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Not everyone in Minnesota is rioting

By Patrick Van Roy On May 29th, 2020

7 hours ago in St Paul

This is not a racial issue as everyone is trying to push. This is an education issue. The poor man was killed by that Cop. He kept his Knee on his neck for 7 minutes and 53 seconds. While the man could speak he told them he couldnt breath. You can restrain a suspect by placing your knee on his chest, back or shoulders. If it slips onto his neck it can not stay there for longer than 45 seconds. That is written rule for that restraint.

Now lets look at a few things. This City is Democrat Controlled and has been for almost 100yrs. The Police Chief is Black, the force and the city are your typical large urban American city. Which means there is a large section of the population that are uneducated, unemployed on drugs and violent. That population here is both Black and White. If you look at the rioters you will see all races.

What you are seeing is the lost of our society. Not a race war or riot. The gentleman that was killed had a record as long as your arm and was being arrested for a crime. The cop needs to be prosecuted but this was no angel pulled from a street corner by a pack of racist cops. This was a criminal who died while being arrested.

The excessive force was thankfully caught on tape, because this cop has been brought up on charges for excessive force multiple times. Amy Klobuchar declined to Prosecute him when she was the cities prosecutor, gues she won’t be Joes VP…

However those rioting there and now in other cities aren’t rioting for any injustice. They are rioting because they can. They can use this mans death as an excuse to rob and burn. Not to seek Justice but to profit off the death. They have been educated that they can do it and get away with it.

The Gentleman in the clip above are the educated, family oriented Law Abiding Citizens. Guarding their livelihood from the miscreants…… It’s not racial to them.

148 Responses to “Not everyone in Minnesota is rioting”

  1. //The Police Chief is Black, the force and the city are your typical large urban American city. Which means there is a large section of the population that are uneducated, unemployed on drugs and violent. That population here is both Black and White. If you look at the rioters you will see all races.//

    Well said, and good post.

    However, there are many questions to be answered. Why is there still so much anger in black communities after all the decades of improvements and development? Why are blacks still disproportionately involved in crime? Above all, if the cops had turned up to arrest a white suspect and the man had behaved exactly the same as this victim, would they have reacted so brutally?

    There’s something disgusting about the way cops are so methodical while being brutal, the way this cop seems to hold his hands in his pockets while putting his weight on his victim’s neck.

    I once saw a black man being arrested in San Francisco. He had been caught shoplifting and was not violent. But the cops had him cuffed and thrown over a car hood. One cop was pushing the man’s head down onto the metal, while the other was searching him. Packets of frozen meat and other food were falling from his clothes. The man was crying and saying the food was for his children who hadn’t eaten.

    I had never seen cops behave with such studied brutality. Cops in Ireland at the time would often lose their temper and lash out, but this was something different. I was still a soft young student then and was overcome by pity for the man. The supermarket guy was standing there and I offered to pay for the stolen goods, but he said it was too late for that now.

  2. This is a reasoanle post with a lot of good arguments to it. However to say this is not at all a racial thing is where I disagree. To claim that all the anger and rioting is just opportunistic is as absurd as the opposite claim that all the rioting and looting is purely in defence of the killed man. The revelation of the numerous brutality claims against the kneeling cop which went nowhere points to a real frustration that many people (not all black) who will have experienced unjustified police brutality or seen it happen to those they know, and many protesters feel that once things quieten down and the media move away from the story, ways will be found, as often happens, to drop any charges against this cop and no real justice to be delivered.

  3. I think the image of the killing does create an interesting touchpoint in American racial politics. Simply put if the picture of Colin Kaepernick kneeling causes you more anger than the picture of Derek Chauvin kneeling then there is something deeply, deeply wrong with you.

  4. There were prior complaints against the officer in question but I don’t know if the number was out of the ordinary (cops get these complaints often whether or not there is merit to them). But even the perception that Klobuchar didnt prosecute him has effectively knocked her out of contention.

  5. I suspect that even African American legal gun owners protecting their businesses would note the racial component in this story. Unfortunately the authorities have moved swiftly in firing the officers and launching the investigation and still there is unlawful rioting.

  6. Which means there is a large section of the population that are uneducated, unemployed on drugs and violent

    Yes but enough about Trump voters, what about the situation in Minnesota?

    Seriously though, this is a good post which raises many interesting points as outlined by Noel above. I’ve often spoken about the brutality of Spanish cops, the legacy of a 35 year (real) fascist authoritarian police state but I don’t think that even they would be so gratuitously violent as the coward policeman in this video I posted last night:

    https://twitter.com/JoLeonard___x/status/1265924582860562432?fbclid=IwAR3g2jei5xAA6vLJnVrp1L62V0fbOngLLnCD09ZGfjs_I6lccwYp0ls_Za8

  7. Paul

    I notice the Spanish wording on the wall in that video. Is the location of this incident in the United States ?

  8. It’s definitely the states. I suspect it’s somewhere in L.A.

  9. //the revelation of the numerous brutality claims against the kneeling cop which went nowhere points to a real frustration that many people (not all black) who will have experienced unjustified police brutality or seen it happen to those they know//

    There have been far too many such incidents recently. But US cops aren’t Nazis, or at least the vast majority aren’t. Part of the question then is why cops so easily overreact when they’re dealing with blacks. I don’t believe it can all be explained by “racism” in the police force. I presume very many American cops are simply exasperated by the never-ending crime in black neighbourhoods, and that even the most fair-minded cop could in time be drawn into mental profiling and assumptions about blacks and crime and react accordingly. Cops can’t be expected to act like sociologists.

    So the question about the reasons for crime and the lack of opportunity for blacks remains and everyone should have an open and clear mind when considering it.

  10. https://psmag.com/magazine/the-hidden-world-of-police-on-steroids

    I have long thought that the use of steroids by many police is a part of police erratic behavior, the use of excessive force

  11. /It’s definitely the states. I suspect it’s somewhere in L.A.//

    The Church of God of the Prophecy, no less. It has its headquarters in Tennessee.

    Boy, that’s one cop that deserves to be in jail anyway. The suspect wasn’t resisting and was under control when the cop starts laying into him. Did the cop actually lose his gun in his rage?
    I think it was the man saying “I hope you aren’t going to get fired” that set him off.

  12. The city of Minneapolis and the Minneapolis police leadership were also in the wrong for allowing that police station to be burned

    No protests In this inflamed time should’ve been allowed within striking distance of the Station. They should have been kept at least two blocks away.

    Such a thing would never have been permitted here When Giuliani was mayor, when Brandon was police commissioner.

    An awful lot of those protesters were caught on film, Including those with Molotov cocktails itLet’s see how many of them are arrested. If any are. This Minneapolis mayor might give them a medal.

  13. Bratton

  14. Wow!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9zbQr81Kiw

  15. From what I’ve read Minneapolis has approx 800 police officers. I’m not sure they had the capability to stop the fire once it started and to protect other areas. They were likely overwhelmed by events, hence the need for National Guard Assistance.

  16. How incredibly stupid do you have to be to arrest a black reporter on live television while he is reporting on racially charged violence…? In a city in flames because the white cop who killed an unarmed black man hasn’t been arrested.

    Astonishing.

  17. And awful lot of those so-called protesters aren’t black. And a number of them are girl rioters, Not the most common sight

    And I will certainly imagine that many of them are not from the “ community”

    Throwing a Molotov cocktail Is hardly a spontaneous act. The average member of any community would never think of such a thing in 1 million years

    —-

    -Before – He was elected mayor, Giuliani said that no rioting would be permitted at any time. His predecessor had allowed the Crown Heights riots To fester for days

    That set the tone.

    That tone was not in evidence In Minneapolis

  18. Don’t forget Giuliani helped incite an off duty riot by police officers who stormed City Hall.

  19. A lot of rioting is also by planned anarchists. It should always be met with resolution no matter what the underling reason/excuse may be.

  20. The average member of any community would never think of such a thing in 1 million years

    You obviously weren’t in West Belfast during the hunger strikes.

  21. Rioters should be met with firehoses and tear gas.

    There is no economy in any city right now. The businesses that were robbed and burned probably will never reopen. The peoples who cars they burned won’t be able to afford to replace them.

  22. There is plenty of ” economy ” in plenty of cities.

    The chain stores that were burned will reopen. That’s part of the problem.

  23. The whole thing is an escalating insanity.

  24. Did the rioters burn down the welfare office?

  25. Phantom, on May 29th, 2020 at 1:10 PM Said:
    And awful lot of those so-called protesters aren’t black.

    Antifa.

  26. There is is.

    I was waiting to see when the bogeyman would raise his head.

  27. * There it is

  28. Yeah, Of course..

    Those white dudes with face mask coverings, black back packs attacking police and causing anarchy are actually far-right facist thugs.

  29. Phantom how many businesses do you think aren’t going to reopen due to the shutdown ? There is no economy right now in any city because the majority of the country is shut down not because Minneapolis is Minneapolis or a city, but because other than those chain stores the mom and pops are already going to struggle to comeback. Add riot damage…. forget it…

  30. Paul

    There is such a thing as antifa, and they are highly likely to be involved here. You seem to think that there is no such thing as antifa, or something.

    “You cannot be disciplined in great things and undisciplined in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valour of other men. Have you seen a few policemen handle a crowd?” General Patton

    Where are the disciplined, focused policemen here? The city of Minneapolis absolutely allowed that building to be burned down. The mayor and police commissioner should be charged with arson

  31. //You obviously weren’t in West Belfast during the hunger strikes.//

    Interesting comparision, Paul. It tells of some universals and some big differences.
    I was just thinking of that in the light of my weekend post on the visit to Belfast and Seimi, so I’ll expand on it there.

  32. The shutdown is only a part of the problem.

    And things are reopening, even in NYC they are slowly reopening, with more reopening expected in June.

    But many employers won’t want all the workers to be in buildings even if the government were to allow for that. The virus is the problem more than the government.

    The economy is wounded in my area, but it is not dead. Exaggeration does not help. Some restaurants ( takeout ) , hardware stores, all supermarkets, are doing good business even now.

  33. I’m perfectly aware that ‘antifa’ exist as an abstract concept and loose collection of individuals seemingly largely inter conncted by the internet Phantom. You seem to think of them as some kind of organic group which are responsible for any anti government unrest or violence in the US. I knew you comment above was a dog whistle and it didn’t take long for the dog to come running.

    Those white dudes with face mask coverings, black back packs attacking police and causing anarchy are actually far-right facist thugs.

    Are they? How do you know?

    I’m looking forward to your post Noel…..finally.

  34. Destruction is always bad and it’ll probably soon lead to more deaths, which is worse.

    But it shouldn’t be allowed to detract from the main topic: why are there so many cases of cops killing blacks in questionable circumstances in US cities? Lack of integration in black communities, bad policing, too many blacks in crime or what?

    Why don’t they recruit more black policemen, give them good training and then let them patrol their own communities?

    It’s pointless at this stage pretending there’s no problem and that official institutions are colour-blind. It would seem nobody is blind to skin colour and you can take sensible measures based on that simple fact.

  35. It is not an abstract anything.

    And I never said that they were responsible for ” any ” anti government unrest.

    Your rapid response to any mention of antifa is highly similar to harri’s rapid response to any criticism of Trump. ( ” TDS ” )

    If you support them in some way, why not just come out and say it? No need to pretend that they don’t really exist.

  36. Noel

    A lot of city cops come from the suburbs, where they don’t know anything about the city.

    That’s a problem.

  37. ok so Phantom is in phantasy mode……

    We will comeback to that after the lockdown is fully lifted for 3mths and the death toll of businesses can be tallied.

    Everything is just fine nothing to see…. move along

  38. Most cities require members of the Police Force to LIVE in the city they work for. Philly does and so do the majority of others.

  39. Patrick

    Your world weary moan shows you don’t understand what was said to you.

    You’re not trying to understand the situation.

    Even if all 50 state and all local lockdowns were stopped today, the situation would still be hugely problematic. A lot of people would still stay home, many would not fly or go to restaurants. Etc.

    The lockdown is not the fundamental problem. The virus is. Or, as you would call it, ” the flu “

  40. My ‘rapid response’ to ‘antifa’ was a reaction to your very obvious dog whistle to invoke the bogeyman.

    Let me be very clear here, I don’t know if ‘antifa’ are involved in Minnesota but I don’t see why white guys wouldn’t be out protesting / rioting against a cop killing a black guy and not being charged with it. The ‘antifa’ bogeyman is similar to the faceless ‘elite’ ‘globalists’ and those other non definitive easily transferable labels so useful to brand anything you wish. I’ve also seen rightwing blogs imply that ‘antifa’ are the cause of violence in Minnesota rather than anger at the cops getting a blackman and seemingly getting away with it – a useful non definitive patsy to balme.

    Me support ‘antifa?’ I’m giggling at your buffoonery here.

  41. I don’t see why white guys wouldn’t be out protesting / rioting

    Yes, I’m sure that you don’t.

  42. I don’t see why white guys wouldn’t be out protesting / rioting

    Yes, I’m sure that you don’t.

  43. Conversations about what comes next are already happening. The organisation I work for are already evaluating whether it is sensible and prudent to continue paying thousands of pounds a month for office space in a number of different cities, with all the associated rent, rates, utilities and other over heads, when the organisation has shown how effictively it can function working from home, especially at time when revenue streams are likely to be lower.

    I would be beyond shocked if we are the only organisation looking at that. Why have a major office in London, or Manhatten, that costs a small fortune to have, when you can work from home and simply rent office space for a day or two when you need to hold a centralised in person meeting? The result will be a change in the way people live and work. There will be a depopulation of city centre businesses (first from office based businesses deciding they don’t need to be in the office anymore – followed by the decline of the other businesses that service them – shops, cafes, coffee shops etc…). When you combine that with the redundency and unemployment wave that is about to hit (and already has hit in some places) then you will get a huge drop in normal consumer demand.

    And if you ended the lockdown tomorrow in every country on the planet then everything I said above would still be true. The major impact of coronavirus, beyond the deaths, is the acceleration of already growing trends in how we live and work. People are going to be working from home more often. People are going to be using less cash. Air travel, which was already in difficulty, will never be the same again. This is all being said with no judgement of whether or not these things are good or bad. It doesn’t matter if they are good or bad. They are happening whether we find them to be positive changes or negative ones. And any worker, business, city or country that cannot or will not adapt to that will decline as a result.

  44. So, are you suggesting that white guys would agree with the killing in Minneapolis and / or they wouldn’t be out protesting / rioting at such apparent injustice?

    Is claiming acceptance of such injustice along racial lines not a bit racist?

  45. It’s pointless at this stage pretending there’s no problem and that official institutions are colour-blind. It would seem nobody is blind to skin colour and you can take sensible measures based on that simple fact

    Indeed Noel:

    CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez and his camera crew were arrested on air just after 5 a.m. Friday as the team reported on the Minneapolis protests […]

    CNN political reporter Abby Phillip noted that Josh Campbell, her other colleague on the scene, who is white, was not arrested

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/05/29/omar-jimenez-cnn-minneapolis/

    It could of course just be a coincidence.

  46. The cop and the man he murdered worked together for 17 years as security detail for a restaurant.

  47. Phantom – Minneapolis may not have had the manpower to prevent that precinct fire and keep control of the City to the extent they were able. You should wait before you start condemning them. The most prudent thing may very well have been to abandon it at the time.

  48. Seamus

    We are having very similar conversations

    This will have major implications for world cities like London, New York, even Dublin

    We’ve had a prolonged stress test and it has been shown that companies can work well if nearly everyone is working from home

    I think that very many, especially young adults, want to live in cities, a fact unlikely to change, but not everyone does.

    I have a friend who worked in NYC for years but who is as of three years ago has been an employee of that same NYC office while living in rural southern Indiana. Now, lots of people can live in such places, and their boss will be fine with it.

  49. I think some people, such as you say young adults, will still want to live in cities and this may accelerate that as well as city centre property will likely become cheaper as a result, enabling a larger group of younger people to live in cities.

  50. Phantom, on May 29th, 2020 at 2:30 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Patrick

    Your world weary moan shows you don’t understand what was said to you.

    You’re not trying to understand the situation.

    Even if all 50 state and all local lockdowns were stopped today, the situation would still be hugely problematic. A lot of people would still stay home, many would not fly or go to restaurants. Etc.

    The lockdown is not the fundamental problem. The virus is. Or, as you would call it, ” the flu “

    Phantom I totally disagree, but I don’t want to derail this thread.

    The virus is not the problem, now or going forward. I will gladly get into why, but I feel the discussion would be better served on a different thread.

  51. I loved the city, I miss the city, there is something very special about living in one.

    They just aren’t places to raise children.

  52. All the references to ” murder ” are wrong.

    All the references to ” murder ” by elected officials and even police chiefs ( which has happened ) are very wrong.

    There is evidence of extremely bad action, of intentional violation of department rules in a case involving a nonviolent suspect, of depraved indifference to the man’s safety. etc. etc. There is no evidence that they intentionally tried to kill him or even to harm him.

    This will be seen as an excuse for the cops by those who refuse to think it through. I’m not excusing anything.

  53. PVR

    Manhattan itself can be a perfectly wonderful place to raise children.

    There are problems in the city, and there are problems in the suburbs too.

    I’ve seen many more kids from the suburbs use dangerous drugs than those from the city, for starters. Us city kids in my circle were afraid of hard drugs and never used them, but a lot of suburban kids in college did use them.

  54. “There is no evidence that they intentionally tried to kill him or even to harm him.”

    If it is true however that Chauvin and Floyd knew each other that does make me question that.

  55. There is no evidence that they intentionally tried to kill him or even to harm him

    I think that any reasonable person would conclude that the physical actions which occurred for the sustained period of time would result in harm.

    I wasn’t aware that they were known to each other. That adds an interesting element to the equation.

  56. Phantom, on May 29th, 2020 at 3:27 PM Said: Edit Comment
    PVR

    Manhattan itself can be a perfectly wonderful place to raise children.

    There are problems in the city, and there are problems in the suburbs too.

    I’ve seen many more kids from the suburbs use dangerous drugs than those from the city, for starters. Us city kids in my circle were afraid of hard drugs and never used them, but a lot of suburban kids in college did use them.

    True

  57. The kids from the suburbs could afford the hard drugs, we couldn’t afford it even if we wanted to use them!

    But we could afford 24 can cases of beer from time to time, consumed in the local park or whatever. that we could do from time to time.

  58. But we could afford 24 can cases of beer from time to time, consumed in the local park or whatever

    Some things transcend nationality and continents.

  59. 🙂

  60. I have a question……

    How are all these rioters violating the social distancing and lockdown orders?

    They’re all going to die from the Chicom Flu……. and they’re going to contaminate and kill everyone they have contact with for the next 14 days……

    or is the virus supporting the riots and protesting by not contaminating the rioters?

  61. A major demand of the protesters is charging the four cops with murder. The DA says it is being investigated. I think there would be less rioting if the four cops were taken into custody. There must be some way to do that while the investigation takes place. Out of sight, out of mind.

    After watching the video it is understandable the protesters want the four cops charged with murder. There may be issues the investigation will pursue, but in the meantime it would have been best to take the four cops into custody so they are out of sight.

    There are obviously major problems with the Minneapolis police force which need to be addressed. But first the violence has to completely stop.

  62. The DA should not change his/her action in order to appease criminal rioters.

    It would be wildly unprofessional to even consider any such thing.

  63. I’d need to check but I’m not sure someone can be arrested pending investigation. I think as soon as an arrest is made the authorities have a limited time to charge the suspect or they must release them.

  64. They tried that in Baltimore remember that crazy DA……

    It caused more problems not less NYr

  65. If Minnesota arrests the cops that killed George Floyd, will they have no bail, and be released due to Covid?

  66. To be even more clear

    The DA should not change his/her action in order to appease any politician, any protester, any influence group, or any criminal rioters.

  67. Why couldn’t the four cops be arrested for something minor like jaywalking then when the investigation is complete possibly for murder? I believe that would address the sense of grievance many of the protesters have, probably not all of the protesters but a significant number. What problems would that cause?

  68. Why don’t we hold Mohammed on Jay Walking while we investigate this act of terror…..

    You would support that NYr ?

    it’s exactly what you are calling for.

  69. Phantom

    “The DA should not change his/her action in order to appease any politician, any protester, any influence group, or any criminal rioters.” Why not? The greater good is stopping the violent protests which would probably save lives. When the DA’s investigation is completed in several weeks, the charges can be made or amended.

  70. I can’t help you there.

    Amazing…

  71. PVR

    “Why don’t we hold Mohammed on Jay Walking while we investigate this act of terror…..” Who is Mohammed? Are there violent protests taking place because of his alleged crime?

  72. The white world is in freefall, and the arrival of the 3rd-world will make a very bad situation even worse. Here’s how bad things are:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876285910002500

    – An estimated 43% of US children (32 million) currently have at least 1 of 20 chronic health conditions assessed, increasing to 54.1% when overweight, obesity, or being at risk for developmental delays are included; 19.2% (14.2 million) have conditions resulting in a special health care need, a 1.6 point increase since 2003. –

    Those vaccines are making such a difference 🙁

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2050312120925344

    OR – odds ratio

    – Vaccination before 1 year of age was associated with increased odds of developmental delays (OR = 2.18, 95% CI 1.47–3.24), asthma (OR = 4.49, 95% CI 2.04–9.88) and ear infections (OR = 2.13, 95% CI 1.63–2.78). In a quartile analysis, subjects were grouped by number of vaccine doses received in the first year of life. Higher odds ratios were observed in Quartiles 3 and 4 (where more vaccine doses were received) for all four health conditions considered, as compared to Quartile 1.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938757/

    – Odds ratios are used to compare the relative odds of the occurrence of the outcome of interest (e.g. disease or disorder), given exposure to the variable of interest (e.g. health characteristic, aspect of medical history). The odds ratio can also be used to determine whether a particular exposure is a risk factor for a particular outcome, and to compare the magnitude of various risk factors for that outcome.

    OR=1 Exposure does not affect odds of outcome

    OR>1 Exposure associated with higher odds of outcome

    OR<1 Exposure associated with lower odds of outcome

  73. Couldn’t at the very least the main cop involved be held immediately on a charge of excess violence with further investigation then taking place to decide whether the charge should be left at that or upgraded to manslaughter or murder. At the very least there is immediate evidence to justify the claim that his behaviour was criminal to some extent.

  74. NYr……..

    Laws are applied equally. You can’t hold the cops on another charge just like you couldn’t hold a terrorist, a murderer, a thief, or mugger under those type of circumstances.

    it just doesn’t work that way. It’s a recipe for abuse under color of Law……

  75. Oh for pities sake Allan – at least leave your “the virus is fake” postings on the appropriate threads.

  76. Colm, on May 29th, 2020 at 5:11 PM Said:
    Couldn’t at the very least the main cop involved be held immediately on a charge of excess violence with further investigation then taking place to decide whether the charge should be left at that or upgraded to manslaughter or murder. At the very least there is immediate evidence to justify the claim that his behaviour was criminal to some extent.

    They definitely need to arrest the cop, and pretty soon, before the protesters run out of shops to burn, and the looters run out of 55” flatscreen TV’s to steal in George Floyd’s memory.

  77. PVR

    “Laws are applied equally.” We are driving at the same speed. I get a ticket and you do not.

    What I propose could be done. This is a violent situation which should be defused. Law enforcement can have flexibility without acting illegally.

  78. We don’t arrest people to satisfy mobs.

    I think the primary officer’s actions were depraved enough to warrant a murder charge under Minnesota law. The prosecutors are taking necessary time not to delay justice, but to insure it.

  79. He has been taken into custody now I understand.

  80. and unless he can’t make bail he’ll be out on the street after he is charged and until his trial.

  81. Which sounds fair.

    But he’d better get police protection himself.

  82. I hear he has been charged with third degree murder. Which I guess is your equivalent of our manslaughter charge ?

  83. and hiding from the mob would be advised……

  84. manslaughter even at it’s harshest is a lesser charge than any level of Murder Charge.

    3rd degree is the least, but still harsher than Manslaughter.

  85. It is about time he was charged. This should have happened yesterday.

    It will be important to see what the reaction is, especially from Floyd’s family.

  86. I won’t be surprised if the bums gather outside the officer’s home.

    Again, something that would be off the charts inflammatory, and which should be illegal.

  87. As long as they gather outside his home peacefully even if carrying their guns I’m sure Patrick would have no issue with that.

  88. Yes, even if it terrorizes the neighbors and their children as well

    The holy founding fathers wanted it that way.

  89. I see that’s Trump’s away again on yet another distraction.

  90. as long as they don’t step over the property line I have no problem at all with it….

    They step over the property line you drop them on the spot……

  91. Rules gentleman Rules

  92. They step over the property line you drop them on the spot……

    Who’s gonna drop them? Ex-Officer Chauvin? The guy who’s just been charged with murder and manslaughter? Surely, any guns he might possess would by now have been removed from his property? Or is it normal in the States to release a murder suspect, one with extensive (ie police officer standard, at least) firearms training, and leave him in possession of guns? Wouldn’t he be on some form of suicide watch as well?

  93. Surely, any guns he might possess would by now have been removed from his property?

    Why ?

    The answer to both questions is No…..

  94. So it’s not policy in the States to remove firearms from the possession of a suspect in a murder??

  95. If you’re talking about shooting someone dead for trespassing I’d be surprised that the rules of tresspass would justify it.

  96. nope….. if they are ruled guilty of a Felony or found to be mentally incompetent then the firearms must be removed from the home even if they belong to other family members or residents of the home.

    Until he has been found guilty or incompetent in court NO you can not take the weapons.

  97. Paul McMahon, on May 29th, 2020 at 8:34 PM Said: Edit Comment
    If you’re talking about shooting someone dead for trespassing I’d be surprised that the rules of tresspass would justify it.

    They do in Pennsylvania and a majority of states.

  98. White guy in full gear smashing store windows, confronted by black demonstrator for doing it

    Agent provacateur or Antifa. There are many comments saying that it is an agent provacateur, some say that they recognize him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC9-ygP87CQ

  99. If you’re telling me that tresspassing on property, as opoposed to home invasions etc, is a justified self defence warranting a killing I’m astounded.

  100. depends on the state.

    Trespassers will be shot is a real thing here.

    Now will you not face a hell of a court case….. of course you will.

    The big thing in Pennsylvania was making booby traps Illegal.

    People used to rig their mountain homes with shotguns rigged on the doors. It took many many lawsuits to get the practice made into a crime.

  101. There are many comments saying that it is an agent provocateur

    Are there any saying he’s ‘Antifa?’

    Pete Moore once claimed that the EDL wore masks to hide their identity as half them were undercover cops / agent provocateurs.

  102. Trespassers will be shot is a real thing here

    I find it impossible to believe that you can shoot someone for walking on your lawan Pat.

  103. There are multiple ( unverified ) youtube comments that he appears to be a cop, including a comment that said that he ran to a nearby well guarded police station

  104. I know. I meant that I skimmed over the comments and the only suggestion that he was the bogeyman A word came from here.

  105. Paul

    You seem to want to fight on this every single time.

    There is such a thing as Antifa, they engage in political violence against persons and property throughout the US and beyond, violence that has been openly endorsed by Democratic Congressman Ellison from Minnesota.

    Apart from the video, nothing is remotely clear, including the comments that he might be a cop.

    You’re like Allan with the holocaust denial, you and your antifa.

  106. believe what you want Paul……

    The only reason that boobytraps were made illegal was because no one was present at the property.

    In Pa and many states you can shoot trespassers. In every state if they breach your home you can.

  107. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IKWEi9bRYI

    Officer Derik Chauvin in custody, charged with 3rd-degree murder & manslaughter

  108. Patrick

    In Pa and many states you can shoot trespassers. In every state if they breach your home you can.

    Not always the case at all.

  109. https://abcnews.go.com/US/homeowner-arrested-fatally-shooting-intruder-found-shower-police/story?id=46536513

    — — A Washington state homeowner was arrested on murder charges Saturday after he fatally shot a man he found taking a shower in his home, according to police.

    The homeowner shot Nathaniel Joseph Rosa, 31, multiple times after, he said, he noticed signs of forced entry at his home in Mason County, Washington, the county sheriff’s office said Saturday.

    Why do you say things that you know are untrue?

    I showed you another case from Montana where a homeowner went to jail for a very long time after shooting a college student who entered his home ( garage )

    You don’t have an unlimited right to shoot people in this country. You never should shoot anyone unless your life is in danger.

  110. You seem to want to fight on this every single time

    Has anyone but you suggested the bogeyman A word?

    There is such a thing as Antifa

    Yes,

    I’m perfectly aware that ‘antifa’ exist as an abstract concept and loose collection of individuals seemingly largely inter conncted by the internet Phantom. You seem to think of them as some kind of organic group which are responsible for any anti government unrest or violence in the US

    Who are their leaders? Do they have a manifesto of articulation of their aims? How do you join? Are they an international organisation? Are they the same organisation in Europe as they are in the US? Do they have a command structure? How are they organised? etc

    You seem to be the authority on what the bogeymen are, let’s have it.

  111. They are a different sort of group, based on political violence against persons and property for their cause, a cause that includes denying platforms to those whose views they don’t fancy.

    You can play stupid all decade long, but all the others here have a pretty good idea what this group is.

  112. To be fair the man who shot the guy taking the shower in his bathroom had a legitimate reason to do so.

    “Officer, I only fired my gun when I saw his weapon pointing at me ” 🙂

  113. So tell us, who are what are they?, (apart from a rag tag group who occasionally cause political trouble), who are their leaders?, what are their objectives? Are they all white?

    Why not answer the questions above?

    Or maybe it’s easier just to bandy the bogeyman A word about for any manconented upstart who engages in vandalism and political violence?

  114. Poor Allan Paul

    https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/homeowner-arrested-after-fatally-shooting-man-who-allegedly-broke-into-shed-dallas-police-say/287-e2de3abb-2f5d-4faf-8885-6fb5002b27f3

    Unless your life is in danger, you should not kill burglars or trespassers. It’s morally wrong and you could go to jail. Some learn this the hard way.

  115. Phantom you will have legal problems, but the Laws state you can shoot trespassers.

    Whenever you shoot anyone even in a cut and dry self defense you will get arrested.

    Whether or not they convict you of anything is another story.

    In the story you link to the guy left the one house got his gun came back and shot the guy….. there’s a lot more to the story than trespassing.

    Now the story was from Washington State and the guy was charged with 2nd degree. It does not say he was convicted, but leaving to go yo one house to get a gun and returning to another house and then shooting someone is not shooting a trespasser… there is premeditation in leaving to get a gun. He could have left and got the cops.

    Why do you respond with shit that’s not got anything to do with the point you are trying to make ?

    Are you that brain dead? “Oh I googled homeowner arrested for shooting trespasser…. see see he’s wrong….” you really are not that bright sometimes…..

    It’s not clear how long the victim had been inside the property, but police said the homeowner had enough time to call for help before firing shots.

    “Certainly he had an opportunity to call law enforcement at that time,” Adams said. “And we’ve contacted our local prosecutor, explained the circumstances to him, and he agrees that second-degree murder was an appropriate charge in this case.”

    lmao…… try again skippy

  116. It’s you who’s propagating the (((Joooos))) bogeyman A myth that a rag tag bunch of n’er do wells are going to bring down society.

    Give yer head a shake for Jesus’ sake.

  117. The Laws state you can shoot trespassers

    I’d be very surprised if you could shoot some guy for stepping on your lawn and get away with it.

  118. Paul – that is because you can’t shoot someone for merely stepping on your lawn. There are laws in which if you felt you were in danger of great bodily harm you could act in self defense but there is a reasonableness standard to that defense.

  119. Police release name of alleged trespasser fatally shot by …
    https://www.wlky.com/article/man-dead-after-report
    Feb 21, 2020 · Police confirm that the homeowner shot the trespasser and killed him. The man who died has been identified as Kyle Story, 27, of Louisville. Investigators do not expect any charges to be filed.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/homeowner-shoots-dead-two-teens-allegedly-trespassing-his-property-ohio-n1047686

    Two 17-year-olds were fatally shot by a man in Dayton, Ohio, on Wednesday after they allegedly trespassed on his property, authorities said.

    The man called 911 at about 9:30 p.m. to report that he had shot two people who were in or near his garage, according to the Dayton Police Department. The unidentified resident of the home said he saw a light from that area of the property and encountered three people inside his car in the garage.

    He then fired a .38 caliber revolver, which killed two of the three people. The Montgomery County Coroner’s Office identified them as teenagers Devin Henderson and Javier Harrison.

    The third person in the car was arrested on a breaking and entering charge.

    The man who shot the teens was taken into custody for questioning, and then released. He was not immediately charged with any crime.

    Police said Thursday that they were consulting with prosecutors, as recent changes to Ohio law places the burden of proof for cases of self-defense on the state.

    “It will take time for us to comb through the evidence and statements in order to determine if what transpired was a criminal act or an act of self-defense,” Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl said. “We ask for patience on behalf of the public as our detectives do their due diligence in investigating this case.”

    I can post 100s of these……

  120. I know of those types of incidents

    But even in Montana there can be very harsh penalties for shooting an intruder – and yes this guy was an intruder – who is no threat to you.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/02/12/385774450/montana-man-sentenced-to-70-years-for-shooting-unarmed-intruder

  121. There are laws in which if you felt you were in danger of great bodily harm you could act in self defense but there is a reasonableness standard to that defense.

    I absolutely agree Mahons. I was just wondering aloud about Pat’s ‘don’t step over the property line’ comment above and thought it a very flimsy defence for shooting someone.

  122. You can’t shoot someone in Texas for merely trespassing. You would go to jail for that.

  123. You should not physically assault someone who is no threat to you or to another person.

    These cases are not prosecuted nearly as often as they should, but prosecutions do happen that involve shootings and other cases

    https://pix11.com/2019/09/20/would-be-robber-killed-by-homeowner-during-attempted-break-in-in-the-bronx-police

  124. Nevada man not guilty in deadly … – New York Daily News
    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nev-man
    May 30, 2015 · RENO, Nev. — A Nevada man who was accused of murder after confronting two unarmed trespassers with a deadly barrage of gunfire at a vacant duplex he owns was found not guilty Friday

    jere is a great case for you to chew on….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori

  125. There would be many cases like that. Many injustices, too.

    I’m not opposed to the justified use of force.

    Shooting unarmed trespassers who are not a threat is not justified.

    Those who shoot people without justification, even where it’s legal, are part of the problem.

  126. True you never just want to shoot anyone, but people getting shot for tresspassing even just on peoples property happens more often than you think and the homeowner is usually not charged or if charged not convicted.

    My advice is you don’t shoot unless you are threatened and they have actually entered your property.

  127. I know of two people ( one in upstate NY, one in NC ) who had guns pulled on them by terrified assholes who thought that these persons were trespassers on adjoining properties. They were not.

    The guy in NC was a native of NJ who had taken days off from work to do relief work in the aftermath of hurricane floods. He could have been killed.

  128. If you have black skin you are much more likely to get killed by the cops, in any situation. End of.

    But this has been a gift for Trump. He knows his base will respond to his race-baiting, blacks looting white business premises being repelled by white national guards. It’s heaven-sent. But watch out for over-reach, as in when he starts to excuse the white cops who killed the black guy. Because we all know that he wants to.

  129. Peter

    FATAL POLICE SHOOTINGS

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

    Please press the tab that says…… RACE

    WHITE……… 370

    BLACK……… 235

  130. This is NOT RACIAL and you have no idea what you are talking about……

    It’s IDIOCY like this………

    If you have black skin you are much more likely to get killed by the cops, in any situation. End of.

    Spouted out of the mouths of fools that these anarchist scum exploit. It is the gentrified fools like you whose kids are out there burning and robbing……

    Over half these animals rioting in every city are WHITE…….

    White people, black people, yellow people ALL get killed by cops and 99.9% of the time the killing is JUSTIFIED…..

    AND EVERY YEAR it’s more whites than any other race that wind up being stupid and get killed.

    These riots have nothing to do with race. They are now organized riots being fueled and organized by small groups of people. These Mayors anf Governors are allowing mayhem to take place on their streets.

    When you have “Civil Disobedience” situations the way you respond is the first person that throws a rock or breaks something you arrest immediately, the second person you arrest them IMMEDIATELY there is very rarely then a third person that throws a rock or breaks a window.

    This is chaos because these Mayors and Governors are ALLOWING this.

  131. PaTroll
    If you think a riot falls apart after the first 2 arrests, you really don’t understand how a riot works…

  132. Yes I too had to chuckle at Troll’s naive belief that sudden harshness by the police will quell a riot expanding. In some cases yes that will happen but that’s because the mood of the majority of the crowd is not to riot and the police can deal with the small number of hotheads who are behaving independently. If the majority mood of a crowd is angry and violent, then a riot will happen and escalate regardless of how the police react.

  133. Arresting rioters, in my experience, leads to an escalation in fighting, not a de-escalation.

  134. Patrick
    //True you never just want to shoot anyone, but people getting shot for tresspassing even just on peoples property happens more often than you think and the homeowner is usually not charged or if charged not convicted.//

    That’s terrible. Not being punished for executing someone just being on your property.

  135. Seimi I know you have been in riots and once riots start they are very hard to stop.

    I’ve watched several I’ve seen 2 get out of hand and at least 4 that were shut down as they’ve begun.

    It is the hesitation of arrests and the hesitation of the use of force by the cops that decides whether or not things escalate.

  136. Patrick

    I think it’s just plain wrong to claim that in every case. There are moments in history – The race riots of the 1960s in your country, or the 1969 eruption of civil disorder in Northern Ireland, where quick arrests or tougher police response would or did have absolutely no impact on the inevitabilty of those riots escalating.

    In most protest situations I think you are correct, but there are times when a violent explosion will occur regardless of how police respond.

  137. What you are witnessing now is the result of cops not being allowed to do their jobs.

    What we have witnessed over the past 12yrs is the adoption of European Tactics used here. They don’t work.

    When you allow the Animals to run loose to pillage and burn you never settle things down.

    Oh don’t be violent to the “protestors” violence doesn’t work…. well then you’ve never witnessed the proper use of police violence.

    You drag the provocateurs out and arrest them 8 times out of 10 it works, when it doesn’t work you use shields, clubs, and firehoses.

    How do you think this is going to end…. ?

    Oh cumebyah my lord being sung by everybody? The National Guard has been called out in Minnesota WHY ? What are they going to do stand there?

    The tactics you laugh at are the tactics that will end this.

  138. Your perceptions are wrong….. Just as Peter was wrong above. You are working off of Illusion and propaganda.

    This is not Northern Ireland with a 100yrs of strife adding up to this nor is this the 60s. This is now an organized system of professional provocateurs riling people up and then orchestrating the violence.

  139. If you saw 4 riots shut down as soon as they began, they weren’t, by definition, riots.

  140. True they were never allowed to become one.

    But when you see a 100 cops walking abreast down the streets in riot gear and with water cannons with orders to use them….. it’s a riot whether the people back down or are forced down.

  141. Pat seems to think that the automatic knee jerk reaction to violent protest or riot is violence, that’s insanity policing. I’ve seen the ‘snatch squad’ tactic in operation many times and it has never quelled a riot.

    What we have witnessed over the past 12yrs is the adoption of European Tactics used here

    Eh? Ridiculous supposition to assume that there’s a singular ‘European tactic’ response to such things. Here’s the Spanish National Police responding to a protest the last day of Dan Fermin in 2015.

  142. Patrick, on a separate story and so as not to derail this thread, I have posed a question to you on the WHATS BEEN HAPPENING IN IRELAND thread.

  143. This is now an organized system of professional provocateurs riling people up and then orchestrating the violence.

    I’d say what’s riling people up and orchestrating violence is a cop killing a man and him not being immediately arrested, investigated and if justifiable charged.

  144. I’d say what’s riling people up and orchestrating violence is a cop killing a man and him not being immediately arrested, investigated and if justifiable charged.

    and you would be wrong.

  145. Riots here tended to include police and army, both using either rubber (later plastic) bullets , and live rounds. Snatch squads would sometimes attempt to apprehend rioters, but that only tended to escalate the riot, rather than disperse the rioters.

    Force, by the police (or army) does sometimes work, but at other times the wisest move may be to batten down the hatches and let the riot run its course. At least the rioters are focusing on you, rather than the property around them.
    That said, riots here weren’t used as an excuse to loot businesses. They were a direct attack on security forces, with one intention being focusing those forces on one area, sometimes to relieve the fighting in another, as happened in regards to Belfast and the Bogside in Derry.

  146. And you would be wrong

    No, I don’t think I would.

  147. I think its fair to say the immediate violence from the protesting crowds is genuine anger of the killing of George Floyd. The additional burning and looting of stores is excitable herd mentality opportunistic anarchy.

  148. As I commented last night Colm, I’ve noticed a new narrative creeping in over the last few days blaming the violence on some faceless, unprovable conspiracy rather than it’s origin. It’s absolutely certain that there’s an element of what you speak of above, riots also attract the bored as they’re exciting, but this ‘violence orchestrated by a shadowy cabal’ I suspect is attempting to sanitise the origins and reason for the violence.