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WHEN IS ENOUGH ENOUGH?

By Pete Moore On October 10th, 2019

All it took for the anti-war crowd to learn to love bombs and bullets was for the President to announce “no more war”. The US (and the UK) have been mired in the Middle East for decades, but for what? For all the trillions spent and the oceans of blood spilled, the region is as backward, violent and as hopeless as ever.

I thought he spoke about his position quite well yesterday, but he seemed in a rare sombre mood.

Guy Verhofstadt yesterday criticised the President’s decision to withdraw from Syria. Fine, so send the Belgian army to help the Kurds. The Belgian army can stay there for fifty years to clean up the mess resulting from it, and the mess resulting from the next mess.

One day someone has to say that enough is enough. Experience demonstrates that endless wars and occupations do not lead to any conclusion. They only lead to endless wars and occupations. The only thing which can solve the Middle East is for the locals to grow up and take responsibility for it.

70 Responses to “WHEN IS ENOUGH ENOUGH?”

  1. The only thing which can solve the Middle East is for the locals to grow up and take responsibility for it.

    ISIS accepts your challenge, with thanks.

  2. Yes, the invasion of Iraq and the genesis of ISIS being al-Qaeda in Iraq has nothing to do with it at all of course.

  3. “What shall I do then with Jesus, which is called Christ?”
    — Pontius Pilate

  4. Actually Belgium did have some troops helping Kurds. Trump of course said today that any escaped ISIS members will be Europe’s problem. Enjoy your hero’ love Pete.

  5. Trump pulls troops out? Media: “Vile Trump leaves Kurds to their fate”
    Trump increases troop numbers? Media: “Warmongering Trump stokes aggression, WW3 closer than ever” etc.
    Trump singlehandedly cures cancer, malaria and alzheimers? Media: “Worldwide celebrations as hero Trump cures…” only joking of course, you know full well what the headlines would be. “Diabetes sufferers outraged as divisive Trump leaves them out”.
    REAL unspoken headline: “Trump is an anti-globalist and a thorn in our side. We hate everything he does, or fails to do”.

  6. I wonder if here was ever some real awful catastrophe in Ireland, would the US help us?

    After all, we didn’t help them in Normandy.

  7. Trump is an anti-globalist Brexi? When did that start?

    I’d call someone with business interests on at least three different continents very much a globalist.

  8. Noel – we never sent help when you were occupied by Boyzone.

  9. I try very hard not to suggest a Trump supporter might not be the brightest bulb. But if they say he is anti globalist I find my efforts wasted.

  10. Anti globalist is a bit of a slogan with these guys

    ” Utterly disloyal “ might be a bit more appropriate for this guy.

    Worst president ever, not even close, and it could get much worse.

  11. I’ve been trying to think of how Ireland ever helped America, and to be honest it’s a hard job.
    I don’t mean all those wonderful people that emigrated and bolstered the US population, or cultural things like Halloween or St Patrick’s Day, but in a material sense.

    I could only think of the Irishman of some sort who invented the submarine for the Union side in their civil war and then Bertie allowing military flights to refuel in Shannon. But that’s really very little. Clinton’s great contribution to peace in NI in itself more than paid for all that.

    As with so many other things, Ireland’s struggle for independence is probably at the root of this. If President Wilson had supported Ireland’s claim to nationhood in 1919 – Ireland was a perfect example for application of his 14 points, but they were reserved only for the subject nations under the defeated powers – or if they’d given us more backing in NI over the decades, that probably would have changed everything and Ireland would now be in NATO.

  12. Paul (I sense deja-vu here), seeking to freely trade with many other countries whilst still maintaining one’s own borders and independent nationality might be termed a sort of ‘economic globalism’ but that isn’t what I meant; I meant ‘political globalist’ as in one who seeks to abolish the idea (and the practicalities) of the individual nation state, and thus to move towards the ‘new world order’ of a global government. Pres. Trump is clearly not of that mindset and that is what I mean by calling him an anti-globalist. As a Brexiteer, I also wish to maintain and indeed increase free trade between the UK and many other countries including members of the EU but I completely oppose a total political integration and single EU-wide governance.
    I thought that this differentiation was by now fully understood, but perhaps it isn’t?
    I thought that one of Hungary’s ministers (I forget her name) explained this concept very well in a recent interview, when she said (not quoted verbatim): “Basically, Who am I? I would answer this question by starting from the inside and working outwards: First, I am ‘me’, then I think of my family and identify myself as part of that, then I think of my town, then my country, and then finally in terms of the world in general. I don’t start by saying something nebulous and vague like “I am a citizen of the Milky Way” and then work inwards from there”.

  13. I’ve been trying to think of how Ireland ever helped America

    St Brendan being the forst European to discover the bloody place? 😉

  14. I think Irishmen made up about 7-8% of the Union Army during the US Civil War. In fact more Irishmen fought in the US Civil War than in World War 2. And not many more fought in World War 1 than in the US Civil War.

  15. “I meant ‘political globalist’ as in one who seeks to abolish the idea (and the practicalities) of the individual nation state, and thus to move towards the ‘new world order’ of a global government. Pres. Trump is clearly not of that mindset and that is what I mean by calling him an anti-globalist. “

    Neither is anyone else. The New World Order being either a WCW wrestling stable or an antisemitic conspiracy theory. I imagine for the sake of this conversation that you are referring to the former. And no one wants Hulk Hogan to be running the government.

  16. The Republic was neutral but leaned significantly towards the US during WW2 and the Cold War. And it supplied essentially an air base during the Afghan and Iraq wars.

  17. NWO global government?

    Are you eating magic mushrooms? Who would ever be in favour of such a ridiculous concept?

    So why is economic globalisation good but political globalisation bad?

  18. Shannon remains useful to the US military today.

    It’s also helps the west Ireland economy, and it also pisses off the pinky in the air latte sipping lefty types in Ireland, so everyone wins

  19. // And it supplied essentially an air base during the Afghan and Iraq wars.//

    Which reminds me, the Kurds fought on the US side during the 1st Iraq war. AFAIR, Kurdish fighters were the mainstay of the “northern front”, with he US supplying the materiel

    I wonder would the US defend Japan if it were attacked by North Korea. As far as I recall, like the Kurds, Japan didn’t help the US in WW2.

  20. The likes of Obama, Hilary C, Merkel, Macron, most of the UK pretend Parliament and ‘Supreme Court’ etc, are all clearly working towards an aim of a certain sort, and the likes of Trump, Farage, Orban, etc are clearly working towards the diametric opposite. Call it a ‘one world government’ or anything else, that’s mere semantics. I favour the latter group and oppose the former.
    Economic free trade is good because it’s free. Political globalism is bad because its a dictatorship and is the opposite of freedom. Do I need more chalk?
    ‘Extinction Conformism’ had a rather good slogan on one of their conformist banners the other day; “Respect Existence or Expect Resistance”. I rather liked that, misguided though it was, and I propose a similar motto for the 17.4m: “You disregard our votes: We’ll disregard your laws”. Sounds good, huh?

  21. “Call it a ‘one world government’ or anything else, that’s mere semantics. I favour the latter group and oppose the former.”

    Well two of the three seem to working with a clear goal in mind and that goal seems to be personal dictatorship.

  22. The likes of Obama, Hilary C, Merkel, Macron, most of the UK pretend Parliament and ‘Supreme Court’ etc, are all clearly working towards an aim of a certain sort, and the likes of Trump, Farage, Orban, etc are clearly working towards the diametric opposite.

    So, anyone you don’t like is the enemy? What about people like Bernie Saunders, AOC, Justin Trudeau, Nicolás Maduro etc. Are they one world government NWOers too?

    Economic free trade is good because it’s free.

    International trade is never free. That’s why there’s things like taxes, import & export tariffs etc.

  23. Seamus, by “two of the three” I assume you mean Trump/Farage/Orban. Have any of these advocated abolishing or indefinitely postponing elections? Or have any of them been known to utter in a Brian Blessed style voice “Bwaaah-haah hah-haa! Obey me or die, you unworthy untermensch” lately? Certainly it is true that certain people in the UK “parliament” have recently blocked the holding of a free election after another person openly called for one. Who are the dictators in this scenario?

  24. “Have any of these advocated abolishing or indefinitely postponing elections?”

    No but then I don’t think anyone else has.

    “Or have any of them been known to utter in a Brian Blessed style voice “Bwaaah-haah hah-haa! Obey me or die, you unworthy untermensch” lately?”

    Not sure about the voice but that definitely seems up both Trump and Orban’s alley.

    “Certainly it is true that certain people in the UK “parliament” have recently blocked the holding of a free election after another person openly called for one. Who are the dictators in this scenario?”

    Why does Donald Trump not hold the Presidential election next Tuesday? Because it is scheduled for 2020. Elections in the UK happen every five years. That is what the law says.

  25. True, Seamus. And John Major can prorogue parliament for whatever reason he wishes and that’s just fine. It set a precedent, you could say, which should be followed. (Of course, he was not the first to do so, but all the others who did so and were not challenged, etc…) But wait! What’s this? EU supremacy challenged? Oh no, we can’t have that, quick, we must declare it unlawful!
    “What the law says” – as if “law” is set in stone by some higher “gods”, sitting in altruistic, impartial judgement! Utter Nonsense! Laws and precedents are set by people, and people have agenda, and answer to their paymasters, as always.

  26. John Major didn’t prorogue Parliament for longer however (though his prorogation was done for political reasons). He brought forward a general election from the 22nd May 1997 to the 1st May 1997. So while he avoided parliamentary scrutiny to protect a number of corrupt Tory MPs the major impact of it was shortening his time as Prime Minister by three weeks.

    And the recent prorogation wasn’t anything to do with Brexit (Boris said so). So how could deeming the prorogation unlawful have anything to do with Brexit?

    “Laws and precedents are set by people, and people have agenda, and answer to their paymasters, as always.”

    And what paymasters would they be? Are we veering into another antisemitic conspiracy theory here?

  27. At least, Seamus, and I’ll give you this, the Irish saw through all this bullcrap in the last century and they took action against it. Now (and it may give you a bit of schadenfreude to hear it) us Brits are now the Irish in respect to the EU. We now know how you felt. Serves us right too. I hope we wake up, as you did.

  28. Last time I checked Ireland didn’t possess a veto of every major decision taken by the UK. Ireland didn’t get to appoint a cabinet member of her own choosing. And when a significant proportion of Ireland wished to remain in the UK the result was that not only did that proportion stay in the UK but some areas in between remained as well.

    So by that analogy the UK can leave the European Union as long as Northern Ireland, Scotland, London, and lets throw in Wales (I know they voted Leave but then Tyrone and Fermanagh voted to leave the UK but were forced to Remain), get to stay. You ok with that?

  29. The New World Order being either a WCW wrestling stable or an antisemitic conspiracy theory

    Here’s George H W Bush declaring a “New World Order”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DtEcZ3cfg4

  30. (Edit: not meaning to say that I commend or support violence against civilian targets in any way, as many say the IRA did – just a general acceptance that there’s only so far political resistance will get you).

  31. Brexitannia it’s good to see you on these pages.

  32. “Here’s George H W Bush declaring a “New World Order”:”

    And? It refers, in Bush’s speech, to one governed by the rule of law. It certainly doesn’t give any indication of global government.

  33. Whatever doubts lingered, however, evaporated this week in the wake of Trump’s unconscionable announcement of the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria’s northern border, which amounted to a green light for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to launch his long-awaited offensive against the Kurds. Trump not only abandoned a loyal ally, which paid for the U.S. campaign against Islamic State with the blood of its valiant soldiers, to a gruesome fate; he also proclaimed his desire to abandon the Middle East as a whole to the sinister designs of the forces that are in it and surrounding it.

    But even when Trump is being viewed by both allies and enemies of Israel as a paper tiger, Netanyahu has no choice but to continue riding it, because, as the original Chinese saying goes, the alternative of getting off is far more daunting. It would mean confessing to his own abysmal failure.

    Netanyahu bet the house on Trump, lauded him as Israel’s lord and savior and even used him as a central prop in two election campaigns this year. If, as many expect, Israelis are doomed to go to the ballot for the third time, it is unlikely that Netanyahu and his Likud Party will put up the same gigantic posters that featured a smiling Trump as Netanyahu’s best friend forever.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-trump-s-kurdish-treachery-casts-netanyahu-as-lone-rider-on-paper-tiger-1.7965590

    Haartetz, Israel

  34. Seamus, just one point re your 11:28pm – you somehow ascribe or assume some degree of antisemitism to my undertone. I think I’ve said something on this before but you might have missed it so no problem, but I want to reiterate: I am a full supporter of Israel. I disagree very strongly with people who blame “the Jews” for what’s going on in Europe. I regard Jews/Israelites as a very advanced and forward-thinking culture and I respect their traditions, out of which has sprang the Christian tradition/culture, ie the culture upon which our European First World is built. I am totally pro-Israel and am totally anti those cultures which are anti-Israel. I hope that puts to bed that misconception.

  35. That very well maybe the case Brexitannia but you have at least twice on this thread alone employed old conspiracy theories dripping in antisemitism (New World Order global government, individuals doing the bidding of their paymasters etc…).

  36. Noel when is the ROI sending troops to help the Kurds ? I don’t see them stepping up, or Germany. Nor do I see anyone in NI organizing to go help.

    The USs aids everyone regardless of what they are, we aided the Soviets when we were pointing missiles at each other and there was a possibility of firing them.

    To deny the aid we give which many here are doing is just stupid.

    Military Aid or use of our Military is not AID it’s WAR.

    How and where we give our lives and our guns is OUR decision not yours.

    You bitched when we went into the ME now you’re bitching because we are leaving.

    Trump is making the same mistake Obama made, most of you praised Obama for it. It was a disaster, Trump pulling out will lead to the same disaster.

    I have said both Presidents were wrong….. why have so many of you only said one is wrong?

  37. NWO doesn’t necessarily mean any anti semitism.

    Prominent politicians have in their unguarded moments spoken open borders, etc. It’s a real thing.

    My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere.”

    Hillary Clinton, 2013

    And Beto, and others.

  38. Obama followed a plan set by treaty by GWB. ( SOF Treaty between Iraq and USA )

    Trump followed his own plan here.

  39. “Prominent politicians have in their unguarded moments spoken open borders, etc. It’s a real thing.”

    Free trade, freedom of movement, common markets etc… is not global government. The fact is that the majority of the New World Order conspiracy theory stuff is nothing more than a modern rehashing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

  40. see there Phantom goes…. it was Bush’s plan…….

  41. Support for free movement of tens or hundreds millions of people from the poor world to the rich world is as ” new world order ” and destructive of existing order as you can get.

    And Hillary and Beto and others, here and there, are all for it.

    Let’s not bulllshit around on this.

    You may say that she didn’t say what she said but she said it.

  42. Ahh, OK, yes, I read this often on newspaper comment sections, there’s a great deal of people who are of the same broad political view as myself who see the Jews as the hidden culripts in all of this. I can sympathise that you’d perhaps see me as sharing that view. I don’t. As far as I can tell it seems that certain persons who happen to be Jews or of Jewish descent (Soros eg) are the active participants in the pro-globalist…sorry I mean pro-POLITICAL globalist movement towards a OWG as I see it, but I don’t ascribe their Jewishness as the main factor in their motivations. I count Tony Blair as one of these pro-globalists and he’s a Roman Catholic as far as I recall.

  43. And Soros is a globalist and a meddler in countries that are not his own.

    No one with one brain cell could say otherwise

  44. “Support for free movement of tens or hundreds millions of people from the poor world to the rich world is as ” new world order ” and destructive of existing order as you can get.”

    a) I don’t think anyone has advocated for the movement of hundreds of millions of people from anywhere to anywhere. b) It largely isn’t destructive of the existing order. It is actually the only way in which the existing order can possibly survive. The simple fact is that people in the west are not having enough kids. And we are living longer. Which means we have fewer productive people as a proportion of the total population. It is this reason that many of the social safety nets are breaking down (too many pensioners and not enough workers). The only way to offset that is to bring in more people to work. Offsetting it through increased birthrates hasn’t worked (not least because in a free and democratic society forcing people to have kids isn’t possible, and encouraging them to have kids hasn’t worked).

    ” I don’t.”

    Fair enough.

    “sorry I mean pro-POLITICAL globalist movement towards a OWG as I see it,”

    I don’t think there is evidence of anyone working towards one world government. I think there are people who feel there should be more international cooperation sure. But not a singular world government.

  45. “And Soros is a globalist and a meddler in countries that are not his own.”

    Such as? The main countries he seems to be “meddling” in are Hungary and the United States. Two countries in which he has citizenship of.

  46. Seamus, alright, let’s say it’s circumstancial evidence, no more than that. To give an example, if you read the USA press you’ll see that many of the same issues are being enforced by broadly speaking “the left” into the political realm at the same time as they’re being enforced over here, eg this “multi-transgender” rubbish. Eg, Boys “self-identifying” as girls being allowed into restrooms of the opposite gender. Quite a coincidence that this is springing up in USA politics (being encouraged by the Dems) at the same time as its being encouraged over here by their equivalents (the pro-EU liberals). I don’t think its a coincidence at all; I think that certain like-minded movements are acting in a very co-ordinated way across the globe, and that they’re more than just like-minded, they have a unified purpose in mind. And it’s not one that ordinary people want to have imposed upon them.
    I know which side I’m on.

  47. He meddled in Russia

  48. “He meddled in Russia”

    Well Russia has spent the majority of his life meddling in Soros’ birth country and has recently begun to meddle in his adopted country. Let’s call fair fair. And you seem to be saying that arguing for democracy is meddling.

    “I don’t think its a coincidence at all”

    I don’t think it is a coincidence but I also don’t think it is coordination either. Cultural norms change across time and often, in similarly minded places, change in the same way. Look at gay rights. The same arguments and debates happened all throughout the western world. It wasn’t coordination. It is that similar peoples came to similar conclusions. Many social advancements were opposed at the time they advanced despite being broadly accepted now. While gay rights arguments are still a thing the majority of people aren’t in anyway supportive of going back to anti-sodomy laws and Section 28.

    And just out of interest what is your opposition to transgenderism?

  49. He meddled in China

  50. “He meddled in China”

    And? Do you think that NGOs shouldn’t work to spread liberal democracy to places that don’t have it?

  51. Maybe he’s the best guy who ever lived

    I only note that he is a billionaire who meddles a lot

    How can we criticize Russia for meddling When we allow our citizens to be very involved in the internal affairs of others

  52. “How can we criticize Russia for meddling When we allow our citizens to be very involved in the internal affairs of others”

    Because Russia’s meddling is underhanded and secretive. And Russia is a dictatorship. And encouraging the rule of law, human rights, and democracy is not meddling.

  53. It might be “ good meddling that we like “ but meddling it is

  54. everybody meddles

  55. For fucks sake, Pete – Trump moved fifty/a hundred military guys to another part of Syria. He’s not ending America’s wars abroad. He got rolled by Erdogan because he’s a goddamn idiot.

  56. “He got rolled by Erdogan because he’s a goddamn idiot.” Was that the reason or did it involve Trump’s business interests in Turkey? I think there was more to it than Erdogan saying would you kindly move out of the way as we have plans. Trump is a wheeler dealer who gave Erdogan something valuable and he would expect a “favor” in return while leaving the Kurds, formerly loyal and brave US allies, to Turkish slaughter.

  57. It might be “ good meddling that we like “ but meddling it is

    Phantom, I once worked in a Community Restorative Programme in West Belfast which was funded by Atlantic Philanthropies founded by the magnificent Chuck Feeney.

    Was Feeney ‘meddling’ in the NI state?

    Are the Christian churches ‘meddling’ when the send overseas missionaries to countries in continental Africa & Asia?

    Prominent politicians have in their unguarded moments spoken open borders, etc. It’s a real thing

    You’re trying to equate facilitating movement of trade, services & people with a ‘New World Order’ and ‘one world government’ ?

  58. “Experience demonstrates that endless wars and occupations do not lead to any conclusion. They only lead to endless wars and occupations. ”

    The British have been proving that for centuries.

  59. Eighteen years isn’t an ” endless war ” in any event.

    The enemy thinks in spans of centuries, tweeting celebrities have a 15 minute perspective

  60. Trump is sending 1500 troops to Saudi as per today’s announcement. I suppose 24 hours isn’t too soon for Pete to change his tune and applaud the move.

  61. Yes

    We shouldn’t lift a finger to help the Kurds, who lost 11,000 men and women fighting alongside us against ISIS.

    But we should send troops to prop up the fat and worthless Saudi military and their terrorist symp government.

    Everyone knows that.

  62. Well there is a difference….. The troops in N Syria were protecting the Kurds. These new Troops are protecting the Oil Fields.

  63. The Trump Doctrine

    Everything is a transaction. No loyalty to anyone, foreign or domestic.

  64. The Business of America is Business.

  65. You’ll be waiting longer than that, Mrs Mahons.

  66. the name of the whistle blower is floating around… unconfirmed of course. Eric Ciaramella a former NSC spook assigned to the WH during the Obama Admin and worked directly with Vice President Biden.

    be interesting if confirmed.

  67. Who knows who Mark Felt was….. Phantom ?

  68. nope

  69. “Who knows who Mark Felt was”. Deep Throat.

  70. very good…..

    He was 2nd in command under J Edgar Hoover and when Hoover died he expected to get Hoovers job. Nixon blocked him and created a bitter leaker. That crossing of one person brought down a presidency.

    Trumps crossed a lot of people.

    He better be Mr Clean.

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