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SHIVER ME TIMBERS!

By Pete Moore On April 4th, 2020

WSJ: Germany Cries Foul Over Berlin-Bound Masks Diverted to U.S.

German officials said a shipment of face masks destined for Germany was seized at Bangkok airport and diverted to the U.S. in an act of “modern piracy”—the latest accusation that the Trump administration is throwing its weight around in the global scramble to secure scarce protective equipment needed in the fight against coronavirus infections.

It’s a rum do, if the German accusation is correct. But I can’t find too much sympathy for a country which stiffed the Swiss by cancelling contracts for medical supplies, even turning back trucks at the border, and which stiffed the Italians in multiple ways.

Maybe President Trump is on a mission to waste all that goodwill that other countries have expressed for him. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation reports that Trump is to stop the export of masks and other medical equipment. It comes after Canadian government officials said that they were pressing the U.S. not to block shipments of N95 masks to Canada. Good luck with that request.

It’s every country for itself at the moment.

190 Responses to “SHIVER ME TIMBERS!”

  1. But I can’t find too much sympathy for a country which stiffed the Swiss by cancelling contracts for medical supplies, even turning back trucks at the border, and which stiffed the Italians in multiple ways.

    Whilst I agree with the sentiments the old adage of two wrongs not making a right also comes into play, (if the allegations are true).

  2. While each national government obviously first and foremost has to do its best to look after its own citizens, with a crisis like this that is truly global , it can only be properly dealt with by calm but clear global cooperation. Hopefully incidents like this and the earlier German one will be reduced as initial ‘panic’ measures give way to a genuine international effort.

  3. The US say they came from 3m a us company therefore we are taking it. Moreover they paid for it. I agree it’s hard to sympathise with Germany and the US need is great. Greater even. Lesson for us is make things you need in this country.

  4. bullshit you’ve got wackos like Cuomo and Pelosi screaming that they have no equipment in the US and demanding that we nationalize these companies. The President put in place the order that allows the government to demand a company make what it tells them to make and who they can sell it to.

    3M received that order and then proceeded to ignore it because they could get more money selling the commandeered products overseas.

  5. because they could get more money selling the commandeered products overseas

    Now who told you that

    Please don’t quote the president of United States, he is not a credible source.

  6. Is the foreign incorporated subsidiary of a US company subject to the demands of a US president?

    I would not be so sure about that

    The US is home to subsidiaries Of say German and Chinese parent companies. Should those subsidiaries be subject to the diktats of Markel or of the Chinese communist party?

  7. If they were made in Thailand and there was a lawful contract with the Germans and they were on their way to be shipped to the customer there is no excuse for any other order countering that sale. It’s not acceptable and such selfishness whoever does it will harm the goodwill that is needed everywhere to fight this pandemic.

  8. everything trumpd does and says is cheap smutty and 3rd world
    no suprises here then , he thinks the WH is just another Trump Tower
    and can carry on in the lying cheating scummy way he’s done all his life

  9. That sounds correct

    And I don’t think that any blanket ban on exports of such products from the US Would be justified either

    If We blocked exports to friendly countries say such as Canada Or in Latin America, who would ever trust us as a manufacturing partner ever again?

    This is complicated

  10. Ok, there’s an immediate need for masks.

    Beyond that, Americans of any stripe need to demand an answer as to why the US needs to import masks by fair means or foul. That goes for me and my country.

    Masks are very simple things. Somewhere in our countries there must be firms which can immediately make huge numbers of them. If not, there had better be such companies soon.

  11. Pete

    Fair point.

    Dr. Osterholm agrees with you. We have been idiots to allow our medical supply industry to be moved to unfriendly countries thousands of miles away, and with even what remains of our domestic industry reliant on parts from the same unfriendly countries, based on ” just in time ” practices.

    We put ourselves in this hole over a period of decades, hopefully it begins to be reversed now.

  12. agree petem its a bit of a joke POTUS Trunk slagging off Jina
    then asking for masks, but then again he’s a cheap guy

  13. Trump has generally been on the right side of this immediate issue

    He has wanted manufacturing returned to the US, has been saying it for decades.

  14. Yeah he was on TV last night saying you can make them yourself at home

  15. I’m genuinely astonished that the US – the US, not Mozambique – has to change laws and strong arm firms and (apparently) hijack supplies in Thailand, just to get some masks.

    Masks!

    My gob is genuinely smacked.

  16. This crisis has exposed the madness of relying on China for anything. After causing the pandemic it has been trying to regain influence by supplying protective clothing and test kits. Ireland received useless clothing and Spain has sent thousands of useless “test kits” back.

    I say **** China. We are learning a very important lesson the hard way, and let’s hope we don’t forget it. There can be no return to “globalisation as usual” when this is over.

  17. There can be no return to “globalisation as usual” when this is over.

    Wherever production costs are cheaper will prevail Peter.

  18. No Paul, we have seen how exposed that leaves us in a crisis. Watch out for a big change in attitudes to manufacturing, particulary items deemed strategic. And there will be a great increase in hostility to China and its predatory mercantilism. Its economy stands to be the biggest loser after this is over and it will be well-deserved.

  19. The availability of medical products is a national security issue, if anything is.

    Let’s fix this, and then all our nations/blocs need to have a deep think about how to deal with the next virus or whatever. which could be much worse than this one is.

    This is a painful, expensive wake up call. We wish it never happened, but the upside is that lessons will be learned, if we choose to learn them.

    Again, Dr. Osterholm has sounded the alarm on pandemics and on the offshoring of medical product production since the 1990s. Two weeks ago, he said that the situation for the US was now worse than it was back then. ( I would think that the same would be true for Europe )

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2020/03/18/lead-4p-michael-osterholm-live-jake-tapper.cnn

  20. I’m with you lot. How can countries like ours that invented the Industrial Revolution and put a man on the moon not have the manufacturing capability to put a cloth over our faces??!! It’s a disgrace.

    To echo Phantom, Trump has been on the right side of the manufacturing issue since day 1. It’s high time we take back making things in our strategic interests.

  21. I would think that the same would be true for Europe

    Yes, with the exception of Germany of course.

  22. Yes Charles, agreed.

  23. phantom that was a cracking informative interview
    how come dr michael osterholm isn’t in the WH briefings, he communicates very well !

  24. Phantom, on April 4th, 2020 at 7:25 PM Said:
    because they could get more money selling the commandeered products overseas

    Now who told you that

    Please don’t quote the president of United States, he is not a credible source.

    Do you understand how stupid that statement makes you look, somehow I doubt it.

    First off the act enacted is a war act it was last used in WWII in the tooling of our nations manufacturers for the war effort. Since that time we have moved our manufacturing off shore. (the stupidity of which is now being shown). It doesn’t matter where the product is manufactured or who it was contracted to, it’s the property of the US Government.

    That’s what enacting that Act does. The fact that due to economics these plants are located off shore under this law means nothing…

    This panic has done more good than the short term disasters it has caused. The massive holes in the system and the total lack of preparedness world wide has revealed itself in very ugly ways and may not be done yet.

    The thing that scares me the most is that the idiots running all our nations won’t learn the lesson and do what needs to be done to correct these problems from reoccuring.

  25. Who told you that something made outside the US by non-US citizens who are paid by a Chinese/German/whatever corporation that in turn is owned by a US holding company is ” property of the US “.

    I don’t think that the US president has any powers like that. He has them inside the borders of the US, but he is not dictator of the world.

    You will think that I am busting your balls but I am not.

    There are German owned factories in Pennsylvania. Do you think that Chancellor Merkel has the right to redirect the exports of products produced in them?

  26. it was last used in WWII in the tooling of our nations manufacturers for the war effort

    No, it’s been used loads of times since, including by Trump:

    “In 2011, President Barack Obama invoked the law to force telecommunications companies, under criminal penalties, to provide detailed information to the Commerce Department’s Bureau of Industry and Security on the use of foreign-manufactured hardware and software in the companies’ networks, as part of efforts to combat Chinese cyberespionage.[10]

    In June 13, 2017, President Donald Trump invoked the law to classify two sets of products as “critical to national defense”. The first referenced “items affecting aerospace structures and fibers, radiation-hardened microelectronics, radiation test and qualification facilities, and satellite components and assemblies”.[12][13] The second referenced “items affecting adenovirus vaccine production capability; high strength, inherently fire and ballistic resistant, co-polymer aramid fibers industrial capability; secure hybrid composite shipping container industrial capability; and three-dimensional ultra-high density microelectronics for information protection industrial capability”.[14][15]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950

  27. Erm, Charles?

    About the Industrial Revolution …

  28. Pete, that would be a British gift to an undeserving world!

  29. Pete

    It was started by Benjamin Franklin when he invented the lightning conductor and the dumb waiter in the 1770s. I thought everyone knew that.

  30. I encountered a dumb waiter once. Took the order all wrong.

  31. Exactly Charles, that’s exactly it!

    Peter –

    I think that Mr Franklin was flying a kite. Textile manufacturers in Lancashire and the Midlands really sparked the Industrial Revolution in he 1730s and 40s.

  32. petem I was in stroud a while back, they still make the cloth for wimbledon tennis balls and the green beige for snooker tables. when i found out they made the red coats too a long ago, it was time to scarper 🙂

  33. Yes Pete, I was trying to be ironic. Actually I think it was Jefferson who invented the dumb waiter, maybe after his slave girl went on strike. I’m getting those rebels mixed up.

  34. someone should make a fun film about what USA would look like if the Queen was still the head of state, would pat and charles line the streets and doff your hats to the visting monarchs as she waved the royal wave ,..lol

  35. you’d be arrested if you owned a weapon .. oops

  36. yes the US was an is the industrial backwater of the world….. you all beat us horribly whatever would we do without you… god I’m laughing so hard I’m gonna pee myself.

  37. I think Charles has been misinterpreted. I am sure his comment was a reference respectively to the U.K. ( Industrial Revolution ) and the USA ( Man on the moon ). He wasn’t claiming both achievements for The US alone.

  38. the US was an is the industrial backwater of the world

    The US was behind Britain and Germany until about 1900.

  39. What’s beyond dispute is the vast US manufacturing and economic power. So even with the fact of exported jobs I’m astonished at the international scramble for a simple garment like an N95 mask. It should be able to chuck out thousands of them by the minute.

    It’s also good to see that some things, however, never change, like PVR misreading everything.

  40. PVM

    “That’s what enacting that Act does.” Has Trump specifically ordered 3M to manufacture masks using his power under this act? I don’t know and have not read that he has but maybe you know more.

  41. I am waiting for Patrick to come on and tell us that the Americans not only started the industrial revolution but they managed to do so while winning the Battle of Trafalgar, the Crimean war and heck even the Battle of Hastings 😉

  42. NY

    Patrick knows **** all about that Act, see my 9.30pm which he has not responded to.

  43. oh excuse me I’m supposed to sit here and jump to answer you…. well forgive me all to hell.

    In both those incidents Peter the Act was not used in the manner it is being used here and it has many different levels that it can be applied at and on. It hasn’t been used in the manner it is being used now since WWII

    but you know all, studying at the feet of the master know it all Phantom.

    All the questions any of us have about anything the great sages of ATW Peter and Phantom have the answers…. all gaze upon their brilliance…..

    Peter you’re going to love my post on Models when this panic is over…. lol

  44. Do you think that that law allows the US dictator to control overseas made products which have never been in the United States?

    Where does the law say that he has such powers, all over the world?

  45. Colm….. we did all that in our spare time

  46. Yes Phantom that was the whole point of the kerfuffle with 3M

  47. I think that we can ask foreign countries and foreign companies to do things, we cannot order them to do anything

    The US cannot order these foreign based companies to do things. We certainly cannot force them to break contracts that they have already entered .

    I see no evidence that 3M did anything wrong. This sounds like an angry response by an American president who has no clue about how multinational companies work, or the legal environment ( s ) That they operate in.

  48. Phantom

    Patrick obviously thinks that Trump is infallible, just like the Pope. When Trump speaks, he speaks Truth and Wisdom and Justice. For sure. And of course He Never Lies. Not Ever.

  49. 3M is an American based company subject to the Act. Whether or not they could skirt it because of where the manufacturing was taking place was what 3M’s excuse was. 3M backed down real fast so whether or not it’s tested in court we may never know.

  50. A quick search seems to say that the 3M Corporation operates in 63 countries

    Do you think that they, and their subsidiaries, and their joint ventures, Should only adhere to US law in all those 63 countries? You think that the law of the other 62 countries don’t have to be respected, Even within the borders of the relevant country?

  51. Let’s say 3M’s UK subsidiary will make a batch of products at a factory in England Tomorrow morning.

    A contract has been signed whereby these products have already been sold to a buyer in Italy, They will be sent out by cargo airplane tomorrow evening

    The American dictator issues a command Saying that he wants these products to be diverted to the United States.

    What should the 3M UK management do?

  52. Peter,

    I say **** China. We are learning a very important lesson the hard way, and let’s hope we don’t forget it. There can be no return to “globalisation as usual” when this is over.

    I’ll make a prediction for you, let’s see if I’m right.
    Europe will carry on as usual with China after this is over.
    The only country who might impose some sort of punishment, is the US under Trumps leadership.

  53. The public of the US were told last month that masks must not be worn because they spread disease

    https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160

    U.S. Surgeon General
    @Surgeon_General
    ·
    29 Feb
    Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!

    They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!
    http://bit.ly/37Ay6Cm

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/#79d917b2676c

    And now we’re told that masks are needed.

    A shower of idiots is running the show. They haven’t a clue 🙂 but the public is so stupid that it really doesn’t matter

  54. No they are subject to their 63 juridictions, but 3Ms books are held as an american company and this Act was designed in it’s full extent for use in the time of war. If those assets in those 63 countries are assets held in majority as 2M property it would apply.

    joint ventures….. that would be interesting to hear the case. I’m sure the amount of fight and pressure the fed would exert would be contingent on the necessity of the items in question.

  55. Dave you’re probably right.

  56. If they broke the contract, they would be breaking both British and Italian law- And they would be damaging all of their own European relationships. Their usual customers would never trust them again

  57. Allan the more information we gain over time will change parameters of what should and should not be done.

  58. The Companies excuse and pass on responsibility for the broken contracts is the US Government ordered them to, the liability and the feather soothing both fall on the US Government.

    The offended party can take the US Govt to Court or get their feathers soothed by it. It would be up to the offended Parties and the USG, 3M would be shielded and have no say.

  59. Patrick Van Roy, on April 5th, 2020 at 12:41 AM Said:
    Allan the more information we gain over time will change parameters of what should and should not be done.

    Patrick – are you being serious? Masks and viruses have been around for a very long time, ‘pandemics’ have occurred regularly and yet the US Surgeon-General has no idea whether masks would prevent transmission. It’s pure farce, but I’m enjoying it 🙂

  60. Check this out:

    https://twitter.com/RichieAllenShow/status/1245714536457437184

    Richie Allen
    @RichieAllenShow
    ·
    2 Apr
    Ridiculous headline throws real doubt on the covid-19 death toll.
    “Comedian dies from coronavirus as he was being treated in hospital for heart failure!” Think about it…

    Patrick – did your 70-year-old friend with MS and on a ventilator die from Coronavirus or were there other issues? Think about it

  61. I’m not going to discuss that Allan.

  62. I’ll make a prediction for you, let’s see if I’m right. Europe will carry on as usual with China after this is over.

    No Dave. Good luck to any party trying to get re-elected on a “Let’s be nice to China” ticket.

  63. yes because they’ve been so stern with the EU there’s your model…..

  64. Trump is playing a total blinder and totally deserves to keep his tax returns totally secret from the voters, yes Patrick?

  65. To examine someones records for proof of a crime you must first know the crime you are looking for.

    You can not seize or view someones records in the HOPE of finding a crime that is one of the main tenants of the 4th Amendment. To be Secure in your Papers.

    No probable cause no peeking…. and not liking you because you became President is NOT probable cause.

  66. “Representative Lloyd Doggett, Democrat of Texas, pointed out that the Commerce Department was still advertising measures to help American businesses export medical products to China as late as mid-March, even after administration officials told Congress they might face a shortage of face masks.

    In January and February, United States exports of ventilators and oxygenation products to China were up 138 percent from the previous year, while exports of gas and face masks with filters rose 1315 percent, according to data from the Census Bureau analyzed by Mr. Doggett’s office. Exports of protective garments were up 493 percent in the same period, while exports of disinfectant products rose 225 percent, the data show.

    “Ignoring the obvious need to prepare for a pandemic, the Trump administration promoted substantially increased export of face masks, ventilators, and other vital equipment to China rather than protecting our health care workers,” Mr. Doggett said in a statement. “Many Americans are now paying with their lives for Trump denial, delay, and deception.” NYT 4/3/20

  67. lol….. another TDS victim

  68. HMMMM the fibre needed to make those masks comes exclusively from Canada, if turnip won’t let the masks be exported to Canada what incentive does Canada have to allow the export of the fibre?

    Its a bit of a head scratcher

    And now time for something completely different

    “An Open Letter to the president”
    From the Drummer of Mötley Crüe, Tommy Lee ( WARNING ADULT LANGUAGE)

    Dear Fucking Lunatic,
    At your recent press conference – more a word salad that had a stroke and fell down stairs, you were CLEARLY so out of your depth you needed scuba gear. Within minutes of going off air your minions were backpedaling faster than Cirque De Soliel acrobats… In India a week ago, i couldn’t get past the bit about your being the most popular visitor in the history of fucking india — a country of a BILLION human souls that’s only 3000 years old, give or take.!!! Trust me – Gandhi pulled CROWDS.. You pulled a cricket stadium and half WALKED out…
    Do you know how fucking insane you sound, you off-brand butt plug? That’s like the geopolitical equivalent of “that stripper really likes me” — only 10,000 times crazier and less self aware.
    You are fucking exhausting. Every day is a natural experiment in determining how long 300 million people can resist coring out their own assholes with an ice auger. Every time I hear a snippet of your Queens-tinged banshee larynx farts, I want to scream!
    We are fucking tired. As bad as we all thought your presidency would be when Putin got you elected, it’s been inestimably worse.
    You called a hostile, nuclear-armed head of state “short and fat.” How the fuck does that help?
    You accused a woman — a former friend, no less — of showing up at your resort bleeding from the face and begging to get in. You, you, YOU — the guy who looks like a Christmas haggis inexplicably brought to life by Frosty’s magic hat — yes, you of all people said that.
    You attempted — with evident fucking glee — to get 24 million people thrown off their health insurance.
    You gave billions away to corporations and the already wealthy while simultaneously telling struggling poor people that you were doing exactly the opposite.
    You endorsed a pedophile, praised brutal dictators, and defended LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS!
    Ninety-nine percent of everything you say is either false, crazy, incoherent, just plain cruel, or a rancid paella of all four.
    Oh, by the way, Puerto Rico is still FUBAR. You got yourself and your family billions in tax breaks for Christmas. What do they get? More paper towels?
    Enough, enough, enough, enough! For the love of God and all that is holy, good, and pure, would you please, finally and forever, shut your feculent KFC-hole until you have something valuable — or even marginally civil — to say?
    You are a fried dick sandwich with a side of schlongs. If chlamydia and gonorrhea had a son, you’d appoint him HHS secretary. You are a disgraceful, pustulant hot stew full of casuistry, godawful ideas, unintelligible non sequiturs, and malignant rage.
    You are the perfect circus orangutan diaper from Plato’s World of Forms.
    So fuck you Mr. President. And fuck you forever.
    Oh, and Pence, you oleaginous house ferret. Fuck you, too. You’ll be as useful as a chocolate teapot against a medical crisis you Bible thumping cock socket.”

  69. sums it up EP, that is how the sane feel about the insane Trunk
    those who defend him sold their soul and have no freaking idea what it like to have a pulse
    they’re zombies in the dawn of the dead ..

  70. EP
    this is palmers take of another psychotic presser

    worth bookmarking

    By the time Donald Trump had finished cursing out the Inspector General, and had moved on to threatening to ingest an untested and potentially fatal coronavirus drug, it was clear that he was desperate to get his rocks off today. He didn’t care if this press conference helped or hurt him, he only cared about taking out his frustrations as his presidency fails.

    What’s remarkable is that this was precisely the opposite script that Donald Trump’s babysitters decided he needed today. They began the day by posting things on Trump’s Twitter account about little league baseball, and praise for frontline workers. Then they gave him a fairly conciliatory script to read at the start of the press conference. They really wanted him to bail himself out a bit today by sounding like a mentally stable human being.

    Then Donald Trump totally blew it by doing what we all watched him do today. He set himself up for yet another ugly news cycle documenting his psychotic behavior. He gave credence to his detractors who claim he’s mentally unstable. He hurt himself further today, at a time when even his own diaper changers knew he was in need of a non-psychotic press conference. Trump blew it.

    https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/just-totally-blew-it-donald-trump-2/27316/

  71. I ave a slight feeling that Tommy Lee isn’t necessarily a great fan of the President. 😉

  72. lol magnificent isn’t it colm 🙂

  73. The letter is not from the infamous drummer, he posted it and it has been attributed to him on social media. However most of the text dates back to 2017 apparently. Some funny lines though.

  74. Has anybody actually gone outside and visited the hospitals where the MSM tell us that the “war zones” are to be found? Ordinary people are taking their phones with them and doing exactly that, and here are the results – zilch going on…..

    https://twitter.com/DeAnna4Congress/status/1244342772783394822

    DeAnna Lorraine🇺🇸

    @DeAnna4Congress
    Just went to 2 hospitals in LA to check out these “War Zones” the MSM keeps telling us about.🏥

    They are very quiet & EMPTY.
    We are not being told the truth. Why?? Let’s get #FilmYourHospital trending. We ARE the news now. We can’t trust the news. Post pics of ur hospital here!

    https://twitter.com/Magicflapjacks/status/1245068683669639168

    Went to the testing site for Jersey city,NJ where we apparently have so many cases.

    Waving black flag Ultra Metal Urge Waving black flag
    @BTC_Cowboy
    ·
    1 Apr
    Replying to
    @Magicflapjacks
    I live in that area and have drove past that testing site on multiple occasions in the last week. Never more than a couple cars in line.

    Footage from Italy is being used as ‘American’ hospitals. It’s a lie, possibly 6 million times bigger than the previous one

  75. Allan – the amount of easily debunked nonsense you believe (or simply peddle) must take an inordinate amount of effort.

  76. Media being called liars. here’s Elmhurst Hopsital in Queens NY where the media is reporting of having the highest cases and deaths yet its empty…

    https://twitter.com/smartpower4all/status/1245834545213120515

    M White
    @MWhite0523
    ·
    3 Apr
    Replying to
    @smartpower4all
    Thanks. Keep em coming
    Brooklyn’s my hometown.. ain’t shit going on in Florida either. #filmyourhospital

  77. https://twitter.com/alx/status/1244647836031074304

    ALX 🇺🇸
    @alx
    ·
    30 Mar
    During a Pandemic it is essential that the Media gives us real and accurate information.

    It’s completely irresponsible for
    @CBSNews
    to use footage from an Italian Hospital when talking about the outbreak in New York City.

    This is unacceptable.

    Take a look – CBS really did use footage from an Italian hospital and passed it off as being in NY. Fake news

  78. A number of New York City hospitals are Overburdened

    There are major problems in other parts of the United States too

    There is a big problem in the smaller city of Albany Georgia where the one hospital is over burdened

  79. Phantom, on April 5th, 2020 at 12:34 PM Said:
    A number of New York City hospitals are Overburdened

    OK – which ones?

  80. Read the paper, conspiracy man

  81. I live near St Thomas hospital in London one of the biggest in the U.K. I hear and see the ambulances going into the hospital to a much greater extent than I ever did before. One of the reasons hospitals may appear to be ‘empty’ is because they are no longer filled with visitors and outpatients which in normal times makes up large numbers of visible people in the public areas.

    If this is a fake then literally millions of ordinary people around the world working in hospitals, other public health fields and essential services must all be in on it and all agreeing to participate in the cruel hoax and that is just ludicrous. Allan I can see an argument for opposing governments strategies in dealing with this, but to claim it is all a hoax is even more absurd than your 9/11 theories.

  82. He is spending his entire life talking nonsense like this

    He actually thinks that his comments make sense, as do others like him, including a couple of people here.

    Astonishing

    Keep talking, Allan

  83. Phantom – Allan has a psychological disorder.

  84. The annoying is that actually some on Allan’s “Corona sceptic’ comments and links are worth reading and it’s always worth looking at different perspectives on such things as the mortality rate and comprehensive impacts on the virus but he spoils such appropriate scepticism when he moves into the ridiculous realms of implying the whole global pandemic is an intentional hoax to which whole swathes of organisations from health workers to politicians to the media are all engaged in.

  85. Allan – the amount of easily debunked nonsense you believe (or simply peddle) must take an inordinate amount of effort.

    It’s got to the stage now where I don’t even bother reading the posts anymore never mind the often weird & wonderful links.

    Ochoa Hospital in Madrid:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR90_2e2NYs

  86. Phantom,
    //He is spending his entire life talking nonsense like this//

    Yep. Many years ago I used to engage with Allan. Thing is, he doesn’t want to hear what you’ve got to say, despite asking questions and pretending he wants to engage with people, he’s not actually interested in your opinion. If you provide evidence to show he’s wrong about something, he just ignores it and moves on to something else, in true conspiracy theorist fashion.

  87. Paul McMahon,

    It’s got to the stage now where I don’t even bother reading the posts anymore never mind the often weird & wonderful links.

    I pretty much ignore all of Allan’s longer posts now.
    It makes me wonder how many people on ATW actually read his stuff.
    He seems to go to a lot of trouble, but I think he’s wasting his time on ATW.

  88. Allan has got a point though, particularly when it comes to the MSM.

    The MSM will have an awful lot to answer for after this pandemic resides.

    Using the same image of a hospital claiming this is a NY hospital, then and Italian hospital, the MSM also used a particular image of coffins lined up in a church. The image was actually the aftermath of many refugees who had drowned claiming these were Covid-19 victims.

    Why would they do that?

    Mistakes are made of course, but this is not the time for MSM sensationalism.

    History will not hopefully treat the MSM well.

  89. Yes.

    He does have fans here.

    But I haven’t opened his links For a long time now. There is simply no point.

    It is said that virus mortality may peak in NYC, New Orleans and Detroit this week. It will be a very tough time for everybody, especially the great people in the hospitals. But if the number of deaths go lower and lower every week from now, That will of course be good

    NYC’s lockdown is paying benefits. CA and WA earlier lockdowns have also been very helpful.

    A large number of states and local communities have not had any real lockdown, and their residents will pay a terrible price for that

  90. Dave,

    What you have to understand if that Allan is first & foremost a propagandist. He has no interest in debate, discussion or opinion his objective is to spread the narrative hence the mantra of look at the links. Much like his Daily Stormtrooper truth is unimportant, nothing must detract from the narrative.

    Occasionally he’ll pull me into a brief conversation but I find that usually he’s best left to his own devices.

  91. But he is a very incompetent propagandist

    The job of a good propaganda person is to Bring the unconvinced over to their point of view

    A good propagandist would know the difference between what is true and what is not true

    Allan Does not know the line between what is true and what is not true, he believes all sorts of complete nonsense, And he couldn’t convince any smart person of anything if his life depended on it

    He’s a caricature

  92. Phantom.

    Is this fantasist propaganda?

    https://factcheck.afp.com/these-photos-show-coffins-victims-boat-disaster-2013

  93. And Phantom.

    Don’t pretend to be smart.

    It doesn’t suit you.

  94. Harri -an error by a media outlet doesn’t equate to a widespread conspiracy by the entire media to fool people. Cop on.

  95. Mahons.

    Yes. This is why I posted this…

    Why would they do that?
    Mistakes are made of course, but this is not the time for MSM sensationalism.

    You probably just missed that part?

  96. No. I just don’t revere your past comments as much as you do. Defending Allan’s ludicrous claims that no one is dying and it’s all made up by the media even in part is specious.

  97. Phantom.

    Me being a ‘fanboy’ something, something or other of Allan.

    In your world of Phantom is the all knowing oracle of well, just about everything about everything.

    Would you say I also believe the Chinese Covid-19 pathogen virus is a hoax?

    Please, be as specific as you like, without mentioning your favourite straw man, Alex Jones.

    Just for once.

    Or a simple yes, or no will suffice.

  98. Harri is 100% in Allan’s orbit.

    He has AFAIK never once corrected Allan, has never once criticized him.

    He is a completely naive follower.

  99. Mahons, on April 5th, 2020 at 2:32 PM Said:
    No. I just don’t revere your past comments as much as you do. Defending Allan’s ludicrous claims that no one is dying and it’s all made up by the media even in part is specious.

    Have I personally ever stated on ATW that no one is dying?

    So who is defending Allans ludicrous claims no one is dying.

    Have you actually any proof of that?

  100. I think that sometimes you’ll have a lazy journalist who’ll trawl Facebook and Twitter, where the above images were shared, and present them as a story. But human negligence doesn’t equate to conspiracy.

  101. Phantom, on April 5th, 2020 at 2:35 PM Said:
    Harri is 100% in Allan’s orbit.

    Phantom is permanently stuck in Phantoms orbit.

    It’s not a good place to be,

  102. Phantom.

    Stop waffling.

    Answer the question.

    Would you say I also believe the Chinese Covid-19 pathogen virus is a hoax?
    Please, be as specific as you like, without mentioning your favourite straw man, Alex Jones.
    Just for once.
    Or a simple yes, or no will suffice.

  103. Harri -you said he has a point especially when it comes to the MSM.

    Maybe you mentioned to write Allan’s claims are of course false but on occasion the media does make errors and exploits the situation.

  104. Let’s ask Harri a direct question.

    Harri, do you believe Allan’s latest claim that this is a hoax and the phenomenon of illness and deaths in hospitals is not actually happening. Yes or No.

  105. Intended not mentioned.

  106. Mahons.

    And you said, I was defending Allans claims no one was dying?

    Er, no I didn’t.

  107. Colm, on April 5th, 2020 at 2:40 PM Said:
    Let’s ask Harri a direct question.
    Harri, do you believe Allan’s latest claim that this is a hoax and the phenomenon of illness and deaths in hospitals is not actually happening. Yes or No.

    Colm.

    Absolutely not.

    It’s real, and if you had been taking even the slight mount of notice, I have never claimed otherwise.

    It’s real, and it’s all the fault of the Chinese.

    Colm.

    Go back and read my posts on the Covid-19 pandemic, you will get all the answers to your question there.

  108. Harri stop being coy.

  109. Phantom
    You 2:21 is absolutely spot-on.

    //But he is a very incompetent propagandist
    The job of a good propaganda person is to Bring the unconvinced over to their point of view//

    Allan is a pure conspiracy theorist. Like modern flat earthers, he’s not really interested in convincing people, or the truth. He just wants to assert, (without evidence), that he’s smarter than everybody else because he can see what they can’t.
    in some twisted way, it probably makes him feel better about himself.

    //He’s a caricature//
    Yes.

  110. Mahons

    Stop bullshitting.

  111. Why do you think that Allan Is saying the things that he is saying

    Is he a liar or an idiot

    There is no third choice buddy

  112. That’s fine Harri. The claim that you automatically agree with everything Allan posts can be withdrawn.

  113. Mahons.

    Where did I state “no one is dying”?

    No. I just don’t revere your past comments as much as you do. Defending Allan’s ludicrous claims that no one is dying and it’s all made up by the media even in part is specious.

    Well?

  114. Although I think Allan will be delighted that he is the centre of attention again here on ATW 😉

  115. Colm.

    No worries.

    Now, although a near impossible task for us mere humans, if you could possibly pierce Phantoms orbit.

    Could you try and explain that to him?

  116. Anyway.

    Off for a 5k walk in the wonderful sunshine and English countryside.

    Toodle pip.

    Keep safe.

  117. Colm,

    Although I think Allan will be delighted that he is the centre of attention again here on ATW 😉

    You’re probably right Colm. perhaps that’s one of the reasons Allan does what he does, he craves attention. And he gets that to a degree on ATW. And you’re as guilty as the rest of us.

  118. Harri

    I am happy to do my best to help you and Phantom kiss and make up…. while maintaining the correct social distancing of course 😉

  119. Dave

    Yes I admit I too am guilty as charged.

  120. Allan could be more influential than he has been. They can be correct on things such as bad immigration

    But he chooses not to be effective. Or he has no choice in the matter

    By being a joke and a caricature, he is the deep state’s best friend here by a mile

  121. He just wants to assert, (without evidence), that he’s smarter than everybody else because he can see what they can’t.

    The psychology of conspiracy theories suggests that narcissism is a central factor in them Dave.

  122. Absolutely Paul. That link you posted was very enlightening.

  123. “You can not seize or view someones records in the HOPE of finding a crime that is one of the main tenants of the 4th Amendment.”

    They will not be seizing of viewing Trump’s records. Those records do not belong to Donald Trump. Which is why the attempts to view them did not serve papers against Trump, but against the Treasury Department and the IRS. They are the IRS records. And the law is clear. Congressional committees can review IRS records, and do not need probable cause to do so.

    “Masks are very simple things. Somewhere in our countries there must be firms which can immediately make huge numbers of them. If not, there had better be such companies soon.”

    They are very simple things, which is why they are not produced in many western countries. Simple manufacturing largely doesn’t take place in western countries anymore, because it simply isn’t economically beneficial to do so. Labour intensive, simple manufacturing will be done in countries where labour costs are low. Process intensive, complex manufacturing will be done in countries where the education, infrastructure etc… makes that more appealing.

    Why spend £10 an hour making these things when you can spend £2 an hour making them somewhere else? And is the government, in making those companies do this thing, going to subsidise the £8?

  124. As one sees on this thread, the US Surgeon-General told Americans last month that masks are ineffective against respiratory viruses such as Covid-19. This month, the US Surgeon-General states that masks are considered effective against Covid-19, a respiratory virus. Viruses have been around for a long time, yet the efficacy of masks is still not known?

    One sees that when a “Comedian dies from coronavirus as he was being treated in hospital for heart failure!” and ATW is asked to “Think about it…” nobody can think about it.

    One sees that when it is shown that CBS used footage from a hospital in Italy and passes it off as being in the US, it’s not considered ‘fake news’. Indeed, it’s not considered at all.

    One sees further that when footage taken outside hospitals described by the MSM as a “war zone” reveals that nothing is happening, the ‘intellects’ at ATW begin an examination of the person who placed the footage for review. That one is pretty funny because it does confirm what Peter Hitchens said:

    “What shocked me having spent such a long time in the Soviet Union. under the Soviet Union’s rule most people regarded it with a certain amount of contempt, made jokes about it, realized they were being mocked and fooled. In this case the population accept what they’re being told without any question. It’s extraordinary. The old USSR would have loved to have a population like the current western world which actually genuinely believe the propaganda and does what it’s told.”

    Here’s the footage that ATWers refuse to watch 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pIMD1enwd4&feature=emb_logo

    Here in Scotland, the Chief Medical Officer ignored the strictures which she issued to the masses

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/05/scotland-chief-medical-officer-seen-flouting-lockdown-advice-catherine-calderwood

    Scotland’s chief medical officer has been forced to step back from public briefings after a furious reaction to news she broke her own rules to twice visit her second home during the coronavirus outbreak.

    But despite mounting calls for Catherine Calderwood to resign from her position, Nicola Sturgeon on Sunday insisted that she would continue to play a key role in guiding the Scottish government’s response to the crisis.

    Calderwood knows the hoax and won’t be forced out in case she calls the hoax.

  125. Scotland’s chief medical officer has been forced to step back from public briefings after a furious reaction to news she broke her own rules to twice visit her second home during the coronavirus outbreak.
    But despite mounting calls for Catherine Calderwood to resign from her position, Nicola Sturgeon on Sunday insisted that she would continue to play a key role in guiding the Scottish government’s response to the crisis.

    Ah, but she has apologised (for getting caught) anyway, she is a lefty, some pigs are far more equal than others.

  126. Oh Allan, sometimes I think you deliberately parody yourself.

  127. Allan

    Critical thinking.

    Don’t mention it to Phantom.

    He might go into yet another Alex Jones strawman rant.

  128. Just for clarification, there isn’t ‘nothing’ going on: there is the usual seasonal flu and for many, it’s very serious. But for everybody else, it’s the flu.

  129. Ah, but she has apologised (for getting caught) anyway, she is a lefty, some pigs are far more equal than others

    Harri. Catherine Calderwood is a native of Belfast, the daughter of a psychiatrist and a surgeon. She attended a fee paying grammar school in south Belfast.

    I’ve no idea what her politics are. What makes her a ‘lefty?’

  130. She’s standing next to Nicola Sturgeon, hence she must be a lefty 😉

  131. Paul

    Do you think the SNP would allow anyone from the right to be in that position when Nicola Sturgeon is in charge?

    She is from the left.

  132. Yup.

    She is definitely a lefty..

    Ms Sturgeon’s recent appointment of Catherine Calderwood as Scotland’s Chief Medical Officer has also come under fire because she is a “gynaecologist without a scientific background”.

    Jamie Blackett, writing for the Telegraph said: “A further threat to national cohesion is Sturgeon’s insistence on giving Catherine Calderwood, Scotland’s Chief Medical Officer – a gynaecologist without a scientific background – parity with Sir Patrick Vallance and Dr Chris Whitty.

  133. Do you think the SNP would allow anyone from the right to be in that position when Nicola Sturgeon is in charge?

    I don’t know. I’ve no information on Calderwood’s politics.

  134. Seamus

    At the present time, there is a grossly inadequate supply of masks and other medical equipment in the United States and in Europe in the middle of a pandemic . I would hope that you agree that this is not a good thing.

    At this point in time, you’re giving us the usual Economics 101 Statement of why it makes economic sense to manufacture these products in low wage countries. When you are fully aware that manufacturing these things in distant and in some cases unfriendly countries is a major reason ( not the only one ) Why there are serious supply problems now.

    We all took economics 101, so there’s no need to repeat that stuff. Every freshman knows that.

    The important matter, now that our countries have hopefully woken up, Is medical security, which again is part of national security.

    Security of supply is more important than saving 25 cents labor costs per mask produced or whatever.

    Especially at a time when places like China, Germany and the United States have proven to be unreliable exporters of medical gear in times like these

  135. We bought our N95 masks from Slovakia.

    Not cheap, 80 Euros for ten masks.

    And apparently, my wife got a 50% discount because she went to school with him..

    Hmmmmm.

  136. And this is an unlikely situation. The problem is unprecedented demand, not inadequate supply. These masks are normally used in healthcare. Just not in the level needed now. The simple fact is that, unless the government is going to pay huge amounts of extra money (and everyone is happy with the resulting increase in taxation) to fund autarky, then the most reasonable thing to do is (in this crisis) is to shift domestic production to fill the demand, but in ordinary times just buy it from abroad.

  137. It is the responsibility of Any decent government to prepare for the unlikely situation, For the once a 100 year event

    Once in 100 years is not a rare thing

    And here, China, Germany, France, and the United States have chosen to be unreliable exporters of medical products when importing countries need those products the most

  138. Prepare sure. Completely restructure your entire society for it? Not so much. For every £1 wasted for the last 50 years preparing for the once in a 100 years event is a £1 not spent on improving things in the here and now. That would, if we are talking health care spending, cost more lives in the long run than current policy.

  139. Maybe at least, the U.K. will now cease sending “foreign aid” to China each and every year.

    Spend it on the NHS instead.

  140. Arranging for medical security is not completely re-structuring our society

    Lessons will be learned by Those who choose to learn them

    Lesson number one – Don’t trust any suppliers of medical equipment based in the United States, France, Germany, or China,

    If you are an importer, Your suppliers can and will cut you off based on the whim of an unfriendly government. That’s not even close to being a disputable point today

  141. How much would it cost to have sufficient PPE manufacturing in the UK to cover a health crisis? And how much would that divert away from other priorities? And how many lives will diverting that money away from those priorities cost?

  142. And it appears that no one has listened to what I have linked to from Dr. Osterholm

    He has And critical for decades not just of the stupid reliance on distant nations, But also on the use of just in time manufacturing and “ just in time “storage On the part of hospitals and wholesalers, a Model that has created it’s own problems when you want to quickly ramp up production

    We are now asking general motors to start manufacturing ventilators right now, a Product that they’ve never made before. But where are the parts that go into those ventilators supposed to be sourced from? Apparently, no one has thought of that.

  143. Phantom.

    France or Germany?

    But, but, but they are a part of the Brussels empire project, they simp,y would not cut out any other member of their stupid club of the other 25 odd satellite areas..

    Solidarity and all that..

    Italy wonders where Europe’s solidarity is as coronavirus strains show

    https://www.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-652c-11ea-b3f3-fe4680ea68b5

    If the Brussels empire builders come back from this crisis it will be a miracle.

  144. I would highly recommend listening to this interview with Dr. Osterholm

    In the last three minutes, he speaks about the dangers of supply lines for medical gear and pharmaceuticals

    He’s been saying this for quite a while. You wouldn’t trust China to manufacture Navy ships, why do we trust them to make pharmaceutical meds?

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/03/11/infectious_disease_medical_detective_michael_osterholm_coronavirus_is_going_to_unfold_for_months_to_come.html

    Any country, including the United States, that has restricted exports of medical products to partners and allies in the middle of a crisis, Should be dealt with harshly

  145. Phantom.

    Brussels came to the aid of Italy..

    In their hour of desperate need, Brussels fined them 8 million euros plus 80,000 euros a day interest.

    Because they broke some “rule” or something.

    The Italians will not forgive the Brussels emperors for this one.

    This time (again) The oafs at the Brussels commission have screwed up bigly.

  146. Seamus, on April 5th, 2020 at 3:54 PM Said:
    “You can not seize or view someones records in the HOPE of finding a crime that is one of the main tenants of the 4th Amendment.”

    They will not be seizing of viewing Trump’s records. Those records do not belong to Donald Trump. Which is why the attempts to view them did not serve papers against Trump, but against the Treasury Department and the IRS. They are the IRS records. And the law is clear. Congressional committees can review IRS records, and do not need probable cause to do so.

    Ah poor poor Seamus…. you are wrong.

    11.3.35.1.2
    Authority
    Treasury Regulations §§301.9000-1 through 301.9000-7 require IRS officers and employees, as well as contractors, to obtain prior approval before they may produce IRS records or information or testify in judicial or administrative proceedings in response to a demand (subpoena, notice of deposition, court order, etc.).
    Delegation Order 11-2 (see IRM 1.2.49.3) sets forth the IRS officials who may authorize testimony or disclosure of IRS records or information in response to certain requests and demands for such information.
    The scope of the authorization will be restricted in accordance with applicable disclosure laws (e.g., IRC §6103, IRC §6104, IRC §6105, IRC §6110, IRC §4424, and the Privacy Act).

    https://www.irs.gov/irm/part11/irm_11-003-035#idm140249849369680

    Legalize mumbo jumbo that boils down you have to have the individuals written permission or a warrant/probable cause, because the 4th Amendment does apply.

    Any IRS employee that is even caught looking at a persons IRS record without written permission or a warrant is fired and prosecuted.

    They records are in the possession of the IRS, but are still the Legal Property of the Individual/Corporation.

  147. You’re probably right now as respects Italy

    But this issue is much bigger than the EU.

    The UK in particular needs to have a deep think about its medical and food security. Getting stuff cheap is very ducky, but you need to know that your supplier is reliable, too …Especially in hard Times.

    Anyone can be a great supplier what times are rosy.

  148. This debate is another benefit of this panic.

    The outsourcing of all manufacturing to nations with cheap labor was a mistake. Financially it makes good sense. Strategically it does not and has now cost lives.

  149. Patrick is practicing law without a license again

    The cut and pasted regulation does not back up his legal pronouncements

  150. All manufacturing was not outsourced to foreign nations

    The US has never stopped being a huge manufacturing nation, Has never stopped being a huge exporter

  151. But this issue is much bigger than the EU.

    I agree, but the EU still appear to have the attitude, nothing is bigger than the EU project.

    Once again the EU commission have proven beyond any shadow of doubt, they are beyond reform, beyond reason, and beyond redemption.

  152. yeah ok skippy…… the US hasn’t lost it’s manufacturing base over the past 60yrs to cheap foreign labor it’s a fantasy I made up…..

  153. You just said that all manufacturing was outsourced to low-wage countries

    That’s never been true

  154. I wonder if the US government, like hopefully all other governments, are now thinking along the lines of “we should have spent more of their hard earned cash on finding ways of curing and healing them, rather than new and exciting ways of killing them”

    We are all being led by monsters.

  155. oh excuse me for using the word ALL….. or to put it as you would.

    shush…. Phantom

  156. shush…. Phantom

    Patrick.

    Stop telling someone to shush..there is only room for so much immense arrogance on ATW.

    Leave it to the usual suspect.

  157. But, but, but they are a part of the Brussels empire project, they simp,y would not cut out any other member of their stupid club of the other 25 odd satellite areas..

    Harri, the actions of Germany, dispicable as they were, completely contradicts the ‘federal Europe’ claim that you and others made here.

  158. Actually the only people here who have been consistently speaking of the disadvantages of offshoring for a long time have been ( gotta say it ) Allan and me.

    Seamus and Frank have been champions of offshoring production.

    Most everyone is against it now, but it’s a little late in the game to do the intellectual switcheroo.

    The leadership of the US Democratic and Republican parties were never against offshoring production and jobs in the eighties and nineties, the time when the horse left the barn.

    Trump gets credit here, he always saw a downside to this.

  159. my god it’s gonna snow……

    Trump gets credit here, he always saw a downside to this.

  160. Hey Phantom…… who is responsible for the manufacturing jobs being sent to those countries…. ?

    UNIONS !

  161. Actually the only people here who have been consistently speaking of the disadvantages of offshoring for a long time have been ( gotta say it ) Allan and me.

    Well I have too, but we have to recognise the advantages, and there are economic advantages. But it depends what is being offshored. We now see the folly of having China make so much medical equipment. It was always folly, but we’re just waking up to how much important stuff is in their hands.

    Trainers and t-shirts? That’s unimportant strategically, but it does make lower wage people who want trainers and t-shirts more wealthy if they can get them more cheaply.

  162. You’ve been very quiet about the issue of offshoring jobs until five minutes ago

    If you have finally seen the downside, welcome to the club

  163. My Last comment meant for Patrick

    what Pete just said makes sense

  164. China may be an uncertain supplier of medical equipment, but they are consistent supplier of viruses.

  165. Pat,
    on point with Nurses at New York’s Montefiore Medical Center protesting outside their hospital demanding more personal protective equipment such as masks and gloves, can you explain in plain language how your country is NOT a 3rd World shithole country, putting its troops ( nurses ) in harms way. Its a freaking disgrace .. who is reponsible ?

  166. Harri, the actions of Germany, dispicable as they were, completely contradicts the ‘federal Europe’ claim that you and others made here.

    Yes Paul

    It’s now in the open,

    The Brussels emperors really don’t have any clothes.

    Italy, like the U.K. have realised, they are irrelevant.

  167. Phantom, on April 5th, 2020 at 9:23 PM Said:
    China may be an uncertain supplier of medical equipment, but they are consistent supplier of viruses.

    Now on that, we can agree, and so should any other decent minded person.

  168. Nobody here AFAIK , including me, Has been specifically raising the issue of medical product and pharmaceutical security until very recently

    This entire existential issue has been an unknown to all of us here

    What else are we not thinking of?

  169. ah no sorry in my Union bashing I’ve mentioned multiple times.

    economically the offshoring makes perfectly good sense. This however is the price. We broke up very large portion of the Union base by offshoring so much so that the largest Union in the US is the Federal Employee Union. Which even FDR was against.

    The offshoring was a benefit in destroying the Unions.

    This however is the cost, now it will change back.

  170. Watch how many of these jobs as they comeback will come to right to work states.

  171. Phantom –

    Charles has mentioned pharmaceuticals. I read about the vast amounts of medicines which are now made in China a couple of years ago. Since then I’ve checked the country of origin for anything I get off the shelf, paracetamols and things like that. I simply have zero faith in Chinese quality control or moral standards.

  172. Economically off shoring does not make sense If you lose access to crucial products when you need them. It would be 100 times worse than Enron economics

    Pete

    Ok

    But I think that the discussion that Charles and I have had on Chinese made pharmaceuticals Was very recent, within the last six months easy. My doctor Has long had no Confidence in Chinese made generics, but that’s due to quality control reasons.

    Post Wuhan, We need to have an entirely different, rethink of the whole relationship.

  173. 20/20 hindsight Phantom. For decades it was THE economic plan for a very large portion of American Manufacturing.

    Why you are taking the position that this has not been happening for that exact reason goes against common sense and history. The 2 things you lack.

  174. I have been critical of this trend here over time.

    And in fairness so has Allan

    I have said that there are more important things in the world than cheap TV sets, And have been the subject of much contradiction from Seamus and Frank, And a whole Lot of silence from you

    As of five minutes ago You woke up, like rip van winkle

    Welcome to the club.

  175. Yes Paul

    It’s now in the open

    But it’s the exact opposite of the federal state that you and others here have been claiming here for years.

  176. It’s not 2020 hindsight if you’ve been saying it here for way more than 10 years

  177. Please provide a link from ten years ago where you addressed this issue in reference to the “supply chain”

    I’ll wait.

  178. Bite me

    Everybody here who is a long time participant recalls these talks

  179. ahh so your written worries over supply chain don’t exist……

    You’ve discussed and so have I but not in this context. I can admit that…. you can’t.

  180. How much extra tax (or in the absence of extra tax – what would you cut) to pay for the substantially increased costs of running the health service if you went full autarky?

  181. “Legalize mumbo jumbo that boils down you have to have the individuals written permission or a warrant/probable cause, because the 4th Amendment does apply.”

    Did you not read your own link? It really doesn’t say that. IRS officers and employees, as well as contractors, require prior approval before releasing those records in a subpoena. That approval does not come from the individual who’s records they refer to (ie if John Doe’s tax returns were subpoenaed they wouldn’t need to get John Doe’s permission). They must get the permission from IRS officials (set out in Delegation Order 11-2).

  182. Phantom,

    Actually the only people here who have been consistently speaking of the disadvantages of offshoring for a long time have been ( gotta say it ) Allan and me.

    I’ve also been against offshoring on the scale we’ve seen in the West.
    As I have repeatedly pointed out, I worked in an industry that was off during a lot of jobs. I know the disadvantages of losing the skills and manufacturing from your own country.

  183. Dave

    Correct

    Just about everybody else has been missing in action For the last 20 years.

    God bless their pointy little heads

  184. Seamus

    You are flailing

    No one has ever to my knowledge spoken in favor of autarky here

  185. You have. On this very thread. How else do you ensure domestic needs are met during a crisis?

  186. You’re being silly

    For most of the postwar period, Japan has Protected it’s domestic rice growing market

    That doesn’t mean that Japan never imported any food

    Come on you’re a smart guy admit that you’re wrong and will just call it a day

    The price of a product as expressed in money on the invoice is not the only value. That has always been my major point here, and you guys seem to keep struggling with it.

    Dollars Euros and pounds are good things but they are not the only good things

  187. I’m not wrong. The costs of your system would substantially increase the cost of healthcare in the UK. It would make the health service more expensive. And unless there was an increase in taxes to pay for it then the most likely result would be a reduction in healthcare provided. Which would cost lives.

    Your system costs more lives in the long run than the problems being caused now.

  188. It is also worth pointing out that Japanese rice costs Japanese consumers two and a half times what importing it from the United States would cost (never mind from poorer countries where it would be even cheaper).

    So imagine if day to day medical equipment was two and a half times more expensive every year.

  189. Seamus you’re striking out on all corners tonight…. and I thought you could read better than that.

    The IRS can’t divulge or share someones IRS records without their permission, or a probable cause warrant that specifies EXACTLY what they are looking for. It’s settled Law and it’s base is the 4th Amendment.

  190. “The IRS can’t divulge or share someones IRS records without their permission, or a probable cause warrant that specifies EXACTLY what they are looking for. It’s settled Law and it’s base is the 4th Amendment.”

    What settled law? Show me the law. Because the 1924 Revenue Act makes it clear that Congressional Committees can review tax returns.