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JUST A DAYDREAM BELIEVER…

By ATWadmin On March 11th, 2010

 

…and a homecoming queen. Did you read about the school in America that has decided to cancel its prom dance after a lesbian student demanded she be able to attend with her girlfriend and wear a tuxedo?

The Mississippi school district’s policy requires that senior prom dates be of the opposite sex. The American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi had given the district until Wednesday to change that policy and allow 18-year-old Constance McMillen to escort her girlfriend, who is also a student, to the dance on April 2. Instead, the school board met and issued a statement announcing it wouldn’t host the event at Itawamba County Agricultural High School in Fulton, “due to the distractions to the educational process caused by recent events.”

Isn’t it a shame that the prom has to be cancelled lest lesbians be discriminated against? 

 

209 Responses to “JUST A DAYDREAM BELIEVER…”

  1. Unlike Britain, it is nice to see that America still have some moral fibre left in its society.

  2. Isn’t it a shame that the prom has to be cancelled lest lesbians be discriminated against?

    It didn’t have to be cancelled – the school board took the view that rather than allow a gay couple to attend, they would cancel the entire thing.

    Nose, face.

    If the board of this public school took the view that they wouldn’t allow a Jewish couple, or a black couple, or a disabled couple to attend would that be ok?

  3. Preventing kids from having harmless fun? Shameful.

  4. Good on the school, if a bunch of arseholes want to make a show of themselves and degrade the event to make a point then why should it go ahead?! Its refreshing to see someone not scared of the ACLU, the scum in the ACLU would take a class action lawsuit against the government on behlaf of Osama their such do-gooders. Its a shame other students had their prom ruined by a bunch of malcontent, whiney gays out on a crusade.

  5. Charles,

    "Its a shame other students had their prom ruined by a bunch of malcontent, whiney gays out on a crusade."

    And there I was thinking they were simply two kids out to enjoy their prom night.

    So tell us more about their "crusade". Are crosses involved? It is Mississippi after all.

  6. if a bunch of arseholes want to make a show of themselves
    Like that other bunch – the Clinton 12 you mean?
    Damn kids causing trouble.

    America still have some moral fibre left in its society
    So if a school said no to Jewish couples would that be a sign of moral fibre too?

  7. Im with Tenpenny on this one, we need to draw the line under what is acceptable and what is clearly a stunt. Wearing a gown and the man a tuxedo is a tradition and part of the experience, when two "heroes" want to strike a blow for the gay community using an important social event like this it just smacks of bad taste.

  8. Mister Winters,

    Striking blows for the gay community, crusades? Did it not occur to you that the two young ladies might be making a personal statement. Like, oh I don’t know, a chap wearing a yellow tux with a purple buttonhole?

    But I suppose that smacks of bad taste as well.

  9. If this school was a religous school then I can see their point because the values and rules of the school need to reflect whatever religion it is attached to but if it is a state school then I don’t see the problem, if two girls want to go to a prom together what is the problem exactly.
    My feeling is that the school by its own stupidity has turned this into a big gay rights issue when they could have just ignored it and the situation would have probably gone away

  10. draw the line under what is acceptable
    I quite agree. Discrimination is not acceptable in any shape or form.

    just smacks of bad taste
    Have you seen what they wear to American High School proms?

  11. They make all the personal statements they want behind closed doors. Why should their personal tastes and "statements" ruin others prom.

  12. Boo-Yeah!! Winters is on the nose, two chicks is wrong and my human rights are being violated having to look at them. Maybe the ACLU can represent me and my class action suit against the gay community for making me cringe.

  13. Jaz,

    "Have you seen what they wear to American High School proms?"

    I hadn’t looked lately to be honest. But now that I do I see that my yellow tux was quite tasteful* after all.

    But hey, why spoil a good intolerant rant with rational discussion?

    * My apologies to any Mississippians that three of those chaps are nigras.

  14. See it really isn’t gay marriage that is objected to, it is gay people. The now they can’t go to dances.

    It is a shame that Mississippi continues to lead the way in intolerance.

  15. Pity;Lesbians and ACLU lead the way in intolerance.

  16. Lesbians at a prom……how uncivilised, America is a christian country with good strong christian values and family bonds, if they want to wear tuxs and hold hands then take a hike to San Francisco and stay there were them and their ilk are welcome.

  17. Please try and explain the logic of your last comment, David. I know nothing about the ACLU, so could not possibly comment on their tolerance or lack thereof, however, how are lesbians now intolerant?

  18. David,

    Oh, it was ACLU that cancelled the prom and deprived the kids of their fun?

    Damn, I must read these posts of yours more carefully. Séimí is confused as well.

  19. Black Mississippians are the most intolerant of all. Why, it seems like only yesterday when they were hanging themselves from trees and frightening good white folks (and the horses).

  20. The school board knew that their discrimination wouldn’t stand up in Court, so they caved and cancelled the whole thing. They are at fault.

  21. They don’t want the event to turn into a freak show. The authorities are entirely in the right.

    Next case.

  22. There’s just nothing some people won’t try for a bit of attention is there? And of course Godwin’s Law is immediately shown to be alive, kicking and draped in pink, cos cancelling a prom night because a pair of butch lezzers (seriously, wearing a tux to the prom? Way to fulfill the cliche there love!) want to spoil the party is *just like* the Klan lynching black guys and putting the pink stars on before shipping the ‘special people’ off to the concentration camps.

    No wonder you hypocritical ‘activists’ give the muzzies a free pass on their homohating. You can recognise kindred spirits in eternal, ridiculous victimhood when you see them, can’t you?

  23. Is the ACLU the school board mahons?

    Rabbi – don’t forget how clumsy those darn black Mississippians were, erecting crosses, then accidentally setting fire to them…

  24. How would one woman, in a tuxedo, turn a dance into a freak show, Phantom? Intolerance…?

  25. That may be how women dress for proms in your town, but it’s not how the dress for proms here.

  26. Phantom,

    What town do you live in, Stepford?

  27. That has to go down as one of the most intolerant statements I’ve read in recent times Phantom. So, it isn’t just naked homophobia with you, it’s naked sexism!?

  28. Pity;Lesbians and ACLU lead the way in intolerance.
    How do you work that one? This gay woman wanted to take her partner to the prom. The prom organisers cancelled the prom rather than allow that. And she is the intolerant one?

    They don’t want the event to turn into a freak show.
    So a woman in a tuxedo is a ‘freak show’? Goodness me, I never realised America was quite so easily shocked.

  29. No, it’s known as community standards.

    I imagine that the women of the community want women to be dressed in women’s attire at a young kid’s special event. And not have it ruined by chicks dressed up as men, or Indian chiefs or whatever.

    This isn’t a Village People concert. It’s a prom. And these people should show a little respect. Its not all about them

  30. Jaz,

    "If the board of this public school took the view that they wouldn’t allow a Jewish couple, or a black couple, or a disabled couple to attend would that be ok?"

    Classic shallow lefty debating tactic! – conflate two separate and different issues. Are you suggesting that being ‘anti-gay’ also means you are a racist, or worse?

    Of course it wouldn’t be acceptable if any of the group you mentioned were banned from attending, – it is sad to see you still fighting and using the tactics and rhetoric the Sixties. That battle was over a long time ago!

    That religion plays a large part among the population of the southern states, it is hardly surprising that they are a tad touchy about such things. School boards in that part of the world generally consist of local residents, and are doing what they think is right ‘for the majority’ of those who would attend. Democracy works at all levels, and not just when it suits an agenda.

    Far from any ‘cutting of noses to spite the face’ – what alternative did they have in the face of an expensive legal challenge, the defence of which would be prohibitively expensive. As these colleges are usually funded locally and get very little state or federal help, they took the simplest step to solve the problem. The ball is in the ACLU’s and the gay couples court.

    Rabbi,

    Whenever the ACLU is involved you can be sure that the whole episode is part of a publicity stunt, which rules out any suggestion that this may be a personal statement. As for eighteen year olds being ‘kids’, – especially Americans, just how naive are you?

  31. Community satndards? Have the school board actually made any statements confirming what you are saying Phantom? Or are these your own personal prejudices shining through?

    ‘I imagine that the women of the community want women to be dressed in women’s attire at a young kid’s special event. And not have it ruined by chicks dressed up as men, or Indian chiefs or whatever.’

    Oh wait. ‘I imagine.’ Just saw that. So it’s just your imagination then. Fine.

  32. Ernest,

    "Whenever the ACLU is involved you can be sure that the whole episode is part of a publicity stunt"

    I can? What’s your evidence for that?

    "As for eighteen year olds being ‘kids’, – especially Americans, just how naive are you?"

    That’s shorthand. Saves me typing "young people" or "eighteen-year-olds".

  33. Seimi

    I suspect that I know America a bit better than you Seimi.

    We’re not all PC automotons . Sorry to disabuse you of any notions you had otherwise

  34. Let’s be quite clear about one thing. The school district has a policy that says prom dates must be of opposite sexes. The tuxedo is not the issue – it is whether a gay person is allowed to bring another gay person to a school prom as their date.

    If that isn’t discrimination then can someone explain why it isn’t?

    Ernest.
    A very good morning to you. They are not separate issues. They are about discrimination. This district has a policy that says you cannot have a gay couple at the prom. If the district had a policy that said you cannot have mixed race, or mixed religious couples, would you support that?

  35. Community standards!

    "The Mississippi school district’s policy requires that senior prom dates be of the opposite sex."

    The school board is surely expected to be part of setting communty standards, and that is just what they are doing. If that policy was as illegal as suggested, then I am sure it would have been challenged a long time ago.

  36. Well said David, Mr Winters, Ernest and Phantom.

  37. Rabbi,

    Old enough to vote – old enough to act responsibly!

  38. ‘The tuxedo is not the issue – it is whether a gay person is allowed to bring another gay person to a school prom as their date. ‘ – Jaz

    Not according to Phantom, Jaz.

    ‘I imagine that the women of the community want women to be dressed in women’s attire at a young kid’s special event. And not have it ruined by chicks dressed up as men, or Indian chiefs or whatever.’

    And he knows America better than me and, I imagine, you.

    ‘We’re not all PC automotons . Sorry to disabuse you of any notions you had otherwise’ – what?

  39. Old enough to vote – old enough to act responsibly!

    Old enough to make decisions about who they would like to take as their partner to a prom.

    I am glad to see that a lot of the other students have said they will boycott any event if she is not allowed to take her partner

    Community standards!
    So if community standards said that mixed-race couples were not permissible, would that be ok? This is the Deep South we are talking about here.

  40. Séimí,

    "’We’re not all PC automotons . Sorry to disabuse you of any notions you had otherwise’ – what?"

    I think he’s trying to tell you he uses an Apple.

  41. LOL Rabbi 🙂

  42. Jaz, – and Good morning to you!,

    Trying to hitch the ‘gay’ bandwagon to previous worthy causes, such a racism etc. by association, really doesn’t work in all cases. In the cases you mentioned, discrimination is unacceptable as the people involved had no choice. In this instance they do have a choice,- whether to push their lifestyle choice in the faces of the school and local community, or to not do so.

    They knew full well going as a ‘couple’ would give offence – they had a choice, different races, religions and the disabled do not.

    Why next you will suggest that a dislike of, and a refusal to serve Brussell Sprouts, is also a form of discrimination! How heinous, would that be.

  43. ‘Community standards!
    So if community standards said that mixed-race couples were not permissible, would that be ok? This is the Deep South we are talking about here.’

    Still fighting the battles of the Sixties! The Deep South is a far different place from ‘back then’. Yes there is still some lingering prejudice, but about as likely to find objection to mixed marriage here as in Belfast!…

    You do like your ‘whataboutery’ don’t you!…

  44. There are few things that anger blacks more than when white trendies try to link the Civil Rights movement to gay political causes. They know the causes are very different – Ernest is correct – race is innate, this is a behavior issue

  45. So it IS a gay issue then Phantom, and not one of dress etiquette, as you previously stated/imagined?

  46. Was responding to Jaz, to be precise Seimi

    It’s both.

  47. Oh, sorry, Phantom. I didn’t realise that a comment on a public site was actually a private one. I do apologise.

    Anyway, apart from saying that this wasn’t a ‘freakshow’, and that it wasn’t a ‘Village People concert’, all your other comments were directed at a woman wearing a man’s clothes, or as you so eloquently put it – ‘chicks dressed up as men’, so I was wondering when you changed your view on this? It appears to have been somewhere around 1.14PM, according to my computer, but I could be wrong.

    Anyway, please go back to your private conversation with Jaz 🙂

  48. It’s a disgraceful action by the school board – a state institution – cancelling the prom is tantamount to bullying the young girl (in effect by attempting to turn the rest of her classmates against her).

    David – you occasionally allude to Libertarian values – I think a rethink here would be useful. This is disgraceful state meddling in the private life of a young citizen. It isn’t possible to coherently stand for the primacy of individual freedom while at the same cheerleading those who would abuse state power to curtail that freedom when we don’t like what someone does with it.

    That position would be more in keeping with socialist or totalitarian than someone who believes in individual freedom.

    The Road To Serfdom

  49. Ernest,

    Still waiting for your evidence in support of:

    "Whenever the ACLU is involved you can be sure that the whole episode is part of a publicity stunt"

    Or were you simply making a baseless allegation? Don’t worry, people do it all the time. Nothing to be ashamed of.

  50. Intolerance is intolerance

    Where is troll and his "the american constitution is the greatest document of mankind" posts? Is it because this is a constitutional issue he doesn’t like?

    The same right to be white republican is the same right to be gay and have a partner and shock and horror go out in public!

  51. Seimi – The ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union. They advocate on behalf of groups/individuals whose civil rights are at issue. Quite often they represent individuals, such as in this case, who are up against the community structure. The ACLU are not a government entity, In general they drive both the far right and the far left crazy because they tend to be absolutionists on issues of free speech, free assembly etc. (so they would support the right of the Klan to rally, and the right of Communists to rally). As an organization they can drive me crazy at times as well, but they are a healthy and necessary component to our democracy.

  52. Thanks Mahons.

  53. Erenst – That particular county in Mississippi may not have embraced the changes that swept the country in the 1860’s, never mind the 1960’s. It is very rural, very isolated and has a sparce population. I imagine this young woman, a freak according to soem simply becasue of her sexuality, can not have too easy a time in that neck of the woods. I applaud her for standing up for her rights. She’s taught her classmates a lesson in real American values that the school board members don’t understand.

    The school boards have a certain level of authority, but that authority does not and should not extend to depriving someone of their civil rights.

  54. Cross dressing is a civil right?

  55. Phantom – The civil right at issue was the prohibition on the student bringing a same-sex date, the cross dressing is the window dressing of the objection.

    Lets put aside the dress code issue, if her date wore a gown they would still object – and that is the violation. I admire the young woman’s tenacity.

  56. Those homosexuals are a cheeky bunch arent they….how can we live in a perfect equal society when clearly we arent all equal. Me and my chums dont want a "fag drag" down shankill road but do not test us. ta ta much love

  57. A woman wearing a tuxedo is now cross-dressing!? ‘kin ‘ell!!

  58. My God, not another insane thread on keeping gays in their place.

    Great comments, mahons.

    >>As for eighteen year olds being ‘kids’, – especially Americans, just how naive are you?<<

    Ernest, Phantom may be many things, but he’s hardly naive.

    Anyway, who’d want to go to a bash that didn’t let this lady in.

  59. I am not surprised really that this took place in Mississippi.

    It is not a place that has a record of tolerance and equality is it?

    Sad that ‘educators’ are miseducating young people.

  60. Allow me to expand on Mississippi’s tolerance levels. The segrgationist poll tax wasn’t abolished by its legislature until 1989. The ban on interracial marriage was lifted in 1987. They have the Confederate flag on their state flag (not a nod to the vague Scarlett and Rhett heritage of The South sentiment but put there in the 20th Century by segregationists).

    Oh and they ratified the 13th Amendment abolishing slavery in 1995. 1995? Yes, that is the date there was sufficient public support to make that bold stride.

  61. There are few things that anger blacks more than when white trendies try to link the Civil Rights movement to gay political causes.
    Like I care. What, did black people get the veto on this?

    They know the causes are very different – Ernest is correct – race is innate, this is a behavior issue
    Please tell me – please – that we are not about to go down the "gay people chose the way they are"? Please tell me we are not about to plumb the very depths of ignorance and stupidity on this subject. For the record – Gay people no more chose to be gay than tall people chose to be tall – or indeed black people chose to be black.

    Forget the tuxedo. That has nothing to do with it. This woman could turn up in a Hardy Amies taffeta ballgown with a tripple-strand pearl chocker and diamond broach. The fact is that if she turned up with another woman as her date, she would not be allowed in. She was also told that if she was with her partner at the dance and it made people feel uncomfortable, then she would be asked to leave.

    THis is is discrimination pure and simple. This woman is being discriminated against because of her sexuality. You would not think discriminating against her because of her sex, or her colour was acceptable – but somehow because of her sexuality, that seems to be okay.

  62. The white, heterosexual male is the most discriminated member of society…..fact!! Wheres my god damn prom….ill sue…dammit ill sue

  63. Wow – what happened to my spelling there?

    choker and brooch… goodness me

  64. Why does Jaz get so many posts through and no one else can??? did he drop a cool thousand in donation to TUV?? Is Mr.Vance pulling a Seymour Baby Doc routine?? Answers

  65. There are few things that anger blacks more than when white trendies try to link the Civil Rights movement to gay political causes

    And Phantom would know because some of his best friends are black!

  66. Haw haw haw

    Listen, observe

    including which was the group that voted most heavily for Prop 8

    Petr, send my your address. I’m going to send you a bill for all the education I’m providing you

  67. LOL all in the one thread, he tells another poster- I know America- you don’t;

    then in the next breathe- he speaks for Black America.

    then, he’s an expert in women’s clothing choices.

    You couldn’t make it up.

  68. Shut up Pinky — you stand with the Ayatollahs!

  69. including which was the group that voted most heavily for Prop 8

    Who cares? What has that got to do with anything? Black people are just as good at discriminating as white people are. Being black doesn’t give them a "get out of jail free" card.

  70. They weren’t discriminating against anyone.

  71. Of course Jaz, but Phantom – in case you haven’t noticed – is Prime Minister, President, and King of the non sequitur.

  72. They weren’t discriminating against anyone.

    Ok – take me through this very slowly as clearly I am missing some huuuuuuge point. How is it that two couple, one gay, one straight, are treated differently by the same organisation, but that isn’t discrimination.

  73. Why does Jaz get so many posts through and no one else can?

    Because I am the font of all true wisdom. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair.

  74. Look Jaz, the girl was going to wear trousers, for the love of God!

    Seriously, this is the argument that clown tried to make– seriously!

    Petr, if you saw and heard the ayatollah I had to fight with in my office this morning- LOL

  75. Look Jaz, the girl was going to wear trousers, for the love of God!
    There are some things that are simply beyond the pale. Girls in trousers? Whatever next? There will be men in skirts next. What do you mean there already are in Scotland?

    Phantom
    Apart from tossing out assertoric statements, as is your wont, you haven’t actually explained why this isn’t discrimination, nor what this "choice" is that this couple had.

  76. Why is everyone so worried about a bunch of lezzers in some hick armpit of USA….if the yanks saw this theyd probably rightly ask why a bunch of micks were commenting on their affairs when were knee deep in shores of hell on our own island.

  77. "Cross dressing is a civil right?"

    Good one Phantom 😉

  78. The Phantom –

    They weren’t discriminating against anyone.

    Hmmmm.. They set their policy in contravention of the law of the land – in doing so they limited the freedoms of their pupils to act in ways they happened to dislike. When they were challenged on this, they decided to bully a girl (to whom they have a duty of care) who was behaving perfectly legally, but in a manner in which the school board did not like.

    I put up a link to a free online version of Hayek’s The Road To Serfdom, pretty much the anti-Socialist bible 😉

    To quote

    The Rule of Law was consciously evolved only during the liberal age and is one of its greatest achievements. It is the legal embodiment of freedom. As Immanuel Kant put it, ‘Man is free if he needs obey no person but solely the laws.’

    You used to be a member of the Republican party, right?

    This is a touchstone issue – either you believe in individual liberty – which would include protecting in it when others engage in legal activities we’re not that fond of – or you believe that the state has a right to interfere with citizen’s behaviours, up to and including breaking the laws of society. If it’s the latter – and you support the state and it’s agencies in only selectively enforcing laws – that puts you in the same camp as the Socalists and Totalitarians..

  79. It is a shame it was cancelled but it didn’t have to be. It is a shame that the kids miss out on their big day and a shame that some will seek to blame this girl, for the heinous crime of wanting to go to a prom with her girlfriend.

    As for "men’s attire". There isn’t really any such thing, even socially. Women can and do wear almost anything. Hey we will even be wearing trousers next! Has to be said that most women would look a lot better in a tux than most men to in a strapless evening gown!

  80. A&Z,

    "if the yanks saw this theyd probably rightly ask why a bunch of micks were commenting on their affairs when were knee deep in shores of hell on our own island."

    Absolutely true. This is sort of thing we have to contend with in Northern Ireland. I wonder where this hatred comes from.

    Pair guilty of homophobic murder

    Two men have been found guilty of murdering a County Tyrone supermarket manager almost two years ago.

    Shaun Fitzpatrick, 32, was found dead in an alleyway off the Donaghmore Road in Dungannon early on 23 March 2008.

    Andrius Dunauskas, 23, of Lisnahull Road, and Raminas Balseris, 26, of Altmore Drive, were found guilty at Dungannon Crown Court.

    The pair, originally from Lithuania, killed him because he was gay. He was attacked on his way home from a bar.

    Mr Fitzpatrick was so badly beaten that police initially thought he may have been shot.

  81. Rabbi,

    I knew Shaun very well. It was a brutal brutal attack, and brought many ‘bubbling under the surface’ issues to the surface.

    In particular, it brought a strain of anti-immigrant sentiment, that thankfully subsided. Ironically knowng the kind of Shaun- anti- anything would be the last thing he’d have approved of.

  82. Pinky,

    My apologies if I reopened old wounds. I simply wished to illustrate where hatred of gays can lead.

    Only this morning we had some DUP homophobe from Newry spewing his bile on the Nolan show. There’s so much of this in Northern Ireland that it’s no wonder we get murders like poor Shaun’s.

    You’d think we’d had more than our share of hatred of the "other" wouldn’t you?

  83. Rabbi,

    No need for sorry. Totally appropriate that you would cite this case, as it was all about the intolerance.

    No need at all, but thanks.

    Yes you would think we had all seen and heard enough. But some hatreds can never be sated, I suppose.

  84. Heh Phantom – any thoughts on why this isn’t discrimination?

  85. I would be very supprised if anyone involved in killing someone because he is gay, is not a closet gay themselves. I suppose I can sort of see some sort of exception if someone was say abused when young by a gay pervert and was thus on a revenge spree or someone who heard voices telling them too. Otherwise hatred of gay people to that extent, why? What possible threat does someone pose just by nature of being gay. It is not like they are going to force us all to adopt their sexuality. I don;t suppose he has killed anyone yet but that Phelps guy. I would be VERY supprised if he was wasn’t at least bi.

  86. I agree, Aileen. Same with those guys who go on a killing spree of women and girls. In most cases they are just trying to kill the feminine inside them that they were brought up to despise.
    How many times do you hear: "After shooting the women he turned the gun on himself".

  87. Just another case of the gay lobby winning again – by default. The school has every right to its decision but at the same time knew they would be unable to afford the lawsuit. The only alternative was to ban the prom.

    Such a shame that the freedom to decide who is and isn’t allowed to attend has been removed. And another thing, intolerance works both ways. The minority groups rule and the rest of us are deemed to be intolerant if we dare question them. What a world.

  88. The only alternative was to ban the prom.

    Or *GASP* they could have just allowed two girls *GASP* to go together as partners.

    What a world indeed.

  89. Marloy
    "The minority groups rule"
    Surely, if that were the case only same sex couples would have been allowed to attend

    "… and the rest of us are deemed to be intolerant if we dare question them." Yes if your questioning amounts to intolerance

    " What a world." I generally take the view that groups should be able to decide their own rules on admission but I don’t think that a state organisation should have the right to decide what a couple should consist of.

  90. "I don’t think that a state organisation should have the right to decide what a couple should consist of."

    And certainly not when that state is *cough, spit* Mississippi.

  91. So this prom ‘HAD’ to be cancelled???!!!

    Surely the teachers could’ve organised a bucket of pigs blood if they really didn’t like them, instead of cancelling the damn thing !

  92. Jaz

    It’s just have an orderly, rational, human society. Nothing more.

  93. Aileen,

    What I meant was that one ‘gay’ couple have won because they have left the school no other choice but to cancel the prom – for the reason I pointed out.

    And yes I am intolerant of some things and people flaunting their sexuality is one of them. In any event the school does undoubtedly have rules but the ‘rights’ lobby refuse to acknowledge this but turn everything into a civil/human rights issue.

  94. The school has every right to its decision
    Really? It has the right to arbitrary and discriminatory practices. It has the right to treat a person differently because of their sexuality? From where does it gain that right? What is the source of moral authority for that right?

    the rest of us are deemed to be intolerant
    You want people to tolerate your intolerance? In other words you are demanding of other people (tolerance) the one thing that you are not prepared to give (tolerance). You don’t think, perchance, that demanding other people tolerate your intolerance, while at the same time demanding the right not to tolerate their tolerance is somewhat – no, not somewhat – utterly hypocritical? Your position is logically inconsistent. Or put it another way – you assert the right to be intolerant. Well fine. Then I am going to be intolerant of your claim to intolerance.

    It’s just have an orderly, rational, human society. Nothing more.
    There you go again with your assertoric statements. You appear to be saying – but I can’t really tell – that it is okay to discriminate against this gay couple if the greater good is an orderly, rational, human society. That sounds a lot like utilitarianism to me. I am sure the Hutus felt the same way. After all getting rid of those Tutsis ensured an orderly, rational human society.

    But even your statement does not explain why the action by the school board in banning same sex couples was not discriminatory, as you asserted. Even if the aim of the ban was, in your words, to "have an orderly, rational, human society" that doesn’t refute the claim that it was discriminatory. I have yet to see an argument as to how the action of the board did not treat two couples differently based entirely on sexuality of the couples was anything but discriminatory.

  95. two 18 year old lesbians wanting to step out together. and most here DON’T want to watch. too weird.

  96. two 18 year old lesbians wanting to step out together. and most here DON’T want to watch. too weird.

    Firstly, as has been evidenced before, there seems to be a penchant for lesbian pornography among certain ATW members, so I am not sure that is strictly correct.

    And more importantly – and less flippantly – no one is asking you to watch. It is simply asking that people not be discriminated against on the basis of their sexuality. Is that really so much to ask? Would you accept discrimination on any other basis – such as race, religion, gender or physical disability?

  97. Jaz,

    The school has a right to have rules and in those rules there must be things they will not tolerate even though others thing they should. Quite acceptable I’d say. Otherwise there would be no order in any organisation.

    Secondly, I’m not asking anyone to tolerate my intolerance just the right to be intolerant of certain things. I’m sure you, Jaz, are not tolerant of everything in life. You’ve already cited my intolerance as just one!!

    Life is too full of people bleating on about their rights but how many do you suppose face up to their responsibilities – in most instances a much more difficult test of character.

  98. Aileen,

    Marloy

    "What I meant was that one ‘gay’ couple have won because they have left the school no other choice but to cancel the prom – for the reason I pointed out. "

    How have they won? They didn’t get to go to the prom?

    The school did have a choice. It could have chosed to let them go to the prom.

    "And yes I am intolerant of some things and people flaunting their sexuality is one of them. "
    How about the other kids flaunting their sexuality by going to the prom with a member of the opposite sex?

    "In any event the school does undoubtedly have rules but the ‘rights’ lobby refuse to acknowledge this but turn everything into a civil/human rights issue."

    Who is not acknowedging that they have rules. A rule that I think sucks! If something is a civil/human rights issue it is. This got turned into one by the school.

  99. oops

    I got my cutting and pasteing mixed up in that last post the "Marloy" should have come before the "Aileen" which was part of the quote from "Marloy".

    Marloy

    "Jaz,

    The school has a right to have rules and in those rules there must be things they will not tolerate even though others thing they should. Quite acceptable I’d say. Otherwise there would be no order in any organisation."

    ..they have a right to have rules but I beleive that a state school has no right to make this kind of rule, any more than it should be allowed to ban black kids from the prom.

    "Secondly, I’m not asking anyone to tolerate my intolerance just the right to be intolerant of certain things. I’m sure you, Jaz, are not tolerant of everything in life. You’ve already cited my intolerance as just one!!"

    Personally I have no problem with people having their views about gays and their lifestyle and get annoyed myself at some emement of the "millitant gay" wing who seem to demand that everyone thinks its fine. I think that the line is crossed when someone tries to deny them rights.

    "Life is too full of people bleating on about their rights"

    I disagree entirely. There is not enough standing up for rights. People are too ready to hand them over.
    "but how many do you suppose face up to their responsibilities – in most instances a much more difficult test of character." One of the most inportant responsibilities (and I am just being careful here as I like to be exact – I can’t actually think of a more important one) is to defend rights.

  100. Today’s newspaper shows that the other students are very unhappy with this selfish individual for causing this.

    Yes, guys some of us know the US better than others.

  101. Phantom

    "Today’s newspaper shows that the other students are very unhappy with this selfish individual for causing this."

    I would be very suprised if it was true that ALL the other students felt that way.
    What a terrible inditement of those students who do and how selfish they must be to begrudge someone else what they are p’d off about missing out on.

    "Yes, guys some of us know the US better than others."?????

    Not sure what you mean here. I didn’t read the thread in detail but I don’t remember anyone presuming to know how disappointing some of other students reactions would be.

  102. The school has a right to have rules and in those rules there must be things they will not tolerate even though others thing they should.
    Indeed, but those rules must be universally applied to all students, and must not seek to discriminate in an arbitrary fashion against one sector of the school community, which is clearly what is going on here.

    just the right to be intolerant of certain things
    You have the right to hold whatever views you like; what you do not have the right to do is to impose those views on other people if in doing so you deny them their rights without good reason. So if you personally think that left-handed people are the spawn of the devil it is your right to hold such a view. However it is not your (moral) right to treat left-handed people differently because of their difference.

    Life is too full of people bleating on about their rights
    I could not disagree more.

    Phantom
    Today’s newspaper shows that the other students are very unhappy with this selfish individual for causing this.
    Actually websites of today’s newspapers quote one student. They also quote the Facebook group with 40,000 members, and they also quote the other students who support Constance McMillen.
    I dare say that if you read the papers around the time of the Clinton 12 there were probably lots of people who opposed them.
    Just because other students are unhappy doesn’t make the person’s actions wrong – unless you are some kind of utilitarian.

    Yes, guys some of us know the US better than others.
    So what? So you know more about discrimination in teh US than we do. You have yet to explain, by the way, how this is not a discriminatory action.

  103. All of everyone doesn’t feel anything, aileen. Never understood what that kind of statement was supposed to mean. ( ie " All Jews don’t support Israel don’t ya know " )

    I made a statement along the lines that I just might know the mores of a place like Mississippi, even from New Yawk, more than some opining individual in Europa.

    The kids are all right. This individual was selfish, and wrong, and hopefully will one way realize this.

  104. Its not a discriminatory action since she was free to attend the prom with a male escort, as were all the other female students.

    One standard, for all.

    Simple, really.

  105. Two couples
    1 gay couple
    1 straight couple

    The straight couple is allowed to attend as a couple.
    The gay couple are not. Furthermore the gay couple are told that if they do attend, and they are seen together as a couple they may be asked to leave. No straight couple is told this.

    Or try it this way "Its not a discriminatory action since she was not free to attend the prom with a male escort her partner, as were unlike all the other female students.

  106. Nope – and don’t want to argue this

    You guys are not viewing this correctly.

    Mississippi is more evolved than Europe on this one

    And we disagree.

  107. Phantom

    "All of everyone doesn’t feel anything, aileen. Never understood what that kind of statement was supposed to mean. ( ie " All Jews don’t support Israel don’t ya know " ) "

    It was your comment that said "Today’s newspaper shows that the other students are very unhappy with this selfish individual for causing this."

    If 100% of the other students are not in agreement then this is not a true statement.

    "I made a statement along the lines that I just might know the mores of a place like Mississippi, even from New Yawk, more than some opining individual in Europa."

    What has this got to do with the inherent rights or wrongs of the issue?

    "Its not a discriminatory action since she was free to attend the prom with a male escort, as were all the other female students.

    One standard, for all.

    Simple, really."

    Not simple. The boys were allowed to attend with their girlfriends. Why could she not do the same? Because she is a girl. Why should she be prevented from doing something that the boys could do?

  108. Nope – and don’t want to argue this
    Want, or can’t>

    You guys are not viewing this correctly. Mississippi is more evolved than Europe on this one
    More evolved? Hmmm – did they change the meaning of evolved? I didn’t get the memo. Reactionary, yes. Evolved? I don’t think so.

    And we disagree.
    Evidently. The difference is that you have yet to posit a credible argument to justify your position except for "community standards", "it is Mississippi" and "I am from New York and you are not, so I know more about this than you do". None of which, you will forgive me for saying, amount to much of an argument.

  109. I daresay that a big majority of the other students are unhappy with her. Trust me on this one.

    If some guy wanted to bring his " boyfriend " tripped up in a miniskirt to the prom, all the liberal reactionaries would support that too.

    Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news.

  110. I daresay that a big majority of the other students are unhappy with her. Trust me on this one.

    So what? A lot of Hutus like massacring Tutsis. A lot of West Ham fans like beating up Millwall fans. A lot of people like to steal things. Muslim terrorists like blowing up Americans.

    Doesn’t make it right.

  111. "I daresay that a big majority of the other students are unhappy with her. Trust me on this one."

    You could well be right. The fledgling adult does not have the monopoly on selfishness but hormones can play havoc with your judgement.

  112. Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news.

    So in 1776 I take it then that you would have opposed the revolution. "I don’t care if there is taxation without representation. Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news."

  113. And you still have yet to explain why two different couples being treated differently on the basis of their sexuality is not discrimination. No straight couple was told that they might be asked to leave if they were seen together as a couple.

  114. Jaz

    Your premises are all wrong.

    We start from the the point of the individual. Every male student and every female student was treated the same. You have no argument.

  115. I am terrible at remembering names and risk getting kicked out of the Liberal Reactionaries Club (not to mention what ever hard left wing socialist network Ernest has be down as part of but on a smaller scale, wasn’t that black woman who wouldn’t be told that she couldn’t sit where the white people could, being "selfish" and breaking societies rules? Pity the poor people whose bus journey she lengthened because she didn’t acept her place?

  116. "Every male student and every female student was treated the same. You have no argument."
    Why should a female student accept different treatment than a male?

  117. Because life’s like that.

    Men don’t have babies, and girls don’t take girls to the prom.

    There’s no unfairness in any of this

  118. We start from the the point of the individual. Every male student and every female student was treated the same.
    Ok. Let’s take the starting point of the individual. Your assertion is wrong because not every male and female student was treated the same. Different students were treated differently based on their sexuality.

    A straight girl is allowed to attend with her partner.
    A lesbian girl is not.
    A straight girl is allowed to be with her partner.
    A lesbian girl is told that if she attends with her partner they may both be asked to leave. No straight girl is told this.

    Let’s cast back a good few years. Same state, different times.

    A mythical segregated school posts a mythical rule that says no student may attend the prom with a coloured partner. By your argument that is justifiable. After all all students are being treated the same (the coloured students do not attend this college as it is segregated). Would you defend that? Would your argument be:

    "Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news."

    And if not, why not?

  119. "Because life’s like that."

    Life has lots of things in it that it behoves us not to just accept and acquiese.

    but gay rights notwithstanding, I nearly burned my pork crackling!!!!

  120. Because life’s like that.

    You are joking, surely? Is that your argument? Because life’s like that. Is that your defence. Because life’s like that.

    You would most assuredly been on our side in 1776.
    "Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news."
    "But we don’t agree with taxation without representation".
    "Well get over it life’s like that".

    life’s like that. What a great defence. What an argument.

    And you said I had no argument.

    life’s like that. Wow.

  121. Life should be like that, Jaz – there’s no injustice here.

    Gotta go.

  122. "Today’s newspaper shows that the other students are very unhappy with this selfish individual for causing this."

    What, the selfish Head of the school board who cancelled the prom for no justifiable reason ?

  123. You know Phantom, that has to be the biggest climb down since Hillary came down Everest.
    life’s like that

    And your propensity to firing off assertoric statements, as if they constituted, some sort of an argument, does not change your position one bit.

    The fact is – as you have clearly conceded – that the position of the school is untenable and that it is manifest discrimination. Any attempt to defend your position has crumbled into life’s like that, as if maintenance of the status quo was some sort of defence.

    Your entire nation was built on the refutation of the status quo. The civil rights movement was built on the refutation of the status quo. JFK – whose praises you were singing on here just the other day – didn’t say, when faced with the perceived Soviet superiority in missile technology life’s like that.

    life’s like that.

  124. Hear hear, Colm.

    Because life’s like that.

    Men don’t have babies, and girls don’t take girls to the prom.

    Poor, very poor, Phantom.

    And in another era, Phantom’s moral and intellectual equivalent might have said:

    "Blacks don’t vote, that’s just the way it is"

  125. The civil rights movement was built on the refutation of the status quo

    People like Phantom and Troll would have despised the civil rights movement, whatever their retrospective position may be.

    Ditto with South African aprtheid… these people say now that it’s great the blacks have more rights, but they didn’t join the fight at the time. They stayed silent, bought South African goods, and went to South African rugby matches in Landsdowne Road.

    The same people support Israel’s strangulation of the Palestinians today….

  126. Phantom

    "Because life’s like that.

    Men don’t have babies, and girls don’t take girls to the prom.

    There’s no unfairness in any of this"

    Come on you cannot be serious. Actually it is unfair that women are the ones to have the children but that is not down to a school ruling. At one time women were not allowed to vote. Life was like that then

    Men don’t have babies
    Women don’t vote
    Just old life doing it’s thing

  127. Sometimes I think Phantom just enjoys being devils advocate. He knows there is no logical rational reasoning behind his arguments in defence of this ban so just shrugs "that’s life" and then pops off allowing the thread to bubble away

  128. Don’t think so Colm. He has a sharp dislike of gay people and wishes to limit their rights in a number of areas.

  129. Petr

    You’re a liar.

    And I’m not just stirring the pot. Society has rules. And these rules are far from being unfair in any way. You guys are trying to impose your beliefs on the kids of a state where you’ve never been – not me.

  130. Phantom

    What on earth does it matter if we have been there or not? If the rules treat girls differently from boys for no good reason then it is UNFAIR. I have never been to areas in Africa that practice female circumcision. I have no wish to impose my beleifs on them. They can believe whatever the hell they like but I would impose on them a prohibition on this practice. Different scale but the point holds about it not mattering whether ot not i have been there.

  131. You start from a false premise – that there is no good reason.

  132. Society has rules. And these rules are far from being unfair in any way. You guys are trying to impose your beliefs on the kids of a state where you’ve never been – not me.
    Which is exactly the defence of the segregationists.

    the kids of a state where you’ve never been
    I think you will find that this about a ‘kid’ who does live in the state.

    Because life’s like that

    Colm
    Phantom has a track record of being pretty strongly anti-gay people. In fact looking back there aren’t many gay threads on which he hasn’t felt the need to comment. So this isn’t some intellectual exercise on his part, where he wittily plays Devil’s Advocate.

    No one could have come up with Because life’s like that orSociety has rules as a defence who wasn’t well and truly utterly crushed and has nothing else on which to fall back. The maintenance of the status quo. Just a total resignation.

    Society has rules
    Because life’s like that

  133. Phantom –

    "Society has rules, guys. Sorry to break the news."

    Yep, they are called laws – and it was the school that broke them in this case.

  134. Phantom

    Society had rules in the 1950s. Southern states had segregation, approved of by the majority of their white population. Was that segregation acceptable ?

    Even today in a school containing both races would a rule that forbade a white pupil to bring a black date to a prom be considered Ok on the grounds that both races were being treated equally and no-one was being forbidden from attending ?

  135. You don’t understand the ways and norms of human beings very well, Jaz.

    Society has a right to defend itself.

    And there is no legitimate issue here.

    Zero.

    Colm, that’s again seeking to compare what is intrinsic ( race ) to what is behavioral

    Racial segregation was not and is not acceptable because it was unequal treatment based on something that individuals had no control over, which was not behavior based – there was nothing they could do or no different way they could act which would remedy it- and which was meant to keep blacks in an inferior status.

    Entirely different issue.

  136. "State Sen. Roy Ashburn (R-Calif.), the fierce opponent of gay rights who was arrested last week for drunk driving after leaving a gay nightclub, confirmed in a radio interview Monday that he is gay.

    "I’m gay," Ashburn told local radio host Inga Barks before returning to the Senate for the first time since his arrest. "Those are the words that have been so difficult for me for so long."

    Ashburn, a 55-year-old divorced father of four, claimed his 15-year crusade against proposed gay-rights laws in the California statehouse stemmed from his desire to vote the way his constituents wanted."

    I just thought the above story relevant considering our resident ATW homophobe who obsessively rallies against homosexuals, also inadvertently confesses his obsession/desire/fantasy for men in mini skirts dancing together LOL
    It is no coincidence that the most vivid ‘homosexual scenarios’ show up in this individuals posts.

  137. Phantom

    "You start from a false premise – that there is no good reason."

    So let us have the good reason then. The reason that makes it ok to stop this girl taking her girlfriend to the prom.

  138. Phantom

    Why are your arguments on here not valid to use to defend racial segregation? I am assuming that you would not consider them so, so why are they valid here.

    Update – his answer crossed in the ether.

  139. Phantom – I won’t address the issue of whether your knowledge of Mississippi is greater than ATW’s European participants, but it certainly isn’t greater than mine. So you’ll have to toss that one out the window and get back to the point.

    I don’t agree with the comment made by another above that you would have been on the side of the segregationists in the civil rights era. That is unfounded and untrue. But you are mimicing the segregationist argument in this situation.

    This young woman is certainly not a "freak". She is quite courageous. High School isn’t an easy time for anyone, and it would have been easier for her to avoid the ostracisim and scorn of some of her classmates by simply denying who she is. She did not, and chose the more difficult path of standing up for her rights in the face of peer pressure and community pressure in a very very very small town. I said it before, but it is worth saying again – she taught her classmates a lesson in courage that they may not all understand now, but mos twill acknowledge one day.

  140. Phantom

    "Colm, that’s again seeking to compare what is intrinsic ( race ) to what is behavioral

    Racial segregation was not and is not acceptable because it was unequal treatment based on something that individuals had no control over, which was not behavior based – there was nothing they could do or no different way they could act which would remedy it- and which was meant to keep blacks in an inferior status.

    Entirely different issue."

    Ouch!!! So if blacks could have decided to become white, would it have been all right to treat them like that?
    Is it all right to be black because they can’t help it?

    I don’t think that homosexuals can help being that way either. This girl couldn’t help being female either. If she was male she could have brought her girlfriend.

    It was her choice to want to go to the prom. Like it was the choice of the black woman to ride a bus.

  141. Mahons

    Very well said young man!!!

  142. Aileen – Thanks. We yutes (see My Cousin Vinny) must stick together.

  143. Mahons: "Phantom – I won’t address the issue of whether your knowledge of Mississippi is greater than ATW’s European participants, but it certainly isn’t greater than mine. So you’ll have to toss that one out the window and get back to the point. "

    Ah some logic thrown into the debate.

    "You’ve been a lovely, lovely witness."

  144. Phantom
    You don’t understand the ways and norms of human beings very well, Jaz.
    Society has a right to defend itself.
    And there is no legitimate issue here.
    Zero.

    You know that just making statements isn’t the same as making an argument. But since your argument is little more than Society has rules and Because life’s like that I am not altogether surprised that you are now just reverting to tossing out random statements and not attempting to justify them.

    which was not behavior based
    You have skirted around this before – and it has been lurking in the background ever since. Please tell me, please, that we are not about to have the "gay people are gay through choice" argument. I realise that after Because life’s like that as a defence, you are slightly caught out in the open, but please tell me we are not about to plumb the very depths of ignorance on this subject? Please. I rather fear we are – and I rather fear we have – but having tried once to kill this, we will try again.

    Phantom – do you believe that gay people are gay through choice?

    Here is a clue for you,
    "Racial segregation Gay discrimination was not and is not acceptable because it was unequal treatment based on something that individuals had no control over, which was not behavior based – there was nothing they could do or no different way they could act which would remedy it- and which was meant to keep blacks gays in an inferior status."

  145. Hi Aileen

    Hope you are well

    Courageous move by the girl and the ACLU or -since their motivations are clear- entirely political and so not at all courageous but cynical. Fact is the ACLU insisted the school’s obligations were to treat all the students fairly in the prom. In the end it did. It treated them all fairly and equally by cancelling the prom. It also says that people were free to go ahead and organise a private prom. No doubt they will.

    So yes it was her choice to want to go to the prom. Like it was the choice of the black woman to ride a bus. And thus it was the schools choice to cancel their prom. An equally courageous or cynical move by the school in the face of fierce insistence that they have to agree with something they don’t want to agree with – and where one traditional and fun evening out wound up highly politicised. But everyone exercised their choice.

    There were better ways to win people round to a difficult way of thinking and acceptance than using threats, the law and the ACLU.

  146. My argument stands.

    Back in them there good old days it was A-OK to agree that blacks should not have the vote. Now that’s so widely considered to be unacceptable that even those who would happily have acquiesced tell us they’re glad blacks have more rights.

    You can bet your bottom dollar that those who speak against gay rights on these threads were red with rage when homosexuality was decriminalised.

    But they’re unlikely to admit that today.

    The point, in short, is that these guys are very much on the wrong side of history. It’s only going one way, so expect more red faces full of indignation and impotency in the years ahead…

  147. "Racial segregation was not and is not acceptable because it was unequal treatment based on something that individuals had no control over, which was not behavior based – there was nothing they could do or no different way they could act which would remedy it- and which was meant to keep blacks in an inferior status."

    Phantom

    Exactly the same argument could be made about discrimination on account of religion or national identity – i.e. Catholics/nationalists in pre 1960s Northern Ireland .

  148. Also Aileen since this is ultimately a religious issue given this is Bible Belt country – where do you stand on banning abortion. I’ve never asked you.

  149. It treated them all fairly and equally by cancelling the prom.
    It treated them equally certainly. I am not sure that that is treating them fairly.

    face of fierce insistence that they have to agree with something they don’t want to agree with
    That is the nature of change and struggle. That is why any protest movement does what it does – to force a change in the status quo. To overturn the people who say Society has rules and Because life’s like that. These people are the obstacles to change; the reactionary forces who resist.

    There were better ways to win people round to a difficult way of thinking and acceptance than using threats, the law and the ACLU.
    Really? If you are an 18yo lesbian in a bible-belt town. Your school has denied you your sexuality. They have attempted to turn the entire school against you by closing down the highlight of the year because you dared to stand up and say that the way you were being treated was not acceptable.

    So what should this brave young woman have done?

  150. Unlike everyone else I’m going to do some research before commenting on this story, starting with googling "teenage lesbians".

    Hang on this could take some time.

  151. Alison

    "Hi Aileen

    Hope you are well"

    I’m fine Alison – and I hope that you are. Did I dream your very good news :o)

    "Courageous move by the girl and the ACLU or -since their motivations are clear- entirely political and so not at all courageous but cynical."

    I still think it was courageous of the girl and if political is another word for getting the right thing done then great.

    "Fact is the ACLU insisted the school’s obligations were to treat all the students fairly in the prom. In the end it did. It treated them all fairly and equally by cancelling the prom."

    It was not fair to make this girl wanting to do what the others were allowed to do the reason. "

    "So yes it was her choice to want to go to the prom. Like it was the choice of the black woman to ride a bus. And thus it was the schools choice to cancel their prom."

    The choice bit was in response to Phantom bringing choice into the debate. It isn’t really relevant.

    "An equally courageous or cynical move by the school in the face of fierce insistence that they have to agree with something they don’t want to agree with – and where one traditional and fun evening out wind up highly politicised."

    For me, for the word courageous to have any real meaning it has to be associated with virtue. Doing something wrong that may be difficult doesn’t cut it. In a lot oc cases I would be defending an organisations right to have their quirks and traditions but I do not accept that a state school has the same rights to discriminate. I can imagine that there might be a degree of s’stirring from some opposed to the school but that doesn’t make the stand wrong.

    "There were better ways to win people round to a difficult way of thinking and acceptance than using threats, the law and the ACLU."

    Yes that is true but there are also times when on principle, I don’t really care what they think as long as they do the right thing or refrain from doing the wrong one.

  152. Ross, LOL.

    That was so funny.

    The one constant, for me in this homosexuality debate is that I just do not understand why people get so riled up about something as positive as love, affection and a wee bit of nookie!

    What harm were these two girls going to do at the Prom? What harm does a homosexual couple do to anyone? Why would anyone hate enough to discriminate in such a way. It is horrific.

    None of the arguments in opposition make ANY sense. Based on fallacy and prejudice- as shown quite clearly in this thread.

  153. LOL @ Ross

    It would never do to give an uninformed comment now would it ;o)

  154. Alison – No threats were made. The law is necessary to prevent those who would seek to discriminate in violation of the law from getting away with it, whoever the target of the discrimiantion may be – women, blacks, the disabled or gay people.

  155. Alison

    "Also Aileen since this is ultimately a religious issue given this is Bible Belt country – where do you stand on banning abortion. I’ve never asked you."

    This risks us going severly OT.

    We are on different sides of this arguement. I believe that an individual life starts at conception (or when the cells start to split) and I accept the right to abort in cases of significant additional danger to the mother, either life threatening or disabling, really on par with a self defence justification for taking life generally.

    I don’t necessarily see it as a "religious issue". I held the same veiw when I was much less of a Theist than I am now.

  156. It is not a religious issue. The fact that the school district is in a region of the country known as the Bible Belt does not exempt them from following the law.

    Incidently the school district’s own stated policy is to ban discrimination based on religion.

  157. Pinky

    "None of the arguments in opposition make ANY sense. Based on fallacy and prejudice- as shown quite clearly in this thread."

    I personnally beleive that a lot of the problem is actually intolerance but more an intolerance of the fact that some people don’t like homosexuality and why should they? If people are not allowed to have their own likes and dislikes then they are more likely to have to try and express their opposition in spurious arguements. Some people do a hell of a lot of extrapolating from someone saying that they don’t like homosexuality or that they find it disgusting.

  158. Aileen,

    Of course people are allowed their opinions, like and dislikes- but they are not allowed to make up their own facts!

    We can not make laws based on likes and dislikes. Equality means equality, not equality for the people or behaviour, I myself approve of.

    You’d think that would be obvious, right?

    The logical progression of this type of thinking is to rewrite laws and constitutions. It could read something like this:

    "We are all equal except those who do not look like, act like , or smell like those who write the laws and hold power."

  159. Pinky

    Yes but not everyone does allow others their likes and dislikes. For instance I commented on a thread quite a while back in defence of someone saying that they found the thought of homosexual activity disgusting and that I quite agreed. Quite a few got their undies in an uproar about it. I cannot think of any of my gay friends and associates, when in the midst of doing what they are doing would spare a thought for my disgust ;o)

    Similarly I don’t much care if people approve or not of what I do. It only becomes my business if they try and stop me or stop me doing something that they can do because of their disapproval of me.

  160. Fair enough Aileen and I still think it was courageous and just of the school to cancel it in the face of overt political activism on the back of what they laid out as the basis for their prom. They exercised their right and their choice just as she did. She forced their hand they called her bluff in a funny kind of way. The girl must know that she is having a go at their established virtues with her own. So its one set of virtues against another in the end. At a school prom. Sad really. But I don’t think that in the end this intrusion will serve anything more than to entrench views further. Just as Equality legislation is an absurdity and always proves itself divisive.

    Where do you stand on abortion by the way?

    And yes all going well now so far thanks. 8 weeks. First scan April 16.

  161. Yes – the school, and the majority of students, are the only injured parties here.

    Amazing what gets some of yiz riled up here.

  162. So its one set of virtues against another in the end.
    How is discrimination a virtue?

    Just as Equality legislation is an absurdity and always proves itself divisive.
    Equality legislation is an absurdity? Do you oppose it? Do you not think that there should be legal protections from discrimination?

  163. Alison

    For me the difference was that she was right. They were wrong. I have mixed views about Equality legislation. I am like a tiger when it comes to the state but think that in a lot of cases, where there isn’t a monopoly people and organisations have a right be be rubbish.

    I answere the Abortion question at 4:06

    Good to hear that your pot is simmering nicely :o)

  164. Aileen,

    I get what you are saying- but I tend NOT to think of other people’s sexual activity and enjoy my own! 🙂

    I suppose when I was younger I used to look at parents, teachers, fat people etc and wonder who or how in under god……….

    But that was never about their right to do it- just how they might look!!!!

    ( Thank goodness I have matured beyond that 🙂 )

  165. ….overt political activism or ‘enthusiasm for enforcing the law’

  166. There is no relevant law here.

  167. Pinky Friday, March 12, 2010 at 04:35PM

    Indeed. Those who obsess about the sexual goings-on of others are usually not getting a whole lot themselves, I find.

  168. ‘There is no relevant law here.’

    Mahons?

  169. Anyone heard from Ross. I am getting worried about him !!!

  170. I think they were right and she was wrong but trust the private thing works out for everyone. Pity the prom got so stupidly over-sexualised by this girl. As an aside I think it was wrong for the State to interfere with catholic adoption agencies and I detest every aspect of Harmens Equality legislation.

    I respect your view on abortion. I see it links to this argument over choice, virtues and opinions. As you know I used to stand vehemently ‘pro choice’ but now I don’t at all. I changed my mind about 6 months ago.

    The pot is simmering nicely! and no morning sickness at all which is worrying me actually. Ill be glad to see the scan.

  171. Of course, if it isn’t hetrosexual and missionary, it isn’t real sex! ;o)

  172. Alison

    I didn’t know.

    How wonderful!

  173. Thanks Phantom! I’m thrilled, scared, worried and thrilled again all at the same time.

  174. Alison

    I agree with you about RC adoption agencies but that is because there isn’t a monopoly and it isn’t a state body. As for Harmen. I think that anyone who supported woman only shortlists has a bloddy cheek to talk about equality at all. That also stands for anyone who supports the 50 50 thing in the PSNI.

    I hope you throw up tomorrow ;o)

  175. "Anyone heard from Ross. I am getting worried about him !!!"

    Don’t worry, I’ve done my research and discovered that teenage lesbians don’t wear male or female clothes and are generally naked.

    On the actual story, I don’t think the school were doing the right thing by banning the lesbian couple but don’t think a resort to lawsuits and creative interpretations of the statute books is an appropriate way of changing things.

  176. "Of course, if it isn’t hetrosexual and missionary, it isn’t real sex! ;o)"

    "Anyone heard from Ross. I am getting worried about him !!!"

    "I hope you throw up tomorrow ;o)’

    Aileen, LOL you are out of control.

    Alison, many best wishes and good health. I wouldn’t worry too much (although I understand the futility of saying that) about the lack of morning sickness. In my pregnancies, I wasn’t sick for an instance- nor did I have a labour pain much to speak of…

  177. Don’t worry, I’ve done my research and discovered that teenage lesbians don’t wear male or female clothes and are generally naked.

    Lol. They also, I understand, tend to be very large chested.

  178. My, what a thread! Great arguing from Jaz and Aileen.

    IMO the only good argument in favour of the school is Alison’s: if the whole point of the bash is following a tradition – a once-in-a-lifetime ritual like baptism, confirmation or a wedding (tho not in my case), where people like to do it the old way and see themselves participate in this tradition for its own sake, and if the evening would therefore be spoiled if that tradition were somehow denied (i.e. several IFs) – then the lady in Q would be a spoilsport, and the school would be morally entitled to ensure the rest get the evening they want.

    This of course has nothing to do with sexuality; it’s like if you know a young bride is looking forward to her white wedding, boring speeches, tossing the bouquet etc, then it would be a bit mean to turn up in denims and drunk and make a pass at her mother while dad is walking her up the aisle.

    BTW, a big hug and good luck to Alison. Pregnancy certainly hasn’t dulled her sharpness.

  179. My goodness Noel. Thanks for the kind wishes! My sharpness is dulled by 9pm every night without fail. Its weird.

    Thanks Pinky. My mum said the same. I should maybe quit worrying but I have my reasons I suppose.

    I always thought proms were highly traditional things. I also suspected that in the South they were super uptight about the way they are conducted too, super family focused and well behaved. I think there is room for that still in an event that lasts only an evening. Just as a gay pride event lasts a day and is exclusively given over to celebrating gay lifestyles after all. I suspect the school will now be sued into submission which maybe what some want but is a very sad outcome. If I was this very happy publicity hungry young woman (judging by the pics), I’d have respected the schools wishes, gone along with the ticketing requirements and then dropped my date on arrival at the prom. Only a tradition after all. (Then move out of the state to a liberal one)

  180. LOL @ Ross

    Glad you’re back. I thought I might have had to send Mahons after you to check you were ok. I think that there are probably two types of lesbians, the real ones and those generated to please hetro-men. I suspect you have stumbled over a nest of the latter.

    Pinky

    I am generally worse when I am avoiding doing something that I should be doing. I took the day off work to get on top of a load of housework ready for visitors and I haven’t done a hands turn yet!!

  181. Those on the other side have no respect for the social conservatives, for lack of a better phrase, which is half the problem.

    The school, or anyone who understands and supports their position, are all " homophobes " or " bigots " akin to Bull Connor siccing rabid dogs on the kids.

    Its a dialogue of the deaf, and can only be thus when one side refuses to listen.

  182. I just noticed Alison’s news, congratulations.

  183. And I echo those sentiments of Noel and Pinky – many, many congratulations on your news. Nothing in life can begin to compare to the joy that children bring.

  184. Jeez Phantom, you never give up do you? (What happend to your pressing engagement?) I’d admire your tenacity if it weren’t based on little more than an argument anchored to Because life’s like that.
    Those on the other side have no respect for the social conservatives, for lack of a better phrase, which is half the problem.

    Of course they want them to change – they are fighting against the status quo. They will drag these people, kicking and screaming if they have to, to force them to change. That is how the civil rights movement worked, that is how your country was formed. That is how the velvet revolution happened. That is how all popular movements happen. By rejecting the views of "social conservatives" and saying no to them.

    Change happens when people reject those who say things like Society has rules and Because life’s like that. They don’t accept that life should be like that. They reject those rules.

    Is there something in this you find hard to grasp?

    By the way – you never answered my question. Phantom – do you believe that gay people are gay through choice?

  185. Probably not. Forgive me if I don’t follow into another blind alley.

    And you’ll not be dragging " these people " into anything.

    I didn’t say that the engagement would last forever

  186. Jaz,

    This is the point in the debate where the homophobe/racist / other starts preaching about the intolerance of others- toward his/her intolerance.

    I am intolerant of discrimination- and proud to say so.

    The laws of the land can not be constructed or founded on what I can or cannot tolerate and if we proudly promote the idea that our societies are based in principles of equality and respect for all- them that means ALL.

    Furthermore, the same people rightly condemning the inequality that exists in their ‘enemy’s state/law’ (usually Islamic), go on to promote/excuse away/insist upon inequality based on their own intolerance, within their own national boundaries.

    Nope, you couldn’t make it up.

  187. Why are the longest threads about homosexuality or burqas.

    What about the rights of a gay man to wear one :o)

  188. What is Alison’s news – so many comments but cannot see it?

  189. Someone’s having a baby…

  190. and it’s not Phantom…..

    Just want to add my congratulations to Alison, and my best wishes that all goes smoothly and later in the summer Alison will be reporting back to us on her beautiful bouncing healthy bundle of joy.

  191. Now you stop

  192. LOL Colm
    All part of life’s unfairness

    David
    Alison is expecting a mini blogger :oD

  193. Why are the longest threads about homosexuality or burqas.

    We despise most in others that which me most despise in ourselves.

  194. How profound

  195. So are we rejecting our inner desire to swaddle ourselves? :p

  196. How profound
    Heh – it beats Society has rules and Because life’s like that.

    And you’ll not be dragging " these people " into anything.
    I’m not dragging anyone – but brave people like this girl are – dragging these neanderthals into this century.

  197. Alison – Best of luck and expect all the emotions to continue to run up and down.

  198. My sincere congrats to Alison.

  199. Jaz

    You have comprehensively won the argument on this thread. I hereby award you the honour of being Pahntom’s High school Prom reunion date 🙂

  200. I expect some on here would have been supportive of anti-miscegenation laws ‘back in the day’, what with such activity not being ”normal’ or ‘the done thing’.

  201. Why thank you.

    I claim as my prize, the right to post the 200th addition to this thread. And I suspect the last. (except having said that it won’t be, will it?)

  202. no

  203. No Jaz, you ait got the last comment . It ain’t over until the fat lady wins. Who wants to be the fat lady ?

  204. This is the last comment

  205. So you want to be the fat lady Phantom ?

  206. Does she win or sing Colm?

  207. RS

    Yes I know in the original quote she sings, but I paraphrased it to make it relevent to the nature of debating.

  208. Colm – If Phantom wants to be the Fat Lady then perhaps he’s reconsidered his objection to cross dressing.

    Petr – The complaint filed in federal Court by the ACLU will assert a violation of the First Amendment at the very least, I am not sure exactly what other grounds they are proceeding under.

  209. Mahons

    Just when this ENORMOUS thread was flagging , you just want to stiffen it again don’t you ?