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Pay attention

By Patrick Van Roy On March 23rd, 2020

The Green New Deal, student debt, vote-by-mail 

Maybe MSNBC telling you this is about LEVERAGE you’ll listen

She wants – Mandates climate change studies – Forces airlines to spend money on carbon offsets—not workers – Massive union giveaways, Cancellation of ALL Student Debt, election audits, same-day voter registration  She’s holding the American people’s well-being hostage to her liberal agenda.

and here the hardest hardliner Republican EVER Sen Susan Collins of Maine…. she’s just one of those Trumpbots…….

The Democrats don’t care that people are dying, that businesses are failing.

This to them is the opportunity of the Century they can actually hold peoples LIVES in the balance for their agenda….. F those Peasants.

 

If you don’t take the time to at the very least Sen Susan Collins then you shouldn’t bother to comment…..

87 Responses to “Pay attention”

  1. Yeah because the Republicans really care about ordinary people with their $500 billion slush fund for corporations with no requirements placed on those corporations in how they spend it.

  2. you’re an idiot….. that’s what I say you just proved with that statement Seamus.

    You didn’t listen to a single clip and you’re spouting propaganda bullshit….

  3. “you’re spouting propaganda bullshit”

    Pot calling the the kettle a negro.

    Of course I didn’t listen to a single clip. I have better things to do with my time. I’ve had read the Republican arguments. They don’t stack up to me. I’ll read the analysis of the bill Pelosi has produced. Most likely it will be a Democratic version, favoured by Democrats, to the Senate’s Republican version, favoured by Republicans. The compromise (and actually passed Bill) will be somewhere in the middle.

  4. try commenting on the information I just gave you. Information you haven’t received from anyone here or whatever you consider News.

    I’ve even included MSNBC stating flat out that this is all about leverage.

  5. Of course I didn’t listen to a single clip. I have better things to do with my time.

    So you admit you’re a man that makes up his mind without any source of information…. I’m sure there’s a word for that……

  6. “So you admit you’re a man that makes up his mind without any source of information”

    I have sources of information. Carefully selected (and probably edited) youtube clips is not a source of information. I read. I don’t listen.

  7. And you make up your mind before a single shred of information is available. Democrat bad Republican good. It is a simple as that for you. If the Republicans and the Democrats agreed you’d still find someway of supporting the Republicans on it and attacking the Democrats on it.

  8. If only Trump had been elected, we’d be tired of winning by now

  9. Any other fools want to give an opinion without knowing what you’re talking about c’mon….

    The Democrats are using peoples lives to force the green deal, same day voter registration, and free college onto the tax payers and is holding their lives hostage to get it.

    but you know better…. you don’t even have to watch the tapes…. baa baa sheep

  10. Student loan forgiveness is a non starter. why pay off a student’s loan and not my car loan. What’s the difference?

    And airlines paying for their “carbon footprint?” What kind of green commie B.S. is this and what does it have to do with covid-19?

  11. Seamus, on March 23rd, 2020 at 9:35 PM Said: Edit Comment
    And you make up your mind before a single shred of information is available. Democrat bad Republican good. It is a simple as that for you. If the Republicans and the Democrats agreed you’d still find someway of supporting the Republicans on it and attacking the Democrats on it.

    That’s bullshit Seamus

  12. And the Republicans are using peoples lives to force through a $500 billion slush fund for their corporate donors, and are holding their lives hostage to get it.

    But you know better because you have watched the tapes and lapped up every word of it. And then have the gall to call someone else a sheep.

  13. “Student loan forgiveness is a non starter. why pay off a student’s loan and not my car loan. What’s the difference?”

    Because education is a public good, not just a private commodity.

  14. “And airlines paying for their “carbon footprint?” What kind of green commie B.S. is this and what does it have to do with covid-19?”

    It doesn’t have anything to do with Covid-19. However if the taxpayer is giving billions of taxpayers money to airlines does it not provide an opportunity to attach so beneficial strings to it moving forward?

  15. It’s not a slush fund, but you’re to ignorant to look it up…. baa baa sheep

  16. $1,200-PP, $2,400-Couple, $500-Child
    $250 Billion-Unemployment Insurance
    $350 B-Small Business Loan Program
    $100 B-Hospitals
    $11 B-Vaccines
    $4.5 B-CDC
    $20 B-Veterans Healthcare
    $12 B-K12 Education
    $5 B-FEMA
    $10 B-Airports

  17. If someone borrowed $50,000 for a fine arts degree, that’s his business, and not for me as a taxpayer to pay for. When I borrow money I have to pay it back.

    You may call carbon footprint taxes during a financial crises beneficial strings, but I don’t.

  18. If someone borrowed $50,000 for a fine arts degree, that’s his business, and not for me as a taxpayer to pay for. When I borrow money I have to pay it back.

    You may call carbon footprint taxes during a financial crises beneficial strings, but I don’t.

  19. And what the Reagan Battalion (impartial observers as I imagine they are) left out was the $500 billion fund for large businesses. Not unemployment, not small business loans, not public health. A $500 billion fund for large businesses. With no strings attached as to how the spend it.

  20. Mitt Romney
    @MittRomney
    ·
    3h
    With hundreds of thousands being laid off every single day and employers shutting down—some permanently—this is no time for Dems to dither, hoping to win corporate social engineering points. Shameful, destructive, and dangerous.

  21. “If someone borrowed $50,000 for a fine arts degree, that’s his business, and not for me as a taxpayer to pay for. When I borrow money I have to pay it back.”

    A better educated populace is for the betterment of all society, not just the person receiving the education. The idea of only providing top class education to those who either can afford it or those who are willing or able to burden themselves with insane levels of debt is immoral.

    “You may call carbon footprint taxes during a financial crises beneficial strings, but I don’t.”

    Again if the airline industry is getting billions of dollars in taxpayers money should that money not try to improve their practices rather than simply bailout shareholders?

  22. Student loan forgiveness is a non starter. why pay off a student’s loan and not my car loan. What’s the difference?

    Because a highly educated workforce is a positive for the economy.

  23. You didn’t listen to a single clip and you’re spouting propaganda bullshit….

    I have to admit Pat that I stopped listening to them a while ago. They all seem to be a rehash of the single transferable Trump = good, Dems = bad propaganda post.

  24. There are plenty of ” highly educated ” students who did not go to uber expensive private schools.

    There are many families who struggled to pay child’s tuition and who would now be asked to pay the tuition of those many families who could have done so but who chose not to do so

    There are plenty of people with degrees who have no knowledge at all. Think of the diversity studies people spoken of the other day. They won’t make society better, they aim to make society worse. Yet, the working people should pay the debts that they chose to run up?

  25. A graduate tax is the obvious solution. Any person with a degree who earns say more than the average wage in their State should be expected to pay a couple of extra % points of tax.

  26. Terrible solution.

  27. Phantom

    Yes, that’s all I’m saying, however you said it better!

  28. “Terrible solution.”

    Why?

  29. What problem would it solve?

    Wh

  30. This bill is not the time or place for it.

    A student loan payment moratorium would be appropriate.

  31. //There are many families who struggled to pay child’s tuition and who would now be asked to pay the tuition of those many families who could have done so//

    The same can be – and is – said about universal health insurance systems and 100 other developments in the welfare state. The last generation under the old system shouldn’t grudge the new in their good fortune. If something is right, do it.

    All education should be free for the student, but access to college should be restricted by tougher conditions of academic aptitude, etc.

  32. It should be affordable, not necessarily free

    And the ” etc ” …what does that mean. Race and ethnic based admissions? Come out and say it!

  33. I know their are people with degrees and no sense, that still doesn’t detract from the fact that a highly educated workforce is a plus for the economy.

    There are many families who struggled to pay child’s tuition and who would now be asked to pay the tuition of those many families who could have done so but who chose not to do so

    We’re one of those families who you as a single man with no children speak so authoritatively for and still think that education shouldn’t be seen as a financial commodity.

    One of the ways of dealing the extreme that you speak of above would be means tested bursaries for those families on the average salary etc.

  34. Do what you want going forward

    But the taxpayer should not bail out those who freely entered into those contracts with expensive universities

    It is monstrously unjust to the broader society

  35. “What problem would it solve?”

    To prevent people being saddled with huge debt that they struggle to pay off. Ironically those with the highest loans will likely be fine. They more often than not did advanced degrees in elite universities. They will be in demand and will likely get good salaries. The rest will struggle. The biggest problem are those who start college but don’t finish it. They get saddled with debt but don’t have a degree on the other side. That prevents them getting better employment, thus prevents them from ever being able to adequately pay off the debt.

    10% of household debt is student loans. More than one-third of all delinquent debt is from student loans.

  36. It would not be progressive.

    It would be the opposite of progressive.

  37. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/01/23/voter_challenges_warrens_student_loan_forgiveness_plan_those_of_us_who_did_the_right_thing_get_screwed.html

  38. Plans need to be put in place, especially for those on lower incomes, to compensate those who saved and sacrificed to pay their kids tuitions. But the idea that society should continue punishing and burdening those who’s parents couldn’t do that just because it would be unfair to those parents who could is insane.

  39. Bernie and Warren don’t want to compensate those parents who saved.

    They’ve each been confronted on the issue more than once by angry parents, and they’ve both said ” tough luck “

  40. //And the ” etc ” …what does that mean. Race and ethnic based admissions? Come out and say it!//

    Calm down. I meant things like some proof of ability to study hard and produce sound results. Highschool final exams could include that kind of thing.
    The idea is that the kind of idle college loafer we all know doesn’t get a free ride.

    Any financial burden on a student basically means that a lot of good talent will be kept from qualifications that benefit society, while conversely the kids of the rich will be favoured, who could then concentrate on their studies without the bother of debt.

  41. Any financial burden on a student basically means that a lot of good talent will be kept from qualifications that benefit society, while conversely the kids of the rich will be favoured, who could then concentrate on their studies without the bother of debt

    A financial burden that they will carry for the for a sizeable part of their working lives too.

    But the taxpayer should not bail out those who freely entered into those contracts with expensive universities

    So those universities should only be for the kids of the rich that Noel speaks of above?

  42. //A financial burden that they will carry for the for a sizeable part of their working lives too. //

    Yes. Which means many good people won’t take the risk and will stay away from college. The prospect of financial ruin in the event of a financial downturn, changes in the labour market etc. is enough to keep many people away, especially if they already have other financial burdens.

    The rich kid needn’t worry about any of that.

  43. The difference in opinion between Europe & the US on what taxes should be spent on never ceases to surprise me.

  44. lol pat how to win friends and influence people
    used name tonite, : ass, fool, sheep, ignorant
    meltdown mode again , give it a rest dude

    its a compromise that will have to be found between
    GOP big business and dems the working man
    rich vs poor

    we all know this so c’mon knock it off

    triggered!

  45. I notice none of the Americans are taking your side on this at this time.

    And I’m not opposed to reducing tuition at state universities- I would be in favor of it.

    But what started as a Bernie/Warren plan to buy votes by writing off the debts of those who voted for them is exceptionally bad public policy, not thought through at all .

  46. Senate Dems just blocked a $1.8 trillion Trump-Republican giveaway to big corporations, which did little or nothing for PEOPLE.

    Now Senate and House Dems must quickly craft a bill that:

    1. gives income to people during this crisis.

    2. helps hospitals buy needed equipment.

  47. //I notice none of the Americans are taking your side on this at this time.//

    Well, that’s as much proof of our arguments being right as you can get on ATW, I suppose.

  48. Again, I am in favor of reducing tuition at state universities

    I don’t support Democratic Party vote buying.

    Atrocious public policy no matter how you look at it.

  49. The conversation’s about student’s being denied access to higher education because of finances.

    ……while those arguing against it are seemingly happy enough to see their taxes used to build more powerful bombs and bigger guns.

  50. There are small businesses that are shut down that may never open again, there are medical supplies in the loop that need to be paid for, the “Pandemic” may not kill many people but it put the nations economy on a ventilator and the Democrats are standing on the airline choking it not letting it breath so the can expand Obamacare, Vote by Mail, Fund failed solar and wind companies and reward less than 10% of the country because they use their union dues for campaign funds.

    As for me calling anyone a fool…. well if you think the spin that there is a 500 Billion dollar slush fund… well you are a fool it’s just that simple.

    Thw WHOLE reason they are calling it a “Slush Fund” is because the discretion on where the money goes is left to Mnuchen, and the Dems want a House Committee to control it, but not one of you know that because fools don’t read anything except what their handlers give them to read…. baa baa sheep

  51. I’m glad to see you’re all more concerned about student debt rather than working peoples lives…..

  52. The conversation’s about student’s being denied access to higher education because of finances.

    No, that’s not any part of this conversation

    The conversation includes a proposal to forgive the debt of college grads

  53. The student debt thing again would create more injustice and not less.

    A bad idea promoted by politicians who have a lot of other bad ideas

  54. and

    —$15/hr minimum wage
    —Same day voter registration
    —ZERO ID requirements for mail-in ballots
    —Automatic extensions for immigrant work visas

    What does that have to do with fighting this virus?

    it’s all in the house bill…….

  55. I was always, always, always in favor of line item veto

    Put an end to this idiotic tieing bullshit

  56. My Daughter goes to Widener an expensive collegw, but she’s going there for her Doctorate because she did not want to carry the debt of U of P…. her choice.

    Responsibility, and planning for her future…. study a field where she can be employed and make good money (Psychology) and getting her doctorate as affordable as she could…

  57. here here a Line Item Veto….. I don’t care which party is in power I’m in favor of it.

  58. That’s another one with the supreme court messed up

  59. yup

  60. If you take time to look and read the Pelosi and Schumer bill you will understand their priorities. They have nothing to do with the virus. NOTHING.

  61. It is not acceptable to give 500 billion to large corporations with no conditions. Conditions should include repayment with interest, no stock buybacks, no executive bonuses, etc. The previous bailout was done with no conditions and the US got burned.

    The airlines threatened to lay off their employees if they did not get a government bailout. That is bribery by a industry that needs a shake up. They have made handsome profits for several years. Did they forget to have a contingency fund for rainy days? That is incompetence by top management. Maybe if they were replaced we would have better airlines that would serve the customer better.

  62. They aren’t given corporations 500 billion with no strings NYr it’s pure bull spun by the left to leverage their attempted special interest grab…..

    It’s the Democrats that want to line every special interest group they have’s pockets create a mail in and same day register vote to steel elections and mostly try and stop the Case against Obamacare in the supreme court and they are holding the lives and businesses of the american people hostage because their special interests are more important than the peasants lives.

  63. PVR

    What strings are attached to those corporations receiving the 500 billion?

  64. I’m glad to see you’re all more concerned about student debt rather than working peoples lives…..

    If you want to have a look at shielding working people from this you should read up on what the governments of Ireland, the UK & Denmark are doing instead of using this (again) as another Trump = good, Dems = bad post.

    Student debt affects working people for a sizeable part of their lives.

    No, that’s not any part of this conversation

    Yes, that’s why we’ve been discussing it for the last number of comments.

  65. The issue , as raised by Patrick, is attempts by Dems to stuff forgiveness of student debt provisions into a stimulus bill.

    That provision would not increase the availability of education for anyone. It is backward looking.

    Some of us are confusing tuition fee policies now and in the future with the proposal to have taxpayers give money to those who took out loans in the past.

  66. The issue , as raised by Patrick, is attempts by Dems to stuff forgiveness of student debt provisions into a stimulus bill

    Yes, if you look at Noel’s comment from around 10.09 last night you’ll see the conversation developed beyond that.

    Some of us are confusing tuition fee policies now and in the future with the proposal to have taxpayers give money to those who took out loans in the past.

    Not at all. It’s an abstract conversation as to whether education sould be free.

  67. It will never be free

    The Question is who pays for it

    If we propose to let people not pay their education loans, Then why not let people skip out on their car loans and other debts

    But we can agree that debt forgiveness won’t increase the availability of education

  68. It will never be free

    The Question is who pays for it

    ‘Free’ in the sense of a ‘free’ health service.

    If we propose to let people not pay their education loans, Then why not let people skip out on their car loans and other debts

    I haven’t said that people should noy pay their loans retrospectively. As seen above, the conversation moved beyond that to one of a ‘free’ education. As for the question itself, see the comments above as to why a highly educated workforce is beneficial to the economy.

  69. We agree that education is good

    This could lead to a larger discussion about education in our various countries

    In the US, the problem is not that too few people go to college; the problem is that too many people go to college.

    A lot of people would benefit more from a proper trade school or apprenticeship then they would from Liberal arts in college, in many case boring the student to death, and gives them no useful skills.

    I think that we’ve discussed this here before, but there’s very little discussion of it in the US political circles.

    We need more master plumbers, electricians, and carpenters, and fewer sociology students. A skilled tradesman is rarely out of work here. You have to work hard to find one, they earn good money

  70. I absolutely agree that that vocational training is an absolute nessescity and in many cases a better road to follow however I don’t think that it should negate the desire to go to university, (incidentally, if the argument is that higher education should be paid couldn’t the same standard be applied to vocational courses?).

    Whilst I agree to an extent with the above I usually find that thos pushing the vocational approach are invariably university graduates.

  71. That’s not true at all.

    Talk to an electrician or plumber. Those guys will tell you. They will often counsel their children about the security that such jobs have, That they will continue to have long into the future

    I’ve spoken to more than one person who Deeply regrets having spent three or four lost years in college, when they should have entered an entry level ironworker or electrician job, or joined the military in A construction unit. such as the Navy’s Seabees, where they could have learned everything imaginable

  72. I think you’ve got it completely reversed

    It is the university establishment here that promotes the bad ethic that everybody should go to college.

    That has harmed working people

  73. I haven’t claimed any such thing but merely commented on the empirical observation that those advocationg a vocational discipline are usually university graduates.

  74. I would also argue that all degrees have some value. Obviously some degrees have greater value than others – especially in terms of job prospects. But ultimately a person with a “useless” degree will still likely have greater job opportunities and command better salary than a person without one.

  75. That might be an empirical observation of Conversations that you yourself have had

  76. Phantom, have a look at the definition of ’empirical’

    How many people here advocating the vocational route aren’t university graduates?

  77. This is a very small website, It is not a useful sample for any observation

    Until very recently, we had more than one person here saying that the government had no proper role in healthcare, when just about nobody in the real world was saying crazy things like that

  78. Careers guidance councillors, political commentators, economists etc invariably have degrees.

  79. Until very recently, we had more than one person here saying that the government had no proper role in healthcare, when just about nobody in the real world was saying crazy things like that

    Phantom there are 64 MILLION AMERICANS THAT VOTED TO GET RID OF OBAMACARE……

    but they aren’t liberal gits so they’re not in your real BUBBLE world……..

  80. The Republicans were voted into Power to REMOVE GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE. AND your hero THE DISEASED SCUMBAG traitor John McCain said FU to those 64 million people WITH HIS LAST ACT OF SCUMBAGGERY BEFORE HIS ROTTED BRAIN WENT OUT FOR GOOD.

    And the Republicans were punished for betraying their word and thanks to that scumbags last act the Dems regained control of the House.

  81. And Trump promised health care for all that was cheaper and better

    Well, where is it. What is the pathway to getting there. Be as specific as you like, after all these years

  82. Trump said that he would deliver something better than Obamacare. He promised that. That is what you voted for

  83. Couldn’t do it because first the Bill to cancel Obamacare had to pass Scumbag McCain prevented any progress from going forward. No improvements of any kind can take place until the Law is removed thank your buddy.

    Did you read Taibbi’s latest ?

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/richard-burr-coronavirus-insider-trading-972101/

  84. The new Healthcare will come after the Supreme Court rules Obamacare Unconstitutional because the Tax has been removed one of the things Nancy with the botox face is trying to stuff in this Bill is a Prevention of the case being heard by the Supreme Court…… because she knows it’s unconstitutional and the piece Roberts used to say that it was has been removed….

  85. If there is no individual requirement to pay into the system, it can never work well, people will always be left out. You guys may be unintentionally creating a situation where single payer tax funded is the only option, since you oppose every private inustry option that would cover everybody.


    Thanks for the Taiibi article. He’s smart as all hell. His dad is a tv news guy for NBC.

  86. Look, if anything good comes out all this mess.

    Maybe, just possibly maybe, but I don’t hold out much hope with current bunch on New World Order power crazed monsters “leading” us plebs.

    “They” put as much effort into finding new and exciting ways of curing us little people, rather than killing us.

    But I won’t bother holding my breath on that one.

  87. Individual mandate was removed

    The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the mandate was constitutional in 2012, but in December 2017, Congress passed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which eliminated the individual mandate penalty, effective January 1, 2019.

    so And without the insurance requirement, dubbed the individual mandate, the entire ACA was unconstitutional, because it needed the mandate to accomplish its policy goals, 20 states argued that and won in the 5th circuit…. Dem groups have appealed it all the way to the Supreme Court and The Administration joined them in that suit.

    Supreme Court will take up challenge to Obamacare’s …
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-will-take-challenge
    Mar 02, 2020 · The Supreme Court said Monday that it will take up a legal challenge to Obamacare, agreeing to hear the case in its new term that begins in October.

    One of the things Nancy is insisting is that this Bill include a clause that makes it ILLEGAL to challenge the ACA at the Supreme Court……

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