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Independence Day

By Mahons On July 4th, 2020

Today I’m celebrating our Independence Day. Not withe some boastful claim that a Utopia was created when the Declaration of Independence was adopted, but with the knowledge that a unique and historical step forward advancing the ideals of man was undertaken. In the chaos of history no ideals can themselves absolve us of the struggle for equality, freedom and justice. It is work, and not just the work of one generation. Sucess is never total, and failure often rides along with progress. But advancement and the framework for advancing forward was set forth on that day, 244 years ago. A great experiment was lauched and a great journey undertaken. At its core a dream that all men are created equal, a dream held through nightmares of inequality during times when some people even gave their lives in the hope that the dream would be fulfilled. A dream that still is a dream, but one that has come closer to reality, and not because people pretend it is so, but because people have fought to make it so. A nation where the best have always led the way to reconcile the dream with reality. And where they have called upon the people to continue to strive to embrace those ideals.

195 Responses to “Independence Day”

  1. Good balanced summary of the idea and reality of the USA. There is still a great deal to be proud of in your country. A fantastically productive and creative nation that on balance has been more a force for good than bad. Enjoy the rest of the day Mahons!

  2. Today I’m celebrating our Independence Day.

    I did that on 24th June 2016, Some in these here parts rejected it as mean, petty and narrow minded.

  3. They left without a deal.

    What were they thinking?

    Idiots.

  4. are you a strong defender of the union of UK and NI petem
    Its not a sarky comment, i genuinely don’t know and am curious ?

  5. “They left without a deal.”

    There was a deal. The Treaty of Paris.

  6. Also if we are going to make Brexit comparisons I wonder if Pete can point to when the 13 American colonies originally applied to and chose to join the United Kingdom ?

  7. kurt –

    Of course I am. As is the entire world.

    Seamus –

    The Treaty of Paris post-dated their narrow-minded and petty nationalist decision to leave the biggest market on the planet. And how did that act of national self folly work out for them Exactly!

    Colm –

    The 13 colonies were never part of the United Kingdom. They were colonies. And still are, really.

  8. Worth pointing out that when the 13 colonies existed there was no United Kingdom.

    “The Treaty of Paris post-dated their narrow-minded and petty nationalist decision to leave the biggest market on the planet.”

    Except it didn’t. The Treaty of Paris had economics at its heart, with both sides desiring close economic cooperation. Something the Little Englanders could learn from.

  9. lol petem bar the SNP,SF,SDLP,Plaid Cymru yes of course – the entire world
    what you drinking > hahaha

  10. Pete

    We really haven’t left yet. 😉

  11. At its core a dream that all men are created equal

    Yes, but unfortunately the Declaration of Independence included a clause which made it clear that equality referred to the white settler race and that negro slaves and native Americans would be anything but equal in the brave new world of the Republic:

    “The closing words of the Declaration are far less known. The last of a list of 27 grievances against King George III, they read as follows: “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions.” These words call attention to hard truths about America’s founding that have often been brushed aside.

    The 27th grievance raises two issues. The first, the king’s incitement of “domestic insurrections,” refers to slave revolts and reveals a hard truth recently brought to the public’s attention by The New York Times Magazine’s 1619 Project: Some of those who sought independence aimed to protect the institution of slavery. This was particularly true for Virginia slave owners, who were deeply disturbed by a proclamation issued in November 1775 by Virginia Governor Lord Dunmore, which promised enslaved people held by revolutionaries freedom in exchange for joining the British army. Virginians and other southerners feared that it would provoke widespread slave revolts. Edward Rutledge, who later became the governor of South Carolina, declared that Dunmore’s proclamation would do more than any other effort to “work an eternal separation between Great Britain and the Colonies,” and George Washington called Dunmore “that arch-traitor to the rights of humanity.”

    A second hard truth exposed by the 27th grievance—and its racist depiction of Native Americans as “merciless Indian savages”—has generated much less public discussion. In indicting the king for unleashing Indians on the “inhabitants of our frontiers,” the Declaration was not referring to a specific event but rather to the recent escalation of violence, which was caused by colonists invading Native lands west of the Appalachian Mountains. In response, a confederation of Senecas, Shawnees, Delawares, Ottawas, Cherokees, and other Native nations exercised a right of self-defense and attacked new colonial settlements. Although the Native nations had British support, they were acting on their own and not at the instigation of the Crown. Nonetheless, Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration’s primary drafter, hoped that by fanning the flames of settlers’ anti-Indian racism and implicating George III, he could ignite a general conflagration against the British in the West. In this way, the 27th grievance helped lay the foundation for an American nationalism that would demonize the continent’s indigenous people, especially when they resisted American aggressions…”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/americas-twofold-original-sin/606163/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20200703&silverid-ref=NjIzNTcxMzkyMDgxS0

  12. Of course I am. As is the entire world

    You didn’t once say that losing the wee six from the UK would be a price worth paying for Brexit?

  13. good post mahons, strikes a chord, country is crying our for leaderhip to take that forward: shaping events rather than reacting to them

    For some unknown reason ( even to myself ) I’m interested in Iowa
    the senate race between the R incumbet and D challenger and ofc whether it will stay red or go blue
    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/06/13/iowa-poll-theresa-greenfield-edges-joni-ernst-senate-race/3185343001/

    what kinda people are Iowans and how much are the larger parties organised over there ?
    anyone know , got the low down? phantom what’s the craic> are they hilly billies, farmers, bible thumpers, cowpokes, industrial manufacture .. ?

  14. Kurt, Iowa is a red state-just a bit. It was a Union state during the Civil War, and grows mostly corn. Both parties try to buy it off with our huge Farm Subsidies and Ethanol subsidies (which come from corn) to get votes.

  15. thanks charles , I’d a quick read on wiki and i think you’ve said it all ..lol
    Bridges of Madison County is perhaps its point of interest 😉

  16. Kurt now the only Iowa craic I know:

    What’s the difference between an Iowa corn farmer with epilepsy and a prostitute with diarrhea?

    The corn farmer with epilepsy shucks between fits…

  17. What’s the difference between a cop’s baton and a magician’s wand?

    One’s used for cunning stunts.

  18. Peter – could you possibly cut down that to make a point?

  19. Anyone whowe romanticism of the native Americans thinks they were guilt free knows not American history or native American history.

  20. Mahons.

    Like me, I think you might have had a few drinks mate. 😁

  21. Good writing Mahons. Some of the sentences had a hint of the Gettysburg Address I thought!

  22. I agree Charles.

  23. they we’re having a picnic one day when 3 boats pulled up…..

  24. It does seem like our American friends were lubricating their throats yesterday and why not. Hope you all had a good day and made sure , like us Brits with the Queens speech on Xmas day, That you took some time to reverentially listen to your great leader’s Fourth of July address to the nation 😉

  25. Mahons to sum up Peters comment he’s following the line of your party and your paper the US was founded as an oppressive slave state and has never been anything but even today.

  26. question…… What were the names of the Black President/King/Queen or head shillelagh holder ELECTED in Ireland and Germany ?

  27. or

    Belgium
    Bulgaria
    Croatia
    Cyprus
    Denmark
    Germany
    Estonia
    Finland
    France
    Greece
    United Kingdom
    Hungary
    Ireland
    Italy
    Latvia
    Lithuania
    Luxembourg
    Malta
    The Netherlands
    Austria
    Poland
    Portugal
    Romania
    Slovenia
    Slovakia
    Spain
    Czech Republic
    Sweden

    How many of those Nations have Elected a Black Head of State ?

  28. How many of those Nations have Elected a Black Head of State ?

    AFAIK none have, why? What’s the point you’re trying to make?

  29. Hey Patrick. We let Meghan Markle into our Royal Family. Isn’t that good enough ? 😉

  30. He’s trying to point out that the good old USA elected a black man twice, overwhelmingly by white people, and therefore we are not a racist country. I think.

    Good morning all!

  31. Maidin mhaith a Cathal Charles.

    I don’t see what the comparison with the Euro countries is. least twelve of the Euro countries above have had women elected Heads of State so applying Patrick’s identity politics to gender obviously must mean that the US is inherently misogynistic?

  32. Charles – Obama did not win the majority of the white vote in either election. Now, I don’t think we are a racist country, but we obviously have racism in our country.

  33. Diane Abbot has heard you pat 😉

  34. Morning Charles. Hope you had a great 4th.

    Yes we get the point Patrick is making, but it’s a fairly trite one. A bit like suggesting that because the U.K. elected a woman PM ( twice now) we have eliminated sexism in our country or that because you haven’t had a woman President you must as a country be more sexist than any country that has had a woman leader, like for example India or Pakistan !

    To paraphrase , one Obama doesn’t make a (racially perfect) summer 😉

  35. Kurt

    I see your sly attempts to get Harri back here 😉

  36. The irony of those who fought against the election of a back man as President citing that election as proof of their racial tolerance is akin to those who fought against the social distancing to deal with the pandemic and when it worked claim the pandemic wasn’t as bad as claimed.

  37. I wouldn’t say that is a fair allegation to make at Patrick. He wouldn’t have voted for Obama because he was the Democrat candidate not because he didn’t want a black man as President.

  38. Good morning, (afternoon) Charles.

    Yes. I think Patrick’s trying to make the point that the US isn’t racist.

  39. Very few European countries have sizeable black populations. Even in France and Britain (the later of which doesn’t elect its Head of State) it is only about 3%.

  40. Colm my comment is not directed against Patrick in particular. There are people in the US who claim Obama’s election somehow demonstrates a lack of racism in the US.

  41. I don’t think the us as a whole is a racist country. (Whatever that means.) Obviously there are racists within the US. I’m sure this applies to most countries.
    When I worked in Poland I was quite surprised to find out how racist a large number of the polish population actually were. For worse than the US or UK.

  42. Yes. I think Patrick’s trying to make the point that the US isn’t racist

    I’d say he’s trying for the ‘land of opportunity where even a black man can reach highest office’ angle, Dave. Which seems to be grand as long as you’re not one of the 50.8% female US population.

  43. Mahons, on July 5th, 2020 at 1:02 PM Said:
    Charles – Obama did not win the majority of the white vote in either election. Now, I don’t think we are a racist country, but we obviously have racism in our country.

    Are you really that stupid or just that corrupt Mahons…… ?

  44. Charles nailed EXACTLY what I was saying

  45. If the right woman ran she’s win, the beast as you like to point out got the majority of the votes but she was playing checkers, not chess and lost.

  46. Patrick – your question makes no sense, which is not unusual for you. John McCain won 55% of the white vote.

  47. If the right woman ran she’d win

    I wasn’t talking specifically about the Beast. You asked the question how many of the Euro countries you listed had elected a black head of state but the fact that the US has a majority female population while never electing a female head of state while at least twelve of the countries listed have shows how flawed the identity politics analogy was.

  48. Romney won 59% of the white vote.

  49. Facts are so inconvenient.

  50. Fact……. the majority of Yes votes Obama got for President were White People.

    Every black person in the country could vote for a Black Person and it would not be enough votes to win….. more whites voted for him than any group. That is the FACTS.

    My Point was simple being lectured by a bunch of wacko euroweenies whose leaders are now and always have been as lily white as you can get have no grounds to speak about race relations….. Ovens weren’t formed on this side of the pond to handle the “race” problem, but they sure as hell were there.

  51. If voting for a black person makes you not a racist, does that mean those who didn’t vote for him are a racist?

    “My Point was simple being lectured by a bunch of wacko euroweenies whose leaders are now and always have been as lily white as you can get have no grounds to speak about race relations”

    And the black population in America is much larger than the black population in Europe.

    “Ovens weren’t formed on this side of the pond to handle the “race” problem, but they sure as hell were there.”

    No but smallpox blankets were.

  52. Whites are a majority. Math isn’t your strong point. Go back to counting 800,000 people in stadiums.

  53. So Mahons did Obama get more Black Votes or more White votes ?

  54. Black population in US is 13.4%

    There are currently eight million non-white people – 14% of the total – across England and Wales, according to the study by the Tory think tank Policy Exchange.

    guess you’re wrong again Seamus

  55. My Point was simple being lectured by a bunch of wacko euroweenies whose leaders are now and always have been as lily white as you can get have no grounds to speak about race relations….. Ovens weren’t formed on this side of the pond to handle the “race” problem, but they sure as hell were there.

    The way the native American population were treated, leaves you with no room to take the high ground on genocide Patrick.

  56. Would such a comparison be considered racist?

    https://images.app.goo.gl/LTvvCPtSq57gWqEk7

  57. Europe, The British Isles, Russia, China and every nation across the pond are the home of racism, ethnic cleansing, religious persecution, Cast systems, and slavery……

  58. Paul that comparison would be apropos, but also racist.

  59. Everywhere, including the US, is the home of racism.

    Would propagating the image also be condidered racist Pat?

  60. Slavery was abolished in most of Europe before America even existed. Even when European colonies (such as America) allowed and thrived on the back of slavery, slavery it self was illegal in most of Europe. It was illegal to hold a slave in the UK, so much so that when an American man, Charles Stewart, took a slave to England the courts ruled in 1772 he was no longer a slave. It was a decision that increased support for American independence in the southern states.

  61. Lol. You are comparing the black population in the US with the non-white population in the UK which includes Asians. Do you think people don’t know these things?

  62. “Black population in US is 13.4%

    There are currently eight million non-white people – 14% of the total – across England and Wales, according to the study by the Tory think tank Policy Exchange.

    guess you’re wrong again Seamus”

    As Mahons points out you are being dishonest. Most likely deliberately dishonest. But by that measure the non-white population of the United States is about 40%. So 100% of UK Prime Ministers are white, out of a white population of about 87%. While 97% of the US Presidents have been white, out of a white population of about 60%.

  63. Of course Obama got numerically more white votes, it is a product of our majority population. But he twice lost the overall white vote and did not win “overwhelmingly” the white vote as Charles mistakenly wrote.

  64. Mahons so you’re just flat out denying that the majority of votes that Obama got for President were from White Americans….. it fit’s with your delusional views.

    There is no racism in the United States, and hasn’t been for decades. Now you can deny that all you want but it’s just fact.

    Black, White, Yellow, Brown, Male or Female mean nothing here. Even wealth status at birth means nothing.

    You become as rich, powerful, successful, or famous in the US strictly on your own merits and your race or sex does not play a factor.

  65. Stop looking for external reasons for peoples failure.

    A person fails because they are not educated in how to succeed. Whether that’s at school, work, or just being a productive member of society. Race and Gender mean nothing.

    Family and Morality mean everything. How you were raised, nothing else is what decides who you will become. Every Person on Earth is shaped by the environment they spend the first 15 years of their life living in. Everything that happens in their lives is set on how they were raised in those first 15yrs.

    Period

  66. So black people who don’t succed in the same proportions as white people are just lazy, or stupid? Are you are pretending you aren’t a racist?

  67. I haven’t denied any such thing, as anyone who can read can see. As for delusion, to claim thete is no racism in the US is the prime example.

  68. I see that Kanya West has declared he will run for POTUS:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53297864

    Well, if an ill educated chancer with the morals of an alley cat make it to POTUS why shouldn’t a ‘sleb’ try to split the Democratic vote scale the dizzying heights too?

  69. hi pat
    of the 45 US presidents , who ranks top and bottom to you? Best and worst ?
    and Obama where would you put him on the ladder ?

  70. Patrick

    Family and Morality mean everything. How you were raised, nothing else is what decides who you will become.

    That’s total nonsense. How you raised plays a factor in who you will become, but it’s not the sole factor. Plenty of children raised by bad parents have turned out well, and plenty of children raised by good parents have turned out bad.

  71. There is no racism in the United States period, end of story. That doesn’t mean there are no racists.

    Seamus, on July 5th, 2020 at 4:07 PM Said:
    So black people who don’t succed in the same proportions as white people are just lazy, or stupid? Are you are pretending you aren’t a racist?

    No but you’re being stupid. Facts

    73% of black children are born out of wedlock and raised by either just a mother or grandmother.

    65% only graduate High School.

    When you have no father and you have no education you have no future. It is not a matter of skin color. It is a matter of Morality and Education.

    The Majority of the US Black population live in 10 cities. In those cities all Democrat ran, they have no home life, no education, no jobs for the low skilled. What’s left is drugs and crime.

    If you took any race and removed the Father from the home, retarded their education and discouraged church you’d get the same stats as you do in the black community.

    Instead we have pimps that teach these people that it’s not because you don’t know who your daddy is, your mother has a needle in her arm, and you have no education that your life is a mess, it’s because you are black…….

    Bullshit…. it’s because you were not raised properly. Period.

  72. That’s total nonsense. How you raised plays a factor in who you will become, but it’s not the sole factor. Plenty of children raised by bad parents have turned out well, and plenty of children raised by good parents have turned out bad.

    no Dave that is the EXCEPTION not the rule.

  73. Family and home environment shape who you are.

  74. agree with alot of that pat, it has some traction indeed, esp with the stats and breakdowns

    Of course I’m sure you’d agree killing them in broad daylight aka George Floyd and incarcerating them for years for smoking a doobie, doesn’t helps their self esteem and feelings of inadequacy ? Both Left and Right need to wise up and get their shit together as concerns black folks .. Yes ?

    of the 45 US presidents , who ranks top and bottom to you? Best and worst ?
    and Obama where would you put him on the ladder ?

  75. Dave,

    “That’s total nonsense. How you raised plays a factor in who you will become, but it’s not the sole factor.”

    It’s just another in a long line of confidently asserted falsehoods from Patrick.

    After you have controlled for socioeconomic status (SES, i.e. wealth) and genetics, it seems that NONE of the difference in children’s long term outcomes is explained by parental influence, outside of out and out abuse. And the reality of “how children are raised” is that their peers do it.

    How many kids does anybody know who dress and speak like their parents, for example? And the kids of immigrants tend to take on the language, accent and morals of their peers. Twins raised apart have similar outcomes, again once you control for SES. All the blather about “fatherless homes” doesn’t seem to apply when the father is dead.

    Judith Rich Harris presented this basic finding 25 years ago and as far as I know, nobody has shown any evidence to the contrary since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Rich_Harris

  76. Pat,

    So given that you are now introducing other factors, such as family life, education etc… in to the mix does that mean you admit that your comment “You become as rich, powerful, successful, or famous in the US strictly on your own merits” was wrong. And that other factors, other than your own merits, will partially determine your success?

  77. Patrick
    //Family and home environment shape who you are.//

    I agree Patrick but there are many other factors which also shape who you and will become. Genetics for instance plays a role. You claimed How you were raised, nothing else is what decides who you will become. Which is demonstrably false.

  78. So given that you are now introducing other factors, such as family life, education etc… in to the mix does that mean you admit that your comment “You become as rich, powerful, successful, or famous in the US strictly on your own merits” was wrong. And that other factors, other than your own merits, will partially determine your success?

    NO

    Anyone can overcome anything no matter race, creed, gender, or environment.

    Success is a matter of will. Whether your a poor black kid, a poor white kid or a rich one. Whether daddy was gone and mama was on dope, or daddy and mommy both worked and were happy and abundantly provided.

    The individual succeeds or fails strictly on their own merits.

    The fact that you can point to success from those from the worst conditions and failure from those from the best.

    How well a person does in Life is based on nothing but that own individuals merit.

  79. or genetics

  80. “How well a person does in Life is based on nothing but that own individuals merit.”

    So their family background, their education etc… doesn’t matter? Because an individual has no control over those factors.

  81. So their family background, their education etc… doesn’t matter? Because an individual has no control over those factors.

    You’ve come to the 180 degree wrong conclusion………

    their family background, their education etc… doesn’t matter? Because an individual has total control over what they DO with those factors.

    The factors of ones situation as a child determine the outcome for 98% of individuals, but there are 1% that no matter the hell of that environment their personal will, will make them a success. Just as there is that 1% that were born into every advantage their LACK of will will squander that advantage and fail.

    And RACE the pigment of ones skin plays zero factor.

  82. “Because an individual has total control over what they DO with those factors.”

    No they don’t. If you can’t afford a top level education, because of your parents income etc… then you will not have a top level education. That puts you at a disadvantage to someone who’s parents could afford a top level education.

    If you are given a head start in life then at least acknowledge that head start. Don’t just pretend you are better than the people who didn’t get one.

  83. If you are given a head start in life then at least acknowledge that head start. Don’t just pretend you are better than the people who didn’t get one.

    Trump is a good example. He would never have “succeeded” in business without the tax-free fortune he inherited from his Klan father. But he brags as if it was all his own doing.

  84. so no poor black kids from broken homes have become rich and famous…..

    Winfrey was born into poverty in rural Mississippi to a teenage single mother and later raised in inner-city Milwaukee. She has stated that she was molested during her childhood and early teens and became pregnant at 14; her son was born prematurely and died in infancy.[13] Winfrey was then sent to live with the man she calls her father, Vernon Winfrey, a barber in Tennessee, and landed a job in radio while still in high school. By 19, she was a co-anchor for the local evening news. Winfrey’s often emotional, extemporaneous delivery eventually led to her transfer to the daytime talk show arena, and after boosting a third-rated local Chicago talk show to first place,[14] she launched her own production company and became internationally syndicated.

    oprah net worth 2020….. $3.2 billion

  85. And Robert Hunter Biden raised in Multimillionaire opulence is a crackhead that stole his dead brothers identity and fathered a child to stripper……

    there’s an example of squandering opportunity.

  86. You are arguing against a point that no one has made.

    Take two people who can’t overcome barriers. Person A can’t overcome barriers, and Person B can’t overcome barriers. If Person A has barriers they will fail. If Person B doesn’t have barriers they will not. Does that mean that Person B is better than Person A?

  87. Biden spent decades struggling with alcohol and drug addiction. He said, “There’s addiction in every family. I was in that darkness. I was in that tunnel—it’s a never-ending tunnel. You don’t get rid of it. You figure out how to deal with it.

    ever worked with addicts pat?

  88. Oprah, I think, would be elected to the presidency in a heartbeat.

  89. The repeated nonsense by Patrick that there is no racism in the USA just racist individuals is as daft a claim a saying there is no crime in America just individual criminals.

  90. The biggest single factor in achieving success in life is not talent or hard work it is luck !

  91. Colm,

    The definition of luck is where preparation meets opportunity!

  92. “The definition of luck is where preparation meets opportunity!”

    And what happens when that opportunity is denied?

  93. oprah net worth 2020….. $3.2 billion

    Patrick

    What was it you said earlier about exceptions to the rule? At least try to be consistent.

  94. One definition of luck is sleeping with the right person. It probably explains the success of most people in the entertainment industry 🙂

  95. No Colm show me one instance where a person in the US in 2020 is kept from anything due to their race……

    You can’t name one.

  96. “No Colm show me one instance where a person in the US in 2020 is kept from anything due to their race……”

    The principle determining factor of success is class. If you are born into relative poverty then you are likely going to stay there. Now that applies whether you are black or white, or any other colour. But there is a systemic legacy of slavery and Jim Crow that has relegated black communities to poverty. That a larger proportion of black people are in poverty is not because of the individual actions of those people, but by that systemic legacy.

  97. I am consistent Peter, try to keep up with conversation…..

    If you’re going to jump into the middle of something context counts.

    My examples were a refute to Seamus’s remark and therefore don’t break any consistency.

  98. “My examples were a refute to Seamus’s remark and therefore don’t break any consistency.”

    Except they weren’t a refute to my remarks. They were a rebuttal to a point that no one made.

  99. The principle determining factor of success is class.

    Bullshit, not in the US. The greatest group that produces successful adults are the middle class in our country of every race.

  100. “Bullshit, not in the US. The greatest group that produces successful adults are the middle class in our country of every race.”

    Which is my point. Class is a determining factor in success. If you are from a middle class background, and gain all the priveleges that come with it, then you are more likely to be successful than if you are from a working class background, with all the barriers that come with it.

  101. But there is a systemic legacy of slavery and Jim Crow that has relegated black communities to poverty.

    Democrat NEW DEAL policies relegated the black community to perpetual poverty. They destroyed the Black Nuclear Family and trapped them on the Federal Plantation.

  102. “Democrat NEW DEAL policies relegated the black community to perpetual poverty. They destroyed the Black Nuclear Family and trapped them on the Federal Plantation.”

    So are you saying that black people were enjoying huge successes in the United States before 1933?

  103. Bullshit Seamus when you say “class” you speak of wealth and privilege.

    The MIDDLE CLASS of the United States is not divided by wealth it is divided by familial stability.

  104. “Bullshit Seamus when you say “class” you speak of wealth and privilege.”

    Yes. And the middle classes have more wealth and privilege than the working classes.

    “The MIDDLE CLASS of the United States is not divided by wealth it is divided by familial stability.”

    So middle class people don’t make more money than working class people?

  105. In the 50s the Black community was stable, oppressed but stable they had a nuclear family, went to church, and the parents had jobs. There was a thriving black business community.

    That was all destroyed in the 60’s & 70s.

  106. Yes. And the middle classes have more wealth and privilege than the working classes.

    Right there…….. you see but you are blind because you are a foreigner.

    The middle classes are the working classes in the US.

  107. Patrick

    I could actually go online and find the names of individuals who have won race discrimination cases at tribunals and court cases in the USA which disproves your point. Unless you are going to claim nobody in America could possibly ever win such a case because such discrimination doesn’t exist ?

    Of course Racism exists in America as in every country on earth and it influences what happens to people. You demean your own intelligence with your ridiculous claim that it has been banished from your country. Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it doesn’t still happen. Racism like all discriminations happens because humans are flawed and do not treat everyone with perfect equality. They do it in subtle ways but they do it.

  108. In 1954 African American unemployment was double that of white unemployment.

  109. Patrick

    The fact that Oprah Winfrey is a billionaire just highlights that she is the exception, not the rule. Jim Crow held the blacks in subjection until the 1960s but since then they have not advanced significantly in terms of economics. Mass-incarceration is part of the problem, but so is voter suppression which the GOP practices at every opportunity. This can be as crude as limiting the number of polling stations so that blacks have to queue for hours to exercise their right to vote. Jim Crow may be dead but his spirit lives on oin the party of Lincoln, your party.

  110. “The middle classes are the working classes in the US.”

    Is this going to be another “Patrick changes the definition of something because he is losing an argument moment”?

  111. I could actually go online and find the names of individuals who have won race discrimination cases at tribunals and court cases in the USA which disproves your point.

    Actually that would prove my point………

  112. Patrick – like New Yorker – doesn’t recognise the concept of losing an argument. He just goes by the Trump playbook ( We have the best Coronavirus response in the world) and just doubles down on daft statements like “there is no racism in America” and doesn’t actually really care whether it is believed or not. I think such things are often said just for the sake of argument because he can’t believe such trite statements himself in all honesty.

  113. Seamus, on July 5th, 2020 at 8:48 PM Said:
    In 1954 African American unemployment was double that of white unemployment.

    In 1954 the Republicans hadn’t passed the Civil Rights Act yet.

    You have no concept of life in the US. What it was, or what it is now. There’s more proof…

    You see us through a fantasy of delusion that has been fed to you by people with an agenda. Not from any source of reality.

  114. Patrick

    Please explain, how would finding examples of legally recognised cases of race discrimination prove your point that there is no race discrimination ?

  115. No Colm I’m just right, you’re all wrong…… as has usually been the case here.

  116. Peter, any evidence for that GOP polling place canard you mentioned? It doesn’t even make sense. The GOP is not solely in charge of voting places, both parties are.

  117. In 1954 the Republicans hadn’t passed the Civil Rights Act yet.

    That makes absolutely no sense as a riposte to Seamus’s factual statement !

  118. Either that Colm or he’s talking about Ray Cism and seeing as there’s no one in USA called that name that means there’s no racism. See he’s right Colm 🤔

  119. “In 1954 the Republicans hadn’t passed the Civil Rights Act yet.”

    What year did African-American unemployment match white unemployment before the New Deal (which was before 1954 in case you have forgotten) destroyed the black community?

  120. No Colm I’m just right, you’re all wrong…… as has usually been the case here.

    OK Patrick, point taken. Now I know what you are up to. I raise my inferior Euroweenie, British imperialist colonial historic racist hat to you 🙂

  121. Colm, on July 5th, 2020 at 9:01 PM Said:
    Patrick

    Please explain, how would finding examples of legally recognised cases of race discrimination prove your point that there is no race discrimination ?

    Because it’s so rare that when it happens they get the shit sued out of them for their behavior.

    If the US was racist and didn’t persecute and prosecute racism when it happens then we’d be racist. The fact that if you can show someone acted based on race you’ll not only win in court but will probably find that person becomes much weathier as compensation and those that discriminated are destroyed.

  122. “The fact that if you can show someone acted based on race you’ll not only win in court but will probably find that person becomes much weathier as compensation and those that discriminated are destroyed.”

    If you can prove it. If you are discriminated against on account of your race and you can’t prove it then you can’t do anything about it.

  123. The NEW DEAL did damage to black employment, family and society…. the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1964 leveled the field.

  124. If you can prove it. If you are discriminated against on account of your race and you can’t prove it then you can’t do anything about it.

    If you can prove it…… it happened.

    If you can’t prove it…. it didn’t.

    Facts and Evidence….. Blind Justice.

  125. “The NEW DEAL did damage to black employment, family and society…. the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1964 leveled the field.”

    Ok so black unemployment was the same as white unemployment before 1932? And if the (bipartisan) Civil Rights Acts leveled the playing field then why did black unemployment, when compared to white unemployment, not change?

  126. “If you can’t prove it…. it didn’t.”

    Not actually true. I guess no one murdered Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman. They must have stabbed themselves.

  127. Exactly – As I have continually said on this thread, there is of course subtle and not so subtle everyday examples of racism that are just part of the way humans bond, clique and associate. Its hard to prove legally and it isn’t official, it isn’t blatant, and it isn’t all in one direction. But it happens. People get on in the workplace often because they ‘fit’into the scenes and circles they are aiming for and yes of course race plays a part. Patrick’s claim that it doesn’t is ludicrous.

  128. If you can prove it…… it happened.

    If you can’t prove it…. it didn’t.

    OK – So nobody has ever been falsely convicted in court then, and every crime must have been resolved because if it wasn’t then no crime was committed.

    I think Patrick is on a mission this evening to outdo each daft statement he makes at periodic intervals 🙂

  129. It is true….. facts and evidence. Racism is easy to prove when it happens because it’s so rare.

    OJ is still looking for the Killer……. Somebody killed them….. but they didn’t have the facts and evidence to convict OJ. So no matter what anyone feels….. unless they can come up with the evidence….. OJ didn’t do it. Which is why he walked free.

  130. Charles

    There is overwhelming evidence that it is GOP policy to make it difficult for blacks to vote. And this is not confined to Dixie:

    “In North Carolina, Republican lawmakers requested data on various voting practices, broken down by race. They then passed laws that restricted voting and registration many ways that disproportionately affected African Americans, including cutting back on early voting.[7][8] In a 2016 appellate court case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit struck down a law that removed the first week of early voting. The court held that the GOP used the data they gathered to remove the first week of early voting because more African American voters voted during that week, and African American voters were more likely to vote for Democrats.[9] Between 2008 and 2012 in North Carolina, 70% of African American voters voted early.[10] After cuts to early voting, African American turnout in early voting was down by 8.7% (around 66,000 votes) in North Carolina.[11][12]…

    Voting procedure disinformation involves giving voters false information about when and how to vote, leading them to fail to cast valid ballots.

    For example, in recall elections for the Wisconsin State Senate in 2011, Americans for Prosperity, a conservative political advocacy group founded in 2004 by brothers Charles and David Koch to support Republican candidates and causes in the United States,[14] sent many Democratic voters a mailing that gave an incorrect deadline for returning absentee ballots…

    In July 2016, a federal appeals court found that a 2011 Texas voter ID law discriminated against black and Hispanic voters because only a few types of ID were allowed; for example, military IDs and concealed carry permits were allowed, but state employee photo IDs and university photo IDs were not.[19] In August 2017, an updated version of the same Texas voter ID law was found unconstitutional in federal district court; ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States

  131. “Racism is easy to prove when it happens because it’s so rare.”

    No racism is hard to prove (you pretty much need a smoking gun). And because it is so hard to prove it allows fools to pretend it is rare.

    “OJ is still looking for the Killer……. Somebody killed them….. but they didn’t have the facts and evidence to convict OJ. So no matter what anyone feels….. unless they can come up with the evidence….. OJ didn’t do it. Which is why he walked free.”

    Except the fact that he clearly did do it. Just because the court ruled otherwise doesn’t change that fact.

  132. OJ is still looking for the Killer……. Somebody killed them….. but they didn’t have the facts and evidence to convict OJ. So no matter what anyone feels….. unless they can come up with the evidence….. OJ didn’t do it. Which is why he walked free.

    So for the very same reason, Obama, Hillary Clinton, and their administration members have also done nothing criminal while in office.

  133. OK – So nobody has ever been falsely convicted in court then, and every crime must have been resolved because if it wasn’t then no crime was committed.

    Colm there are always exceptions…… and that is what they are exceptions.

    You gentleman want to spin exception as the rule, but it is not the rule.

    1004 people killed by cops while being arrested the ratio of black to white killed was 3 to 1.
    For every black 3 whites died. Those are the facts, the evidence.

    We had a Black President, several black Secretaries of State. 1000s of Black Corporation owners, Millions of Black Executives, Black Senators, Congressman and Supreme Court Justices.

    There is absolutely NO Racism in the United States.

  134. So for the very same reason, Obama, Hillary Clinton, and their administration members have also done nothing criminal while in office.

    They’ve never had their day in court.

  135. “For every black 3 whites died. Those are the facts, the evidence.

    We had a Black President”

    Ok if we are going to play the raw numbers and not per capita game then surely America will be racist until 50% of the President’s have been black. 42 white Presidents, 1 orange President and 1 black President. So in order for America to not be racist the next 42 Presidents should be black. Agreed?

  136. The denial of the existence of racism is obviously a race tinged claim, devoid of truth.

  137. bullshit

  138. No Seamus that’s what you don’t get I’m not playing a game.

    I grew up in the 60s and 70s, I grew up in a city that has always been polarized by black and white lines, I have worked in corporate America with black white and female bosses. I have known racists both white and black and I’ve known 1000s of people of every color that could care less what color sex or religion a person is. I have also known 100s of losers that blame race, their lack of a daddy, their lack of an education, their sex on the reason that they lost, weren’t promoted, didn’t get the job etc etc…. the reason the lost except on those one in a million cases was never because of any of the things they blamed it on.

    And in all that every success I have ever met….. the fact that were, black, white, male, female, gay, straight, jew, gentile, or muslim, RICH and POOR each successful person I have ever known became successful at life because they had the heart and will to make it happen in spite of any real or imagined prejudice against them.

  139. “No Seamus that’s what you don’t get I’m not playing a game.”

    I’m not suggesting you are playing a game. You probably do honestly believe the bullshit you are saying.

  140. Patrick

    Do you not at the very least accept that some people reach positions in life without having to strive heart and soul for it. Do you not accept that certain privileged family or network connections make it easier for some people to climb to a level on the ladder that Isn’t merited by the amount of work they put into it ?

  141. Colm, on July 5th, 2020 at 10:32 PM Said:
    Patrick

    Do you not at the very least accept that some people reach positions in life without having to strive heart and soul for it. Do you not accept that certain privileged family or network connections make it easier for some people to climb to a level on the ladder that Isn’t merited by the amount of work they put into it ?

    Yeah their names are Kennedy and Bush…… but they are the exception. Not the Rule.

  142. Come off it, Patrick. There are millions of little Kennedy’s and Bushes across America and everywhere else. It’s not an exception, it’s a big part of the rule of life. Life isn’t fair. Every baby born is not on an equal path to success as every other. If mummy or daddy is a big fish in the little pond, you are going to be swimming in easier waters and you will have to make an effort to mess up, not make an effort to succeed like most people,

  143. Pat I wish you’d stop calling Clinton and other rapists then when they haven’t been convicted .
    By your own admission as regards OJ he didn’t do it it ?
    I’m right aren’t I ?

  144. Patrick

    The factors of ones situation as a child determine the outcome for 98% of individuals, but there are 1% that no matter the hell of that environment their personal will, will make them a success

    What’s your source for these percentages Patrick? Where are you getting these figures from? Because I think you’re just making them up.

  145. I don’t need to make anything up my percentages are estimates of what I remember. I’ve forgotten more than apparently you’ll ever know.

    Stop listening to what you’ve been told and use the eyes and wits god gave you.

    There are racist people we have one or two resident racists on this site. I live in this country you don’t. I know for a fact that your race sex or what you like to sleep with doesn’t factor into what you can accomplish, and if anyone tries to use any of those things against you society will help you destroy them.

    I’ve witnessed in my life time seperate water fountains and black only accommodations when a black man could be beat senseless for looking at a white woman and watched it change into a society where a black man was President and the majority of every married couple in our tv commercials are interracial with mixed kids and no one bats an eye.

    There is no racism in America, but there are a lot of broken people. People in pain and misery that have to blame someone or something for that pain. We have the highest prison population in the world… I believe don’t know 100% but I ain’t checking the numbers this ain’t about numbers. This is about my society, my culture, my country. We have the most people locked up because we have the most people on drugs.

    People in general inherit their weaknesses and their strengths if not genetically through even more powerful learned behavior. Behavior they witness each and everyday at home. That’s what creates a person. Not the color of their skin that’s just pigment. If you grew up in house where mommy and daddy worked, paid their bills and didn’t abuse each other you have a good chance being their child.

    If your a girl growing up in house with a mother and father except daddy beats mommy every now and then. When you grow up and pick a mate you are very likely to pick one that beats you.

    If mommy and daddy drink everyday or do drugs, their children will drink and do drugs.

    If mommy had one child from one father and another child from a different father and neither father lives with the mother well then those kids are totally fucked… they have no father role model, they have a dumb or worse mother. They have no positive role models. That void is filled then by the streets and is fed by drugs and immorality.

    They wiped out racism in my lifetime but during the same time period they killed both God and the family unit. Creating an underlying layer of despair and immorality.

    We’ve lost 3 generations. It shows in our violence our drug usage and our incarcerations.

    The fight is on how now to correct the despair. One side says we will do it for you, the other side says we will help you, but you have to do it yourself.

    The problem with my side is we don’t know how to fix the damage done over the past 60yrs, but we sure as shit aren’t going to let it go on for another 60.

    No nation can stand without the family and without morality. I’ve spent my life fighting for both, and where I have failed in some areas I have excelled in others. I am both poor and rich. I will never stop fighting to save the soul of my country or the soul of any single person.

    My own soul hangs in the balance.

  146. Patrick
    //I don’t need to make anything up my percentages are estimates of what I remember. I’ve forgotten more than apparently you’ll ever know.//

    Your claims and actual facts are not the same thing Patrick.
    If you want people to accept what you say as fact, then you have to provide evidence to back that up. Otherwise you’re just making stuff up.

    I know you’re just going think that making a personal attack on you Patrick but I’m not. I’m trying to help you, by pointing out that if you want respect and credibility on ATW, then stop telling everybody else they’re idiots, and don’t know what they’re talking about, whilst claiming everything you say is right without providing evidence to back up your claims. You’re an intelligent man Patrick, I know you know I’m right.

  147. following on from that pat you should be pro-Biden as he is set to restore dignity and decency to the WH, and the polls confirm that . My hope is that you get up to speed, cos at the moment you’re behind the curve and have some catching up to do, on the direction your fellow Americans are taking

  148. colm/phantom/charles/mahons anyone could you elaborate a bit on what pat is claiming about the Left destroying families for 60 years.
    As far as I know the Left have helped to support families left behind much like in UK where dsyfunctionality exists. I didn’t know that the healthy nuclear family have been destroyed by the Lefts polices . as far as religion is concerned all countries have seen a decline in church attendance, that’s not the gov’t job to force you into church. They do that in saudi though, the religious police corral you in and carry whips. Pat is that what’s missing in USA white poilce with bullwhips ?

  149. Kurt

    Yes, I understand Pat’s argument. Before LBJ’s Great Society put blacks on the government teat, black families thrived. There lives centered around family, church, and black owned business. Conservatives contend that by pouring trillions into the black community, all we have done is run off the black fathers as bread winners, and replaced them with baby daddy, thus destroying the nuclear black family. We have done this all in the name of helping them.

  150. Kurt

    Yes, I understand Pat’s argument. Before LBJ’s Great Society put blacks on the government teat, black families thrived. There lives centered around family, church, and black owned business. Conservatives contend that by pouring trillions into the black community, all we have done is run off the black fathers as bread winners, and replaced them with baby daddy, thus destroying the nuclear black family. We have done this all in the name of helping them.

  151. // Before LBJ’s Great Society put blacks on the government teat, black families thrived.//

    Before Before LBJ, there was state segregation, widespread discrimination against blacks and a level of racism that makes anything today look trivial.

  152. i hear you charles but isn’t this is to do with prevention and unintended consequences surely, its nuanced

    in UK Beveridge came up with the 5 evil giants

    The Five Giants
    want (caused by poverty)
    ignorance (caused by a lack of education)
    squalor (caused by poor housing)
    idleness (caused by a lack of jobs, or the ability to gain employment)
    disease (caused by inadequate health care provision)

    Now if by attempts to prevent these things , family breakdowns have occurred where the fathers are not working, that’s a problem .. but what is worse ?
    Not tackling the 5 Giants, or tackling them and dealing with side-effects ?
    as in medicine there’s always side -effects !

  153. The destructive influence of welfare as a lifestyle here is exaggerated. It is framed in the “ Democrat always bad “ simplicity.

    The same welfare system would be have been available to Asian Americans.

    Yet Asian American families are mainly intact, their children perform much better in every level of school, With far lower rates of drugs use, they have moved up the economic ladder far more since the 1960s.

  154. we’ve moved a long way from “let them eat cake” to ” don’t give them baths, they’ll only put their coal in them ” . But the facts are it costs society so much more in policing costs, criminal justice system expenses, social worker costs, housing costs to ignore these problems.
    Being wedded to dogmas is hugely expensive and wasteful ( both sides are guilty of this )

    we are who we are though, when you strip this all back you arrive at carrots and sticks

    Democrats are usually the ones with the carrots and Republicans the sticks
    and you put your X in the box 😉

  155. The percentage of blacks who are on welfare Is over twice the percentage of Asians or whites who are on welfare, and it’s well above the rate for hispanics.

    If the welfare system destroyed families, Then it would’ve destroyed the Asian and white families also. It didn’t

    And BTW – most black families are not on welfare. ( I absolutely don’t count things like Medicaid or food stamps as welfare. Many who receive those benefits are hard working poor. )

    https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/ph_2015-03_statistical-portrait-of-hispanics-in-the-united-states-2013_current-33/

  156. In 1940 black men made 48¢ on the $ compared to white men. In 1960 black men made 62¢ on the $ compared to white men. By 1980 that had risen to 76¢ on the $. In 2018 it was still 76¢ on the $. So what happened in the 1980s?

    One major change is in the type of black businesses. In previous years black businesses tended to focus on personal services. The stereotypical black business was literally a barbershop. Starting in the 1960s however public procurement contracts offered more points for minority owned businesses. So a lot of minority owned businesses started up to take advantage of public procurement opportunities, so much so that 13% of black business revenue came from public contracts, compared to only 6% for white business revenue. A cut in public procurement (a hallmark of Reagonomics) was always going to hurt black businesses more than white businesses. Combine this with the Supreme Court gutting affirmative action programmes in the late 1980s and progress in income equality for blacks stalled.

    Ultimately the collapse of the family unit occured because the family unit in many of these situations was artificial to begin with. Actual marriage has not declined at a faster rate in the black community than amongst whites. What has declined is shotgun weddings. It is estimated that the majority of the growth of out of wedlock births in the United States are in situations where the parents previously would have been forced to been married. The idea that society would be better in a situation where the woman was forced to be financial tethered to someone because she had no choice is appaulling. It is effectivelly a legalised form of sexual slavery. The key is not to remove support for single mothers to force them to stay with the father of the child (no matter what that father may do to them). The key is increase the support so that the child doesn’t suffer from the absence of their father.

  157. There is no racism in America

    What an incredibly stupid claim.

    I’m sure the KKK would absolutely agree.

  158. PaTroll

    When you have no father and you have no education you have no future. It is not a matter of skin color. It is a matter of Morality and Education.

    If you took any race and removed the Father from the home, retarded their education and discouraged church you’d get the same stats as you do in the black community.

    Also PaTroll

    I have also known 100s of losers that blame race, their lack of a daddy, their lack of an education, their sex on the reason that they lost, weren’t promoted, didn’t get the job etc etc…. the reason the lost except on those one in a million cases was never because of any of the things they blamed it on.

    Make your mind up. These factors either do or don’t determine success. Which is it?

    Also PaTroll

    There is no racism in the United States period, end of story. That doesn’t mean there are no racists.

    And also PaTroll

    … I grew up in a city that has always been polarized by black and white lines…

    So does Philly’s population consist entirely of individual racists, or does racism exist in just this one city? Again, make your mind up.

  159. There is no racism in the United States period, end of story.

    In terms of equality, PaTroll is literally arguing that Black is White 🙂

  160. The idea that there is no racism among whites, or blacks, or Asians Is idiotic

    There are so many Grand Canyon sized errors in this thread, they are
    not even worth responding to

  161. Before Before LBJ, there was state segregation, widespread discrimination against blacks and a level of racism that makes anything today look trivial.

    Noel LBJ’s Great Society was NOT the Civil Rights Act….. it was a WELFARE Bill it did nothing about segregation. The two are totally separate not one in the Same.

    The Five Giants
    want (caused by poverty)
    ignorance (caused by a lack of education)
    squalor (caused by poor housing)
    idleness (caused by a lack of jobs, or the ability to gain employment)
    disease (caused by inadequate health care provision)

    LBJ’s great society caused and added all those things in Black Community Kurt.

    What an incredibly stupid claim.

    I’m sure the KKK would absolutely agree.

    So Paul what businesses do the KKK control ? What branch of Government ? Where are the Laws that they have written to keep minorities down?

    NONE on all counts, unless of course you want to accept the fact that the KKK is a wing of the Democrat Party as it has ALWAYS BEEN, The Democrats were the Party of Slavery, Did you know that when the Civil War Started not one Republican who held office owned Slaves… only Democrats. The Democrat Party is the Party of Slavery, KKK, Segregation, and then the Welfare Plantation.

    There is NO RACISM in the United States. It is prevented both culturally and by Law and if you are found to be racist your life and business is destroyed. Which is why racism is always the first and last card thrown by any and every left leaning person. They try to label you a racist to destroy you.

    Seimi you get a response all to yourself, but so does Dave….. wait for it. I type slow.

  162. So Paul what businesses do the KKK control ? What branch of Government ? Where are the Laws that they have written to keep minorities down?

    I don’t know Pat but whatever they do / don’t has FA to do with the claim. You claimed there is no racism in the US and the fact that the KKK exists in the US as a cohesive group shows just how stupid such a claim is.

    BTW, some of the biggest racist bastards I have had the displeasure to meet were Irish Americans.

  163. Dave first he’s always the easiest…..

    Patrick
    //I don’t need to make anything up my percentages are estimates of what I remember. I’ve forgotten more than apparently you’ll ever know.//

    Your claims and actual facts are not the same thing Patrick.
    If you want people to accept what you say as fact, then you have to provide evidence to back that up. Otherwise you’re just making stuff up.

    I know you’re just going think that making a personal attack on you Patrick but I’m not. I’m trying to help you, by pointing out that if you want respect and credibility on ATW, then stop telling everybody else they’re idiots, and don’t know what they’re talking about, whilst claiming everything you say is right without providing evidence to back up your claims. You’re an intelligent man Patrick, I know you know I’m right.

    Dave you can accept what I have to say or not that is your choice.

    respect and credibility on ATW, what were drunk or stoned when you wrote that ? There is NO respect and credibility on ATW, We have a resident NAZI, Several Supporters of Terror, A couple of racists, some conspiracy nuts, 1 Neutral Person, 1 Semi Conservative, 1 liberal drone, 1 liberal who knows the Liberals are wrong, but can’t help defending them anyway, 1 Malcontent, 1 Conservative, and an assorted bag of nuts that pass through.

    I don’t want you or anyones RESPECT on this site, you’re all incapable of it, and if anyone one of you showed me any respect I would call your family and have them take you in for a psych eval because it would be so out of character you’d need a psych eval.

    As for Credibility….. my credibility is spotless sunny…. I can link and put up data that back up everything I say. I’m not Allan and none of you would read them anyway so I don’t waste my time unless one or two people ask for something specific and you ain’t one of them….

    I speak the Truth, if any number I quote isn’t exact it’s not because I’m lying as you insist. It’s because I’m not spending hours pulling up information that can be easily checked by yourself if you can gather enough wits to do so.

    The Drone has called me a Liar for 20yrs and has never found an proven that I ever said a single Lie on here. He did find one quote I got wrong…. that’s it skippy.

    respect and credibility on ATW, I want neither.

    If you choose to doubt the things I say you do so to your own detriment. Ignorance always feels comfortable staying ignorant which is the seat that many of you, not all but many occupy that seat very comfortably.

  164. “Supporters of Terror, A couple of racists, some conspiracy nuts”

    And that’s just Patrick.

  165. Seimi…. ahh Seimi what to say to you…… before I do I want to make a statement.

    Paul/Seimi/Seamus I opposed all 3 of you being allowed access to comment on this site. You really don’t grasp how deep my disdain for the IRA is, I would also have opposed you being on here if you were Pro-La Cosa Nostra.

    However the 3 of you are all great additions to the site, together as a group and individually you are by far the best people on here to have a conversation with, because you are the only 3 that actually will have a conversation on a subject.

    I personally want to say I was wrong on opposing your entry, and I am grateful that you are all here.

    Now that being said…..

    Seimi you highlight several of my statements as if they contradict. They don’t. When you take them out of context and put them side by side they may seem that they do, but that’s because you have taken sections of larger parts and put other sections from larger parts and then you point and say see see he’s contradicting himself… bullshit my friend.

    Things must be taken in the context that they are presented or it is you that is lying by creating a false narrative.

    Try harder, make an argument out of YOUR thoughts rather than trying to twist my words.

    Seamus next.

  166. We have a resident NAZI, Several Supporters of Terror, A couple of racists, some conspiracy nuts, 1 Neutral Person, 1 Semi Conservative, 1 liberal drone, 1 liberal who knows the Liberals are wrong, but can’t help defending them anyway, 1 Malcontent, 1 Conservative, and an assorted bag of nuts that pass through.

    We are all now trying to work out which category(s) we are in 🙂

  167. Paul/Seimi/Seamus I opposed all 3 of you being allowed access to comment on this site

    That really doesn’t do much for those freedom of speech credentials that you’re always going on about, Pat. I am however grateful for your generous submissions of mine and others’ posts.

  168. Although Patrick has at least admitted he was wrong about his opposition to you three being on here , that admission does rather contradict his oft repeated claim of having an inbuilt superior American respect for and devotion to Free Speech which use repressed Euroweenies could never understand 🙂

  169. That must be one fierce hangover you’re nursing today, Troll. So much anger and vitriol!

    Several Supporters of Terror

    I take it you mean your several personalities? You’re the ONLY person on this site who has supported the use of terror as a weapon against civilian populations. The only one.

    Paul/Seimi/Seamus I opposed all 3 of you being allowed access to comment on this site.

    LOL – with someone with such violent urges and beliefs as yourself already on the site, I suppose the owner of the site felt that the views of Irish Republicans would be a gentle change from the bloodthirsty disregard for human lives which you display.

  170. Seamus thank you for the the laugh…..

    Seamus, on July 6th, 2020 at 12:39 PM Said:
    In 1940 black men made 48¢ on the $ compared to white men. In 1960 black men made 62¢ on the $ compared to white men. By 1980 that had risen to 76¢ on the $. In 2018 it was still 76¢ on the $. So what happened in the 1980s?

    One major change is in the type of black businesses. In previous years black businesses tended to focus on personal services. The stereotypical black business was literally a barbershop. Starting in the 1960s however public procurement contracts offered more points for minority owned businesses. So a lot of minority owned businesses started up to take advantage of public procurement opportunities, so much so that 13% of black business revenue came from public contracts, compared to only 6% for white business revenue. A cut in public procurement (a hallmark of Reagonomics) was always going to hurt black businesses more than white businesses. Combine this with the Supreme Court gutting affirmative action programmes in the late 1980s and progress in income equality for blacks stalled.

    Ultimately the collapse of the family unit occured because the family unit in many of these situations was artificial to begin with. Actual marriage has not declined at a faster rate in the black community than amongst whites. What has declined is shotgun weddings. It is estimated that the majority of the growth of out of wedlock births in the United States are in situations where the parents previously would have been forced to been married. The idea that society would be better in a situation where the woman was forced to be financial tethered to someone because she had no choice is appaulling. It is effectivelly a legalised form of sexual slavery. The key is not to remove support for single mothers to force them to stay with the father of the child (no matter what that father may do to them). The key is increase the support so that the child doesn’t suffer from the absence of their father.

    First you can’t compare pre-1964 with anytime after it…. the rubicon changed and the change was fundamental on every level. So when you start comparing wages of this group against that group etc etc prior to 1964 it’s meaningless.

    You as what happened in the 80s…. simple answer the 70’s. The economy collapsed in the 70s first with the Oil Crises and then the Carter Presidency. It took the first 8yrs of the 80’s to put things on the right track and that caused a boom in the economy that lasted until 2006 and then it was destroyed followed 2 years later by 8yrs of the worst President to ever hold the office.

    When I worked for USAIR most of my time after I left the Tower and went down to managing ground crews I had a Partner. A Gentleman named DeForest. A Blackman equal to me in skill and education. He made $20,000 more a year than I did. We did the same job we were a team. We solved problems. That was our job. Any unit, department, or division that was having problems we were sent to fix. He made more money than me because he was a better contract negotiator than I was. Same Job, same rank, but the black man was paid more…..

    Your take on black business prior to the new deal is historically wrong. Black owned businesses ran the gambit. They weren’t just Barbers and shoe shine boys. They even had their own Black Wall Street.

    The government giving more aid to black business than white business is racist, and is destructive. Kings dream was an even playing field not one balanced to give blacks more than whites, but a removal of race from the equation. That’s what the word equal means. That’s what equality is. Not we have 3 grants and 2 have to go to blacks. We have 3 grants, the 3 best companies should each get one. If the best companies for the job happen to be black owned great, if they are white owned great, if it’s a mix still great. The 3 best companies deserving the grants should be the best qualified to fulfil the contract. Not we have to give x amount to this group or that group because it looks good. This has lead to disaster. Companies were formed and companies were awarded those grants NOT on whether or not they could do the job, but whether or not they were minority owned. The exact opposite of Kings Dream and it created disasters in businesses and contracts failing because the people receiving the grants knew nothing about building a widget, but by gum they were minority owned. The fact that they failed at the task was irrelevant. We done good we helped a minority.

    The New Deal/Great Society was and is a failure. It’s stated goal was to reduce poverty. The exact same percentage of our society is in poverty now as when the ND was passed. That is a judgement of failure.

    You also have the last section wrong. Yes the institution of marriage has declined in every group in the US, but in the Black Community it was financially incentivised. The more fatherless children you had the bigger the government check you got. If you married the child’s father you lost money. This had a cascade effect in the black community that destroyed it’s very fiber. It is a catastrophe that we don’t even know how to try and fix and has grown exponentially over the past 60yrs.

    You say cut the money if they don’t marry the father, but it’s not that simple. We changed the whole dynamic of black society. We destroyed the family unit and more important we destroyed the ROLE of the Father in the black community. We forced a change that restructured the whole dynamics of their lives. The resulting disaster will take generations to correct if it ever can be.

    sorry your just wrong.

  171. Except they didn’t destroy the family unit. They destroyed the fake family unit. A family unit that was never real to begin with.

    ” Kings dream was an even playing field not one balanced to give blacks more than whites, but a removal of race from the equation. “

    And there isn’t an even playing field. Pretending there is a level playing field doesn’t mean there is one. There are still huge structural, systemic racism inbuilt into society. And until society overcomes that then given people a boost to overcome that systemic racism is not a bad thing.

  172. Was there a vote on Seamus, Paul and Seimi being allowed on here? I can’t recall such a thing. Far as I can see there was never a litmus test for anyone showing up here.

  173. Patrick’s opinion doesn’t count as far as who belongs here.

    David’s opinion is the only one that counts.

    Some tend to forget that from time to time.

  174. Which way would you have voted, Mahons? 😉

  175. I would assume that as ‘gatekeeper’ both Pat & David discussed it.

  176. I’d have voted that all three are allowed to comment every day except for the 12th of July….

  177. We’re always busy on that day anyway…

  178. NONE on all counts, unless of course you want to accept the fact that the KKK is a wing of the Democrat Party as it has ALWAYS BEEN, The Democrats were the Party of Slavery, Did you know that when the Civil War Started not one Republican who held office owned Slaves… only Democrats. The Democrat Party is the Party of Slavery, KKK, Segregation, and then the Welfare Plantation.

    Those 19th century facts are of course true. They are completely irrelevant today. I might as well claim the Phillies will win in 2021 because of Carlton and Schmidt.

  179. Every single woe, every single problem in the USA can eventually be traced back to the Democrats, in Troll’s mind.

  180. No they can be traced to the destruction of the family and the making a Morality a pariah.

    Both of which can just so happen to be laid at the feet of the Democrats. They made their choices and for 60yrs have been inflicting them on the country.

    That’s just history.

  181. What decisions did they make that led to a destruction of the family and to make morality a pariah? Be specific please.

  182. As for the three…. no there was never a vote, and yes David is the only one whose vote counts. I have never asked for anyone to be banned, barred or censored.

    I did express my concerns privately. I was wrong and I’m not ashamed to say it.

    You people forget David and I speak off these pages. We’ve discussed many things and about many people about this site and other things that have nothing to do with ATW.

    In case you hadn’t noticed I’m not one to keep my views and opinions to myself.

    I have no control of this site, I’m only it’s backdoor. This site in spite of his absence is solely owned and under the control of David Vance.

    As for Paul/Seimi/Seamus I expressed how I feel about them in the comment above.

  183. Regardless of the merits of your opinion Pat you don’t think that it’s contrary to your oft commented commitment to free speech?

  184. What decisions did they make that led to a destruction of the family and to make morality a pariah? Be specific please.

    Since the beginning the 1900s there has been a marxist/leninist wing in the democrat party, that wing is now the party. They have worked incrementally for 100yrs the list of specifics you want would fill these pages.

    The destruction of the Family, and morality have always been their goal. To destroy them and replace them with the State.

  185. “They have worked incrementally for 100yrs the list of specifics you want would fill these pages.”

    So start filling them. Even one or two examples to start.

  186. Paul McMahon, on July 6th, 2020 at 6:51 PM Said:
    Regardless of the merits of your opinion Pat you don’t think that it’s contrary to your oft commented commitment to free speech?

    Yes

  187. Your commitment to free speech is as malleable as your opposition to the use of terrorist violence – it all depends on who is doing it.

  188. No Seamus I’m not going to sit here and list 1000 pieces of legislation and policy about where things were steered the wrong way.

    What I am interested in is how to reverse them. How to correct the damage they have caused.

    You deny that these things happen. Instead of telling me I’m wrong, why don’t you explain why.

    80% of black children if they are born are born out of wedlock, why more black babies are aborted in NYC than are born there, why every weekend 100s of urban blacks shoot each other. Last weekend in NYC, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia and Baltimore 100 black people were killed, all by other black people, why ?

    Why was prayer banned from school, why is the church forced to adopt practices that violate their beliefs in spite of constitutional protection. Why did they stop teaching the constitution in school, why did we lose our manufacturing base and then they were allowed to sit vacant with no industry and jobs to replace them.

    I over the years have listed my reasons why….. tell us what are yours?

  189. Seimi, on July 6th, 2020 at 7:05 PM Said:
    Your commitment to free speech is as malleable as your opposition to the use of terrorist violence – it all depends on who is doing it.

    Emotion tends to dismiss logic….. I am only a man and flawed.

    do you think you are better?

  190. do you think you are better?

    No, I don’t, but I also don’t set myself up as some kind of moral superman on this site, who looks down on everyone else, sees all their faults, and believes that not only is he never wrong, he has also never lied.

    I am only a man and flawed.

    Then don’t pontificate about yourself as if you’re god.

  191. “You deny that these things happen. Instead of telling me I’m wrong, why don’t you explain why.”

    Because you have offered absolutely no evidence for your assertions and that which can be argued without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    “No Seamus I’m not going to sit here and list 1000 pieces of legislation and policy about where things were steered the wrong way.”

    How about naming one or two policies that led to a destruction of the family or made morality a pariah?

    “Why was prayer banned from school”

    First Amendment. Blame known Communist James Madison.

    “why is the church forced to adopt practices that violate their beliefs in spite of constitutional protection.”

    Which practices have churches been forced to adopt that violate their beliefs?

    “Why did they stop teaching the constitution in school”

    When did they stop teaching the constitution in school?

    “why did we lose our manufacturing base and then they were allowed to sit vacant with no industry and jobs to replace them.”

    You didn’t. Manufacturing’s share of real GDP has largely remained constant.

  192. They clearly stopped teaching the Constitution in the schools Patrick attended.

  193. I think Patrick is just reiterating the traditional Conservative reactionary moral view that the growth and development of State welfare and social security provision that has been a main hallmark of largely Left leaning political and social life in Western countries throughout the 20th century has enabled adults to adopt a more ‘fluid’ attitude to marital and family commitments with the state subsidizing their living and child raising arrangements which has had negative affects on stability,commitment and self-reliance within wider societies and more specifically, certain communities.

  194. Colm
    Then he should just say that, instead of, “It wuz the Democrats!” at every opportunity.

  195. Seimi

    That’s because Patrick has a specific medical condition relating to proximity to Democrats. Its like a pyschological version of an extreme nut allergy. If Patrick was sitting at the front of a large Jumbo Jet and 86 rows behind a single Democrat politician took his seat, Patrick would break out in a rash,, his body would become engorged, he then lets out an involuntary roar and then his head explodes. Its a curse that he has bravely had to learn to cope with 🙂