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Day Three and disinformation continues to cloud events in the town where half the Pakistani Army cannot reach a prominent compound within the hour despite being ten minutes away when a chopper crashes and “an intense firefight” breaks out.

I think today’s updates are: that bin Laden was reaching for a weapon, or maybe not; his daughter alleges he was taken alive before being shot; the CIA boss declares that photographic evidence will be released while Gates and Clinton say no. That they cannot manage a coherent narrative of events totally under the control of the federal government tells you of its ability to manage anything.

The last time SEALs conducted such a high profile raid a young American woman called Jessica Lynch was lying wounded, beaten and at death’s door in an Iraqi hospital. The convoy she’d been travelling in had got into a spot of bother, came under attack and she fought off Iraqi infantry until she ran out of ammunition. At least she managed to hit a few in the meantime. Lying stabbed and in severe mortal danger there was only one option: send in the SEALs for a dramatic rescue and a hero’s return.

Unfortunately, much of it was a pack of lies.

So excuse me while I don’t believe everything on command when a bunch of powerful liars tell me to believe even though they have the evidence to back up their claims but will not release it.


UPDATE: Obamses has decided the people cannot take it afterall: no evidence will be released. Wikileaks, over to you.

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  1. Who is asking you to believe everything you hear?

    AS for the ability of the Federal government to manage something, you may have missed the forest for the trees but they managed to take out Osama.

  2. Stone the crows it’s another whopper. The chorus line did not, afterall, watch bin Laden headbutt a bullet:


    One has to wonder at the Clinton gasp, what it was all for. Maybe she noticed that the wallpaper didn’t match the carpet.

    Tell you what, maybe they should start again, from the top, and this time try to get something right.

  3. Try to get something right? Like tracking down and taking out Public Enemy Number in his own compound without taking on any casualties half a world away on the soil of a dubious ally?

  4. Come on
    Calm down you two.
    He’s been taken out.
    At least,
    somebody very like him
    has been taken out..
    He wasn’t/was/might have/could have/we’ll never know now, been armed.

    At least he was buried/dumped/dropped/ misplaced at sea,
    As befits an admiral/major/quartermaster/mastermind of Al Queda’s naval division..

    A picture/cartoon/video/wordpad/finger painting may
    or may not- be issued by your administration to
    corroborate/backup/establish the likelihood/possibility
    that the guy really was
    or at least
    could be,
    Osama Bin Laden….

    (Ignore the little guy from next door who says he’s just passed OBL on his way back from the chiropdist….) 😉

  5. Pete

    Did Osama owe you money or something?

    You sound almost bereaved here

    Should we take up a collection?

    Should we put Obama on trial for harming the great man?

  6. Agit8ed,

    Good to see you in such fine form recently. You seem to have settled in nicely here in the bar at ATW. Blogging in the company of of nice folk can be very therapeutic for those who may be slightly and temporarily disillusioned with life.

    Mines a G&T! – thankee!

  7. I’d love to have a drink or three with you Ernesto.
    I always console myself with a double gin and tonic
    on the ferry back from La Belle France.
    The motorhome has to make do with water,
    and the wife with OJ and L.
    I have the strong feeling I may have raised a few hackles in the last 24 hours….
    (you might not believe it, but my wife says I can be
    extremely irritating)
    I am somewhat hesitant about leaving the house, in case the lads….. 😉

  8. Phantom –

    Bereaved? That must be the sound of a sceptical mind thinking for itself to those on euphoric autopilot. Don’t worry about the notion of Emperor Obamus giving the thumbs down to those who displease him, I will have something to say on the matter.

    You forgot to add your thoughts about the Jessica Lynch Show.

  9. Colm –

    FFS, a man and administration which uses lies and deceits daily come out with a story that’s dubious to begin with.

    They hunt down the most wanted man since the Russians took Berlin and can’t produce the body.

    They refuse to produce evidence.

    The story has been changed time and time and time again.

    I’m sorry, the sceptical mind is not the one wrapped in tin foil here. The unthinking drones accepting every part of the story even as those parts change repeatedly have the bacofoil out.

    The line tonight is that releasing the evidence would be a “national security risk”. I’ve never heard such bollocks in my life. This is plainly crap and I will not believe crap.

  10. About a week ago, Obama finally produced his birth certificate, apparently in response to the ever-more-ludicrous Trump and his fellow-Birther You Betcha from Alaska. It was immediately denounced as a forgery and yet more evidence that he comes from Mars.

    Does anyone any sane person here suppose for a minute that the same fate would not befall any photo of the dead body of Bin Laden? The conspiracy nuts are totally impervious to facts, end of.

  11. FO –

    Do you think they killed bin Laden?

    I have no idea. I’m inclined the believe he was killed on Sunday because the lie would be so outrageous, but I wouldn’t be the most surprised around if it came out that some deception is in hand. There is clearly some low level deception at play, but to lie about killing bin Laden would be the whopper of whoppers.

    So we can lay to rest the lazy charges about conspiracy theories which some come out with in lieu of debate.

    So even though I’m inclined to believe the central point of the tale, that bin Laden was topped at the weekend, much is dubious and much explanation is needed.

    I posited one such question in the first line of the post. A news station told me yesterday that the choppers had long gone by the time the Pakistani army (which was not forewarned, apparently) turned up. The most sensitive army and intelligence base is ten minutes away, a chopper crashes, a firefight ensues, and it takes the local grunts well over an hour to turn up?

    That’s BS.

  12. Pete

    Nobody has to believe every dot and comma, but why not accept the broad thrust of what happened over the weekend as the truth. Why do some people always believe that every big event must be a distorted by official lies or even complete fabrications . Sometimes things do happen basically as reported. Not everything is a front for a secret conspiracy.

  13. That’s funny, I was just thinking back to the ‘birth cert’ thing last week, which had us all (myself included) running around in knots. I wondered if there might be a sort of connection between the two stories.
    We may often criticise Obama’s Presidency, but Don’t take the entire US gov’t and its assorted agencies as fools for one moment. There are a lot of very bright and capable folks in there, and they know what they’re doing. That should be one’s starting assumption, as we try and untangle this web.

  14. Well that’s a more sensible position Pete. Operations like this are never going to be revealed in 100% technicolour full truth (so help me God) to the general public. So what’s new ? Demanding full disclosure is a futile exercise. I don’y knowm why you are getting so worked up about it.

  15. I am sure there are elements of the story that are being withheld, which is not necessarily a bad thing given certain security issues. It may very well be that Pakistan had to pretend ignorance of the raid for domestic purposes, I’m not sure. But the fundamentals are quite clear.

  16. Last week he actually produced a form of it that, by Hawaiian law, is no longer readily available from the Dept of Health without a special waiver of the law. He had in 2008 produced the form that every Hawaiian asking the state for a copy of their birth certificate gets.

  17. It may very well be that Pakistan had to pretend ignorance of the raid for domestic purposes

    Now you’re starting to think this thing out, Mahons. Try that thought in reverse, as well.

  18. Colm –

    What gets me worked up more than anything is others flinging out “conspiracy theory” charges simply for asking questions of a story which doesn’t hold together and which has changed constantly.

    It’s deceitful and I think less of the people who do it.

    None of them have the grace to acknowledge the federal government concocted a pack of lies around the Jessica Lynch “rescue” by SEALs.

    If I told someone who didn’t know that the Joint Chiefs of Staff once drew up and submitted detailed plans to launch multiple terrorist attacks in America against Americans so many would be murdered and that it would be blamed on a foreign regime, I would be accused of being a “conspiracy theorist”.

    Well excuse me for not believing everything the federal government comes out with, but that happened. It was Operation Northwoods. Go look it up, read about how its author was subsequently made NATO chief in Europe instead of dishonourably discharged and then come back and tell me I’m wrong for being questioning.

  19. Whether Bin Laden is dead or alive, there’s one thing for sure the US Government has made an almighty balls-up of handling the coverage and we conspiracy theorists aren’t half as crazy as most of you think!!! LOL

  20. >>chopper crashes, a firefight ensues, and it takes the local grunts well over an hour to turn up?
    That’s BS.<<

    Have you ever been to Pakistan?

    I'm suprised they managed to get there the same day.

  21. Pete Moore

    If you have a choice between cockup and conspiracy, go for cockup every time. It’s statistically far more likely.

    As regards this mission, there were provbably at least a dozen cockups. Uncle Sam wasn’t certain that OBL was there, but confident enough to mount a manned mission instead of a drone strike. They lost one of their two helicopters (all part of the conspiracy no doubt). They put out conflicting accounts afterwards about what had happened, how it had happened, who had been killed and how they had been killed (fog of battle or Goebbels-deception – take your choice). Oh, and the Pakistani airforce failed to scramble in time to shoot them down (wired off, or the helicopters flew under the radar from the relatively short distance of the Afghan border).

    I know which side I’d bet on, and it sure ain’t the conspiracy one. People just aren’t that smart, especially as it would require hundreds in the loop, in both USA and Pakistan.

    Heh, wait, maybe it was OBL faking his own death? Shoulda thought of that one!

  22. Tom – I’ve always thought that was a possibility. Sometimes one’s allies are unsavory (see for example Joseph Stalin).

  23. Marlloy,

    no ‘lol’ needed.

    this is serious.

    This event is a global historic opportunity for the ‘west’ to nail and diminish AQ.

    It has been handled like a third world despot country.

    Bring on the world abuse and prop from AQ…..


  24. Not just Jessica Lynch, there were fabrications regarding Pat Tillman as well.

    It is fair and proper to question what is being told, but it is absurd to automatically disbelieve everything as well.

  25. That’s fair comment, LU, but we surely cannot assume that the entire US govt, the CIA, the FBI etc etc are all numbskulls? The President may come across as this or that, dpending on one’s view, but I dare say there’s a lot of talented, resourceful minds at work across the whole spectrum.

  26. What gets me worked up more than anything is others flinging out “conspiracy theory” charges simply for asking questions of a story which doesn’t hold together and which has changed constantly.

    All you need to do is apply a little common sense. The raid took place very fast, at night, far from any US base. Some of the information came from whatever they were able to stream remotely to the situation room, some from various military audio and video, and some from the team that carried out the raid. It then went through various politicians and spokespersons who wanted to get information out as quick as possible, and probably also included leaks from people who knew less than they claimed. And finally it was reported by various journalists who may have put there own emphasis on different pieces of information that they received.

    It is no surprise whatever that some details of the events were confused when first reported.

  27. Tom

    Not fools, but prone to human error like the rest of us. Especially as they usually work 80 hour weeks.

  28. FO –

    I have seen nothing obviously made up in the press. It now parrots what governments tell it. John Brennan is no low-level official. He stood up in the White House and came out with a load of crap. He even came out with crap about a $1million compound. This tale is surrounded by BS and deception whatever the core of the story is.

  29. You make a very good general point there, Pete. ‘Conspiracy theorists’ are so routinely derided and scoffed at, that it becomes difficult to point out that, actually, governments across the world DO sometimes conspire and publish deceits and false stories when it suits them. ‘Uh-oh! – here they come again, the tinfoil hat brigade!’, everyone says in response. ‘Don’t listen to that lot; Everything governments do and say is always a truthful, above-board account’. Well, no, that’s simply not true.

  30. But the press is robustly printing the discrepancies. And offering debate as to whether or not the photos of lead poisoned Osama should be shown (I am for showing it, though it won’t satisfy the conspiracy folks).

  31. Peter –

    Oh, and the Pakistani airforce failed to scramble in time to shoot them down (wired off, or the helicopters flew under the radar from the relatively short distance of the Afghan border).

    We were told initially that the body was taken to Bagram first before going in the drink. Today we’re told it was flown stright to the USS Vinson in the Gulf of Arabia.

    Logistics, dear boy.

    We’re told Apaches and Chinooks took part. They left Jalalabad, flew to Abbottabad, picked up the goods and onto the Gulf of Arabia.

    May I suggest someone opens google earth and draws that line? Add on a bit more since very high mountains have to be got over. Add on a bit more for the very highest fuel consumption since (I assume) they didn’t spare the horses while flying down the length of Pakistan on their way to the Gulf.

    Then check out if the choppers have the range. Some day someone will piece together the timeline with the logistics and conclude that something smells.

  32. I got a text tonight with a joke in it that I wish I could print here. The jokes are flying thick and fast…

  33. Well Tom, Pete isn’t coming at this out of a thin air, he’s an advocate of or at least enamored with other such theories (9/11, birth certificate of the President etc.). I don’t ever recall him joining Allan’s Holocaust denialist theories, but he’s supported enough others that we can point to that as part of the game here. And no one here has ever written that everything governments do or say is always truthful. No one.

  34. Well I’ll stick with cock-up. I know it’s not funny, but really is it possible to believe anyone any longer, particularly those in Government on both sides of the pond?

    We are never told the truth about anything so we might as well resign ourselves to that fact. If as Fews suggests that some of the details of the events were confused when first reported, then wouldn’t it have been prudent to say nothing until the facts were confirmed and the people could hear the truth – just once – and not an ever changing version every few hours.

  35. Anyway, here’s some light relief from Palin, speaking on Monday night:

    “LAKEWOOD — Less than 24 hours after the world learned Osama bin Laden was dead, former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin took the stage at Colorado Christian University to headline a group of speakers who paid tribute to American troops and hailed the killing of the world’s most-wanted man.

    “Their courage and their determination brought us justice,” Palin said of those who hunted the terrorist figurehead for nearly 10 years. “They know that freedom isn’t free. It’s a God-given right and worth fighting for.”

    Palin never mentioned President Barack Obama by name — instead saying, “We thank President (George W.) Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory.”

    What a bigot, but ‘m sure that Patty will be cool with it. Link here

  36. poor, poor, – not the postings…

    the last bloggers should be at least in the employment.

  37. Peter – I would say Palin simply doesn’t get it. She’s also fading (but slowly).

  38. Holocaust denial from Allan? Really? I doubt that. I think Allan has scarcely seen a kooky conspiracy theory that he wasn’t up for, but I’ve never seen him post anything like that.

  39. Pete

    Mountains give radars a few problems as well. And there might have been a few deliberate lies, possibly to protect a few agents or whatever. Just because we are not told the whole truth within three days does not mean that there must be a vast conspiracy.

    Reality, dear boy.

  40. It is some nutcase who has Youutbe Ravings who Allan has with favor referred us to a couple times at least. He’s been coy when introducing it which is why I think it has not fully dawned on everyone here. Now I have to go search and find it (P.S. Frank, glad to see you pop in – Monica and troll won’t bbe able to say you were Osama).

  41. No seriously, Mahons, please provide some evidence. For people such as myself, belief isn’t enough. And for you, as a lawyer, it shouldn’t be either, but it is.

    The narrative is falling apart more quickly than a fake birth certificate. Even with the MSM, Phantom and Mahons on-side, the line can’t hold. here’s a piece from the Daily Telegraph:

    – But yesterday a US congressman cast doubt on whether the DNA tests had yet been carried out. Representative Ron Paul, a Republican presidential candidate and a doctor, said: “I understand he was killed Sunday afternoon and by Sunday nine o’clock it was announced that the President would speak and they had DNA proof of the individual. I didn’t know they could do DNA that quickly. Then they came back and said it was facial features and we’ll get the results of the DNA later” –

    But what does a ‘kook’ like Ron Paul know? Perhaps the SEALS have mobile DNA-assessment labs. For me, the real contrast is how the bodies of the sons of Saddam Hussein were made public, and graphically so, after they had been shot dead. Yet OBL is buried at sea whilst still warm. It takes a true believer to believe in nonsense like that.

  42. Well, not being in a position to know either way…I would say that either the whole news story about the death of OBL, and the way it is being handled by the White House, is a complete shoddy shambles….or else there is a genuine message in there somewhere, which is intended for a particular recipient, which had to be seen to be genuinely coming ‘from the President’ in order to be believed by that intended recipient. I have no idea.

  43. He did; it’s become something of a new conspiracy interest for him. What’s more, it apparently went totally unnoticed and unremarked by several of our philo-semitic guardians here, who are otherwise falling over themselves diagnosing “Joo hatred” at the slightest criticism of Israel. Allan is after all on the right side of the line in most debates.

  44. Mahons –

    Well Tom, Pete isn’t coming at this out of a thin air, he’s an advocate of or at least enamored with other such theories (9/11, birth certificate of the President etc.).

    Woah, back the bus up there.

    9/11 – I’ve said in here I believe bin Laden and Atta etc are responsible. I am not convinced by the technical aspects of the investigation and there’s no way the government report is full and comprehensive, but I am not “enamoured” with “9/11 conspiracy theories”.

    The birth certificate – what?

    I have said in here I have no doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. This comes from seeing a copy of a local newspaper announcing the birth, as published by Lew Rockwell a couple of years ago. Last week I asked if anyone anti-birthers can explain the questions raised in a video posted by Allan@Aberdeen, due mostly to my technical ignorance. He posted that video which, to me, seemed to ask legitimate questions. It’s only fair that un-birthers have the opportnity to respond.

    JM (IIRC) did so and his explanation seems convincing.

    On these questions something applies both ways. That is, when you promote and advance a position you must justify it with evidence. Would I believe a 9/11 conspiracy theory? Yes, if someone can lay compelling evidence,which no-one has yet done.

    However, we can turn this reasonable position around: those who state that bin Laden was topped on Sunday really ought to be judged by the same standard and lay out compelling evidence likewise, shouldn’t they?

  45. I can see that it’s already too late to convince the conspiracy nuts. The narrative is set in concrete, and no evidence will change it now.

    Bin Laden Lives!

  46. The only remaining question of interest is when will Trump, Palin, Fox, the Tea Party, and the rest of the gang join Patty, Pete Moore and Allan and come out as Bin Laden Conspiracists – I’m sure they will think of something more catchy – maybe Earthers?

    After all, it’s way beyond dispute that everything the Federal Government says is a lie, and most especially a government led by The Man From Who Knows Where. So let’s get to it!

  47. LOL, yes it would have given them apoplexy if it had come from Daytripper. He was downplaying Auchwitz as a jewish Death Camp if I recall correctly.

  48. I said I believe bin Laden was killed on Sunday and I responded to you in good faith.

    Stop being a dickhead.

  49. And the latest excuse for the shooting of an unarmed person – why they feared he might be wearing a suicide vest! – and it took them twenty four hours to think that one up!

    Peter, “Bin Laden Lives!” – counting from day one, you are the first to even say that, – you must be the original conspiracy nut!!! are there such things as ‘bigot nuts’?

  50. Struggling to stay relevant is more like it, Mahons.

    I think the administration is making a huge mistake by not releasing the photos. Muslim sensibilities and conspiracy theorists be damned, the American public deserves to see pictures of this man stone cold dead.

    If we could watch people leaping to their deaths from 60 stories, Daniel Pearl beheaded in cold blood and graphic photos of mutilated American contractors swinging from a bridge – the muslim world can stomach a gruesome head shot or two of this vile son of a bitch.

    After one truly ballsy, Guns of Navarrone move, Obama has managed to warp into a goddamn pussy with lightening speed.

    I hate politicians, they’re all worthless sociopaths.

  51. Peter: well, it won’t be “racers” – that inexplicable need to label any criticism of Obama as “racist” -that label has already been claimed by the Progressive Left and the MSM.

  52. If bin laden lives then why are they to hold a prayer vigil for him outside the US embassy in London this coming Sunday?

  53. Untrue there is zero supportfor the claim that “any criticism” of Obama is racist in the MSM (or the Progressive Left)

  54. I agree. We should not just publish the photo, we should make it a stamp!

  55. Is that your answer – an non-answer?

    As far as I know, it is Ron Paul MD. This being the case, it means he knows rather more than you would about DNA testing so his scepticism is valid.

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