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A Cultural War

By Patrick Van Roy On July 7th, 2020

I have been doing my best for 20yrs now trying to provide an alternative view of events in the U.S. that you just don’t get from the MSM. The information that you do get is a one sided view delivered from an American Liberal perspective. That alone is a problem add to that the fact that Conservative and Liberal mean different things on each side of the Pond.

I am a voice of one, there is no one here on this site, or any site on that side of the Pond that you will get the American Conservative view. What you get is the Democrat Party view of America. A party that no longer supports either America or American Values.

I have been called a Liar and Delusional and those are the nice things.

Right now America is involved in a Civil War. The shooting has only begun on one side though. The Democrat Party is Rioting, Burning Cities and tearing down statues. They have Labeled ALL of the Founders of the Country Tyrant White Supremacists Slave owners and have continued their campaign of erasing American History.

This weekend the NYTs (lol) put out a 3 page article on changing our economy to Marxism and paying Reparations to black people for “our sins”. The American left has fully dropped any pretense of Support for their country and the opportunity that this Nation has provided for them.

The Flag bearers and number one money raiser of the Democrat Party have become BLM

#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

BLM has donated $119 Million to Joe Biden for President and on 4th of July weekend he put out a commercial attacking our fore Fathers. (it’s in the clip below)

I am putting this video clip up because I am NOT the only person saying these things, I’m just the only person that YOU are hearing it from, but these views are shared by Millions of Americans. The clip is 14 minutes long. It is well worth your time to view it.

463 Responses to “A Cultural War”

  1. ‘Cultural war’? I suppose it is in soemway if the media refuse to report things that should be reported:

    https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61577

    Liberty Hangout
    @LibertyHangout
    If hundreds of armed white men marched down the street calling for an all-white ethnostate, the media would make it the leading story for years to come, declare them as terrorists, and ban them from the Internet. But when black supremacists do it, no one cares.
    🤔

    Carl Jones July 7, 2020 at 8:38 am

    I’m no racist, but if black people in the US, Caribbean & UK (BBC R4 Today this morning) want reparations, that’s fine, but under one condition, you ALL go back to Africa.

    I’ll agree with that

  2. BLM has donated $194 Million to Joe Biden for President

    Link please.

  3. That is clearly untrue

    The usual hogwash

  4. That is clearly untrue

    The usual hogwash

  5. Now there is a sensible compromise. Unfortunately, some of the African leaders who would be the recipients of this ‘Afro’ deluge just might have something negative to say in reply.

    After all, most Leaders in Black Africa have their opponents already locked up, or else hiding away; why on earth would they want even more noisy trouble-makers coming from the Land of the Once-Free; so that they could prate and prance around. After all, they’ve got enough prancing around as it is.

  6. Black Lives Matter donates $194 million to Biden campaign say all 800,000 people who attended Trump’s Tulsa rally.

  7. BLM donated $195 million to my bar tab at Jeremy’s Ale House.

    And I need it to be replenished soon.

  8. Actually. Patrick got the figures wrong. BLM donated $194 BILLION dollars to Biden’s campaign… and it all came through a Sicilian Mafia Cryptocurrency account administered by an Italian woman (who is married to Jay Z) and it was funded by George Soros. FACT !

  9. Colm.

    At least you got the George Soros part correct..

    😉

  10. Black Lives Matter website – the organization spearheading nationwide “defund the police” campaigns – is partnered with ActBlue, a Democrat fundraising platform that is the top donor to Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden, responsible for raising nearly 99.64 percent of the Biden for President effort.

    While the Biden campaign insists it doesn’t support efforts to defund the police, it may happily profit from Black Lives Matter (BLM) efforts, and is complicit in taking money from an organization partnered with those spearheading the dangerous policy that has already taken root in Minneapolis, New York, and Los Angeles.

    After reaching the BLM homepage, which features a “Defund The Police” petition front and center, if a user chooses to donate, they’re rerouted to a site hosted by ActBlue and prompted with the message: “We appreciate your support of the movement and our ongoing fight to end state-sanctioned violence, liberate Black people, and end white supremacy forever.”

    The small print on the BLM site confirms the money goes to funding Joe Biden for President, via ActBlue. The page notes: “By proceeding with this transaction, you agree to ActBlue’s terms & conditions”and includes a banner “ActBlue Charities is a qualified 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization and donations are tax-deductible to the full extent allowed under the law” at the bottom of the page.

    Joe Biden is a top beneficiary of the ActBlue’s fundraising efforts.
    As of May 21st, the organization has donated $119,253,857 to the “Biden for President” effort.

    But it’s all bullshit……. right?

    I corrected the dollar amount it’s just a pittance $119 Million.

    When Bernie was running the gave him $186 Million, now all the money goes to Biden. Before the primary was settled they had given EVERY Democrat candidate 10s of Millions.

    and none of you watched the video

  11. Yes it is all bullshit. How the platform works was explained to you previously. So either you don’t understand a fairly simple thing, or you do understand and want to make inaccurate claims.

  12. Patrick

    So it isn’t BLM giving that money to Biden. Its another organisational platform. Thanks for the correction of your false claim.

    PS – Why should any of us watch no 1,345 in your endless line of the same shtick Tucker Carlson videos. Its not as if he has anything original to say that he hasn’t already said a thousand times before. Put something original and genuinely fresh up to watch and it might be worth taking time to view.

  13. No Mahons your Presidential candidate is being funded by BLM to the tune of 119 million.

    He also on the 4th of July put out an add attacking our Founding Fathers.

    You my friend are a brainwashed drone. Orange Man Bad, Brainless Man Good….. Defund the Police, Tear down the Statues, riot, burn, loot….. it’s Trumps fault.

    I understand as a man who has been fed only one version of events their entire life that finding out that you are member of and a supporter of people that want to murder cops and destroy our history it might be upsetting, but that is who you are.

    Your own candidate attacked Jefferson in his add, did you watch it? NO I’m sure you did not. It’s not from the NYTs that ran a 3 page promotion for reparations and marxism in their Sunday Paper so any other source than drone info you’ve read is false.

    It is YOU who has no idea how campaigns, and campaign financing works.

  14. I understand as a man who has been fed only one version of events their entire life

    Bit harsh on yourself there Patrick 🙂

  15. Don’t watch shit Colm, you know everything. You don’t need any information different than what the BBC tells ya.

    I will continue to share information from the rest of America, you all can listen to the 2 NYrs and the beeb.

    When things don’t work out how you’ve been “Informed” my laughter will be heard….. even over there.

  16. Don’t watch shit Colm

    Good advice Patrick. That’s why I am giving your Mr Carlson videos a miss 🙂

  17. good Ignorance is bliss 😉

  18. Biden’s campaign has not received $119 million from BLM. And Bidentify didn’t attack the founding fathers but rather noted they were flawed (a view shared by virtually every historian).
    Do you think that these kind of claims are why people question your ability to be credible?

  19. There are plenty of valid criticims that could be made of BLM and Biden, but you one go far repeating the most outlandish claims of Tucker Carlson or Rush Limbaugh.

  20. nah sorry, ACTBLUE’s primary source of donations are from BLM they have given 119 million to Biden. He touted the BLM message in his add.

    The Democrat Party and their financial backers are supporting riots and have endorsed BLM’s message.

    This is their strategy for winning the election.

    According to all the poles this is a winning strategy for them as the cities burn and the bodies add up so do their numbers the polls show them winning the House, Senate, and the Presidency. For the DNC this strategy is a winner.

  21. and you spew the lies and propaganda of the NYTs and WaPo.

    So tell me how much of your paycheck are you willing to lose for reparations ?

    Because when they win that’s going to be priority one. Gots to payback the rioters that got them elected.

  22. “ACTBLUE’s primary source of donations are from BLM”

    You any evidence for that?

    “The Democrat Party and their financial backers are supporting riots”

    You any evidence for that?

  23. “and you spew the lies and propaganda of the NYTs and WaPo.”

    Can you provide a single lie from the New York Times or the Washington Post?

  24. “He also on the 4th of July put out an add attacking our Founding Fathers.”

    No he didn’t. He pointed out that they didn’t live up to the lofty ideals of the United States. And that the United States should live up to those ideals. Do you not agree that the US should live up to the ideal that all men are created equally?

  25. Repeating things doesn’t make them true. Of course you have nothing to lose in doing so as no one will think less of you, because they couldn’t).

  26. // finding out that you are member of and a supporter of people that want to murder cops and destroy our history it might be upsetting, but that is who you are.//

    Does mahons support (or is a “member of”) people who want to murder cops and destroy American history??? Really, where?

    What a madhouse. People shouting their heads off with any old nonsense just to make noise.

  27. Patrick is clearly trying to distract from the news that Fox News were doctoring photographs so that Trump doesn’t look like a paedophile.

  28. What a madhouse. People shouting their heads off with any old nonsense just to make noise.

    can be that way sometimes Noel, till wiser heads prevail , i speak as one who has undergone “penitencia agitato”
    However there is good news in the cultural war. People are writing new material in banned books, that’s counter-revolution excerpt from Winnie the Pooh
    funny gentlemen ?

  29. Why not try this? Post about why payment of reparations is wrong, based upon your own reasoning. Don’t wait for Tucker, Breibart, Rush or Fox to tell you want you need to think. Personally, I think reparations is a terrible idea. Maybe you’ll convince someone people.

  30. No sense discussing with someone who doesn’t know anything and who is in no hurry to learn anything any time soon.

    There could be much legitimate, powerful criticism of the awful, miserable, Democratic Party of today, but the endless universe of made up and cut and paste nonsense distracts from it

  31. propaganda is all they have it looks like to me, as polls get worse
    when neither the facts nor the law are in your possession, you pound the table
    I think that’s the playbook here !

  32. Don’t wait for Tucker, Breibart, Rush or Fox to tell you want you need to think

    I have to admit, the seemingly endless ‘do yourself a favour and watch/listen to this video’ without any reference of what we’re supposed to be listening for or analysis of what points are made has gotten so tedious that now I just don’t bother.

  33. Fox News already has a website

    People know how to get to it

    No need to cut and paste it every day

  34. When will you all ever learn. Patrick doesn’t do measured persuasion or calm incisive rhetoric. He isn’t in the habit of using a small scalpel precisely when there is a giant axe to swing around wildly instead 🙂

  35. It’s kind of a good idea to know what the facts are

  36. They’re coming for our white women , confederate statues

  37. PaTroll

    Check your mail please 🙂

    Jaysus, we’re all so creative, the regular posters could take a day off tomorrow 🙂

  38. https://www.tmz.com/2020/07/07/tech-ceo-racist-tirade-asian-family/

  39. PVR

    When you post ridiculous statements that are beyond reason and belief against Biden or others and it is transparently in support of Trump, you actually highlight how desperate Trump and his supporters are. It has been downhill since Tulsa, Trump continues to say stupid things, his failings are more prominent, bowing to Putin more despicable and the number of deaths due to virus that should have been saved keeps mounting. It amounts to a bad man, a bad candidate and a bad president. Even if Trump’s campaign manager was a genius, and he is not, he could not pull a rabbit out of the hat in November.

  40. Nice to see a pushback from some in the entertainment world against the cancel culture warriors.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53330105

  41. Yes colm i read that at 6:30 am
    150 signatures in Harper
    The email for me to sign and make it 151 must have gone to junk folders.
    My literary career is in ruins .. Selah 😉

  42. They wouldn’t let me sign it because I would have overshadowed all the other signatories 🙂

  43. Free speech means being allowed to say what you want. It doesn’t mean being able to say what you want free from criticism or consequence.

  44. It does not mean that there should not be a correction by the broader society against “ consequence “

    If corporations or governments can say fire someone for expressing an opinion, then guess what? You’ll have no more speech or citizenship rights than people in China do.

    There has been a disturbing trend. It is correct to talk about it, to address it.

  45. If I embarrass my employer I can be fired. That is the case now, that has always been the case. This isn’t new. If my embarrassing behaviour causes my employer to lose business then not only can they take action against me they should be able to.

  46. The signers include thoughtful people.

    Maybe we should listen to them just a little bit

  47. And not so thoughtful people. Chomsky’s support for Allan like anti-Semitic conspiracy theory types for example.

  48. You have said if NFL players kneel during the US anthem you will stop watching. Is that not cancel culture?

  49. Yes. Criticism and certain consequences is legitimate. But there is definitely a consequences issue that is unfortunately growing when people veer from speech that is fashionable in society.

  50. I have never been Chomsky’s side for on many things

    But he is a thinker

    And he has rejected Trutherism, Which would not make Allan very happy

  51. I’m not trying to get anybody fired, Seamus.

    Sports is a trivial thing. If the trivial thing gets to a point where it is on unwatchable, why should I watch it anymore?

  52. NFL is ‘unwatchable’ if some players kneel down, off the field of play, before the game even starts? Wow.

  53. “Sports is a trivial thing. If the trivial thing gets to a point where it is on unwatchable, why should I watch it anymore?”

    So is most of the people on that list. Why should I consume content from people I don’t want to consume content from?

    Why is it ok for you to stop watching the NFL because of the views and actions of NFL employees but not ok for others to say to businesses that they don’t want to buy their product because of the views and actions of their employees and spokespeople?

  54. Patrick

    good Ignorance is bliss 😉

    You must be the happiest man on planet earth Patrick. 😁

  55. People,can watch what they choose to watch, buy what they choose to buy. That’s hardly cancel culture. You can’t talk about cancel culture if you don’t know what it is!

    Americans generally don’t watch soccer or women’s basketball. They’re seen as boring, completely unwatchable. That doesn’t mean that we’re trying to get that these sports banned, or have the harmed in any way.

  56. Except you are deciding to stop watching because of the political actions of the players. The impication being that if the players didn’t do that, or the NFL stopped them doing it, then you would watch. The further implication being that if the NFL wants to retain your business then they should prevent players from doing that.

    How is this distinct from “cancel culture”?

  57. I think this letter is more a plea for everyone to be more tolerant of listening to views they may not share rather than triggering cancellations boycotts or demands for terminations of contracts because someone holds a view that doesn’t match a particular demanded agreed narrative.

  58. If the NFL doesn’t ban players from disrespecting the national anthem, and the wind seems to have shifted to the point where they not only will not ban them but rather could ban the national anthem themselves, people are going to stay away from it.

  59. Com -agreed.

  60. “people are going to stay away from it.”

    Is that not cancel culture? People boycotting something because they disagree with the company’s politics, or the politics of the company’s employees?

  61. It could be. I try not to get too caught up in labels “woke” or phrases “need for closure”.

  62. Banning your national anthem would be extreme and wrong, just as banning players for kneeling is wrong.
    The players don’t disrupt the game in any way. Their protest is off the field of play and takes place before the game starts. They understand what they earn their salaries for – playing football. So it’s not as if they are going on strike and refusing to play. The fans still get to watch the game.
    It reminds me in a way of the brilliant action taken by Japanese bus drivers. They went on strike, but understood that the public still needed to get to work, so their strike action was not to charge passengers when they got on 🙂

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/11/no-ticket-to-ride-japanese-bus-drivers-strike-by-giving-free-rides-okayama

  63. Seamus is right . It is, albeit mildly, a part of the same phenomenon. Refusing to watch a game you enjoy purely because you don’t approve of someone ‘taking the knee’ during the anthem is part of the same intolerance that this letter speaks of. It isn’t as bad as actively demanding penalties or punishments for such individuals but it contributes to the cancel culture.

  64. This is preposterous nonsense.

    Individuals do what they want, watch and buy what they want, have always done so, since the beginning of time.

    What is new and unwelcome is the seeking to ruin the careers of, or to deny any platform at all to, those whose views that they don’t agree with.

    That there actually is support for speech denial ( that’s what it is ) in this day and age, including here, disappoints.

  65. It is the same thing. If I don’t want to buy something made by or advertised by a bigot and the company decide to remove that bigot to retain my business then that is perfectly acceptable.

    Clearly you support cancel culture when they cancel people you agree with.

  66. *oppose cancel culture

  67. But Phantom

    you stated that if players took the knee, you would stop watching. That’s the ‘cancel culture’ everyone hates so much. That was you saying that you would make that decision based on the ‘political’ actions of some players.

    Who here supports ‘speech denial?’

  68. Phantom

    People do make choices for what they want to watch all the time but its the reasons that matter. If you are bored with the foorball games and no longer find them entertaining that’s one thing. If you enjoy the football and want to watch it but intentionally stop doing so purely related to an off-game political gesture by a player, then yes you are contributing to an intolerant cancel culture.

  69. I have no objection to players protesting police brutality or any other issue on their own time. But direspecting the national anthem with ritualized behavior if supported by the NFL invokes my right to say no thankee.

  70. And you have that right Mahons. Similarly if a company employs racists or other bigots then should I not have a right to say no thank you?

  71. By the way purely as a tactic it the act of kneeling during the anthem drives away more people who would be aligned with protests against police brutality and gives comfort to guys like Trump who seek to exploit that wedge.

  72. Seamus – yes.

  73. If the NFL doesn’t ban players from disrespecting the national anthem….

    By what? kneeling? Are we not told that kneeling is being submissive? Surely submitting oneself to the NA is the ultimate in respect?

  74. Trumps exploiting it……

    You have a movement by a 3rd rate quaterback to attack the Police by exploiting the platform of the national sport during the national anthem in an act of exploitation to kneel in protest of the police on national tv…… but it’s Trump exploiting the issue…

    you’re an ass

  75. Paul is a lot smarter than he lets on here.

  76. Is he a third rate quarterback because he is not a very good player, or because he ‘took the knee’?

  77. Paul is a lot smarter than he lets on here

    More cryptics Phantom?

    If the taking the knee is a a sign of submission why is it disprectful in the context of the NA?

  78. https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/04/49ers-lose-11th-straight-colin-kaepernick-benched-amid-chicago-snowstorm/

  79. I’ll have to translate all of that into English 🙂

    Does this mean he’s not a good player? Has he always been a bad player? Is he going through a bad patch?

  80. 3rd rate is overstating it. And is typical of the Kaepernick debate. His supporters like to paint him as an elite quarterback, while his opponents make it seem like he can’t throw a ball forward without falling over.

    It is hard to tell how good he’d be now (he hasn’t played in three years) but given most teams have 2-3 quarterbacks means that there are probably 80 NFL quarterbacks at a time. His play in his final season would put him in the top 30 (but not much higher), nevermind the top 80. There are other factors (scheme, locker room distraction, salary demands etc) in addition to the anthem stuff.

    I’d say if Kaepernick hadn’t knelt then he would be playing in the NFL. But if he changed other aspects, while still kneeling, then he’d also be playing in the NFL.

  81. He decided to become a distraction.

    Which takes away from what the team is trying to do – win games.

    Any serious student of the game knows how maniacally focused people like Belichick, Parcells or other coaches are. It’s all consuming. If you take away from focus, you’re out.

    Tim Tebow chose to be a disraction with his kneeling, before Kap, and that didn’t help his career at all. Kapernick decided to become the new Tebow. Both put self before team.

  82. There are other factors. Kaepernick is better than Tebow for a start. And if a truly elite quarterback had started this then they would still be playing. One of the spokesmen for the group of players who effectively forced the NFL’s hand on the issue is Patrick Mahomes. Who just became the NFL’s first half a billion dollar player.

    The idea is that if you are going to be a distraction then you better be good enough to justify. Ben Roethlisberger raped people (most likely), Ray Lewis covered up a murder (most likely) etc… and got away with it because they were really, really good.

  83. What was Tim Tebow kneeling for ?

  84. His lace was untied, but everyone misunderstood his actions.

  85. For Tebow, it was a religious gesture. It was not a protest. He is a born again Christian and good guy.

    He kneeled on the sideline at times, but not during the anthem.

  86. I have never understood why this practice of going down on one knee was seen as disprespecting the anthem. It actually looks more respectful. Like kneeling before the Queen to get a knighthood. I would have thought if Mr Kapaernick had wanted to show protest against the practice of standing for the anthem he would have logically just sat down while it was playing.

  87. It was meant as a disruption, and it was that.

    It was started by a guy who referred to police as pigs, and who admires Castro’s and his represssion.

    Nah, no disrespect at all.

  88. I have never understood why this practice of going down on one knee was seen as disprespecting the anthem. It actually looks more respectful. Like kneeling before the Queen to get a knighthood.

    See my comment above Colm. We are told that bending the knee is a gesture of submission, if that’s the case I can’t think of anything more respectful.

  89. Phantom

    the individual views of this man are irrelevent. Its the gesture and how it looks that I am referring to. It doesn’t look disrespectful to an observer. As Paul says, it actually looks even more respectful than standing. Its a genuflection to the anthem . Mr Kaepernick couldn’t even get his protest gesture right 🙂

  90. Yes, but you can’t look at the gesture without thinking of the man doing it.

    Kaepernick is very disrespectful to the anthem, and to the US as a nation.

    I doubt that most Americans here would disagree.

  91. Yes, but you can’t look at the gesture without thinking of the man doing it.

    AFAIK his ‘admiration’ of Castro was him wearing a tee shirt of a meeting between Malcom X & Castro in 1960?

    Obviously a Commie agitator who hates the US.

  92. He’s also made pro-Castro comments, praising for example the Cuban education system, healthcare system. And then defended, or at least deflected criticism of, Cuban oppression by making comparisons to incarceration in the United States.

  93. Yep.

  94. cant see the fuss either colm
    mature people separate the two, the anthem and the game
    if some choose to address wider issues with a kneel , that’s fine
    then its “whose turn to get the hot-dogs”- relax and enjoy the game

    I can’t believe folks are so overcome by nausea at the kneel they have to leave the stadium
    strikes me as ” seeking to be offended” or ripping the car seats at a drive in movie.

    Folks is strange and quare, so they are .

  95. I can’t understand how something which happens before the game starts and at the side of the field can be ‘a disruption.’ A disruption to what? The national anthem? Did they stop playing it because someone knelt?

  96. i think it says more about fear and conformity on the part of those whose tummies get a lil upset at the sight of a kneel. I’d a friend who was at the opera, and a member of the royal family showed up, you’re expected to stand, they all did except my friend Brian.
    He got back pokes and whispers of shame from those around him .

    The herd don’t like it when someone is different , makes em feel uncomfortable

  97. I am sure that if an athlete started doing the shimmy shake and moonwalk when ” A Soldiers Song ” played before an Ireland international match, you’d all be fine with that.

    Because that’s exactly the type of thing that this is.

    The longstanding pre-game ritual means nothing to you, but it has meaning to others.

  98. Phantom

    You don’t get the point we are making. That you compare it to the shimmy shake or moonwalking shows that.

  99. I understand it very well.

    It is the most intentional, pointed disrespect.

  100. European Comrades – When the National Anthem is played here in the US one stands. One stops moving. Men remove their hats. The playing of it is a time honored ritual at our sporting events. Kneeling is not a genuflection to the anthem. Such an act is viewed by most Americans as disrespectful as if one gave the flag the middle finger.

  101. The purpose of a protest or whatever is to bring others to your side.

    This type of thing did the opposite, served only to polarize.

    If you want to see a great athlete who has long been an effective activist, find out who hall of fame NFL player Jim Brown is, and how he has conduced himself over the years. Very effective actor, who has been involved in many important fights. He is still active, and he does not support what Kapernick has been doing.

  102. “The purpose of a protest or whatever is to bring others to your side.”

    I disagree. The purpose of a protest is to get attention, to disrupt, to make life difficult for those who are blocking the change you want to see.

  103. And that’s why we are where we are, and that’s a small reason why Trump snuck in.

    Congratulations.

  104. So black people should only campaign against racism in a manner that is acceptable to white people?

  105. Sure.

  106. yeah they need their masters approval phantom, now you know why you have a race problem buddy

  107. Taking the knee as a gesture to lost black lives has spread around the world precisely because it looks respectful. That’s the only point I was making. I wasn’t referring to the politics of it just the visuals. Turning his back or sitting down or on the floor would look disrespectful. This doesn’t.

  108. In fact it was seen as more respectful. Colin Kaepernick sat down on the bench during the first three games of the season. But then he spoke to a former NFL player, Nate Boyer, who spent six years in the Army and had multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Boyer advised him that if he couldn’t stand for the anthem then kneeling would be more respectful than sitting.

  109. The topic of the protest doesn’t bother me, it is the nature of his protest. I’d oppose kneeling during the national anthem whatever the topic might be.

  110. Comparing kneeling to the ‘shimmy shake’ is just silly, though this whole thing has deflected from the original point, which was that you not only support, but intend to actually engage in ‘cancel culture.’

  111. Sure, Pat.

  112. Pat? Who is Pat?

  113. probably me…… but what he’s responding to I have no clue….. which I’m sure most of you believe about me on everything….

  114. Who are you

    Who who

  115. Seimi

    Either Phantom is very late in responding to Patrick’s last comment here, or he is sarcastically calling you that name as he considers your 7:52pm to be a very Pat like riposte 🙂

  116. Or Phantom is just drunk 🙂

  117. I wish that I were.

    Anyone got any sour beer?

  118. I believe it was an attempt at sarcasm… someone must have said something I would say

  119. I don’t know I woke up in a Soho doorway though and Policeman knew my name…..

  120. Oh, was it because I mentioned your support for and intention to actually engage in ‘cancel culture’?
    Why would that produce such a response? Its a correct statement, is it not?

  121. Ive got this burning yearning feeling inside me…

  122. Again!? I’m sure the doctor can prescribe the usual cream…

  123. I thought someone might say that.

    Actually I only put that in for the sake of cultural balance, as this is the culture war thread. If Patrick is going to quote a lyric from a bunch of English white men from the 1960s, its only fair I quote from a bunch of 1960’s American black women 🙂

  124. I’m not going to read the thread but I will weigh in on Kaepernick.

    He’s an asshole. A spoiled child that was granted a gift. Enough talent to proball and due to that gift he gained wealth fame and fortune, but no maturity. He remained a punk from the street and has parleyed his hate into greater fame and fortune.

    As for his movement. I have been an Eagles Fan my whole life, but I’ll never watch another NFL game again. Nor let them be shown in my house.

    The Protest is in Favor of Dead Cops and BLM. That’s it’s origin. I figuratively will spit on any company or person that supports them.

  125. Seimi, on July 8th, 2020 at 8:19 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Oh, was it because I mentioned your support for and intention to actually engage in ‘cancel culture’?
    Why would that produce such a response? Its a correct statement, is it not?

    He hates to be called on his bullshit Seimi….. and usually the only one who does it.

  126. I was just following phantoms lead with the who colm

  127. It is amusing that the only ones supporting Kaepernick’s antics here are Europeans who have never attended a US sporting event, and who don’t appear to have much of an idea of what our traditions are or the emotions that come with them.

    If someone acted the clown during the playing of their own anthem at a major sports event, they’d freak out. But when it happens here, they speak about how respectful it’s supposed to be.

    And if you’re not with the program, holler ” racism “. Because it’s fun to say silly things.

    This to some extent is where Fox News / MSNBC has brought us, what passes for debate in 2020.

  128. your anthem is meaningless when you have a President who launders money for Russian Gangsters
    you’re better off playing this until you take your country back

  129. your anthem is meaningless

    Ah, the mask slips.

    Keep talking.

  130. you missed the context phantom: slow down, read, comprehend, reflect, and comment 🙂

  131. Who here has supported him? All we are saying is that to deny yourself the pleasure of any further games, purely because someone did something before the game seems a bit over the top.
    As for ‘acting the clown’, at sporting events, many people ‘disrespect’ national anthems by doing much worse than kneeling down – talking, shouting, jeering etc – people don’t vow to never watch the sport again, because that’s a daft thing to say.
    And I also don’t believe anyone ‘hollered racist’, but carry on. It is, someone once told us, fun to say silly things.

  132. Taking half of Kurt’s sentence out of context is completely disingenuous.

  133. American Sports especially Football is based on the American Brand. Patriotism, the Value of Honor, and Team are part of the product Branding. The Fan Base is built on supporting OUR Team… The Flag, The Anthem, Military Fly Overs are as much of the package as the actual game.

    When the people being paid millions to PLAY that role come out and piss on it…. they aren’t making a political point, they’re pissing on the people watching.

    This is costing them 100s of Millions of lost revenue. You can’t piss on people and then get them to buy your stuff.

  134. NFL revenue has continued to grow. So I don’t know where you have got the suggestion that it has cost the NFL hundreds of millions in lost revenue.

  135. The Fan Base is built on supporting OUR Team… The Flag…

    Ok Patrick, so is Nascar right or wrong to ban the Confederate flag? We know what Trump thinks, so a wild guess is that you think the same?

  136. If you say so Seamus….. they’ve lost over 33% of their viewership and except for certain cities over 60% of overall game attendance.

    If you don’t think that’s lost revenue don’t do your own financial planning.

  137. The NFL has not lost any 33% of viewership or 60% of fans.

    Those would be cataclysmic declines, simply has not happened.

    The only team that I can think of that has bad attendance problems is the LA Chargers, but that is because they left their loyal fans in San Diego for LA, where no one cares about them.

  138. Why do people consistently fail to understand quiet simple explanations as Phantom is doing here.

  139. What city had a 60% drop in attendance?

    And the NFL TV viewership dropped but their share of TV viewership grew, as people are generally watching less TV. A certain amount of the drop has also been caused by shifts to other media. I watch every Colts game. I don’t watch on TV. I watch on GamePass, the NFL streaming service. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

    There is also issues when teams in major media markets play badly, like the two New York teams, Oakland, San Francisco, Chicago. Only one made the playoffs last year, only one the year before, none the year before that.

  140. Chargers attendance

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/250047/average-home-attendance-of-the-san-diego-chargers/

    NFL ratings

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/nfl-tv-ratings-grow-2nd-straight-year-1265564

  141. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

    The NFL remains a money machine.

    No other league touches it.

  142. If a GAA player turned his back on the Irish flag during the national anthem or failed to stand during it for some protest he’d be shunned by family, friends and neighbors.

  143. Even the Protestant GAA players? What about the English GAA players? Or the PSNI GAA teams? Or the immigrants who are increasingly joining GAA teams? Will the new team being started in East Belfast even play the national anthem?

  144. In the Republic of Ireland has a GAA player ever turned his back on the flag or failed to stand during the Irish National anthem?

  145. Of course not.

  146. Good point mahons. Might be winning too 👍

  147. I remember the rather delicious line that women used to protest their rights to determine what happens in their bodies . With ” get your rosaries off our ovaries ” . But I don’t know if any woman’s sport in Ireland has made a gesture at a sports event holding a placard with that written on it .

  148. People of good faith in the US would be willing to support a protest against police brutality that didn’t involve an unnecessary insult to the flag or national anthem. That they won’t abide. Martin Luther King, at far more danger to himself, had no issue with the flag and marched with people carrying it.

  149. So it’s only in the Republic now? Okay. Need any help shifting those goalposts?
    Look, as non-American, we obviously don’t see why this is such an issue to you, and I personally think that vowing to never watch an NFL match again, as Phantom and PaTroll have done, over this gesture is so over the top as to be laughable.
    But hey, it’s their choice. It’ll be interesting to find out in say, 10 years, how they’re doing with that.

  150. You’re right mahons. How about arm bands though .
    A player wearing them during the game ?

  151. Americans don’t like open disrespect to our traditions and symbols any more than Irish or British people like open disrespect to the things that are important to them.

    This isn’t hard for anyone to see, unless their minds are welded shut.

  152. What you see as disrespect is seen by others as making a respectful statement, many of them your fellow Americans. Do these others have minds that are welded shut?

  153. Seimi – I didn’t move the goal posts, I was obviously referring to it happening in the Republic. And your failure to admit what would happen in the Republic if a player did what I suggested is clearly an admission that I am correct.

  154. Kurt – So every player can add his political beliefs to his uniform to serve as a billboard? It strikes me as the wrong place for the message.

  155. You’re correct on the first part. I misread your Republic of Ireland question. Mea Culpa.
    On your actual question – I don’t know, and neither do you, but we can both surmise that it would receive a negative reaction. I still highly doubt that any of the spectators would be so traumatised by the action that they would vow to never watch another match, ever, and spit on anyone who did.

  156. People of good faith in the US would be willing to support a protest against police brutality that didn’t involve an unnecessary insult to the flag or national anthem. That they won’t abide.

    So Mahons, what should the punishment be for burning the flag? Should it be a year in jail as demanded by Trump?

    Or is burning the flag protected by the First Amendment?

  157. https://www.nfl.com/news/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem-0ap3000000691077

    No one on the face of the earth sees this as any respectful statement.

    Not Even Kaepernick.

    It’s openly disrespectful, as said by him four years ago.

    Maybe he’s right, maybe the flag and the country are unworthy of any affection or pride, but there really aren’t two sides to that side of this matter.

    “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. “To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.”

  158. Seimi-people aren’t traumatized by it. And if the GAA didn’t penalize the player and said they wouldn’t play the national anthem then I suspect people might be inclined not to attend. Spitting is a Patrick thing and unrelated to any reasonable discussion.

  159. From Wiki

    In the 49ers’ fourth and final preseason game, Kaepernick kneeled during the U.S. national anthem to show more respect to former and current U.S. military members while still protesting during the anthem after having a conversation with former NFL player and U.S. military veteran Nate Boyer.

  160. Oh Wiki says so, so that settles it.

  161. Peter – I don’t respect people who burn the flag, but it isn’t a criminal offense. There are several EU countries where burning the flag is a crime. I take Bob Hope’s position – if people feel the need to burn the flag then let them, but I wish they would wrap themselves in it first.

  162. Seimi-people aren’t traumatized by it.

    No? Two people on this site have vowed never to watch the sport again. Sounds pretty traumatised to me.

    And if the GAA didn’t penalize the player and said they wouldn’t play the national anthem then I suspect people might be inclined not to attend.

    For kneeling during the national anthem? I doubt it.

  163. People can refuse to patronize something without being traumatized.

    If the GAA took no stand against a player disrespecting the Irish National Anthem I bet many people would boycott.

  164. Patrick has said that he will never watch the sport again.

    Who is is the second person who said that? Can you kindly copy the statement? I’m sure that it can easily be found.

  165. I highly doubt if the GAA would deem a player kneeling down in protest at Irish people being shot as a display of disrespect.

    look, this game of whataboutery is going nowhere. If you want a better comparison – an actual real incident – look at the English Premier League and Championship and James McClean. Every year, in November, McClean, a Derry man who plays for the Republic of Ireland national team, refuses to wear a shirt with a poppy embroidered on it. The reason he has given is his Derry background and the role of the British Army there during the Troubles. 6 of the people killed on Bloody Sunday were from his home estate, the Creggan.
    McClean has said that he would wear the poppy if it only celebrated the fallen of the two world wars, and he has been booed by fans, some from his own club, Sunderland. He has also received Loyalist death threats and hate mail. But no-one, at least no-one has come forward, to say they will never watch a soccer match ever again, and will spit on anyone who does, because of the disrespect he shows for the poppy and the British Army.

  166. I refer to a GAA player who would kneel during the Irish National Anthem and disrespect it’s flag. I offered it to try to assist you in understanding the view of Americans who are critical of that being done here. You are focused on Patrick’s spitting claim which is obviously related to his personal issues.

  167. Alan Mannus (the goalkeeper) caused a storm when he inadvertently didn’t face the flag during the anthem.

  168. People who have never set foot in a US major league football or baseball stadium are refusing to consider that there is another point of view than what they have been told to think by major media there.

    Tomorrow, they will accuse Americans of being insufficiently knowledgeable about some aspect of European history, or insufficiently sensitive about this or that matter over there.

    Please stop reading now, since without an effort to understand, there’s no point to it.

    I’ve been in pubs and other places in rural and urban Ireland when ” The Soldier’s Song ” was played at closing time, etc. Including in the bad old days, when people sang that song, in Irish or English, with real emotion.

    I’ve recalled other times, when the US anthem was played here, esp in times like 9/11, when there was real emotion. I attended the first baseball game in NYC after 9/11 ( Atlanta vs Mets at Shea ) and the moment when the anthem was played was important to all of us, as was that night.

    When you disrespect the US anthem, you disrespect that and a thousand other memories that I have.

    I would never disrespect the Irish or British anthems, one because I would not disrespect any nation’s anthem, and two because I genuinely respect and admire both nations so why would I ever think of doing such a thing.

    But let’s not think of any of that. There is only one point of view. There is no other side to anything.

  169. But let’s not think of any of that. There is only one point of view. There is no other side to anything.

    Yes, that’s the culture wars in a nutshell. Anyone who isn’t 100% signed up to BLM is a racist and anyone who denies that Trans Women are Women (as opposed to adults who menstruate) is a Transphobic bastard. Both of those wrong-thinkers need to “educate themselves” and totally apologise or be cancelled. And to be clear, cancelled does not just mean losing your Twitter account, it means losing your job.

    We are living in an increasingly intolerant culture where the Woke Taliban are sweeping dissent off the airways. This needs to be resisted at every turn.

  170. it gets more ugly and viciously intolerant by the day.

    More and more of us never consider the other side’s position even for a moment.

  171. Woke Taliban. Funny.

  172. The NFL Has Lost 33% of Its Viewers This Season Due to …
    https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2018/01/09/
    Jan 09, 2018 · The NFL Has Lost 33% of Its Viewers This Season Due to Boycotts. Posted at 4:00 pm on January 9, 2018 by Brandon Morse. Share on Facebook. Share on Twitter. … NFL ratings have been sliding downhill like a greased up pig on a muddy slope ever since the kneeling started. Players and coaches alike protested the United States and/or Trump by …

  173. Four NFL teams have lost significant numbers of fans in …
    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/11/
    Jul 11, 2019 · The team led the NFL in average attendance in 2008, with 88,604 fans packing FedEx Field that season. In 2018, Washington averaged 61,028 fans, a decline of 31.1 percent.

    NFL attendance hits a 15-year low – ProFootballTalk
    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/03/
    Jan 03, 2020 · Fifteen teams saw a decline in attendance, led by the Jaguars (8.7 percent drop), Raiders (7.6 percent) and Bengals (7.0 percent). Two teams saw an increase of more than five percent.

  174. I refer to a GAA player who would kneel during the Irish National Anthem and disrespect it’s flag. I offered it to try to assist you in understanding the view of Americans who are critical of that being done here.

    I get that, Mahons, and I offered a real life series of incidents, up to and including death threats against the player, which didn’t end with spectators vowing not to watch the game again.

    Look, I understand that Americans view their national anthem in a very serious and respectful way. We all do, or most of us anyway. The question that I and others have been asking for weeks now, if not months, is what exactly about Kaepernick and others taking the knee that is so offensive that it would cause fans to not watch anymore. The answer we have heard back every time is that it’s ‘not respectful.’ Okay, then I suppose we should leave it at that.

    People who have never set foot in a US major league football or baseball stadium are refusing to consider that there is another point of view than what they have been told to think by major media there.

    Who are these people? People like me, you mean? I’m not ‘refusing’ anything. I’m trying to understand what the issue is. It’s disrespectful to the national anthem to go down on one knee? Understood.

    Tomorrow, they will accuse Americans of being insufficiently knowledgeable about some aspect of European history, or insufficiently sensitive about this or that matter over there.

    You’re quite annoyed, aren’t you? Who are ‘they’? Me again? I will tell you – not accuse you – tell you, if your knowledge is insufficient, but I can’t make you be any more or less sensitive about ‘this’ or, indeed ‘that.’ Your feelings are your own.

    Please stop reading now, since without an effort to understand, there’s no point to it.

    Scrub that. You’re really annoyed. I couldn’t help myself. I read on.

    When you disrespect the US anthem, you disrespect that and a thousand other memories that I have.

    Understood. I would feel the same way if someone willingly disrespected my national anthem.

    I would never disrespect the Irish or British anthems, one because I would not disrespect any nation’s anthem, and two because I genuinely respect and admire both nations so why would I ever think of doing such a thing.

    Has anyone here disrespected the US national anthem? I certainly haven’t.

    But let’s not think of any of that. There is only one point of view. There is no other side to anything.

    You love making this type of meaningless, sweeping, untrue statement. People ask questions in order to acquire knowledge. Much of the time that knowledge is from ‘the other side.’ It is ‘a different view.’

    Anyone who isn’t 100% signed up to BLM is a racist and anyone who denies that Trans Women are Women (as opposed to adults who menstruate) is a Transphobic bastard.

    I disagree, Peter. I’m not 100% onboard with everything BLM do, but I am 100% not a racist. My feelings and thoughts on trans, I will keep to myself for now.

    Both of those wrong-thinkers need to “educate themselves” and totally apologise or be cancelled. And to be clear, cancelled does not just mean losing your Twitter account, it means losing your job.

    You mean people who are BLM supporters and people who support the Trans community? They should lose their jobs? If that’s not what you mean, I apologise for misunderstanding. Could you explain again?

    We are living in an increasingly intolerant culture where the Woke Taliban are sweeping dissent off the airways. This needs to be resisted at every turn.

    Isn’t your statement above a good example of that very same intolerance? Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

    it gets more ugly and viciously intolerant by the day.

    More and more of us never consider the other side’s position even for a moment.

    I’m glad you include yourself in that statement. We should all try and see the other side’s position. unforunately, we are human, and love to argue.

    Anyway, I’m off to bed. Good night.

  175. couldn’t find the 60% one again Phantom, but it’s out there.

    There seems to be a bit of confusion or double interpretation of my spit on comment and my I will never watch the game again statement.

    Kneeling during the Anthem they are spitting on the Fans and that is how the Fans and even nonfans but patriots are feeling about it. Disrespecting the Flag and the Anthem in this country for any reason at the wrong moment can get your teeth knocked out in the most varied of crowds.

    Charlie Daniels summed it up well with these very accurate words about American Patriotism.

    From The Sound up in Long Island
    Out to San Francisco Bay
    And everthing that’s in between them
    Is our own
    And we may have done a little bit
    Of fightin’ amongst ourselves
    But you outside people best leave us
    alone
    ‘Cause we’ll all stick together
    And you can take that to the bank
    That’s the cowboys and the hippies
    And the rebels and and the yanks
    You just go and lay your hand
    On a Pittsburgh Steelers’ fan
    And I think you’re gonna finally
    understand

    Now why I will never watch another game again nor allow one to played in my house and won’t drink or eat in a bar or restaurant that has football on the TV.

    The NFL has not only bent the knee but they are now endorsing BLM whose stated goal is the death of cops.

    Mahons nailed it perfectly. It’s a personal issue. They’re supporting people that are calling for the death of MY FAMILY.

    I take it very personal and very serious.

  176. As for ACTBLUe Donations to BLM Are Funneled Through Democrat Related ActBlue and Handled by Organization Led By Susan Rosenberg who sits on their board……

    Do me a favor look up who Susan Rosenberg is.

  177. endorsing BLM whose stated goal is the death of cops.

    got a link to that pat ? or is it all in the mind ?. Maybe Levin said it, so its true ?

  178. “Donations to BLM Are Funneled Through Democrat Related ActBlue and Handled by Organization Led By Susan Rosenberg who sits on their board……”

    No they aren’t. A development charity, Thousand Currents, was hired to help develop Black Lives Matter’s administrative capabilities and organisation. Susan Rosenberg is a vice chair of Thousand Currents.

    But I guess this does mean you are going back to the well of this all being orchestrated by Jews.

  179. He’s also made pro-Castro comments

    I think he’s praised some of Castro’s achievements regarding the Cuban medical and education systems, (similar to what Pres Obama did). Is it possible to recognise achievement without agreeing with the person who achieved it? In fact, just the other day Phantom himself said something akin to disagreeing with Bruce Springsteen on many things but enjoying the music he produced.

    It seems that there’s a clear split between the Yanks and the Euros on this issue. We’re told that standing silently for the NA is part of the American tradition. I’d be very surprised if people watching a football match at home or in bars stood silently for the NA, are they being disrespectful too?

    As said above, (and seemingly corroborated by Iraqi and Afghanistan war veteran Nate Boyer), IMO kneeling for the NA isn’t not only disrespectful, it’s more respectful than standing. And no, I wouldn’t have any problems with a GAA player doing the same thing to Amhrán na bhFiann.

  180. “I’d be very surprised if people watching a football match at home or in bars stood silently for the NA, are they being disrespectful too?”

    In fact at his (taxpayer funded) Super Bowl party footage has emerged of Donald Trump mocking the US anthem. I take it Patrick, who won’t watch the NFL due to people disrespecting the anthem, won’t vote for Donald Trump for doing the same?

    “As said above, (and seemingly corroborated by Iraqi and Afghanistan war veteran Nate Boyer), IMO kneeling for the NA isn’t not only disrespectful, it’s more respectful than standing.”

    To be fair he didn’t say it was more respectful than standing, he said it was more respectful than sitting.

    “I think he’s praised some of Castro’s achievements regarding the Cuban medical and education systems, (similar to what Pres Obama did). Is it possible to recognise achievement without agreeing with the person who achieved it?”

    I think it depends on context. If your comments, and only comments, on the Nazis is that they built really good roads and had a top notch train system then people can draw a conclusion on that.

    And he went further than praising the good parts of the Cuban system. He deflected the bad parts by making stupid comparisons to the United States.

  181. To be fair he didn’t say it was more respectful than standing, he said it was more respectful than sitting

    Yep, which is why I qualified it with IMO

    I think it depends on context

    I agree but am not sure about the Nazi analogy. It’s widely accepted that Leni Riefenstahl made some magnificent cinematic propaganda without accepting the purpose of it.

    He deflected the bad parts by making stupid comparisons to the United States.

    I don’t know what the comparisons were and am not really that interested in finding them but possibly a ‘remove the beam from your own eye’ comment?

    And just to make things crystal before any of the Yanks swoop in, I think Castro was an undemocratic dictator.

  182. He was read out the crimes of the Castro regime and his response was the United States does all of those things too.

  183. Yes, as I speculated, a ‘remove the beam from your own eye’ comment?

  184. Not really. More ‘I can’t be bothered to address the issue so I’m going to through out silly whataboutery’. He wasn’t making a valid comparison. And because of that he wasn’t properly acknowledging the crimes of the Castro regime. If the crimes of the Castro regime are no different or worse than any western country then they aren’t really that bad.

  185. Seamus, please stop talking bollocks in your first sentence.

    Look, I’m speculating as are you. He praised aspects of the Castro regime and got hit with a ‘but whatabout’ and gave a ‘but whatabout’ back. That’s what happened.

  186. Except asking someone about the crimes of the Castro regime when they are praising the Castro regime isn’t a whatabout. It is a legitimate question. Deflecting criticism of the Castro regime with comparisons (silly unfounded comparisons at that) to other places is a whatabout.

  187. Like Obama Iunderstand he praised aspects of the Castro regime, got a ‘whatabout’ (legitimate or not) and gave a whatabout’ back.

    Phantom’s original claim was that he praised Castro. I’m not sure he did.

  188. I think it is a perfectly acceptable response to someone praising aspects of the regimes of Castro, or Hitler, or Mao, or Stalin, or Pinochet to ask them about the crimes of those regimes.

    I think the honest, mature reaction would have been to accept that and qualify your praise. That is what the likes of Sanders did. It isn’t what the likes of Kaepernick did.

  189. Ideally yes, but he didn’t and I’m still not sure that what he did do amounts to praise of Castro and really would prefer not to be drawn into a protracted, ultimately non conclusive discussion on speculative inference just for argument’s sake.

  190. To get back to the original discussion about the culture wars and the intolerance of the cancel culture phenomenon – the problem is that everyone thinks the other side is unjustifiably intolerant and censorious and they are not. Here on this thread I would guess Phantom Mahons and Patrick would be supportive of the letter that was published this week decrying the liberal cancel culture and ‘Woke Taliban’ crusades which are coursing through social media and public life, yet they will not admit that their intolerant attitudes to the ‘knee taking’ and other radical gestures by Kapaernick and others is not the same – but yes it is.

    If any individual American wants to stand for the anthem and salute the flag and recite the pledge of allegiance, do so proudly because you genuinely feel you want to. However, when you start insisting other Americans must do so to or regard it as a problem that needs to be dealt with when others don’t then yes you are engaging in the same sphere of political intolerance that you decry the radical left activists of doing.

  191. in the bigger picture yes colm the intolerance is matched on both sides

  192. The left and the black racists Are engaging in violence, Are destroying property, Are beating people up, Are demonstrating in front of peoples houses in order to terrorize their young children, And are seeking to get people fired For expressing opinions.

    There is nothing remotely equivalent coming from so-called conservatives.

    I guess that these days, a conservative is somebody who doesn’t believe him vandalism, assault, And firing people for the crime of expressing unpopular opinions

  193. You support firing people for unpopular opinions. You have said you won’t watch the NFL if people kneel. That is you saying to the NFL that if they value your business then they should prevent kneeling or fire those who do kneel.

    Also where are “the left” engaging in violence or destroying property?

  194. There is nothing remotely equivalent coming from so-called conservatives

    Perhaps but when you expand those ‘conservatives’ out to include the right and white racists, (as you have done with the left above), the picture becomes a bit clearer:

    The United States faces a growing terrorism problem that will likely worsen over the next year. Based on a CSIS data set of terrorist incidents, the most significant threat likely comes from white supremacists, though anarchists and religious extremists inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda could present a potential threat as well.

    https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states

  195. Phantom

    You are becoming as sweeping and ridiculous in extremis as Patrick does in his responses.

    If I say stealing a pint of milk is a crime and I say stabbing someone to death is a crime, does that mean I am saying the milk theft is as bad as murder ?

  196. phantom buddy on a whole host of issues from BLM to Policing to Islam to Immigration to this issue you take the Trumpers position.
    I’m glad in a way you have finally “come out” as a Trumper
    At least we know what we’re dealing with, you’re not on the Left buddy , that is for sure .

  197. You are doubling down on a long series of foolish comments. You probably should consider moving to Philadelphia, Where others don’t know what words mean either

    I have never expressed support for firing Or not hiring anyone here

    And virtually 100% of the violence against persons and property in recent months have Have a heavy left involvement, including statue destruction mobs. Left politicians Including Maxine Waters, have sought to justify the riots and looting Now and in the past incidents

    The four persons arrested for a fire bombings in New York City recently were all leftists . They have a long paper trail., Including the woman lawyer Rahman from Brooklyn

  198. Paul – he isn’t kneeling out of respect for the national anthem, you are torturing logic.

    Seamus – Colin could have voiced opinions about police brutality until the cows come home, and marched against it or otherwise demonstrated outside of the game. But his political behavior was during the pregame ritual when he was at work and his employer does not have to accommodate that behavior.

  199. correction phantom disagrees with Trump about the mask, buts thats the only issue of disagreement ..

  200. Colm

    I have heard major Democrat Politicians justifying race riots, going as far back as the Los Angeles Rodney King riots

    I have repeatedly mentioned that the racial arsonist Sharpton is a major respected figure in the Democratic Party who I saw on MSNBC this morning Interviewing the governor of Maryland

    None of the major mob violence comes from the right here, All Of it it comes from the left

    You can’t fix it if you never speak the truth about it

  201. Mahons

    The hostility to Kapaernick is not because he is flouting workplace rules, but because he is failing to obey the unwritten expectation that every American must show respect for and stand during the anthem. No other position is allowed. It is albeit a milder version of the narrow liberal political orthodoxy that refuses to tolerate dissent from accepted ‘diversity’ narratives.

  202. Colm

    You’re allowed to disagree with somebody in this country

    The fact that you do so is not remotely the same as trying to get them fired , Beating them up, threatening their children, Destroying their property, which is what the leftist mobs have done time after time

  203. Kurt – Phantom has consistently and effectively been critical of Trump on a wide range of issues. You completely wrong to say otherwise. And therein lies the problem, unless one is lockstep with the Left some people (yourself apparently) deem them the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

  204. “But his political behavior was during the pregame ritual when he was at work and his employer does not have to accommodate that behavior.”

    I agree. I believe that the NFL should have the right to not hire Colin Kaepernick because he hurts their business. I also agree that other businesses should have the right to not hire, or to fire, racists and transphobes who hurt their business.

    “I have heard major Democrat Politicians justifying race riots, going as far back as the Los Angeles Rodney King riots”

    Please name them. The honourable member for Philadelphia took a swing at this and struck out every time.

  205. None of the major mob violence comes from the right here, All Of it it comes from the left

    You are unlikely to protest if you are happy with the status quo. Perhaps you should be asking why the left are unhappy, rather than complaining that they are unhappy.

    You can’t fix it if you never speak the truth about it

    Yes, the whole truth about it.

    More and more of us never consider the other side’s position even for a moment.

    Somebody wrote this just last night.

  206. Phantom

    You don’t get the point I am making. At no point have I equated in severity the differing behaviours from both sides. I have stated that both are – to different degrees – a form of cancel culture and they are .

    If you and Patrick won’t watch a football game because you disagree with a gesture made by a player before the match then you are doing the same thing as someone on the left who won’t buy or watch ‘Harry Potter books/films anymore because JK Rowling has expressed a dissenting view on Transgender issues.

  207. Com – you are spectacularly wrong. We have a long history of outspoken athletes on a wide range of issues. CK chose to take his employer’s pay and on their time (when he would get the most attention) disrespect the national anthem

  208. So if an NFL player regularly, on his own time, burned an American flag then it would be wrong for his NFL team to fire him or another to refuse to hire him?

  209. I won’t refuse to watch a football game because of Kaepernick’s opinion. I will refuse to watch it If the game and the broadcast includes political hijinks That I care not to watch.

    For all of human history, people have made similar choices. This has exactly nothing to do with cancel culture

    I’ve spoken Personally with people whose views are not much different from those of Kaepernick, am friends with people who support Castroism in Cuba

  210. Mahons

    I am not wrong because I am not saying what you claim. In all my comments here I have said nothing about his employers or his contractual terms. I am referring to political attitudes and behaviours of individuals left and right in respect of how they react to the views and expressions of public figures. You and Phantom seem to be wilfully misrepresenting what I am saying so I can’t really explain any more than I have.

  211. Congresswoman Maxine Waters for one, she has said the use of the word rioting is racist.

  212. No they aren’t. A development charity, Thousand Currents, was hired to help develop Black Lives Matter’s administrative capabilities and organisation. Susan Rosenberg is a vice chair of Thousand Currents.

    ACTBLUE handles the money and it’s funneled through to Thousand Currents and is controlled by Susan Rosenberg runs that.

    Do you really think the fact that she’s a jew matters to me…..

    Susan Rosenberg is a cop killing terrorist.

    Susan Lisa Rosenberg (born 1955) is a convicted terrorist, activist, writer, ex-convict and advocate for social justice and prisoners’ rights. From the late 1970s into the mid-1980s, Rosenberg was active in the far-left revolutionary terrorist May 19th Communist Organization, which engaged in bombings of buildings and provided support to the Black Liberation Army.[1] After living as a fugitive for two years, she was arrested in 1984 while in possession of explosives and firearms. She had also been sought as an accomplice in the 1979 prison escape of Assata Shakur and was suspected but never charged in the 1981 Brink’s robbery that led to the death of a guard and two Nyack police officers (Officer Brown and Officer O’Grady).[2]

    Rosenberg was sentenced to 58 years in prison on the weapons and explosives charges. She spent 16 years in prison, during which she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. Her sentence was commuted by President Bill Clinton on January 20, 2001, his final day in office.[3][4]

  213. Seamus – players sign contracts that often have image and behavior clauses. The burning of a flag might run counter to that.

  214. Maxine Waters sure. How major a Democrat she is is questionable. She did pretty much accuse Barack Obama of being anti-black.

  215. And virtually 100% of the violence against persons and property in recent months have Have a heavy left involvement, including statue destruction mobs. Left politicians Including Maxine Waters, have sought to justify the riots and looting Now and in the past incidents […]

    None of the major mob violence comes from the right here, All Of it it comes from the left

    So we have yet qualified violence in recent months and major mob violence, yet:

    First, far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.

    Which is quietly ignored.

  216. “Seamus – players sign contracts that often have image and behavior clauses. The burning of a flag might run counter to that.”

    I’m not speaking of contractual issues. I’m talking about morality, for example similar to other employers sacking workers etc… for controversial political statements.

  217. Paul – he isn’t kneeling out of respect for the national anthem, you are torturing logic

    I don’t know if I am Mahons, I’m saying I find the gesture far from disrespectful. Surely the way to disrespect the NA would be to sit when everyone is standing?

  218. Who has quietly ignored right wing terrorist acts other than some of the right wingers here. Phantom is correct in that the majority of the violence resulting from these protests have come from left wing agitators, with some lunatic counter violence from the right.

  219. Phantom

    You aren’t being asked to watch something extra. If the anthem is played before the game then the duration of that part of the broadcast is the same regardless of whether all players are standing or not. You are effectively insisting that all players must be standing in respect or you won’t watch it and the following match. Of course you have every right to refuse to watch it if one of the players is kneeling but however much you may deny it, you are then engaging in a very mild (yes just to make clear before I am accused wrongly, its not the same as burning and looting) form of political cancel culture intolerance.

  220. “ACTBLUE handles the money and it’s funneled through to Thousand Currents and is controlled by Susan Rosenberg runs that.”

    Have you any evidence that it goes through Thousand Currents?

    Also Susan Rosenberg is the vice chair of Thousand Currents. So she is hardly “controlling” it. Unless she is (((controlling))) it.

    “Do you really think the fact that she’s a jew matters to me…..”

    Well considering your previous stance on the Black Lives Matter movement was that Jew paid money to another Jew, who worked for third Jew, to pay rioters so they could overthrow the system and create one world Jew government, then I think it is a fair assumption that her being Jewish matters to you.

  221. The objection isn’t merely to those participating in the disrespect to the Anthem but in the NFL not penalizing the behavior.

  222. I didn’t see Patrick making that argument. He constantly makes absurd claims but I don’t recall that his attack was in the nature of what you’ve indicated.

  223. Who has quietly ignored right wing terrorist acts other than some of the right wingers here.

    Those who have quietly ignored the CSIS link above and chosen to comment on left wing violence only.

    Phantom is correct in that the majority of the violence resulting from these protests have come from left wing agitators, with some lunatic counter violence from the right.

    Not according to this:

    Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.

    He’s not.

  224. Mahons what i detect is increasing fear/hostility being peddled in the USA , and its playing out badly , bringing the country closer to civil war than ever before. The prime stoker is of course Trump, but I’ve noticed more moderate people on this forum lurching to the Right
    which is exactly the programme, and exactly what “they” want you to think . I just find it sad how easy it is to brainwash the masses and get them all worked up , offering more and more FEAR . Peeps are feeding off this eating chicken buckets .
    Its a program , that needs deprogramming .

  225. He argued, or posted the tweets of someone who argued, that a Jewish man who worked for Bernie Sanders (another Jewish man), paid money to fund riots, money that he got from George Soros (another Jewish man), in order to establish a New World Order (an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory about a single global government run by Jews).

  226. Patrick would have no desire to imply any sort of Jewish conspiracies in any post he puts up here but you can bet Allan will be triggered by mention of a name like Susan Rosenburg 🙂

  227. It was not the right that threw fire bombs over the past months, or who destroyed many small businesses.

    This was the major political violence and all or nearly all of it was done by the left.

    ( And many of the left, including in print, in publications like The Nation, take full ownership of it. It’s only here where you get trial lawyer like comments minimizing any left involvement or saying that Kaepernick was only being respectful, comments almost too stupid to respond to )

  228. Patrick has done a shocking lack of independent thinking as of late. Most of his comments and posts are rehashes of other people’s arguments, a lot of them from far-right conspiracy theory types.

    I’m not saying Patrick is anti-Semitic. But a lot of the people he listens to are. Qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent.

  229. Except it was not done by “the left”. It was done by people on the left. There is a distinction. Unless you are suggesting that “the right” are responsible for every act by someone on the right. Is Charles responsible for the guy who murdered a load of people in El Paso? Because I seem to remember him condemning him. But they are all of “the right”.

  230. It was not the right that threw fire bombs over the past months, or who destroyed many small businesses.

    This was the major political violence and all or nearly all of it was done by the left

    Yes, but it was the right who were plotting to bomb and ramming protestors with cars:

    On June 3, 2020, federal authorities arrested three individuals allegedly associated with the “boogaloo” movement, a loosely-organized group of extremists preparing for a civil war, for conspiring to cause violence in Las Vegas and possessing an improvised incendiary device.1 Less than a week later, law enforcement officials near Richmond, VA, arrested Harry H. Rogers, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, for driving a vehicle into peaceful protesters

    Ignored.

    Comments almost too stupid to respond to

    You’re so clever. We stand in awe at your intellectual ability.

  231. Charles isn’t ” right ” in my opinion. He would be slightly to the right of dead center, an entirely different thing.

    I know of no right wing politicians or publications that justified that shooting in any way.

    The riots lootings, store burnings, assaults, intimidations in front of homes in many places, are widespread and coordinated.

    Much of this has been justified or minimized in left publications such as the Nation and Mother Jones, and on MSNBC and CNN. And it has been minimized by many Democratic politicians on TV and radio that in my hearing.

    It is 99.9% on the left. Most of whom will happily take ownership of it. Only here do people try to pretend that its not true.

  232. It is 99.9% on the left. Most of whom will happily take ownership of it. Only here do people try to pretend that its not true.

    Here and in the CSIS article above.

  233. “I know of no right wing politicians or publications that justified that shooting in any way.”

    But the do justify the rationale underlying it. The did the whole immigrant invasion bollocks for years (as did you). The Donald laughed and joked about shooting immigrants.

    And some politicians did. Paul Nehlen, a former Republican candidate for Congress, praised the shootings. A number of far-right, Daily Stormer type publications supported it. If we are using the far left fringes to label the left then let’s use the far right fringes to label the right.

  234. Charles might actually be slightly left of dead center by US standards, as he supports universal health care, while “the right ” here stupidly opposes it.

  235. Are you flailing about for an argument so much now that a pro-wall, anti-immigration, anti-free trade Trump voter is now “left of centre”? You are going full Patrick on this thread. Anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan is a commie.

  236. Seamus

    You are making no sense at all.

    You continue to make arguments that are so foolish that you clearly could never believe them yourself.

  237. No I’m disagreeing with you and you don’t have answer. At least man up and admit it.

  238. phantom your 2:05 is straight from the Trump playbook, and its not true, its just whipped up hotch-potch , stoking and playing on people’s fear . shame on you.

  239. If we are using the far left fringes to label the left then let’s use the far right fringes to label the right

    Nope, it’s clearly far left anarchists and black racists on one side and ‘conservatives’ on the other. Pete Moore told him.

  240. More attacks on people, property & the democratic process from ‘the left’

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/labour-dawn-butler-brent-central-constituency-office-willesden-a4492636.html?fbclid=IwAR3BO24EkN6o5xFFTUJympseQy8LZGDZYwNPLjV-9cn2jljmjbRFUPBFgTE

  241. phantom is prepare to peddle half-truths and lies as he can’t make his mind up where he stands these days. Like I said before best thing a man can do is go to a trump rally or a BLM rally you’ll find out where you belong . there will be clues and you can also do that unthinkable thing in USA – actually talk to people,ask questions , have a convo, don’t be afraid !

  242. Paul – the overwhelming violence in relation to the rioting her has been by people on the Left (Seamus correctly qualified that). I think that is apart from domestic terrorist type activity in which there certainly have been right wing lunatics.

  243. Kurt I’m fairly certain Phantom speaks to more Americans in a week than you have in your lifetime. The choice isn’t between Trump and BLM. One can be critical of both.

  244. Most here and most generally have completely condemned all terrorist and lesser violence by the right, with no weasel words of any kind.

    The same is not true at all as respects violence by the left

  245. Patrick can be criticized for many things but I don’t see any intentional antisemitism on his part and he remains the most prominent right winger on the site to denounce antisemitism when it appears here.

  246. What left wing violence have we not condemned? Or what left wing violence have people here condemned but only with weasel words?

  247. “Patrick can be criticized for many things but I don’t see any intentional antisemitism on his part and he remains the most prominent right winger on the site to denounce antisemitism when it appears here.”

    I don’t think he is intentionally anti-Semitic. But a lot of the people he listens to, a lot of the people he parrots etc… are anti-Semitic.

  248. Paul – the overwhelming violence in relation to the rioting her has been by people on the Left

    So, it’s only specific kinds of violence that should be commented on while other types of violence can be quietly ignored?

    The same is not true at all as respects violence by the left

    Would you like to give specifics on that?

  249. mahons that’s a mis-read I’m saying attending a Trump rally or a BLM rally will clue you up more as to where you belong, not that you have to be one of the other.

    Ofc you can criticise both , just saying phantom is displaying signs of being completely lost in a bewildered sea of outrage.
    A man needs to get a grip and a sense of proportion to all of this , and that means holding firm not throwing out deeply held view just cos a few loopers on the left are upping the ante. The world isn’t going to end. we’re talking a very tiny minority.
    The vast majority of the Left are well behaved , peaceful law abiding but lets not focus on that, lets get all hysterical about a few loopers .

    To focus on the .1% and blow it up all out of proportion n is deranged thinking do you agree ?

  250. Kaepernick was only being respectful,

    Phantom – Nobody here said that.

  251. Actually Colm it was said above that kneeling was more respectful.

  252. colm ,

    Phantom – Nobody here said that.

    half-truths and lies, its from the playbook of so many like petem
    its a signal , a warning sign , a danger sign when someone starts losing their shit
    It never ends well .. It just gets worse.
    Mahons you should take him out for a beer! and have a lil chat mate

  253. You want to make the comparison of rightworld violence vs left world violence.

    We have not seen rightworld violence in the US since the Civil War.

    The left as part of their party playbook have always used riots and violence. I can point to 100s of Democrat endorsed and as is the case NOW with both BLM and Antifa democrat Organized & financed Violence.

    The right for the past 150yrs have not. We implicitly hold the threat of violence as an arrow in our quiver but it is never used.

    Now you’re going to point to McVeigh and other rightwing loons but they are outliers not supported by the Right as a whole. Just as Susan Lisa Rosenberg a person that planted bombs and killed cops is also an outlier, and actions were not endorsed by the whole.

    What is happening now is BLM/Antifa is being funded by the democrat machine to riot to advance the Democrat Party Political Agenda. For an equivalent on the right you would have to have the NRA leading riots. And that has never and will never happen.

    What the right will do is VOTE and try and change the system by the rules.

    But understand the one thing that every American knows and understands, the RIGHT do own all the LEGAL guns. That fact is our wall.

    That fact is the line that no one will breach. They can dance around playing with the second amendment but they will never remove it, they will never attempt a confiscation.

    Now when I say this Seamus and others will say I am making a threat, but I’m not. I am stating self defense.

    For the Right to act with violence it will only be in self defense. It will be organized and done as a reaction not an action. The left will cross a line that starts it we won’t, but we will finish it.

    That would be the worst day in American history.

    The Democrat Party has engaged in a campaign of violence and intimidation as their election strategy. I believe it will fail. The Polls all say different so we shall see won’t we.

    But the RNC is not funding and organizing any violence, the DNC is.

  254. The rioting and vandalism is not by a few. And the goals of the BLM and affiliated entities extend well beyond police reform.

  255. Paul -yes. When we are talking about violence related to the rioting that is where I think the focus of the discussion should be.

  256. Kaepernick was only being respectful,

    Sometimes it’s okay to not be “respectful.” MLK was not “respectful”, despite the revisionism. Nor was X.

  257. McVeigh was a right wing terrorist.

    Se we have seen right wing terrorism. More than that also.

    And the armed protesters in Michigan and other places are clearly right wing oriented terrorists, who will shoot innocent people if they don’t get their way.

  258. And of course Patrick can be counted on to introduce absurd claims to the discussion.

  259. King actually was respectful.

    Militant, confrontational, but respectful.

    And hugely disciplined, and nonviolent, which made him 100 times more effective.

  260. I don’t think he is intentionally anti-Semitic. But a lot of the people he listens to, a lot of the people he parrots etc… are anti-Semitic.

    Name them please……

    Considering that if you are going to accuse me of parroting anti-semites the two number one shows that I listen to almost everyday are Limbaugh and Levin….. one happens to be Jew, and not a self hating one.

    So please name my anti-semitic sources.

  261. an absurd claim Mahons is that I’m an anti-semite.

  262. I see no anti semitism in him, intentional or not.

    The accusations are entirely bogus.

  263. “So please name my anti-semitic sources.”

    Are you saying you didn’t put a thread up here on ATW, with a tweet from a guy saying:

    that a Jewish man who worked for Bernie Sanders (another Jewish man), paid money to fund riots, money that he got from George Soros (another Jewish man), in order to establish a New World Order (an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory about a single global government run by Jews).

    Are you saying you don’t parrot the Cultural Marxist anti-Semitic conspiracy theory?

  264. No one is challenging CK’s right to be disrespectful on his own dime. King became a national icon by insisting that the nation live up to its ideals and recognizing the strategy of advocating accordingly. Malcolm X was a two bit pimp who many people confuse with Denzel Washington.

  265. And the armed protesters in Michigan and other places are clearly right wing oriented terrorists, who will shoot innocent people if they don’t get their way.

    Who did they shoot?

    What businesses did they Burn?

    What businesses did they loot?

  266. Seamus the FACT that a man who worked for bernie sanders was funneling money to rioters is True.

    The only person to bring in the JEW angle is you and Allan…. (good company)

  267. Are you saying the tweet didn’t also include references to George Soros and the NWO?

  268. Patrick is a bull (shitter) in a China Shop, evoking the most ludicrous claims of several right wing media folks as regards politics. He can be oafish, unnecessarily antagonistic, and unwilling to acknowledge plain factual error. But he is not an antisemite by any stretch of the imagination.

  269. “But he is not an antisemite by any stretch of the imagination.”

    But a lot of his fellow travelers are.

  270. You are becoming a good little democrat drone Seamus.

    When you have no facts to stand on call the person a racist… goodboy

  271. Thank you Mahons.

    and I mean that.

  272. As far as my memory serves he is the only right winger on this site to challenge Allan’s antisemitism. The others don’t comment (disgracefuuly) or enable Aberdeen’s Quisling.

  273. If you don’t want to be called anti-Semitic then don’t post anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

  274. Seamus,

    //But a lot of his fellow travelers are.//

    Seamus, what point are you actually trying to make here?

    Patrick can agree with some of the political views of other people, but not their anti-semitism.

  275. Mahons

    In all accuracy two separate things were said about the ‘respectability’ of Kapaernick’s gesture. One, made by myself and some others was that we thought going down on one knee looked to us visually like a respectful gesture – and two the point made by Seamus was that someone else had advised Mr Kapaernick that sitting down was more disrespectful than the kneeling gesture so it was a matter of how disrespectful he wanted to be. Nobody here said that he took the knee with the intention of being respectful.

  276. That if he posts those anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on ATW then he is open to criticism on them, even if they come from other people.

  277. Gentlemen who is the first to get a post up on the supreme courts decision

    Supreme Court rules Trump must turn over tax records to New York prosecutors

    On Thursday, the Supreme Court upheld a subpoena issued by New York prosecutors to access President Trump’s tax records. In doing so, the decision rejects Trump’s assertion that sitting presidents should be exempt from criminal investigations while in office. Both of Trump’s SCOTUS appointees, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, ruled against him.

    He’s having a meltdown on twitter ( quelle suprise !)
    mistakenly saying no other president has had this happen to him
    He forgot about Nixon

    Full blown berserk meltdown going on .. rage machine in overdrive .. insane !

  278. Colm- it was argued above that it was more respectful than standing. Incidently, he did all this after no longer being a starting player. When he was a starter he didn’t do this, and as far as I recall didn’t mention the subject.

  279. Patrick has named some individuals who he believes are funding insurrectionst activities who happen to also be Jewish. That is different from specifically naming people and stating they are involved in nefarious activities BECAUSE they are Jewish which is what Allan does.

    BTW – Patrick. There is no such thing as a self-hating Jew.

  280. I don’t believe he posted antisemitic conspiracy theories with the intent to be antisenitic. Certainly one can point out the issues with utilizing those references.

  281. Colm- it was argued above that it was more respectful than standing.

    No it wasn’t.

  282. Actually Colm it was said above that kneeling was more respectful

    Actually it wasn’t. An explanation was given as to how kneeling for the NA could be seen to be more respectful than standing for it.

    When we are talking about violence related to the rioting that is where I think the focus of the discussion should be.

    Do you? Well, I don’t. I think that if you’re going to talk about violence then all violence needs to be included in the discussion. Particularly when the violence is being blamed on one group when in fact the majority of violence originates from another group.

  283. “Patrick has named some individuals who he believes are funding insurrectionst activities who happen to also be Jewish.”

    And also that they are doing it in support of the New World Order. Now unless he means the WCW wrestling stable then he means the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of a one world global Jewish government.

  284. “I don’t believe he posted antisemitic conspiracy theories with the intent to be antisenitic. Certainly one can point out the issues with utilizing those references.”

    I agree. As I said I’m not saying Patrick is anti-Semitic. But a lot of his fellow travellers are.

  285. Seamus,

    That if he posts those anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on ATW then he is open to criticism on them, even if they come from other people.

    Did Patrick actually post anti-semitic conspiracy theories, or did he post conspiracy theories from people who are anti-semitic?

  286. But we are talking about violence as it relates to the protests. If you want to expand the discussion beyond the discussion no one can stop you.
    No explanation was given. An excuse that kneeling could be seen as more respectful. By whom? Are you under the impression CK wanted to be more respectful. It is directly contrary to his words.

  287. Good point Dave.

  288. “Did Patrick actually post anti-semitic conspiracy theories, or did he post conspiracy theories from people who are anti-semitic?”

    He posted a tweet as a post here from another person where that person used an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

  289. Com – if that is the case we’d agree that CK wasn’t trying to assume the most respectful option. Can we eliminate that from the discussion and agree his action was intended to be disrepectful? Can we take him at his own word?

  290. But we are talking about violence as it relates to the protests

    I know. As I’ve repeatedly said above, you are talking about selective violence abd ignoring other more major forms of violence.

    If you want to expand the discussion beyond the discussion no one can stop you.

    Which is what I’ve been doing.

    No explanation was given. An excuse that kneeling could be seen as more respectful

    It was, above regarding being told that bowing a knee is submissive.

  291. He completely despises the country itself, it’s government, it’s history.

    As backed up by his own words and actions.

    But the too cute by half people pretend not to know that, and go into a rage when it’s brought up.

    This is very much like Allan pretending that there was no intentional holocaust.

    Multiple people here are at war with the facts.

    I have much less of a problem with Kappy than I do with those who are fakes phonies and frauds around the issue. He is far more honest than any of them are, even if his position is wrong.

  292. I posted a tweet…. and not a tweet I wrote.

    If Seamus wants to try and sell that I’m an anti-semite or that I believe in any Jews run the world conspiracy…… lol go right ahead.

    How that washes with me supposedly supporting Terrorists because I don’t condemn the actions the jews took at the founding of Israel I would love to hear him reconcile.

    The claim of me being an anti-semite makes you look foolish Seamus.

    I’ve had to defend the fact that I am not a jew because of my full support for Israel, so I think the accusation is funny or a sign that Seamus has had a complete mental break.

  293. Yes Mahons. Of course he intended it to be disrespectful.Nobody is suggesting otherwise. My only argument is that to me it fails in its intention. Going down on one knee looks respectful even deferential, though I know perfectly well that’s not the message he was aiming to show. I suppose its a matter of how individuals view it.

  294. https://www.pinterest.ch/pin/292522938269535523/

    Kaepernick and his parents

  295. “The claim of me being an anti-semite makes you look foolish Seamus.”

    I’m not saying that you are an anti-Semite. But a lot of your fellow far-right are.

  296. Colm – so it only depends on how individuals view it and isn’t objectively disrepectful? How coy.

  297. Patrick

    Seamus does have a point though. If a tweet mentioning Jewish individuals is intended to promote a specific anti-semitic conspiracy you shouldn’t give it publicity by sharing it elsewhere. If you write a post yourself simply mentioning accurately the same names of financial contributors to campaigns you condemn that’s different.

  298. But the too cute by half people pretend not to know that, and go into a rage when it’s brought up.

    Judging by the hubris and venom in that comment above the only person going into a rage about this is you.

    This is very much like Allan pretending that there was no intentional holocaust.

    Jesus fucking Christ, talk about exaggeration.

  299. Seamus and a lot of the people you have repeated are IRA terrorists.

    Does that make you one? They are YOUR fellow travelers…….

  300. I only say that you guys and Allan are at war with the truth on things that you support.

    It’s all a big funny game to you guys.

  301. He completely despises the country itself, it’s government, it’s history.

    Trump tweets exactly the same thing, word for word .. someone has lost the plot

  302. “Seamus and a lot of the people you have repeated are IRA terrorists.”

    You maybe want to rethink that one.

  303. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

    You don’t think that your Kappy despises the US and it’s history?

    You entirely sure about that?

  304. Anyway CK now has a deal with Nike, Disney and ESPN. So whatever he thinks of the red white and blue he at least has the solace of green.

  305. Mahons

    What a daft thing to say. Of course it was objectively disrespectful. But it also serves to have a visual impact which individuals will see differently and speaking for myself I just think going down on one knee doesn’t look effective as a disrespectful image. Heck, the same gesture has now been adopted at protests around the world to be a mark of respect for Black lives.

    Everything in the world of political persuasion depends on how individuals view it. that is not coy, its just a fact of life. One person’s ‘offensive gesture’ is another person’s ‘brave stance’ and another person’s ‘not fussed either way’

  306. Phantom, let me be crystal clear on this, IMO American Football is a shitty game and I don’t know and care even less what some ‘Superbowl’ or whatever the fuck it’s called player did or didn’t do. All I’m saying is what I interpret the gesture to be and that I’d have no problem with a GAA player doing it.

    Kaepernick was disrespectful to the flag or the anthem or something? Alright, shoot him or electrocute him or whatever for all I care.

    Satisfied?

    As one of the most dishonest commentators on this entire site you’d need to be careful about who you accuse of being untruthful.

  307. Trump accused all the witness in the impeachment of hating their country
    its a playbook.
    Vinderman resigned yesterday after all the bullying .. someone has lost the plot !

  308. When Phantom is reduced to making silly digs like “your kappy” -that’s when it shows he has lost the argument and is resorting to barrel scraping.

  309. Well now we’re getting somewhere, after pulling all the wisdom teeth without anasthesia.

    So if some rotten no good bum does something that is objectively disrespectful to the audience as part of a TV broadcast, which will be a major focus of that broadcast ( it absolutely was ), then why should fans be expected to watch it anyway?

  310. “So if some rotten no good bum does something that is objectively disrespectful to the audience as part of a TV broadcast, which will be a major focus of that broadcast ( it absolutely was ), then why should fans be expected to watch it anyway?”

    No one here thinks fans should be expected to watch it. You are the one complaining about people boycotting content they don’t want to buy because of the political actions and opinions of those featured.

  311. some rotten no good bum

    the mask slips

  312. Why should fans be expected to watch it anyway?

    Who here ever suggested anything to the contrary?

  313. Phantom

    Just so you know – failing to 100% agree with you and Patrick and Mahon’s views on Kapaernick, his gesture, and the responses to it doesn’t make us worshipful adoring fans of the man. That sort of narrow juvenile attitude is bad enough among the stupid naive twitter war mobs – we can have a more adult and respectful recognition of differing viewpoints here.

  314. some rotten no good bum

    But that’s Phantom’s narrow view in a nutshell. You either have to view Kapaernick exactly as that or else you must see him as a great American hero and worship the ground he walks (kneels) on. There is no middle ground.

  315. Seamus

    I don’t think that I’ve ever criticized those who choose not to watch / buy something because of a disagreement.

    I’ve given strong criticism of those who try to get others fired, of those who try to scare families of those they have a beef with by demonstrating in front of a family home, of those who try to deny any platform to others.

    And I don’t think that you can say any of those things.

  316. “I’ve given strong criticism of those who try to get others fired, of those who try to scare families of those they have a beef with by demonstrating in front of a family home, of those who try to deny any platform to others.”

    Except the decision to not watch the NFL because of the kneeling is a message to the NFL that if they allow kneeling etc… then you will not watch. As such they should take action against the kneelers to keep your business. So you are effectively, with your boycott, trying to get people fired.

  317. And if I was to communicate with a company, and make it clear that as long as Racist A, or Bigot B, were their spokespeople that I would not buy their content or their product and they subsequently fired Racist A and Bigot B would that be me getting them fired?

  318. Utter imbecility.

  319. So Phantom is allowed to cancel what he wants and the rest of us aren’t. Or you are allowed to cancel stuff that Phantom disagrees with, but not allowed to cancel the stuff he agrees with.

  320. No, Allan

    As I’ve said a thousand times, you should watch what you wish to watch and not watch what you don’t feel like watching.

    This is an easy concept for most.

  321. “As I’ve said a thousand times, you should watch what you wish to watch and not watch what you don’t feel like watching.”

    So why are you gurning about “cancel culture”?

  322. Phantom has objected to to the concept of boycotts before here on ATW. I guess refusing to watch a football match for political reasons isn’t a boycott or Phantom is a hypocrite.

  323. He also seems a bit confused. He thinks Séamus is Allan and yesterday he was under the illusion that I was Pat.

  324. It would seem that patriotism to Mom’s apple pie has canceled out the logical faculties of some here.

  325. He is being cute, and deserves a slap around the head 🙂

  326. Alex Jones has a new member , we’re commie filth / imbeciles , and Biden is writing huge cheques to BLM to fund the killing of cops – way to go phantom ; just missing the #MAGA

  327. Phantom is upset because he spent hours baking a perfect patriotic 4th of July all American apple pie…. and then Colin Kapaernick came along and stuck his knee into it 🙂

  328. good line for the trump tax return thread

    SCOTUS has the POTUS by the SCROTUM 😉

  329. Colm

    I am a little disappointed in you. I expect better.

    I have never once said that people should not do what they want to do.

    I have also not said that there should not ever be boycotts.

    I have strongly condemned those who wish to compel others to boycott, another thing entirely, or those who use pressure to deny a livelihood to those who disagree with them on a matter.

    These discussions have taken place in some detail over many years here. How can there be any confusion at this point?

    I don’t stop talking to or even being friends with those with whom I have the strongest political disputes, I don’t try to hurt them in any way. But in the wider world, people are ghosting others for political reasons all the time, and they are trying to hurt those that they disagree with.

    In the US, we’ve come a long way from the time when Reagan and O’Neill were genuine friends, despite being opponents on political matters.

  330. Phantom

    And my original specific and detailed point which I stand by and you refute is that refusing to watch televised football purely because you disagree with a football player not standing during the anthem as oppose to a game related reason is albeit in a very small way contributing to the cancel culture. You are perfectly entitled to do it, but it is the same principle as the growing intolerance that leads people to stop buying books records, etc. from artists for political reasons unrelated to the work they produce.

  331. PS – No need to be disappointing with me because I disagree with you on a topic. I am not disappointed with any disagreements with anyone here – its what the discussion blog is all about.

  332. But it was related

    The kneeling was part of the broadcast, It received as much or more media attention as anything that happened in the game itself

  333. You’re only disappointed in Colm? What, did you expect nothing more nor less from the rest of us?

  334. needs some cheering up this thread
    today BLM got painted right in front of Trump Tower
    its looks great doesn’t it ?

  335. I think that every business owner in NYC will see that hostile, targeted government approved act and wonder why they need the aggravation of being here.

  336. It is the same principle as the growing intolerance that leads people to stop buying books records, etc. from artists for political reasons unrelated to the work they produce.

    Indeed. I can’t remember all this fuss when the Dixie Chicks got ‘cancel cultured’ for their stance against the Iraq War and comments about GWB

    You’re only disappointed in Colm?

    Yep. I’m disappointed that he’s not disappointed in me too.

  337. The Phantom, on July 26th, 2008 at 4:06 PM Said:
    I don’t think that Rodney Carrington is going into the music or comedy hall of fame any time soon.

    While I disagree with the Dixie Chicks on a number of things, I think that they are incredibly great musicians. They’re perhaps the best of the big country groups as respects musicianship and respect for tradition.

    Lets see more of the Chicks, not less. Leave censorship with the left, which is its natural home.

    http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=5289#comments

  338. fuss[ fuhs ]
    noun
    an excessive display of anxious attention or activity; needless or useless bustle

    comment[ kom-ent ]
    noun
    a remark, observation, or criticism:

  339. I think that every business owner in NYC will see that hostile, targeted government approved act and wonder why they need the aggravation of being here.

    No they won’t they’ll be proud to be in a city like New York

    your nasty bigoted comment means really its you who needs to move out

  340. Colm- CK says it is indented to be disrespectful.
    Paul – you might very well be in the group of Irish people who would view a disrespectful gesture to the Irish NA or flag as ok. But I doubt the majority of Irish people would.

  341. How is it bigoted to disapprove of a taxpayer financed mural that is intended to escalate tensions?

  342. It is a targeted insult to a major employer who invested big in NYC when NYC had problems

    And it is a targeted insult to the guy whose cooperation is needed when the city seeks to recover

    Dumbest most mean spirted move ever. Bad move from any angle.

  343. How is it bigoted to disapprove of a taxpayer financed mural that is intended to escalate tensions?

    That’s an interpretation which is your right to express
    mine is that the BLM is going to reduce tensions , people get to smile
    now you can’t be angry and smile at the same time

    the real hostility is Trumps divisiveness on race-baiting and the murder of George Floyd
    but hey in your mind and phantom the poor racist Trump gets the sympathy
    That’s why its nasty and bigoted to side with him . In view of what has happened to get us to this point in time .
    Its fucking magic the painting, with the mayor present – you just can’t see it !
    Shame

  344. Paul – you might very well be in the group of Irish people who would view a disrespectful gesture to the Irish NA or flag as ok. But I doubt the majority of Irish people would

    I wouldn’t see it as disrespectful Mahons, that’s the difference.

    I don’t know what the majority of Irish people would think but if we take the comments regarding the issue from the Irish people here as a sample it seems they wouldn’t be that fussed either.

  345. Mahons

    I give up. I surrender. You win. Your ability to read what is clearly in front of you is noted,. So I might as well concede.

  346. if you are black tonite in America you are going to feel so proud of your country you are going to love your country esp if you live in New York City, and you’re going to love your Mayor.
    If you’re a white racist in America tonite you are going to hate your country.
    “quod erat demonstrandum”

  347. Like I said last night, I don’t think Irish people would view an Irish sports personality going down on one knee during the national anthem, in protest at the shooting of another Irish person, as disrespectful. And I doubt if they would vow never to watch that sport again because of that.

  348. I think the real culture war here is in the different perception we have, from opposite sides of the Atlantic, as to what is and isn’t important/respectful.
    And I think some of the worst of that difference in perception is seeping through in some of the snarky, nasty little snipey comments coming from certain individuals.
    Different people have different views on different things. Let’s leave it at that, eh?

  349. Was that mural not painted weeks ago?

  350. Well said Seimi. One of the big differences is we don’t indoctrinate schoolkids with pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth every day.

  351. Seimi

    I think you might be thinking of the road mural in Washington which was the original one.

  352. Mahons and Phantom have come across particularly intolerant on this topic, accusing several of us repeatedly of things we haven’t said and even ignoring things we clearly said.

  353. ‘I think you might be thinking of the road mural in Washington which was the original one.’

    Ah yeah, you’re right.

    Yeah, Colm. It seemed to make them both quite angry. Perhaps it’s best if we all moved on to another topic.

  354. Yeah, there seems to be a fair bit of anger as well as accusation and taunting in some of the comments above.

    Not a nice thread.

  355. Colm – isn’t that merely your perspective?

    Kurt – black protesters hate The Mayor.

  356. The Northern Irish contingent, not the Republic of Ireland contingent.

  357. The Northern Irish contingent, not the Republic of Ireland contingent.

    ? Context?

  358. As far as I am aware no one here (except maybe Peter) is Northern Irish.

  359. I stand corrected I thought Paul and Seimi where for NI originally.

  360. Northern Irish is an identity, not a description of where you are born. I was born and lived pretty much my entire life in Belfast. I am Irish. I am not Northern Irish.

  361. We are, and we’re Irish, not Northern Irish.

  362. I see that the taunting I mention above still hasn’t subsided?

    ‘Northern Irish’ is a contrived ‘nationality’. Weak

  363. You can identify how you wish. But there is a difference in outlooks.

  364. And what might that be?

  365. Mahons got a link to where blank people hate the major? Or just your perspective ?

  366. Turns out to be false his approval rating amongst black voters is much higher than whites. I guess the tale of two cities speech wasn’t you cup of tea mahons ?
    What a nasty thread indeed
    New Yorkers showing their worst side

  367. I haven’t read through the thread, but acc. to the last few comments, Irish people wouldn’t feel bad about someone in Ireland mocking the flag or national anthem. (if I understood the argument right)

    I don’t agree. If anyone publically mocked the flag in, say, Dublin or Cork in a gesture of hatred towards the state, it wouldn’t raise only anger but also boots and fists.

    It all depends on the context; people aren’t angry to see our flag abused and burned on Loyalist bonfires in the North, simply because that’s what Loyalists do and in a way it’s satisfying to see how such bigots are annoyed by us so much.
    Maybe Nationalists in the North have become immune to the symbols of Ireland being disrespected more than people in the South have.

    But isn’t this all just too tedious and silly. In the US, beset with huge problems re. Corona, the economy, the growth of China and above all the lunatic in the White House, there seems to be little going on apart from moral grandstanding on pointless issues, destruction of symbols and public monuments and an endless and stupid debate about the constitution and the “founding fathers” etc. All this in the last few months of an election campaign which, if it goes wrong, could turn out to be one of the most fateful in American history.

    It’s hard to see which is worse: those who start this revision campaign or those who oppose it but let it dictate political discourse. Somehow many of them probably need each other.

  368. Irish people wouldn’t feel bad about someone in Ireland mocking the flag or national anthem. (if I understood the argument right)

    You haven’t understood the argument right, Noel. The issue was whether Irish people would consider kneeling for the NA or flag or whatever mocking or insulting to it. I personally wouldn’t and it seems like Kaepernick and his colleague Eric Reid didn’t either:

    After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

    It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

    But there is a difference in outlooks

    What is it with Americans and the ‘it’s my opinion’ clause? When opinions, outlooks etc are contrary to cold fact they may still be your opinions but they are your incorrect opinions.

  369. If anyone publically mocked the flag in, say, Dublin or Cork in a gesture of hatred towards the state, it wouldn’t raise only anger but also boots and fists.

    And the same would be true here, Noel, but that wasn’t the issue. The issue was, if, like Colin Kaepernick in the US, an Irish sports personality were to ‘take the knee’ during the national anthem rather than stand, in protest at an Irish man being shot (and his killer released without charge), would that be seen as a sign of disrespect towards the Irish national anthem – spitting on it and its associated memories, as was alluded to by a couple of the Americans. And furthermore, would that single action – one person kneeling, during the national anthem, at the side of the pitch, before the game started – (and, by a player we have since been told, who wouldn’t have even started the game) be enough to cause spectators and fans to vow never to watch that particular sport – in any form, live or on TV – again.

    The ‘Northern Irish Contingent’, as we have since been labelled, are of the opinion that this would not be seen as disrespectful, nor warrant the decision to stop watching the sport.
    Other than yourself, we have yet to hear from the ‘Republic of Ireland Contingent,’ as you will be known hence, apparently.

    people aren’t angry to see our flag abused and burned on Loyalist bonfires in the North, simply because that’s what Loyalists do and in a way it’s satisfying to see how such bigots are annoyed by us so much.

    Not quite true. I do get annoyed at seeing the flag of Ireland being disrespected – by anyone. It is amusing though, to see Loyalists mistakenly burn the flags of the Ivory Coast and Mexico etc on their bonfires.

    Maybe Nationalists in the North have become immune to the symbols of Ireland being disrespected more than people in the South have.

    After 51 years here, I still get annoyed at it, so no, I wouldn’t agree with you there.

    …which includes the right to speak out in protest.

    Only if that protest is in line with what others believe, apparently.

  370. Interesting perspective in that NY Times article Paul about the discussions that took place, however I don’t think that will at all mollify our American contingent here, who really have taken an “Anthem Taliban” attitude to this whole discussion 🙂

  371. lol colm
    I’m pretty shocked to be honest, I did not expect to read this level of intolerence
    I always thought it was the Right in USA who are permanently offended , as we have in the UK
    But now its not so clear .

    I’ve read comments from lefties in USA here that get terribly offended over Immigration, Islam, Asylum, Protests, Sports Protests, Police Reform, Confed Statues, BLM signs on roads

    scratch a USA guy and you’ll find a Trumper hiding or eager to get out , maybe he’ll win again in Nov, maybe America deserves another 4 years of the guy !
    After all many of his polices are liked by the Left, and though they may despise the man, they certainly agree with a huge amount he’s been saying on my list above from Immigration to BLM signs on the road .

    Good grief ! sobering

  372. You haven’t understood the argument right, Noel. The issue was whether Irish people would consider kneeling for the NA or flag or whatever mocking or insulting to it.

    I feel it’s only a matter of time before somebody does this. Remember, every Americanism must be adopted, however silly it is in the Irish context!

  373. On the issue of flag burning. I was on a Palestine solidarity march years ago in Dublin when someone pulled out an Israeli flag and burned it. A few people cheered but did not approve. My guess is the most Irish people would be fairly averse to flag burning of any kind.

  374. Most people would definitely see flag burning as far more disrespectful and offensive than going down steadily on one knee during the playing of any national anthem.

  375. One of the most bizarre instances of flag burning I ever saw was just around the corner from my house. On St. Patrick’s Day , at around 11PM, some idiots decided to steal a car and burn it on the main road. We walked round when we heard sirens. The car was burning in the middle of the road, surrounded by a group of drunken youths. Facing them was a fire engine. The fire crew were standing, watching the youths who, probably mesmerised by the flashing lights, would occasionally throw stones at the big red flashing vehicle. I asked one of the fire crew if they were going to extinguish the fire, and he responded by saying they would have to wait for police support, as they couldn’t go near the car while the youths were stoning them.
    The police duly arrived, by which time, the fire crew had decided the fire was now so low, that just letting it burn out was the best option, and asked the police could they use their armoured jeep to push it to the side of the road. They agreed, and proceeded to move the youths on.
    One of the youths then pulled a Tricolour from his pocket, dangled it over the fire to set it alight, and jeered at the police, calling them sectarian names. As he burned an Irish Tricolour. On St. Patrick’s Day. In West Belfast.
    The cops just stood there, shaking their heads. I asked one of them if he was going to deal with it.
    “How do you deal with that!?” he asked. “No clue. That young fella just has no clue whatsoever!”

  376. Kurt – BLM in New York has called for Diblasio to resign, he was jeered and denounced at a George Floyd memorial service, and hundreds of his own staffers signed a letter and marched to City Hall against him.

  377. That is the same insanity going on in most major cities over here right now Seimi.

  378. Mahons, hi

    According to an April Quinnipiac University poll, 42 percent of New Yorkers approve of the job de Blasio is doing as mayor, and 44 percent disapprove. But when you break it down by race, the numbers tell a different story: De Blasio’s approval rating is 31-58 percent among white voters, 33-44 percent among Asian voters, 40-40 percent among Hispanic voters, and 66-23 percent among black voters. In other words, de Blasio does poorly among white New York voters. Among voters of color, it’s a different story.

    Yes, he has slipped in the last year but I was going on that poll, I’d say he’s popular now amongst blacks after the road painting. Or do you evidence to the contrary ?
    but

  379. really deserves a thread of it own , its a phenomena that’s growing

    Black Lives Matter: From social media post to global movement

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53273381

    don’t know if you can see that from USA , might be behind a firewall

    Its good news as with all growing movements its has to up its game and anything untoward like lootings, burnings it can’t be seen alongside , due to its increased exposure

    I think all would welcome that yes ?

  380. Kurt – I wrote black protestors hate the Mayor, and pointed out that BLM in New York has called for his resignation. He has been roundly jeered by black protestors.

  381. you did indeed mahons but you didn’t say when

  382. CK equates the US flag with slavery. He successfully pressured his business enabler Nike to remove the American Flag from a sneaker line. He equates police officers with pigs. You see in the US we know all he has said and done.

  383. He made a point of exercising on the field wearing socks with cops as pigs on them.

  384. you’re still struggling, because my point ins not really about de Blasio
    its about the wider movement BLM, its future , its respectability
    you should recognise its global, its growing, it will become an icon of the future in the same way the green movement has become, or indeed greenpeace, can’t you be generous at all ?

  385. “You can identify how you wish. But there is a difference in outlooks.”

    What difference in outlook would that be?

  386. On June 2 2020 the leader of BLM of Greater New York, Mr. H Newsome called for DeBlasio’s resignation. So if you don’t agree with that call Kurt you must be anti-BLM and a Trump supporter.

  387. I think Irish people from NI are more inclined than people in the Republic to give a pass to radical protests.

  388. “I think Irish people from NI are more inclined than people in the Republic to give a pass to radical protests.”

    Based on what?

  389. Kurt you specifically wrote about DeBlasio and how he should be loved. But now that he’s been denounced by BLM (despite pandering to them) you are dropping him like a rock.

  390. Seamus – based on my observations. Feel free to disagree.

  391. “Seamus – based on my observations. Feel free to disagree.”

    Based on your observations of what? Or observations of whom?

  392. Mahons, pay attention , he’s not my focal point
    I can point to polls where he’s popular then he isn’t , now he is, now he’s not
    this gets us nowhere except you making it a personalthing.

    I’m inviting you to a wider sphere, where you may feel uncomfortable
    perhaps you don’t want to go there now, and that’s fine too 🙂

  393. I can appreciate some of BLM’s arguments without having to accept their agenda lock stock and barrel.
    I accept that Czar is Russia need reforms, but I never had to accept the Communists had all the answers.

  394. “I can point to polls where he’s popular then he isn’t , now he is, now he’s not”

    Kurt, your point and Mahon’s point are not mutually exclusive. De Blasio can be both unpopular with Black Lives Matter protestors while at the same time being popular with black people in general.

  395. Kurt – why not get the Angels to intervene? Surely they could sort this out instantly. Though it would be too late for 8 year old Secoria Turner, shot dead by black activists at their roadblock in Atlanta. Has Colin commented on that death?

  396. CK equates the US flag with slavery. He successfully pressured his business enabler Nike to remove the American Flag from a sneaker line. He equates police officers with pigs. You see in the US we know all he has said and done.

    He made a point of exercising on the field wearing socks with cops as pigs on them.

    So now it’s no longer just about him taking the knee during the national anthem? Now it’s about these other things as well?

  397. Since the shooting wasn’t by the police, who cares they say

  398. Who are ‘they?’

  399. The racist BLM cult

  400. I can appreciate some of BLM’s arguments without having to accept their agenda lock stock and barrel.

    same here, same as you would with the greenpeace movement, climate change movement
    and all doing so without losing the plot like here:

    The racist BLM cult

  401. Mahons, on July 10th, 2020 at 1:53 PM Said:
    I think Irish people from NI are more inclined than people in the Republic to give a pass to radical protests.

    Radical means to get to the root of something. Radical protests are positive if they seek to get to the root of a problem or an injustice.

    If some people from the North of Ireland are more inclined to support emancipatory movements than others, I think this might be due to some very recent history.

  402. In certain American eyes, radical protest is a bad thing, it seems.

  403. Seimi- the other things are part of the total picture. Maybe you prefer only to see part of it.
    Petr – and radical can also be bad.

  404. Seimi – it depends upon the nature of the protest.

  405. https://www.ktvu.com/news/police-association-asks-palo-alto-to-remove-convicted-cop-killer-from-blm-mural

    BLM is a cop killer friendly movement.

    There have been chants in favor of killing cops at their marches.

    If you want to support it, that’s between you and your conscience.

  406. Seimi- the other things are part of the total picture. Maybe you prefer only to see part of it.

    390+ comments in and ‘the other things are part of the total picture.’ How come they weren’t brought up before? It was all about the ‘political hi-jinks’ of taking a knee up until 1.44PM today. More goalpost shifting?

    Seimi – it depends upon the nature of the protest.

    You mean it all depends on whether you agree with it or not?

  407. Seimi – I’m adding to simple comments not writing a manifesto. I guess I could just repeat the same comment over like some.
    Don’t be stupid. It doesn’t depend on whether I agree with it or not. Protestor have gone to homes of legislators here in NYC to intimidate them, bang on their home doors, throw paint on their homes. That is beyond the pale

  408. In the middle of a pandemic they’ve often flaunted health guidelines. In some places the distinction between protest and criminality has blurred. That shouldn’t be allowed.

  409. The intimidation protests in front of the homes of politicians or other are always wrong and should be illegal.

    I’ve written about it before, including when they appeared in front of Tucker Carlson’s home at night, when his young children were trying to sleep.

  410. But the thing that was getting you and Phantom and, to a lesser extent, PaTroll all riled up for the last 36 hours or more, was that CK took a knee during the NA, and that was disrespectful. None of the other stuff.

    I guess I could just repeat the same comment over like some.

    You did.

    Protestor have gone to homes of legislators here in NYC to intimidate them, bang on their home doors, throw paint on their homes. That is beyond the pale

    It’s also beyond protesting. Those are acts of intimidation, violence and damage to property. Attacks on individual’s or their private property are wrong, and anyone engaged in them should be arrested and charged accordingly.

  411. Bill O’Reilly used to constantly threaten to go to people’s houses. Some of these shock jocks are getting a taste of their own medicine, and I say that as someone who is against protesting at people’s homes in almost every circumstance.

    https://www.mediamatters.org/bill-oreilly/oreilly-caller-defending-media-matters-other-nuts-we-should-go-their-house-i-can-get

  412. I didn’t know that O’Reilly said that, but he’s only one guy, and he’s small beer now anyway.

    I dislike many public figures but would never ever endorse this sort of extremely dangerous intimidation against them and their families.

    When this subject came up before, Patrick actually defended the idea of protesting at people’s homes. Patrick, can you stand up straight and try to defend that position.

  413. To be fair to him, I think what he said was that it was fine to protest, as long as you didn’t set foot on the person’s property, or else – BLAM!

  414. I loathe Trump, but one of the reasons that I oppose the idiotic sign on Fifth Avenue, is that they placed it in front of one of his homes.

    This too, is a clear attempt at intimidation.

    ” We know where you and your family live. Shame if anything happened to them ” is the unhid message behind all such home protests.

  415. and he’s small beer now anyway.

    Yes, he has a podcast that nobody listens to.

  416. He was a big star, I thought that he’d be hard to replace, but they replaced him in a minute with Tucker Carlson without losing a viewer.

    The platform of Fox News is more valuable than any of the individual opinion people on it. The medium is the message as the man said.

    Even Hannity could be replaced by someone and in a few months, none of the audience would remember who Hannity was.

  417. Yes, it’s incredible really. The conventional wisdom was that O’Reilly was unfirable because she was such a ratings draw. As you say, that turned out to be very wide of the mark.

  418. I loathe Trump, but one of the reasons that I oppose the idiotic sign on Fifth Avenue, is that they placed it in front of one of his homes.This too, is a clear attempt at intimidation.

    Karl popper: to keep the tolerant safe we have to be intolerant to the intolerant

    Its loud, its in your face, but you’d only be intimidated by it if you thought black lives didn’t matter. If he was a great leader he’d tweet ” I love it, we need more of that, everywhere to make sure the message gets heard and is NOT forgotten ”

    I think you’re confused about standing up to bullies, they only respect a kind of force, in your face , i hope he is confronted by it and intimidated into shutting his dirty mouth up.

    that’s +ve intimidation , -ve intimidation is going after people personally , which is wrong.

  419. Seimi

    Going back to your story about the sttrange flag burning. Is it the case that these were nationalist youths burning the tricolour ?

  420. kurt

    Why is it that many acivists and those on the left get offended by the use of the phrase “All Lives Matter” ?

  421. Colm
    Yes! It was the most bizarre sight! Like I said, the PSNI officer couldn’t understand it either. There’s a young man, holding a burning Irish Tricolour, shouting, “Yeeeeoooowww! Come on, ye Orange bastards!” On St. Patrick’s Day!

    To quote PaTroll and Bugs – what a maroon! 🙂

  422. Colm

    people who use the phrase All Lives Matter, are saying it as a counter to Black Lives Matter. It’s, perhaps wilfully, misinterpreting Black Lives Matter as Only BLM, or BLM more than others. What it is actually closest to is Black Lives Matter as well.
    It comes as no huge surprise that a certain absent gentleman of this parish used All Lives Matter quite a bit… 🙂

  423. That absent gent seemed as though he was having some kind of breakdown. Genuinely hope he gets the help he needs.

  424. Seimi- I disagree with CK’s acts, and am free to expand upon them in order to educate the unknowing.
    As for the imtimidation of people in their homes there is a significant cross over of people engaged in the peaceful protests and those engaged in the intimidation and violence.

  425. Yes, Petr. Some issues there, I think.

  426. One isn’t permitted to say All Lives Matter without being accused of racism. Cause the BLM crowd is all about their speech and less about others. Or they would get past the semantics.

  427. I disagree with CK’s acts, and am free to expand upon them in order to educate the unknowing.

    Of course you are, as you were yesterday, and the day before etc.

    …there is a significant cross over of people engaged in the peaceful protests and those engaged in the intimidation and violence.

    Correct, which is why I wrote

    It’s also beyond protesting. Those are acts of intimidation, violence and damage to property. Attacks on individual’s or their private property are wrong, and anyone engaged in them should be arrested and charged accordingly.

  428. Mahons

    You and Phantom were also educated by us Euroweenies on the nuances and detail of the CK protest yesterday 🙂

  429. Just bumping this up to annoy Seimi 🙂

  430. Why you little…! 🙂

  431. The other day I heard an interview with Dwight Gooden on WFAN sports radio.

    He’s a black former baseball pitcher. At one time, he was probably the best pitcher in baseball. There was a six story painting of him on a building exterior in Manhattan.

    Has had had many personal problems with drugs and alcohol that he continues to struggle with. We in New York root for him in his continued fight against his demons. I think that he’s a good guy. I once met him outside Yankee Stadium, he was nice to us.

    The interviewer asked him about the BLM protests, since every conversation in the world has to get into that.

    He said that ” all lives matter ” and went into some detail about his thoughts on how most police were good, but that there was a big problem.

    I am sure that someone will reach out to him and tell him that saying ” all lives matter “ is in anyway dismissive of black lives.

    It isn’t, but as any political advisor will tell you, you can never deviate from the talking points.

  432. but lame that ending

    you can never deviate from the talking points.

    suggested we’re all drones, which we ‘re not

    Its set , setting and intention. That black guy Dwight made a fine point
    The Gammon in England waving his “All lives Matter” is a different species

    Its obvious all lives matter, it doesn’t need to be said, (all life matters), but right now were in a period of history where enough is enough, its as simple as that.
    Black Lives Matter is the focus , “Right matters” came up time and time again in the Impeachment .

    Peeps need to rise above their petty prejudices and get with the program, see the bigger picture , or don’t
    and instead remain offended ,smug, flatulent, condescending and anal 😉
    your choice !

  433. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-IV_gYKZPw

  434. Nobody has said that ‘all lives matter’ is dismissive of black people. That’s silly, but as someone likes to say around here, “It’s fun to say silly things.”
    The misperception doesn’t come from the BLM side, it comes from the side who are trying to say that BLM means Only BLM or BLM More.
    But hey – your anecdote and Mahons’ statement about ‘One must not…’ have convinced me!

  435. “get with the program”

    Sounds a bit like dictatorial indoctrination kurt !

  436. PS – Kurt

    You’re an Englishman. It’s Programme 🙂

  437. Seimi- We are constantly advised here that All Lives Matter is dismissive of black people.

  438. Yes

    I have heard that many times on radio and TV

    The cult gets enraged is you say All Lives Matter

  439. This is a moment in history, a powerful one, the clock is never going back on this one
    Just a pity two guys both actually residents of New York have completely missed its significance and importance. Selah ..

  440. Perhaps, instead of just listening to what other people are constantly telling you, you should read up on what ALM & BLM actually signify?

  441. Seimi

    What does that mean ? Surely it depends on what reading you choose .

  442. Colm
    That’s true, actually. The things I have read about ALM/BLM have lead me to my explanation of it earlier, whereas the Americans have been told that it means ‘to be racist.’ I disagree with their understanding of it, and they disagree with mine.
    I suppose the difficulty here is that many Americans believe BLM to be a racist organisation, but to say ALM marks them as racist. But if they don’t support BLM, then they are also seen as racist!

  443. Seimi

    My original question to kurt was based on a news report here in the Uk which mentioned an American city where a Black Lives Matter mural painted on a road had been changed overnight by some ‘vandals’ into All Lives Matter. The news report focused on local activists and black residents who were appalled by the alteration decrying it as a ‘”hateful racist attack” and expressing their pain and hurt over the alteration which I regarded as a ludicrous and fake complaint.

  444. Also funny part is BLM complaining about vandalism to “artwork”.

  445. cynicism rules in the mahonian world, oh ye of little faith 🙁

  446. I would agree, Colm. It does appear to be fake complaining.
    Did the original artists have to get permission to paint it? If so, then presumably, the people who changed it did so without permission, and possibly a case could be made for changing an approved piece of art without approval or something? But I don’t think the people who altered it are vandals. They are activists/protestor, the same as the people who painted the original piece.
    I actually do think it’s artwork. Not very good artwork; artwork that is blunt and lacking any subtlety. But artwork, nonetheless.

  447. yeah colm I haven’t got time for cry – babies, its ludicrous you’re right
    This thing this phenomena is so much bigger than signs and stickers, its an evolutionary thrust , and its not going back in its box.~

    Ok so we deplore the loss of that 8yr old in Atlanta, we deplore violence , much like we deplored IRA bombings , but we see a future, we hold onto the dream like Martin Luther had and we go forward united and strong. That is exactly what Biden is doing , for example ..

  448. Sorry kurt but Biden is no saviour. He is a decrepit old loser . The worst candidate the Dems could put up against Trump. If he wins it will be purely because of Trump’s unpopularity. The Democrats should be ashamed they couldn’t find anyone else who could have actually inspired a positive and fresh change for the future. Trump is easy to beat but by God are they making it hard with the insipid blundering Biden.

  449. Biden is the best of who could have won the primary. A low bar but true.

  450. Mahons

    Don’t you think that Pete Buttigieg guy could have been a refreshing moderate candidate, Yes I know he is gay but surely he would have been more vigorous and inspiring than Biden.

  451. Mayor Pete or Amy Klobachar would be looking pretty good right about now.

    The others would have been a divisive waste in my opinion

    Trump is an arch incompetent who completely screwed up the Covid thing, but I swear to you he can win. His ace in the hole is the Democrat base the BLM movement the rioters and statue topplers.

  452. I agree with you Phantom. A quiet silent majority may not be willing to vote for Trump but they may stay at home unwilling to endorse Biden if they feel he is lead by the radical BLM and ‘street fighting’ leftist fascists.

  453. Both parties are I think completely hated by huge numbers of Americans. This has never happened before.

    The Republicans have a complete criminal and incompetent at the top, much of the base of the Democrats are looters, vandals, race baiters, who are ascendent, and legions of milksop drones who won’t criticize them.

  454. lmao and biden is a million miles from that base, but the gullible will believe anything
    put up or shut up !
    list the endorsements of Biden and what your worried about as regards BLM
    the speeches , the quotes, c’mon show us what ya got.
    pats got claims that 119 million dollars is Dems funding BLM
    take a stand .. true or false pats claim ?

  455. WASHINGTON — Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has “lost touch” with her native Baltimore after she refused to condemn the toppling of a statue in the city over the weekend.

    In a Thursday evening tweet, the Republican governor blasted Pelosi’s indifference to the destruction of a statue of Christopher Columbus on July 4 by activists, telling reporters, “People will do what they do.”

    “It’s disappointing that Speaker Pelosi has lost touch with the Baltimore community that her family served,” Hogan wrote on Twitter.

    Pelosi’s father, Thomas D’Alesandro Jr., served as mayor of Baltimore from 1947 to 1959, followed by her brother Thomas L. J. D’Alesandro III, who held the job from 1967 to 1971.

    “While efforts towards peaceful change are welcome, there is no place in Maryland for lawlessness, vandalism, and destruction of public property,” Hogan continued.

    “Our state and nation need room for more constructive dialogue, not destruction. We will not let mobs ‘do what they do.’ They do not represent Baltimore,” he added, referring to Pelosi’s remarks.

    ( NY Post )

    A very senior politician in your party, Kurt, won’t criticize the statue vandals. Now, that’s leadership.

  456. kurt is lost in the the fog of a radical bubble – he cannot see the real world beyond it !

  457. Lol that cute colm but alas untrue
    The people that are lost are those who don’t appreciate the times were in and the lasting significance of that public anger on our institutions. . Nanci gets it .

  458. Ms Pelosi is as fossilised as Mr Biden. Drain out the old blood, pump in some new blood 😉

  459. nah, she’s pure class, surprising comment colm
    she hold the key to checks and balances , Trump hates her

    but lets see how this plays out

    BLM could progress into something special for change, obama-like
    or it could just get like black version of KKK
    or white racists could spark a race war
    we don’t now – these are unknown

  460. perhaps leave the last word to Rumsfield 😉

    “But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

    Its actually gained some respectability that phrase ..

  461. Colm – I don’t think Pete was electable. The goal is to defeat Trump, which requires a more centrist candidate. Hopefully Biden remembers that need.
    Nancy Pelosi was so weak on the vandalism of that statue, it was embarrassing for her.

  462. kurt

    If BLM widens into a more comprehensive empowering movement prepared to look at ways of working with the police and authorities to improve relationships and police behaviour and also prepared to address other issues like the appalling levels of black on black crimes and killings in urban areas then it can become the force for good it intends to be. If it stays as just a radical street agitating anti-police movement it won’t.

  463. Chink of light there Colm . There’s pressure groups all over like NRA . BLM can do good things . we’ll see .