was "a principle of the military authorities not to tolerate nationalistic organising within the area under its control". When nationalists organised meetings aimed at forming Arab political organisations, the military govt stopped them. It denied them travel permits, put them under house arrest, or expelled them from the country.
    An Arab political organisation was formed in the 1950s under the name Al-Ard (The Land). Concerned over its activity, the govt confiscated its publications in 1960 and arrested its leaders. In 1964 however, Al-Ard presented a list of candidates to stand election to the knesset, under the name Arab Socialist List. The district commissioner of haifa denied the group the right to form, on the ground "its aim was to undermine the existence and security of the state of Israel".

  57. Mahons:

    Recent hostilities? Was everything fine and dandy until this whole rocket thing kicked off and Israel invaded? It is my impression that these hostilities have been ongoing for the last 70 years. In other words, the cause of this present war is not Hamas firing rockets at Israel. If only it were so simple!

    The cause of this conflict is the same that has caused every instance of violence in Israel/palestine for nearly 3/4th of a century. It has nothing to do with rockets.

    Waterford Crystal was some cheap tat we made for the yanks. Now you are not buying it anymore and the whole lot is closing down! Its not closing down BTW because Waterfrd Crystal itself is unprofitable, they bought Wedgewood, Royal Doulton and other English ceramic companies which have bombed. It’s nothing to do with our glass!

    The Waterford hurlers will be back. Who else is there? Cork are a joke and Galway are a one man show. Tip will be tough, but we beat them last year and should beat them again. Waterford will reach the final again in 09 and be hamered by slightly less than last year.

  58. (contd)

    ‘The district commissioner acted under articles 84 and 85 of the Defence (Emergency) Regulations, which permit the banning of 2unlawful associations", groups found to be detrimental to state security. the Supreme Court upheld the denial, Judge Alfred Witkon stating that Al-Ard’s platform "expressly and totally negates the existence of the state of Israel in general and its existence within its present boundaries in particular". Al-Ard did not call for the elimination of Israel, though it did advocate a palestinians State. It called for "recognition" of the UN General Assembly Resolution 181 which recommended the partition of Palestine and would thereby "maintain the rights of both Israeli-Jewish and Palestinian Arab people and would strenghten the stability and peace of the area" Following the Supreme Court decision, the minister of defense declared Al-Ard an "illegal organisation".

    (The Case For Palestine – An International Law Perspective by john Quigley)

  59. Noel: That was the most humiliating, painful, embarrassing day of my life! Never has there been a worse walk of shame out of Croke Park.

    We will have our revenge. I’d say John Mullane would scare the proverbial out of the most ardent Hamas would-be suicide bomber. That guy truly is a knacker, but a damn talented one.

  60. For the record GUBA claimed to be a supporter of Israel and now obviously has never been. That he has never been is of course fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But pretending to be something else is what we call lying or what Hanas calls speaking.

  61. RS- the Palestinians are their own worse enemies, followed closely by the Arab regimes that hate them but use them.

  62. Mahons:

    You are very wrong. Until you define what you mean by ‘supporter of Israel’ (shouldn’t be too difficult) we will get nowhere.

    I support Israel’s right to exist. I support their efforts of the recent past in leaving the West bank and Gaza. It did not go far enough, but, it was, at least, a brave stance.

    I supported Israel’s attacks on individual Hamas targets using pinpoint strikes; also their attempts against arms smuggling on the Egypt border.

    Over the last number of years, Israel have made tentative steps, while, Hamas have failed to make any meaningful contribution to peace.

    So, last few years until this present conflict (not including Lebanon) i would give Israel 4 out of 10 and Hamas 0 out of 10. Both performing badly, but Israel, at least, making some positive moves.

    I do not support Israel’s present activity. It is a disgrace. Why you ask? It is a thing called the Geneva Convention.

    mahons, define what you mean by ‘supporter of Israel’, pretty please!

    ‘the Palestinians are their own worse enemies’

    Well, this clearly is not true. Why are they in the West Bank, Gaza strip and refugee camps?

    What was Germany’s greater enemy in WW2, Hitler’s incompetent lunacy or Russia, the USA and Britain? Come on now Mahons, honest answer!

  63. They were their own worst enemies in that they selected the worst possible leadership ( Arafat, Hamas ) and used the worst possible tactics at every possible occasion.

    The selection of their leaders was something they controlled and they always went for thieves, terrorists or suicide bombers. You can’t blame Israel for that.

  64. Well, i am making the point that the Palestinians are not their own worst enemy at all. That statement is factually incorrect. Israel is clearly their number one enemy.

    I do not doubt that they have been incompetent. Often, emotionalism takes over from rationalism when you have been done a grave injustice.

    Were the men of 1916 wrong to fight the british? Maybe, in the longterm, it was not in their rational self-interest, but i can understand why they did it. And, if you are being honest, you will admit that you can see why the Palestinians reacted the way they did to Israel, do you?

  65. Mahons your belief they hold try peaceful means has been demonstrated to be pointless.. That would take a big change of attitude in the Israeli elite. As the evidence shows.