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From Messi to Messy

By Mahons On October 15th, 2019

Spanish Bombs? Well foam bullets at the minute as Spain is experiencing some protests and angst regarding separatism and sentencing (i was alerted by our ATW man in Spain). I offer this post not to provide analysis, but to receive analysis.
So far in the remains to be seen, no Franco sightings.

102 Responses to “From Messi to Messy”

  1. I don’t know if I can shed any light on what’s already been said Mahons.

    At the moment there are tens of thousands of protestors and thousands of cops at the Catalan Parliament. Helicopters are in the sky and ambulances are on the ground.

    The news is saying that there are both cop and protestor injuries.

  2. The Messi question is the most important

    If Catalonia gains independence do Barcelona end up in a Catalonia league that they win every year but don’t get to play Real Madrid?

    No more El Classico?

  3. //No more El Classico?//

    Convincing argument for Catalan independence in itself.

  4. Locking up their leaders for 10 years + is a red rag to a bull if you pardon the metaphor.
    The judges/politicians knew that aswell. Stupid thing to do , really dumb dumb

  5. An absolutely heavy handed reaction to organising a non recognised, non – binding exercise on political opinion Kurt. Sanchez has already said that they won’t serve al their sentence but the petty vindictiveness of the PP has been swift, they’ve been trying in Parliament to close doors on Sanchez granting indulto (a repreive) and have said that the will lobby to remove the violence element necessary to be charged with sedition.

    And it has to be said that the EU’s inaction and relative silence over Spain’s violent and judicial heavy handedness has been a fucking disgrace too.

  6. Although I don’t know much about the Catalonians’ claims/desires for independence (what is there to know at the end of the day? Group of people with unique culture/heritage seek independence from state-imposed hegemony…) at least I suppose the “Spanish” (read: EU Region #8) response is honest and leaves the insurrectionists in no doubt as to what they’re up against: Kill the separatists! Crush them! Over here, the powers-that-be are still trying their best to make us cling to the illusion of democracy. Trust Boris to deliver! That’s a wise tactic, as we Brexiteers won’t rise up en-masse until we’re stripped of that illusion and see what we’re actually up against.

  7. Fuck’s sake. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to turn this into a Brexit comparison.

    When you’ve got a vicious bastard police force instilled with a legacy of over thirty five years of dictatorship, and I mean real dictatorship, beating fuck out of everything in their way then you might begin to have a comparison.

  8. Fair point, Paul, granted. But there is a certain degree of analogy to be made I think, although the details are different.

  9. There is no degree of analogy to be made:

    When you’ve got a vicious bastard police force instilled with a legacy of over thirty five years of dictatorship, and I mean real dictatorship, beating fuck out of everything in their way then you might begin to have a comparison.

    Do you really thnk that people who are at this moment being hospitalised give a shit about Boris Johnson or Brexit?

    The world doesn’t begin and end at Brit politics and Christ knows there’s been enough said about Brexit on these pages to leave one unconnected thread untouched by it.

  10. Blimey, get back to me when your menstrual cycle is over. I never said that the two situations are identical, just that there’s a certain analogy that can be made (after all, isn’t Spain a member of the EU? Then isn’t any separatist group up against the EU insofar as they’re against “Spain” such as it is?) I also think that the Brexit “movement” as such, is somewhat analogous to the Protestant Reformation, although not precisely the same thing. It’s an opinion, a pondering.

  11. There is no degree of analogy to be made save that in some ‘world revolves around us’ self centered imagination.

  12. Such silly people. Only the Spanish parliament is properly qualified and constituted to discuss these complicated things.

  13. Except it wasn’t the Spanish Parliament which imposed the sentence Pete.

  14. can we talk about the border down the Irish Sea, seems to be the one they’re agreeing on at the negotiations?

  15. And I say that there IS a certain analogy that can be drawn. (Love how pro-EU federalists are always anxious to state that “national” laws are being followed, completely ignoring that the EU has surreptitiously ingratiated its officials into every area of “national” life so that it SEEMS to the innocent bystander that nothing has changed and that no treachery is being imposed – “Parliament is supreme” (albeit enforced by outsiders who have wormed their way & their agenda into that parliament)
    but we see right through this facade, and it shall not stand.
    Best of luck to the Catalonians and Basques, but it’s untrue to assert that they stand against “Spain” per-se. “Spain” is an EU member and so they stand against the EU first and foremost. Once free of that verminous flag, then they can start to ferment their own freedom.

  16. The Catalans and Basques are very much pro EU Brexi but how about commenting on people being given prison sentences from 8 – 13 years for organising a non – recognised, non – binding act of political preference rather than raising the ghost of Hari?

  17. What happened to harri

    He ghosted us

  18. If the Catalans and Basques are pro-EU then why are they protesting at all? They are already compleely part of what they want to be. What exactly is it that they wish to be separate from?

  19. * Completely

  20. They wish to make their own decisions in Barcelona and Bilbao, not have their decisions made for them in Madrid.

    And yes, one of those decisions is the sovereign right to join the EU or not.

  21. (Same question to Nicola Sturgeon: You’re already part of the EU, as is the rest of the UK. What exactly does she want to be independent from?)

  22. Aah, so they wish for a degree of honorary autonomy, no more. Surely that can be delivered via a few signatories on a bit of paper, so long as they don’t actually disagree with anything their masters tell them?

  23. I think I’ll get my employer to sign up to that: Complete freedom for me to come in to work at any time I like….so long as it’s 8:30. Freedom at last!

  24. You’re wicked

  25. No, they had a real murderous actual dictatorship which told them what to do for more than thirty five years and now they’d like to make their own decisions.

    Still no comment on people being given prison sentences from 8 – 13 years for organising a non – recognised, non – binding act of political preference I see.

  26. Sorry, Paul, but you’re still basically arguing in terms of the ACTUAL level of violence so far deployed against the insurrectionists (which, yes, I DO find awful) and granted, yes, we have not YET seen any such violence deployed against us here – but it’s only a question of time? The basic argument is the same IMO. Freedom, REAL freedom versus subjugation.

  27. brex

    You will leave the EU shortly. Take it to the bank.

    Why the talk of violence?

  28. Of course I’m speaking about the level of violence, (that’s what Mahons post is about?)

    When you have examples of people given jail terms of 8-13 years for organising a show of political preference and thousands of riot cops beating the shit out of anything that moves then you might begin to have an analogy.

  29. lol brexitannia I’d give you a clip round the ear for being as daft as a a brush; but seriously who is coming after ya? Have you got the security devices installed? Shotguns?
    They’re gonna be comming for ya are they? lol are you a clown in real life or just on ATW?

  30. Phantom, will we? Will re really? Oh, some signatures may be written on parchment, but what does that mean? To me, my vote to leave the EU wil only become apparent when it is self-evident that we have departed the whole globalist agenda. When I can get off an aeroplane from France to the UK and say to myself immediately “Aha! I am no longer in the EU, nor on the globalist sphere at all – I can see this, for they go that way, and we go the other. I can see this straight from the airport tarmac”. Then I shall know we have left the EU.

  31. Kurt, I am a clown in real life and not just on ATW. I am also a “gammon”. Please laugh very loudly as long as you wish; I am not in the least offended by this.

  32. hahaha well that’s cool brexitannia
    but ooh mention the bogeyman EU and you come out in a nasty rash ?
    on a scale of 1-10 how offended are you by Brussels ?

  33. I am more offended by your lack of grasp of English grammar, Kurt, but you are forgiven for this as not everyone is priveliged to be an Englishman. So we’ll let that pass.
    On a scale of 0-10, I am offended “2” by Brussels. I would give them more, but they think they can win out against the British and that is so laughable that it would be churlish to grant them a better rating. It’s better to feel abject pity for the EU than to actually rate it as a force, long-term.

  34. oh dear you really should have spelt “privileged” right .
    A clown , a gammon, and an eejit saith this anglo-irishman . You’re fired
    Goodnight.

  35. PS, my nasty rash has nothing to do with the EU. That’s the fault of a ratrher dodgy lady I met whilst touring Amsterdam. I think I’ll sue Boris Johnson as he recommended her to me. It was worth it, though, let me tell you.

  36. When you’re English, you can spell “priveiglegd” any bloody way you like, old chap!

  37. (Ha ha! Love batting it back at puritanical Guardian-reading lefties! They think they’re insulting you by pointing out any perceived “short-of-perfection” shortcomings in a person, without realising that I already know that I’m an eejit and I don’t pertain to be anything more than that, nor do I think that anyone SHOULD, nor CAN be anything more! That’s the whole thing with these socialists/communists, they think humankind can achieve a moral perfection if only they can guide us all in the right direction. It’s why it’s so easy to rip the total piss out of them.

  38. tommy-rot
    “I am more offended by your lack of grasp of English grammar, Kurt, but you are forgiven for this as not everyone is priveliged to be an Englishman.”
    You have displayed your drunken over-priveleged sense of entitlement more than once in this thread. You’re a bitter old git who wants to turn the clock back 70 years, pretending to be a laid back old sozzler, nice guy down the pub. You’re a rage-machine pal, its funny reading you wanting it both ways, wriggling on a pin of your own making.
    I couldn’t give a crap about grammer, but you started it .
    Off to bed now old bean you’re done fer the week, pensioner needs their sleep. lol
    once again goodnight

  39. I’m glad that it makes you feel better that I’ll be dead before you are, Kurt. But wjat you’re neglecting is the millions of people in their mid 30s to 40s who were once socialists in their 20s (as I was) who become conservatives in their 30-40s after they see life as it really is (as I did). That’s why “Leave the EU” still has a majority – you’re discounting those who grow up and see the ugly stench of socialism for the lie that it is. But hey, I changed my perspective and so there’s hope that you too will grow up, and I’ll hold nothing against you when you do, having gone through that whole thing myself.

  40. Yes, I too listened to “Burning Sky” by The Jam with tears in my eyes, and raged against “the man” etc, with absolute self-assurance of my own righteousness. But to my astonishment, the antagonist in that song is actually what we all become. Not out of resignation or defeat, but from the realisation that your values are drawn from your family ties. Everyone wants to “save the planet” as far as it goes, but not so far that you will sacrifice your family. That’s what really counts, and no man will put “the planet” as an abstract above his family ties.

  41. where dya get the this idea I am a socialist, I’m not I’m with Max Weber
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber
    Yuo do get a bit more conservative when you’re older I agree, but you don’t go full bananas Farage Crazy. You should know the power of the Empire is over, and we don’t have the strength to stand alone anymore. The most sensible deal we have is with the EU already. Anything unpalatable ought to be acceptable as part of the modern world. The demographics really are against you on this one. Its the golden oldies who just can’t move on and accept we’re part of the EU and get on with living, its sad you fellas go into the final phase of life embittered, when you shud be relaxing taking it easy, volunteering, travelling, taking it easy rather than getting on a gammon and going Nuts over the state of the Country.
    Shame mate shame ..

  42. The only rage that I see comes from kurt at 1117

    I’m genuinely surprised to see such comment, uncalled for

  43. don’t worry phantom, he’s making an effort now and so am I

  44. I want an elected government of a country to be DIRECTLY accountable, electable and UNelectable, by the people who who elected it, simple as that. The EU is NOT so. How Can it, or could it, be put in any simpler terms than that? God’s sake, what is WRONG with these federalists? Do you actually WISH us to be ruled by an unelected committee? And if so, how on earth do you judge that committee to be worthy of ruling? Are they Gods sitting above us all? Pray, tell!!?!

  45. (Realises with acsigh that it’s no more use debating with EU federalists than it is with Ext Rebelionists. It’s a religion. Pure and simple.)

  46. brexit, see I’m a realist, earlier you were talking about how all that socialism was pie-in the-sky so you packed it in. But its the same playbook here. Nothing is ideal. you want some sorta perfection, a utopia. IN an interconnected world its not possible, so we have treaties for common interest. All you have done is swop your idealism of your youth for another one – a far right one, of interest to a small number of people on the tory right. How does being part of the EU effect you badly on any given day. Name one thing your life in the last year that practically of any worth had adversely affected you ? you can’t , because its all in your head. Look at the globe we’re a tiny country . But i can’t please you, because what you say is you’re already an entitled englishman and johnny foreigner and EU is doing you’re nut in.
    I suggest you go and travel around Europe on a cruise or something and enjoy yourself.

  47. Sigh, there’s no use. I bet the BBC would never, ever re-broadcast its 1970s sci-fi series “Blakes Seven” these days. For it surely pits the protagonists against the “Federation” (EU).
    As the character “Avon” said in that series, “If they are going to kill us, let us at least make it difficult for them”. Amen to that.

  48. brexitannia, you’re so wrong, its an issue that obsesses you the EU. I hardly even think about it, on a scale of 0-20 of importance in my life its like 3/20. The only thing i don’t wanna see is a no-deal and the chaos coming from that . Its a non-issue I’m a European . Sleep good

  49. “If they are going to kill us, let us at least make it difficult for them”
    mate there’s a lot of that that is unhinged, its paranoia, you can get meds for that.
    Quetiapine 25mg be good , stops the thoughts. Gives you peace ask your GP 🙂

  50. Kurt, what do you mean, “Name one thing your life in the last year that practically of any worth had adversely affected you ?
    There are many, and there are some that positively affected me. Don’t undersrand what you mean.
    “I suggest you go and travel around Europe on a cruise or something and enjoy yourself” – I have lived in Eastern Europe when people risked their lives to escape from the Iron Curtain and flee Westwards. NEVER the other way round. NOBODY ever risked their necks on a manmade raft to escape from Western Germany to flee towards the East.
    And that tells you, better than I ever could, the difference between “socialist” countries and our so-called corrupt Western Capitalist countries. Just look at the direction the rafts were travelling. Communist/socialist countries sucked rotten eggs, and EVERYONE risked their bloody necks to escape from them and get to Capitalist countries. Don’t believe what I say on here, just trust the direction of the rafts. Socialism sucks.

  51. Same goes for Venezuela. Five MILLION have fled that socialist-infected scumhole to flee to Brazil. When you flee from your country to go to BRAZIL for Gods sake, then let me tell you that your country is in DIRE f**ing STRAITS indeed. Socialism sucks the maggot-stench from the wormholes of…. whatever.

  52. sure I believe ya, that version orf it sucked, it had to fall. Berlin Wall came down. It was awful. Blair got accused of being a tory remember, I voted for him 3 times.

    re: EU , am asking what bad affects in your life you can point to that being part of the EU
    has resulted in. Have you lost money, housing, jobs, cos all i hear with you folks is sovereignty. Well we have a parliament , a head of state, set our own laws/taxes.
    So in reality there might be 1% loss of independence to the Euopean Court of HUman Rights.
    I hear that really exercises you, it just don’t worry me in the slightest.
    Can’t say anymore . My whole identity, hopes dreams are not in any way impacted by the EU.
    I’m glad i can move freely, order parts in 24hrs and don’t have 20 mile queues to worry about.
    Can hope on a plane to spain whenever I fancy, easily.
    Thanks buddy I think I want things to remain just the way they are ok .

  53. ok brexit we got it, ya don’t like socialism ..lol
    what do you like ?

  54. STOP BREXIT !

  55. lol colm

  56. Damn right I don’t like socialism and any mature adult who understands history doesn’t like it either. Children and immatures are excepted but they will hopefully grow up given time.

  57. Everyone here likes socialism

    If you think that all ( no exceptions ) of the most successful societies have huge socialistic features in their economy and political systems, you’re not paying attention

  58. As I said, don’t take my word for it, just follow the direction of the rafts fleeing across the sea. Always fleeing from socialist countreies towards free ones. Always.

  59. The UK and US have huge socialist elements that no one wants to change ( other than pretend-bloggers )

    But the rafts come here too?

  60. again, what are you for? we know what you’re against

  61. (or do you think the Berlin Wall was constructed to keep West Germans OUT of the East?)

  62. Don’t ask me, Kurt, I know nothing. Ask those fleeing on the rafts what they were FOR or AGAINST. Ask them.

  63. I’m not sure a man made raft was the best way to scale a wall, but let us agree living in West Germany was preferable to living in East Germany. There is a difference between hard core totolitarian communism and sociaism, just as there is a difference between sweatshops and capitalism.

  64. Ask those fleeing from Venezuela what they are against. Is it no food in the shops or no loo roll? (Just as well really that there’s no loo roll when there’s no food, I suppose).

  65. But none of that is particularly on point about happenings in Spain.

  66. if i could sum up your views brexit this evening its this

    “We’re all going to hell in a hell-cart “, yeah?
    its a bleak assessment i grant you ..
    actually i know some evangelicals who would agree with that.
    a very good night to you

  67. Long live Spain and the tribes that live in it.

    Not a comment on any political issue.

  68. esp the girls in Gallicea, who I’m very fond of 🙂

  69. They say that politics is war by different means. Are Brexiteer & Kurt the Harri & Jude show by different means?

    //Long live Spain and the tribes that live in it//

    I realise you say that with general affection Phantom but suggest that living here you’d get a different picture and might disagree

  70. * genuine affection.

  71. Different means, same voices, yes!

  72. ?

    Cryptic.

  73. No it’s not

    I’m agreeing with your comment about the new Harri and Jude, with their nice new set of clothes

  74. Phantom – well spotted.

  75. I’m glad that they’re back, I think!

  76. Apologies. Was unsure if you were referring to the all new H&J show comment or the Spanish one.

  77. I think that your Spanish comment is correct also

    I’ve had a few pleasant experiences in different parts of the country

    Not the same as living there

  78. Lol it’s def not Harri . He could not write a paragraph to save his bacon or gammon as it’s now called 😂

  79. Brexiteer definitely isn’t Harri. He writes much better and more entertainingly (and longer than one five-word sentence).

    Long may be continue.

    Brexiteer, how would you feel about a customs border between Northern Ireland and Britain?

  80. It’s extraordinary watching the news and reflections how a tiny bunch of backwoods men DUP – UDA hold 500 million Europeans to ransom . What is their leverages . Ah yeah tyres .Burning tyres. So it’s a climate issue. Figures. Lol

  81. The DUP Is against everything at all times

    I guess setting fires ia political speech

    That’s OK when our buddies do it

  82. The thread seems to have went completely off course, so:

    It is expected the deal will be sweetened for the DUP with a multimillion-euro package of investment funded by the EU, London and Dublin.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-hopeful-draft-brexit-deal-will-be-ready-for-eu-summit-1.4051825?fbclid=IwAR1Xvq-FN2emJEnZqEus6NcVU9k_vsLm-1omkdpPm_dcBPNF4V0Q4LY59KQ

    The Crown & half crown etc etc. I suspect RHI being sweeped under the carper & a few sirs and sirettes being handed out might also be the order of the day.

  83. //It’s extraordinary watching the news and reflections how a tiny bunch of backwoods men DUP – UDA hold 500 million Europeans to ransom//

    All greatly facilitated by Sinn Fein not taking its seats, of course.

  84. I’m hearing billions are being offered to DUP.
    Fair point Noel. Need those SF votes at Westminster.

  85. Billions?

    That economy is on welfare as it is.

    The British should give no tribute.

  86. Are you sure that’s the case Noel? I haven’t done any looking into it recently but I rem Mary Lou replying to Fintan O’Toole’s suggestion that 7 MPs wouldn’t make a difference to the Brexit majority in Westminster.
    Phantom, it’s reportedly a package from London, Dublin & the EU.

  87. can we have a rudy thread please, this just in:

    A third Giuliani associate is arrested in New York City

    A Florida man wanted in a campaign finance case involving associates of Rudy Giuliani is in federal custody.

    Federal authorities say they took David Correia into custody Wednesday at Kennedy Airport in New York City.

    Correia is named in an indictment with two Giuliani associates arrested last week on charges they made illegal contributions to a congressman and a political action committee supporting President Donald Trump.

    Giuliani is Trump’s personal lawyer. He says he had no knowledge of illegal donations.

    Prosecutors say Correia conspired with other defendants to make political donations with the aim of trying to get support for a new recreational marijuana business.

    Four defendants are expected to appear Thursday in federal court in Manhattan.

    A lawyer for Correia is not yet listed in court records

  88. A package that works how?

  89. Rudy’s in trouble.

  90. HMG agree Deal with EU
    DUP says “we do take cheques”
    HMG How much ?
    DUP How much you got ?

    Dragged out to the last min, to show how tough they are fighting for Union

    Monies agreed

    Formula: tried and tested over many decades ..

  91. Rudy has the Clash behind him though

    Rudie can’t fail

    https://youtu.be/uEK9oK02D1M

  92. I do’t know how it works. What I do know is that it’s being reported that Britain, Dublin & the EU are preparing a package of millions / billions of €s (depending on which source you read), for the DUP. Presumably it’s a sweetner for them to support Johnson’s deal and they can go back to their electorate in the wee six pockets filled with largess.

    If the reports are true surely it’s the EU & Dublin contributing to the British Government to help them convince a British unionist party to get a deal through a British parliament?

  93. Investment is one thing.

    Donations another.

    Payoffs another thing still.

    My money’s on number three, please.

  94. Giuliani people just don’t have any luck at the airport.

    Those FBI deep state people can’t leave a crook alone these days.

  95. Yeah, mine too.

    I think your 5.11 needs revised either way.

  96. FBI Arrests Fourth Man at JFK Airport in Probe of Rudy Giuliani Associates
    Fast moving story , very important, sorry paul i’ve hi-jacked the thread
    Get Guiliani and you get Trump
    This could be the big one ..

  97. I mean, those keeping the Conservative government in place need to show the organ grinders something:

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/16/news/dup-defends-arlene-foster-s-astonishing-meetings-with-senior-loyalists-1739844/?param=ds441rif44T

  98. you guessed right Mahons, Greed

    President Donald Trump’s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, was paid $500,000 for work he did for a company co-founded by the Ukrainian-American businessman arrested last week on campaign finance charges

  99. I came across this thoughtful take on Spain today. The essential point is that Spain was created by force and can only be held together by force. It has suffered numerous convulsions like this in its history:

    “But the problem was to fall into the trap of thinking that Spain actually had changed, to believe the yarn spun by the story of the Transición that she was now somehow different. A long view of the country’s history reveals that old problems and divisions never really go away in Spain; they simply fall into abeyance every now again, only to re-emerge, in a slightly different guise, yet essentially the same. And the Catalan situation is a very good example.

    It is often overlooked that after Switzerland, Spain is the most mountainous country in Europe, and mountainous countries are notoriously difficult to unite and govern (Switzerland only succeeds by being a decentralised federation of cantons). Spanish geography itself, therefore, both gives a clear sense of national identity on the one hand through the distinct landmass that is the Iberian Peninsula (pace Portugal), but also pulls against this by dividing the peoples within between the numerous sierras which cross the landscape like castle walls.

    Because of this there are five official languages in a country of only 40 million people, and there are no words to the national anthem because no one can agree what they should be. “Spanishness” is something which is deeply felt by most of the country’s inhabitants, but is impossible to define. The upshot of this is that several attempts have been made to delineate it through what it is or was not…”

    https://unherd.com/2019/10/will-spain-be-held-together-by-force/

  100. Precisely the point I made in my first ever ATW blog Peter:

    http://www.atangledweb.org/index.php?s=cATALUNYA

  101. Cheers Paul, I have just re-read it.

    I was not aware of how mountainous a country Spain is and how much that has influenced its history. Or that Catalan is spoken in Sardinia, who knew?

  102. One of the things I love about where I live, I’m forty five minutes away from the foothills of the Pyrenees.