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Get a bag a popcorn

By Patrick Van Roy On September 30th, 2020

90 min is hard to commit to, but believe me…… you’ll love it!

220 Responses to “Get a bag a popcorn”

  1. I didn’t love it. That spectacle should embarrass Americans.

  2. The leader and future leader of one of the most powerful countries on the planet acting like petulant children, shouting over each other, insulting each other. They are an embarrassment.
    I certainly don’t love it.

  3. Frankly, I was surprised at Trump’s approach. It was an example of all tactics and no strategy. He interrupted even when Biden was stumbling, which had the effect of letting Biden off the hook and out of the ­rhetorical weeds

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/a-hot-mess-of-a-debate-and-a-bad-plan-by-trump-goodwin/

    A pro Trump writer In a pro Trump newspaper is highly critical of what Trump did last night

    Trump’s entire plan, if there was one, if there was any preparation- was to shout over Biden, to not allow him to speak, to mock him. He set the tone. That buffoonery got him the nomination and the White House in 2016, but it won’t work now.

    Four years ago, he was some guy. Last night, he Was the President of the United States, before the entire world, but not acting like a president at all.

  4. I agree with all above. It was an embarrassing night for the country. Fox is critical of Trump also, as well as Biden (calling Trump a racist, telling him to shut up, not answering the question on packing the SCOTUS). Trump was obviously unprepared.

  5. Trump and some of his supporters were preparing to lose the debate before it even took place, by spreading rumours that Biden would be wearing an ear-piece and that he would be on some performance-enhancing drug.
    The Trump excuses are already up on Twitter, with Trump himself posting a photo of himself VS Biden and Wallace.

    I’m no fan of Biden, but at 82 or whatever, I didn’t think he stumbled too much. He appeared sharp throughout, and played Trump perfectly.

  6. Trump needs desperately to attract new support.

    But this performance can only make that impossible now

    It has always been his way not to prepare, to wing it, to create chaos and see what,happens

    It didn’t work this time.

    As someone just said on TV, last night was not a debate. It was a firebombing, a disgrace for the ages, which harms the image of the US in Europe and Asia. You don’t see Xi or Putin carrying on like horse’s asses like this.

  7. When Biden stated “I am the Democratic Party” I think he overstepped. Really? Bernie supporters don’t matter? Pelosi and Schumer and AOC will remain silent? He is being willfully blind if he thinks he won’t be pulled left if he wins. That is what Trump should have pressed him on, not the silly stuff.

  8. Biden is a caretaker, a way station.

    If elected, he may be able to steer things in a responsible direction, but I don’t know.

  9. “Bernie supporters don’t matter? Pelosi and Schumer and AOC will remain silent?”

    Will they remain silent? No. But then Pelosi and Schumer will fall in behind the White House. Nancy Pelosi who had a reputation for being firmly on the left wing of the Democratic Party became a centrist under President Obama. Chuck Schumer is firmly a centrist. AOC is crazy but she is also a a junior house member. She has power at election times because candidates in primaries will be wooing voters who like her. But beyond that her legislative role is limited.

  10. If I was Biden, if elected, I wouldn’t walk down stairs in front of Harris! That’s what scares me, Harris becoming President. Even the Dems rejected her. She’s way too far to the left.

  11. Harris IMO isn’t hard left, I see her as unprincipled

    As CA AG, She fought to keep an innocent man in prison, And then went out of her way to fight his attempts to obtain compensation

    Her attempt to paint Joe Biden as a racist in the primary debate was despicable, revealing, should not be forgotten

    Biden was a fool to select such a snake as his running mate

  12. “She’s way too far to the left.”

    Is she though? Both a strength and a weakness of Kamala Harris is that she is a political chameleon. She adopts the positions she needs to succeed in the situation she is in. A bit of a brutal history as a prosecutor (though that has certainly been overplayed and a lot is based on innuendo rather than fact). She has been a Senator for one of the most liberal states in the Union. So she has been one of the most liberal Senators. During the primaries she felt there was room to grab votes from young people, and from minorities, by going far-left on a number of issues (and going for Biden’s knees on race). And now that she is Biden’s VP she is very much so advocating a moderate line.

    So I think she will advocate the line that offers her the most reward. Given the general public’s aversion to the Bernies of the world then I don’t see her adopting those sort of positions nationally.

  13. Pretty much what Phantom said.

  14. I agree with you both. She will do or say whatever it takes to get elected.

  15. it was a shit show…….

    Trump was Horrible, Biden was Horrible and Chris Wallace was Horrible.

    It was like watching a substitute teacher trying to break up an argument between 7th graders.

    I will be surprised if they go through with the other 2 debates.

  16. I can see why Trump would be reluctant to have another debate, but Biden should push him to do it. If Biden was poor, Trump was pitiful.

  17. They were both a disgrace.

  18. “I can see why Trump would be reluctant to have another debate, but Biden should push him to do it. If Biden was poor, Trump was pitiful.”

    Biden has nothing to win. Front runners really don’t have anything to win in a debate. If they meet expectations then they stay where they are (no benefit) and if they don’t meet expectations then the gap is close (negative benefit). Biden should want to cancel the debates more than Trump should.

  19. There was actually a good amount of info and position differences pointed out by both candidates, but none of it came across because both men looked like asses.

  20. Biden is not the frontrunner Seamus.

  21. “Biden is not the frontrunner Seamus.”

    He really is. You are getting delusional now.

  22. No the polls are 30% republican, 40% Democrat, 30% Independent.

    That 70% democrat sampling to 30% Republican.

    and before you go there the perfect example of an “American Independent” is Phantom. You are banking on polls and the polls are crap.

  23. Chris Wallace was trying to conduct a debate between adults, but there were no adults on the stage, with the partial exception of Biden. They were virtually pulling each other’s hair, scratching one another, screaming. Very hard to manage that.

    The next time around, the moderator should turn off the mike of either one of candidates, should there be any nonsense whatsover.

    There was talk of Joe Rogan as a moderator. That won’t happen, but it should. He would be the type of personality who could lay down the law, like a good bartender/bouncer, who Trump would not dare mess with.

  24. “You are banking on polls and the polls are crap.”

    The polls were accurate in 2016. The polls were accurate in 2018. Why do you think they won’t be accurate now after being accurate in 2016 and 2018?

  25. lmao

  26. Biden is doing very well in the polls –within– PA and in a number of other swing states.

  27. “lmao”

    That isn’t a response. It is evidence that you don’t have a response.

  28. “Biden is doing very well in the polls –within– PA and in a number of other swing states.”

    Indeed. In the run-up to the 2016 election Clinton’s lead in the polls in Pennslyvania was 4%, with 12% undecided or voting for third party candidates. Biden’s lead in Pennslyvania is about 8%, with only 6% undecided or voting for third party candidates.

  29. Trump ran hard in 2016, and he pulled off a brilliant, narrow but still a win, swing states victory.

    That’s hard to do a second time, made much harder still with the way that he has carried on.

    Plus Biden doesn’t look down on white working class voters the way that Hillary ( ” deplorables ” ) does. He doesn’t raise the red flags among the guys driving pickup trucks the way that she did.

    Helped greatly by Trump’s performance last night, this is Biden’s election to lose now.

  30. no it means I understand polling Seamus you really don’t.

    Polls do NOT reflect anything. Polls serve one purpose to make and shape perception, not report it.

    Phantom last night in between the idiocy Biden reiterated banning Fracking and Coal. That’s a loss of over 2 Million Jobs in Pennsylvania, 2 million UNION Jobs, but you bank on those polls.

    Governor Wolf isn’t he knows Trump’s going to win the State and is doing everything he can to set the vote to be stolen through fraudulent mail in ballots.

  31. 304-227…. is not a narrow victory.

  32. “Polls do NOT reflect anything. Polls serve one purpose to make and shape perception, not report it.”

    Is everything a conspiracy theory to you? Is it the Jews again?

    Why do you think polls won’t be accurate in 2020 after they were accurate in 2016 and 2018?

  33. “304-227…. is not a narrow victory.”

    It really is. Change a tiny proportion of votes and Clinton is President. In terms of electoral college there have been 57 Presidential elections. Trump’s electoral college win puts him 46th.

  34. I doubt very much that there are 2 million fracking and coal jobs in PA to start with.

    Coal is a dead duck, fracking is not, the numbers are not right, and the Dems damned near won PA four years ago.

    Patrick, you are way too emotionally close to this subject to analyze it right.

    You need to have the cold analytical eye of an actuary, a sports bookmaker or a hedge fund manager. You are not doing any of that.

    And pollsters do want to be right BTW.

  35. Trump is on target to lose almost all the swing states and maybe some biggies like Texas
    A good night 350+ Biden
    A great election once all votes counted Biden 400 +
    can’t see Trump getting over 40% of the vote Share
    Basically Trump blew it last night and there is no road back

  36. Fracking in Pa just those working in the actual drilling and piping is over 900,000 union jobs. That doesn’t include the ancillary businesses (The Truckers, Suppliers) that’s just those who work in the actual act of fracking.

    And there is only 90,000 coal miners, but when you include the entire coal industry jobs which will ALL go away if coal is shut down is over a million workers in Pa.

  37. Who says 900,000 union jobs

    That sounds like something from a fracking lobbyist blurb, not real.

  38. “Coal is a dead duck, fracking is not, the numbers are not right, and the Dems damned near won PA four years ago.”

    Though fracking is not the economic saviour it was a decade ago. Ultimately oversupply has caused the natural gas price to collapse. It was about $16 per MMBTU in 2008, about $4 per MMBTU in 2016 and currently sitting at about $1.50. So instead of selling huge amounts of gas at $16 (which is why they set up so many wells in Pennsylvania) they are selling it at $1.50. It simply isn’t economic. And the fracking industry is already declining. It won’t disappear. There is too much gas there for it to go completely. But it won’t be the dominant player it currently is.

  39. “And there is only 90,000 coal miners, but when you include the entire coal industry jobs which will ALL go away if coal is shut down is over a million workers in Pa.”

    https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.pa.htm

    According to this there are a total of 24,300 ‘Mining and Logging’ jobs in Pennsylvania. Now not all of those will be coal mining jobs. So it definately isn’t 90,000 coal miners.

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SMU42000001021210001

    According to this there are 4,800 coal mining jobs in Pennsylvania.

  40. Seamus the economic bonuses of Fracking have not even started. The pipelines and the refineries and distribution ports are not even finished being laid, and built. The boom from fracking is still 4 to 8yrs away.

  41. “Seamus the economic bonuses of Fracking have not even started. The pipelines and the refineries and distribution ports are not even finished being laid, and built. The boom from fracking is still 4 to 8yrs away.”

    Firstly the boom has happened. Pennsylvania produced 7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in 2019, compared to 275 million in 2009. That is a 25 times increase in a decade.

    However none of that matters because what does matter is the price of natural gas is $1.50. It doesn’t really matter how much of the stuff you can get out of the ground if you can only sell it for pittance. $16 per MMBTU in 2008, $1.50 now. So despite a 25 times increase in production that equates to about twice as much in sales. That is hardly an economic miracle.

  42. sorry the 90,000 is the national number not the Pa number.

    But you’re still wrong. You don’t understand what the coal industry encompasses in not just Pa but in every state. In Pa we’ve always had 4 primary industries Medication, Coal, Steel, and Oil.

    The democrats killed the steel industry, devastating huge portions of the state. Those portions of the state are the same regions where the coal is dug and processed. With the death of steel only the coal industry and the ancillary companies were left. Obama/Biden devastated those jobs and he said there will be no more coal fired plants they will be shut down.

    And without the Fracking there is no turning the coal powered plant to natural gas.

    QUICK FACTS
    Pennsylvania’s marketed natural gas production, primarily from the Marcellus Shale, reached almost 7 trillion cubic feet in 2019, and the state is the nation’s second-largest natural gas producer after Texas.
    Pennsylvania was the third-largest coal-producing state in the nation in 2018, and it was the second-largest coal exporter to foreign markets.
    In 2019, Pennsylvania ranked second in the nation after Illinois in electricity generation from nuclear power. However, Pennsylvania’s natural gas-fired power plants surpassed nuclear power as the largest provider of in-state electricity for the first time in 2019.
    About half of Pennsylvania households use natural gas as their primary home heating fuel, and its 49 underground gas storage sites–the most for any state–are key for helping to meet heating demand in winter.
    Pennsylvania is the third-largest net supplier of energy to other states, after Wyoming and Texas.

  43. People are getting out of the fracking business or are going bust because of low prices

    https://fortune.com/2020/06/29/chesapeake-energy-bankruptcy-fracking-oil-gas-shale-coronavirus-pandemic-stock-price/

  44. World trade killed the US steel industry, automation killed steel jobs

    I said this here years ago

    I have visited a steel mill that now produces the same amount of product with maybe 80% fewer jobs

    Democrats are not responsible for every bad thing that happens, like James Bond villains

  45. One of the biggest fracking companies in Pennslyvania is Range Resources. In April 2014 their share price was $95 a share. It is now less than $7 a share.

  46. and tell me Seamus if the 2 plants to process the natural gas aren’t on line yet, the piping nots finished, and the export terminal isn’t finished yet how has the boom already peaked?

    The infrastructructure is not on line, the exporting has not yet begun. That’s where the real money will be made.

  47. “and tell me Seamus if the 2 plants to process the natural gas aren’t on line yet, the piping nots finished, and the export terminal isn’t finished yet how has the boom already peaked?”

    Because the boom was when they were able to get a lot of this out of the ground but when prices were high. Now it doesn’t really how much they get out of the ground, and how much processing is done in state, and how much supporting infrastructure. If the price of gas stays as low as it is now then the economic benefits of natural gas will be limited.

  48. two decades ago I took the 2 day company tour of Caterpillar factories in Peoria Illinois and even way back when the tour guide bragged about how many people USED to work there and how may do didn’t anymore

  49. Why the rush to export at pricing this low

    Investors are moving away from this industry

    Prices are expected to stay low for a really long time

    Who makes money selling an underpriced product?

    EP

    More than 20 years ago, I visited a metal fabrication plant near York PA. Very high tech, very quiet, completely organized and efficient. Even then, it was all robots, moving metal around, cutting it or whatever, moving it to the next station.

    I think that many of us have no idea what modern manufacturing is like.

  50. Joe Biden wants to be the Not-Trump, and boy was he ever at the first debate Tuesday night.

    The former vice president spent the entire evening under withering assault from President Trump, who dominated the proceedings as he always has in these face-to-face confrontations — by interrupting, insulting, needling, ignoring the rules and feeding vampirically off the shocked finger-wagging of moderator Chris Wallace.

    Without question, Biden seemed outmatched from beginning to end. But outmatched by what, exactly?

    Yes, Trump roared, Biden was hoarse. Trump was full of beans, Biden sounded like his mouth was full of beans. Trump was a bludgeon, Biden was a dull peen hammer.

    But the simple fact of the matter is that Trump was incredibly unpleasant to watch, and Biden wasn’t.

    It was painful and sordid and cringe-inducing, and that was almost entirely Trump’s doing.

    John Podhoretz, Trump Supporter.

  51. Who are the ‘Proud Boys’ and what does ‘stand back, stand by’ mean?

    Is this some Trump equivalent of the Sturmabteilung and is this Trump giving them instructions?

  52. Because the boom was when they were able to get a lot of this out of the ground but when prices were high. Now it doesn’t really how much they get out of the ground, and how much processing is done in state, and how much supporting infrastructure. If the price of gas stays as low as it is now then the economic benefits of natural gas will be limited.

    The price of gas is low because the world is on lockdown. There is so much excess product available the market is frozen.

    The US only began to tap it’s gas and oil production in the last year. We’ve brought our reserve, supply and production to number 1 in the world in just a 4yr period of drilling.

    We are in the building stage of infrastructure to begin mass exportation which has not yet started….. but the boom is over….

    C’mon Seamus you’re smarter than that.

    Over the next ten years the entire world fuel market will shift and the will do nothing but benefit the US which will become the worlds number 1 supplier of Fuel….. yet the boom is over.

    Sorry the worlds on hold the boom hasn’t even begun.

  53. “The price of gas is low because the world is on lockdown. There is so much excess product available the market is frozen.”

    The price of gas has been declining for years. It was $4 at the end of 2018, and $2 at the end of 2019. So it has bugger all to do with lockdown.

  54. Anyone who believes the crap going on in our cities has anything to do with white supremacy I’ve got some bridges to sell ya….. Phantom can even snap some pictures of them on his bike rides and send them to ya….. lol

  55. “Anyone who believes the crap going on in our cities has anything to do with white supremacy I’ve got some bridges to sell ya”

    Do you believe it is wrong for the President of the United States, while pretending to care about law and order, to tell an armed, far-right, white supremacist militia to “stand by” because “somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left”?

  56. Pat,

    Who are the ‘Proud Boys’ and what does ‘stand back, stand by’ mean?

    It’s a pretty straightforward question.

  57. The price of gas is low because the world is on lockdown.

    You made that up.

    The price is a bit lower now, but natural gas prices have been very, very low since 2010 and before. So low that companies have have been exiting the business since 2010. I’ve spoken to companies, suppliers to that industry, who have exited the business in that time frame because of unprofitability and no path to profits seen

    https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historical-chart

  58. It was declining Seamus because the raw supply was being produced faster than the infrastructure. Not for any other reason.

    Fracking caused a glut, the glut must be processed. As more and more were pumped out of the ground than we had the processing and distribution capability the price declined because there was a glut.

    The supply rose over ten years and was flooded in the last 3 of that 10, while processing actually declined the first 7 years. The new processing and distribution systems are still being built and won’t be complete for most of the next 5 years.

    The boom won’t even begin until the middle of the first term of whoever is after Biden/Trumps next 4.

  59. The spot market price for natural gas has fallen in most of the past ten years, with a 35% reduction in price in 2019.

    Before any lockdowns

  60. Processing will increase the glut, not decrease it. Thus what your saying is that it will lower the gas prices even further. Thus the economic returns from fracking will be even lower.

    If the boom is happening why has the main fracking company in Pennslyvania seen its share price drop from $95 a share in 2014 to less than $7 a share now? If the boom was happening, or even likely to happen, then that wouldn’t be the case.

  61. Phantom wants to ignore the lack of LNG processing plants also….. to much supply not enough processing, price drops.

    Have either of you ever studied supply and demand and the importance of the supply chain and how each piece depends on the other?

    You can have all the supply in the world, if you can’t process it, or move it, it’s worthless.

    Ya pack of commies, learn how capitalism works.

  62. “to much supply not enough processing, price drops.”

    Except it is the opposite. What you are suggesting is that there is not enough processing plants. Thus raw gas is sitting unused. Thus the current supply is actually lower than what it would be if that processing was online. Thus when that processing goes online the supply will increase. Thus you would have even more supply, without any new demand. Thus even further price collapse.

    “You can have all the supply in the world, if you can’t process it, or move it, it’s worthless.”

    Except you can’t. Because there is not enough demand. That is how capitalism works. There is an oversupply, not enough demand, thus price collapses.

  63. Patrick

    You have a different excuse every day for the low prices of gas

    There is a global glut of LNG, mostly a good thing

    Are you going to export it to Mars?

  64. //It’s a pretty straightforward question.//

    Paul, and one worthy of an answer. Unfortunately, I haven’t the foggiest. I suppose stand back means do not engage. “Stand by” is a much more troubling statement however. Stand by for what, orders to engage the enemy?

  65. Never IMO has there been a more troubling performance by a president in front of such an audience.

    People are genuinely shocked

    This was almost ” murder by cop ” where a bad guy prompts the police to shoot him

    Was Trump taking a dive last night, trying to lose the election by any means necessary?

  66. Never IMO has there been a more troubling performance by a president in front of such an audience.

    People are genuinely shocked

    This was almost ” murder by cop ” where a bad guy prompts the police to shoot him

    Was Trump taking a dive last night, trying to lose the election by any means necessary?

  67. Thank you for your characteristic honesty Charles.

    For months we’ve seen people shitting the bed on ATW about how violent protestors are *’anteefa’ / BLM / anarchist/ commie / socialist/ Dem foot soldiers.

    Here we have what seems to be the sitting POTUS giving instruction on national television to a violent, armed far right militia and over an hour and various comments after the initial question being asked the two Americans shouting loudest over the above have chosen to completely ignore it.

    Interesting.

    I can only imagine the amount of bed shitting had Biden made the same comments but inserted ‘anteefa’ instead of ‘Proud Boys’

    *Delete / conjoin as appropriate.

  68. last night, we saw once again all the ways in which President Trump personifies an approach and tone that is the opposite of everything most of us parents try to teach our kids. Why we make excuses for this behavior as Republicans is beyond me.

    can anyone answer why ? esp republicans here phantom pat charles 😉
    petem you’re excused as i’m guessing for you is Trump isn’t flooding every major city with right wing terrorists then he’s a bloated flabby commie

  69. I don’t think that Trump said what you think he said about ” Proud Boys ”

    And that group hasn’t killed people as far as I know, while Antifa and BLM supporters most certainly have killed people, called out for murder very openly, set fires, looted, etc.

    So, Trump will be trashed by me endlessly but I’m not going to make stuff up the way that you guys like to do. He’s bad enough, he can be crucified by the facts alone.

  70. Kurt, as I’ve said before, I don’t like Trump’s approach and tone. I don’t personally like him. I do however agree with most of his policies. That’s what’s important for me. I’m not voting for alter boy of the year.

  71. I don’t think that Trump said what you think he said about ” Proud Boys ”

    Of course you don’t. So, what does ‘Proud Boys stand back, stand by’ mean IYO?

    But I’m not going to make stuff up the way that you guys like to do

    In contrast to Charles’ characteristic honesty, yet another example of the King of doubletalk & obfuscation’s dishonesty to avoid answering a question.

  72. pahntom , lame answer , totally inadequate

    the proud boys themselves have tweeted they’re delighted, and ready and waiting on stand-by
    they have a president who can now whistle and they will follow
    the closest you can get to a parallel is fascist dictatorships with their own gestapo
    its totally abhorrent for a POTUS to play with these groups .. surely you can see that ?

  73. “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by,” Trump said. “But I’ll tell you what, I’ll tell you what, somebody has got to do something about Antifa and the left. Because this is not a right-wing problem. This is a left-wing problem.”

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-says-president-has-continuously-denounced-white-supremacists-amid-criticism

  74. Indeed Charles. Sounds pretty much like instruction to me.

    So, what does ‘Proud Boys stand back, stand by’ mean IYO?

    I don’t even know why I bothered asking the question. It’s not as if I’ll get an honest answer.

  75. stand by means be on stand by, be ready for instruction
    Its doesn’t mean anything else
    stand back isn’t much of an improvement either.
    stand down, go home , stay home : is a clear instruction the USA was looking for and didn’t get
    Trump got caught out here big-time
    its a certain election defeat, pundits will clock the moment he blew it

  76. He’s bad enough, no need to make him into the new Hitler.

    Have fun with that.

  77. Yeah, remember all that whining and wailing about how the Dems weren’t condemning the violence, then they weren’t condemning it strong enough, then they weren’t condemning specific actions to individual specification.

    Here we have a sitting POTUS directly addressing a violent, armed, far right militia with instructions and those asking for opinions are ‘making things up’

    An absolutely fucking incredible brass neck.

  78. I do think that it is now nearly a certain defeat.

    You could never have had a worse performance than what we saw last night

    I could see him undergoing a mental breakdown, so great is the ongoing disgrace that will face him for the rest of his days

    How much do you want us to condemn the “new Hitler” to make poor Paul happy.

    Let’s create another fake argument over nothing. A very Trumpy approach to life.

  79. If you don’t make the identical criticisms that some people make, in the same tone of voice, some come looking for an argument, when there has been vast agreement until then. As there was here last night and this morning.

    Why the need for this kind of thing over and over again?

  80. How much do you want us to condemn the “new Hitler” to make poor Paul happy.

    Let’s create another fake argument over nothing

    Stop inventing things. Your dishonesty precedes you more than your patronising does.

    So, what does ‘Proud Boys stand back, stand by’ mean IYO?

    You’d have more credibility trying to give an honest answer to an honest question than being a wanker.

    Oh and BTW,

    https://www.newsweek.com/proud-boys-founder-recorded-video-titled-10-things-i-hate-about-jews-2017-1535300?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1601484611

    But hey, shhhhhhh about a sitting POTUS addressing them with instruction.

    Why the need for this kind of thing over and over again?

    For months we’ve seen people shitting the bed on ATW about how violent protestors are *’anteefa’ / BLM / anarchist/ commie / socialist/ Dem foot soldiers.

    Here we have what seems to be the sitting POTUS giving instruction on national television to a violent, armed far right militia and over an hour and various comments after the initial question being asked the two Americans shouting loudest over the above have chosen to completely ignore it.

    That’s why.

  81. I think that when Trump uttered the ‘stand back stand by” comment that he himself wasn’t sure what he was saying. He was stumbling for an answer that neither condemned or openly condoned them so he was trying to say “I’m not against their existence, they support me but I know they are a bit dodgy” so he came out with that attempt at a neutral remark.

  82. I didn’t hear him saying what you think that he said. And think that a number of others here don’t think that he said that either. So sue me.

    And I am Trump’s strongest critic on these pages.

    This is just you crossing the street and taking the crosstown bus, paying the fare with your last euro, in order to create an argument out of nothing, when there had been no argument, when there had been universal condemnation of Trump’s performance here.

    We know that endless argument is the goal, so keep at it.

  83. I didn’t hear him saying what you think that he said

    So rather than your usual fuckwittery why don’t you tell us what you did hear him saying like I asked above?

    This is just you crossing the street and taking the crosstown bus in order to create an argument out of nothing

    I don’t think that the sitting POTUS seemingly addressing a violent, armed, far right militia with instructions is ‘nothing’ and neither does Trump supporter Charles, no matter how much you wish to diminish it.

    Thank you for an honest answer to an honest question, Colm. That is of course a possibility.

  84. I actually think careful analysis and dissection of the sentences Trump utters to determine what he meant and what political message he was crafting with his words is to give him credit he doesn’t deserve. I doubt very much he thinks carefully about his utterances. He throws out whatever wordsoup is formulating in his mind and politically analysing the sentences he speaks is like trying to critique the artistic offerings of a chimpanzee let loose with a paintbrush and pad 🙂

  85. His policy of ” always hit back ten times harder “ has been his very public undoing.

    I don’t think that any successful national leader has ever had such an approach.

    Diplomacy does have it’s uses. Politeness, dignity, bearing, too. All completely lost on him.

    Absolutely astonishing that he has ever gotten to such a position.

  86. //I think that when Trump uttered the ‘stand back stand by” comment that he himself wasn’t sure what he was saying.//

    It’s actually a neat turn of phrase (maybe Trump remembered one of his cronies saying it); it clearly means: don’t take any action now, but maybe you’ll have to later.

    It probably was an off-the-cuff remark and, like almost everything else Trump says, not to be taken seriously by any sane person. But I can easily imagine some of those armed right-wing nutters understanding it to mean they are entitled to go into action if, say, T narrowly loses the election and claims fraud etc.

  87. //I don’t think that any successful national leader has ever had such an approach. //

    But your country, and the world, is changing. It’s possibly that, in the soundbite and audio visual age, very many people will be impressed by his performance for exactly the reasons you dislike it.

  88. I predict that last night sinks his ship.

    You can’t possibly recover from a performance like that.

  89. But I can easily imagine some of those armed right-wing nutters understanding it to mean they are entitled to go into action if, say, T narrowly loses the election and claims fraud etc.

    I think that’s a reasonable enough prediction, Noel. If Trump loses next month it’s certainly not going to be a boring hand over.

  90. //I predict that last night sinks his ship.
    You can’t possibly recover from a performance like that.//

    Keep an eye on the figure at the top of the column on the right.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/

    I’m no expert on how polling and statistics work, time lags, etc, but I noticed that Biden’s lead actually declined after Trump’s tax capers were publicised.

    Trump’s big strength as a politician is that he seems to be almost impervious to damage from his own blunders, his gross conduct and all the other blows that would normally floor anyone else.

  91. I didn’t hear him saying what you think that he said. And think that a number of others here don’t think that he said that either. So sue me.

    They have no idea what President Trump said but are happy with the media’s spin on it.

    The media is gaslighting them, pretending that a highly marginal group is significant. That the Proud Boys were mentioned at all in such a debate is the extraordinary thing.

    The gaslighting is getting people to think that they are a bigger threat than BLM/Antifa when the latter has explicitly stated that they intend to end the American way of life, end capitalism and end the nuclear family, and have spent months burning and looting their way across the country.

    “Don’t look there citizens, look at the Proud Boys instead!”

  92. Pete’s ironing his black & gold piping FP and typing at the same time.

  93. Pete

    I know an awful lot of Trump supporters in real life, and awful lot of right wing people in real life, and never once have I heard them bring up the subject of proud boys.

    The fact that this group are part of any national discussion is entirely a result of zealous promotion of them by liberal reporters and lefty media

  94. I predict that last night sinks his ship.

    You can’t possibly recover from a performance like that.

    Don’t be so sure Phantom. A lot of people, and I think you were one of them, said the same thing in 2016 after the ‘pussy grab’ comments !

  95. Not sure that I said that but I sure could have said it

    But that was coarseness. What we saw last night was manifest incompetence and lack of any semblance of manly discipline

  96. It’s a choice between the lunatic and a guy who wants to turn the clock back to pre-2016.

    Poor America.

  97. Nel this is a much better site to book mark
    these guys are the read deal, lots of charts , graphs, comparisons, breaks downs, analysis
    in bite size portions . Yeah its a real joy to visit for stats / meanings / predictors / graphical representation
    Its my betting site analyser before I shoot off to skybet.com 😉

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/

  98. The successful presidencies in the past decades have included Reagan, Clinton and Obama. We all agree on that.

    None of them would ever acted in the way that Trump did last night, not even for a minute.

    Nor would Thatcher or any of your favorite British politicians.

    The repercussions of the sustained freakout will be echoing for a long time.

    With the exception of Idi Amin, have any of us ever seen a more unhinged leader?

  99. Never phantom
    its not too difficult to stick to the format, you have your time he has his time
    Trump evidence a complete lack of self-control and discipline
    he’s simply be expelled from every kindergarten /school / college debating hall up and down the country . I don’t think some people reaslise just quite how much it was a disaster

    They are talking about cutting the mike , they should , the moderator should

  100. He was always like that

    He punched a teacher in elementary school, and wrote about it in his book

  101. For the record Biden brought up the Proud Boys, and said that Antifa was not an organization, but an idea. That’s what set set Trump off on his rant. To me Antifa is ten times worse than the Proud Boys, by their actions. But Trump’s cryptic words are troubling, and more worthy of Papa Doc.

  102. Latest from the BBC

    “Members of the Proud Boys said on social media that (Trump’s) comments were “historic” and an endorsement.

    On the chat app Telegram, Proud Boys shared the debate clip along with posts taunting antifa and incorporating the phrase “stand back, stand by” into the group’s logo.”

    In a way, Trump is as he is and can do no otherwise. A lot of his base are apparently just as programmed.
    So some anger at least must be reserved for the Dem party, which in this dire political situation for their country could bring up nobody better than this old geezer who’s been in politics for over half a century and who has no ideas how to bring the country forward, but seems to think that all will be well if we just get back to the way things were and pretend Trump never happened.

    This is no way to win an election, and if they lose, they bear the blame for 4 more years of the current eegit.

  103. Antifa has actually killed people and has tried to kill a lot more.

    I don’t think that Proud Boys have done anything like that.

    The idea that Antifa is not an organization is pretty clueless comment, but not unheard of in Dem circles.

  104. (CNN)Six in 10 debate watchers said former Vice President Joe Biden did the best job in Tuesday’s debate, and just 28% say President Donald Trump did, according a CNN Poll of debate watchers conducted by SSRS.

    In interviews with the same voters conducted before the debate, 56% said they expected Biden to do the better job while 43% expected that Trump would.

    I am astonished that 28% think that Trump had a good night.

  105. Antifa is not an organization, show me any evidence of a command structure? It doesn’t exist except for the spontaneous gathering and dispersal

  106. It is a secretive and a different type of organization than say the British Army or the Salvation Army.

    All organizations don’t work the same way, all organizations do not put their org chart and vacation policies on the internet.

  107. “The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing the World He Didn’t Exist”

    The greatest trick Antifa pulled on sleepy Joe was convincing him that they don’t exist

  108. BTW

    Who said that an organization has to have a ” command structure ”

    There would be a number of organizations who don’t have that, who work in different ways, without leaders.

  109. Antifa has actually killed people and has tried to kill a lot more.

    I don’t think that Proud Boys have done anything like that.

    So it’s actually a matter of (alleged) extent of violence rather than the actual principle of using violence itself which is vexing?

    Okay, got it.

    For the record Biden brought up the Proud Boys

    I don’t think that caused Trump’s remarks. If it did he’s more stupid than I thought.

    Antifa is not an organization, show me any evidence of a command structure?

    I’ve asked the similar questions dozens of times EP and he can’t. It’s no use trying to apply logic and reason to such fortified emotiveness.

  110. I also needed a bag of popcorn for the Phantom, Paul debate. 😁

  111. The Quakers don’t really have a hierarchy. So I guess to sleepy Joe, and to all the sleepy Joes across the world, they’re not an organization.

  112. Antifa is a movement, made up of a loose collection of smaller organisations. It is not an organisation itself. Why is this even being debated?
    The only people who believe otherwise are Phantom, Trump and PaTroll.

  113. Ah, that’s more than sleepy Paul has given us.

    Sleepy Joe thinks that it’s ” an idea “. Which is true if the idea is to bust heads and burn shit down.

    One hundredth of a millimeter down the golden mile of understanding.

  114. “What’s the frequency, Kenneth?” is your Benzedrine, uh-huh
    I was brain-dead, locked out, numb, not up to speed
    I thought I’d pegged you an idiot’s dream
    Tunnel vision from the outsider’s screen

  115. Ah, that’s more than sleepy Paul has given us

    More dishonesty from the King of obfuscation & doubletalk.

    The guys that the Honourable Member for Bullshittery from Bay Ridge thinks aren’t all that violent:

    https://twitter.com/RealKHiveQueenB/status/1303131660972515328

  116. Antifa is a subversive terrorist group, it’s structure as it is acts as it’s first layer of defence. It’s well funded, well supplied, and has an international communications network. An army of disaffected trust fund brats and they are just the pawns, the fodder.

  117. ‘An idea’ is another way of describing Antifa. It’s a loose collection of smaller groups all united around a single idea – anti fascism.
    Biden was quite correct.
    Trump wants an idea to be declared as a terrorist organisation.

  118. Twitter is Trump media, won’t open it

    I am not praising your friends, not saying that they’re not violent either

    Tell us more about them, you’re the all knowing

  119. Anti fascism to bust heads of those who are nonviolent?

    Sounds very fascist to me.

  120. Antifa is a subversive terrorist group

    So when are they going to be outlawed?

    Are the Proud Boys a subversive terrorist group too?

  121. I am not praising your friends

    You’re a dishonest twat.

    Tell us more about them, you’re the all knowing

    Well, you’re the expert on ‘anteefa’ are you not?

  122. Which organization has the greater record of rioting, arson, assaults, murders?

  123. Anti fascism to bust heads of those who are nonviolent?

    Who said that? Me?

    Antifa is a subversive terrorist group…

    I thought you supported the Constitution over all else? This lifted from our friend Wikipedia’s page on Antifa in the USA

    During the George Floyd protests in May and June 2020, President Donald Trump and Attorney General William Barr blamed antifa for orchestrating the mass protests, but analysis of federal arrests did not find links to antifa.[42] There have been repeated calls from Trump, Barr and others to designate antifa as a terrorist organization which Barr has characterized as “highly organized”.[43] However, academics, legal experts and scholars, among others, argue that antifa cannot be designated as it would be a violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and there is no legal authority to designate a wholly domestic organization.

  124. The Proud Boys don’t exist. They are just an idea.

  125. So it’s actually a matter of (alleged) extent of violence rather than the actual principle of using violence itself which is vexing?

    Okay, got it.

    By all means continue your bullshittery excusing whataboutery though. Your King title is well earned.

  126. Which organization has the greater record of rioting, arson, assaults, murders?

    Ah, so your bad guys are better than our bad guys, because your bad guys have apparently rioted etc less than you’ve been told our bad guys have?

    For someone who is apparently Trump’s biggest critic on these pages, you sure do parrot him a lot. You could give PaTroll a run for his money.

  127. Antifa is a kind of Clockwork Orange organization, that shares the trait of violence most often associated with ” far right ” movements in say South America.

    Antifa Training Film

  128. I’m not in the least bit sympathetic to Proud Boys. Criticize them for all eternity for all I care.

    But boy do a few of us leap to the defense of Antifa every single time over the years. Mocking the way people pronounce them, saying that they’re not an organization, praising the types of pre-emptive violence that they employ.

  129. Oooh, good one! A movie reference and everything! You must feel all clever now, do you? 🙂

  130. Oppose -all- who strike first and -all- who bring violence into demonstrations and -all- civilians who bring firearms into the public square.

  131. I’m not in the least bit sympathetic to Proud Boys.

    Which organization has the greater record of rioting, arson, assaults, murders?

    The implication here is that, while the Proud Boys may well be violent, they are more acceptable to you than Antifa, because you believe that Antifa are more violent. That is being sympathetic towards the Proud Boys.

    But boy do a few of us leap to the defense of Antifa every single time over the years.

    I know it’s Paul you’re gunning for here, but if you’re going to incorrectly refer to Antifa as an organisation every time they are mentioned, then you’re going to be corrected on it every time.

    …praising the types of pre-emptive violence that they employ.

    From memory, only one person mentioned Antifa using violence, and it wasn’t Paul. What he said – and I’m sure he can correct me if I’m wrong – was that Pegida could expect nothing less, coming to an Irish city and telling Irish people who they should allow into their country. Nothing wrong with that. You do it yourself, when you talk about controlled immigration, and that is your absolute right as an American citizen, yet you seem to have this weird idea that Irish people aren’t allowed the same right as you.

  132. Antifa is a simplistic thing to wrap up, here in the US anyway, BLM is the harder one. Antifa are pawns brownshirts nothing more. BLM and the groups that gave it berth go back to the early 60s and are embedded in places that you wouldn’t expect. Long legitimized, but radical and violent just the same but very much a long existing network of violent subversives that has existed for 60yrs.

  133. Oppose -all- who strike first and -all- who bring violence into demonstrations and -all- civilians who bring firearms into the public square.

    We’re back to this again?

    Yes, in principal this is the way it should be. But what happens when peaceful protest doesn’t work? What happens when peaceful protest is met with batons, tear gas, plastic bullets, live rounds etc etc?

    What do you do when the first strike, the violence and the firearms are all coming from the government side? Should we turn a collective cheek?

  134. Mocking the way people pronounce them

    Yep, mocking begets mocking.

    Saying that they’re not an organization

    There as nuch an organisation as a loose association of small groups and individuals affiliated around an abstract idea can be.

    Praising the types of pre-emptive violence that they employ.

    That’s simply a lie and you’re a liar for proagating it. And yes, I use the words very deliberately.

    I’m not in the least bit sympathetic to Proud Boys. Criticize them for all eternity for all I care.

    No, you’d just prefer to keep silent on their violence and diminish it when it’s raised while shitting the bed for months about *’anteefa’ / BLM / communist /socialist / Dem footsoldiers.

    You’re a dishonest hypocrite.

    * Delete / conjoin as appropriate.

  135. If a US version of Pegida or a US version that supported open borders wishes to speak in the public square here, I would support their right to do it.

    And that anyone who tried to push either group off the square would be in the wrong every time, absent violation of the law.

  136. BLM and the groups that gave it berth go back to the early 60s and are embedded in places that you wouldn’t expect. Long legitimized, but radical and violent just the same but very much a long existing network of violent subversives that has existed for 60yrs.

    And did these groups just pop into existence? Did black people just get together one day and decide, “Fuck it, we’ve had enough of this good life and equality bullshit. Let’s burn some shit!”
    Of course they didn’t. The groups you’re talking about may have been formed 60 years ago, but the sentiment goes all the way back to when the very first African slave turned to the second African slave and said, “This is wrong.”
    It wasn’t some hippy-dippy sixties vibe, it was generations of racism and inequality.

  137. What would happen if a crowd of far right Canadians came to Philly and started to aggressively insult native Philidelphians because the Philly guys disagreed with the Canucks telling them who could live in their city?

    Would they be wrong too?

  138. Philadelphia’s not part of the US

    They threw snowballs at Santa Claus once. Really.

  139. Excellent bullshittery, o King.

  140. Ahh the penchant of the Irish……

    Antifa is a subversive terrorist group…

    I thought you supported the Constitution over all else? This lifted from our friend Wikipedia’s page on Antifa in the USA

    First off wikipedia is the last place you’d look for real information on a subversive anything, it itself is subversive.

    Second The United States Constitution in no way condones violence, nor do we as people support your sweet Finnian style of incorporating VIOLENCE into our demonstrations of FREE SPEACH.

    Just the opposite, as violent as America is the very idea of using violence as a political tool is ABHORRANT to the average American. The anger over what has been going on in Portland and other cities is not broadcast to the world so you don’t think that’s the way it is, but it’s palpable in the air. The tension just under the surface is not only viable, but extremely volatile.

    The result will not be a civil war or even a violent civilian reaction at all.

    What you will see happen no matter who wins, once the election is settled the streets will be cleared of the riff raff, and it will be done by the police.

  141. Antifa is a subversive terrorist group

    Again, when are they being outlawed?

  142. The fact that violence is understandable does not mean that it is justified, or that it should be supported.

    If a group has a permit, or is otherwise legally there, no one has the right to take it upon themselves to chase them away.

    I believe that what we speak of here is support for proactive violence against people that some don’t fancy.

    If you have laws and a legitimate government, then you don’t need mobs and yobs to decide who is allowed to speak in the street.

  143. Paul the group doesn’t have to be outlawed. Being in the group in any group is not a crime even if you join the nazi party or the kkk that’s perfectly legal.

    It is the actions of individuals that you prosecute you don’t need to be involving it as an organization, that actually makes it more complicated. It is being tracked on that level, but at any point in time they can roll up a couple of thousand of the top street agitators in a day.

    You cripple the operation by simply caging it’s animals. We have files on every violent street member. All that’s needed is the green light to round them up.

  144. I believe that what we speak of here is support for proactive violence against people that some don’t fancy

    You can ‘believe’ and practice all your arts of sophistry you wish,

    Praising the types of pre-emptive violence that they employ.

    that’s still a lie. Just like when you slyly believed implied that Seimi wanted to meet Allan to cause him physical violence was.

    Paul the group doesn’t have to be outlawed

    You’re telling me that it’s legal to belong to a terrorist group in the US, Pat?

    I find that very difficult to believe.

  145. You did not then and do not now support the first strike attacks against Pegida and others during the day and time in question?

    Or is it that you actually opposed that pre-emptive, previously advertised, violence then, is that what you are trying to say?

  146. You did not then and do not now support the first strike attacks against Pegida and others during the day and time in question?

    Those ‘first strikes’ were a result of aggressive insults and I defy anyone to state that any different outcome would have happened in any city in Europe or the US.

    Or is it that you actually opposed that pre-emptive, previously advertised, violence then, is that what you are trying to say?

    I think that you were the one who brought up ‘pre-emptive, previously advertised, violence’ so don’t try to put any attachment of it to me. Nice attempt at putting words into my mouth but as we can see above, you have form when it comes to inventing things.

  147. The threats to move them off the streets were made days in advance or longer.

    The counter-protests and the threat to disrupt – not just oppose – was spoken of on these pages. I

    Before. Not after. So there is nothing at all to the ” spontaneous anger because someone said a bad thing “

  148. The counter-protests and the threat to disrupt – not just oppose – was spoken of on these pages.

    By who? Did you see any violence before the aggressive insults?

  149. Oh god, another lecture on how Irish people are violent! From Americans!

    PaTroll

    as violent as America is the very idea of using violence as a political tool is ABHORRANT to the average American

    Except when your president uses violence against peaceful protesters in order to have his photo taken outside a building he’s never been in, holding a book he’s never read. THEN, not only is using violence as a political tool acceptable, you will make up stories to try and justify it!

    The result will not be a civil war or even a violent civilian reaction at all.

    So civil war won’t take place because people have demonstrated for equality and an end to over-zealous, badly trained cops shooting suspects, but civil war WILL take place if the government try to take your guns away? Because you personally have been threatening that terrorist action for years here.

    Paul the group doesn’t have to be outlawed. Being in the group in any group is not a crime even if you join the nazi party or the kkk that’s perfectly legal.

    Antifa is a subversive terrorist group

    We have files on every violent street member. All that’s needed is the green light to round them up.

    We? Who is ‘we’? If you mean the police, then you should refer to them as ‘They’. Impersonating a police officer is a crime.
    Unless by ‘we’ you mean whatever vigilante group you may or may not belong to.
    And if all ‘you’ need is a green light, then why haven’t ‘you’ been given it yet? With all the trouble Antifa have apparently been causing, surely ‘you’ would be positively encouraged to go round them up!
    Or did you just make that up?

  150. Let’s look at antifa, that mysterious, ethereal mist which takes material form prior to riots and disappears again to re-form elsewhere under the Universal Force of…….money

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIbhTPrD9Rg

    Project Veritas Confirms George Soros Funds Antifa

    Violence needs funding and the reason why antifa is not designated a terrorist organisation is that to do so would mean that the sources of money are investigated, which would reveal……

    Roosh
    @rooshv
    ·
    2 Sep
    Rick Wiles explains why Antifa is not being shut down.

    https://twitter.com/rooshv/status/1300960971897417738

    Here is a report by Rutger’s University on the organisation of antifa wherein the authors of the report went through the publicly available data on this group, including the materials on their websites and their social media, and came to the conclusion that Antifa is an organized terrorist group. Using that publicly available information, the paper documents that without question, these are “formally organized terrorist groups.”

    https://ncri.io/wp-content/uploads/NCRI-White-Paper-Network-Enabled-Anarchy-14-Sept-1049am.pdf

  151. The publicly armed open carry protesters, right and left, black and white, that have existed in the US in my eyes are all terroristic in nature.

    This is something that should be addressed by both parties.

    They aim to terrorize those who disagree with them.

    In many states, such acts would get you a jail sentence. It should be a federal crime, as should terrorizing public officials or media people like Tucker Carlson by protesting outside the family home, including at carefully chosen times when young children are trying to sleep.

    There has been much upping the ante of threats everywhere you look, and both major parties have been along for ride. No moral clarity on any of this at any time from Trump or Biden.

  152. Phantom, on September 30th, 2020 at 9:17 PM Said:
    The Quakers don’t really have a hierarchy. So I guess to sleepy Joe, and to all the sleepy Joes across the world, they’re not an organization.

    How do you figure the quakers don’t have a membership and an organization

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

  153. You’re telling me that it’s legal to belong to a terrorist group in the US, Pat?

    Up until 2 days ago the KKK wasn’t even on the terrorist list. You’d be surprised how few are. We don’t label domestic terrorists terrorists. That designation inside the US ties Law Enforcements hands. Terrorist organization are the domain of our military which are not allowed to operate inside the US.

    You don’t understand the Legal and Law Enforcement Structure of the US.

  154. We? Who is ‘we’? If you mean the police, then you should refer to them as ‘They’. Impersonating a police officer is a crime.
    Unless by ‘we’ you mean whatever vigilante group you may or may not belong to.
    And if all ‘you’ need is a green light, then why haven’t ‘you’ been given it yet? With all the trouble Antifa have apparently been causing, surely ‘you’ would be positively encouraged to go round them up!
    Or did you just make that up?

    do the letters FO mean anything to you ?

    I am not a police officer, I am not an intelligence officer, I have never claimed to be one, I have never claimed to speak for them.

    I am the product of being raised in an over 100 years of tradition of hunting Humans. For over 5 generations my family has specialized in hunting the violent members of our society. If you want to dismiss my knowledge you are more than welcome to do so.

  155. Phantom, on October 1st, 2020 at 12:38 AM Said: Edit Comment
    The publicly armed open carry protesters, right and left, black and white, that have existed in the US in my eyes are all terroristic in nature.

    This is something that should be addressed by both parties.

    They aim to terrorize those who disagree with them.

    Phantom a question.

    At any of the armed protests both left and right can you point to one that turned violent?

    Please include links.

  156. EP

    emerald Pimpernel, on September 30th, 2020 at 8:54 PM Said:
    Antifa is not an organization, show me any evidence of a command structure
    ?

    The Quakers don’t have a hierarchy. There are no Quaker priests, there is no Quaker pope.

    So- no command structure, your standard. Yet the Quakers, who I respect, are an organization by anyone’s standard.

    You can be very organized without a system of formal leadership.

  157. beyond his grasp Phantom

  158. Patrick

    I didn’t say that they have turned violent.

    I say that implied and in some cases verbal threats were made.

    A civilian who open carries at a tense demo is sending a message, and the message isn’t to have a nice day.

  159. true

  160. EP is OK, but he’s not correct here

    Even in formalized organizations, the strongest leaders can be those who are not official leaders at all.

    It’s not all the boss telling underlings what to do. Not in good organizations anyway. Sometimes the junior person tells the boss what to do. Very many ways to organize a group for good or ill.

  161. oh I like EP, but he is confused

  162. Too many hockey games

  163. 🙂

  164. From WP letters

    Deborah Williams
    On a non political side note; having for years worked with families, if this is the presidents best public persona, I have empathy for how he treats behind closed doors, his immediate family ️ ☹️

    Linda Renner
    Did you notice the difference when Melania walked up to bonespurs and Jill walked up to Biden. World of difference. I bet Melania has the divorce papers ready.

    Susan Ward
    Deborah Williams meh. Only one I pity is Baron. The rest are old enough to have made their choices

    Deborah Williams
    He’s a classic abuser. He abuses everyone. His behavior last night was straight out of the psych textbook. That he wields the power that he does should terrify everyone

  165. As a person I find Trump repulsive.

    I’ve dealt with people like him most of my adult life and as much as I am pleased by the things he has accomplished for the cause I find him and those of his ilk so personally detestable that the need to bath after being in their presence is overwhelming.

  166. Yes

  167. Tom I will support Trump because he has earned my support by his actions. He kept to his word on the judges, and he has been the best foreign policy president we have ever had. Now that is purely my opinion, based on my views of the world.

    However I would not share a private drink or a meal with the man. I find him offensive.

    This is something our euro comrades can’t seem to grasp how I can hold both views, but I know you do. How many powerful business people have you dealt with that are accomplishing great things, good things, but who are just total assholes?

    Personally I’ve met more than enough, and Trump falls into that group.

  168. The publicly armed open carry protesters, right and left, black and white, that have existed in the US in my eyes are all terroristic in nature.

    This is something that should be addressed by both parties.

    This is a particularly US problem, which you need to solve yourselves. It doesn’t need to be addressed by two political parties, it needs to be addressed nationally. It’s like a mental illness which afflicts all levels and branches of your society.

    We don’t label domestic terrorists terrorists.

    Well maybe you should, because if you don’t:

    That designation inside the US ties Law Enforcements hands.

    that happens.You live in a bizarre world, where an entire organisation or group can carry out terrorist actions but not be regarded as terrorists, but police can shoot one, unarmed suspect 7 times in the back from point blank range and say that it’s fine to do so.

    Terrorist organization are the domain of our military which are not allowed to operate inside the US.

    Then your police are useless. If they are unable to uphold the law – and I think we can all agree that terrorists are breaking the law – then what purpose do they serve?

    do the letters FO mean anything to you ?

    You miss FewsOrange and agree with me that his banning a couple of weeks ago was completely uncalled for?

    I am not a police officer, I am not an intelligence officer, I have never claimed to be one, I have never claimed to speak for them.

    You kind of did, with the ‘we’ thing. In fact, you kind of do, an awful lot.

    I am the product of being raised in an over 100 years of tradition of hunting Humans.

    Wow. When I read that, I imagined you writing it, and saying it in your own head, but in Liam Neeson’s voice!

    For over 5 generations my family has specialized in hunting the violent members of our society.

    Good for them. But:

    If you want to dismiss my knowledge you are more than welcome to do so.

    I do. I do reject your ‘knowledge’ here, because being a police officer is not something that is passed genetically from one person to another. Being a police officer is not something you acquire through Osmosis. You did not pick up all the traits of being a police officer by dint of your grandparents and great-grandparents. If this was how police officers were created, then Shaquille O’Neal, Lou Ferrigno and Dennis Ferina would all be police officers, not sports and film celebrities. Plus, we would have been spared all those awful Police Academy movies! You did not train as a police officer and you didn’t become a police officer, so it’s quite reasonable of me to reject your ‘knowledge’ on the subject.

    The Quakers don’t have a hierarchy. There are no Quaker priests, there is no Quaker pope.

    So- no command structure, your standard. Yet the Quakers, who I respect, are an organization by anyone’s standard.

    There are several different strands of ‘Quakerism’ within the Quakers, but they do have a hierarchy. They have pastors who coordinate their meetings. Also

    Friends World Committee for Consultation (FWCC) is the international Quaker organization that loosely unifies the different religious traditions of Quakers; FWCC brings together the largest variety of Friends in the world. Friends World Committee for Consultation is divided into four sections to represent different regions of the world: Africa, Asia West Pacific, Europe and Middle East, and the Americas.[124]

    Various organizations associated with Friends include a United States’ lobbying organization based in Washington, D.C. called the Friends Committee on National Legislation (FCNL); service organizations such as the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), the Quaker United Nations Offices, Quaker Peace and Social Witness, Friends Committee on Scouting, the Quaker Peace Centre in Cape Town, South Africa, and the Alternatives to Violence Project.

    They most definitely are an organisation, with committees etc.

    Can I just say at this point, PaTroll and Phantom, that I have found your mutual appreciation society tonight to have been quite touching? It’s so sweet 🙂

    As a person I find Trump repulsive.

    I’ve dealt with people like him most of my adult life and as much as I am pleased by the things he has accomplished for the cause I find him and those of his ilk so personally detestable that the need to bath after being in their presence is overwhelming.

    This is the strongest you have ever been Trump on these pages, and had you done it sooner, people would have applauded you for it. It’s basically what Charles has been saying from the start, and his opinion has been respected by all because of his openness, whereas everyone argued with you, because you jumped to Trump’s defence every time. The worst you were willing to say was that he was a ‘Carney Barker’, which is pretty weak. In fact, your new pal, Phantom, would have been one of your most outspoken critics, constantly pointing out – correctly – that you never criticised Trump.

    There may be hope for you yet, PaTroll.

    Anyway, bedtime. Night all

  169. Wow…. lets just address this part first.

    I do. I do reject your ‘knowledge’ here, because being a police officer is not something that is passed genetically from one person to another. Being a police officer is not something you acquire through Osmosis. You did not pick up all the traits of being a police officer by dint of your grandparents and great-grandparents. If this was how police officers were created, then Shaquille O’Neal, Lou Ferrigno and Dennis Ferina would all be police officers, not sports and film celebrities. Plus, we would have been spared all those awful Police Academy movies! You did not train as a police officer and you didn’t become a police officer, so it’s quite reasonable of me to reject your ‘knowledge’ on the subject.

    Seimi, I was trained from the time I could walk to follow in my family business. Now whether that was a right thing or a wrong thing I can’t answer for you or even for me.

    Now you can look at things from a hollywood movie if you choose, it may be the only way to view it from the outside.

    My father, My grandfather, my great grandfather, and their sons plus a couple of daughters have been specialists for over 100 years. Even among cops there are specialists. Nothing is inherited through the genes in this. My family has made their living in this country tracking down and caging or killing very bad people.

    These are skills, not traits. By the time I was 16 I had already studied and mastered 3 different forms of hand to hand combat, and could disassemble and reassemble a 45 in less than 90 seconds, but more important I was taught how to do a forensic trace of person. Habits, patterns, behavioral quirks, locational and personal connection tracking.

    My life path was laid out for me. A term in the military, the police academy, and a predesignated path on the force in the organized crime unit. This is what my family does in 4 cities in the country in 2 of them for over 100 years.

    When I got out of the military and was waiting for my slot at the academy the side of a building collapsed on me. Took me 3 years to learn how to walk again, but it took away the career I was trained my whole life for.

    I am not a fanboy, or a wanna be. One of the hardest regrets of my life was getting past the fact that I would never be able to follow the path that was rightfully mine.

    From the outside world my upbringing could be viewed the same as that of a cult. I know that and I accept it, as anyone raised the way I was would, to the rest of you I seem like a phanatic loon. I am anything but. Was I brainwashed…. would I know if I was? You can make that judgement, being on the inside of how I was raised I can’t.

    There will always be those who prey on the weak. My family makes it’s living preying on them. It’s who we are. It’s who we’ve always been and who we teach our children to be.

    When I speak of tactics, intelligence gathering, policy and procedure it’s not speculation, it’s not from a magical osmosis. I was expected to follow and eventually replace my father at the command level, as my father replaced my grandfather.

    Does that make me f’d up in the view of most people? Probably, but doubting me when I talk about these things… lol your loss.

  170. now for this……

    As a person I find Trump repulsive.

    I’ve dealt with people like him most of my adult life and as much as I am pleased by the things he has accomplished for the cause I find him and those of his ilk so personally detestable that the need to bath after being in their presence is overwhelming.

    This is the strongest you have ever been Trump on these pages, and had you done it sooner, people would have applauded you for it. It’s basically what Charles has been saying from the start, and his opinion has been respected by all because of his openness, whereas everyone argued with you, because you jumped to Trump’s defence every time. The worst you were willing to say was that he was a ‘Carney Barker’, which is pretty weak. In fact, your new pal, Phantom, would have been one of your most outspoken critics, constantly pointing out – correctly – that you never criticised Trump.

    You are blind.

    From day one this has been my attitude. I said repeatedly if he was found guilty of anything I would be first to hand out the pitchforks and torches.

    President Trump has been investigated deeper and more thoroughly than any politician in American History and in spite of what you’ve convinced yourself he has been found not guilty of ANY crime.

    The investigation has instead revealed a massive well orchestrated plot to frame him and then undermine and destroy the Presidency of a fairly elected man.

    I don’t care if he pees on the White House lawn like Carters brother Billy or picks his ass and then his nose on national tv….. I will stand with any man who is being falsely accused be he Trump or Obama. You never heard me say anything about Obama’s birth or race.

    I base my criticism on what these men do. John McCain was scum because he spent his entire political career fighting against the first amendment. He was a traitor to his oath to uphold the Constitution.

    That and right and wrong dictate me defending someone. I honestly don’t care what someone has to say or whether or not I agree with what they are saying, but I will fight to the death for their right to say it.

    Trump is a carney barker. I have said this from day one, but he’s the most honest person to ever serve. Mueller proved that.

  171. lol
    pat walks it back, just like Trump on the proud boys
    if you can’t see Trumps dishonesty in almost everything he says
    why have fact checker found 20,000 false statements !

  172. Wow…. lets just address this part first.

    All you did was re-tell your origin story again. It’s like reading Spider-man comics: every once in a while, the writer feels it necessary to tell the hero’s backstory again, in case new readers have joined and need to be filled in on why this guy in Spandex is able to walk up walls.
    Look, I’m not dismissing the skills you may have acquired from other family members, but the bottom line is – you did not train as a police officer. I am truly sorry that your life plan was disrupted in the manner that it was, but the harsh reality is that it was disrupted. You did not get to attend police academy; you did not pass training; you did not qualify as a police officer; you are not a cop.
    I’m not writing any of this to have a go at you. Many people’s plans are disrupted like this, and they have to go in a new direction, but 30 years later, they don’t get to say, “Well, for the past 25 years I have been a bus driver, but really I’m a neuro-surgeon, because that’s what my Dad, grandfather and brother all did, and they talked to me about it when I was 16.”

    I fully accept that in terms of understanding the policing community and their procedures, you are the best-placed person to impart knowledge here, but in terms of forensics etc? No thanks. That would be like expecting Noel to be able to explain the history of Bayern Munich football club, just because he lives in Germany.

    now for this……

    Troll, the only one who is blind here is you. You have blindly defended Trump’s words and deeds since he won the Republican nomination. Yes, you have called him a Carney Barker, and yes you have over-dramatically written about pitchforks etc. But you have never once criticised anything he has done. You may say the things above about him, but always with the caveat “IF he is found guilty!” You’re defending him blindly now, FFS!

    …but he’s the most honest person to ever serve.

    No he isn’t! There is nothing honest about Donald Trump! This has been shown to be true time and time and time again on these pages! There are pages and pages on the internet devoted to calling out his lies in the four years since he won the nomination and the presidency. Just those four years! There are accounts of his underhanded business practices and dealings from before that; of his philandering and numerous marital infidelities. The list goes on and on, but not once – not once – have you, an apparently good Christian with solid Catholic faith, felt moved to call him anymore than a Carney Barker. The only other person to so blindly defend him here is Pete Moore, and at least in his case we are fairly sure (but ONLY fairly sure!) that he’s doing it to take the piss out of people!

    You have every right to support whomsoever you wish, but don’t insult others’ intelligence by saying one thing, yet claiming another.

    “To thine own self be true.”

  173. Noel and seimi,

    I wonder if Pat is a relativist which would have him defend Trumps 20,000 lies
    Its quite popular to hold the post modernist position these days that Truth is only True for you, and you must respect my truth

    without a yard stick, and agreed set of standards, a moral compass you can’t hold anything up to the light for examination. This is part of Trumps evil genius in that he had eroded all the norms, bent all the rules, ignores the rules, is contemptuous of the rules, but rather than calling him out for it, the blind follow the blind .

  174. seimi
    O/T

    The Irish Supreme court has ruled that the bread served at Subway – a US sandwich food chain with branches in more than 100 countries – cannot be defined as bread.

    The bread’s sugar content – five times the qualifying limit under the act – means that it falls outside of the legal definition of a staple food. The ruling included white and wholegrain bread. The definition serves to differentiate bread from other baked goods.

    Rebellion is still Alive .. Chuckie ArLa

  175. //The Quakers don’t have a hierarchy. There are no Quaker priests, there is no Quaker pope//

    But they do have a defined membership & structure regarding meetings and commitees etc, yeah?

    Please show me ‘anteefa’s

    //Terrorist organization are the domain of our military which are not allowed to operate inside the US//

    You’re telling me that terrorists in the US have been arrested and terrorist plots in the US have been foiled by the military? I find that extremely hard to believe.

    The simple fact of the matter is that ‘anteefa’ haven’t been designated as a terrorist organisation.

    //I said repeatedly if he was found guilty of anything I would be first to hand out the pitchforks and torches//

    He was found guilty of embezzeling millions of dollars from charitable foundations for self enrichment and you attempted to write it off as an accountancy error.

  176. this backs up all your points paul

    Trump Can’t Designate Antifa — or Any Movement — Domestic Terrorist Organization

    As some nationwide protests have turned violent, President Donald Trump pointed to the anti-fascist movement antifa, claiming: “The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organization.” But there is no such official federal designation for domestic terrorism organizations.

    Experts cited other reasons a designation — even if it were made possible — would be difficult or questionable. Antifa isn’t one organization but rather an umbrella term for far-left militant anti-fascism groups.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/trump-cant-designate-antifa-or-any-movement-domestic-terrorist-organization/

  177. ” Yet the Quakers, who I respect, are an organization by anyone’s standard.”

    Except they aren’t. Quakers are a movement, but there are actually many organisations within the Quaker movement. There is no single unifying structure.

  178. This is a silly and pointless discussion. We all more or less know what “antifa” is and whatever aims and actions are occasionally ascribed to antifa activists. That’s more or less settled.

    What label you then put on antifa, whether a movement, an organisation, political party, group or idea, is irrelevant. But this irrelevance for some reason seems to be vitally important to you.

    Much more interesting is how groups, and later organisations, emerge. The way, for example, the Provisional IRA or the very successful Bosnia Militia emerged in their respective conflicts tells you a lot about society under stress and individual and group psychology.

    Unually there is no conspiracy and no central planning at all. A person gets a certain idea from the circumstances in which he lives, then chats casually with his acquaintances, they plan a modest local action…. When this happens to a critical extent in various places at the same time a movement is born. Later someone may get the idea of coordinating efforts, which could in turn evolve into a structured organisation. It tells you a lot IMO about the nature of NI that certain Republican groups were carrying out attacks in various locations before they were contacted by and eventually joined the IRA.

    This was one thing Unionists, for example, failed to recognise and thus for so long failed to understand the nature of the conflict. Like Phantom here, they preferred the simplistic notion of a conspiracy by a fixed organisation and totally missed the point.

  179. lmao….. so I’m like reading a comic book, but I guess your like reading Tolstoy… War and Peace because you were raised by oppressed victims of British Imperialism viva the revolution….. lol what a maroon…..

    Like I said Seimi you are free to dismiss anything I say about anything.

    but don’t try to mask your ignorance with insults, because you’ve chosen to be ignorant.

  180. Good post Noel.

  181. What ” simplistic notion “?

    I’ve never said that antifa is simple, and I’ve not used the word conspiracy when speaking of them, and I’ve not said fixed, or rigid, or anything like that about them.

    I’ve said that they’re organized, organized in quite a different way than traditional hierarchical organizations-a comment made many times, which has not been responded to over the years here.

    If you guys wish to continue to believe that they’re just random groups of wild and crazy bros who just happen to do the same things in the same ways in multiple places over time, without any coordination or cross training at all across geographies, then by all means continue to believe that. We disagree.

  182. In what manner are they organised? And who is doing the organising?

  183. Loosely.

    It is organized by those who belong to the cells/chapters.

  184. But what form does that loose organising occur? What is being organised? How is it being organised?

  185. When I see gravity, I know that gravity exists, even though I may not know how it works.

    I see organized, at some level, and criminally violent activity. Do we at least agree on that?

    And organized activity is by definition not spontaneous.

    We have numerous admirers of the this group here, you may wish to ask them about the specifics.

  186. “I see organized, at some level, and criminally violent activity. Do we at least agree on that?”

    No. I would disagree in many cases that the criminal activity was organised. It seems to be relatively spontaneous.

    “We have numerous admirers of the this group here, you may wish to ask them about the specifics.”

    I don’t think there are numerous admirers. And if they are numerous maybe you can give me their names?

  187. Let it rest.

    Let the facts and discussion threads of the past few years speak for themselves.

    I condemn Antifa, and I criticize those who make excuses for them, and those who make word salad defenses for them.

    There will be no consensus here on this.

  188. “Let the facts and discussion threads of the past few years speak for themselves.”

    Let the facts speak for themselves. I’m simply asking for those facts.

    “I condemn Antifa, and I criticize those who make excuses for them, and those who make word salad defenses for them.”

    And those who ask your for pesky trivial things like facts and evidence.

    Who are the numerous admirers? Please name names. It isn’t difficult.

  189. Let’s see which perky violence defenders pop up on this very thread, Seamus.

    They will give you the answer themselves.

  190. “They will give you the answer themselves.”

    You are the one who said there were “numerous admirers”. Who were you talking about? Can you name names please? It isn’t a complicated question. Why are you hiding behind a vague reference, like numerous admirers, instead of naming names? Is it because you know you are talking absolute nonsense?

  191. Troll

    I made no attempt to insult you. If you feel insulted by what I wrote, that’s something you should examine within yourself.

    Noel

    The subject may not be of great interest to you, but it’s something that has been ongoing for a while now, and increasingly involves snidy little comments from certain posters, who will throw around comments like ‘perky violence defenders’ but don’t have the balls to answer the question they have been asked twice now.
    The King of doublespeak and obfuscation indeed.

  192. I am not a supporter of riots, but the rioters are just using the protestors as cover for their criminal behaviour the same way some people use hurricanes and tornado’s as cover for their criminal activities

    at some point as Noel points out it may gel into an organization but for now ANTIFA is just an idea. Every single person on the street is not a looter or a member of antifa

  193. An idea that has own websites and facebook pages.

    Those sites are run by Casper the friendly Ghost I imagine

  194. Conservatives have websites and facebook pages. Conservatives have organised actions. Are conservatives an organisation or an ideology?

  195. Those who organize actions are organized, Seamus.

    You’re way too smart to be doing this.

  196. “Those who organize actions are organized, Seamus.”

    Organised. But not an organisation. Are conservatives an organisation or an ideology?

  197. “You’re way too smart to be doing this.”

    Any update on who those “numerous admirers” are?

  198. //I see organized, at some level, and criminally violent activity. Do we at least agree on that?//

    Well, I think we must all agree that there is criminally violent activity on the streets of many American cities, and nobody can condone that.
    I also agree that these rioters have caused infinitely more damage and intimidate more people than any “Proud Boys” have.

    But we don’t agree on the “organisation” bit. You claim “antifa” is an organisation, but you haven’t be able to give any indication of that, despite Seamus’ repeated requests.

    What I’d like to know: why is it so important for you that it is seen as an “organisation”, why have you been claiming that for so long here? What difference does it make, for the store owner, the city or for anyone else? If my dad’s store was attacked by a gang of thugs, fuelled by their own moral vanity, I don’t think I’d care whether or not there is any structure behind the arsonists or whether they have their own website and Instagram account. Simply what they do is clear to all and it’s bad enough.

  199. There is organized activity

    That involves a degree of organization

    The evidence is right there on your TV screen

  200. “That involves a degree of organization”

    No it doesn’t. If I agree to meet my brother at 3 o’clock to go to the pub then that is organised activity. Have we formed an organisation?

  201. Have fun with this.

  202. “Have fun with this.”

    How about you answer even the most basic questions?

    Your unsubtle attempts to avoid questions, to avoid answering questions, shows nothing more than you have no answers for them. But instead of being a man and admitting that you are playing these silly games.

  203. Well said Noel. I recall you recently explaining that your teenage son gave his analysis on ‘anteefa’ that ‘everyone knows’ Perhaps you could repeat it for the benefit of the Honorable Member for Bullshittery from Bay Ridge?

    I condemn Antifa, and I criticize those who make excuses for them, and those who make word salad defenses for them

    Yes, what you also do is invent fallacies about those challenging your claims, as you have done numerous times on this thread alone with the latest being the characteristically sly, passive aggressive ‘perky violence defenders’ above.

    Let’s be clear on this, much of the sparks regarding ‘anteefa’ here have been regarding the unproven claims you have hysterically made with others, including myself, having the audacity to challenge your authoratitive expertise on the subject.

    Much of the rancour in these discussions has been as a result of your attempted cutness when avoiding difficult questions, including but not limited to cryptic references in order to stonewall discussion, corwardly passive aggressive references to people when you haven’t had the balls to put a point directly, sly innuendo, ignoring blatant hypocrisy and blatant invented untruths about people when you haven’t been able to counter issues & points. Indeed, you have suggested others have wanted to meet comentators here in order to inflict physical violence on them and have variously accused me overtly & covertly of belonging to ‘anteefa’, supporting and defending rioters, looting and the general use of violence all because I’ve challeneged your hysterical bed shitting.

    You’re right, there wil be no consensus here. It’s impossible to reach consensus with such abject dishonesty, fallacy and deliberate subterfuge.

  204. Really a website makes them an organization?

    Last time I checked any yahoo can buy a URL

  205. I’m trying to put on my objective hat here. I have heretofore thought of Antifa as an organization. But are they really? They may be a group of like minded individuals who use social medial to coordinate their activities without having actual command and control capabilities. But they are more than just an idea.

    It’s like ATW. We use social media to sometimes coordinate meetups. That coordination does not prove command and control by DV.

  206. There is not known to be command and control, and I’ve said that a number of times.

    This is a different type of organization, as are other terrorist groups that don’t care to be infiltrated.

  207. There is a loose association here of those from different countries who have justified various forms of political violence, who communicate with each other to discuss ideaology, politics and political tactics as well as arranging gatherings in real life.

    I hereby designate ATW an international terrorist organisation.

  208. //This is a different type of organization, //

    Phantom, for the third time now: Why is it so important for you that they be seen as an “organisation”? Why have you been pushing that point here so long?

    //They may be a group of like minded individuals who use social medial to coordinate their activities //

    That’s it.

    It’s probably also the case that most of the violence is being done by disgruntled black youths who have never heard of “antifa”. They are out to avenge some real or perceived discrimination, or just for recreational purposes.

    Actually, it’s just occurred to me (seriously). Phantom, by claiming antifa is some structured organisation (and, yes, an organisation planning subversive or illegal acts is a conspiracy, despite your denials), do you want to draw attention from the incidents that triggered these riots, cops killing blacks? If there were an organisation behind it, then they’d be the ones pulling the strings and the blacks would be just patsies, so we needn’t concentrate on black rioting, or its causes.

    Any sensible person will see it for what it is: blacks rioting when a black is killed by a white cop, and this is more than welcome for certain white kids who join in to strike a blow at what they see as an injust or fascist society. The same thing has been going on for generations.

    Remember the White Panthers and the Detroit riots in the 1960s. Or even the café revolutionaries on the Rive Gauche in Paris positioning themselves as the vanguard of a workers’ revolt in Paris in 1968.

    Relax and listen to this masterpiece. Apparently Bowie got the idea from Iggy Pop who’d witnessed these guys in action in Detroit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSKIpkbXPU

  209. Relax and listen to this masterpiece.

    If it’s relaxation you want close your eyes and listen to this, Yeats beautiful words put to beautiful music:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBPF9sJR13A&ab_channel=ChristyMoore-Topic

  210. It’s not ” important to me “.

    They’re an equally evil entity, like the KKK or Skinheads, no matter what how they are formed.

    Consider the remote possibility that those who claim that they are not organized in any way may not be correct, consider the possibility that Trump and Barr are correct on this one thing.

  211. or Skinheads

    Another perfect example of more ignorant prejudice:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGXa3vgeF4&ab_channel=fortunatehobo

  212. //It’s not ” important to me “. //

    That’s just not believable. If it isn’t important to you whether they are seen as an organisation or not, then ask yourself why you’ve been pushing this interpretation for months now on this site, usually with a lot of anger.

  213. I don’t care to be shouted down by a clique.

    Antifa would not have reared it’s head at all on this thread, had not Paul made his mocking, personal, comment yesterday that you may have missed. Antifa had not been discussed on this thread before that.

    Some people don’t want to ever let anything go. I’m happy to accept that different conclusions have been reached. Won’t call you a liar for reaching a different conclusion, either.

    Carry on.

    Paul McMahon, on September 30th, 2020 at 5:23 PM Said:
    Thank you for your characteristic honesty Charles.

    For months we’ve seen people shitting the bed on ATW about how violent protestors are *’anteefa’ / BLM / anarchist/ commie / socialist/ Dem foot soldiers.

  214. Paul made his mocking, personal, comment

    Victimhood mantle anyone?

    Do you really want to speak about personal comments?

    As you have done numerous times on this thread alone with the latest being the characteristically sly, passive aggressive ‘perky violence defenders’ above […]

    You have suggested others have wanted to meet comentators here in order to inflict physical violence on them and have variously accused me overtly & covertly of belonging to ‘anteefa’, supporting and defending rioters, looting and the general use of violence

    Because I can list a few on this thread alone.

    And I didn’t bring up ‘anteefa’ you did. I asked opinion on what seemed to be the current POTUS addresing a far right, violent, armed militia with instructions and Charles was the only USer willing to honestly directly address the issue.

    You’re not being ‘shouted down by a clique’ you’re being challanged by a number of people who disagree with your hysteria.

  215. I re-state that the honorable gentleman made the first reference to antifa on this thread.

    It was not necessary to pick at the scab, but that’s what happened.

  216. A reference amongst others isn’t ‘discussing’ You can thank yourself for turning the conversation from the POTUS ‘Proud Boys, stand back, stand by’ comment to your favourite bogeyman.

    After all, it’s only you who’s allowed to raise issues here.

  217. You’re angry that there was discussion of the entity when you yourself brought it up?

    How does that work, please?

  218. I referenced a contrast to attitudes to violence from different groups.

    8:41 PM last night is where you began the discussion about your bogeyman.

    You’re angry

    Ask yourself why you’ve been pushing this interpretation for months now on this site, usually with a lot of anger.

    Yeah.

  219. bogeyman is the correct term here

    a defender of bogeyman is an irrational place to me, its fear/panic driven
    and as we know from studies, you can’t think straight when there is mist in the head

    I’ll share a similiar issue phantom and admit something maybe that might prompt you to be honest here ( its comparative )

    Ok so I admit seamus/DaveA schooled me on transgender issues, I found it hard to get the idea out of my head of some bloke waving his dick around in a women’s toilet.

    Now I was sticking irrationally to that POV, that bogeyman, cause like this anteefa issue with you, I was all shook up, frankly in a panic mode . Full of fear and prejudice.

    I’m starting to begin to let it go , when these guys put a few safety factors in , it calmed me down and I begun seeing things more clearly !

    Does that make sense ?

  220. colm this is a perfect moment for you to walk in and say
    “yeah i was doing that yesterday in my frock and got caught
    -there wasn’t much to see, *ahem* being a lil un 😉