55 2 mins 10 yrs

It’s really all so simple. Socialised healthcare is logically going to reach a point where it cannot be funded from our taxes – but the European Commission is intent to speed that day up!

Briatin was ordered by EU chiefs last night to give millions of foreigners full access to NHS healthcare. In a move that could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds, the Brussels-based European Commission insisted that immigrants from within the EU are entitled to stay and use the service indefinitely even if they do not pay UK taxes. The Eurocrats ordered the British Government to scrap current rules stating that jobless EU citizens cannot stay in the country for more than three months unless they have their own health insurance. “This breaches EU law,” said a statement from the commission. It insisted that “entitlement to treatment by the UK public healthcare scheme” was sufficient to allow migrants without health insurance to stay indefinitely. The Government was given just two months to comply or face being dragged to the EU’s European Court of Justice and hit with a swingeing fine.

So, you come to the UK and from you scrounge off Welfare and you have full entitlement to all NHS facilities. That is a recipe for NHS bankruptcy and yet it is precisely what the European Commission demands. We keep getting into this position and there is but one solution – we must leave the EU and take care of our own sick.  Once upon a time, under Labour, the UK was referred to as “the sick man of Europe”. These days we are being turned into the Sick Care centre of Europe. Who will lead us out of this trauma?

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  1. Completely agree both with your analysis and with your solution although even then I feel that health care costs will eventually outstrip the money available to pay for them. But, as you say, we seem to be turning into a global service to which anybody has full access provided they can reach our shores. This stems from our general attitude to health care which is that a persons need is the prime consideration even more so than the resources necessary to meet that need. How do we solve this problem? I do not know although saying goodbye to the EU seems a promising start.

  2. “In a move that could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds, the Brussels-based European Commission insisted that immigrants from within the EU are entitled to stay and use the service indefinitely even if they do not pay UK taxes.”

    Let’s get real here! WHO are the EU leadership bent on destroying? WHO has refused to become a full member of the EU, and WHO (along with the USA and other nations) came to the rescue of Europe in WW2??
    Could WHO be me and you?!
    The UK electorate has never been enthusiastic about membership of the EU.

    (UK politicians of course are in a different category: greed, ambition and self regard are universal qualities.. 😉 )
    Can it really be true that our British politicians are actually going to “fight this decision?!”
    Real true blue patriotic British politicians ,would have simply stuck up two fingers, and said,
    or even,
    De Gaulle would have.
    Adenauer would have.
    Churchill certainly would have!

  3. They really are taking the proverbial, – and our ‘boys’ are just too stupid, dumb or numb to realise it and to say ‘no!’.

    As citizens, just what do we have to show for generations of good intentions, good works and just ‘in general’ trying to be ‘the good guys’, – nothing!, that any scrounging ne’er-do-well can come and make use of, and enjoy with the minimum of effort.

    If that wasn’t enough, the increased in-flow of migrants is rapidily reducing much of this country to third world levels.

    Infrastructure is left in disrepair, and previously excellent facilities and services are being closed or neglected. Just today we are told that libraries etc. must close to enable elder care services to be maintained, – not that they have been much good for a very long time.

    Meanwhile, we have the Jubilee and the Olympics to enjoy, – all at vast expense , of course, – but ‘all so worthwhile, don’tcha know! Old Boy!’…

  4. The Brits and other countries are beginning to see the “European Union” for the stinking, putrid septic tank it always has been.

    Too bad it’s like the Sicilian La Cosa Nostra. Once in……never out!

  5. It’s a little wrose than that:

    Brussels is threatening to sue the UK unless it removes illegal curbs on the rights of EU citizens to use the National Health Service and bring their non-EU family members to Britain without a visa.”

    Bear in mind that the EU which imposed the Working Time Directive on doctors a couple of years ago too. We’ll end up importing even more quacks from Africa.

    Beware ministers vowing to “stand up for Britain” and “fight the EU”. Don’t believe a word of it. This is a 100%, pro-EU government packed out with traitors. They’ll make the usual noises, they’ll chuck a few rhetorical bones to brainless Tory voters and then get on with implementing the orders from our real government in Brussels.

  6. Ernest,
    Our current crop of politicians have imbibed the “milk of embarrassment” at their mothers’ breast.
    They feel they must apologise for liberating Europe from the “nasty Nazis”, despite the blood spilt and sacrifices made by British men and women during that time.

    Although without American might the war would not have been won, it was this small group of Islands off mainland Europe which for a time, kept the flames of decency and morality alive for many many Europeans.
    I am so proud of my ancestors who stood for England and Great Britain over the centuries.
    Sadly these political boys have lost sight of that history, and allowed themselves to be sucked into a pretentious, smug and pompous European Union, some of whom resent us and what we achieved..

  7. Agit8ed,

    Likewise, I am proud of our ancestry, and have even played a small part in it, all of which only serves to heighten the feeling of total betrayal by our political class.

    If anything such EU diktats will only strengthen the resolve of indigenes to extract as much from the welfare state, before the migrants grab it all and the whole charade goes belly up.

    I have been self-employed for most of my working life, – it is almost a religious thing, – and yet I would be very uncertain about starting any new enterprise in the present economic and political environment.

    Quite apart from the usual business related commitments, a new enterprise would also be taking on the immense forward burden of government debt commitment, which will ensure that taxes will be at high levels for the foreseeable future and with the real risk of a major currency devaluation or even failure.

    The burden that devaluing the currency places on a commercial enterprise often goes unconsidered when calculating the annual profit and loss. That devaluation is our governments favourite way of repaying debt, and given the size of our current debt of over £1 trillion, we are assured of at least a 5% devaluation each year, and this wihout any further burden the EU may foist on us.

    E.g. – a £1 in 1971 is today worth but 9p…

    Just what incentive is there now, for the budding entrepreneur when the definition of ‘hard work’ has been so distorted as to become ‘slavery’ by any other name?…

  8. “st what incentive is there now, for the budding entrepreneur when the definition of ‘hard work’ has been so distorted as to become ‘slavery’ by any other name?…”

    It is slavery in the sense that hard work and ambition are now viewed by many as “anti-social” and exploitative.” That those in gainful employment are subsidising the lifestyle of an ever growing benefits culture army, who defiantly march under the twin banners of,
    “NO SHAME!” and
    Because nearly all of our politicians have no real experience in the discipline and demands of real work, they pay lip service to the concept, but there is no real conviction. Truth be told, if there was enough tax money coming in, we would see a dramatic expansion of the public sector, not the private sector!

  9. The UK ( or even just England and Wales if Scotland opts out ) is big enough and prosperous enough to do just fine outside the EU.

    I’d give the EU five years’ notice and start unraveling the thing next January 1.

  10. Legal immigrants should have a five year waiting period before getting any benefit. Their own country can take care of the waiting period if they feel like it.

    Intruders in the country illegally should get zip.

    This isn’t close to being a difficult problem to solve if good faith enters into it.

  11. Healthcare is a right and should be free at the point of delivery, everywhere. Your colour or gender or what bit of soil you happened to be born on should be irrelevant.

  12. You will destroy your economy with that approach.

    No one is talking about color or gender.

    You will have your hands full taking care of your own citizens. If countries like the UK or small countries like Ireland act as a magnet for very large numbers who want free and very expensive stuff ( and health care will always be expensive ) you will destroy your economy sooner rather than later.

  13. Health care is not a right.

    For someone to receive it someone else must pay for it, and someone must give up their time to administer it. To say that health care is a right, therefore, is to say that someone has a right over the wealth and time of other people. It implies, in effect, that the person wanting health care has a proprietory right over the body and labour of other people, no different from slavery.

    Only a commie can believe such drivel.

  14. Health care is not a right – true.

    It is very good public policy though to provide it for your own citizens. It benefits the entire society in countless ways.

  15. What utter nonsense.

    Certainly basic healthcare should be available, as should emergency care. There is no reason why certain accidents, such as those caused by drunk driving, should not be subject to a charge for the perpetrator, likewise for treating the damage of drunken or drug induced brawls.

    The sophisticated long term treatments that are now available, for the self inflicted ailments such as obesity, smoking and cosmetic boob jobs should also be paid for.

    As for non-contributors treatment,if there is no reciprocation from their home country, then only the most basic of treatment should be given. The AIDS inspired immigration is a case in point, – we give plenty of financial aid to African countries, where most of of such patients stem from.

    If they think that medical treatment is so important, why don’t the spend some of that financial aid on their own countrymen, and perhaps, at the same time, employ some of their countrymen whom we have trained here, – how honest it would be, if, after training they went back home and practised in their own communities.

    National Health Insurance should provide for good basic care for those that have subscribed to it, if you want the more esoteric stuff, then buy a private insurance to cover it. That’s how it should be until such time as ‘free health care’ is available globally for all, and like all socialist ‘nirvana dreams’, ain’t ever gonna happen.

  16. Ernest is very substantially correct here.

    You can make for a workable system with such a policy.

  17. Petr Tarasov, on April 27th, 2012 at 1:07 pm Said:
    Healthcare is a right and should be free at the point of delivery, everywhere. Your colour or gender or what bit of soil you happened to be born on should be irrelevant.

    Healthcare is not free in Slovakia, or the Czech republic, and we are full members of the European union, any non Slovak or Czech, resident or otherwise, have to pay a higher rate.

  18. If you want to break the NHS model, this is the way to do it. Unless you have an unlimited supply of money trees with £100 notes for leaves that you can harvest.

  19. “Healthcare is a right and should be free at the point of delivery, everywhere. Your colour or gender or what bit of soil you happened to be born on should be irrelevant.”

    A noble sentiment Peter Tarasov,

    I do hope you’re giving all of your disposable income towards this compassionate ideal? 🙂

    Let us ask ourselves a few questions..
    As Ernest says, “HOW do y’think this is all paid for?”
    and WHY do you think so many people want to come here?

    I am extremely grateful for the NHS. If I had to pay for my medication privately, I’d have no money left.
    I also agree with Ernest that self inflicted injuries such as drunkenness, drug abuse and fatness due to poor diet, should be paid for by the individual. It is an abuse of the system.
    Like wise non life threatening surgery:
    gender changes
    boob jobs
    nose enhancements/reductions etc. etc.
    All these ops should require at least a substantial contribution from the patient.

    I don’t know if you are actually a left leaning utopian, but the old socialist slogan of
    “from each according to his ability to each according to his need
    does it for me.. 🙂

  20. An adult conversation needs to be had on stuff like this.

    And utopian ” Communists ” and ” Libertarians ” don’t bring anything of value to such talks. They’d best stick to their lovely Marxist or Austrian texts.

  21. I know that 100% of the advanced countries have national health systems and that some of them work well. The feckless Brits and Yanks can learn from the likes of the Swiss or the Canadians.

    A rich country can easily take care of its own people.

    The more one thinks about it the utopian and impractical solutions of Communists ( Its all free! Cover everyone for everything! ) and Libertarians ( Do nothing! The market is never wrong! Health care will trickle down! ) are equally useless.

    But no system can work for long if illegals, intruders, and any freeloaders are covered.

    Take care of your own people, Brits – if you do that successfully, that’s all you should be expected to do by any reasonable person.

  22. To expect a single service to satisfy the needs of such a diverse entity as a nation, just has to be the ultimate fantasy.

    One size, or quality of treatment just will not fit all.

  23. Phantom –

    There’s hardly a State health rationing system anywhere which isn’t bust and falling apart.

    Food is as important as health car. In fact it’s more important. Yet we’re told that it’s health care which is “too important to be left to the private sector”. In that case it’s even more imperative that food “can’t be left to the private sector”.

    So why don’t people like you make that intellectually honest argument?

    Is it because every store and supermarket is packed floor to ceiling with wonderful food from all over the world?

    That the capitalism and the private food industry, in bringing us abundance at ever cheaper prices, is responsible for one of the mankind’s greatest achievements?

    I think so. You simply cannpt make that argument because your fridge and larder betrays you. Yet as soon as the subject turns to health care you dismess the methods which brought us our food miracle and argue in favour of the methods which starved hundreds of millions to death in famines from Ukraine to Ethiopia to China.

  24. You can feed any adult human for $100 a month or whatever if you shop carefully.

    You can’t do a Coronary Bypass for $100 a month.

    Nice try.

  25. Cancer care costs money too. A lot more than food costs. Even if the cost was cut in half by ” less regulation ” ( ha ) it would still cost a lot more than a loaf of bread and some vegetables.

    These drugs and machines don’t invent themselves, someone must pay for them. D doctors and nurses for a very sick patient costs money too.


  26. That’s my point!!

    If government left the way clear for properly capitalistic and private health care, all of those expensive operations and treatments will plummet in price!

    Give me strength …

  27. They’d still cost a lot, grasshopper. Which is the point.

    Costs can be reduced further by a reform the US tort liability system, which adds huge costs in many ways too.

  28. Phantom –

    You’re not that stupid. I know you’re not that stupid. This is a very simple point which you can grasp.

    Let me tell you what you can have and what want instead.

    How much is a Florida orange in New York? 30 cents? 40 cents? This is the magic, the miracle of capitalism and free-ish markets. You can buy a tasty, plump, nutricious orange hundreds of miles from where it was grown, for cents.

    And when you do buy that orange, you are actually trading with the hundreds of thousands of people who played some small part in bringing that orange to you. From farmers to agriculturalists, to people who design and make machinery and roads and planes, there are hundreds of thousands of people who have contributed in some way to bringing you that orange, and you trade with them by buying that produce for a few cents, produce which is always replenished.

    Is it witchcraft? A miracle? Actually, it’s capitalism and free-ish markets!

    And what do you want instead? You want the equivalent of a State food doctor who you can see to ask for an orange

    If he thinks you should have an orange he’ll then tell you that it’ll take a few months and cost $50.

    You then want to walk out grateful for what government provides, and relieved that something so important as food “is not left to the private sector”.

  29. Pete

    Health care is still going to cost a lot. Only a liar will tell you that cancer care will cost as much as a few oranges.

    There is room for much beneficial competition in health care, plus the removal of the dead weight of the liability system – which you have never once mentioned – and it should all be on the table.

  30. Phantom –

    How do you know what cancer treatment would cost in a free market?

    Exotic spices were once affordable only by a very few. You can now buy any spice, very cheaply, everywhere. Why? Because free markets reward production and production is the very point of free market economics.

    You have and continue to argue for a system of health rationing which impedes and incentivises against production, so of course treatments are expensive!

    In another world, the one with your preferred food doctor model, I’m telling you that Florida oranges would cost 30 or 40 cents in a free-ish food market, and you’re saying: “Well duh, no they won’t. They’ll always be expensive.”

  31. Phantom,
    The Swiss do have a very good system. I greatly enjoyed spending a year there ’72/’73

    and Bernstrasse, Berne.
    In fact I greatly admire their system of democracy. Did you know Phantom, pre EU the Swiss used to invite guest workers from (mainly) Italy? They could stay for a year and then had to return home, then re-apply for another year.
    An eminently sensible arrangement!

  32. You are very atrocious student.

    I have a California navel orange on my desk.

    The guy who picked it didn’t go to medical school.

    Do the math.

  33. Agit8ed

    I have friends and business colleagues from Switzerland, who live there as well as here.

    They don’t have one bad word to say about their own public/private system.

    They’re a bit horrified of the US system.

  34. For goodness sake!

    I’ve explained to you that hundreds of thousands of people brought you that orange. It could be millions, and you have it for a few cents!

    I’ve told you before that the reason why medical school is so expensive is because it’s cartelised, a virtual closed and access is tightly restricted to constrict supply!

    For crying out loud, I’m beginning to think you’re a government troll, employed to sit on blogs all day typing bullshit!

    And I didn’t claim that cancer treatment would cost as little as an orange, I said that in a free market the costs would plummet. I said that because it’s the obvious truth.

    Come on, think man.

  35. Yes. In a ” free market ” medical school would cost $1000 a year. Free of regulation, and the need for licensing, why we could all open our own medical schools next week, and how fun would that be.

    Health care would be too cheap to meter and no one would exclude pre existing conditions. Got it.

  36. Phantom,
    On this particular issue I think Pete has a point.
    Were government’s role to simply ensure all surgeons and doctors were trained to a standard, prices would come down. As it is, our NHS is a cartel.

  37. He probably doesn’t think that doctors should be required to have medical licenses. Its government intrusion.

    Every quack his own heart surgeon!

  38. He has also opposed FDA testing of new drugs. Every quack his own pharma lab! That’s one way to get costs down. Of course all the patients will be dead, but so what.

    This ain’t my first rodeo.

  39. Phantom –

    And with that, you reveal how little you understand.

    Yes, I oppose the FDA’s very existence. It’s a corrupt organisation, captured and controlled by the big players to kill off the competition.

    What you never understand is that organisations like the FDA don’t fill a vacuum and don’t exist to provide something that would otherwise not exist.

    If the FDA were abolished it would immediately be replaced by competing standards organisations. Organisations like the British Standards Institution, a private provider of standards in many different industries and an incomparably superior operator compared to bureaucratic monstrosities such as the FDA.

    This is the second time I’ve had cause to make this very point to you. Please do pay attention.

  40. Pete

    The one fundamental difference between food and healthcare is that we all need roughly the same amount of food each day to survive Rich man poor man beggar man thief. The same does not apply to healthcare. 1 person can go for years never needing to spend a penny on care, another may well need thousands of pounds of healthcare every month just to survive and others may have periods where they have an intensive problem that requires a huge amount of immediate short term expenditure. The free market can work in food because it is always a known planned commodity fairly easy to ensure consistency of supply and affordability. It cannot work as efficiently and succesfully with health care.

  41. Colm –

    It’s a difference, though I wouldn’t describe it as a fundamental difference.

    Yes, one person could go for years without spending anything on health care, but he’d be foregoing health and dental check ups in that case. He’d be much more likely to have those check ups if they were less costly. On that point, I heard on the radio this morning that many people are, indeed, skipping dental visits because of the cost.

    Well done government.

    But we can use fuel as an analogy if you like. Undoubtedly some people haven’t bought any for years, but if they suddently needed to then there it is, gushing from the pumps.

    At which point in steps omnipresent government yet again …

  42. -British Standards Institution –

    A fine group.

    Do they oversee clinical trials? If they don’t are we bullshitting again?

    What if a quack doesn’t want to get certification from anyone? And set up his own cancer drug operation out of his basement? You cool with that?

  43. Pete has great faith in the market and who is to say he is not right. Here in the UK the market does not get a look in because the one dirty word which is evident and feared is COMPETITION and the market brings with it competition. I do not know why competition is so feared, basically by the socialists, because competition brings with it new ways of doing things and in many ways competition brings improvement to the health care system. Lack of competition or lack of new thinking is harmful and is usually overseen by a bureaucracy. Everything must be done the same way and should bring about the same result. But of course it cannot because everything is different. What is right for a smallish rural hospital may be completely wrong for large city hospitals which provide regionsl services but both are needed. Recently there has been policy introduced to concentrate services in the large city hospitals and to reduce services around the periphery. This policy is being resisted by the populations resident in that periphery. Hospital Boards are resistant (they claim financial reasons) to go along with the peoples wishes.
    So, in my opinion we need change and we need it badly but change cannot readily come with a bueaucratic organisation structure. We need to break up the one that is failing us and try something new. You will probably guess my preferred direction.

  44. There are millions of people in the UK insured by private insurance.

    Private insurance is alive and well in the UK

    There are some countries that don’t allow private insurance or care, but the UK is not one of them.


  45. All your fancy guys in the City are covered by private insurance there.

    They’re not into the NHS lifestyle, old chap.

  46. Competition is a great stimulus, not just to new developements, but also to encouraging shoppers.

    There isn’t a decent shopping centre where similar shops aren’t grouped together in a smallish area, and all do well out of it. Saville Row, for high class tailoring, is a good example, as with Hatton Garden for designer jewellery, and many other places have similar reputations for being centres fo specific items.

    I remember that Athens used to have ‘lighting district’, every other shop sold light fittings and all that went with them. I’m sure most shopping centres worthy of the name are similarly endowowed with ‘specialist areas’.

  47. Colm,
    “It cannot work as efficiently and succesfully with health care.”
    I am not an anti statist, but if we consider any large commercial organisation competing for a share of a known and constant market, then why couldn’t medical companies be successful?
    I think the role of the should be to oversee and maintain standards rather than production.
    Consider for example the incredible waste that takes place in the MOD, or the NHS, or government computing projects, or indeed ANYTHING which is funded by the taxpayer, but over which the taxpayer has no control.
    In effect Government has a licence to waste money, and there’s not a damn thing you or I can do about it.
    Introduce more competition, restrict the government’s role to standards, and I think you would have a much more efficient and innovative service.

  48. Most here would strongly support competition in this area.

    The problem is that quality medicine, like a Seville Row suit, costs more than a bag of oranges.

  49. The bureaucrats skill – if any – lies in oversight, rather than delivery of goods or service.

    They have no competition and no experience of working to a time table, and have nothing with which to compare their performance with, as bureaucracy is solely a government thing.

    Plus they work to a budgetary system that almosts insists that whatever, and how overly generous a budget may be, this years budget must be spent, come what may, totally rrespective of need.

    And, of course, they lack any form of accountability or responsibilty…

  50. Peter T –

    “Recently there has been policy introduced to concentrate services in the large city hospitals and to reduce services around the periphery.”

    And right there is an essential and unbridgeable difference between the private sector and government.

    The private sector does what it can to attract shoppers voluntarily, including getting their goods as close to us as possiblem whether that’s in physical premises or an online outlet. They come to us.

    The government, it tells us what we’ll get, where we’ll get it, and if it withdraws facilities and makes it difficult to access them (as it is doing with the NHS), well that’s just tough because we’re tax serfs and we can lump it.

  51. they work to a budgetary system that almosts insists that whatever, and how overly generous a budget may be, this years budget must be spent, come what may, totally rrespective of need.

    That is a huge problem, one that the much abused Jimmy Carter tried to fix with ” zero based budgeting ”


    He enacted it in Georgia and tried to do so as President

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