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In the Nick of Time

By ATWadmin On November 7th, 2006

I have scant time for Nick Griffin or the BNP.  The party looks like a collection of football terrace thugs with all the social graces of a potty.  On the other hand, you’ve got to express disgust at the total double-standards of our judiciary.  Griffin tells a crowd of supporters in my neighbouring town of Keighley that Islam is a ‘wicked, vicious faith’; a sentiment millions of people across the UK (including myself) would largely agree with after the hiatus of the last few years.  The meeting was a private one, away from the public gaze.  But for the pig-headed curiosity of a Lefty ‘do-gooder’, Griffin would not now be facing charges at Leeds Crown Court for incitement.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, incitement!!  Remember when New Labour brought forth laws to deal with incitement?  Yet in all that time how many hate-preaching Islamists, who practice an infinitely greater concept of the term than Griffin could ever dream of, have been prosecuted or deported?  As far as deportation is concerned the answer is zero.  How many of Allah’s little helpers, demonstrating in London calling for those who insult Islam to be beheaded, have been tried and convicted?  You guessed it – sweet FA!!  The judiciary is much more preoccupied with the relatively benign rantings of a thuggist cult than the real and present danger posed by Islamic fundamentalists.  The next time I see the Royal Insignia I must look for the words, ‘Allah et mon droit’.

40 Responses to “In the Nick of Time”

  1. Wrong
    Griffin is a rascist, and Islam is not a wicked religion. You’ve not met any muslims Andrew outside the paranoi of the Daily Mail Hysteria.
    I’ve taught muslims in Oman.
    My God you live in an insulated environment, but its all FEAR based. … ohhh such a big scary world.
    Pish
    I pity you.

  2. Percy, it’s all in the koran. Exhortations to murder, subjugation of women and non-believers – it’s all there.
    I’m opening my copy (a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, ISBN 1-85326-782-1) at surah 9, verse 5, page 144 – .. then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war) …
    The rest is just as shocking. Q pagans? Would that be secularists?
    Surah 24, In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, most merciful – verse 2, thewoman and man guilty of adultery or fornication – flog each of them with a hundred stripes; let not compassion move you in their case etc. Yeah, real merciful.
    The entire book is full of commands to murder, kill, and even rape any ‘unbelievers’. How about you, Percy? You’ve displayed your utter ignoarnce. Are you an ‘unbeliever’?

  3. Percy-

    You are insinuating that scepticism towards islam is the result of insularity and yet you appear to believe that the salient point about the global islamist terror campaign of recent years which has seen dozens of countries attacked, is that a british newspaper is spreading ‘hysteria’ about muslims. Talk about a parochial mindset.

  4. Totally agree with Andrew. I never thought I’d feel a shred of empathy with the BNP. Now I do. This is how far Islam and its toxic preachers have driven me.

  5. Exactly Fanny…driven is the right word. We are being driven to extreme anger by the attitude of our newest immigrant community whose religion is Islam. OK not all but enough to raise the hackles. I seem to remember we have countless Chinese immigrants in UK. Quiety working away with their own culture and religious belief…but you don’t know they are there.
    Interesting to see how our judiciary handle this case, especially as the meeting was a private one. I am not holding my breath for a ‘not guilty’verdict.

  6. Allan@Aberdeen, have you EVER read the bible? The bible contains both the new & OLD testament.

    If you tried, do you think you could find equally obnoxious quotes? Women aren’t highly ranked here either. And there’s plenty of suggestions as to what to do with those that don’t practice sex in a certain way.

    Andrew,

    During the Crusades was the Christian religion a ‘wicked, vicious faith’

  7. Ten years ago I wouldn’t have touchd the BNP with a bargepole.

    For the last couple of years the BNP have had my vote and until a credible alternative comes up I shall continue to vote for the BNP.

    I don’t agree with everything they say but they are the only party that addresses the top of the list on my agenda….extremist Islamics in my country.

  8. Chip, I didn’t mean I’d VOTE for those knuckle-draggers. You of course have the right to vote for whomever you choose 🙂

  9. smgiff,
    can you find us a direct quote to Christians in the Bible to beat their disobedient wives or to engage in any form of conquestorial violence ?
    remember that the Bible is a book of History, Instruction and prophesy, the quotes our anti islam commentators take from the koran are direct instructions to conduct, action and purpose and to my knowledge no valid comparison can be found in the Bible.
    The Bible advocates the death penalty, however only in qualified circumstances that involve the most seriously cruel offences, this is very different from a call to the murderous subjectation of those who do not submit to your dictates as we have read quoted from the Koran.

  10. "I’ve taught Muslims"….This old chestnut should have been put to bed long ago. So what, you have met a few Muslims, does this give you a higher state of knowledge on the teachings of Islam? NO.

    The second old chestnut about the Bible. Oh dear, desparation time. THe real question is have you read the Koran?
    Bible: Violent incidents, general lesson of love, peace, tolerance of all within moral framework
    Koran: Violent throughout, general lessons of love within male Islam, inntolerance of non Muslims and how it is proper to oppress them (us). Violence forms part of religion.

  11. ok Fanny give us a viable alternative.

  12. The Torah?

  13. Adherents of islam are taught that the content of the koran is the absolute word of allah (the moon god) and is immutable, faultless and to be obeyed. That’s why there can be no such thing as moderate islam. All the evil and viciousness within that book is to be implemented bt the letter, and that is why they are utterly incompatible with us, whether we be left, right, Christian, Hindu or secular.
    The left don’t have the collective wit to realise this simple fact.

  14. Jaun,

    As much as I’d love to trawl through the Bible for exact quotes, I’ll let this website do my research for me, but it’s pretty much what I remember from the time I read the bible.

    http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm

    The Juicy bits are at the bottom, DEUTERONOMY is particularly good.

    22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

    22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

  15. Allan

    Thats very true – not sure of you have ever read Salman Rushdies take on this:

    The traditionalists’ refusal of history plays right into the hands of the literalist Islamofascists, allowing them to imprison Islam in their iron certainties and unchanging absolutes. If, however, the Koran were seen as a historical document, then it would be legitimate to reinterpret it to suit the new conditions of successive new ages. Laws made in the seventh century could finally give way to the needs of the 21st. The Islamic Reformation has to begin here, with an acceptance of the concept that all ideas, even sacred ones, must adapt to altered realities.

  16. ‘Adherents of islam are taught that the content of the koran is the absolute word of allah’

    Many Christians would be shocked to learn that the Bible is not the absolute word of God. You may also be surprised to learn that many Christians take it as literal truth, that Noah rounded up animals 2 each of the unclean and 7 of the clean (pity the 7th!) and saved us all!

    Which bits are his, and which bits should Christians take with a pinch of salt.

    If the Bible is only a guide, should it be updated for the 21st century?

  17. Alison,

    Didn’t see your post when I uploaded mine.

    Updating the bible would be a good idea, but it’ll never happen. It would cause a schism. The Flood, Garden of Eden etc, are ingrained in many Christians, and no wonder. It’s thought in school as if it were fact!

  18. If the Islamic "kill everyone who doesn’t think the same way we do" brigade aren’t banged to rights and the BNP boys are I’d have thought there would have been a strong case for appeal. Simply use the CPS / Judges reasoning for acquiting or not prosecuting those who take to public areas calling of mass murder rather the ranting to their own wee club.

    Clearly its double standards and if BNP play this right the PR opportunities are massive.

  19. what floats my boat is that the people who shout dhimmi all seem to own and read copies of the koran.

    its sublime.

    the weekly "i dont like the BNP, but…." are not so amusing.

    "But for the pig-headed curiosity of a Lefty ‘do-gooder’, Griffin would not now be facing charges at Leeds Crown Court for incitement."

    if only we’d had do-gooder lefties in the munich beer halls circa 1920s.

  20. "Many Christians would be shocked to learn that the Bible is not the absolute word of God. You may also be surprised to learn that many Christians take it as literal truth, that Noah rounded up animals 2 each of the unclean and 7 of the clean (pity the 7th!) and saved us all!"

    If the bible is the literal word of God, then the Noah/Flood story proves that evolution exists. Discuss.

  21. Which religion currently allows stoning women for crimes. discuss.

  22. ‘But for the pig-headed curiosity of a Lefty ‘do-gooder’, Griffin would not now be facing charges at Leeds Crown Court for incitement’:

    Well, Griffin’s co-defendant said the following:

    "They don’t go mugging Asian grandmas, they don’t go stabbing each other, they don’t go trying to solicit sex off little Pritesh or little Sanjita.

    "They go straight to the whites because they are trying to destroy us and they are the racists," he is reported to have said.’

    and

    ‘I honestly don’t hate asylum seekers – these people are cockroaches and they’re doing what cockroaches do because cockroaches can’t help what they do, they just do it, like cats miaow and dogs bark.’

    Nice chap.

  23. Another nice chap here. Charming display after a brutal murder.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13551181,00.html

  24. Goes to show you shouldn’t fight extremists with extremists.

    Take Northern Ireland’s recent history.

    Er…

  25. hey hey smgiff, you really hit the jackpot there !

    regrettably I said direct instruction, the passages you are quoting are examples of historical law Christians are forbidden to practise

    if I may elaborate,
    the teachings of the bible are to be taken in completion, the relationship of the Christian to the old testament is not one of direct obedience, the law you quote predates the atoning sacrifice of Christ, the sole vector of any contemporary relationship with god, (in Christian terms) the complex theological issue is that Christ in his sacrifice, (sacrifice is another instruction of the old testament, again to quote it in terms of Christian practise or belief being comparable to an intolerant, bizarre or violent social dynamic is disingenuous as this is not an instruction intended for the Bible beleiver to follow, it is a historical reference as to mans actions before god before Christ on the cross bore the punishment for all sin for all time) The position of the Christian is that criminals do not enforce the law and that although the laws you have quoted are valid (they are called "the law of Moses") Christians believe that only god has the right to enforce them, they take this stand form the following passages crucial to understand Christian practise and their relationship with the old testament :

    John 8 – [2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
    [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
    [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what safest thou?
    [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    [8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    [9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
    [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
    [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    also in context, a major quote characterising the Christians relationship with violent punishment one must consider the following crucial passage :

    Romans 12 :

    Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

    "15": Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

    "16": Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

    "17": Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

    "18": If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

    "19": Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    "20": Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

    "21": Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    so given the contextual, historical relationship between the Christian and the old Testament, in that its redolent instructions have been completed in Christ in such a way as to restrict all practise of them, I do not believe that the quotes you are making can be seen as any proof that Christian theology can be labelled with or compared to Islam in terms of its adherents instruction to violent or negative acts,
    the proscribed wisdom that all religion pertains to the same societal dysfunction is purely circumspection with no genuine academic basis.

  26. "Updating the bible would be a good idea, but it’ll never happen." -it all happened years ago and edited and abridged bibles are used by the church of england and other denominations.
    its one of the reasons why paisley makes such a fuss.

  27. oh p.s.-
    as far as I can see N.G. is being prosecuted for labelling a certain group as violent and wicked. he did not say "smash der brains in bhoys" or "I’ll keelhaul tha’ lot ‘a dem" or some such (N.G is secretly a 15th century pirate from Dublin, you know)

    meanwhile members of a certain group the state broadcasting company concedes get preferential treatment (on the grounds of not wishing to exacerbate their propensity to violence) can call publicly for the execution of international figures and openly demand genocide and can furthermore publicly celebrate the murders of civilian men women and children and face no prosecution.
    it doesn’t matter if you like Muslims.
    it doesn’t matter if you hate the BNP
    true justice is objective and should not be restricted by the physical force of any group in society.

  28. "The party looks like a collection of football terrace thugs with all the social graces of a potty"

    Tell me, How many people from the BNP have you met? How many BNP meetings have you been to? if none then how can you make ANY judgement?

    I used to think like you but I decided to give them a chance and asked to go to one of their meetings. I have been going to their meetings for 2 years and I have only seen 1 bald head in the room. I have only heard 1 racist remark ever uttered and that man was booed out of the room.

    If you want to know what the real BNP are like get in touch with the BNP and ask to go to one of their meetings. After you have been to one of their meetings you can then make a judgement based on experience and fact.

  29. true justice is objective and should not be restricted by the physical force of any group in society

    well said.

  30. ‘Which religion currently allows stoning women for crimes. discuss.’

    Is the Bible not current, Alison?

    Juan,

    When I ever come across a Bible that doesn’t include the Old Testament I may agree with you. However, there were quotes from the New Testament also. For example…

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (King James Version)
    34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
    35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
    New book – Same auld story.

    ‘it all happened years ago’

    If the current edition is the modern version God/Allah help us!

    The Koran/Bible – they can keep them both. I’ll stick to worshiping the two Stephen’s, King & Hawking.

  31. ‘true justice is objective and should not be restricted by the physical force of any group in society’

    Agree totally. Although it sometimes relies on Physical force.

    See, when we keep religion out of it we can agree! 🙂

  32. smgiff, your right, women have a secondary role in the church.

    (although if you meet my old Sunday school teacher you’d have some minimals to point it out)

    Christianity takes a "place is in the home" position on the ladies.

    that sucks.

    it is one of the reasons I don’t fall to my knees and repent.

    how this quote proves the duality of a propensity for violence in the Koran and the bible escapes me, it also fails to answer my initial question

    "can you find us a direct quote to Christians in the Bible to beat their disobedient wives or to engage in any form of conquestorial violence ?"

    also why would the old testament need to be left out for my argument to be valid, as I said it is a necessary historical foundation to understanding Christ and coming to god through his son (in Christian terms, he adds swiftly) its practise is redolent in a post sacrifice world, not its revision or meditation upon it…..

    " Although it sometimes relies on Physical force."

    a dangerous concept, good Herr.

    the implementation of punishment requires the old ‘PF’ as does the imposition of your will in any circumstance on those who oppose it. someone’s definition of justice is simply the desired effect in this application.

    the nature of refined justice I feel is in its restrictions of force before and after condemnation,
    those who use wanton violence in pursuit of what they argue is justice are by criminal means trying to impose themselves on others, it doesn’t matter if your imposing what you call justice or what you call a banana tax, your criminally imposing yourself on others.

    common justice should be agreed cordially by those who are subject to it. those who seek to alter common justice by force rather than debate, just as those who attempt to impose an un-agreeable justice system on those who are not directly responsible for crimes, are just imposing themselves, and its imposing yourself, in any circumstance, not justice, that requires Physical Force

  33. "the nature of refined justice I feel is in its restrictions of force before and after condemnation" –
    although i feel in relation to society that this is the most responsible way to impose justice
    in relation to punishment deserved by some criminals i feel the daily stars collective hand on my shoulder when i say ‘hang peadophile scum.’
    :>

  34. ‘a dangerous concept, good Herr.’

    Are you Amish? 🙂

    Don’t think Alison will agree with you here. If a judge passes sentence on a murderer, it may come to physical force to stop the guilty person from escaping justice.

    ‘how this quote proves the duality of a propensity for violence in the Koran and the bible escapes me, it also fails to answer my initial question’

    I didn’t look far in the NT to find an example further than what I picked out. But, the old testament IS part of the Bible, and does hold examples of what you you requested.

    As for the laws in the OT no longer being extant, then which ones? All of them, some? How about the teachings on homosexuality etc. Do you think there’s a concensus among christians that such laws no longer apply?

    Also, If OT teachings are no longer relevant, were the teachings in the OT ever correct? If so, then “our” religion was as bad as the current day Koran. At best it has developed, but if it has developed does that mean God is flawed for having to ammend his teachings?

  35. "Are you Amish? :-)"

    nope

    "Don’t think Alison will agree with you here. If a judge passes sentence on a murderer, it may come to physical force to stop the guilty person from escaping justice"

    "restrictions of force" – not absence of force.

    "the old testament IS part of the Bible, and does hold examples of what you requested."

    "so given the contextual, historical relationship between the Christian and the old Testament, in that its redolent instructions have been completed in Christ in such a way as to restrict all practise of them"

    "As for the laws in the OT no longer being extant, then which ones? All of them, some? How about the teachings on homosexuality etc. Do you think there’s a consensus among Christians that such laws no longer apply"

    I would offer the suggestion that the instructions of the bible and those who chose to read and interpret it are two distinct entities what churches do is not necessarily what the bible says.

    also, if the free p’s are anything to go by, they protest their case that ‘sodomites’ go to hell in a non violent advisory manner, if you think that someone is doing something that will hurt them shouldn’t you tell them, its a hell of a long way from inflicting violence on them for doing it.

    "Also, If OT teachings are no longer relevant, were the teachings in the OT ever correct? If so, then “our” religion was as bad as the current day Koran. At best it has developed, but if it has developed does that mean God is flawed for having to ammend his teachings?" – perhaps i was not clear, in the old testament man was responsible for seeking atonement and justice (let me tell you i am merely trying to espouse faithfully the Christian view point. i do not necessarily agree with them). he therefore had to both inflict and be punished personally,
    when Christ entered the world and he as god sacrificed himself he took on the position of both judge and guilty party, he became the guilty party in your place, therefore he fulfilled these still valid in Christian terms laws in your place, its not that the bible says these things are wrong just that mortal erring man is no judge, thusly the Christian is restricted from all acts of violence in a practical way whereas Muslims are directly encouraged to implement gods (violent) will in a practical way.

    the two religions proscribe in some cases similar punishments (remember Mohammed’s inspirational conversations in the markets with Christians)
    the key difference is that the C’s see it as god duty to administer them whereas the M’s feel it is their duty to administer for god.
    hence very different societal dynamics.

  36. ‘the key difference is that the C’s see it as god duty to administer them whereas the M’s feel it is their duty to administer for god.
    hence very different societal dynamics.’

    I dunno, Juan.

    I think the main difference is that the West pays very little heed, or at best lip service, to the bible and flourishes quite nicely.

    There are exceptions such as the leader of the US. I don’t know whether he acts as he does because he thinks it’ll get him votes or if he truly is a born again Christian (I hope the former – give me an opportunist over someone that thinks God is speaking to him any day!) But, even that country professes a separation of church and state.

    One last thing re the OT & NT. Jesus gives legitimacy to the OT by quoting from it. So, who’s to say that the OT teaching re treatment of women no longer stand? Specifically, why were woman unclean in the OT and not unclean in the NT. In my opinion you’re expecting to much of this agnostic to accept that sacrifice was required BC and that sacrifice wasn’t required post Christ. I understand you’re not advocating such, but pointing it out.

    I still stand by my original assertion, Christians that claim Muslims follow a wicked religion are hurling insults from inside their own glasshouse. It’s just that the glass has been freshly cleaned and they can’t see it! 😉

  37. "I think the main difference is that the West pays very little heed, or at best lip service, to the bible and flourishes quite nicely"
    – a very glib view.

    many western people are not Christian, they do however grow up in Christian societies where law is based on the bible and inherited ethics largely are to.
    these laws were enacted by men how took the bible very very seriously.

    the west flourishes because of this solid foundation and the hard work and natural talent of its inhabitants.

    George bush’s religion does not dictate the policies of his admin team (many of whom are Jews) nor does it dictate us foreign policy or law, it may influence his decisions, it is in no way Americas final authority.
    his brand of Christianity is far removed from biblical instruction anyway I’d say…

    I think my point on sacrifice resides in the last words of Christ on the cross "I am the last sacrifice – it is complete"

    I would suggest that I have as faithfully as I can tried to illiterate the very different context and desired practises of the two religions on the similar sounding quotes issue
    through the krux of my god enforces / man enforces argument as to the key difference in violence capacity. .

  38. the women issue im not so hot on – as a few round here could tell you :>

  39. Andrew

    For once I agree with you. I too have no time for the BNP.

    However, the key phrase in your post is "double standards" – spot on.

    Probably the hardest thing to be in the UK is a White Christian. You have to watch what you say and do (no matter how innocent) lest you upset the bastions of political correctness.

    Although I don’t care for Nick Griffin, his prosecution is a joke.

    If you compare what he said to some of the things that various "Muslim clerics" have said, it was nothing.

    Yet they are left unscathed lest they become offended, while Griffin is charged.

    Double standards indeed.

  40. If you compare what he said to some of the things that various "Muslim clerics" have said, it was nothing.

    You want to listen to what some of our clerics say over here and have been saying for over forty years,one in particular stands out.Is he in jail? no he leads the largest party in the sick counties. NI s own Abu Hamza.