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BUT THE NHS IS POLITICAL

By Pete Moore On November 4th, 2019

Parties should not use the NHS as “a political weapon” in the election campaign, health service bosses say.

NHS Providers chief Chris Hopson said “over-dramatising NHS difficulties” or making “disingenuous” funding claims did the service “no favours”.

Clearly he has the Labour Party and its whoppers about the NHS under the Tories in mind. Come a General Election, Labour rolls out its “there are just weeks to save the NHS” line. Alas, the Tories have been in government for the majority of the NHS’s existence and here it still is, providing abysmal care and value for money.

It;s impossible for the NHS to not be a political weapon, therefore it will always be abysmal. It will be a political weapon for as long long as it’s collectivised and state-run. That’s the way it is.

51 Responses to “BUT THE NHS IS POLITICAL”

  1. Is it not true that all major parties there support the principle of covering all British people for health care by the NHS?

    There are no Trump/Mitch McConnell types there trying to take health coverage away from your own people?

  2. It is true that all the major parties favour the suppression and rationing of healthcare services via collectivisation.

    Healthcare or Ukrainian food production, everything is in short supply under central-state control.

  3. Here, medical and dental care is rationed according to ability to pay for many.

    Please advise how that is better.

  4. Pete

    Average life expectancy in the UK is almost 3 years longer ( count ’em , three years! ) longer than in the US.

    UK life expectancy looks good in all international comparisons.

    How does that jibe with your statement that the NHS does a bad job?

  5. Here, medical and dental care is rationed according to ability to pay for many.

    Please advise how that is better.

    Yes, rationing by price, or the price mechanism. Everything is rationed by price in a market, whether shoes, cars or homes. It’s basic economics.

    It’s how producers and consumers constantly signal preferences to each other, so aiding more efficient use and distribution of scarce resources. When you have no prices, such as in a communist system of food, washing machine production or health services, you have few signals coming through telling you where resources need to be directed.

    https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/Rationing_and_incentives.html

  6. There would be plenty in your country and mine who have modest income and minimal or no savings. There will always be people in that situation.

    If one of them needs a hip replacement or sustained cancer treatment and doesn’t have the biscuits to pay for care, what should happen?

  7. Healthcare cannot be simply allocated by price and ability to pay the way food or any other consumables can be, Nobody ever needs an instant fix of £20,000 worth of food to survive but people with certain medical conditions may well need surgery or medical treatments that cost that immediately. There is certainly correct arguments for greater private and insurance based flexibility in how healthcare is delivered in the U.K. but to try and treat all healthcare availability based only on the same ‘affordability’ as someone wanting a new I Pad, foreign holiday or new car is not a humane or moral basis for a civilised society to organise medicine and healthcare.

  8. Even Hayak clearly said that there was a legitimate role for government in this field.

    But I guess these guys know more than him.

  9. Hayek

  10. Yes, rationing by price, or the price mechanism. Everything is rationed by price in a market, whether shoes, cars or homes. It’s basic economics

    Pete’s hoary old voodoo again. We’ve had this conversation many, many times before and it will end as it always ends:

    Paul McMahon, on February 13th, 2016 at 7:40 PM Said:

    Because entrepreneurs, capitalism and markets make us healthier, wealthier and longer lived

    Pete, we’ve had this conversation many many times before and if it continues the end will be what it always is.

    After an elongated conversation I asked you what would happen to a cancer sufferer if they couldn’t afford treatment with a privatised medical system.

    ‘The same thing that would happen to them if they couldn’t afford shoes’ was your reply.

    By all means continue this thread but that is where it will ultimately end.

    Pete Moore, on February 13th, 2016 at 7:44 PM Said:
    Paul McMahon –

    So don’t ask the question. It’s an ill-informed question anyway. To ask again when I’ve twice answered you is obtuse .

  11. The other major flaw in Pete’s argument is to try and compare the basic compact that explains the success of private enterprise , the whole buyer/ seller dynamic which works for consumable items and services where sellers can advertise and persuade people to buy ‘stuff’ they don’t need but that cannot work with healthcare. You can’t sell more heart operations or cancer treatments than are needed , you can’t profit from your business by throwing in a gall bladder surgery free with every hip replacement surgery and tempt a customer to buy. Such capitalist entrepreneurship works when it comes to disposable income and things people think they want , but it is pointless with healthcare where people have no choice about their medical condition and cannot benefit from extra surgeries , procedures or medicines just because they are ‘on offer’. BOGOF deals are fine for Cakes, not for Cancers !

  12. wow terrific work guys

    phantoms body shots softing up the target, pauls left and right jabs and colms upper cut
    That’s a KO right there.

  13. I think that there is a case to be made for some more affordable private health care in the UK to be made.
    Affordable being the operative word here.
    How it would work and what form it would take i don’t know but successive Govt policy of simply throwing more and more money at a public health service just isn’t working any longer.

  14. The NHS is playing its part in destroying indigenous Britons, examples being mutilating mentally-ill men instead of helping them, and offering to sterilise white people in London…….

    http://www.renegadetribune.com/london-billboard-encourages-white-people-to-get-sterilized/

    Instead of kicking out all the third world invaders who have made indigenous Brits a minority in their capitol city, Whites are being encouraged to sterilize themselves to make the city less crowded. The billboard reads, “Do Your Part, Get Sterilised! Yay!” and one of the girls has a t-shirt that reads “no more sperm.”

    This billboard featuring White cartoons, which would usually be seen as racist since the rainbow of brown “diversity” is not represented, is obviously targeting White Brits, getting them to think they will make the city a better place by ending their bloodlines.

  15. I think that there is a case to be made for some more affordable private health care in the UK to be made.
    Affordable being the operative word here

    But then to make it affordable it would have to be regulated by the loony lefties?

    Affordable private health care already exists in the UK in that it’s there for those who can afford it.

  16. JM

    More affordable in comparison to what? The UK doesn’t spend a lot compared with peer countries. You pay far less than the USA does for healthcare, yet your people are healthier and live longer lives.

    You have a robust private healthcare system in the UK of course in BUPA.

    I know a number of folks that are covered by that system.

  17. Paul

    I believe that private BUPA can legally charge more or not cover those with ” pre-existing medical conditions ” as our insurance companies used to be able to not cover for pre-existing conditions or charge those patients more before the satanic Obama put a stop to that practice.

    The NHS does not have that restriction. They provide care for all, even you have a tough medical condition.

  18. The NHS does not have that ability to deny coverage to people, or that ability to charge them more. They provide care for all, even those with tough medical conditions

  19. Pete’s hoary old voodoo again.

    This is why socialists spread misery, hunger and death everywhere they get into power. Even basic economics elude them. They simply refuse to recognise the reality of the world around them.

    Paul’s comment was sent from a PC of some kind, with immense power which he bought at a miraculously low price. It’s a piece of kit which almost every human who ever lived would have regarded as wizardry, literal wizardry.

    It’s wizardry of sorts, but it’s called capitalism and markets. Capitalism and markets have made magicians of us all, rich magicians. Yet socialists are so bigoted and blind that they spit on it.

  20. The NHS does not have that ability to deny coverage to people

    WTF?! It denies coverage all the time!

  21. Pete

    How are the British ” socialists ” spreading misery with their NHS when the average healthy Brit lives almost three years longer than the average Yank?

    Do you think it wrong to provide medical care for an entire population? Do you have an alternative approach for covering an entire population?

  22. lol petem you’re way passed out dude, the contest is over
    Not one word on the NHS in your sulk post of 9:15
    Bedtime: horlicks me ol mucker

  23. The election campaign in the UK is a freak show and to perceive the extent of the degeneracy involved, one must detach oneself from the entirety and become an observer of what is an absolutely hilarious system, though Peter Hitchens doesn’t see the joke…..

    https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/11/peter-hitchens-i-used-to-love-elections-but-now-i-say-a-plague-on-all-their-houses.html

    The more they talk of education, the worse the schools get. The louder they talk of law and order, the more locks I put on my house and the more care I take on the way home. The louder they talk of the health service, the more private medical insurance I use. The louder they talk of their economic policies, the more I fear for my savings. The more they claim to favour peace, the more I fear war.

    You are welcome to it, if you want it. I see nothing left to gain.

    I see a country that, during all these Elections, has lost almost everything precious it had.

    Its tolerant freedom under law, frayed and tattered. Its manufacturing industry gone, so that we use almost nothing made by our fellow countrymen.

    Its excellent, disciplined schools are destroyed. Modest competent local government has been replaced by grandiose, posturing authorities that cannot even collect garbage.

    Its unarmed, friendly police force has been replaced by a glowering, absent militia. Stable family life is replaced by a fatherless chaos, which in turn demands a limitless welfare state to pick up the pieces.

    We could face it, if we had wholly different leaders. But how can we find them through this process?

    This Election is not designed to find leaders, just to provide an escape hatch for those who have failed to lead. But there is, in fact, no real escape.

    But, say the ‘moderates’ at ATW – you are rejecting democracy. Democracy as expressed by Britons more than 3 years ago has been rejected by the political system. They got the wrong result in June 2016 and this is the charade that continues. It’s nothing to do with apparently narrow victory for Brexit and everything to do with the wrong result. Here’s an example of the ‘right’ result:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Welsh_devolution_referendum

    The Welsh devolution referendum of 1997 was a pre-legislative referendum held in Wales on 18 September 1997 over whether there was support for the creation of a National Assembly for Wales, and therefore a degree of self-government. The referendum was a Labour manifesto commitment and was held in their first term after the 1997 election under the provisions of the Referendums (Scotland & Wales) Act 1997. This was the second referendum held in Wales over the question of devolution: the first was held in 1979 and was defeated by a large majority.

    The referendum resulted in a small majority in favour, which led to the passing of the Government of Wales Act 1998 and the formation of the National Assembly for Wales in 1999.

    Yes 559,419 50.30%
    No 552,698 49.70%

    And now, an example of the UK loony-bin……brilliant stuff 🙂

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7643251/Charity-hounds-birth-coach-post-saying-women-children.html

    A birth coach has been ‘ostracised’ by her professional organisation after transgender activists branded as offensive a Facebook post in which she said that only women can have babies.

    They did not expel the mother- of-four, who has been a doula – who provide continuous support during pregnancy – for six years, but threatened to suspend her unless she deleted the post.

    Just to be clear – this is a birth-support group disputing the assertion that only women can give birth.

  24. No system in the world covers every drug and every procedure and no system ever will. We’ve discussed this before.

    The NHS provides medical coverage to every eligible person.

    Which is basically every person who lives there.

    Do you have a system that will provide medical coverage to every British person for less than what the NHS charges?

  25. Pete

    Which country’s system for health coverage do you think is the best?

    No utopian theory about Tesco heart transplants for ₤49.99 when you buy a tin of jaffa biscuits, let’s have something from the here and now. One used on planet earth today.

  26. Phantom, why’s your 9.13 addressed to me?

    I make the point to JM that affordable private healthcare already exists in the UK for those who can afford it.

    Paul’s comment was sent from a PC of some kind, with immense power which he bought at a miraculously low price. It’s a piece of kit which almost every human who ever lived would have regarded as wizardry, literal wizardry

    Yes, and my children were born healthily and my mother’s post lung cancer diagnoisis life made unfathomably more comfortable because of the Commie NHS.

    Where would your wizardry have been had she not had the money to buy those shoes?

  27. Do you have a system that will provide medical coverage to every British person for less than what the NHS charges?

    British person? BRITISH PERSON?? Anybody from anywhere in the world who sets foot in the UK will be provided health care – so guess what happens next……

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/06/26/think-tank-opening-nhs-migrants-will-result-huge-inflow-of-health-tourists/

    On Tuesday, an overwhelming majority of delegates at the annual conference of the British Medical Association, a union which represents 155,000 doctors, called for the abolition of all charges by migrants to use the NHS, which would effectively turn the National Health Service into the International Health Service.

    Health tourism is believed to cost British taxpayers between £200 million and £2 billion every year. However, Dr Jackie Appleby, who proposed the motion, calls the millions — and potentially billions — of annual lost healthcare funding “peanuts in the grand scheme of things”.

    Medics can be very stupid indeed

  28. Paul

    I’m just saying that BUPA gets to cherry pick. The NHS carries a vastly heavier load.

    We are on the same page on this thing.

  29. We are on the same page on this thing

    Yes, we are, I wasn’t sure wheither you were making a wider point on what I said.

    BUPA is affordable private medical care for those who can afford it.

  30. Allan

    The NHS doesn’t control immigration.

    Do not blame them for any of that.

  31. Pete and Allan and the rest can and will run down the NHS day and daily, but they have all – every one of them – availed of its free services at different points in their lives. In fact, Pete stated last week that he used it. In a free market, where the buyer has his choice of services, depending on their cost, why would you use a product or service that you believe to be defective and unsafe? You’re either really stupid or your not being totally honest when you run down the NHS.

  32. Phantom – one of the attractions of the UK for 3rd-worlders is the NHS. Perhaps think about it for a few moments and consider whether it is possibly so. They don’t come here for weather so what else persuades the detritus of the 3rd-world to pass through Europe in a desire to get to this country?

  33. The NHS has zero control over immigration.

    Fix immigration and fund the NHS.

  34. You’re either really stupid or your not being totally honest when you run down the NHS.

    The NHS would work reasonably well in a closed cycle with its sole purpose, as paid for by Britons and employing only Britons, to look after Britons. Opening the borders to the world’s ill and to the 3rd-world’s ‘medics’ is an unfundable disaster.

  35. Medical tourism of this type is a real issue.

    But the NHS already clearly does a good job, despite any and all flaws.

    It compares very well to the US system, we can all agree on that, based on the health results of the two nations

  36. Don’t like the NHS? Don’t use it.

    Simples.

  37. Reductio ad absurdum

    jaysus its boring talking to the peckerheads, sorry

    The Tories of 1979-1997 let the NHS run into the ground, then Blair won 3-in-row and built it back up to a much better service ( not perfect by any means: see PPI ) then Cameron realised NHS is a vote winner, so Tories started to get on board. Now some Tories are on board, its genuine, they’re converts. But others still can’t let go of seeing NHS as a business.

    Petem is still stuck in the 1980’s – never ever got to the point of embracing the NHS

    Allan just loops like a stuck record
    Scotland would be so much better off if it weren’t for the pakis,jews and nignogs
    ( repeat ad nauseum )

  38. You don’t necessarily have to employ only Britons.

    There are plenty of immigrant workers who do a great job in the US health system.

  39. So Allan doesn’t like it because immigrants use it illegally. At least that’s an honest answer, and one that could be resonably debated.
    Pete just isn’t being honest though. Far from giving ‘abysmal care,’ the NHS provides excellent care for the vast majority of its patients, despite being under-funded and under-staffed. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than what a lot of other countries have.

  40. The NHS model should be subject to critical comment. There are other ways to do it.

    But Pete and the gang have never come up with any alternative that would provide a proper level of medical care for all Britons.

    It’s all high theory, which like communism, works great in a book but not in real life.

  41. The NHS model should be subject to critical comment

    Absolutely, but it should be constructive and not just whinging for the sake of whinging. If these guys don’t like the NHS then give an alternative past theroretical bolloxology which gives a similar level of care.

    And, if you dislike it, don’t use it.

  42. Any UK person who pays for it should use it when needed, critics included.

    I don’t like my local highways, but I use them.

  43. Before, during and after my Da had been diagnosed with terminal cancer, the dedication, care, respect and dignity shown to him by every single person he had to deal with in the hospitals and at home was beyond reproof. There are literally thousands of stories just like mine and my family’s experience to be heard the length and breadth of the UK and NI, whereas these stories that Pete trawls up every month are two are, by a country mile, in the minority.

    If you dislike it don’t use it. Don’t be a hypocrite and use it whilst asking for it to be shut down or sold off.

  44. I imagine that the NHS staff is like the staff at US private health systems.

    There probably are bad employees – lets face it.

    But most are skilled, dedicated and are good people.

    Most who work at hospitals etc don’t go into it to get rich. They want to serve.

  45. The comments from the Johnny One Note critics of the NHS is the must brutal criticism at all times.

    All positive metrics are never discussed by the critics.

    That’s not how you intelligently discuss anything.

  46. My mother was riddled with lung cancer and the care and love she, (and we), recieved from NHS cancer nurses was as close to angelic as I have come to in humans.

  47. Allan just loops like a stuck record
    Scotland would be so much better off if it weren’t for the pakis,jews and nignogs

    The world would be so much better off if it weren’t for pakis jews and nignogs.

  48. Before, during and after my Da had been diagnosed with terminal cancer, the dedication, care, respect and dignity shown to him by every single person he had to deal with in the hospitals and at home was beyond reproof. There are literally thousands of stories just like mine and my family’s experience to be heard the length and breadth of the UK and NI,

    and through the entire developped world, yet the fundamental treatment is as it was when the NHS was founded – so where’s the remedy? Nobody is disputing the attitude of personnel involved in palliative care but the NHS is heavily involved in the cancer industry – a revolving door of big-pharma, the NHS, and big dodgy ‘charities’. It would be a disaster if remedies were found for cancer.

    Just for info, one of my friends has had treatment for throat cancer so he confirms that it’s the same chemo and radiation on the menu from decades ago.

  49. Colm,

    “You can’t sell more heart operations or cancer treatments than are needed ”

    Sure you can. There’s even a massive market for treatments which demonstrably don’t work and can’t work, some of them even harmful.

    There are also many ailments that don’t kill people but just make their lives a bit miserable. Plus lots of aspects of healthcare are just about a better or more convenient service, rather than outcomes. Just as a hotel room or a meal fulfils a basic need but most of the competition isn’t about that. You could even argue that anaesthetic is a “frill”.

  50. Right-wingers should leave the NHS alone. With Brexit they have caused major upcoming problems that they don’t want to talk about. Just properly fund the NHS and be concerned about how to cope with Brexit and the problems it will bring.

  51. Frank 1053

    Correct

    And many people are over medicated on powerful prescription drugs , especially in The United States, where powerful drugs are pushed on television, a practice banned in most countries

    It has been estimated that Americans consume 80% of the worlds supply of prescription opioids…A major driver of the devastating Opioid crisis . That’s way too much