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Let the Games Begin

By Patrick Van Roy On September 28th, 2020

Tuesday Night Fights….. Crazy Joe vs Dastardly Don….. Place your bets….. we know the winner if Biden doesn’t drop dead at the podium he’ll have won, at least in the eyes of the press and the pundits. The question is who will perform the best.

Who will land the best punch, how good are the counter punches, who will get flustered, who will get angry?

These are the things that count, because these are the things that matter to the people, not we the pundit class.

Biden has been in government for 47yrs, he knows his stuff and he knows how to debate. As crazy as Joe is in no way should his ability to hold his own be underestimated. The only question is has he deteriorated mentally? The people will be watching for that very closely,  His demeaner itself will be under strict scrutiny.

In the Kennedy Nixon Debate if you listened to the debate on radio Nixon won, but to the huge audience that watched it on TV they saw a sweaty twitchy tricky Dick and a Dashing Debonair JFK. JFKs coolness and hollywood looks carried the TV audience, the substance of what they each said meant nothing.

So I will be watching with a big bowl of popcorn and a notepad.

88 Responses to “Let the Games Begin”

  1. ach might be too later for us Euro audience, meaning highlights only
    will try to tune in though , always enjoy these gladiatorial events.
    pat who did that sketch of you, its quite brilliant
    self portrait ?

    I hope Biden says
    with record indictments, guilty pleas and prison sentences for your known associates, in the last 4 years , do you think you drained the Swamp mr.president

  2. don’t worry Kurt even though you won’t watch it the debate will be posted here as soon as it’s available.

  3. cool,
    say who did the sketch ? the drawing

  4. Imagine a loud-mouthed brainless drunk staggering home from the pub and he encounters an old, nightwatchman gazing into his brazier.

    And then imagine people take time out of their borning lives to watch the two of them talking.

  5. lil bit salty from you Noel

    what makes it exciting is there is a moderator, three different ones in fact
    set questions, set times, its quite a strict format, and rules based
    slips will occur and then the chair has to move on these two septuagenarians
    gonna be funny them busting each other on what tablets they take ..lol

  6. BREAKING: The media has just declared Biden the winner of tomorrow’s debate.

  7. Just found this – the Kennedy-Nixon debate in 1960. The starkest possible contrast to the dumbheads US politics has today. How America has fallen in 60 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdVHFESjTsE

  8. I agree Noel

  9. we have a decent guy versus a sociopath next door

    “Imagine — if you can — not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken … You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered. How will you live your life? What will you do with your huge and secret advantage?”

  10. blinking heck Noel you been in a bad mood all day , what giveth ? lol

  11. Ask Joe Biden Kurt.

    You describe him perfectly, and if you doubt it ask yourself how a man who has never held any job but politician bring him and his families wealth from working class poor to being worth over 199 million.

  12. nah that’s Trump Pat who is the sociopath
    But lets hear Lindsey Graham make the point about Biden’s decency
    https://youtu.be/kLMYW8jFPHg
    No finer man has god created

    Noel, yeah they’re talking about the issues, I take your point

  13. lol…. who cares what Mrs McCain has to say on anything.

  14. how is lindsey graham comparable to Mrs Mccain ?

  15. he IS Mrs McCain…….

  16. aww heck, lets see what senator Graham has to say on Trump

    Graham: Trump a ‘race-baiting, xenophobic religious …
    https://youtu.be/2bkDykGhM8c

    lol close your eyes pat and just carry on pretending
    rude awakening coming Nov 3rd

  17. mock him away, it only reflects poorly on you
    and the legion of the damned to which you belong oul timer !

  18. Lindsey Graham was John McCains butt boy, and he talks a good game since The Traitor croaked but that’s all it is talk. Over the past 4 years he has sworn he was going to hold hearings 6 different times, he’s not held one. He’s a waste of a seat and a poster child for term limits.

  19. Lindsey Graham was John McCains butt boy, and he talks a good game since The Traitor croaked…

    One of the things we discussed when Charles and I met recently, was a subject brought up by Herself: the enormous respect Americans have for their Servicemen.She said that she had previously imagined that it was just propaganda, but she could see how deeply that respect went in Charles and his own Herself.

    Had she met Troll first, she wouldn’t have made the same remark.

    Charles respected them all, for their service to their country.
    Troll judges each one, based on what someone else tells him to think.

  20. shameful and cowardly attacks by the troll
    the kind of statement LG make on Biden after the loss of his son
    makes everyone is usa feel better, its just who we are, brings us together
    but pat is telling us its not who he is
    you can draw your own conclusions from his rancid stench-filled inhuman remarks
    you’d expect that from a spoilt teenage brat not a grown man put it that way
    in the old days if i was his dad he’d get the belt 100%
    I wouldn’t allow my son to speak like that and would beat the crap out of him

    anyhow
    debates tonite are 2am UK time to 3:30
    I should catch it in bed, unless it sends me to sleep 😉

  21. Seimi,

    Thank you for the kind remarks. I remember the conversation in McHugh’s well. I didn’t realize it made such an impression on your better half however, but I’m glad it did.

  22. The enormous respect Americans have for their Servicemen

    Hmmmmm, not 100% on that one.

    While most nations accept the military as a fundamental tenet of a government’s responsibilities and have a subtle, dignified respect for it, (as in some sections of US society), I’ve never been able to fathom the slavish devotion nor the military golden pedestal which permeates quite a sizeable portion of US society.

    I found the ‘hoooyaa’ culture in the US exceptionally vulgar.

  23. I’ve been all over the US, have been in the military and I’ve never seen slavish devotion or golden pedestals.

    Members of the military suffer for and serve the country in ways that civilians, esp politicians don’t. That fact is recognized by the public, and that is a good thing.

    Even when one strongly disagrees with the misuse of the soldier ( ie the misbegotten Iraq War ) there has for decades been a separation in the minds of the public between the war and the foreign policy and the soldier. This is a sophisticated thing, a wise thing, much better than in the Vietnam times when some condemned the soldier, who was often a draftee, when some songs were actually sung against the soldier himself.

    from Universal Soldier, a sixties song that you would rarely hear now.

    He’s the universal soldier and he really is to blame
    His orders come from far away no more
    They come from here and there and you and me
    And brothers, can’t you see
    This is not the way we put the end to war?

  24. Paul,
    I fully imagine your view is a bit tainted cos of ruddy brits on the streets in Belfast ; but i think phantom is right about service as being held in high esteem in USA, which should not automatically equate with gung-ho . Sounds like a quieter thing to me
    However its worth pointing out that most of the movies that do well that come out of hollywood are very much anti-war movies, certainly 60’s onwards
    Full Metal Jacket, Apocalpyse now , Platoon, Hacksaw ridge to name but a small few
    These films are unafraid to expose the hypocracies and insanity of war, very healthy that 🙂

  25. 1-0 to Biden and we haven’t even started

    Trump is self-pitying again as narcissist’s do

    Donald Trump says Fox News’ Chris Wallace ‘will be controlled by the radical left’ moderating first debate with Joe Biden

    Wallace is a veteran newsman who has a reputation for playing it straight at a network where the opinion hosts skew to the right

    Trump is crapping himself

  26. I’ve been all over the US, have been in the military and I’ve never seen slavish devotion or golden pedestals

    I haven’t been all over the US but I’ve seen what I speak of above at first hand in NY State & in NJ. I also see it all over the internet and occasionally catch glimpses of it here. If you don’t think tha macho miltarism has a special place in a lot of the US psyche then things must have changed quite a lot from the last time I was there.

    Parts of your comment also sound like the ‘only following orders’ defence that we’ve heard before.

  27. I recall during the Iraq war time, when returning soldiers were applauded in airports in my presence.

    Those people weren’t applauding the war or militarism either.

    Americans went through some soul searching in the post Vietnam era, and were ashamed at the reaction ( by a minority ) against the soldiers who came back from war.

    Some of those who applaud soldiers and who fight hard for us to take care of returned soldiers would be anti war folks, including the comedian Jon Stewart.

    The soldier shouldn’t be on any pedestal, but they’re us, and we have their back, from coast to coast.

  28. Applauding soldiers returning from war is pretty close to the definition of militarism.

  29. paul you always get you meat heads and the British Army has a scandal once a year of bullying and a tragic death. For me , and its crucial this point
    The USA recruits its soldiers from the poor in America, as rich kids get mum and dad to pay for further education, so these are just ordinary lads who get in and get out from their deployments.
    I’ve sensed less and less of what you describe, and that sentiment and arrogance has virtually all gone exclusively into the primitive base of Trumps followers, that’s where we find the morons , the drill baby drill types, lock her up , send her back , you know the people who don’t know what a newspaper is , never owned a passport never seen the ocean, or where you can find Iraq on a Atlas . Pats Neighbor’s those types 😉

  30. Kurt, the only person who has introduced the British Army here is you.

    My comments above are based on empirical observation and have nothing to do with the military per se but the non and former military public attitude to them in the US.

  31. i think you mean anecdotal evidence paul ( empiricism ? what here ? on this ? – its totally subjective !)

  32. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/09/11/comedian-jon-stewarts-new-cause-help-veterans-sickened-burn-pits.html

    After using his considerable political clout on behalf of 9/11 first responders and victims to earn them lifetime benefits, comedian Jon Stewart has turned to advocating for veterans sickened by the burn pits used to destroy waste at overseas military installations.

    Stewart released a public service announcement Wednesday to raise awareness about the respiratory and pulmonary diseases, cancers and skin conditions that affect thousands of veterans who lived and worked near the burn pits.

    Many of the diseases seen in these personnel are the same as those found in 9/11 responders.

    “Now, more than ever, we need to focus on the post-9/11 war veterans who have been suffering from the devastating effects of the massive toxic burn pits they were exposed to overseas,” Stewart says in the PSA. “We’re long overdue in getting the medical and financial assistance they gravely need.”

    There would be few finer men than Jon Stewart, a tireless advocate for 9/11 first responders ( police, fire, EMTs, others ) and for soldiers.

    And he’d be as anti war as you can get.

  33. Trump preparing for tonite caught on camera 😉

    https://twitter.com/PauleyTeeks/status/1310630636332359680

  34. Of course it’s subjective, as is yours’ & Pantom’s, it’s empirical.

    And I mean empirical observation, not anecdotal evidence.

    I’d like to know what logical self deception is involved in non military clapping soldiers coming back from a war that you don’t agree with, ‘we don’t agree with what you did but we’re going to show our appreciation for you doing it anyway’?

    Phantom, I don’t think I remember Jon Stewart in NY State & in NJ. Nor all over the internet and occasionally catching glimpses of him here

  35. //I recall during the Iraq war time, when returning soldiers were applauded in airports in my presence.//

    I’m pretty sure that the volume of the applause is in direct proportion to the popularity of the war. A huge ticker-tape, fully deserved, for the returning WW2 soldiers, probably no or little applause for unfortunate Vietnam returnees, and then Iraq: almost certainly louder in the early stage when the US was still in Shock-‘n-Awe mode, and more subdued after Lynndie England and Abu Ghraib started to appear in the news.

    Which is a bit silly. Soldiers don’t make the decisions, good and bad, on where to go or how the war is to be fought.

    //you always get you meat heads and the British Army has a scandal once a year of bullying and a tragic death//

    I lived many years in West Berlin when the Allies were the supreme authority in the city and maintained huge military forces there. You’d often see the military moving around and sometimes even conduct street-fighting exercises in normal residential areas.

    But I have to say of the three armies there, on or off duty, the Americans were by far the best behaved and the most popular among the people. I never heard of a single ugly incident involving Yanks. They always seemed to be putting on band performances in parks or having open-house days where kids could inspect jet fighters and tanks close-up etc. They generally represented a world of fun and laid-back lifestyle in an otherwise often paranoid city.

    The French were little mammy’s boys, who almost never seemed to leave their barracks.

    Worst of all were the British. They were very young and far too often loutish yobs, constantly starting brawls, smashing up bars and brothels and leaving a trail of puke everywhere they went. Every case I heard of a soldier raping a local girl involved a squaddie. Several times I saw MPs chasing hordes of their own soldiers along streets and beating the crap out of them in full public view when they caught them.

    That kind of thing was unthinkable among the Americans. Black and white and whatever the background, they all seemed to be much more mature, better behaved and contented with their lot.

  36. I think one of the things that automatically comes to head is the phrase “thank you for your service”. I think most Americans would recognise the term and the sentiments. Of thanking soldiers for their service. What I would honestly ask, because it is something that baffles me, is what service did they offer?

  37. depends on the mission surely seamus, the us army gets them deployed all over the world, doing this and that . Building bases
    The deeper point you maybe alluding to is anything else like improving towns, bridges, roads, relief efforts and in truth i don’t know alot about whether they do that .
    Much of what USA does is training troops from other countries, their allies using interpreters , training in use of equipment and selling it to them . and ofc going out on patrol where injuries are high fork IED’s etc

  38. As of July 27, 2018, there have been 2,372 U.S. military deaths in the War in Afghanistan. 1,856 of these deaths have been the result of hostile action. 20,320 American servicemembers have also been wounded in action during the war.[1] In addition, there were 1,720 U.S. civilian contractor fatalities.[2]

  39. I always thank soldiers and veterans for their service. And during the Iraq War, I was in one of those clap lines at DFW airport welcoming the men and women to Dallas back on leave. They were stone faced. Out on the street I asked one of them why they showed little emotion. The soldier said, “sir, we were trying not to cry.”

  40. “depends on the mission surely seamus, the us army gets them deployed all over the world, doing this and that”

    I think that is part of the point. The US Army is deployed all over the world. When was the last time, in honesty, that its actions anywhere in the world provided service to Americans? Charles mentioned the Iraq War. Does anyone think it served Americans?

  41. Seamus.

    If you had ever met a man with no legs, one arm and his ears melted off from an IED explosion as I have, you would not ask the question, what service did they offer. All gave some, and some gave all.

  42. i thought phantom answered earlier “there has for decades been a separation in the minds of the public between the war and the foreign policy and the soldier”

    “America is serving its interests” to answer directly seamus

  43. “If you had ever met a man with no legs, one arm and his ears melted off from an IED explosion as I have, you would not ask the question, what service did they offer. All gave some, and some gave all.”

    But in service of what? If a guy loses his legs in a car accident you don’t thank them for their service. You commiserate, you offer support if you can. But you don’t thank them for their service because they didn’t provide service. So again what service did US troops in Iraq, even those who suffered horrendous injury and even death, actually provide?

  44. “i thought phantom answered earlier “there has for decades been a separation in the minds of the public between the war and the foreign policy and the soldier””

    Sure. I’m not blaming the soldiers for the foreign policy. But if the foreign policy doesn’t serve Americans then how are the soldiers executing the foreign policy serving Americans?

    ““America is serving its interests” to answer directly seamus”

    America’s interests is a different idea than being of service to Americans. For the most part America’s interests are not actually beneficial to Americans. When was the last time America fought a war that actually made Americans safer?

  45. If you had ever met a man with no legs, one arm and his ears melted off from an IED explosion as I have, you would not ask the question, what service did they offer. All gave some, and some gave all.

    Did the Iraqi who planted it give all too and if so who gave the most or did both give equally?

    As I said above Kurt, separation of policy and soldier is a small step away from ‘only obeying orders’ I really can’t fathom the self deceit required in order to adulate a soldier for doing something you absolutely disagree with.

  46. I was in a taxi in Dublin going past Croke Park. The driver mentioned that part of the park was built on rubble from the 1916 Uprising and that part would never be built on. “It’s sacred ground” he said. I fully understood. He was honouring the volunteers of 1916.

    I’m honouring the volunteers of the Iraq War. Their mission may not have been as clear as 1916, but they answered their country’s call to service. It’s as simple as that. May I suggest a re-read of the Funeral Oration of Pericles?

  47. It’s as simple as that

    I don’t think that it’s as simple as that at all and think that it’s an insane comparison.

    As a matter of fact, I think that a more apt comparitive to the men and women of 1916 would be the Iraqi who planted the IED in that they surely would have seen themselves as resisting a foreign invader?

  48. The larger mission over time is the defense of the nation, not any particular conflict.

    And have soldiers been misused? Of course. Entire wars have been wrong ( Vietnam ) ; others were thinly disguised imperial land grabs ( Spanish American War )

    Have some soldiers done wrong things? Of course again.

    The soldier serves and does really hard things in a way that the average man does not. The average man or woman in uniform most certainly isn’t in it for the money.

  49. The larger mission over time is the defense of the nation, not any particular conflict

    I think you could list US ‘defence of the nation’ conflicts & wars on at the very most two hands.

  50. Paul

    Do you really want to equate the volunteers of 1916 with the Iraqi soldiers propping up Saddam Hussain’s regime?

  51. WW2, where we were were attacked by Japan and had war declared on us by the imbecile Hitler would be the purest example of a war of self defense.

  52. Paul & Seamus

    In the First World War, millions of ordinary men fought and were slaughtered because of the squabblings of a couple of in-bred cousins. Should these men not be honoured for what they did?

    My point was that many Americans respect their fellow citizens who join their armed forces. Their thoughts on military or government policy don’t come into it: it’s the fact that they joined up that they respect. But, there are people who will say they respect the armed forces, but will besmirch a man’s military career and call him a traitor, because they disagree with their politics in later life.

    I’ve said a few times here that I think that to take up arms in defence of your country is an act of patriotism. Now, I, like you, can see that the US army going into other countries around the world like Iraq, is not in defence of the US, despite what some of the warhawks around here might tell you. But the ordinary soldier on the ground will in most cases not have joined the army in order to fight and possibly die in a foreign country for a cause they don’t believe in themselves. The ‘only following orders’ thing does sometimes apply, as these soldiers don’t join up and then have the luxury of where they are or aren’t posted.
    The same applied to the Brits here, although as we know, there seemed to be an awful lot of them, especially in certain regiments, who seemed to enjoy it all a bit too much.

  53. Do you really want to equate the volunteers of 1916 with the Iraqi soldiers propping up Saddam Hussain’s regime?

    No Charles, that’s why I qualified my comparison with ‘surely would have seen themselves as resisting a foreign invader’

    My point was that many Americans respect their fellow citizens who join their armed forces

    Yes Seimi, I acknowledged it and then went on to the slavish devotion and macho militarism prevalant in some sections of US society. I really can’t understand why you would applaud somebody, anybody if you disagreed with what they were doing / did.

  54. there are people who will say they respect the armed forces, but will besmirch a man’s military career and call him a traitor, because they disagree with their politics in later life.

    And anyone who ever does things like that doesn’t really respect the military at all. All here can agree on that

    The shirker fake tough guy president, who made sure that he never served, just as no member of his family ever served, is Exhibit 1A.

    Or 4F, for anyone who can understand the reference.

  55. //it’s the fact that they joined up that they respect.//

    Yes. Seimi at least gets where I’m coming from on the issue.

  56. //But if the foreign policy doesn’t serve Americans then how are the soldiers executing the foreign policy serving Americans?//

    Good point, but I think the answer is obvious: some Americans are grateful to them simply for being ready to defend the country, irrespective of what, if anything, they ever did or its consequences. It’s a kind of “he also serves who only stands and waits” thing.

    There’s probably also a strong psychological factor: a lot of the people applauding are grateful that they didn’t have to go instead and are somehow compensating for their ease while the other goes and gets dirty.

    Why soldiers join up is one of those questions that everyone seems to have an answer for, while there is no one answer. Every recruit is different; some see no other opportunities in civilian life, others are blind patriots, others like the action, some are running away from their parents, others from an unhappy relationship, some to impress the local girls and I’d say definitely a lot in order to get the kudos and Charles’ applause that they would otherwise never get in their lives.

    Maybe the man Charles spoke to was crying for the approx. 13,000 Iraqi civilians killed in their own country by invading US forces, or the approx. 20,000 Iraqi military killed, who were also innocent victims of the invasion.

  57. the tone is off on a few comments for me
    imagine a fireman getting injured putting out a fire, there’s no question he’s a brave hero
    hacksaw ridge is a very moving true story about a guy who refused to carry a rifle, but whose actions saved around 100 lives.
    any wounded soldier who has played his part , has served his country no matter how dumb or foolish was the war itself, or the actions of the generals, think Gallipoli and Churchill,
    or whether or not anything was served or achieved, like you said Seamus the burden is not to be put on the soldier, its the policy and the chiefs who shoulder that responsibility .

  58. “In the First World War, millions of ordinary men fought and were slaughtered because of the squabblings of a couple of in-bred cousins. Should these men not be honoured for what they did?”

    Honoured? Honestly no. When I think of the millions of ordinary men I don’t feel respect. I don’t feel gratitude. I feel anger at the callous waste of human life.

    “Good point, but I think the answer is obvious: some Americans are grateful to them simply for being ready to defend the country, irrespective of what, if anything, they ever did or its consequences.”

    I think that is close to the point I’m trying to make. They are grateful to these soldiers for defending the country, even though they actually don’t defend and haven’t had to defend the country in modern times.

  59. “imagine a fireman getting injured putting out a fire, there’s no question he’s a brave hero”

    And if he got injured not putting out a fire but setting fire to someone else’s house?

  60. WW One still makes no sense to me.

  61. //Maybe the man Charles spoke to was crying for the approx. 13,000 Iraqi civilians killed in their own country by invading US forces, or the approx. 20,000 Iraqi military killed, who were also innocent victims of the invasion.//

    May be Noel. As a pharmacist on a military base, I’ve spoken to a lot of returning soldiers
    from the front. Imagine being 19 years old on a 50 calibre machine gun watching human bodies literally explode in front of you all day. The young man telling me this said so without any emotion, and I thought, my God, what has the war done to this young lad?

  62. When I think of the millions of ordinary men I don’t feel respect. I don’t feel gratitude. I feel anger at the callous waste of human life.

    My sentiments exactly. I don’t understand why anyone would honour such a senseless slaughter of an entire generation. I do however feel nothing but respect and admiration for those of all uniforms and none who fought against the greatest evil of the XX century in WWII.

  63. And if he got injured not putting out a fire but setting fire to someone else’s house?

    arrest him for arson , he’s a villain. what’s your point ?

  64. Honoured? Honestly no. When I think of the millions of ordinary men I don’t feel respect. I don’t feel gratitude. I feel anger at the callous waste of human life.

    i think this is a mix up of two separate things ( macro/micro )

    I certainly share those emotions as regards the war itself, but feel nothing but abject pity and compassion for the millions who individually lost their lives, their families losses and all that they could have gone on to do with their lives.

    Its possible to hold both emotions at the same time

  65. “arrest him for arson , he’s a villain. what’s your point ?”

    That the actions of many military campaigns are more analagous of setting someone else’s house on fire rather than putting out a fire.

    “I certainly share those emotions as regards the war itself, but feel nothing but abject pity and compassion for the millions who individually lost their lives, their families losses and all that they could have gone on to do with their lives.”

    Sure. Pity, compassion, and anger on their behalf. But not gratitude or anything that would resemble an emotion for which they should be honoured. They did nothing honourable. That isn’t a slur, or a suggestion that they did something dishonourable.

  66. I see that I used the incorrect term.
    Rather than ‘honoured’, I perhaps should have used ‘remembered’ or ‘respected.’

  67. Confirmed, Biden will have an ear piece tonight.

    https://twitter.com/TimMurtaugh/status/1310983330909884421

    They’re going to shoot him up with some wide awake concoction, put a “hearing aid” in and send him out. Then he’ll ask to go to the bathroom a lot.

  68. Ah, the Trump excuses have started already 🙂

    Trump was going on earlier in his Tweets about Biden refusing to take a drug test.

    Why is Trump – and therefore his fanboys, like Pete Moore – so worried?

  69. seamus i disagree , they did do something honorable, they obeyed the call and served their country, and i say that despite the fact it was a total failure, a disaster, a barbarous loss of life.
    Those were the days that were in it, and your country sometimes has to make the call to arms
    Tragic as it was it was not honourable to decline the call .

    we’re still not beyond these bloody sacrifices it has to be said .

  70. trumps advantage is he has faced a hostile press for many years, so he won’t be thrown so easily;
    but he’s been in the habit of walking away in recent times.
    His handlers have got that across to him, just walk away from criticism

    Tonight be can’t walk way and has to face the Biden Juggernaut whose numbers are literally starting to run away from Trump, its the most one-sided election in many years

    Trump has to land big to gain anything, Biden needs to stay cool

    Trump has no ammo, except manufactured conspiracy shite which plays well to the numpties
    but this audience is the whole country, he will be found out as Biden has all the ammo

    My prediction , Trump will be hog-tied and will tweet all night how unfair everyone is to him ..

  71. “seamus i disagree , they did do something honorable, they obeyed the call and served their country, and i say that despite the fact it was a total failure, a disaster, a barbarous loss of life.”

    In my opinion they would only be doing something honourable in answering their country’s call in the call itself was honourable. Many Germans in the 1930s and 1940s answered their country’s call, and did it for exactly the same reasons that the British, the French, the Russians, the Americans did, to answer the call of their country. Said call was in service of a barbaric regime committing evils so great that they had never been seen before or since. Was that service, that answering the call, honourable? In my opinion no. The answering of the call is only honourable if the call itself is honourable. And going of to war, not in defence of one’s country, but so that the King can win a cousingly pissing contest, is not honourable. Deluded. Rage-inducing. And a group to be pitied. But not honourable.

  72. “Rather than ‘honoured’, I perhaps should have used ‘remembered’ or ‘respected.’”

    Remembered? Sure. Respected? Depends on what one means by respect.

  73. the only issue i have with that ruling seamus is it heavily relies on hindsight. we’re much more connected and wiser and know about stuff, then with no radio, tv or modern comms it must have been a paper printed on a town hall. well in fact it was ” your country needs you”.

    it was just expected that everyone who is able turns up. Deference was everything, in those strict class days – women has no votes and mens votes weren’t exactly one man one vote; its all the more tragic in what actually happened, but no-one knew then what we know now except a select few grandees, they have the millions of deaths on their plate ..

    you’ve hit on the right word
    garden of remembrance, days to remember the dead. Its a good word nonjudgmental
    and people are free to remember as they wish , or not at all .

    There we are we, its been been solved 🙂

  74. “the only issue i have with that ruling seamus is it heavily relies on hindsight. we’re much more connected and wiser and know about stuff, then with no radio, tv or modern comms it must have been a paper printed on a town hall. well in fact it was ” your country needs you”.”

    Sure. But when discussing whether an action was honourable or not one must do it with the facts and hindsight. I think there is a distinction between an honourable action and what could be seen as a reasonable course of action given the facts known at the time.

    There is then also a fact that the Wehrmacht didn’t fight a battle on German soil until the later half of 1944. Aachen, the first German city taken during the war, was captued in October 1944. So a German soldier between the pre-war conquering of Czechoslovakia, through the invasions of Poland, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, France, Denmark, Norway, and the Soviet Union, a German soldier all that time (nearly a decade) spent the entire time fighting wars of conquest, not of defence. How much hindsight do you need?

  75. “How much hindsight do you need?”
    well they say let history be the judge

  76. 20 minutes in, and Trump is making a balls of this. Brash, rude, ignorant. Biden straight up called him a liar 🙂

  77. much worse than I expected

    This is an embarrassment to the nation

  78. Trump has been so awful.

    I would love to read a defence of him.

  79. And Biden hasn’t been 100% himself, but he could be at 50% and still be better than Trump. He is unprofessional and un-presedential.
    An embarrassing performance by a sitting president.

  80. Biden is certainly on the top of his game. Trump is brash and defensive.

  81. Very poor

    Not a quality debate at all

  82. I think both candidates did poorly, trading insults more than debating issues, each trying to score dirty points instead of highlighting records. Trump was too keen to butt in on Biden’s time, and Biden too keen to throw out rumour and innuendo against Trump. Poor show all around.

  83. The upcoming debates should be canceled

    If they are anything like what we just heard, there is no point to them.

    Katty Kay of the BBC is saying that tonight, and she’s right

  84. that was a shit show……. but still fun to watch.

    It’s posted

  85. Like watching two 7th graders argue……

  86. I’d be surprised if there are 2 more debates Phantom.

    I think both sides are plotting how to cancel them as we speak.

  87. Trump was absolutely dreadful. Biden called him a liar numerous times, and he was right. Biden was far from perfect himself, but Trump – and his supporters – have got to admit, he screwed this up, big time. I would say that it’s the Trump camp who want to cancel any future debates, because they know their guy can’t handle it.
    I would say that Biden’s people would be happy to carry on with the debates, because he was miles better than Trump: looking directly into the camera, speaking to the American people; laughing off Trump’s insults and just plain calling out his lies.

  88. How one analyst on ITV summarised it:

    //a hot mess inside a dumpster fire within a train wreck//

    An absolute embarrassment. Both candidates were shoddy with one being an absolute ignoramus.

    Well done America.