96 2 mins 10 yrs

This story has caused quite a furore today south of the border;

THE mayor of Naas Darren Scully bowed to pressure this evening and resigned his position on the Town Council after he warned in a radio interview that he would refuse to represent members of the black community.

The Fine Gael councillor, was reported to gardai after he told the Kfm radio station he found “black Africans” to be aggressive and bad mannered. Naas Town Council called a special meeting this evening in the wake of the racism controversy.

Cllr Scully was accused of racism after the interview in which he said: “I’ve been met with aggressiveness, I’ve been met with bad manners and I’ve also been played the race card. “It’s been said, ‘You would help white people but you don’t help black people’.” He went on to say: “After a while of this I made a decision that I was not going to take on representations from Africans. I’ve said that I would be very courteous to them and that I would pass on their query to other public representatives who would take their concerns.”

Now then, was he right to resign? Is he a racist? I think he had little choice to resign given the fact that he did not stand on a manifesto of only helping friendly people. On the other  hand, IF he finds a particular group aggressive and ill-mannered, hasn’t he the right to direct them elsewhere? Is this an example of intolerance from ALL sides but the loser is the Mayor?

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96 thoughts on “NAASTY NAASTY?

  1. If he has never met an aggressive and bad mannered white person then he has been extremely lucky.

  2. What an interesting situation!
    My own attitude was shaped by years spent in the West Midlands living in an area with sizeable communities of afro-caribbeans, muslims and sikhs.

    There is the unfamiliarity of appearance.. colour and dress,
    and lifestyles, values and behaviours. There is the problems in communication. Not just language, but thought. These are some of the difficulties a person of my generation might face, but I suppose younger generations probably see things differently.
    Certainly the aggression and bad manners are not confined to any one group: there are plenty of ignorant and aggressive white people around!

    I would imagine Cllr Scully encounters all sorts in his daily life as a councillor; I know I did.
    What I would say is what I personally find difficult is dealing with aggression and rudeness from people who have chosen to make their home here, but don’t want to assimilate into our culture. People who perhaps are dependent on state benefits, yet reject our values, or act aggressively, or refuse to do honest work.

    We shouldn’t stereotype, but there are certain characteristics which seem to be more frequent amongst certain types. To call Cllr Scully racist would in my view mean proving that he always had a negative and judgmental attitude towards Africans.
    My own subjective opinion is that you call it as you experience it. I don’t believe in abusing anyone either physically or verbally. There is never any excuse for ill treating anyone on the grounds of race or religion, but that doesn’t mean we should be blind to the failings or bad/barbaric practices of minority groups.

  3. Is it me or do his quotes add up to “it has been said of me you won’t help black people, therefore i have decided not to help black people.”

    Isn’t that like saying it has been said of me i drink too much, therefore I will drink too much.

  4. Good grief you can’t go around thinking stuff like that! Thats thoughtcrime.
    Punishable by endless Elf n Saftey lectures no doubt.

    Dearie me no.

    He probably should have said that (and probably meant to say) if ANYONE treats my staff or myself in a unpleasant manner then I reserve the right to refuse to assist them and direct them to one of my colleagues.

    There that fixed it.

    He’s obviously just decided to quit and needed a push.

  5. Mahons,
    he seems to be saying that his experience of interacting with black/African residents left him with the impression that they are aggressive and bad mannered, yherefore he didn’t want to continue in his role.
    I think the US situation is very different to the European experience, where widespread immigration has only happened since WW2.
    Personally I think many native white people have made racial awareness into the boogeyman of Racism.
    Goodness me, if you consider the obvious difference between you American bloggers to us British. We speak the same language, but our use of idioms and humour is very different.
    Is the observation of,and annunciation of those differences an act of racism or an act of awareness?

  6. As Dog said above, the proper reposnse should have been to simply refuse to assist anyone who was rude and disrespectful regardless of race. If a polite well spoken African constituent with a genuine problem came to him for help and he said no I won’t help you purely because you are African then yes he is being racist.

  7. Agit8ed – Might his experience in Kildare provided him with the opportunity to interface with native-born residents who could be aggressive or bad mannered? Are they unheard of in Kildare?

    And who is agressive and bad mannered – perhaps a mayor who claims that his experiences with some African Immigrants leads him to beleive he must avoid dealings with all?

  8. Colm,
    But he is still left with his experiences of his African residents.. Is he therefore to pretend those things never happened, or is he allowed to associate those experiences with a group if the behaviour was common amongst that group?
    There are people who comment here on Irish affairs who quite plainly are judgmental towards Protestants, Catholics or mainland Brits.. That’s life.

  9. Agit8ed- He is left with what he claims are his experiences. He is entitled to his opinion but he is not entitled to not perform his job duties because of his opinions.

  10. Agreed Mahons,
    and if he decides that his “claimed experiences” mean that he no longer wishes to do the job, is he wrong to say so?

  11. Agit8ed – That is not what he said. He said he would not perform his job duties based upon a person’s race.

    He is free to resign his position, which he has now done.

  12. Agit8ed

    Of course if he does not wish to continue doing the job he is perfectly at liberty to quit and to give his reasons why , but he is not entitled to be the elected representative for a geographical area and then say he will not represent all people of a particular racial background – treating them all the same because of his unpleasant experiences with some of them.

  13. There’s a black community in Naas? Why is there a black community in Naas? Could Naas or Ireland not get by without a black community?

  14. There’s a racist liar community in Aberdeen? Why is there a racist liar community in Aberdeen? Could Aberdeen or Scotland not get by without a racist liar community?

  15. FO –

    That racism stuff was a dull accusation a long time ago. Why does Naas need ‘a black community’?

  16. What difference does it make whether Naas “needs” a black community, whatever that’s supposed to mean? If they’re residents of the place they should be treated as such. If he believes that rude and aggressive behavior is more common among one racial group of his constituents then he is an idiot and, yes, a racist.

  17. I don’t think that Fews can answer the question hence his resort to insults. On the ‘racist’ jibe, whoop-dee-doo: on ‘liar’, Fews is harking back to a quotation which was attributed to Benjamin Franklin about the dangers of letting Jews into the US – words to the effect of Americans being impoverished in their own land. Here is the original source of the quotation:

    but somebody got to it to ensure that adults couldn’t see it to make up their own minds as to its authenticity – for some reason.

    Back to the main event: why does Naas need a black community?

  18. Allan,

    Did you know that Naas means “mankind” in Somali?

    And did you know you’re a fuckwit?

  19. on ‘liar’, Fews is harking back to a quotation which was attributed to Benjamin Franklin

    and the made up Talmud quotes, and the made up dual US/Israeli citizens.

  20. I used to work in Kildare, they’re a rough bunch around there. Anyone – especially a paid public servant – who can’t handle a bit of bad manners and aggression shouldn’t have applied for a job in the first place.

    Of course, no big surprise from a party that started out like this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQzsU3UAHjs&feature=related

    Kildare has a black community because blacks went to live there because there was work and opportunity for them. They get along well with the locals. Neighbouring Portlaoise has a black mayor; elected by the people after arriving as a penniless refugee from Nigeria only seven years previously.

  21. Noel,

    “Portlaoise has a black mayor”

    South Africa, which is 80% bleck, had several white prime ministers. It’s a funny old world.

  22. It looks as though the majority of respondents favour having a black community in Naas. Is this considered to be an improvement on whites? For example, the indigenous white communities of Birmingham, Leicester and London are now minorities: is this a good thing which should be welcomed in Ireland?

  23. This guy has courted controversy before with young pregnant teens. Scully said they only got pregnant to get bumped up the housing ladder. He said they were going around looking on advice on how to get pregnant, as if teens wouldn’t know now a days!! This story is from Irish daily mail and contrary to what is quoted here that paper doesn’t seem to be condoning it. They point out that Scully even posed with young black children on the hustings, so this outburst is rather hypocritical of him.

  24. I don’t think that Fews can answer the question hence his resort to insults.

    He wasn’t insulting you, he was merely repeating a completely genuine quote made about you by Benjamin Franklin.

  25. Ross,
    “He wasn’t insulting you, he was merely repeating a completely genuine quote made about you by Benjamin Franklin.”

    Excellent!

  26. Allan,
    “It looks as though the majority of respondents favour having a black community in Naas. Is this considered to be an improvement on whites?”

    I would rather go back to pre-multicultural Britain. I don’t like what is happening to my country, I don’t regard it as a blessing to be able to see the cultures of the world “doing their thing” on my doorstep.
    Call me old fashioned, but forced marriages, honour killings, black on black schoolboy killings, hatred of Christianity, hatred of homosexuals or our soldiers, or our Queen; just don’t do it for me.

    But that still doesn’t give me the right to hate them or abuse them.
    So I bury myself in the Norfolk countryside, where there are pigs on every corner, kids still seem to like being kids and my neighbours are civil, pleasant and don’t want to outbreed me or make me feel guilty for slavery….
    You get the picture.

  27. Agit8ed-

    That’s not old fashioned, or outdated, or some other pejorative term the cultural Leftists use to intimidate. It’s perfectly natural. Humans are tribal, we prefer the company of our own kind in our own place.

    Multiculti ideology, on the other hand, is perverse and unnatural. How else can it be imposed but by law and severe punishment for heretics?

  28. Humans are tribal, we prefer the company of our own kind in our own place.

    Then the Brits shouldn’t have gone off on their colonising jaunt around the world.

  29. In fact seperation of the races by law was a historical imposition that has ended (in the US and in South Africa) and the punishment s back then for breaking those laws were far worse than anything the Ass of Naas experienced.

  30. FO –

    In many places coloured pink very few of us did, in fact, take the blessings of British Civilisation to a world which didn’t deserve it. The entire Empire was governed by fewer civil servants than now work for Hackney Council in London.

    Even then, they were polite enough to naff off home at the end of it.

  31. The entire Empire was governed by fewer civil servants than now work for Hackney Council in London.

    I think you will find that there were a few soldiers involved as well.

    But the fruits of the colonising binge are apparent for all to see. The vast majority of the ethnic minorities in the UK are from the sub continent and the Caribbean.

    Why not East Asia rather than South Asia? Why not South America rather than the Caribbean?

    Because South Asia and the Caribbean are where the Brits colonised.

  32. FO –

    Not so many soldiers. Where possible regiments were raised locally under British command.

    This ‘fruits of the colonising binge’ line is odd, as if Britain owes a home to anyone who ever basked under the Pax Britannica. The idea of de-colonisation was wrap it up and go home. Where some moral duty to import millions from the other side of the world comes from isn’t logically clear.

  33. Pete and Allan posed the question “Why does Naas need a black community” . That question only has validity if it had been stated that they were only there because they were needed. If Allan or Pete can prove that is the case then their question becomes valid.

    Pete

    You always harp on about the wonderful pre-1911 world where government hardly existed and man could live from cradle to grave without hardly ever needing to come into contact with the state. That also of course included a world without passports or State border controls certainly as far as the UK is concerned. There were no legal limits on residency or immigration. Surely such freedom of movement and non-interference by government is exactly what you would like to see restored to our not-so-green but bureaucratic land ?

  34. Since we are talking about Ireland may I point out Kildare’s population (what 200-300 thousand) probably has less than 2000 African Immigrants.

  35. Colm – I re-phrased the question to “why does Naas HAVE a black community” which was pointed out by Neal some time back. That question is surely pertinent and seems to be beyond the likes of Fews, but is it beyond you?

  36. Naas has a black community for much the same reason Boston and New York have Irish ones, people immigrated.

  37. Mahons,

    “the Ass of Naas”

    A bit of trivia, but it may interest you to know that Naas is actually pronounced to rhyme with “race” 🙂

  38. Pete

    I didn’t say anything about “owing” or “moral duty”. Just pointing out that the reason why the UK has it’s particular mix of ethnic minorities is because of their particular imperial history.

    It’s the same reason why France has ethnic minorities from it’s former colonies.

    A@A

    “why does Naas HAVE a black community?”
    As has already been pointed out to you it is because people moved there. Just as people have been moving from one place to another throughout recorded history.

  39. It is noted that the non native population of Birmingham England was ” only 1% ” at one time

    Immigration should generally be permitted only when it suits the needs of the receiving country.

    If you can make the case how it has been of a great benefit to Birmingham, etc. then please do so.

    Those who question the need for immigration from very different societies should not be shouted down as racists.

    Were these legal immmigrants or did they sneak in when no one was looking? What needed skills did they bring? Are they on the benefits at a higher or lower rate than the native community?

    This percentage will not stay at 1%. Let’s see what this place looks like in twenty years.

  40. Richard – As the prostitute said to the leper, thanks for the tip.

    Phantom – people who challenge immigration or the need for same are not necessarily racist or prejudice, but obviously some are. I wouldn’t make a call either way without a basis to do so.

  41. The issue of unneeded immigration from very different societies is worthy of debate.

    And you guys are ignoring all experience from neighboring countries, such as France and England, where such immigration has had overwhelmingly negative impacts on Paris, Marseille, Birmingham, Manchester, Rotterdam, Bruxelles etc.

    And you just assume that Ireland will be different.

    Well, no it most certainly will not be any different.

    See you in 25 years.

  42. FO –

    I didn’t say anything about “owing” or “moral duty”. Just pointing out that the reason why the UK has it’s particular mix of ethnic minorities is because of their particular imperial history.

    If there was anything to go on in your explanation I’d ask what the causative link is. The truth is that we suffer from mass immigration not because of our glorious imperial legacy.

    It is because Clement Atlee’s socialist/communist regime made the conscious decision to open our borders to particular immigrants and actively encourage them to come here. The Tories spinelessly accepted the ‘post-war settlement’, including this aspect of it.

    The cultural Marxist ratchet means that the policy can move only one way, that the door may only be widened further and that to suggest closing it is racist, as if anyone with a brain would care about such a cheap accusation.

  43. Colm,
    “Pete and Allan posed the question “Why does Naas need a black community” . That question only has validity if it had been stated that they were only there because they were needed. If Allan or Pete can prove that is the case then their question becomes valid.”

    Gettin’ a bit scholarly an’ intellectual, ain’tcha ?

  44. “It is noted that the non native population of Birmingham England was ” only 1% ” at one time

    Immigration should generally be permitted only when it suits the needs of the receiving country.”

    A very curious remark from a white person from eastern America, where the non-native population was I believe “only 0% at one time”.

    Not much thought of the “needs of the receiving country” when oneself is the beneficiary, is there?

  45. Well Noel

    That goes back to the comment made on these pages before that what is happening in England is population replacement.

    What will this population be in Ireland in 25 years time?

    Will Dublin get the same benefits as the Paris suburbs have received due to ” racism ” on the part of the locals?

  46. Colm –

    “You always harp on about the wonderful pre-1911 world where government hardly existed and man could live from cradle to grave without hardly ever needing to come into contact with the state.”

    Yes, glorious days.

    “That also of course included a world without passports or State border controls certainly as far as the UK is concerned. There were no legal limits on residency or immigration.”

    True, but foreigners tended to not wander off the cabbage patch back then. If 250,000 Afghans, Pakistanis, Bosnians and other types turned up in 1911 I suspect the military would have been mobilised to see them off with a jolly good thrashing for their impertinence.

  47. You didn’t have 747s into Heathrow from Bumfuck, Egypt from sunup to sunset in those days either.

  48. I don’t know what the status of the African Immigrants into Naas may have been. Some no doubt were students, others probably worked in blue collar jobs. I know that getting an irish person to take a job in a restaraunt or hotel or factory during the Celtic Tiger was next to impossible and many immigrants came in to fill that need.

  49. “That goes back to the comment made on these pages before that what is happening in England is population replacement.”

    Not sure what you mean by “population replacement”.

    I should, however, point out to outsiders that Naas is now a dormitary town of Dublin and probably about half the population doesn’t have a single grandparent from the place. This huge movement happened in the past 10 years. Is that what you mean?

    Now, will someone tell me what the problem is.

  50. The truth is that we suffer from mass immigration not because of our glorious imperial legacy.

    Nonsense, you told all the people in the pink bits of the world that they were British, some of them believed you ( and it happened well before Atlee was PM).

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/4-5/17/section/1/enacted

    British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914
    1 Definition of natural-born British subject
    (1)The following persons shall be deemed to be natural-born British subjects, namely :—
    (a)Any person born within His Majesty’s dominions and allegiance;

  51. Reasonable restrictions on immigration are certainly subject to analysis. The story here dealt not with that but with a Mayor who proclaimed he would ignore one segement of the population becasue of their origin.

  52. “British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914”

    Bullseye, Fews. My, this is fun.

  53. Population replacement- the ethnic cleansing that has happened in neighborhoods and even cities in England and France over the past thirty years.

    There would be nearly no French people in lots of areas of inner city Marseille for example. And you won’t see too many celebrations of English culture in lots of areas of Manchester or Birmingham any time soon. Or of French culture in the banlieues of Paris.

    Because the population of those places has changed,entirely.

    Maybe it’s great – you tell me. But there has been a complete population exchange in some areas as comprehensive as anything in India / Pakistan back in the late forties.

    But yeah maybe its been a huge benefit to someone.

  54. Few – Poor Pete, the world went to shit in 1914, only 3 years after the good old days of 1911.

  55. A@A – “why does Naas HAVE a black community?”
    As has already been pointed out to you it is because people moved there.

    But people, indigenous people, were already there. Those who were already there were not consulted as to whether they would like a black community to be created out of nothing within their own town. Nobody gets asked as to whether it’s a good idea to bring the 3rd-world into Ireland, the UK, Europe or anywhere that white people predominate.

    Perhaps Fews would make the case as to why it’s a good idea to create a black community in Naas or Ireland generally. As far as I’m aware, Ireland has no colonial or empire-building history in Africa so please, do enlighten me.

  56. FO –

    Yes, and you can go back further if you like. I believe there was a similar nationality Act passed in 1870.

    Regarding the 1914 Act, India became an independent nation in 1947, about when Clement Atlee’s government started shipping them in. Pakistan became fully independent about a decade later, and they’re arriving higher numbers than ever now.

    The 1914 Act ceased to have effect for hundreds of millions on the sub-continent, and hundreds of millions elsewhere, before successive encouraged mass immigration from those newly-independent nations.

  57. I’m not quite sure what Mayors are actually supposed to do, as I’ve never had to call one out, and if I did I’d probably go private. But as Mayors are part of the ponzi sector, I do feel that they ought to waste everyone’s taxes equally, and not just pick and choose.

  58. Irish connections with Africa are suprising of longer nature than one would imagine. For a small nation Ireland produced a large number of Christian missionaries who went to Africa. having no colonial history in Africa the Irish don’t have a lot of the same baggage that other European nations might have. Of course, as an English-speaking nation that woul attract Africans who speak English. Ireland also has had experience with having its own population emigrate so there would be a consistency in accepting immigrants from other nations.

  59. Allan

    The reason why Naas has an African population is because people from Africa have moved there for more than one reason. The main reason of course is because they can enjoy a better standard of living there and they have been allowed by the Irish authoritiies to enter. Some do so in order to work either through skilled work or in many cases being willing to do low paid unskilled jobs that native Irish people won’t do. Some are willing to live on benefits as this will still be better and more secure than their livelihoods back in their native countries, and some have come purely as genuine asylum seekers. No doubt there are many illegal entries also. Those are the reasons and everyone knows they are the reasons. It isn’t rocket science.

    I do not approve of mass immigration. I share the view that it has been and is too high in Western European countries and I don’t casually accuse anyone of racism just because they oppose levels of immigration. My point to Pete about the pre-1911 lack of restricitions was not because I think we should go back to those days but just to demonstrate how easy it really is to peel back the layers of Pete’s anti-government stance. Like most of us Pete isn;t really against the power of the State, he just wants the State to enforce the policies he approves of.

  60. Some are willing to live on benefits as this will still be better and more secure than their livelihoods back in their native countries

    Well, yeahhhh

    Why should this ever be allowed?

    Do you realize how small your countries are in relation to the rest of the world? How many tens and hundreds of millions of people will immigrate to your lands if they were permitted to?

  61. Phantom

    It shouldn’t be allowed and I don’t understand why politicians are unwilling to stop it, but it is also true that a large number of natives also live easily on benefits. This is not an issue that should be seen as a racial problem. It is a cultural one. Many millions of people of all races have entered Britain in recent years and found work , with a work ethic and willingness to do jobs that born Britons (of all races) won’t do. Our welfare system allows such a casual attitude to employment amongst those who have the rights to benefits.

  62. Colm –

    Well, yes …

    “Many millions of people of all races have entered Britain in recent years and found work , with a work ethic and willingness to do jobs that born Britons (of all races) won’t do.”

    … but our culture has been irrevocably changed because of it. Britons tended to like their nation, they valued their birthrights and heritage. Their culture was overturned and liberties destroyed because of it.

    It’s not simply about colour. Most Britons don’t give a damn about someone’s colour, but they don’t want their country changed and their children’s birthrights removed regardless of whether or not an immigrant wants to work.

  63. I’d start with changing the language.

    No one should have the ” right ” to any of this.

    I think it is right and proper for society to give to ( it’s own ) truly needy, but I will never understand why you or we ever tolerate:

    a) giving benefits to new immigrants

    b) giving any benefits to anyone who can work but who chooses not to

    I don’t get it and will never get it. When the incentives are all wrong the behavior is all wrong.

  64. The benefits (or hand outs) are indeed a problem, not just for immigrants in Ireland but for some of the native born. But lets focus on the immigrant population. I don’t think it makes any sense whatsoever to grant housing, cars and financial benefits to immigrants for the sake of arrival. That just creates a dependent subculture right out of the gate and encourages more of that type of immigrant.

  65. Pete

    What do you mean by ‘children’s birthrights’ – what are birthrights’- that’s the silly language of the entitlement brigade. The British people are free to elect a party to government that will deal with immigration but they never do – they stick overwhelmingly with the 3 main parties who haven’t reversed the trend. The British people either aren’t prepared to put their money where there moths are, or at the ballot box they really don;t treat it as the most important issue.

  66. It’s all quite simple:
    People like receiving money from other people without having to earn it.
    Politicians like receiving votes from people without having to earn them.
    Many people will vote for political parties which bribe them with other people’s money.

  67. To put it as succinctly as I can, I believe that the concept of universal suffrage in a country, creates a fundamental conflict with (and violation of) the concept of property rights.

  68. It worked very well in the US until recent times.

    The Democrat / Republican initiatives to take more and more people off the federal tax rolls has had significant unexpected consequences.

    Unexpected, for some.

    People do like free stuff, there is no question about it.

  69. Exactly, Phantom.
    Trouble is, there is no such thing (at the end of the day) as free stuff.
    To give a person ‘free stuff’ means stealing that stuff from someone else, whether it’s free goods or free votes, there’s no difference.
    We have decided in our modern societies that (almost) everyone has the automatic right to vote. Voting is “free”, as it were.
    However, politicians VALUE votes, therefore they’re not free, they have a price. And that price (like all wealth) can only be paid either by earning it or by stealing it with other people’s money.

  70. Tom Tyler –

    As Hans-Hermann Hoppe put it in his great essay ‘Down With Democracy‘:

    “One-man-one-vote combined with ‘free entry’ into government – democracy – implies that every person and his personal property comes within reach of – and is up for grabs by – everyone else.”

  71. I’m not on the page as Pete on this thing.

    I believe in things like universal health care and a good education for the working class and government organized mass transit. Those things benefit all in my eye.

    I wouldn’t give much of anything to the OWS types and their brothers on the dole who wake up at 10am to watch Jerry Springer all day.

    Somehow the layabouts got confused in the minds of some as being part of the working class. Not by me.

    Decent public services for the working taxpayer is not the same as ” free stuff “.

  72. Will someone inject a bit of reality into this discussion by telling us
    – what “benefits” immigrants to IRL from non-EU countries receive, if any
    – what proportion of such immigrants live on handouts and what proportion work.

    Listing these equally among the other, infintiely more frequent, reasons, as Colm does is unfair and dangerous.

    I don’t know many immigrants in Ireland, but I don’t know a single one outside Dublin, or have never heard from anyone of a single one, who doesn’t work. In fact, the general story you hear is that they work well. Even those Irish people who are by inclination anti-immigrant focus their criticism on some alleged lawlessness or lack of cultural assimilation or whatever, not on immigrants’ reluctance to work.

    Disappointed in you Phantom referring to the natural movement of people in western Europe as “ethnic cleansing”.

    And it’s really a bit rich coming from someone who is very slow to condemn a genuine and deliberate attempt at “ethnic cleansing” for political reasons, where one ethnic group receives government encouragement and support in supplanting the native population with a view to a territorial claim that is already being made.

    Well said, mahons. The role of Irish missionaries in the 3rd world is a subject for another thread, but is one that is very seriously neglected, including by Irish people. In many ways, these young Irish people represented the very best of our country – they were generous, committed to helping others and prepared to make the greatest sacrifices for no recognition and or official gratitude. They were too idealistic and had too strong a sense of right and wrong to be satisfied with life in the stuffy church back home. They brought this sense of justice and generosity with them, and in time implanted it in their host societies.

  73. “I’d start with changing the language.

    No one should have the ” right ” to any of this.

    I think it is right and proper for society to give to ( it’s own ) truly needy, but I will never understand why you or we ever tolerate:

    a) giving benefits to new immigrants

    b) giving any benefits to anyone who can work but who chooses not to

    I don’t get it and will never get it. When the incentives are all wrong the behavior is all wrong.

    That is very well said, Phantom, and we have indeed been sold a pup on this issue of equality =ing entitlement. I also agree with Pete Moore’s comment (but please don’t tell him), at 4.43pm,

    “That’s not old fashioned, or outdated, or some other pejorative term the cultural Leftists use to intimidate. It’s perfectly natural. Humans are tribal, we prefer the company of our own kind in our own place”.

    That’s what it’s all about; “preferring the company of our own kind in our own place.”

  74. You’re not quite grasping the fundamental nature of economic value, Phantom.
    You CAN’T just decree that everyone will have “Decent public services” without someone having to PAY for it. Wealth (or things of value, such as a transport service) cannot just be GIVEN to everyone for free. It has to cost someone, and unless the total transaction results in a bargain for both parties, the recepients are unduly incentivised to receive that value, and the funders are unduly dis-incentivised to give it.

  75. Noel

    I don’t see what was unfair or dangerous in anything I said. I stated several reasons why there would be African people living in an Irish town and none of those reasons are untrue. It is too simplistic to claim singular reasons for a particular group’s presence, whether it’s the “they’re all lazy spongers draggging our civilised world down” racist end of the spectrum or the “they’re all fantastically hard working and wonderfully benefitial to rhe host country” rosy eyed end of the spectrum.

  76. Phantom –

    I believe in health care, education and transport too. We simply disagree on how they can be best delivered.

    I think the best way is to leave it to the kind of people who invented, made and delivered your iPad. You think the best way is to leave it to the kind of people who created Fannie and Freddie.

    😉

  77. Thanks for that link, Pete M. The author has thought these things through and expresses them far more comprehensively than I can, and he includes several ideas and consequences which had not crossed my mind at all. It’s great to read and learn from what others have already written.

  78. In short, Irish missionaries went to Africa and Africans have the right through this link to move to Ireland? I must say that I consider that to be absurd.

    As for ‘doing the jobs that Irish won’t do’, there is no job that the Irish won’t do, and there is no job that I haven’t done on my ascent from school pupil to Chartered Engineer. I worked as a farm labourer, grouse-beater, postman, fruit and potato picker, barman, waiter, machine operator – and then I began my career following completion of studies. That’s what it is and thousands of young Irish are no different from me. It is vital to instilling a work ethic in people that such jobs be available to young Irish people and not given away to anybody from outside. The result would be a slovenly, workshy class which just can’t be bothered. Cut the benefits and make the little jobs available, then the willingness to work will return.

  79. Tom and Pete

    Do you not realise that the most affluent and economiclaly succesfull societies have always been those that practise the most comprehensive and widespread democracy.

  80. Allan

    You are right about the benesfits issue but wrong about the jobs being ‘given away’ to foreigners. Natives are just as free to apply and put themselves foward to do those jobs, they are not banned from them, they just don’t want them and the foreigners do. The little jobs are not ring fenced for black people only.

  81. Getting back to David’s question – yes, he was right to resign, slightly redeeming himself for a revoltingly racist position that dishonoured the democratic office he held.

  82. Colm –

    You hardly explain a causative link with that assertion.

    The most affluent societies also tend to be those which enforce capitalist property right, contracts and allow free-is markets to flourish.

    Our greatest economic growth, the greatest in the history of mankind, occured before unversal suffrage.

    I so recommend that great essay to you.

  83. My IPad rests on a foundation of fundamental government research done by the US and Europe. The Internet and WWW were invented as part of govt research.

    I have quoted Bill Gates here to testfy on that point- he called the govt funded CERN produced product the ultimate killer app

    Without the Internet or web the insane greatness of the iPad or what follows it could not exist

    Many other good things have come fron govt and private endeavors and partnerships. It is not an either/or proposition. We need continued govt research and we absolutely need more and more capitalist startups and research.

    The government would never develop the PC or IPad but private industry did not do the research into what one day became the Internet

    Bill gates speech on this
    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/writing/shapingtheinternet.mspx

  84. –Disappointed in you Phantom referring to the natural movement of people in western Europe as “ethnic cleansing”.–

    The vast suburbs of Paris that no longer have French people in them – what happened there? It is not fair or accurate to say that the residents of what once were pleasant areas left on their own accord. There were French there for centuries and then in the blink of an eye of a few decades poof no French anymore. Pourqoi?

    There was nothing natural at all in any of it, nor was it a movement within Europe.

    There are few to none Europeans in some of these places, and there won’t be any in the future. The terrain is deeply hostile to them now and any few remaining old people who could not afford to leave live out their days in fear.

    If this is not ethnic cleansing, there is no ethnic cleansing anywhere. It is not Srebrenica, but it was not right, and all here know it.

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