47 2 mins 9 yrs

Hard to distinguish between the hype and the actual but I suppose we should all be somewhat concerned;

A senior Iranian commander says the country has reverse-engineered an American spy drone captured by Tehran’s armed forces last year and has begun building a copy. Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, who is chief of the aerospace division of the powerful Revolutionary Guards, was quoted Sunday by the semi-official Mehr news agency as saying that experts are also recovering data from the US RQ-170 Sentinel captured in December in eastern Iran. He said that information retrieved from the drone shows it was used in US missions against Osama bin Laden in Pakistan.

We’ll see although my instinct is to think that US intelligence will have put in place certain contingencies to cope with such a set of circumstances.

The real issue here is not the reverse engineering of a drone but rather the unquestionable reverse engineering of Iranian civilisation since Ayatollah Khomeini swept to power in 1979. Two Islamic thumbs way up to former US President Jimmy Carter for his assistance in that regard. A once proud Nation has descended into a theocratic Islam tyranny which shows scant regard for the sanctity of human life. The world’s first Islamic Republic is the place which hangs gays, stones the allegedly adulterous to death, sponsors terrorism around the world, exudes anti-Semitism and hungers to finish what Hitler started. It is tragic to see what has happened in Iran and worse to observe the cowardice of the “International Community” as it simply shrugs its shoulders and leave those who seek change to the tender mercies of Ahmadinejad and his goon squad.

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47 thoughts on “REVERSE ENGINEERED CIVILISATION…

  1. There’s much to debate on the starter-for-10 (a term relating to a Britsih quiz program for under-graduates) but I’ll ask about the “sponsors terrorism around the world”. I’m currently reading the book by former mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky called By Way Of Deception – taken from Mossad’s motto and noting that deception is derived from the verb ‘to deceive’.

    He explained how Mossad had difficulties ensuring that groups from Sri Lanka being trained simultaneously in Israel didn’t meet up. This was because one group was Sinhalese (from the government which had recently bought Israeli PT boats) and the other was from the Tamil Tigers who were being trained in how to counter PT boat operations. Things went surreal when he revealed that the Indian Army also had a group being trained in counter-terrorism at the same time as the adversaries in the lucrative Sri Lankan clash were being trained.

  2. ” A once proud Nation has descended into a theocratic Islam tyranny which shows scant regard for the sanctity of human life. The world’s first Islamic Republic is the place which hangs gays, stones the allegedly adulterous to death, sponsors terrorism around the world, exudes anti-Semitism and hungers to finish what Hitler started. It is tragic to see what has happened in Iran and worse to observe the cowardice of the “International Community” as it simply shrugs its shoulders and leave those who seek change to the tender mercies of Ahmadinejad and his goon squad.”

    Which is why some ATWers should think twice before going on about Israel having the bomb…
    Islamic nations with atomic bombs are far more of a threat to world peace than Israel.
    Israel wants to survive. (some) Islamists seek world domination..
    and most Israelis aren’t anti gay 🙂

  3. “and noting that deception is derived from the verb ‘to deceive’.”
    Pretty profound that, Allan ..

  4. Agit – yes, it is profound. Tnbe reason why I’ve mentioned it is because one reads a lot on ATW about the religious instruction within islam to deceive but none at all about the same ethos in judaism or, more particularly, within the branch which uses the post-Christ talmud as its basis. In any case, there it is: deception is permitted by the koran and talmud.

    From the book ‘By Way of Deception’ I now read that Mossad uncovered the plot to drive an explosives-laden lorry into the main compound in Beirut where the US Army was based in 1983 on a peace mission to sort out the mess created by Israel. Naturally, as a close American ally, the Israelis gave the US all the information they had – just kidding 🙂 In reality, the Israelis gave the Americans what was little more than a weather forecast, and 241 US marines died in the explosion.

    Oh – and the Israelis were selling weapons to Iran before everybody else. On July 9th, 1981, an Argentinian plane flying from Israel laden with weaponry crashed with a Russian plane over Soviet territory. Now, this doesn’t get announced in the ‘mainstream’ media but the fact that Israel attempted to ban publication of this book suggests that most of it is true.

  5. Allan,
    My perception is that everybody (myself included)resorts to deception on a regular or an occasional basis.
    You continue to show your bias against Jews/Israelis/Ersatz Jews by seizing on the writings of Victor Ovstrovsky.
    Presumably you are prepared to overlook his origins -ersatz or otherwise- because his book supports your case?
    I would no more judge Israel by Victor Ovstrovsky than I would Germany by Hitler’s Mein Kamf.
    But what do I know.

  6. Agit – it depends entirely upon what the Jews – or those who claim to be Jews – actually say and do. Moreover, Ostrovsky is not conducting a critique on Israel: he is writing about Mossad and he considers it to be out-of-control.

    One exercise that Mossad conducted was a simulation of the murder of JFK. All attempts to produce the same outcome using Israel’s best marksmen failed so it was concluded that the official narrative is a tissue of lies.

    What is also noteworthy is that there are only about 35 – 40 trained agents in the field at any one time. Because there are so many collaborating jews in the countries of operation (mainly Europe), there is no need for specialists in the field. These collaborators (sayanim) provide all supporting services to the specialists (katsas). In the UK, there are about 5,000 who can be counted upon and they are found in all walks of life – car hire, media, commerce etc.

  7. Allan,
    It really doesn’t matter.
    The fact that you start off by saying,
    “it depends entirely upon what the Jews – or those who claim to be Jews – actually say and do.”
    after I had already stated “your bias against Jews/Israelis/Ersatz Jews” shows where your obsession lies.
    What WILL you do without the Jews to focus on? After all, according to you there are no real Jews left. So you are actually foaming at the mouth about Europeans masquerading as Jews??

  8. Agit – if I’m foaming at the mouth about Europeans masquerading as Jews, am I a Judaism-denier? Indeed, how can I then be a ‘nazi’ if I deny any racial difference between me and those who claim to be Jewish?

    I would like you to look at this clip and tell me what you think. Don’t be scared as there’s nothing ‘anti-semitic’ linked.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlKcH4dWFQc&feature=player_embedded

  9. “It’s a documented FACT that every nation that has allowed multiculturalism has fallen. This thesis is prevalent in History especially when it comes to Jews. They have been kicked out of almost every country in the world. Especially for their ritual child sacrificing. They are the vermin of the world & like a rat must be exterminated.”
    (excerpt from comments on Allan’s youtube clip…)

    This is the sick kind of stuff you follow Allan?
    The difference between you and me is that whilst I too don’t believe in multiculturalism, I respect other peoples even if I disagree with their faith or culture.
    Rightly or wrongly, I believe people should have their own space in which they practice their own values. The fact that people want to come and live in the West, and enjoy freedom, education, healthcare, employment opportunities and justice, tells me something:
    That they believe it’s better in the West than where they’ve come from.

  10. Agit – you are becoming as evasive as phantom, and that is not a compliment. The reason why that video was linked is because it is one of the few places where an interview with the Israeli, Barbara Spectre, is still available as it has been disappearing from the internet. The part below is what she said and you know that it is what I wish you to comment upon so, in the interests of cordial discussion, please do so.

    I think there’s a resurgence of antisemitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural, and I think we’re gonne be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies that they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the center of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode, and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role, and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.

    —Barbara Lerner Spectre, IBA-News, 2010.[6]

  11. Allan,
    you simply cannot -or should not – build a construct to support your thesis by building on the opinions/experience of TWO people who happen to support your belief that Jews -Martian or otherwise, are to blame for problems in the Middle East or anywhere else.
    ESPECIALLY when the two people you quote are Jewish/Smewish/Ertsatz or Kosher. It makes no sense.

  12. Allan – You are a simple anti-semite

    No – 80% of the jews in Israel are not semitic so that simple (by the limits of the intellect) quip has no basis. Moreover, given that I state quite clearly that the 80% of jews in Israel are little different to me in ethnicity, then it can’t be ‘racist’ either.

    Back to Agit. I asked you to comment upon the quotation from Barbara Spectre’s interview with the Israeli broadcasting Authority when she said that “I think there’s a resurgence of antisemitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural, and I think we’re gonne be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies that they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the center of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode, and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role, and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.”

    You refused to comment but some checking shows that the ‘charity’ Paedaeia which imports 3rd-worlders into Sweden is funded by Israel. Why would Israel want muslims in Sweden when there is a settled Jewish community there?

    I know it’s difficult for you to get away from the knee-jerk responses which used to silence critics but you now have to do some thinking. That alone would make you different to mahons: he doesn’t think at all.

  13. I didn’t refuse to comment, it wasn’t worth commenting on.
    Dialoguing with you rather reminds me of a very unpleasant episode I once went through where I got into conversation with a paedophile.
    He was telling me how much he hated himself for what he did, and being a bit thick, it took me a little while to realise that he was actually “getting off” by talking about it.
    Your obsession with this subject reminded me of that experience.
    I hope that tells you something.

  14. “Why would Israel want muslims in Sweden when there is a settled Jewish community there?”

    Why on earth would Israel of all places want a large Muslim population anywhere in Europe, its most important trading partner, soon to be voters and swaying political opinion there.

  15. Noel – that is a question to which I have no answer but the fact is that an (American-born) Israeli is seen explaining why Europe has to import millions of muslims “or Europe will not survive”. Seriously, what is that all about?

    Agit – that last post of yours is rather distasteful. It appears that anybody who confronts you diretly on who Jews are is no better than a paedophile. The reason why you didn’t comment is because you couldn’t comment: you had no good response. Dialoguing with me is unplesant because you simply cannot get awy with mere insults. It’s just not good enough.

  16. “Noel – that is a question to which I have no answer”

    Oh, don’t be coy. You put it in a rhetorical question, and you obviously think there is a plan here, and in the context that can – in your opinion – only be that Israel or Jews or whatever wants to destroy the original ethnic composition of European countries.

    But if that were the case – and I can’t imagine why it should be – then surely they would not try to do so by importing Muslims to Europe, who – if this conspiracy succeeded – would become the political force in Europe that Israel precisely does not want to have there.

  17. Interesting points Allan.

    The whole question of jewish identity in Europe is never discussed. But DNA evidence indicates that most Europen jews are genetically indistinguishable from European christians, which indicates that they are non-semitic descendants of converts rather than the jewish diaspora.

  18. Noel – I looked at that possibility but it makes no sense. For Israel to destroy the ethnicities of European countries would be of no benefit to Israel as a country, but somebody certainly does want to destroy the indigenous peoples of Europe and is using Jews as the apparent means to do so. Here’s Israel Shamir on mass immigration (apologies to the highly-sensitive Agit but Israel Shamir is a …..’revisionist’):

    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/immigration.htm

    – Under immigration, people fear their old neighbours as much as they fear the newcomers: “Diversity does not produce ‘bad race relations’ or ethnically-defined group hostility, our findings suggest. Rather, inhabitants of diverse communities tend to withdraw from collective life, to distrust their neighbours, regardless of the colour of their skin, to withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more, but have less faith that they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television.”

    This is exactly what the predators want: a broken, atomised, insecure population in a state of perpetual cold civil war with itself. They do not gather and discuss. They do not organize and plan. They huddle unhappily in front of the television. And who are the Masters of Discourse who determine the content of the television programming? They are the servants of the predators, of course.

    In order to defend their policy of destroying society by influx of strangers, they invented and propagated a new blood libel, that of ‘racism’. People who resist the imposition of mass immigration are deemed ‘racists’ and precluded from participation in the scripted television discourse. ‘Racism’ is a relatively new mortal sin invented by the Masters of Discourse to obscure predatory intentions. –

    As always and forever, the ‘predators’ are the money-changers and it should be noted that when Christ expelled them from the Temple, it was ordinary Jews who worshipped at the temple who were being ripped by the money-changers. They are with us today but, in a very clever but cynical move, have taken on the identity of Jews. Anyone who queries their activities (the Fed, ECB, Bank of England, Goldman Sachs etc) will have their controlled media challenging the ‘anti-semitism’ of the questioner.

    And here is Paideia:

    Ms. Spectre’s “education group” Paideia was originally financed by the Swedish Government (ca. $ 5 mil.) about half from the Wallenberg family, of bankers and industrial wealth. But a closer look into the matter of who finances Ms. Spectre’s undermining of Europe leads to more sources of money.

    We find that Paideia co-works and is financed by a four-year-old institute (Fund) located in Israel with the name EJF (European Jewish Fund). Furthermore, a look at their board-members (who call themselves activists, show the name of Mikhail Friedman, oligarch boss of the Russian ALFA-group of companies, a criminal conglomerate notorious for its drug-running- and money-laundering activities.

    The “European Jewish Fund” states on their homepage, that the organization is opposed to Jewish assimilation. In other words, multiculturalism is only for Europeans, not for everyone.

    Excerpt from EJF homepage:

    “About the Fund – The Fund is also focused on addressing such serious threats to Jewish life in Europe as assimilation, anti-Semitism and racism. Assimilation is without a doubt an existential threat to European Jewry that is becoming ever graver. The threat must be addressed in a serious manner with programs that are aimed at reconnecting people with Jewish life.”

    So putting those two org. partners together, as one entity, we find an organization doing everything they can to subvert the national identities of Europe, yet at the same time being active in striving to retain Jewish culture and national identity (i.e. Zionism). Talk about double standards, or as they say it in Swedish – dubbelmoral [‘double-morality].

    The interview declaration also raises the question, why the woman activist can’t see the direct connection between the multicultural society she strives for – with it’s mass importation of Muslims – and the increase of anti-semitism, which now in Sweden have become such a significant problem, that Jews are emigrating to Israel or other countries?

    Mrs. Spectre’s work also raises the question, if her provocative Zionist activities ruins other Jewish people’s image who don’t necessarily agree with her organizations views. –

    What a crock of shit. No wonder Agit cannot respond.

  19. Allan,

    ‘You refused to comment but some checking shows that the ‘charity’ Paedaeia which imports 3rd-worlders into Sweden is funded by Israel.”

    Your comment above isn’t suported by their website, either on the funding, nor that they ‘import third-worlders’, and that was with just a cursory check.

    From their site:

    “Paideia – The European Institute for Jewish Studies in Sweden is a non-denominational academic framework that was established in 2000 with funding from the Swedish government.
    Dedicated to the revival of Jewish culture in Europe, Paideia educates leaders for Europe – academicians, artists and community activists – towards fluency in the Jewish textual sources that have served as the wellsprings of Jewish civilization.
    In renewing interpretation of Jewish text, Paideia is reviving a European Jewish voice long silenced by Communism and post-Holocaust trauma – a voice that can contribute to a culturally rich and pluralistic Europe.”

    Re the Lerner Spectre clip, – it seem she is ail-informed as to the nature of the European attempt at muticulturism, as are our own political class.
    <i?"They are now going into a multicultural mode, and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role, and without that transformation, Europe will not survive."
    Admittedly there is a resurgence of anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe, but not for any specific multi-culti reason, – it seems to be based more on misplaced sympathy for the Palestinians and their supposed mistreatment by Israel, than any specific cultural differences.

    Jewish communities have been with us for millenia, and are quite easily integrated into western society, whereas our real concern with multi-culti is the influx of migrants from less civilised areas, who refuse, or have difficulty in integrating or even parially accepting, the European way of life. The fact that many are also of the Islamic faith doesn’t realy make such integration any easier, with their avowed intent to spread Islam into Europe.

    Somehow these latter day migrants convey a feeling more of being invaded than anything else.

  20. Peter –

    “Interesting points Allan. The whole question of jewish identity in Europe is never discussed …”

    Be reasonable. You’re supposed to call him a Nazi and liken him to a paedophile, not actually read what he says. What do you think this is, a place where people might actually examine the world?

  21. ‘You refused to comment but some checking shows that the ‘charity’ Paedaeia which imports 3rd-worlders into Sweden is funded by Israel.”

    Your comment above isn’t suported by their website, either on the funding, nor that they ‘import third-worlders’, and that was with just a cursory check.

    Ernest – do you really believe that an organisation like Paideia is going to let you know exactly what it does? That is the credulous naivety typical of phantom. Let’s have a closer look.

    Paideia co-works and is financed by a four-year-old institute (Fund) located in Israel with the name EJF (European Jewish Fund).

    http://www.europeanjewishfund.org/index.php?/content/about

    – The Fund is also focused on addressing such serious threats to Jewish life in Europe as assimilation, anti-Semitism and racism.

    Assimilation is without a doubt an existential threat to European Jewry that is becoming ever graver. The threat must be addressed in a serious manner with programmes that are aimed at reconnecting people with Jewish life. –

    So my opposition to non-jewish indigenous Britons assimilating with whatever comes in from the 3rd-world is ‘racist’ yet for Jews not to do likewise is noble? In fact, I agree with the latter but the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

    The main source of ‘anti-semitism’ is not white neo-nazis but is in fact the very muslims which zionists are working so hard to bring into Europe. This was stated in an investigative report (suppressed) by the EU a couple of years ago.

  22. No Pete – this is a place where Allan spurts out anti-semitism and racist comments and where you try to give him cover.

  23. “Agit – that last post of yours is rather distasteful. It appears that anybody who confronts you diretly on who Jews are is no better than a paedophile. The reason why you didn’t comment is because you couldn’t comment: you had no good response. Dialoguing with me is unplesant because you simply cannot get awy with mere insults. It’s just not good enough.”

    Allan,
    I actually said that the way you go on – and on- and on about this subject reminded me of a conversation I once had with a paedophile.
    The fact is that ever since I found ATW, you have said the same things over and over again.
    I take offence because
    a) I have lived and worked with Jews in Israel over a period of five years. I have
    Jewish in laws. I know them personally. I know that Israelis worry about their jobs
    their marriages, their children, the ME situation. In fact they do all the things
    we do. They have their nut jobs, their fanatics, their philosophers, their faith
    less and their devout.

    b) There ARE Jews who can trace their ancestry back through history. Some live in the
    northern Galilean town of Sfat, which was never sacked by the Romans. There are
    Jews who live in Spain and Italy in can trace their families back over many
    hundreds of years. Many Jewish people can do this Allan.

    What your bigotry won’t allow you to recognise, is that over 2000 years of exile, Jewish people married people from the populations they found themselves in. Jewishness comes through the mother, not the father.
    Over time Jewish communities developed different traditions and forms of worship based on the same holy books. Very similar in fact, to what has happened in Christianity, Islam and other major religions.

    The European Jews who were rounded up and taken to the concentration camps were no different for being white, than Christians or Muslims for being black, Red , Brown or Yellow.
    Again,your stoopidity and bias won’t allow you to acknowledge that if they were “fake Jews” why was Hitler so ready to exterminate them?

    So all your conspiracy theories and mysterious websites mean absolutely nothing to me. Your theories about a Jewish conspiracy to fill Europe/USA with Muslims makes absolutely no sense, and all your guff is on a level with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
    That you keep on with your little obsessions can only be because like other bigots and anti semites, you believe that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.
    I defy anyone here on ATW to side with Allan and say that what I have written above is not true.

  24. “Jewishness comes through the mother, ”

    Agit8ed, I agree with you in general in your comment.

    But what is this thing that comes through the mother, in your view? It obviously isn’t a race or ethnic feature, nor a religion (there are millions of “non-believing Jews”), nor even a cultural pattern of behaviour or tradition.

    Do you not think it’s strange that something can be so important to so many people when nobody knows what it is, and that it’s at least very foolhardy for a modern state to make something so vague the sine qua non of citizenship?

    My view is that Jewishness is something that can be defined only negatively – a person becomes a Jew not through any characteristics or beliefs or behaviour on his or her part, but only because of the way he is treated by others.
    Someone said, I can’t remember who, “It was the anti-Semite that made me a Jew”. A very tragic definition, but one I think that makes more sense than the others, which make little sense at all.

    I also think that some of the major problems facing Israel, and one of the causes of the present mess it’s already in, stem from this confusion.
    Come on, some ambitious peasant from Kazakhstan wanting to get out had a grannie who used to go to the Temple, so he now becomes a Jew and can go to Israel and get certain rights that are denied the people who’ve been living there for thousands of years?

    That’s a farce and can’t end well.

  25. Allan,

    I definitely think you are becoming overly paranoid in your fear of the aims and intentions of world Jewry.

    There are similar cultural colleges and organisations from all of the major religions in any country where there are sufficient numbers interested to warrant the expense. Wherever immigrants settle they all seem to have their ‘national’ groups and clubs etc. whether just plain patriotic or religious in purpose.

    In Florida there are a number of ‘Union Jack’ clubs which attempts to promote ‘the best of British’. Personally I find such ‘clubs’ to be rather bigoted and jingoistic and I do my best to avoid them, but they do seemingly help the homesick.

    – The Fund is also focused on addressing such serious threats to Jewish life in Europe as assimilation, anti-Semitism and racism.

    That could well be rewritten as :-

    – The Fund is also focused on addressing such serious threats to Jewish Christian life in Europe as assimilation, anti-Semitism Christianity and racism.

    ‘Assimilation is without a doubt an existential threat to European Jewry that is becoming ever graver. The threat must be addressed in a serious manner with programmes that are aimed at reconnecting people with Jewish life.

    Could likewise be rewritten:-

    ‘Assimilation is without a doubt an existential threat to European Jewry Christianity that is becoming ever graver. The threat must be addressed in a serious manner with programmes that are aimed at reconnecting people with Jewish Christian life. (culture)

    Certainly assimilation is a problem, due to the large numbers involved, and their insistance on ignoring indigenous laws. The demand that sharia law be implemented, – to be applied to migrants, – is surely a clear sinal of their lack of intention to integrate.

    The concern is not just that of the Jewish fraternity, – or should that be ‘maternity’? – but also for those of us of the Christian fraternity, who do have no desire to live a ‘third world’ ghettoe style existence.

  26. Noel,

    That’s a farce and can’t end well. – it certaintly is the way you describe it.

    My view is that Jewishness is something that can be defined only negatively – a person becomes a Jew not through any characteristics or beliefs or behaviour on his or her part, but only because of the way he is treated by others.

    You coud say as much about any religion. Catholics have an affinity for Latin, Jews for Hebrew, all as part of tradition, – which, as we know, is a really just a pattern for long term behaviour.

    Isn’t religion a system of belief, or is that just a Christian thing?

    How could anyone be so sure that a person was Jewish as to victimise them – don’t say ‘The large nose and dark complexion’, it’s the way they look! – that applies as much to Arabs and many others in the ME.

    That Jewry has been in Europe for so very long and become so integrated, I doubt you could tell a Jew from a Gentile, just by their looks, and the reverse applies, of course.

    We might say the same re the Irish – ‘he must be Irish! – you can tell by the amount of stout he drinks!’ – absolute nonsense, of course, and just as specious as your remark.

  27. “Catholics have an affinity for Latin, Jews for Hebrew, all as part of tradition, – which, as we know, is a really just a pattern for long term behaviour”

    Ernest, wrong, because there are Jews – in fact, most Jews – who have no link to Hebrew, nor to any tradition or behaviour. That was the point.

    “I doubt you could tell a Jew from a Gentile, just by their looks, and the reverse applies, of course.”

    I also meant that.

    “absolute nonsense, of course, and just as specious as your remark.”

    Let’s face it, Ernest, you clearly didn’t begin to understand my remark, which was that there are no identifying features.

  28. Noel,
    Good points, and ones which perhaps require the wearing of various hats!

    With my Christian faith hat on:
    As far as I am aware the understanding is that the Old Testament or Hebrew Tenach includes the story of creation, the fall; whereby man (as in Adam) disobeyed God and opened the way for evil to come into the world, the choosing of Abraham, the formation of the Jewish/Hebrew race, the codification of the covenant between God and the Jews and the laws He gave that would mark them out as being His people, the prophets raised up at various times in their history who served to outline why what was happening to them, and how they could get out of their predicament -usually heartfelt national repentance. Then there were the books of religious poetry(the Psalms, Song of Solomon), and wisdom (Proverbs). Plus some Jewish heros/heroines Jonah, Obadiah, Ruth etc etc..

    Now I am not asking you to believe it all, only to recognise that there are different sections, regarded as consisting of God’s word and man’s; eg Song of Solomon, Proverbs and David’s Psalms.
    Main point is that in the Old Testament God likens himself to a “husband” to Israel, and that He will stick with them through thick and thin, and even if they desert Him, He will never give up on them. Punish them for their disobedience, yes. Forgive them yes.
    SO we Christians believe that part of God’s promise to the Jews was that eventually He would send them a saviour, Messiah; who would be the second Adam, but who would remain faithful and obedient to God unlike the first Adam. This second Adam would then allow himself to die for the sins of all the Jews… but also the non Jews (Gentiles)
    This act would allow all who accepted it to be reconciled to God, and to be renewed in their inner man by the Holy Spirit.

    That the Jews rejected Messiah led to the Jews being driven out of Israel by the hands of the Romans, and scattered all over the world.
    Eventually culminating in the Holocaust, which acted as a catalyst to fully restore the nation of Israel.
    Many Jews lost their faith in God because of the Holocaust, and many like us Gentiles stopped believing for philosophic reasons. Evolution, etc..

    So the BIG-G-G-G-G question is this:
    Because some Jews lost their faith (for whatever reason), does that mean that ALL Jews are no longer Jews?
    Obviously not.
    Are the Jews a race?
    No.
    They now come from all over the world.
    They are both a religion, and a culture.
    Perhaps most importantly, they are God’s chosen people, and God’s purposes will be worked out through them.

    Christian people -especially the Roman Catholic Church- has tended to major on the fact that the Jews agreed to Christ being crucified. So they have historically instigated pogroms or persecutions on the Jewish people. Even some Protestants have been anti Jewish.
    However, it seems top me miraculous that the the Jews still exist, despite all the attempts that have been made through the ages to exterminate or assimilate them.
    That after two THOUSAND years, they are back in the land they started from, and they are a nation once more.
    However you cut it Noel, however it has come to pass, it is a fact.
    So the thing which comes through the mother is being born into the world as a Jew, with circumcision being one of the outward signs of that Jewishness, and either a religious or non religious upbringing making them into either observant or non observant Jews.
    But definitely different; and somehow many – most Jews, have that sense of being different.
    “It was the anti-Semite that made me a Jew”.
    There are some Christians who believe that the Jews are like a living illustration of God’s holiness and faithfulness to fallen man, and that is why some people particularly hate Jews; because they hate the idea of a personal, Holy and forgiving God who requires our obedience because he knows that our greatest happiness lies reconciliation with Him, and the Jews are a living reminder of that.

    Sorry it’s been such a long-winded post..

  29. Noel,

    I doubt you could tell a Jew from a Gentile, just by their looks, and the reverse applies, of course.’

    So does that relate to your remark that:- ‘that Jewishness is something that can be defined only negatively – a person becomes a Jew not through any characteristics or beliefs or behaviour on his or her part, but only because of the way he is treated by others.’

    Are you saying that Jewishness is just in the eye of the beholder? – of course you are! and thereby any ‘negativity’ is in that person.

    All sounds quite racist to me!

  30. “and thereby any “negativity’ is in that person.
    All sounds quite racist to me!”

    Of course it does, because you can neither think, read nor even understand the word “negatively”.

  31. Surely if you think negatively of a person or a situation, then surely that negativity will likely have a negaive effect on the person or situation.

    Amusing to see that in your efforts to denigrate the Jewish people you unconciously adopt the racist line of thinking.

  32. “Surely if you think negatively of a person or a situation, then surely that negativity will likely have a negaive effect on the person or situation.”

    LOL. Ernest, as I said, you don’t understand the meaning of “negatively” in the sense of a definition. Maybe you’ll be able to find someone near where you live to explain it to you.
    I’d say anyone over 12 yrs old should do.
    At all events, if I were you, I’d go somewhere else to waste my time instead of making a fool of myself here.

  33. Noel,

    I think I’ll leave you with your deepseated personality problems. I’m sure you will work them out when you grow up…

  34. “I think I’ll leave you with your deepseated personality problems.”

    LOL, I presume that means you did go and find out what “negatively” means after all.

    Ernst, I hope you don’t now expect me to apologise for you calling me a racist, the same way as you were whinging to others for days afterwards that I didn’t apologise for your claim that I make ageist remarks after I’d proven that I don’t.

  35. Are the Jews a race?
    No.
    They now come from all over the world.
    They are both a religion, and a culture.
    Perhaps most importantly, they are God’s chosen people, and God’s purposes will be worked out through them

    So, Agit – if the jews are God’s chosen people, what does it mean for the rest of humanity, the goyim, when they ascend to power? That is pure, unadulterated supremacism.

  36. “That is pure, unadulterated supremacism.”

    No, that’s what Hitler was into.

    If you don’t like it you’ll have to take it up with the Boss… 🙂

  37. Agit – do you have a policy of not answering straight-forward questions from anybody whom you liken to a paedophile?

    Dialoguing with you rather reminds me of a very unpleasant episode I once went through where I got into conversation with a paedophile.
    He was telling me how much he hated himself for what he did, and being a bit thick, it took me a little while to realise that he was actually “getting off” by talking about it.
    Your obsession with this subject reminded me of that experience.
    I hope that tells you something.

    It tells me something for sure: it tells me that you are really are a bit of a sicko.

    Once again – if the jews are God’s chosen people, what does it mean for how they perceive the rest of humanity?

  38. Allan,
    I did NOT liken YOU to a paedophile!
    It is the weirdness with which like a terrier with a rat, you cannot let go of your obsession with the Jewish people. You twist what people say, you illogically quote (ersatz) Jewish people who have a negative take on other (ersatz) Jews or on an artificially reconstituted Israel.

    As for
    ” if the jews are God’s chosen people, what does it mean for how they perceive the rest of humanity?

    Leave a Reply

    Logged in as Agit8ed. Logout »

    Agit8ed, on April 24th, 2012 at 8:09 am Said:

    Allan,
    I did NOT liken YOU to a paedophile!

    It is the weirdness with which like a terrier with a rat, you cannot let go of your obsession with the Jewish people. You twist what people say, you illogically quote (ersatz) Jewish people who have a negative take on other (ersatz) Jews, or on an artificially reconstituted Israel.
    You show no care for the suffering of people -real people. They are only statistics to you in your weird little obsession.

    As for,
    “if the Jews are God’s chosen people, what does it mean for how they perceive the rest of humanity?”

    Well, let’s think about that. Maybe their perception has been influenced by

    http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Belsen01.jpg
    http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG3.jpg
    http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/MedExp03.jpg

    then there is the church’s contribution to the Jewish perception of “the rest of humanity.”

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSpogroms.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kielcepogrom.jpg
    http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/

    but maybe these guys could have explained it better
    ..had they survived.

    http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks3/the-final-solution/auschwitz-birkenau/selection/

  39. Allan,

    ‘if the (J)jews are God’s chosen people, what does it mean for the rest of humanity, the goyim, when they ascend to power? That is pure, unadulterated supremacism.”

    Are you not making the assumption that they have been ‘chosen’ for some special purpose, if history is anything to go by, they seem to be the ones chosen to bear the brunt of global persecution and general animosity, even in the land of their origin, and yet they still survive.

    And just where is ‘the ascent to power’ mentioned? surely it should read ‘if they ascend’, not ‘when’.

    If that is so, then being a ‘chosen one’, might not be quite the beanfeast you assume.

  40. Exactly so Ernest.
    Being chosen has not exactly been a bundle of laughs. As Topol says in Fiddler on the Roof,
    “Couldn’t You choose someone else occasionally?”

  41. I could convert to judaism tomorrow, and then I’d be ‘chosen’ too. Then I could consider everybody else to be mere goyim. Besides, the assumption that Jews have been chosen is not my assumption: it’s theirs.

    Of course, by converting, I’d be a Jew but also a white European. But, if anybody challenged me, that would be ‘racist’ and ‘anti-semitic’. These are very useful cards to play and at the moment, I don’t have them.

    I’m not sure that jews face persecution in their land of origin which is claimed as present-day Israel. On the other hand, those who lived there before the arrival of Europeans en masse certainly are persecuted. Netanyahu claimed that jews had the land 4,000 years ago which could well be true – but there is no genealogical link between 4 out of 5 jews in Israel and the jews who are indigenous to the middle east. Come to think of it, there is no genealogical link between David Vance and the first Christians of the Holy Land but Christians in Europe would have as good a claim to trans-Jordan as the European jews.

  42. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww-nnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
    So booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng Allan.
    Go wallpaper your cell.

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