140 2 mins 9 yrs

It’s a national shame..really.

“A few years ago Dervish were representing Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest, the first Irish traditional group to take centre-stage in the event. But that shouldn’t be held against them.

Neither should we hold against them their decision to finally yield to an orchestrated campaign to force them to reverse their decision to travel to Israel in order to play a few concerts with friends there.

Especially when this campaign was characterised by a torrent of “negativity and venom” on Facebook and Twitter and a caution, that the band would lose all credibility if they travelled.

Who could blame musicians for yielding to relentless pressure from the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSG), a lobby group which has recruited more than 200 of their musical and artistic colleagues to this unique cultural boycott of Israel.

“Cyber bullying” is how it was described by Justice Minister Alan Shatter — and it’s not hard to see what he’s getting at. He wondered — as we all should — why this campaign to protect human rights is targeted solely at Israel, and not at the many brutal regimes throughout the world deserving of such attention. Why has the IPSG stayed silent about the thousands of innocent civilians who have been slain by the Assad regime in Syria, for instance?

This cultural boycott is unique in the sense that there is no similar boycott in any other country in the world, though some individual artists have stated they would not travel.

Ironically Dervish are recognised by the Irish Government as cultural ambassadors and carry a banner on their website for ‘Imagine Ireland’ — promoting Irish arts worldwide.

Maybe we’ll have to add ‘except Israel’ to that banner?”

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140 thoughts on “BOYCOTT ISRAEL CONTINUES IN IRELAND..

  1. I’m sorry to see this

    The boycott itself is hypocritical and has European Jew Hatred just below the surface

    The larger boycott isn’t genuine at all if Intimidation tactics must be used to force artists and others to get in line with it.

    Its a very sad day for freedom of expression in Ireland.

  2. “Cyber bullying”

    The latest electronic bete noir aimed squarely at punishing dissent.

    Its a very sad day for freedom of expression in Ireland.

    Agreed. Considering the political chatter about strengthening the criminal code wrt “Cyber bullying”

  3. Phantom,

    The Irish have HATED Jews for many decades. Perhaps it was fostered by the Catholic Church, which hasn’t been fond of the “Lost Tribe of Israel” members for hundreds of years. It boils down to hating someone because you can’t out-do them and you can’t bully them. So the only way to sate your self-delusion for superiority is to demonise them.

    The Irish are kinda infantile in that they see the so-called starving, oppressed minions of Africa and Asia as their personal dolls. They must figuratively, cuddle and nurture them, because that instils a sort of sanctimonious feel-good factor in their collective persona.

    The Jews, of course, are NOT dependent on anyone and very much self-reliant, scholarly and fiercely independent. This of course enrages the Irish who must feel a sense of superiority, albeit child-like when dealing with other cultures. The poor desert folk and the starving jungle denizens fit that mold perfectly.

    In a nutshell, that’s why you’d better not be perceived as pro-Israeli in Ireland or you’ll incur the bully-boy wrath of the indigenous population——BIG TIME. Believe me, I know!

  4. [Israel], of course, are NOT dependent on anyone and very much self-reliant,…

    OK, then take away the US aid money and see what happens.

  5. Census returns record one Jew in Limerick in 1861. This doubled by 1871 and doubled again by 1881. Increases to 35, 90 and 130 are shown for 1888, 1892, and 1896 respectively.[23] A small number of Lithuanian Jewish tradespeople, fleeing persecution in their homeland, began arriving in Limerick in 1878. They initially formed an accepted part of the city’s retail trade, centred on Collooney St.[24] The community established a synagogue and a cemetery in the 1880s. Easter Sunday of 1884 saw the first of what were to be a series of sporadic violent antisemitic attacks and protests. The wife of Lieb Siev and his child were injured by stones and her house damaged by an angry crowd for which the ringleaders were sentenced to hard labour for a month.[25] In 1892 two families were beaten and a stoning took place on November 24, 1896.[25] Many details about Limerick’s Jewish families are recorded in the 1901 census that shows most were peddlers, though a few were described as drapery dealers and grocers.[26]
    In 1904 a young Catholic priest, Father John Creagh, of the Redemptorist order, delivered a fiery sermon castigating Jews for their rejection of Christ, being usurers[27] and allies of the Freemasons then persecuting the Church in France, taking over the local economy, selling shoddy goods at inflated prices, to be paid for in installments. He urged Catholics “not to deal with the Jews.”[27] Later, after eighty Jews had been driven from their homes, Creagh was disowned by his superiors saying that: religious persecution had no place in Ireland.[28] The Limerick Pogrom was the economic boycott waged against the small Jewish community for over two years. Keogh suggests the name derives from their previous Lithuanian experience even though no one was killed or seriously injured.[27] Limerick’s Protestant community, many of whom were also traders, supported the Jews throughout the pogrom, but ultimately Limerick’s Jews fled the city.[29]

    This isn’t the firsr anti-jewish boycott in Ireland. Jew hatred has deep roots in most of Europe. ( source, wiki. They sure don’t teach this in schools )

    It should be fircefully dealt with as a form of aggressive racism that it is.

  6. I don’t know what all the fuss is about, as according to Allan they’re not real Jews anyway, they’re impostors! Europeans filled with self loathing and a strange fascination with persecution.. 😉
    Actually though every even handed Jew and non Jew should be willing to ‘fess up when Israel gets it wrong.
    And sometimes they do, and reluctantly her supporters have to acknowledge that. That’s being a true friend.
    But let’s make no mistake.
    Our reluctance is not based on some kind of “my country right or wrong” philosophy; but because we know how much some people hate Jews?Israel/Zionism. They HATE them, and will seize on any excuse to express that hatred.

  7. I can’t imagine any nation quaking at the thought that Dervish will not be playing a concert there.

  8. I love traditional music.

    It is monstrously unfair that these artists were attacked by these raciat criminals.

  9. Are there any reasons why those who claim to be jewish are hated by the Europeans from which these jews have no identifiable differnces in ethnicity? Clearly there is something in the ideology of judaism which has caused problems historically – kol nidre perhaps being one problem?

  10. I wonder when the right wing supporters of Israel here will manage to tell the Allans of the world to crawl back under his rock?

  11. Allan

    You would be a great ally of these intimidating orchestrators of forced secondary boycott

  12. Troll kind of likes him. The rest of the right are ATW silent in the face of sustained wickedness

    I see Allan for what he is – an insane bigot who can not be reasoned with.

  13. Mahons,

    If liberty means anything it is telling people that which they do not wish to hear. Allan’s views frequently do not resonate with reality but it’s his choice and my choice to allow him the right to say them. He is always civil and to my mind (at least) that is the saving grace.

  14. Hold on a moment – I asked two questions and no attempt was made to answer except with the usual invective at the questioner – not good enough – so I’ll put them forward again, this time with reference from the Jewish Encyclopaedia.

    1. Are there any reasons why those who claim to be jewish are hated by the Europeans from which these jews have no identifiable differnces in ethnicity? (How can I be labelled ‘hateful’ and ‘nazi’ when I repudiate the racial identity aspect of jews? If jews are raciallly different from the likes of me – white skin, brown hair, blue eyes – then what does a jew look like?)

    2. Clearly there is something in the ideology of judaism which has caused problems historically – kol nidre perhaps being one problem? Note that the kol nidre is recited on the Day of Atonement so, at the time of the reference (1906), no non-secular Jew could be unaware of it.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9443-kol-nidre

    Prayer recited in the synagogue at the beginning of the evening service on the Day of Atonement; the name is taken from the opening words. The “Kol Nidre” has had a very eventful history, both in itself and in its influence on the legal status of the Jews. Introduced into the liturgy despite the opposition of rabbinic authorities, repeatedly attacked in the course of time by many halakists, and in the nineteenth century expunged from the prayer-book by many communities of western Europe, it has often been employed by Christians to support their assertion that the oath of a Jew can not be trusted.

    “All vows [], obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called ‘ḳonam,’ ‘ḳonas,’ or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths.”

  15. Mahons –

    “I wonder when the right wing supporters of Israel here will manage to tell the Allans of the world to crawl back under his rock?”

    ATW isn’t my property
    I believe in free speech
    I don’t get my knickers in a twist over other’s opinions
    He’s polite
    He answers questions
    He makes interesting points
    He’s a patriot
    He wants to know how the world works

    Let’s leave it there eh? I don’t like talking about other people or doing the laundry in public.

  16. So what’s this kol nidre thing?

    Some Jewish equivalent of the islamic “you can lie to the kaffirs” clause?

  17. Pete

    The honorable gentleman doesn’t have the slightest sincere interest in how the world works

    He mangles the evidence to pretend it supports his beliefs

  18. Phantom –

    On the contrary, I think Allan has a very enquiring mind, unlike some others around here who believe only State propaganda.

    That’s it, I’m not talking about individuals again. Mahons can have the last droll comment.

  19. There is no one here who ” believes only state propaganda ”

    That is a dopey comment worthy of Ron Paul or Alex Jones

    Sometimes ” the State” is right and sometimes it is wrong

    You have to think things through, and not say that they are always wrong, which is a very lazy approach to akr.

  20. Pete – I had never heard of kol nidre until a couple of weeks ago because I asked myself why Jews were so reviled in the countries where they were attacked. This was one of the main reasons – their reneging on financial agreements as justified by the kol nidre. Now that national law has precedence and that most jewish businessmen are secularised and would never dream of attempting such swindles, the issue is unlikely to have relevance today – but I asked about “historically”.

    Phantom – I took reference from the Jewish Encyclopaedia and the evidence which gives rise to my second question is there. Why don’t you either attempt to answer any of the questions or suggest how they should be re-phrased in order that you could attempt an answer.

  21. I don’t approve of the boycott, as I see it as childish and ineffective but to portray opposition to Israel as anti-Semetic is as pathetic as those who claim that opposition to Obama is racist.

  22. Thugs should get big tastes of their own medicine

    I’d love to be there to give some to these Jew hating worthless sons of bitches

  23. So anyone who is opposed to Israeli actions and campaigns against it hates Jews?

  24. to portray opposition to Israel as anti-Semetic is as pathetic as those who claim that opposition to Obama is racist

    Yes, that’s obviously true.

    Seamus,

    Were the boycotts of Apartheid South Africa in the commerical/cultural/sporting spheres childish? I know you weren’t alive but I presume you know something of them.

    Phantom,

    You’re talkin’ tough, but these activists don’t just talk, they do. You’re angry party because you realise your own impotence. Banging away on a keyboard makes no difference to anything.

  25. No, but this highly selective action is the work of bigots who learned Jew Hatred at their mama’s knees and down the generations

    Which is a neat trick in a land with so few Jews in it

  26. Petr

    Yes they bloodied up a trad band. The activists certainly do things

  27. There must be some degree of realism Petr. Is the boycott honestly going to achieve anything? It wasn’t just random Irish people boycotting South Africa. It was the virtually the entire international sporting community as well as a number of key cultural movements. Even Governments joined in on it, especially in the disproportionally influential Scandinavian countries.

    So in reality it is just a bit of a childish game with people wanting to seem like they are doing something about an issue without them actually doing much.

  28. “No, but this highly selective action is the work of bigots who learned Jew Hatred at their mama’s knees and down the generations”

    I’m opposed to Israel’s actions in the occupied territories. I don’t support this boycott but that is largely because it won’t actually work. Am I a bigot who learned Jew hatred from my mother?

  29. A group of Europeans who claim an identity a God’s Chosen People decide to take land in the Middle East for themselves. They kick out the indigenous people of that land and expand into more land at the same time as phosphorus bombs to kill and maim those squeezed into their last redoubts – what’s so objectionable about that?

    Phantom, as always, refuses to deal with the hard questions, but then, he is on somebody else’s land!

  30. David,

    “Allan’s views frequently do not resonate with reality but it’s his choice and my choice to allow him the right to say them. He is always civil and to my mind (at least) that is the saving grace.”

    I meant to say this earlier. It’s admirable that you allow such diverse opinions on ATW. Other bloggers could learn from you.

    In Allan’s case I’m glad he’s here. I’m interested in reading extreme right-wing opinions such as his; they help me to form (and often to reinforce) my own worldview. Were it not for ATW then I’d have to wade through the most unsavoury blogs, an exercise that I’d be loath to embark upon.

    Respect, Mr Vance!

  31. Yes they bloodied up a trad band.

    Now you’re resorting to making things up? Boycott is a non-violent action, and it contrasts sharply with bombing hospitals in Gaza, for example.

    Seamus,

    It wasn’t just random Irish people boycotting South Africa

    Actually it was at the start. The Dunnes Stores strikers were spat on by their fellow workers and insulted by many member of the public. Look it up. How do you think a movement is built? It must begin somewhere, and this is an international movement that is indeed building momentum.

  32. …and why do you think governments ‘joined in’? Because they were vewy vewy good boys and girls? No. Because of pressure from civil society.

  33. Petr, the boycott campaigns were founded over 20 years before the Dunnes strike.

  34. So what? In the Irish context they were pioneers. Business and government hadn’t ‘joined in’. You must see how illogical your argument is. Movemennts start somewhere.

  35. Richard – that’s a very hi-falutin’ comment from you. Now, why not drop the pretentiousness and make an attempt to answer the questions which are beyond Phantom? Now that I look at this thread I see that nobody has made any attempt to answer the questions which I asked so here they are again, with the content in () of question 1 specifically for Richard to read and respond:

    1. Are there any reasons why those who claim to be jewish are hated by the Europeans from which these jews have no identifiable differences in ethnicity? (How can I be labelled ‘hateful’ and ‘nazi’ when I repudiate the racial identity aspect of jews? If jews are raciallly different from the likes of me – white skin, brown hair, blue eyes – then what does a jew look like?)

    2. Clearly there is something in the ideology of judaism which has caused problems historically – kol nidre perhaps being one problem? Note that the kol nidre is recited on the Day of Atonement so, at the time of the reference (1906), no non-secular Jew could be unaware of it.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9443-kol-nidre

    Prayer recited in the synagogue at the beginning of the evening service on the Day of Atonement; the name is taken from the opening words. The “Kol Nidre” has had a very eventful history, both in itself and in its influence on the legal status of the Jews. Introduced into the liturgy despite the opposition of rabbinic authorities, repeatedly attacked in the course of time by many halakists, and in the nineteenth century expunged from the prayer-book by many communities of western Europe, it has often been employed by Christians to support their assertion that the oath of a Jew can not be trusted.

    “All vows [], obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called ‘ḳonam,’ ‘ḳonas,’ or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths.”

  36. Another long comment from Allan that most people will scroll past.

  37. //No, but this highly selective action is the work of bigots who learned Jew Hatred at their mama’s knees and down the generations//

    Phantom, that’s total bullshit. You have no idea that there is “Jew Hatred” to such a degree in Ireland, apart from what certain welcome voices tell you.
    For example, you may be suprised to learn that that Jewish flight from Limerick ended with the folks moving really just down the road where they were warmly welcomed by the locals and where they stayed and thrived. “They sure don’t teach this in schools” either.

    By claiming all this ill-defnined “Jew Hatred” you are basically saying the same thing as Allan.

    //Are there any reasons why those who claim to be jewish are hated by the Europeans from which these jews have no identifiable differnces in ethnicity?//

    Allan, your first Q is of the when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife variety. There are hystericals imagining massive Jew-Hatred among the more benighted in Israel, among the even more benighted Right and now it seems even among sensible American people who really should know better.
    Nobody is denying that that there are and have been more than enough people in Europe (but where not?) who hated Jews; but they have always been a minority, if at times a very powerful one. Much more people like certain Jews and don’t think of the rest as a generalised group to have an opintion one way or the other. Even more people – by far the large majority – are totally indifferent to the whole question in the first place.

    You guys really should wake up and have a look at this section of reality outside the threads of ATW for once, as disappointing as it may be.

  38. Petr, while it is true that movements have to start somewhere I also don’t think that the Israeli Boycott movement is going anywhere. I don’t ever see it gaining anywhere near the international support that the anti-Apartheid movement had. Not least because large sections of society don’t believe that Israel is doing much in the way of anything wrong.

  39. Petr – indeed, but it’s for Richard. I wouldn’t dream of asking you to read a comment of more than five lines.

  40. Noel – I stated something to the effect of your comment on a thread a few weeks ago in response to Agit who said that he “liked Jews”. I queried whether it was all jews and closed by writing that I judge any jew by what he says and what he does – and Agit likened me to a nazi. Here is an example of a jew doing and saying what I like:

    It’s Jackie Mason of the GDL defending Mel Gibson’s ‘anti-semitism’. Highly recommended and it should have been on here earlier.

  41. “Another long comment from Allan that most people will scroll past.”

    Petr,
    I certainly will.
    I don’t see any point in allowing myself to drown in the quicksands of Allan’s arguments. however well researched.
    I tell you why.
    Jews have been persecuted in Europe by the Catholic and even Protestant churches in Europe over the last two millenia.
    Fact or Fiction?

    During WW2 some six million “deluded Europeans” calling themselves Jews were rounded up, along with Gypsies, Gays, Dissidents, People with Learning Difficlties, and killed, burnt, gassed, experimented on and worked to death.
    Fact or Fiction?

    Deluded Russian/ Polish Europeans calling themselves Jews, had settled on land bought in the area known as Palestine (NOT a State). They called themselves Zionists. They encouraged the displaced stateless remnants of the Holocaust to emigrate to Palestine, then under the control of the British.
    Fact or Fiction?

    After a series of wars designed to wipe out these “deluded Europeans” whom even the Arabs described as Jews, the State of Israel has just celebrated its 64th year of existence
    Fact or Fiction?

    What are we to do with these people? Where should we send them? How should we re-distribute them in say, the Europe which witnessed the Final Solution?
    Or the United States of America, a totally different generation from the one which approved the founding of the State of Israel in 1948?

    Would the Arab nations round about Israel be happy to let Israel exist if she threw open her borders to all and sundry?
    Or if they laid down all their armaments, and abandoned their settlements?

    That’s why for me all Allan’s objections and arguments are ulimately pointless.

  42. “Phantom, as always, refuses to deal with the hard questions, but then, he is on somebody else’s land!”

    What a daft comment! When it comes down to it, we’re nearly all on land once inhabited by somebody else..

  43. There are people around who hate Italians, others hate Chinese and some really despise Mexicans – but why has hatred of Jews – which is after all just as stupid, if more tasteless, as the other generalised hatreds – become such a Cardinal Sin that makes so many people go all funny.

  44. David – that is a cop out. He’s a polite anti-semite? how charming.

    Pete – you’ve been his beard for long enough.

  45. Noel,
    Firstly if you follow Allan’s logic, there are no Jews. There are “pseudo Jews”! Europeans who for whatever reason,decided they wanted to be Jewish, wanted to be misunderstood, wanted to be persecuted, wanted to be gassed, humiliated etc.

    Digest that bit, and get back to me.

  46. //Jews have been persecuted in Europe by the Catholic and even Protestant churches in Europe over the last two millenia.
    Fact or Fiction?//

    Fiction.

    //After a series of wars designed to wipe out these “deluded Europeans” whom even the Arabs described as Jews, the State of Israel has just celebrated its 64th year of existence
    Fact or Fiction?//

    Fiction.

    //How should we re-distribute them in say, the Europe which witnessed the Final Solution?
    Or the United States of America, a totally different generation from the one which approved the founding of the State of Israel in 1948?//

    That’s nonsense. Encouraging Jews, or any people, to go to one place or stay in one place is evey bit as bad as encouraging them to clear out of some place.

    Jews are as safe in Europe or the US as they are in Israel (and in certain ways of course much safer) – and to suggest that they are not, that they are in danger from the other people there, is ugly fanaticism – the kind of crap that Israeli leaders need to keep their ship afloat. Such people who make such a coddle of them are little better than anti-semites.

    Jews are all individuals – let each go or stay where he or she bloody well likes.

  47. Noel

    Jew Hatred, as expressed in Europe and in Muslim Lands, often has ended in prople being killed, in numbers small and large.

    That’s why feeling and thinking people get all funny.

    It never went away, you know.

  48. The Japanese have a national home and so do the Jews, in the lqnd of their ancestors.

    And that’s that.

  49. Noel

    Long term, without a strong Israel, Jews may not be safe anywhere, especially in Europe, with it’s Jew Haters now wrapped in the veneer of Divestment fans.

    Israel would respond to an attempt at another Holocaust, anywhere.

    It’s not just a home. It’s an insurance policy.

  50. Don’t I know it!!

    Cheers, off for a bikevrideon a glorious spring day

  51. The Limerick Pogrom? I never knew of that.

    How interesting, and what a shameful episode, a stain on Limerick and Ireland it-

    Hang on. Limerick? 1904? Cripes. By the sound of’em, I wouldn’t be surprised if one’s forebears had a hand in that. They had a hand in alot of dodgy stuff back then. I’ll have to make enquiries about whether I’m descended from some proto-Hitlerite Paddy.

    Ah well, shit happens.

  52. “Jews are as safe in Europe or the US as they are in Israel (and in certain ways of course much safer) – and to suggest that they are not, that they are in danger from the other people there, is ugly fanaticism – the kind of crap that Israeli leaders need to keep their ship afloat. Such people who make such a coddle of them are little better than anti-semites.”
    let’s try that another way..

    Northern Ireland Protestants/Catholics are as safe in Northern Ireland as they are in the Republic of Ireland (and in certain ways of course much safer) – and to suggest that they are in danger from the other people there, is ugly fanaticism – the kind of crap that Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists need to keep their ship afloat.
    Such people who make such a coddle of one side or the other are little better than Shinners/Orangemen/Brit Bastards etc etc..

  53. Noel,
    I repeat,
    Can you explain the pseudo Jew phenomena that according to Allan, led to millions of deluded people being murdered in Concentration camps, then upping sticks and moving out to the Middle East so as to infuriate the surrounding Arab population?

  54. Agit8ed, I’ve a feeling neither of us knows what you’re talking about.

    (but maybe you can help one of us by explaining how, say, Catholics in NI are safer than in the RoI.)

    //Long term, without a strong Israel, Jews may not be safe anywhere//

    Phantom, do you seriously think American Jews may one day be massacred?
    And that Israel would, or could, intervene if they were ?

    //PS Can you explain the pseudo Jew phenomena//

    Agit8ed, I’ve a feeling that was addressed to me, althogh of course I’ve never mentioned or referred to any such thing.
    Where you and Allan – and Phantom to a lesser extent – are wrong is that you see things in racial terms. Such an approach very quickly comes to grief on the subject of Jews, and most other people too. There is simply no such racial group corresponding to those designated by the name.

  55. Noel,
    I don’t think the situation with Palestinians and Israelis is so very different to the situation in Northern Ireland at its worst.

    You refer to “Jews are all individuals – let each go or stay where he or she bloody well likes.”
    but of course it’s not like that.
    Just as Protestants and Catholics are individuals on one level, but not on a community level.
    Otherwise there would have been no need to kick the s*** out of each other, or blow innocent “individual” Protestants and innocent shoppers/drinkers to pieces…

    Aaah!
    That the whole population of Northern Ireland were born with the same commonsense that you were obviously born with…

  56. Adit8ed, I take it you’ve by now given up trying to think of how Catholics in NI are safer than those in the Republic.

    //Just as Protestants and Catholics are individuals on one level, but not on a community level.//

    Are you really saying that Jews in the States and Europe are primarily Jews and only later individual citizens of the countries they live in?

    If you are, you don’t know them, my friend.
    And it’s yet another view you have in common with Allan, and indeed for all the world like some 1930’s crackpot dictator who saw only “groups” of citizens to be managed and shoved about according to some higher ethnic plan.

  57. “Adit8ed, I take it you’ve by now given up trying to think of how Catholics in NI are safer than those in the Republic.”

    No I haven’t. The idea was to transpose your argument about Jews being safe in Europe/US to Protestants/Catholics being safe in NI/RofI.
    You didn’t read it properly. I meant that despite what the authorities might say, Catholics may feel safer in the RofI than in parts of NI, and the same for Protestants.
    It ain’t that difficult to understand.

  58. Allan claims that Historical Jew hatred must be based on something to do with Jewish scripture an practise and mentions this “Kol Nidre” obscure doctrine which he unearthed by searching through the Jewish Encyclopaedis – a tomeof which he mustr be more familiar by now than the most intense Jewish scholar. How many European ant-Semites would ever have even heard of “Kol Nidre” let alone based their views on Jews on it. Anti-Semitism in Europe is based on 2 things. One, the universal tendency for human groups to develop hostility and suspicion of other cultures and Judaism being the most prominent non-Christian identity in European history coupled with the general self-sufficiency and success of Jewish people only fuels that hostility and 2, the dominance of the RC church as an authoratitive power and it’s historic opposition to non-Christian religous manifestation in Catholic/Christian Europe – they are the main reasons for European anti-Semitism. It is not the fault of the Jews.

  59. Good stuff, Colm Nidre!

    from Wikipedia and in deference to all those on ATW who declared,
    “We are all Julian Assange now!”
    Re Kol Nidre

    The vows and pledges being annulled by this ceremony are of a limited category. As the ArtScroll Mahzor explains it: “There is a dangerous and erroneous misconception among some people that the Kol Nidrei nullification of vows — whether past or future — … gives people the right to break their word or to make insincere promises that will have no legal force. This is not the case. The Kol Nidrei declaration can invalidate only vows that one undertakes on his own volition. It has no effect on vows or oath imposed by someone else, a court, or a gentile. Also, the invalidation of future vows takes effect only if someone makes the vow without having in mind his previous Kol Nidrei declaration. But if he makes the vow with Kol Nidrei in mind — thus being openly insincere in his vow — the vow is in full force.”[8] Moreover, as Rabbi Yechiel of Paris explained in a Disputation that took place before the King and Queen of France in 1240, “Only the erroneously broken vows are annulled, that nobody might commit the sin of intentionally breaking vows.”[9]

    There is a misunderstanding (probably intentional on the part of some), about the meaning of Kol Nidre leading into the Day of Atonement;
    when all Jews admit to being European fakes seek atonement and repentance.
    Because for observant Jews the Jewish people are in a holy relationship with the living God, and among other things were called to be “A light to the Gentiles”
    That’s what Jews down the centuries have understood Kol Nidre and Yom Kippur to be about.
    Not some daft, international conspiracy to rule the world.. 🙂

  60. A group of Europeans who claim an identity a God’s Chosen People decide to take land in the Middle East for themselves. They kick out the indigenous people of that land and expand into more land

    Yes. But their right to exist within their legal borders must be respected. Unfortunatley, they seem bent on colonising the entire west bank, cheered on by the usual suspects in the west.

  61. “Allan claims that Historical Jew hatred must be based on something to do with Jewish scripture an practise and mentions this “Kol Nidre” obscure doctrine ”

    Colm, yes it’s mad, but no more mad that the notion that the hatred for Muslims you see here every day is based on something in the Koran or some point of Islamic theology (Moon God, Paedophile Prophet anybody?

    //the dominance of the RC church as an authoratitive power and it’s historic opposition to non-Christian religous manifestation in Catholic/Christian Europe – they are the main reasons for European anti-Semitism.//

    That isn’t true, Colm.
    First of all, both Christianity and Jews have been in western and central Europe for 2K years – for most of the time they got on well enough. True, there has always been some discrimination against Jews, simply because discrimination was what the medieval code was all about; they were certainly almost always much better off than and not nearly as discriminated against as Christian serfs.

    Jews generally prospered, increased in both numbers and wealth, over those 2000 years. They usually had the ear of the Emperor, local lords and – above all – the bishops and the higher Catholic clergy. They were allowed mint their own coin, and the value of Jewish coinage at the time (one of the only currencies that was legal tender uniformly troughout Europe) is testimony to their commercial success.

    Attacks on Jews were rare over the 2 thousand years and usually local. When they came they were often bloody enough, but they were not based on religious feelings and the Jews’ enemy was certainly not the church. They obtained special protection from the church and bishops, usually housed on church lands and very often the local bishop was the only friend they had.

    Their enemy was the rising mercantile class and the guilds. Jews were considered internationalists, they paid taxes to the bishop and the lords and could be arraigned only before their courts. The rising guilds – especially in the 13th and 14th C – wanted freedom from these feudal rulers, they wanted to set up free cities and trade freely, but in their cities they had the Jews, who they in fact saw as the Bishop’s/Lord’s men in their midst, people who traded along all the rivers of Europe in thier own language and with their own money and who felt little or no identification with or loyalty towards the city and who didn’t recognise its guilds with their rules, etc.

    Such things like the charge of well-poisoning and ritual murder of children were only excuses to rouse the rabble (and I dont need to tell you how easily people believe in the craziest things once the baddie is supposed to be someone they want to hate anyway). The real cause of strong resentment leading to attacks on Jews was almost always economic.

  62. Peter.
    Many German “PseudoJews” considered themselves German as much as Jewish. They had been there quite a long time. But after the horrors of the Holocaust, going to Palestine was what you might call a “no brainer.”
    That was probably true for all the Europeans who had deluded themselves into thinking they were Jews.

    “Stay in Europe where we rounded up, our parents killed, our homes and businesses stolen from us, and we were melted down to make soap, – or go to Palestine?
    Hmmm, what to do, what to do?!

    So that’s that one.

    The indigenous population (understandably), resented this sudden influx of Pseudo Jews, especially as many of them had been rooting for the side that had been busy trying to wipe them out..So they tried to drive them out. Also understandable.
    But there WAS NO State of Palestine at that time.

    Finally,
    very few “usual suspects in the West” are cheering the Israelis (whoever they are), to colonise the West Bank.

  63. “First of all, both Christianity and Jews have been in western and central Europe for 2K years – for most of the time they got on well enough. True, there has always been some discrimination against Jews, simply because discrimination was what the medieval code was all about; they were certainly almost always much better off than and not nearly as discriminated against as Christian serfs.

    Jews generally prospered, increased in both numbers and wealth, over those 2000 years. They usually had the ear of the Emperor, local lords and – above all – the bishops and the higher Catholic clergy. They were allowed mint their own coin, and the value of Jewish coinage at the time (one of the only currencies that was legal tender uniformly troughout Europe) is testimony to their commercial success. ”
    Noel,
    You’ve been reading Josef Goebbels Memoirs under the bed covers again,,,,

  64. But there WAS NO State of Palestine at that time.

    So what? There were people who had lived there for centuries, and they were displaced by the immigrants from Europe.

    very few “usual suspects in the West” are cheering the Israelis (whoever they are), to colonise the West Bank.

    Really? Check ATW for starters, but also Fox and the right-wing blogosphere stateside.

  65. Agit8ed, you’ve already shown you don’t know what you’re talking about (and this is really my last call for you to explain how “Catholics in NI are in many ways safer than in the Republic”, as you claimed , before back-peddling to say there were safer in the Republic).

    With your lazy and juvenile remark you compare me with that raving anti-Semite just because you don’t understand a word of what I wrote. You could have tried to show how even one sentence of my last comment is wrong, or is not driven by admiration for the Jewish contribution to European history, but of course you can’t because you are too soft-headed and a know-nothing.

  66. Noel

    I agree with you on your point that the primary catalyst for ant-semitism in Europe was economic, but I don’t agree that the RC church played lttle or no part in promoting it. The Church for the large majority of it’s existence was much more a tool of power and control than simply a congregation of worship and it was always adept at promoting many types of whipped up feelings amongst the faithfull, including anti-semitism whenver it felt even the slightest threat to it’s cultural and political dominance.

  67. “including anti-semitism whenver it felt even the slightest threat to it’s cultural and political dominance.”

    But the Jews were anything but a threat to the church in the Middle Ages. At the time, the church’s power and wealth was threatened by, as I said, the rising cities and nascent capitalism, and later the rising nation states. Both the church and Jews – with their internationalism, their desire not to rock the boat and to maintain a working status quo – were victims of these developments and were on the same side. It is the very fact that the Jews were close to the Bishops that was often their undoing – they were considered outsiders, fifth-columnists, traitors to their fellow citizens in the city but smooching it up with the Bishops and Lords.

    Of course it’s also true that there are many anti-Jewish parts in the Bible and that many local, and usually rather uncouth, priests close to the common people often led the charge against Jews (Martin Luther was very typical of his type), but they did so as spokesmen for the people and never on behalf of the church.

    It seems for many people obvious that the church was part of anti-semitic pogroms, just as it’s obvious that the church worked hand in hand with Irish republicanism in the Troubles.

    But in both cases the obvious assumption is wrong, and in fact quite the opposite was the case, and indeed for more or less the same reasons.

  68. Colm –

    Judaism has never remotely been a threat to the Church’s political and cultural dominance in Europe. In fact the oldest, continuous Jewish settlement in Europe is in Rome, about a mile from the Vatican. Its existence from ancient times has rarely been threatened.

    All wars are about power and riches, so are the purges and pogroms. It just so happens that Jews, what with their usuary and economic success, were often a convenient target when rulers needed to deflect blame for some catastrophe or social unrest.

  69. Exactly right, Pete – the true voice of the historian comes through loud and clear.

  70. Agit – let me put it to you again. If jews are racially or ethnically different from me – white guy, brown hair, blue eyes – why are so many of them like me. Specifically what would a jew look like? Jackie Mason, perhaps, who isn’t too descriptively different from me.

    This guy is jewish:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1063705/Paul-Newmans-hidden-heartache-How-Hollywood-giant-got-sons-drugs-overdose-death.html

    Unfortunately, whilst the description matches, the looks don’t 🙁

    The jews who are indigenous to the middle east are semitic – they share the same semitic roots as the muslims of the area and many of the muslims were formerly jewish. The post-WW2 incomers are European, not semitic. Their claim to Jerusalem and the lands of Israel as based on their faith is no stronger than mine as a (lapsed) Christian.

  71. he oldest, continuous Jewish settlement in Europe is in Rome, about a mile from the Vatican. Its existence from ancient times has rarely been threatened.

    Yes, even under Mussolini most Italian jews survived.

  72. I never said that Judaism was a threat to the RC Church’s domination in Europe but I agree with exactly what you said in the rest of your 10.04 post.

  73. OMG – a classic Agit-ism:

    Agit8ed, on May 6th, 2012 at 8:31 pm Said:
    from Wikipedia Re Kol Nidre

    The vows and pledges …

  74. Here is an interview with Israelis who are on a course about how to “edit wikpedia … so that it is zionist in nature”

  75. Allan

    You really ought to go on Mastermind – Chosen subject “Jews and their secrets” , you’d score 40 points and no passes 😉

  76. Pete

    I heard about that Limerick pogrom ages ago. Malachy McCourt, the lunatic brother of Frank McCourt ( ” Angela’ s Ashes ” ) had an AM radio show in NY on Sundays, and he mentioned it maybe 30 years ago, and for some reason I remembered it.

    Phantom, do you seriously think American Jews may one day be massacred?
    And that Israel would, or could, intervene if they were

    ?

    I think that American Jews are generally well regarded. I don’t see that as a possibility here, not a realistic one anyway.

    I’d be more concerned about Europe, east and west. I don’t think that base Jew hatred ever went away, it just went underground somewhat.

    I think that the ” divest ” movement has this this as a source – and I know that we don’t agree on that one.

    I think that Muslim immigrants from places like North Africa and Pakistan have a virulent hatred of Jews ( not just ” Zionism “, not just Israel ) which already has manifested itself in a number of incidents.

    If the economy had crashed in 2008 – as it nearly did, we can’t say it enough – you might have seen attacks on Jews in Europe for several reasons, including that they are always the scapegoats for some, and that they’d specifically be targeted as causes for the collapsed economy.

    Do a search for ” Jewish banksters ” and you’ll find a lot of evil stuff. ” Bankster ” as it is used by many has strong anti semitic overtones.

    If Jews were systematically attacked in Europe, the Israelis would use every diplomatic and military weapon at their disposal to protect them.

    The real area of concern for Holocaust II would be Israel itself. If Israel were defeated / crushed, I don’t think that there is much doubt but that the Jews who could not escape would be destroyed. As the once large Jewish communities throughout the Middle East have been destroyed, only this would be very much faster.

  77. Though to use the Limerick pogram as evidence of modern hatred of Jews in Ireland is as silly as using the lynching of Leo Frank as evidence of modern hatred of Jews in America.

  78. I dunno.

    Ireland has a very small Jewish population.

    I’d think that many of these ” divest ” numbskulls – who didn’t try to persuade as much as they tried to intimidate in a very nasty campaign – have never met a Jew. Fed on a diet of bile at the universities and Al Jazeera, they probably do feel that Jews and Israeli Jews ( and aren’t they the worst ) have horns and tails.

    Acting more out of hate than out of love, they’re direct intellectual descendents of the Limerick bigots.

  79. Do a search for ” Jewish banksters ” and you’ll find a lot of evil stuff. ” Bankster ” as it is used by many has strong anti semitic overtones.

    Exactly the point of claiming to be jewish – one gets to play the race card even though there are no racial differences between the banksters and the rest of white America. It is therefore no surprise to learn that the Anti-Defamation League was formed in 1913 and funded by the same people who also created and own the Fed in 1913. Any attack on the owners of the Fed becomes ‘anti-semitic’.

    Additionally, claiming to be jewish is a good career move. here is a video of those in show-biz who are jewish, and I had to double-check these just to be sure:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtJQlw-ZjT4

    Jack Black, William Shatner, Harrison Ford, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Jake Gyllenhaal, Sarah Silverman, Lisa Kudrow, Tom Arnold, Roseanne Barr, Orlando Bloom, James Caan, Jamie Lee Curtis, Robert Downey Jr, David Duchovney, Sean Penn, James Franco,

  80. Almost all this fake hysteria about anti-Jewishness is just an attempt to avoid facing the justified criticism of Israel’s actions in the West Bank.

    Jews in America and in Europe are as safe as anywhere in the world, including in Israel. The idea of an economic crash leading to European attacks on Jews is preposterous – Jews are no longer identifiable and have in any case long since stopped being the convenient scapegoat, their place taken by Muslims, as practically any page on this site will show you.

    Jews are arriving in Europe in increasing numbers, including from Israel and especially into Germany, whose Jewish population has increased 10-fold since reunification. In fact, more Russian Jews prefer to move to Germany than to Israel – much to the consternation of the ethnic fetishists in Jerusalem, of course. My next door neighbour was born in Israel and she and her husband (from Russia) and children would laugh at any suggestion that the knives are being sharpened around her.

    Obviously they haven’t been reading ATW and don’t know the real truth.

  81. BDS is not anti-Jewish. It’s to punish a state for its crimes. Crimes which are defended by supporters on here and by the actions of the ‘most moral army’ in the world.

    http://t.co/2Q9h4E0Q

  82. Alan,

    Pretentious, moi? But do let me attempt a belated answer to your first question.

    “Are there any reasons why those who claim to be jewish are hated by the Europeans from which these jews have no identifiable differences in ethnicity?”

    There are, and if I had more time on this fine Monday morning then I’d gladly lay them out for you.

    But the story of the persecution of the Jews is a lengthy one, and better pens than mine have attempted to dissect its causes. Sam Harris is one such. Here’s a passage from his book, The End of Faith, that merits reading.

    As Colm might say, I make no apologies for its length.

    The gravity of Jewish suffering over the ages, culminating in the Holocaust, makes it almost impossible to entertain any suggestion that Jews might have brought their troubles upon themselves. This is, however, in a rather narrow sense, the truth.

    Prior to the rise of the Church, Jews became the objects of suspicion and occasional persecution for their refusal to assimilate, for the insularity and professed superiority of their religious culture—that is, for the content of their own unreasonable, sectarian beliefs.

    The dogma of a “chosen people,” while at least implicit in most faiths, achieved a stridence in Judaism that was unknown in the ancient world. Among cultures that worshiped a plurality of Gods, the later monotheism of the Jews proved indigestible. And while their explicit demonization as a people required the mad work of the Christian Church, the ideology of Judaism remains a lightning rod for intolerance to this day.

    As a system of beliefs, it appears among the least suited to survive in atheological state of nature. Christianity and Islam both acknowledge the sanctity of the Old Testament and offer easy conversion to their faiths. Islam honors Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as forerunners of Muhammad. Hinduism embraces almost anything in sight with its manifold arms (many Hindus, for instance, consider Jesus an avatar of Vishnu). Judaism alone finds itself surrounded by unmitigated errors. It seems little wonder, therefore, that it has drawn so much sectarian fire.

    Jews, insofar as they are religious, believe that they are bearers of a unique covenant with God. As a consequence, they have spent the last two thousand years collaborating with those who see them as different by seeing themselves as irretrievably so.

    Judaism is as intrinsically divisive, as ridiculous in its literalism, and as at odds with the civilizing insights of modernity as any other religion. Jewish settlers, by exercising their “freedom of belief” on contested land, are now one of the principal obstacles to peace in the Middle East. They will be a direct cause of war between Islam and the West should one ever erupt over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

  83. Richard – you have seen the short list of Hollywood stars who are (claiming to be) jewish and you may even have looked at the video because there are far many more. Take a look at them because they are self-evidently European i.e. not from the middle east. Whoever it was who had this “unique covenant with God”, it wasn’t them nor any of their predecessors, nor mine neither.

    There is no racial nor ethnic link from jews in the white man’s world to the middle east. Given this as fact, then Judaism distills down to a belief system, and that belief is that any believer has a unique covenant with God, as compared with those who don’t. Surely that supremacist view must cloud the judgement and perspective towards others, would it not?

    As Judaism is a belief system, then those beliefs, like any other beliefs, can be challenged. On this site, Christianity is openly mocked by the leftists, islam is rightly viewed as mediaeval barbarism, yet Judaism gets a free pass. Why is that?

  84. I reckon that Agit8ed, , with his wonderful

    I blame it on my colleague Colm Nidre…

    is the winner by two peyots and a long beard!

  85. Allan

    Brcause Judaism is not seen as threatening or powerfull, nor does it manifest itself by interfering in Non-Jews lifestyles and habits. It is numbers that count. Only in Israel are the Orthodox Jews potent enough to cause trouble for secular society. Islam and Christianty throughout the centuries have been numerous enough in adherents and powerfull enough in leadership terms to impose themselves and order and shape whole populations and nations – Judaism has not since biblical times, been in that position.

  86. //As Judaism is a belief system, //

    Allen, Judaism is not a belief system. I’d say very few of those Jews (who, like most Jews, got where they are through merit, not through some conspiratorial nexus) whose presence seems to annoy you believe in that chosen-people nonsense. Neither did most of the early Zionists, and certainly neither did Albert Einstein who was offered the presidency of Israel. Even a belief in any kind of God, or even recognition of a certain tradition, has nothing to do with being Jewish.

  87. Noel,

    “Judaism is not a belief system.”

    You’ve just made Allan’s point for him. Of course it’s a belief system: a sabbath on Saturday, kosher meat and all that superstitious rubbish.

  88. Yes of course Judaism the religion is a belief system, but I think the point Noel was making is that there is a vast difference between the devout following of intricate old Talmudic texts and “Jewishness” as a form of identity . The clear majority of Jews are Jewish for simply hereditary family reasons not because they live their lives strictly by a particular religous code.

  89. Exactly, I’m saying that how Jewishness is defined by Jew and non-Jew alike has nothing to do with religious faith. When that committee in Jerusalem assesses the Jewishness or lack thereof of new arrivals (I wonder has anyone made a comedy about it?), they don’t ask or care about the person’s beliefs or if he or she has any at all; all they ask about is your grannie etc.

  90. Noel,

    Sam Harris’s mother is Jewish, but try telling him he’s a Jew and be prepared to duck 😉

  91. Old joke I just remembered:

    A man in a business suit and holding a bruefcase is waiting at a bus stop in Knightsbridge. He’s joined by what Allan would call a non-indigenous Englishman.

    “What time’s the next bus due?” the newcomer asks.

    “Read the fucking timetable like everybody else, you black bastard.”

  92. Traditional antisemitism is in many ways based upon religious discrimination against Jews by Christians. Christian doctrine was ingrained with the idea that Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus, and thus deserve punishment (this is known as the Deicide, or killing of god, Myth). Building upon that hatred of Jews was the Supercession Myth, which claimed that Christianity had replaced Judaism, as the Jews had failed in their role as the chosen people of God — and thus deserved to be punished, specifically by the Christian world. Over the centuries various stereotypes about Jews came into being. Individual Jews were not judged based on their personal achievements or merits, but rather were seen on the whole as greedy, devilish, standoffish, lazy, money‐grubbing, and over‐sexed.
    This basic pattern would continue to dominate European Jewish history for hundreds of years, well into the medieval period. The stereotype of the Jew as the financial manipulator was not the only new antisemitic image that developed in this period. The first recorded case of an allegation of ritual murder, the charge that Jews tortured and murdered Christian children, was in 1144, in Norwich, England. This charge claimed that Jews used the blood of Christian children on Passover for ritual purposes (e.g., in the making of unleavened bread eaten on Passover, or for drinking instead of wine).

    At around the same time the allegation of host desecration originated. This canard claimed that Jews manipulated Christians who owed them money into giving the host or wafer (used in Mass) to the Jewish people, who then used it to mutilate and torture the body of Jesus as they had done at the time of the Crucifixion. (The Catholic belief in transubstantiation, which holds that sacramental elements of the wafer and wine change into the literal body of Christ, made that charge particularly damning.) These images would become staples of antisemitic stereotyping and would prove to be both deadly and long‐lived, lasting into the twenty‐first century.

    from,
    Strategies in Facing Antisemitism:
    An Educational Resource Guide

    Now I know that’s not going to satisfy our resident “sceptics”, so let’s look a bit further…

    Message from Mr Koïchiro Matsuura, Director‐General of UNESCO
    UNESCO welcomes the production of this important online manual. The Simon Wiesenthal Centre and Yad Vashem have assembled a set of valuable recommendations and suggestions that will help teachers to educate against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, and promote the values of tolerance, mutual respect and understanding.

    Finally, let’s look at a section of the Nuremberg Trials entitled:-

    Crimes against humanity: “namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in the execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated” (Calvocoressi 57).

    “The prosecution contended that Crimes against Humanity fell within the province of International Law if they were committed in preparation for or in connection with international war such as aggressive war and War Crimes. This restriction was so as to not infringe in the domestic affairs of a sovereign state merely on the grounds that it was offending against humanitarian principles” (Calvocoressi 57-58).

    The plan to exterminate the Jewish race falls under the category of Crimes against Humanity. Also, experiments conducted by the Nazis fall under both categories. The experimenters were given indictments by the Military Tribunal five days after the main trials were completed in Nuremberg, but were not those twenty two members who were convicted in the actual Nuremberg Trials. The experiments include the following: (Mitscherlich, contents page).

    Low Pressure and super cooling
    Tests of the possibility of drinking sea-water
    Typhus Vaccine Experiments
    Epidemic Hepatitis Virus Research
    Sulphonamide Tests
    Experiments on Bone Transplantation
    Phlegmon Experiments
    Mustard Gas and Phosgene Experiments
    Collection of the Skeletons of Jews
    Euthanasia Program, ‘Direct Elimination’ and Mass Sterilization

    Our resident sceptics will deny
    a)that the people who suffered for being Jews were not Jews (Allan).
    or perhaps that

    b) Jews have been persecuted in Europe by the Catholic and even Protestant churches in Europe over the last two millenia. (Noel)

    What I find contemptible about both these “educated, intellectual, cultured” gentlemen, is that they gloss over what happened to those millions of people (whoever they were, Allan) during the Holocaust and the attitude of the Churches to Jews during the nearly two thousand years of European history. (Noel). It would appear that these deaths were inconsequential or that antisemitism was something that Jews somehow brought on themselves..

    This despite the admissions of the Catholic church and others, and the evidence available to anyone with an open mind, and a respect for recorded history.

    So I see no difference between those who attempted the extermination of all those millions, or/and seek to deny the reality of antisemitism in Europe; and those who either deny that it happened, or suggest that the numbers were far fewer.

    Israel’s policies and actions towards the West Bank and Gaza have been questioned by those who support Israel, and I have made it clear on numerous occasions, that I and my Jewish in laws, even Israelis and Jews; do not give blanket support to Israel.

    But this will never be enough for these two particular gentlemen. They won’t say it, but one wonders what it would take to satisfy their incessant criticism and questioning of recorded history. It obviously isn’t a sense of compassion, horror or condemnation.
    So what really lies behind it then?

  93. Agit8ed

    I wouldn’t put Noel in the same camp as Allan. Allan has a particular obsession with ‘Jews’ in a way that Noel simply does not.

  94. Noel is not an obsessive, his feet are on the ground, and he thinks things through.

  95. Once again, Agit, there is no such thing as the jewish race but clearly you believe that there is – and I’m sure that Hitler did too!

    Of course, in the PC-world in which we live, being a ‘race’ has advantages. For example, a white guy can claim ‘discrimination’ if he’s jewish whereas I can’t even though this ‘victim’ has the same ethnicity and physical description as I do. Quite how William Shatner, Harrison Ford, Lisa Kudrow et al can claim to be racially different to me is beyond explanation, though Agit knows why – please explain if you’re here.

    However, if you are the controllers of money, you don’t want people questioning your control of money, so ‘anti-semitism’ is invented as a shield and it dates from 1913, when the Fed and the ADL were created by the same people, white people who share the same racial characteristics as me and William Shatner, Orlando Bloom, Jack Black, Harrison Ford, Michael Bolton….. and anyone who questions the Fed (Paulson, Bernanke, et al) is anti-semitic. Here are the photographs and self-declared ‘ethnicity’ of the controllers of the Fed. Bizarrely, I can’t distinguish between those who are Jewish and those who are ordinary whites: perhaps Agit can give me some tips for discerning who’s jewish.

    Who Controls the Federal Reserve System? (Part 1)

  96. Allan

    Why can’t you claim discrmination for being white ? If you saw a job advert that said “No whites” – do’;t you think that wuld be actionable under the law ?

  97. Allan seems to get his lists of jewish folks from Adam Sandler’s song. Maybe his is planning to star in a movie called Sandler’s List.

  98. Pete – I’d say he makes six points and wishes them sown on to clothing of Jewish people.

  99. Why can’t you claim discrimination for being white ?

    Here’s an example of how it almost worked for a white guy who had been doing 84mph in a 55-zone. Normally, it would have been an open-and-shut case but, when the white guy is a lawyer and a jew, then there is a get-out card which can be played.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/lying_lawyer_slapped_rDH2jze7X5cOTtBfYh2xRM#ixzz1hnH4o200

    – A Queens lawyer has been suspended for six months for falsely accusing a New Jersey state trooper of using anti-Semitic slurs against him, according to a ruling released yesterday.

    Attorney Elliott Dear said he made up the outrageous allegations in hopes of getting out of a speeding ticket.

    Court papers say the unidentified trooper pulled over Dear, an orthodox Jew, for going 84 in a 55-mph zone while driving with his wife in 2007.

    Six days after getting the ticket, Dear sent a letter to the traffic court saying, “This ticket shall be dismissed immediately” since he wasn’t speeding and “the officer called me a ‘Jew kike’ — and this prejudice obviously was the cause for the ticket,” the papers say.

    The letter was forwarded to Internal Affairs, which contacted Dear, who repeated that he had been the victim of an ethnic slur.

    Unfortunately for Dear — and luckily for the trooper — the traffic stop had been videotaped on the officer’s car camera, and the trooper was wearing a recording device. –

    Two points: firstly, an ethnic slur? If the guy’s DNA had been taken, would the computer have reported ‘jew’ as the racial group of the donor of the sample? Secondly, it’s just as well the cop had recording equipment otherwise he would have been thrown out of his job faster than I can say ‘kol nidre’.

  100. Mahons,

    Very witty—and possibly not parsecs away from the truth.

    And yet, I can’t help thinking that Allan is correct about the Jews as a race. I wonder if they ever were.

    I can’t recall his name at the mo but I read a Jewish author recently who took issue with the word “anti-Semitism”, especially when spelled with a capital S. He contended that “Semitism” doesn’t exist, therefore its antithesis can’t exist either. Some may call this sophistry but it kind of makes the point about Judaism being no more than a creed.

    If true then it has consequences also for Islam. How often do we hear of someone being accused of racism when he attacks Islam? Granted, most of our Muslims here in the UK are of Pakistani or Arab origin but we also have what you chaps would call Caucasian Muslims, albeit very few.

    The fact is that Islam is no more a race than Judaism is.

  101. The Jews are an ethnic group. ” Race ” is a loaded term, best dropped.

    As said numerous times here, Tel Aviv is filled with proud cultural and ethnic Jews, a huge number of which are non religious or actively hostile to ( esp Orthodox ) religious belief and practice.

    It doesn’t follow into the lazy definitions of the Divest / Neo Nazi / Caliphate guys or any of their respective offshoots.

  102. Phantom, if what are considered the Jews of this world are not a race they certainly aren’t an ethnic group either.

    Look, the safest approach here is also the easiest: let everyone decide what he or she wants to be: Irish, American, Italian, Jew, Scot. That takes the definition away from those who try to segregate and either favour or injure certain groups and puts it back where it belongs – with people. Those groups generally exist only in the eyes of the positive or negative racist who needs to categories individauls. Claiming – whether with good intentions or not – that there’s a discrete group called Jews who always have certain characteristics that distinguishes them from the rest of humanity is really only a generation away from Naziism.

    I mean, there are even many Irish people in the north-east of our country who claim they are British and seem to get away with it. If they can do it, so can we all.

  103. I get the whole WWII holocaust sensitivity thing, but can’t we move past this particular guilt trip already?

    No one in my recorded family history ever persecuted or discriminated against Jews, several members fought Hitler, a few never came home. I suspect my experience would apply to most reading David’s site.

    Jews aren’t any more special or deserving of pampered political treatment than I or anyone else and I’m tired of pretending that they are because of the bully neocon sensibilities ruling American politics.

    I wish Israel and Jewish folks well, but I’m damn tired of being poked with an anti-semitic guilty stick if I criticize their faulty grip over my country’s foreign policy debacles in the Middle East or ask why American Hassid, religious fundamentalists we barely tolerate, are allowed to aggressively settle on Palestinian land.

    Truth be told, I’m a little tired of the constant Jewish kvetch.

  104. Daphne,

    I like it: Yiddish in both your opening and closing lines 🙂

    Oh, and I’m with you all the way. Good comment.

  105. Daphne,
    I actually agree with most of your comment. And I also agree that we have to move on. Which means that ergo! we have to accept that a whole bunch of(mad*) people calling themselves Jews, ended up as the focus of the whole FINAL SOLUTION thing, which by and large was traumatic enough to finally convince these mad* people that they would be better off in a poor and neglected part of the Middle East. The rest is as I said before, recorded history.

    That’s the reality. Now anyone but anyone who uses the race/religion card to get out of trouble deserves a kick up the backside -unless they happen to be on our government’s list of approved races and religions – and btw, I doubt Christian white English people will find themselves on that list..

    So let’s set aside all the past, and simply agree that Israel exists and mad* people calling themselves Jews exist.
    Israel does stuff that other people dislike, folk like Allan wade in and say they shouldn’t be there.

    People like Noel wade in and say,
    “Yeah, the Jews never experienced persecution in Europe except by a small but powerful minority, and Jews are as safe in Europe or the US as they are in Israel (and in certain ways of course much safer) – and to suggest that they are not, that they are in danger from the other people there, is ugly fanaticism – the kind of crap that Israeli leaders need to keep their ship afloat. Such people who make such a coddle of them are little better than anti-semites.”

    I am all for keeping things in balance and being even handed in support and criticism.
    I suspect that one of the key things that has caused Jews to be treated differently is that like the (true) Gypsies -not Irish tinker wannabe Gypsies- they wouldn’t assimilate.
    Why ?
    Because of the religion that says they are in a special relationship with God,and God blesses them and punishes them.

    What about the non practicing/non believing Jews?
    Well, they’re no different from Roman Catholics who haven’t got a good word to say about the Pope or the priest or the sacraments, but still turn up on weddings, deaths and special holy days..
    What about the mad* people?
    Well, frankly you’d have had to be mad to sign up as a Jew in Europe..

    So okay, let’s leave the guilt trip, let Allan believe that all those folk are really deluded Christian Europeans who moved to the Middle East, and let’s pretend that Jews made life difficult for themselves in Europe, and were only ever persecuted by a small but powerful minority (aka the Holy Roman Catholic Church).

    Let’s pretend that Catholics are as safe and accepted in Northern Ireland, as they are in the Republic of Ireland, and ditto; Northern Ireland Protestants in the Republic of Ireland as they are in the North.
    That the bombings and the killings were just an expression of neighbourly banter between two different factions of the Christian Church etc.etc. and we’ll go from there. 🙂

  106. Except the fact that the Northern Ireland situation wasn’t a religious conflict but a nationalistic one. An argument that could also be made for the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

  107. D

    The post was about a bunch of creeps who when you dig an inch into it want to exterminate the one and only Jewish state. That’ s a reason to kvetch.

  108. No, they want them to stop occupying other countries. They want them to stop colonising other countries.

  109. The majority of the opposition to Israel (admittedly there are some who oppose it because they are anti-Jewish, in the same way there are those who oppose Labour in the UK for those reasons, or oppose Barack Obama because they are racist) is due to Israeli action in Palestine. If it stopped occupying Palestinian territory, stopped colonising Palestinian territory then the majority of the opposition would stop.

  110. “It becomes a question not over whether or not he did something but whether or not informing one’s superiors and having expectations for them to act is a reasonable excuse for not telling the police.”

    Yes Seamus,
    A dilemma that could be applied to both sides involved in “The Troubles.”
    Especially when kneecapping, beatings, summary executions and intimidatory violence are taken into account..
    Should I say something to the Authorities now..
    or wait ’til my knees heal and I’ve got the hang of t’crutches….. 😉

  111. “If it stopped occupying Palestinian territory, stopped colonising Palestinian territory then the majority of the opposition would stop.”
    Not if Allan had anything to do with it.
    He would want those deluded Europeans repatriated to .. to..
    well anyway, he would want them back in Europe.

  112. “Pretty sure that was in a different thread.”

    Pretty sure the logic is the same.

  113. Not really. The majority of the reasons that people didn’t tell the police about incidents were for three reasons. Firstly, the Police couldn’t be trusted. Secondly, a large amount of the people were in favour of many of the actions that those groups committed. You aren’t going to find that many people crying over the fact that a joyrider getting kneecapped, especially as the Police wouldn’t have done anything anyway. Lastly, undoubtedly, people would have feared retribution if they had gone to the police.

  114. “He would want those deluded Europeans repatriated to .. to..
    well anyway, he would want them back in Europe.”

    No, he wouldn’t. He wants them all to stay is Israel and be followed there by their co-religionists from Europe. He has said so.

    That is one idea – and there are several others – he shares with the current Israeli government, which is prepared to go to some bizarre lengths to gather enough Jews into Israel and the West Bank to offset any natural population growth among Palestinians, and then of couse to grab more Palestinian land to house them on.

    I really think it’s time for a comedy to be written.

  115. Seamus,
    You seem to comment at funny hours, is all. Actually though I do remember now that you said you were a student.
    It isn’t different.
    What has changed is that people are no longer afraid of the Catholic Church and what it could threaten you with.
    In the past, nobody thought it was a good idea to cross the Priest. Now, through bitter experience, nobody thinks it’s a good idea to cross the men with guns, baseball bats and masks..

  116. “be followed there by their co-religionists”

    What co religionists would they be Noel? He believes that the original Jews have died out, hence those now calling themselves Jews have no connection with the land of “Far Far Away.”
    I have argued this point with him several times over the last year and more. Recently saying that if his theory is true, Hitler made a mistake in putting his Final Solution into practice, as obviously tgere were no true Jews left..
    Then you would also have to say that all those people who made their way (for whatever reason) to Northern Ireland have no input into, or are no cause for the hostility presently experienced there.. 🙂

  117. //What co religionists would they be Noel? He believes that the original Jews have died out,//

    Dunno. He probably means those who consider themselves Jews and see themselves as part of the gang. I wouldn’t worry the point so much, if I were you.

  118. I think Allan was not originally in favour od the Jewish state being set up in the land where it now is, but he accepts the state of Israel should remain in existence now. While his constant and relentless searching out of obscure religous texts ‘justifying’ supposed Jewish mendacity towards gentiles demonstrates a genuine streak of ant-semitism, I think Allan’s real bugbear is a paranoia about a poweful cult of world leaders who are constantly seeking to cause and then profit from misery and chaos and cultural disintegration and who often accurately or not project a Jewish identity as a shield to deflect criticism or exposure. I don’t think I have heard Allan say that he wants the rest of the Jewish population to be exported to Israel.

  119. Noel,
    I wouldn’t worry the point so much if people realised that Allan’s arguments/theories are not just wacky, they are downright evil in trivialising what happened to an awful lot of people within living memory.
    It is as loathsome as those who fail to recognise the humanity of all the victims of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland.
    We are where we are, and history cannot be undone.

    Jewishness is first and foremost a religion and secondly a culture(s), that had its origin and roots in an area and places of the Middle East still identifiable today; and to which the descendents of those original people have, in an amazing turn of events, returned.
    That’s where we are.

  120. Reminds me of the old joke about the elderly Jewish man knocked down by a Rolls as he was crossing the road.
    The driver jumps out of the car with a coat and blanket, places coat under the old man’s
    head and covers him with the blanket. All the time he’s saying how sorry he is and that he didn’t see him..
    “Enough, enough already!” says the old boy.
    “But Sir, are you comfortable?”
    The old man looks at him and then at the bumper of the Rolls and says,

    “Well not as comfortable as you, but….
    I make a living..”

  121. Noel,
    “Jews generally prospered, increased in both numbers and wealth, over those 2000 years. They usually had the ear of the Emperor, local lords and – above all – the bishops and the higher Catholic clergy. They were allowed mint their own coin, and the value of Jewish coinage at the time (one of the only currencies that was legal tender uniformly troughout Europe) is testimony to their commercial success.”
    I’ve talked to some of my friends and can’t find any reference to your comment above.
    So I have googled it, and the closest I could find was this one..

    http://www.heretical.com/British/jews1290.html

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