21 2 mins 12 yrs

Splendid, eh?

Up to two years in jail await anyone glorifying communism according to an amendment to Article 256 of the Polish criminal code — the race-hate article — which is likely to come into force next year. The ban outlaws “the production, distribution, sale or possession … in print, recordings or other means of fascist, communist or other symbols of totalitarianism” […]

The revised Bill has already passed the Polish Senate. President Kaczynski has to sign it into law by Monday and no one in Warsaw seriously believes that he will hesitate.

His twin brother, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, head of the opposition Law and Justice party, has made his view clear: “No symbol of communism has a right to exist in Poland because these are symbols of a genocidal system that should be compared to Nazism.”

Well, not quite so splendid because States shouldn’t be in the business of outlawing free speech. However, the Poles know the true place of communism and that they put it on the same ideological and moral footing as Nazism certainly is splendid.

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21 thoughts on “COMMIE SYMBOLS TO BE OUTLAWED IN POLAND

  1. Communism hides behind socialism hides behind liberalism. You can only spot it when someone tells you to pay for someone else’s lifestyle.

    To hate Communism is the real hate-crime. You do not hate someone for being wrong. You do not hate a whole baying hoard for being wrong. Denial of freedom for those who deny freedom does not make them free. That is repression upon the already mentally repressed.

    You expose them to new ideas that make their dormant minds flash awake when they do not want them to. You cast light, not shadow upon them.

    Once you allow these Hate-a-Hate Crimes onto the statute books, the next generation will make it Thought-a-Thought Crimes. Now that is Communism and Fascism.

  2. Communism is an ideology meaning ‘from each according to his ability to each according to his need’.

    There were certainly some atrocities committed in the name of communism as there were in the name of most religions but you cannot ban thoughts. Does this mean students are barred from reading Das Kapital? Is it fine to ban the Bible and the Cross because of the Inquisition.

    This is pathetic and Poland should be ashamed of itself.

  3. I’ve never really discovered the difference between Nazism under Hitler and Communism under Stalin. Both had mass deportations, labour camps and used genocide. Both had strict control over their citizens with internal passports and the like along with secret police and all the paraphernalia of a police state. The young were forced to join their respective youth movements and indoctrinated from a very early age, and certain ethnic groups were banned from any involvement in government or official posts.
    So if you are anti-Nazi, you should also be anti-Communist (unless of course you belong to the Labour Party!)

  4. >>No symbol of communism has a right to exist in Poland because these are symbols of a genocidal system that should be compared to Nazism<<

    Total nonsense.

    What does "should be compared to Nazism" mean? You can compare anything to anything else. You can, for example, compare President Kaczynski to Chancellor Hitler, or to the Man who Broke the Bank in Monte Carlo, for that matter. If the comparison shows that "communism", as bad as it was, wasn’t nearly as bad as the other, then fair enough. However, this fool is probably trying to suggest that Communism is the same as Nazisim. That may appeal to some commenters here, but it won’t get very far with anyone familiar with the unmitigated evil of the Nazi regime and its practices.

    By the way, Pete, the Polish people not long ago elected a latter-day Communist to the position now held by the guy promoting this ban. I fancy local political rivalries have a lot to do with this misreading of history.

  5. "However, this fool is probably trying to suggest that Communism is the same as Nazisim. That may appeal to some commenters here, but it won’t get very far with anyone familiar with the unmitigated evil of the Nazi regime and its practices."

    Why not, on the key points that people generally agree define the Nazis as evil- genocide, death camps, repression, crushing of dissent, expansionism- the Communists were the same. If there is a key difference that means one should be viewed with less revulsion than the other you will have to explain it rather than simply wish the similarities away.

  6. Noel Cunningham –

    However, this fool is probably trying to suggest that Communism is the same as Nazisim.

    In its essential points, of course it is. They are ideological cousins, don’t you know. Strewth, life must have been hard to take since 1989.

    That may appeal to some commenters here, but it won’t get very far with anyone familiar with the unmitigated evil of the Nazi regime and its practices.

    As opposed to communist horrors which were long mitigated by Stalin’s useful idiots in the West. Wakey wakey old son, that commie cat was out of the bag decades ago.

  7. "By the way, Pete, the Polish people not long ago elected a latter-day Communist to the position now held by the guy promoting this ban"

    In Hungary the hammer and sickle and the red star has been banned since the change of the system, a ban upheld both by the right and the former communists. It’s so strict that Heineken had to get special permission to advertise their product (check their can or bottle next time you’re down the offie)

  8. Given the way the communists treated Poland (eg Katyn forest massacre and the way they stood by while the warsaw uprising was crushed) I’m not surprised the Poles want to do this.

    I’m also familiar with the many comparisons between Stalinist Russia and Hitler’s Germany. However can somebody tell me when the former committed (or tried to committ) genocide?

  9. Andy –

    Before WW2 had broken out, Stalin (sorry, that’s cuddly ‘Uncle’ Stalin) starved to death more Ukrainians than all of the victims of the Holocaust. That’s one country, in a few short years in the 1930s alone. Hitler was an amateur compared to the communists.

  10. >>Why not, on the key points that people generally agree define the Nazis as evil- genocide, death camps, repression, crushing of dissent, expansionism- the Communists were the same. If there is a key difference that means one should be viewed with less revulsion than the other you will have to explain it<<

    Ross, there are many fundamental differences.

    Unlike Stalinism, Nazi ideology and practices were all about murder and destruction, and for their own sake. Their ideology necessitated mass murder. Individaully and as a group they glorified in murder and celebrated it (among themselves); they also developed hitehrto unknown ways of murdering that show an absolute dedication to and fascination with the task. A large proportion of their victims were victims merely for being what they were, and no act or acquiescence on the victims’ part could ever have saved them from their fate. Basically the mass murder was motivated by racial hatred, not some expediency or misconceived need.

    The deaths that can be laid at Stalin’s door were quite different. The vast majority of his victims died through negligence and indifference, rather than a definite act of murder. There is a huge difference here from the POV of both morality and law, and I’m suprised someone like you can’t see it.

    Other differences are that Hitler invaded and brought his murder machine to countless countries where there had been total peace until then. He planned to subjugate, enslave and, in the long term, annihiliate most people in eastern Europe and would have done so had he not been booted out. Essentially, Hitler was fully aware he was bringing evil to the places his armies went – that was part of the whole idea , whereas Communism generally believed theirs was the right way and they had to export it. Their record in the lands they occupied was accordingly not nearly as bad as the Nazis’. The Soviets liberated practically all the countries of eastern Europe. As bad as life was there under their rule, it was not nearly as bad as it had been under the Nazis; many countries even enjoyed some kind of relative economic prosperity; their populations were almost all let continue as they were. Again a huge contrast to Hitler. Life under Communist rule gradually got better, under Nazi rule it continually got worse.

    Two simple facts illustrate the differences.
    The Soviets dominated a part of Germany for 40 years, there was no massacre of the people. The Nazis dominated part of Russia was just 3 years, and they murdered millions.
    In Sept 1939, there were tens of thousands of Poles frantically trying to cross from Nazi to Soviet occupation; I doubt if there were very many going in the opposite direction.

    I don’t have time to go into the mass Nazi programmes of euthanasia and forced sterilisation, murder of homosexuals, etc.

    >>Stalin starved to death more Ukrainians than all of the victims of the Holocaust.<<

    Well, Pete, if you want to think and talk like that, let me remind you that in the mid 19th C, Britain "starved to death" over a million Irish people. As you – knowing about this "mass murder" – still consider that era the pinnacle of British civilisation and social justice, you are hardly in a position to point the finger at Stalin.

  11. Noel Cunningham –

    What brazen crap.

    The deaths that can be laid at Stalin’s door were quite different. The vast majority of his victims died through negligence and indifference, rather than a definite act of murder.

    As I said, what brazen crap. Do you think you’re the only one with a history book? Good grief, the cheek of it thinking you can get away with this nonsense.

    Normally you demonstrate a knowledge of communist history that mysteriously fails at the critical point. One example is your background knowledge of the fall of East Germany which is let down by your assertion that the regime really wanted to do the right thing all along twenty years ago.

    But really, sometimes you do tip over into brazen crapness. Just come out with it for once, admit you’re a despot-worshipping commie. You’ll feel much better for it.

  12. It wasn’t just Stalin. Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin himself and many other Communist dictators including the current dictators in North Korea and Cuba were mass-murders.

    If there is something about an ideology that keeps allowing thugs to rise to the top then it is a real problem that people continue to advocate the same system today. And they do. Every Marxist-Leninist party including all the Trotskyites are organized under the method known as democratic-centralism. That is a recipe for dictatorship.

    I don’t think the Poles should be banning symbols. Communism wilts under the light. It would be better if all those who are in favour of it wore their badges proudly like the political dunces hats they should be seen as.

  13. On the tens of millions who died under Stalin’s "negligence and indifference", was the negligence deliberate? What was the purpose of the indifference? How many Germans died when they were expelled from East Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania? Just by asking yourself some questions such as those, Noel, should make a decent person clearer on the true nature of communism. Because, after all, one can’t make a socialist omelette without smashing a few million eggs.

  14. I oppose making these symbols illegal, but it is right and proper to equate the symbols of Communism with those of Nazism.

    The Polish nation suffered terribly under both totalitarian systems. They’ll never be fooled on these issues, unlike some West Europeans, who, from their distance, have never understood the damage that Communism caused their neighbors some hundreds of miles to the east.

  15. Pete

    The difference between Noel’s comprehensive and well explained 9.57pm and your feeble and empty 10.19pm response is glaring.

  16. "Unlike Stalinism, Nazi ideology and practices were all about murder and destruction, "

    That’s unlike Stalinism?

    and for their own sake. Their ideology necessitated mass murder.

    They murdered because of their warped goals, much as Stalin did.

    "Individaully and as a group they glorified in murder and celebrated it (among themselves)"

    Whereas the USSR killed people as an afterthought.

    "they also developed hitehrto unknown ways of murdering that show an absolute dedication to and fascination with the task. "

    Originality hardly seems the big issue.

    "A large proportion of their victims were victims merely for being what they were, and no act or acquiescence on the victims’ part could ever have saved them from their fate."

    Like the Kulaks, or the various ethnic groups- Chechens, Estonians etc- who were deported en masse to Siberia.

    " Basically the mass murder was motivated by racial hatred, not some expediency or misconceived need."

    A substantial part of Stalinist persecution was directed against recalcitrant minorities within Russia. Besides which I don’t see why it is better to kill someone for being a class enemy than a racial enemy.

    "Their record in the lands they occupied was accordingly not nearly as bad as the Nazis’. The Soviets liberated practically all the countries of eastern Europe."

    More Poles died in the Soviet occupied zone than the Nazi one, and there was a reason why the Nazis were initially greeted as liberators by the populations of the Baltics and Ukraine. Furthermore seeing as the USSR were collaborators with the Nazis in dividing up Eastern Europe it is a bit rich to cite the sffering under the Nazis as evidence of how Communism has been unfairly maligned.

  17. "Unlike Stalinism, Nazi ideology and practices were all about murder and destruction, and for their own sake. Their ideology necessitated mass murder."

    Not entirely correct. Both Stalin and Hitler saw mass murder as a means to an end, not an end to itself. The original plans for removing Jews from Europe weren’t to murder them all. The plan was to force them to immigrate, first, ironically to Palestine, and then there was a plan to force them to immigrate to Madagascar. The Holocausted them when, in their opinion, they had no other course to follow. Their ideology was evil, racist and had a callous disregard for human life but wasn’t necessarily murderous, at least before the war.

    "I oppose making these symbols illegal, but it is right and proper to equate the symbols of Communism with those of Nazism."

    Stalin was a brutal, evil bastard but I would agree that there are differences between Communism and Fascism/Nazism. Fascism/Nazism is built around hate, a belief that one people is better than all others etc, while Communism is built on a sense of Equality, if perhaps a warped sense of it.

    "Furthermore seeing as the USSR were collaborators with the Nazis in dividing up Eastern Europe it is a bit rich to cite the sffering under the Nazis as evidence of how Communism has been unfairly maligned."

    Hitler and Stalin collaberated a hell of a lot less than Stalin did with Roosevelt and Churchill.

  18. Hitler and Stalin collaborated at a time that Hitler was not yet powerful. Their collaboration enabled Hitler to fully rearm and enabled both of the murderous regimes to invade a Poland that had harmed neither,

    After Germany’s unprovoked attack on the USSR, the US and UK did indeed align themselves completely with the USSR. As they should have.

    “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”
    Churchill

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