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We will not be employing our guns

By Patrick Van Roy On August 29th, 2019

But the outrage that is percolating beneath the surface is palpabil you can feel in the air a charged pressure building with each passing day.

For over 2 years it has been shoved down our throats that the President was a Traitor. He colluded with the Russians to steal the election from Hillary.

That is what they claimed and that was what he was framed to look like he was doing. While the same people that were framing him falsifying evidence and committing perjury to use the Patriot Act to destroy a political candidate. This was the very thing the Left screamed would happen with the Patriot Act, and that is exactly what the left did.

They never expected he would win, no one really did. Come the end of election day however Trump was President not Clinton. Now the Obama administration officials are screwed. If their activity is discovered they could all go to jail. The Mueller investigation was set into motion the incoming administration must be kept on the defensive to prevent them from proceeding to look into the counter espionage investigation and the Hillary “probe”. They had no doubt that Mueller’s investigation would uncover crime. Trump was a NYC Real Estate Developer half the construction business in NY is Mob connected. They knew they would find something and then he’d be gone.

One problem the last thing anyone expected, Trump was Mr. Clean…… they got nothing.

When it all unravelled the backlash began. There are 5 separate IG Criminal investigations looking into the origins of the FISA Warrants, the counter espionage investigations origin, the Hillary email cover up, the use of foreign intelligence assets to subvert american law, and a little one on Comey’s admitted leaking of classified information.

The framing of Trump and the Clinton Cover Up were ran out of the White House. It was coordinated through Brennan, Clapper, Lynch, and Comey.

No one expects Obama or Clinton to ever see a courtroom let alone serve the time they deserve, but we expect those that broke the law in their name be held accountable to the Law.

The fear that they will not is causing an underlying unease in half the population.  An unease that will quickly erupt into outrage.

They destroyed General Flynn’s life, Manafort and Cohn got what they deserved, Papadopoulos got screwed, and Carter Page the man they first set up is going to wind up filthy rich by the time he’s done.

Today the minor IG report was revealed to the public, it was considered so small in the tempest of this storm of investigations that no one even knew it was going on. Crooked Cop James Comey’s admitted leak investigation. It has been decided that the crooked cop won’t be prosecuted for this violation of the Law.

He has been smarmy all day demanding apologies and reparations…. scumbag. He won’t get either and he is still under investigation as part of ALL FOUR of the other investigations. He is far from in the clear.

The Law Abiding that go to work pay their bills and taxes while playing by societies rules are holding our breath. If major players in this scandal don’t get charged with the crimes that they committed the unrest of the middle class will be quite real. How it will manifest I can not predict except we will not resort to violence.

But that outrage will be expressed if it is confirmed to the general public that there is a two tier system in our Country.

Personally I have Faith….. there will be prosecutions and justice will be served. I do not believe my nation has fallen.

174 Responses to “We will not be employing our guns”

  1. What a load of old waffle 😉

  2. What in sanity’s name does that title have to do with anything?

  3. Veiled threat.

    Nice country you got there, shame if there was an armed GOP uprising. Because we’re unhappy about whatever.

  4. no a disclaimer ahead of those who would say the whole post is a veiled threat……

    and I knew he would.

  5. Most posts don’t start with a threat, this one did.

    Very Kamala Harris of you ( she called Biden a racist by saying that she wasn’t calling him a racist ) Will you be voting for her

  6. Patrick

    The outrage percolating below the surface is only in your own mind. I’m sure 99% of Americans are bored of or indifferent to the whole saga. If there is ever going to be a citizens uprising over a political issue this would be 996th on the priority list !

  7. The outrage is all in the talk radio bubble.

    Rush and ” the great one ” are screaming and roaring as we speak, getting the mob all riled up.

  8. You underestimate the anger and you scoff that it’s hogwash because you don’t expose yourself to those that hold a different set of values than yourselves except me.

    If they don’t at least indict those that misused the patriot act we won’t employ our guns but reaction will not be pretty.

    A two tier justice system flaunted in the public’s face, one for the public and a second for the political…. sorry you underestimate the american people.

    We are nation of laws this outrage crosses all divisions…. if you are not politically connected you are subject to the Law, but a political insider your not…? No sorry not here.

    No one expect O or H to get anything but we have a bunch of crooked cops, crooked cops need not only to be prosecuted but persecuted.

    The used the most powerful court in the land the court designed to catch terrorist to try and frame a candidate for president…

    If this stands without prosecutions the nation is done, and the working class will know it and start to panic.

  9. Patrick

    There has always been a two tier justice system in every country in all times. It ain’t nothing new. Unless you can find me evidence of any country’s justice system that always treats the crimes of a well connected powerful billionaire the same as an unemployed random teenager

  10. This is a real Constitutional Crises if these people aren’t prosecuted.

    You kid yourselves if you think I am the only one concerned about this, I will repeat though I believe at least 4 people before this is over will be crucified.

    I can not believe that injustice will prevail over justice. We are better than that, and if we aren’t we are done as a nation without the ugliest twenty years of political fighting that will make the last three look like a Disney movie.

  11. I’v already said that Comey deserves to be criticized.

    But this is hardly a ” coup ” or anything along those lines

  12. We’re not talking the rich Colm, a little graff will always exist, but it happens a lot less than you think.

    No this is GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AND CROOKED COPS….. this can not pass not in our system.

    The DOJ/NSA/CIA tried to frame a Presidential candidate. This is the greatest scandal in american history.

  13. Sure it is.

  14. Phantom what was the call when the Patriot Act was created… ?

    It will be used against the innocent public for political reasons…. not one case was it ever abused under Bush

    Under Barack Obama the Patriot Act was used to Spy on an innocent American not only for political reasons, but for political sabotage of a Presidential Campaign… a worst case scenario.

    If you think people don’t have to pay and pay dearly what kind of a country do you want to live in ?

  15. The Russians did meddle in the US campaign and the Trump campaign did have dubious contacts with Russians and Ukranians

    The investigations were warranted.

  16. Patrick

    And even if your claims are even half true they don’t in my opinion compare to one of the true shameful denial of justice episodes in American history – the My Lai massacre . That ranks far higher a shameful stain on American justice.

  17. We are nation of law

    You’re not, not at all. Five minutes ago you said it was okay for the US to use terrorist death squads as long as it was in America’s interest.

  18. Phantom, on August 29th, 2019 at 10:57 PM Said: Edit Comment
    The Russians did meddle in the US campaign and the Trump campaign did have dubious contacts with Russians and Ukranians

    The investigations were warranted.

    You’re insane all russian contact with the Trump campaign was ran through fusion gps and james brennan through australia, italy and great britain you drank the coolaid.

    MyLai was a war crime…. this is a 1000 times worst Colm…. shit happens in War.

  19. Paul….. what are you talking about

  20. Patrick

    Thanks for that last sentence on your 11:14pm comment. It shows all your moral outrage over abuse of justice to be nothing more than political bias. Thousands of innocent humans slaughtered who cares? A Republican President might have suffered some unfair accusations WORST CRIME EVER.

    You are either deeply morally imbalanced, or just winding everyone up !

  21. How many times are you going to sing this song before you learn some new verses

  22. Colm

    March 16, 1968). The US president was Lyndon B. Johnson (Democratic)

    My Lai Massacre

    Mass Murder
    The Mỹ Lai Massacre was the Vietnam War mass murder of unarmed South Vietnamese civilians by U.S. troops in Sơn Tịnh District, South Vietnam, on 16 March 1968. Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were killed by U.S. Army soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd Infantry Division. Victims included men, …

    Date: Mar 16, 1968
    Location: Sơn Mỹ (village), Sơn Tịnh District, South Vietnam
    Target: My Lai 4 and My Khe 4 hamlets

    I said it was a War Crime what Republican President are you talking about ?

    You may not like it but the american citizens are more concerned NOW with the intelligence and justice dept being used as political weapons than event 50yrs ago.

  23. Emerald Pimpernel, on August 29th, 2019 at 11:37 PM Said: Edit Comment
    How many times are you going to sing this song before you learn some new verses

    until the crooked cops heads are in nooses

  24. Patrick

    The President I am talking about is the current one and your moral outrage over the supposed claims made against him, Russian collusion and all that, which you regard as the worst scandal ever, far worse than cold blooded slaughtering of hundreds of defenceless women children and babies for which if I recall correctly just one American soldier was jailed ( house arrest for 6 months i believe). You and all suitably mock outraged Americans have no right to whinge about Justice denied now when you quite comfortably shrugged at a real inhuman bloody scandal where your country protected its own government employed mass murderers from Justice.

  25. How dare they investigate the savior of man, Donald J Trump, who sits at the side of Fred J Trump in Trump Tower

  26. Fine Colm we’re cold hypocritical bloody bastards and we’re going to continue to be.

    A minimum 1000 souls for every 1 of ours. Threaten us and we will kill you, hit us we will kill you and every member of your town or village,,,,, this is how you keep the peace with outsiders…… The only rule is might and the fear that we will use that might keeps the riff raff in line.

    When it comes to internal application of the rules the standards are just the opposite 1000 souls should go free before one soul is wrongly punished, and the rules are the same for everyone.

    That set of rules takes precedence over everything.

  27. I love you Patrick but you are bloody nuts, 😉

  28. they had no just cause phantom….. everything they had was fake and they knew…. but presented it as real….. that is a violation to the core of our society.

  29. I resemble that remark….

  30. Well I ain’t gonna recuse it 😉

  31. Trump was/is in cahoots with the Russians. He even wants to include them in the G7. He got by the Mueller report on a technicality. His campaign passed polling data to the Russians and they swung the election. Etc, etc, etc.

    The Justice Department is compromised, it is unwise to believe anything they say.

    I agree with EP above – this is beyond boring. Get a life!

  32. you keep telling yourself that NYr….

    So tell me the Justice dept is compromised now….. what was it when it was used to try and throw a Presidential election……. ?

  33. When did that happen? 🙂

  34. Probably many times overseas, but not in the States itself !

  35. He’s talking about Allende

  36. we shall see….. won’t we… I could be wrong. We shall see

  37. My God ! Patrick admitting he could be wrong !!

    Well you could knock me down with a swans down feather. I’ve heard it all now 😉

  38. //Threaten us and we will kill you, hit us we will kill you and every member of your town or village,,,,, this is how you keep the peace with outsiders…… The only rule is might and the fear that we will use that might keeps the riff raff in line. //

    Well, it certainly didn’t keep them in line in Vietnam,
    or in Afghanistan, (including two Americans killed just last week, you know: just after Trump reached a deal with the Taleban)
    or in Iraq (around 4,000 US soldiers killed),
    or in Somalia last year,
    or in Niger the previous year,
    or in Yemen the same year.

    Where HAS your favourite rule ever worked, Patrick, or even been tried?

    Maybe at the battle of Mogadishu, when US Black Hawk helicopters were shot down, the crews murdered and their bodies dragged through the streets of the city??

    Well, no. The US response was to get the hell out of the place as quickly as possible.

    Or how about in Beirut in 1983, when 240 Yanks were killed after a suicide bomber blew up their barracks, in what one US observer described as the biggest non-nuclear explosion he’d ever seen?

    Hmmmm, no, I’m afraid not there either. You see, President Reagan didn’t even order airstrikes in retaliation (the French did) and soon pulled all US troops out of the place.

    You live in dreamworld. You think your tough words will help you forget the very soft reality that is your life.

    There are no easy solutions. The world is a very complicated place, and people like you are far from even beginning to understand it.

  39. Patrick, I never said that the Irish kill anyone who threatens them, or htat we destroy cities and villaces of any who kills an Irishman; or that our only rule is the power of violence to enforce our will.

    But you have claimed all of these things about the US. And you’ve done so several times.

    I pointed out to you that that is simply not correct, that the US has never pursued such a policy outside your dreamland when you sit in front of a TV and have wet dreams about war.

    I gave you numerous examples. Americans have been getting their asses kicked, with US servicemen being killed, in Iraq, Yemen, Niger, Afghanistan and Somalia and other places, and that’s just those killed in the past two years.

    You probably didn’t even know of some of these places or that Americans are getting killed there. You are lost in a permanent war dreamland.

    So when confronted with my examples, your dreaming head drifts off to Ireland and Germany, probably soon also into Clinton and Obama and CNN.

    Meanwhile, under Trump, Americans continue to get killed and the US is not taking any substantial retaliation action at all. Just busy getting out of the firing line and making a “peace deal” (that I don’t laugh) with the people who harboured Bin Laden and whose presence in Afghanistan was the stated reason for GW Bush invading the country in the first place.

    The world knows that Trump is a peace-loving pussy.

    Israel is maybe the country that comes closest to the kind of policy you seem to favour so much, but of course falls far short of your madness.

    For many good reasons that I can’t begin to explain to you, the US does not, cannot, have such a policy.

    But dream on……

  40. I was tempted to respond in kind Noel, but you’re not worth it…..

    As for my understanding of the world you don’t even understand the post. I feel for you Noel and I’ll pray for you.

  41. Wow, Patrick’s comments disappear as fast as a Trump resolution.

    First there is a comment, then there is no comment, then there is…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcMM5-zBCEc&list=RDXcMM5-zBCEc&start_radio=1

  42. as I said Noel my reflex was to punch back, but you’re not worth it.

    I’ll pray for you instead. you need it.

  43. Noel,

    Your 1:42 PM is a factual, well written, well thought out response. It shows you have experience of the real world, and how it works, which is of course in shades of grey not black and white. This good bad guys bad guys, we’re always going to win stuff is just childish nonsense.

    It was a pleasure to read mate, thank you.

  44. Your 10.23 is historically factual and correct Noel.

    The kind of scorched earth retribution advocated by people like Pat doesn’t exist in reality.

  45. //The kind of scorched earth retribution advocated by people like Pat doesn’t exist in reality.//

    Thankfully, it doesn’t.

    Probably nobody ever tried it as consistently as the Nazis did, but it didn’t work out well for them either.

  46. Perfect example of Americans being killed with out any action taken, Puerto Rico!

  47. The kind of scorched earth retribution advocated by people like Pat doesn’t exist in reality.

    really……. hmmm Last time I counted our dead vs the dead we inflicted the numbers were even steeper than my 1000 to 1.

    No I may put it in blunter terms than it’s fed to you, but our policy is as I describe and we are pushing to even make that ration higher with each next generation of toys…. our real goal is to be able to kill everyone else without ever deploying a human being except as last resort.

    The job of the our military is to kill the enemy and break his stuff…. we do it better than anyone. Hurah! Kill em all let God sort them out….. or we can be nice.. Give us your hearts and minds or will burn your damn Huts down…..

    We are the kindest most giving nation to those in need in all of recorded history, but don’t screw with us or eventually we will kill you. If we do you brought it on yourself. Too Bad.

  48. Emerald Pimpernel, on August 30th, 2019 at 4:07 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Perfect example of Americans being killed with out any action taken, Puerto Rico!

    42 Billion in cash aid, another 10 billion in supplies and the ricans poured it into the black hole of corruption that is our backward 51st state.

  49. We are the kindest most giving nation to those in need in all of recorded history

    I doubt that. On a per capita basis, we’re not so impressive. The Scandinavians, Germans and Swiss give much more than we do per capita in government aid.

    The ” evil Irish ” give twice as much per capita in government aid as the US does, and they give about 20% more in private donations also, despite being a country that isn’t as rich as the US is.

    So let’s be a little more humble.

    Above figures are from 2002, but they would not have changed much.
    https://www.infoplease.com/world/economic-statistics/capita-foreign-aid-assistance-worlds-wealthiest-countries-2002

  50. Phantom you really need to relocate to Europe.

    I don’t ever remember the scandinavian or irish navy ever showing up anywhere that was just wiped out by natural disaster. Per capita per capita…. lets see I’m gonna give you 25% of my per capita here’s 100 bucks because my nation don’t make shit compared to a real economy.

    America is shit right Tom….. get a transfer to your London office and don’t come back.

  51. here ya go Phantom….. this is my charge to YOU!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PYb_anBMus

  52. You need to sue your English and Logic teachers, they made no impact on you. A fake malpractice lawsuit from Jacoby & Meyers is in order. You can be in their next TV ad.

    I never said that America is shit.

    But I note that other countries give more as a percentage of what they have.

    If a poor person gives $20 to charity, he is vastly more charitable than a rich guy who gives $1000 to charity.

    I also note that some of America’s aid has not always been so altruistic. The Marshall Plan was the right thing to do, but it acted in support of US geopolitical aims against the USSR.

  53. there ya go…. bad mouthing the united states of america…

  54. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

  55. Really……. hmmm Last time I counted our dead vs the dead we inflicted the numbers were even steeper than my 1000 to 1

    Yeah really. I don’t think that claim above stands up to scrutiny at all.

    Now, I suspect you’ll attempt to include things like the Hiroshima & Nagasaki bombing in the US body count boast although trying to balance burning Japanese men woman & children against to death something like Hezbollah proxies bombing 241 US military personel to death in Beruit without retaliation is folly.

    Phantom you really need to relocate to Europe

    I don’t think he does at all. Why? for quoting statistical fact?

  56. I’m not sorry that I see NO FAULT in the United States.

    We are the best force for the good of all mankind on this planet. you all owe us everything the least each of your nations could do now is start acting like adults and stand on your own.

    Great Britain is going to stand on her own and she pays her own way…. the rest of the nations of Europe need to get their acts together. The former soviet bloc ones are doing it in varying degrees of success.

    Once gb is out of the little german and vichy club it will collapse time to start a pool on how long before complete chaos

  57. nicholson on fire

  58. The US war against a country that initially had no quarrel with us ( Vietnam ) led to up to one million Vietnamese deaths and great damage to their ecology.

    US-Vietnamese relations have been fully restored since then, and Vietnam has emerged as a sort of ally against China.

    But US aid to Vietnam for reconstruction has been exceptionally small especially considering that we did the damage.

  59. We are the kindest most giving nation to those in need in all of recorded history

    That’s simply untrue.

    Pat, both Noel and Phantom are correct and you’re not.

    Phantom is like most of the Americans I know, they objectively praise their country for its good, objectively condemn if for its bad and objectively recognise that the US isn’t the greatest at everything all the time.

  60. Patrick

    //I’m not sorry that I see NO FAULT in the United States.//

    Then your opinion on the United States is completely biased and should be totally ignored. Phantom on the other hand, gives honest criticism of his country when it’s deserved.

  61. FACT ! The USA is the greatest most flawless country in history and Patrick is its most humble, gentle and forgiving citizen 😉

  62. Anyone who can see no faults in their country can’t be regarded as a patriot, they can only be regarded as ignorant, a useful fool for those in charge.

  63. Come on y’all know Patrick’s winding ye’s all up.

    He’s metaphorically ramming his Stars and Stripes up our Euroweenie arses 😄

  64. Someone who sees no faults in his own country, or who never criticizes or comments on the faults in his own country is no patriot.

    It’s only by means of honest comment that you recognize problems, and then address them

  65. I don’t think that’s the case at all Colm. While Pat occasionally is mischevious I actualy think he sincerely believes in his (incorrect) opines about America being the greatest of the great and having no negatives.

  66. Yeah he believes that jazz alright

  67. your damn straight I believe it.

    Never doubt it.

  68. Maybe but he also knows the audience that he is talking to and I’m sure that mischievously prompts his MAGA exaggerations 😉

  69. You’re incorrect.

    We are the kindest most giving nation to those in need in all of recorded history

    That’s simply untrue.

  70. and I am neither stupid nor blind. I am well aware of my nations history with all it’s blemishes… and I still find no fault. We are the greatest boon the species has received.

    We are human which means there will be fuck ups, but that’s what they are fuck ups nothing more.

  71. Colm ……. me perform….nevah!

  72. Patrick

    I feel humbled and honoured that you even address me directly. I am just a simple non American soul. 😉

  73. you may kiss my ring…… rise Noble Sir Colm

  74. you see I believe in Truth, Justice, and the American Way….

    We fall short at times but it’s still the best path for the world. You guys can’t even master Free Speech.

  75. How can a country that has been at war for most of its existence possibly be seen as ‘the greatest boon the species has received’???

    Yes, the USA has some wonderful achievements to boast of, but, whilst the bad things you have done as a nation might not tip the balance towards you being a ‘bad’ country, it certainly puts you somewhere in the middle, same as most other places.

    It’s not un-patriotic to admit to this.

  76. every nation is always at war the judgement comes from why…. and our why’s are noble.

    And our economy and steering of the world towards the proper economic system has lifted the entire species.

  77. you see I believe in Truth, Justice, and the American Way….

    You believe in the old catchphrase of a made up cartoon character 😉

    We fall short at times but it’s still the best path for the world.

    Says who? You? Our way is best, because we say so?

    You guys can’t even master Free Speech.

    You’re still struggling to grasp the English language 🙂

  78. Jaysus, can I have a pint of whatever PaTroll’s drinking??

  79. I may not spell or punctuate but I assure you my good man I am quite articulate. Does anyone EVER not understand my point of view…..

    We are a comic book culture and the real symbol of America isn’t uncle sam it’s Batman.

    Our way is best, because it’s been proven to be the best.

  80. Seimi, will you be in Belfast around late October?

    Anyone else?

  81. This was my very first post on the internet,,,,, I stand by it today.

    My favorite has always been the Batman.

    The True symbol of The US
    The true symbol that represents the US is not uncle Sam, or the Eagle. The Flag may be our label but the symbol of the Heart of America is embodied in one of our comic book hero’s. The Batman. Think about it he is just a man after all yet he fights for what he feels is right. He doesn’t fight fair, he scares the hell out of those that he chooses to oppose. No super powers, just determination, an unbreakable will, a lot of really neat high tech gadgets. and the willingness to get bloody in the fight for justice. With an inner heart that truly believes that he can make a difference along with the understanding that he must do what he does because he can. Like him we are viewed as the vigilante and like him we don’t care because the rules weren’t made so as to allow evil to get away with evil even though that is how other nations seem to want to apply those rules. So you must sometimes break the rules for what is good and right. the end can justify the means.

  82. Patrick Va

    …Does anyone EVER not understand my point of view…..

    I think I do. Your point of view is; everything I say is correct, even though it’s often contradictory and I provide bad, or no evidence to back it up.

  83. that is your opinion Dave you’re entitled to it

  84. You see I believe in Truth, Justice, and the American Way….

    You don’t.

    Truth:

    We are the kindest most giving nation to those in need in all of recorded history

    That’s simply not true and made up on the spot.

    Justice:

    How many innocents have died as a result of the death sentence you support? How many Afghan wedding parties have been obliterated because of the ‘kill 1,000 of them’ mantra you espouse above?

    That’s very, very far from just.

    The American Way:

    A made up, contrived comic strip / filum soundbite.

  85. you have such a jaded view…..

    I have mine.

    Duty, Honor, God, Family, Country, and the Law you can scoff all you want those are the building blocs of civilization. And I have faith.

  86. I have mine

    Indeed, although the quote by Daniel Patrick Moynihan immediately springs to mind.

    I’m not scoffing. I’m pointing out your blatant contradictions above,

  87. Who scoffs at any of those things?

    I don’t think that there is anyone here presently that has scoffed at them

    Many will – and should – criticize those who abuse our fighting men by sending them into unjust or unwise war, which has happened many times ( Spanish American war of territorial conquest, Vietnam, Iraq )

    Those who intentionally promote unnecessary war dishonor duty, honor and the country generally. May we all agree on this point?

    I’m not speaking of those who may have been wrong at a time.more of those who at all times aid ane abet the war machine ( John Bolton types, arms merchants )

  88. force should always be a last resort and never used lightly. But the use of force is sometimes the necessary option. and those that have ill intent need to understand that. If they do it will save lives. Mostly their own.

  89. Force should always be a last resort and never used lightly. But the use of force is sometimes the necessary option

    And who would argue against that?

    Even though it’s nothing whatsoever to do with your ‘Truth, Justice, and the American Way’ untruth above.

  90. Force was not the last resort And any of the three wars that I spoke of

  91. Wouldn’t using force as a last resort and never lightly negate the ‘you kill 1 of us we kill 1,000 of you’ doctrine?

  92. Noel,
    Sure will, mate. You coming over?

  93. Seimi, I hope to be there in the last week of October.

    I’d be really pleased if we could meet up for a drink (you and, as I said, any other ATWer in Belfast).
    Can I reach you through David?

  94. Forget about Belfast, I have had an offer to kiss Patrick’s ring and I ain’t missing out on that opportunity 😱

  95. Paul McMahon, on August 31st, 2019 at 4:25 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Wouldn’t using force as a last resort and never lightly negate the ‘you kill 1 of us we kill 1,000 of you’ doctrine?

    not at all…. Look we don’t do Wars of Aggression. We are reactive only even in preemption. The Vietnam War ripped this country apart everything changed and for the better. Then some idiot in the name of Allah coordinated an attack in the Heart of NY and DC. Iraq was just one front in an ongoing war.

  96. The Spanish-American war was a war of aggression, Based on a nonexistent bombing of a US warship by Spain, where the real reason was to see’s territory from Spain

    The Vietnam war was a war of aggression, Details which I’ve been shared here 1 million times. The fact that the US didn’t know what it was doing is no excuse

  97. Seize

  98. Not at all….

    I’m afraid it does Pat. Your wet dream punitive doctrine of 1,000% body count doesn’t suggest ultimate alternative or considered restraint.

    Look we don’t do Wars of Aggression

    Rubbish

    We are reactive only even in preemption

    Jesuitical rubbish.

  99. The French, as backed by the United States, split Vietnam into two countries

    That was pure interference and aggression In Vietnam’s internal affairs

    The French colonialists had no legitimate right to be in Vietnam in the first place

    The US was unwise to support them..

  100. and I guess I didn’t say vietnam changed everything……… or did you miss the 70s…. the game changed.

  101. Do we agree that both the Spanish American war and the Vietnam war were wars of aggression by the US?

  102. and then everything changed again on 9/11

  103. Phantom, on August 31st, 2019 at 6:54 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Do we agree that both the Spanish American war and the Vietnam war were wars of aggression by the US?

    without question

  104. The invasion of Afghanistan was a defensive reaction to 9\11 . The later invasion of Iraq was a war of aggression.

  105. no it wasn’t it was just one front in an ongoing war colm

  106. PVR 654

    Good man

    Colm 655

    I agree with both comments there also

    Iraq is a little more complicated than some of the other examples, Because under Saddam Hussein Iraq itself was an imperialist aggressor Who had invaded two neighboring countries for no good reason, And which had been a force for instability generally

    But the Americans the British and the others made a really big mistake. The only big beneficiaries were Iraqi Shiites and. Iran , And neither have sent us a thank you note the last time I looked

  107. yeah they want that thank you to be glowing……

  108. Noel,
    both Phantom & PaTroll have my email. Could one of you gents pass it on to Noel for me, please?

  109. Noel check your email

  110. Cheers, PaTroll.
    That still doesn’t make your nation all you say it is, by the way 😉

  111. Iraq is a little more complicated than some of the other examples, Because under Saddam Hussein Iraq itself was an imperialist aggressor Who had invaded two neighboring countries for no good reason, And which had been a force for instability generally

    So why did the US not invade Israel?

  112. Because the US is Israel’s bitch?

  113. Israel, with all its faults, is the best nation in the region.

    I’ll take Bibi over Assad, Saddam, Isis, and Hezbollah any day.

  114. “On a per capita basis, we’re not so impressive. The Scandinavians, Germans and Swiss give much more than we do per capita in government aid.”

    That’s government aid. It’s worth mentioning that in private charity the US ranks consistently highly:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index#World_Giving_Index_rankings

  115. Frank

    Correct

    —-

    And back to Israel

    As a general rule, the US should only go to war In defense of itself or of its allies

    Israel is not a threat to the United States or to any of its allies

  116. Israel, with all its faults, is the best nation in the region

    But the excuse you gave for Iraq was:

    Iraq itself was an imperialist aggressor Who had invaded two neighboring countries for no good reason, And which had been a force for instability generally

    Now, if that’s the reason you’ve given for the invasion Israel has done all that and much more.

  117. Iraq has invaded Kuwait, a friend.

    Israel hasn’t done anything of the sort.

    But I am not saying that Iraq was justified, So there’s no need to discuss this

  118. lmao…. now now boys

    Right now we’re trying to avoid the next front in this war. Not how I would do it, but progress is being made and the shit hasn’t hit the fan yet so we shall see….

  119. per capita my ass

  120. right now we have a ship sitting doing 1000 surgeries a day for the Venezuelans for gods sake the USNS Comfort while the Russian navy parked there does nothing.

  121. I’m amazed that the Russians could afford to make the trip in the first place

  122. Iraq has invaded Kuwait, a friend

    Oh rubbish.

    Hostilities of the Gulf War were suspended in 1991, twelve years before the Iraq invasion.

  123. Paul

    I have said that the Iraq war was a mistake. I have said it 1 billion times. You seem to have it in your mind that I am supporting the Iraq war in some way. I am not.

    I did say that Saddam Hussein had invaded two countries without any justification. Which is true.

    But I’m not justifying that war. Not not not. Trust that clarifies things.

  124. I did say that Saddam Hussein had invaded two countries without any justification. Which is true

    I know that you’re not justifying the war. I know that you were against the war but if that’s the reason you’re giving for the Iraq invasion, (twelve years after Gulf War hostilities had ceased), what I’m saying is Israel have done the same and more.

  125. Saddam supported terror and was a state sponsor of terror…. it was a justified front in the war and there is no questioning whether or not Iraq qualified to be one.

  126. Iran says ” thank you so much ”

    The elected government of Iraq is a great friend of Iran.

    Iran is Iraq’s largest trading partner.

    The two Shia powers are friendly now, when they used to be enemies, and have cooperated in attacking ISIS. ( Americans don’t like to talk about the highly significant role Iran played in decimating ISIS, but Iran was a major reason why ISIS lost its territory )

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/iran-deserves-credit-for-the-ruin-of-isis/

  127. No Phantom, the only person responsible for the demise of ISIS is the current and greatest President in American history. Never forget that. Everyone else on the planet messed up until he came along and MADE THE MIDDLE EAST GREAT AGAIN. Well that’s in his humble opinion 🙂

  128. I know a guy who works in the Trade Dept in Washington DC, and he in turn has friends in the White House.
    He told me that in all those weeks the MSM is unfairly reporting that Trump is away on some golf course or other, the President is actually away conducting Special Ops with undercover US forces in Iraq and eastern Syria. Trump actually volunteered to go as a simple soldier, demanding and expecting no special position or protection for himself. Instead he takes up a gun and goes out on missions killing IS fighters.

    He kills 100 of them for every 1 insult he gets from CNN. This is the only way to keep the peace with them, he says.

    He has instructed that this sideline activity is not to be reported and will appear only in an incredible autobiography to be published after his term of office has expired, which will no doubt get a trememdous prize for literature in Stockholm, wherever that is.

  129. Noel

    A perfectly plausible scenario but for one obvious flaw. Trump cannot do INCOGNITO.

    If he could bring cameras into his toilet he would, proudly exclaiming his dumps were the BIGGLIEST BESTEST Presidential ones EVER !

  130. Saddam supported terror and was a state sponsor of terror…. it was a justified front in the war and there is no questioning whether or not Iraq qualified to be one

    Two words Pat, Saudi Arabia.

    So, when’s the invasion?

  131. I would bomb the Saudi Oil fields at the drop of a hat….. why do you want them bombed Paul ?

    You object that we went into Iraq but you beg for us to topple Saudi Arabia… Why ?

    If in your view Iraq didn’t deserve toppling why does Saudi ?

    Please Elaborate on why you think the Saudis need to die.

  132. Firstly Pat I’m not ‘begging’ for anything. I’m giving an opinion on a politics conversation forum.

    The problem with reading is that you remember things and I remember the the reason given for the invasion of Iraq was some guff about weapons of mass destruction. Now, I know you’ll try and spin some rubbish about ‘regime change’ but here it is from your the President’s own lips:

    Members of the Congress of both political parties, and members of the United Nations Security Council, agree that Saddam Hussein is a threat to peace and must disarm. We agree that the Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons. Since we all agree on this goal, the issues is : how can we best achieve it?

    Many Americans have raised legitimate questions: about the nature of the threat; about the urgency of action — why be concerned now; about the link between Iraq developing weapons of terror, and the wider war on terror. These are all issues we’ve discussed broadly and fully within my administration. And tonight, I want to share those discussions with you.

    First, some ask why Iraq is different from other countries or regimes that also have terrible weapons. While there are many dangers in the world, the threat from Iraq stands alone — because it gathers the most serious dangers of our age in one place. Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction are controlled by a murderous tyrant who has already used chemical weapons to kill thousands of people. This same tyrant has tried to dominate the Middle East, has invaded and brutally occupied a small neighbor, has struck other nations without warning, and holds an unrelenting hostility toward the United States.

    By its past and present actions, by its technological capabilities, by the merciless nature of its regime, Iraq is unique. As a former chief weapons inspector of the U.N. has said, “The fundamental problem with Iraq remains the nature of the regime, itself. Saddam Hussein is a homicidal dictator who is addicted to weapons of mass destruction.”

    Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today — and we do — does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?

    Now, Saddam being a dictator with little regard for human rights and this claim also being applied to the House of Saudi is a conversation for another day but what gets to me is the absolute double standards employed by the US which makes their phony ‘war on terror’ an absolute and complete sham.

    The Saudi regime is every bit and more as bad as that of Saddam. They are the undisputed biggest financiers and promoters pf international Salafast Jihadi terrorism on the golobe and yet a Nelsonian blind eye is turned to their activities.

    I dont think ‘the Saudis need to die’ (that’ll be your fantasy scorched earth doctrine again), but what I do think is if that there’s some supposed ‘war on terror’ then the main promoters and funders of that terrorism should be made accountable in the way that others have

  133. the President never gave that reason……. that was the spin the Dems put on it to cover their vote…. Find me a clip where GW says it’s about wmd’s….. I’ll wait

  134. Paul.

    Good post mate. I totally agree.
    Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabian and financed with Saudi money, but the US chose to invade Iraq. I never understood that one.

  135. Here you are Pat, from four months ago:

    Tempers flared last week in a confrontation between Pompeo and the Democrat-run House foreign affairs committee, when legislators demanded to know why the administration appeared to be shielding a Saudi regime responsible for wholesale human rights abuses, mass civilian deaths in Yemen and the murder and dismemberment of Washington Post columnist and dissident Jamal Khashoggi.

    Brad Sherman, a California Democrat, told Pompeo: “If you cannot trust a regime with a bone saw, you should not them with nuclear weapons.”

    Sherman said the issuance of the seven permits, known as Part 810 authorisations, represented an effort by Trump and his son-in-law Jared Kushner to bypass Congress, and spare the Saudi monarchy the need to accept a formal agreement that would put strict limits on its nuclear programme.

    “It tells the country that if Jared and Donald Trump can transfer nuclear technology to the Saudis on seven occasions and not reveal the details to members of Congress with the highest national security clearance, even in special classified rooms – what are they hiding?” Sherman said in a telephone interview

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/04/saudi-arabias-first-nuclear-reactor-nearly-finished-sparking-fears-over-safeguards

    Iraq is invaded because of phantom weapons of mass destruction while the biggest funders and promoters of terrorism on the planet are allowed and assisted by your President to develop a nuclear reactor.

  136. No we invaded Afghanistan because that’s where OBL was we Invaded Iraq as a continuation of the stated Bush Doctrine.

    I am all for bombing Mecca, Riyad, and the Oil Fields but you call me a bloody bastard…. while you two advocate for war with Saudi Arabia. tsk tsk gentleman

  137. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HbP8HGxrgo8

    TV or Internet must not have read Pennsylvania in 2002

    The Iraq war was all about WMD

    You seem to forget that everybody else here was alive during that time and heard WMD on the news from GWB and others at the time over and over and over

  138. The President never gave that reason

    Oh for Chrit’s sake man. From your former President’s own lips:

    The threat comes from Iraq. It arises directly from the Iraqi regime’s own actions — its history of aggression, and its drive toward an arsenal of terror. Eleven years ago, as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. It has given shelter and support to terrorism, and practices terror against its own people. The entire world has witnessed Iraq’s eleven-year history of defiance, deception and bad faith

    The supposed threat of Iraq’s drive toward an arsenal of terror was the rationale given for invasion.

  139. Bush on weapons of mass destruction:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbP8HGxrgo8

  140. Sorry phantom I posted that before I refreshed the thread.

  141. you’re hearing what you want to hear Phantom….. he still didn’t say that was THE reason nice try though.

  142. I am all for bombing Mecca, Riyad, and the Oil Fields but you call me a bloody bastard

    I have never, ever called you a bloody bastard and it’s unimportant what you think personally. You contradict yourself and your support of the supposed war on terror by consistent support of a regime which turns a blind eye to the biggest terrorist enablers on the planet.

  143. //it to cover their vote…. Find me a clip where GW says it’s about wmd’s….. I’ll wait//

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WejYdT3Lof8

  144. Phantom,

    You seem to forget that everybody else here was alive during that time and heard WMD on the news from GWB and others at the time over and over and over

    Certainly the case here in the UK. Tony Blair and Bush never shut up about WMDs on the television leading up to the war in Iraq.

  145. //it to cover their vote…. Find me a clip where GW says it’s about wmd’s….. I’ll wait//

    Still waiting?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbP8HGxrgo8

  146. 5. SOUNDBITE (English) George W. Bush, US President:
    “I take the threat very seriously. I take the fact that he develops weapons of mass destruction very seriously. I remember the fact that he has invaded two countries before. I know for a fact that he’s poisoned his own people. He doesn’t believe in the worth of each individual. He doesn’t believe in public dissent. I look forward to a dialogue.”

    7. SOUNDBITE (English) George W. Bush, US President:
    “I will remind them that history has called us into action, that we love freedom, that we will be deliberate, patient, strong in the values that we adhere to. But we can’t let the world’s worst leaders blackmail, threaten, hold freedom loving nations hostage with the world’s worst weapons.”

    US President George W. Bush continued to press his case against Iraq on Thursday, as his critics called for details of the threats that Iraq poses to the world.
    Speaking in Louisville, Kentucky, Bush reiterated his belief that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein poses a threat and said he plans to discuss the issue with world leaders.
    Bush has already said he will outline his case against Saddam in a speech on 12 September at the United Nations.
    In his speech on Thursaday, Bush said he would discuss Iraq on Friday by telephone with the presidents of France and Russia and the premier of China.
    Mr Bush will then meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair at Camp David on Saturday.
    Bush said he will remind the leaders that history has called the US and its allies into action, and that Saddam Hussein cannot be allowed to hold other nations hostage.
    Meanwhile, as Bush prepares to take his case internationally, support at home appears to be waning.
    A new poll shows American public support for attacking Iraq has dropped over the last month to its lowest levels since the war on terrorism began.
    The ABC News poll showed that 56 percent of those polled favoured military action against Iraq, down from 69 percent early in August. Just 39 percent of those polled supported military action against Iraq, even if US allies are opposed.
    Just a day after the Bush administration began a dialogue with Congress over the situation in Iraq, leaders in both the President’s Republican party and the opposition Democratic parties have expressed reservations.
    On Thursday, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said Bush had yet to make the case that an attack against Baghdad is crucial.

    context is everything and the fact that he mentioned WMD in one speech doesn’t make it the reason…. as I said nice try.

  147. 3 idiots put up the same clip and show that all 3 are just that idiots….. lmao

  148. Tony Blair on WMD below

    Blair and Bush gave other reasons, such as that Saddam was a cruel dictator, which was true, but WMD was the main reason. It gave all the urgency to the call to war

    https://www.azquotes.com/author/1483-Tony_Blair/tag/weapons-of-mass-destruction

  149. … and from the man himself

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiw0ILaXJf0

  150. Ok so lets roll with your fantasy…….

    The Iraq invasion was approved of by the Congress and the UN. Both could have stopped it but they didn’t they approved…..

  151. Still waiting?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zRAkBAwWpo

  152. Patrick has never heard of Colin Powell

    Is unaware of the Powell speech to the UN

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FTeJWQMpX0E

  153. Deaf, blind, and very, very dumb.

  154. Patrick

    3 idiots put up the same clip and show that all 3 are just that idiots….. lmao

    I see you being nice didn’t last very long Patrick.

  155. oooohhh Iraq invasion bad America evil….. all those poor Iraqi’s innocent slaughter…. boo hoo

    You’re a pack of fools. Iraq was a supporter of terror, we went in dismantled it and then Obama abandoned it to the Iranians.

  156. WMDs were the main reason given for the war in Iraq. Doubling down and claiming that’s not true Patrick just makes you look very very foolish.

  157. Who said I was going to be nice……

  158. “I never throw the first punch…”

    Troll, numerous times over the years.

    Patrick Van Roy, on September 1st, 2019 at 3:59 PM Said:

    3 idiots put up the same clip and show that all 3 are just that idiots….. lmao

    Also Troll, today.

  159. Dave Alton, on September 1st, 2019 at 4:07 PM Said: Edit Comment
    WMDs were the main reason given for the war in Iraq. Doubling down and claiming that’s not true Patrick just makes you look very very foolish.

    Dave this argument has been made since before the first foot set foot in Iraq. My position then was that the wmd line was leftist spin and I stick by it today…..

  160. Patrick

    Who said I was going to be nice……

    You did, repeatedly. You always claim you’re never the first to call people names and you never throw the first punch.

  161. You’re a pack of fools. Iraq was a supporter of terror

    Was it? So when’s the invasion of Saudi Arabia?

  162. No one cares about that terrorism supporting bullshit. That was way down the list

    This was all about WMD

    Obama did not create the warm relationship between Iraq and Iran. The Iraqi people and Iraqi voters created that relationship.

    I thought one of the reasons for this war was to bring some form of democracy to Iraq. Well guess what buddy. The Iraqi voters have spoken. They want to a good relationship with Iran.

  163. Patrick

    Dave this argument has been made since before the first foot set foot in Iraq. My position then was that the wmd line was leftist spin and I stick by it today…..

    So when I saw Tony Blair and Bush on television talking repeatedly about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq this was all in my imagination? As well as the imagination of millions of other people and archive news footage.

  164. GWB sent Secretary of State Colin Powell to give the WMD speech in front of the world at the UN for no reason at all

    Because Patrick said so

  165. Was it? So when’s the invasion of Saudi Arabia?

    If I had my way it would have been 19yrs ago….

    At least we have taken away a large slice of their economy and we will be taking more and more each year…..

    and gentleman since you consider my remarks “Punches” I apologize

  166. I don’t consider your remarks punches Patrick, that’s your words not mine.
    I’m just pointing out that for a man who claims not to be the first to insult others you’re usually the first to insult others.
    I’m not offended or bothered by any insults I receive on ATW.

  167. Context is everything and the fact that he mentioned WMD in one speech doesn’t make it the reason

    He cites WMD in multiple speeches, one of which I link to above where he explains it as the rationale for invasion.

    My position then was that the wmd line was leftist spin and I stick by it today…..

    Yes, you stick to it, despite all the evidence to the contrary, because to deviate from it would negate your narrative.

  168. If I had my way it would have been 19yrs ago….

    Pat, maybe you missed this:

    It’s unimportant what you think personally. You contradict yourself and your support of the supposed war on terror by consistent support of a regime which turns a blind eye to the biggest terrorist enablers on the planet.

    What’s your opinion on the biggest terrorist promoters on the planet being allowed and assisted by your President and his staff to develop a nuclear reactor?

    Brad Sherman, a California Democrat, told Pompeo: “If you cannot trust a regime with a bone saw, you should not them with nuclear weapons.”

    Sherman said the issuance of the seven permits, known as Part 810 authorisations, represented an effort by Trump and his son-in-law Jared Kushner to bypass Congress, and spare the Saudi monarchy the need to accept a formal agreement that would put strict limits on its nuclear programme.

    “It tells the country that if Jared and Donald Trump can transfer nuclear technology to the Saudis on seven occasions and not reveal the details to members of Congress with the highest national security clearance, even in special classified rooms – what are they hiding?” Sherman said in a telephone interview

  169. I find it insulting that 3 of you would paste the same link and not listen to it in context.

    Noel check your email

  170. Yes yes it’s horrible the US just refuses to bomb saudi arabia……

    I don’t see any of your nations doing anything against anyone let alone the Saudis…. unless of course you do it hiding under our skirt……

  171. Yes yes it’s horrible the US just refuses to bomb saudi arabia……

    No it’s not Pat but it’s certainly contradictory pretending to fight a sham war on terror while not only turning a blind eye to the biggest terrorist enablers on the planet but actually assisting them in developing a nuclear reactor.

    I don’t see any of your nations doing anything against anyone let alone the Saudis

    Maybe they’re afraid if they act against the Saudis America will bomb them?

  172. we are not turning a blind eye though…. we are using them on the Iranian front, but I would be happy if SA was put at the top of the list of terror supporting countries and was treated accordingly.

  173. We are not turning a blind eye though

    Oh don’t talk rubbish. They’re much more culpable in their enabling of international Salafist Jihadi terror than Iraq or Iran.

    Your country uses incredible hypocritical double standards on its self proclaimed fake, phony ‘war on terror’, even going so far as to assist the biggest terror enablers to build a nuclear reactor and your comments above regarding supporting terrorism palpably demonstrate this.

    As to what you think should be done.

    It’s unimportant what you think personally. You contradict yourself and your support of the supposed war on terror by consistent support of a regime which turns a blind eye to the biggest terrorist enablers on the planet.

  174. Patrick

    Go on, have some courage to express some criticism of Trump’s foreign policy. You don’t have to pretend American policy in the Middle East is perfect. You can dissent a bit. It won’t make you a bad person you know 😉