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BELFAST – THE NATIONALIST CITY…

By David Vance On June 4th, 2012

In a way, Unionists have only themselves to blame for this;

Belfast City Council is set to back a plan that the Union flag should fly over the City Hall only on designated days — ending a century of tradition. The controversial issue — which will be the subject of a 16-week public consultation from June 6 — will ultimately be decided in a crunch vote by councillors on November 1.

While unionist politicians have indicated their opposition to the change of policy, there is quiet acceptance that they would lose out in the vote and the flag that has flown over City Hall since it opened its door in 1906 will come down on most days of the year. The council met last night and backed the plans to begin a public consultation. The issue was the subject of a draft independent report which recommended that the Union flag only be flown on certain days of the year, such as the Queen’s birthday, to promote good relations. A proposal that the Irish tricolour be flown alongside the Union flag was rejected as the least favourable option.

OK, here’s my view. I think that the Union Flag should be flown in line with how it is flown elsewhere in the UK, no more and no less. Vichy Unionism also has little to complain about and the usual culprits will wring their hands over this victory to Irish Nationalism. But there is another aspect to this. Belfast suffers chronic unemployment, commercial meltdown and a lack of investment. WHY are all these bozos in City Hall playing this stupid game instead of focusing on real issues? As a Belfast ratepayer, I regret paying them so much as one penny if THIS is all they can do.

My grandmother taught me that “you can’t eat flags”. She was right.

109 Responses to “BELFAST – THE NATIONALIST CITY…”

  1. I personally blame Alliance. Their policies on same-sex marriage….conflict with my choice of lifestyle.

  2. Flags, ideally, are agreed symbols of unity. Where there is no unity a flag can represent oppression of one tradition over the other. That is what the flag over the City Hall always represented in Belfast. “Our flag our city croppies lie down”

    My flag, the Irish tricolour, is one I would never want to see used as a symbol of dominance or oppression.

  3. CB

    I personally blame Alliance. Their policies on same-sex marriage….conflict with my choice of lifestyle.

    If they favour making it compulsory then you certainly have a point.

  4. How is it Nationalist to fly the Union Jack only part of the time instead of the entire time?

  5. How is it Nationalist to fly the Union Jack only part of the time instead of the entire time?

    ‘cos D.Vance said so

  6. Ah Charles,

    Now I recognise you, bye!

  7. who am i so?

  8. David,

    But there is another aspect to this. Belfast suffers chronic unemployment, commercial meltdown and a lack of investment. WHY are all these bozos in City Hall playing this stupid game instead of focusing on real issues? As a Belfast ratepayer, I regret paying them so much as one penny if THIS is all they can do.

    Quite right. And your words echo eerily those of that highly respected humanitarian, Bob Holman. He writes: “… the poor are getting poorer, the unemployed more numerous, the gap between those at the bottom and those at the top wider.”

    Except that his beef concerns flags only marginally. He’s disturbed by the wasteful extravaganza that is Herr Madge’s Jubiläumsfest:

    The royals possess enormous riches. The queen’s personal fortune is estimated at £310m, plus possessions valued in billions. The state supports her with an annual £32m. Yet at the very time her jubilee is being celebrated at huge cost, the poor are getting poorer, the unemployed more numerous, the gap between those at the bottom and those at the top wider. Every week, the Trussell Trust opens more centres to distribute food parcels. I have met several families who can no longer afford to send their children on holiday.

    That said, don’t you feel that harmony is important in your society? I have nothing against flags but do feel that your situation is different from, say, the USA. The Stars and Bars are not divisive; the Union Jack can be. So why not, for the sake of good community relations, fly the flag less frequently?

    A tradition would end? Well, we used to have a tradition for centuries whereby we had public hangings outside Newgate Prison. They drew crowds of delighted people. But some spoilsport put a stop to this fine tradition in 1868. Now, I know a couple of Colonel Blimps but have yet to hear one calling for the return of public air-dancing.

  9. The Stars and Stripes aren’t divisive. The Stars and Bars sure as hell can be.

  10. The Union flag should be flown exactly as it is throughout the rest of the UK.

    Nationalists are showing yet more intolerance, and ignoring democratic opinion.

    As for the tricolour, apart from the Irish Embassy, it has no place in this part of the UK, the same as any other flag, but admittedly more so as it has draped the coffins of republican murderers.

  11. Seamus,

    I meant the Stars and Stripes. I simply like the rhyme of the other 🙂

    Logical Unionist,

    “The Union flag should be flown exactly as it is throughout the rest of the UK.”

    Northern Ireland isn’t exactly like the rest of the UK, is it?

    But do try to see things from the other fellow’s pov. If you know that half your fellow-citizens don’t like the Union Flag, why fly it in their faces? Spite? To upset them? And to what end, the inflation of your ego or self-esteem? Don’t you value harmony in society?

    “Nationalists are showing yet more intolerance, and ignoring democratic opinion.”

    And you of course are a paragon of tolerance—and fully aware of the meaning of “democratic”.

    “As for the tricolour, apart from the Irish Embassy, it has no place in this part of the UK”

    Agreed. And I understand from David’s post that your sensibilities won’t be affronted by the sight of its fluttering from a flagstaff near you.

  12. Logical Unionist has his union jack underwear in a knot cos he sat on his favourite bowler hat the other day lol

  13. Northern Ireland is only different because a minority are intolerant and resort to violence to force their opinions down the throat of the majority.
    It is morally wrong and undemocratic.

    I would be affronted to see the tricolour fluttering anywhere except on an Irish building, like either the residence of the ambassador, or the embassy.

    ‘If you know that half your fellow-citizens don’t like the Union Flag, why fly it in their faces? Spite? To upset them? And to what end, the inflation of your ego or self-esteem? Don’t you value harmony in society?’

    Nothing to do with any of that. Simply, this is the UK, this is what the majority of citizens want, and until that changes, then deal with it.

    Harmony in society is down to tolerance and respecting democracy.

    Sooner nationalists understand this, the better.

  14. Charles, I have neither, but I do have a beautiful Union Flag, which I display with pride.

  15. “Harmony in society is down to tolerance and respecting democracy.”

    Except that Unionists want to force their flag down people’s throats while being affronted if we even have the gall to fly our flag. Hardly tolerant is it?

  16. It is democratic, and it is not OUR flag.
    It is the flag of the nation we live in.
    The majority of people in NI want to remain in the UK.

    Quite simple.

    If you want to fly the flag of the free state, then I suggest go and live there or wait until the rest of this country support your wishes through democratic means.

  17. It is a British/Unionist flag, representative of the British/Unionist state and representative of the British/Unionist community.

    Additionally this decision is being taken by the democratically elected representatives of the people of Belfast so how is not democratic?

    Also considering Northern Ireland was created by a minority who are intolerant and resorted to violence and the threat of violence to force their opinions down the throat of the majority I honestly don’t care what you think about democracy or not.

  18. Logical Unionist,

    The more you argue your case, the more I understand why Northern Ireland imploded and mayhem resulted.

    And it gives me no pleasure to say that I surmised correctly: you have no idea what democracy means.

  19. Democracy to me means a big bowl of strawberries and being eaten by a disheveled Jesus look-a-like.

  20. Charles,

    Er, why would a Jesus look-alike wish to eat you?

    (I’m assuming there’s no hidden homo-erotic codification involved ;))

  21. The Belfast Telegraph is a rag, every other week they role with a flag or national anthem story to stir things up.

  22. Don’t fly any Italian flags either,might upset that nutjob from Markethill

  23. Seamus, I wouldn’t expect you to care or understand, as you are yourself a voter of the ira, so I do not really think anything I can even attempt to educate you with will make a difference, as for decades it is a case of, ‘our way, or we will kill you.’

    The fact remains, democracy is defined by following the wishes of a majority.
    The majority of citizens wish to remain in the UK, so all of the uk will fly the UK flag as per normal. It really isn’t that difficult.
    Unless of course you are a republican who will still never accept democracy and the will of the people.
    Imagine? lol

    Richard Clinton, democracy is a basic fundamental right.

    Ten people in a room, if 6 people vote for something, then that decision is carried. Unless of course, yet again, you cannot accept that and resort to mass murder to persuade the six that somehow your way makes more sense.

  24. And the majority of citizens of Belfast have voted for representatives who wish to take the Union Jack down.

    And if democracy was always followed Northern Ireland wouldn’t even exist.

  25. Seamus it is the union flag, as it is on land.

    Secondly, I am glad that the people you vote for didn’t succeed in blowing up the city hall and permanently destroying the city of Belfast.

    Thirdly, Northern Ireland does exist, and a majority of its citizens wish to remain within the UK, as opposed to joining a bankrupt and basket case of the free state who cannot afford to subsidise NI, after they armed and financed the IRA and their bombing campaign.

    Karma is apt and just.

    ps your last sentence exposes the absolute absence of any moral platform you seek.

  26. Except that it doesn’t. Unionists only like democracy when they win the vote. Unionists only respect democracy win people vote for people they like. Where was Unionist support for democracy when they formed terrorist organisations in 1913? Where was Unionist support for democracy when they gerrymandered boundaries? Where was Unionist support for democracy when they changed the electoral system to lower representation for Nationalists and non-Unionists?

    And where is Unionist support for democracy when democratically elected representatives decide to remove the Union Jack on all but designated days?

  27. Seamus.

    The UK exists, NI exists.

    The majority wish it to remain.

    Get it?

    Now, move on from 19 whatever and embrace the shared future your lying yellow reps so constantly lie about.

  28. You are the one crying your lamps out about democracy in a post complaining about people reaching a democratic decision.

  29. No tears here sunshine, just an acceptance of the democratic wishes of this part of the UK.

    Your ‘heroes’ who have been responsible for blowing up most of the city of Belfast deserve to be in jail, not receiving support and especially not electoral support, but as sick as that is, it is your choice and your legacy to deal with as they stamp on the innocent victims’ graves.

    btw, the vote hasn’t been taken yet, it is in September, so your assertions are as usual, off the mark.

    Try again…

  30. And on top of this;http://www.midulstermail.co.uk/news/local/uup-tricolour-flower-arrangement-sparks-row-1-3908129 too.

    I do despair for Our Wee Country

  31. It is a case of smaller gerrymandering than the original gerrymandering. It also keeps the citizens minds off of more pressing issues.

  32. Logical Unionist,

    I surmised correctly. You do not quite grasp what the democracy entails. Here’s a short primer that should help you with first principles.

    And a short extract from same:

    Democracy Requires Minority Rights

    Yet majority rule can not be the only expression of “supreme power” in a democracy. If so, as Tocqueville notes … the majority would too easily tyrannize the minority. Thus, while it is clear that democracy must guarantee the expression of the popular will through majority rule, it is equally clear that it must guarantee that the majority will not abuse use [sic] its power to violate the basic and inalienable rights of the minority.

    Do come back to me when you’ve boned up on that, all right?

  33. Richard save your breath uninists have no understanding of democracy. It was unionists who introduced the gun into modern irish politics because they would not accept the democratic will of the voters.

  34. ”Thus, while it is clear that democracy must guarantee the expression of the popular will through majority rule, it is equally clear that it must guarantee that the majority will not abuse use [sic] its power to violate the basic and inalienable rights of the minority.”

    Quite easy to grasp dear boy.

    It is CLEAR that the expression of the popular must be guaranteed. Thanks you made my point for me.

    I hope you can respect your own definition and guarantee the expression of our unquestionable nationality and until such times as citizens vote otherwise.

    Also, nowhere else in any democratic country would a minority usurp the majority’s wishes and fly a foreign flag.
    Next!

  35. submariner, I think if you go back you can perhaps educate yourself that it was republicans before the turn of the twentieth century who had armed and were already steeped in the wanton violence we are all too used to.

  36. Submariner62,

    Yes, I appreciate that my virtual breath is wasted on our Logical Onionist. If he can’t even be arsed to read a small page I link to then no more needs to be said.

    On the plus side, I know many Ulstermen and am glad to say that none displays the twisted bitterness of our friend. We can but hope they’re a dying breed.

  37. Richard, a rather poor attempt at trying to turn the bitterness of your community back onto someone who is logically opposed to undemocratic policy and the rewarding of terrorists.
    I looked at your link, and unfortunately for you, it only reinforced my point.
    It is quite simple.
    This is the UK.
    The UK’s national flag flies on capital cities throughout the UK. (If you were watching last night’s concert, you might have seen a few of them being waved)
    Belfast should be treated exactly the same as any other regional city in the UK. The minority who object to flying the Union Flag is really a lot smaller than you would think, as in the assessment, a majority of vistors even said they were in favour of it flying.

    Democracy is obeying and following the wishes of the majority. As usual, you and your ilk ignore this as you have done for many years.
    More and more catholics I am glad to say see the benefits of remaining in the UK, as they watch with growing discomfort the free state going down the tubes.

    As for being a dying breed, despite your ‘heroes’ best efforts I am still here, and will be for a long time and will never support terrorism or it’s blatant attempts at ethnically cleansing anything British from this part of the UK.
    I understand you may not like it, but more citizens are in agreement with myself, and that is what constitutes democracy.

  38. Submariner64,

    See what I mean? The chap hasn’t even the wit to understand that I’m England-born and British to the core. No doubt he, in contrast, is an Ulster-born Irish soldier laddie with pretensions to Britishness.

    Not only has he difficulties with understanding democracy, blog comments written in plain English seem to go above his head.

  39. Oh dear Richard, that is very unbecoming of you.
    You make assumptions and fall into my little trap like so many others.
    ‘No doubt he, in contrast, is an Ulster-born Irish soldier laddie with pretensions to Britishness.’
    No doubt about it, you are wrong.
    (again, bit of a pattern emerging here)
    I have tried to educate you on here on a few occasions but it seems you are not capable of disseminating relevant information and applying logic to a very simple but underlying complex problem.
    The people have spoken in NI, so obey the democratic wishes, and move along now…there’s a good boy.

  40. LU,

    You don’t get it, do you? You Ulstermen are an embarrassment to us. We’ve poured money and manpower into your province, hoping you could put away your small-mindedness and bitterness and develop some respect for your fellows.

    It worked to some extent. You have an Assembly now, and peace. Cherish them. Next time you come begging you may find that our patience has been exhausted.

    That said, I wish your people well 😉

  41. You Ulstermen?

    An embarassment?

    The most loyal subjects in the UK, even after your English politicans betrayed us time after time, and continue to show themselves in an extremely poor light.
    I think it is YOU who doesn’t get it. Unionists have in my lifetime wanted to ‘get on’ with our neighbours, but our neighbours decided they would not accept the will of the people and embarked on a murderous and barbaric crusade against all citizens of NI, incidentally, killing more catholics than anyone else.
    The small mindedness and bitterness continues unfortunately from republicans, as we witnessed yesterday in Londonderry they cannot even tolerate the olympic torch.
    It is sad to observe the depths of their bigotry.

    The real embarassment was the likes of Phoney Bliar and others appeasing mass murderers and showing their true lack of any spine, or courage.

    In closing, I will take the positive from your post in that you wish the people of this part of the UK well.

    I cordially reciprocate the sentiment to you and yours.

  42. Who cares?

    I think in a lot of cases in NI, flags are flown from wherever to piss off the other side. The problem is when it isn’t and is genuinely flown as a source of pride, it can still be seen as being put there to annoy.

    I would love to fly the tricolour from my parents’ gaff to support the RoI soccer team but it just isn’t the done thing (even though the chances of it offending anyone in my home town are pretty much nil).

    Logical Unionist,

    “Northern Ireland IS ONLY DIFFERENT because a minority are intolerant and resort to violence to force their opinions down the throat of the majority.
    It is morally wrong and undemocratic.”

    Replace “IS ONLY DIFFERENT” with “ONLY EXISTS” and you have my point of view.

  43. NI exists because a majority of its citizens support that view.

    Again, that is democracy.

  44. NI exists because a majority of its citizens support that view.
    Again, that is democracy.

    That’s a circular argument. Ulster has a nationalist majority so three counties were left out of the calculation. Four of the remaining six counties have nationalist majorities. Northern Ireland was created through terrorism by the UVF. The Ulster will fight” brigade blackmailed the British government.

    There is no logical democratic or demographic basis for the NI state as it exists. It was established by violence and in the end exists because of the willingness of the British state to occupy it.

  45. Nope, it is gerrymandering.

    It was interesting to see the flag situation when I was up home at the weekend. Nary a Union Flag to be seen from Newry to Downpatrick (just over a 30 mile journey) apart from Clough where the bunting was a-plenty. Fair enough, they were probably having a street party. But just an example that flags are still very important to people and the existence or absence thereof is noticable in NI.

  46. Henry, nobody mentioned ‘Ulster’, I was specifically talking about Northern Ireland, and if you want to pursue the argument of who voted for what; the rest of the UK were not invited to have their view. If they had and voted to retain all of Ireland, than are you seriously suggesting that the Irish rebels would accept it and saunter off to the pub?
    The only people who blackmailed the British Government were the failures in 1916 who, when most decent citizens were fighting for King and country, decided to launch their cowardly attack.
    As for your last comment, I can only pity you, rather than laugh.
    NI exists as it will continue to whilst a majority of its citizens want it to. Simple.
    Mourne Reg, anything and everything is ‘gerrymandering’ when it doesn’t suit nationalists it seems.
    Your journey back home from Newry from Downpatrick – its no surprise to read about the absence of any union flags, (ie, our national flag), as nationalists will not tolerate or accept the will of the majority.
    In other words; DEMOCRACY.

  47. //Also, nowhere else in any democratic country would a minority usurp the majority’s wishes and fly a foreign flag. //

    //NI exists because a majority of its citizens support that view.//

    LU, Northern Ireland exists simply because “a minority usurped the majority’s wishes and flew a foreign flag”.

    If they had followed the wishes of the majority – a principle that seems to apply only when it benefits you – the state and the whole sorry mess wouldn’t have emerged in the first place, nor would the Troubles, and those thousands of good Unionist, Nationalist and British people would perhaps still be walking among us.

    //Democracy is obeying and following the wishes of the majority//

    But the majority voted for the Belfast Agreement and the peace and reconciliation that it brings; they also endorsed at every subseqeunt election the Unionist and Nationalist parties that wish to share power, including with SF/IRA.
    Yet you’re still not following them??

  48. Noel,
    I oppose the elevation of sfira by democratic means, the exact opposite to the methods they followed to gain power in this part of the United Kingdom.

    As to usurping the majority, I am afraid you are quite wrong. The UK of Great Britain and Ireland as it was then would have been in favour of keeping all of Ireland. They didn’t get the vote, as violent republicans, (as usual) made that impossible and they were appeased with the free state and NI being created and remaining within the UK. (BTW, I am sure many irish wish they had stayed back then as they look around what is left of their economy)
    The majority did indeed vote for the Belfast Agreement. I didn’t, – but here is the difference; I ACCEPT their decision, without reverting to armed terrorism.
    Nationalists cannot have it both ways.
    Either accept democratic outcomes, or oppose them through the ballot box.
    Until a majority vote otherwise, NI exists, and is a component part of the UK, and as such, the inhabitants deserve the same level of equal citizenship as the rest of our counterparts.
    Flying our flag in our capital city is one of many that should be afforded and respected.

  49. //The UK of Great Britain and Ireland as it was then would have been in favour of keeping all of Ireland. They didn’t get the vote, as violent republicans, (as usual) made that impossible //

    LU, don’t be ridiculous. The Home Rule Act had been passed well before 1916. Ireland was ruled as a separate, but single, entity, and naturally only the people of Ireland got to decide on their future.

    Basically, Northern Ireland was a democratic stitch-up from the start. It all revolved around the question of what kind of entity, and within what borders, should decide on its future, and talks dragged on for years.
    Ulster was proposed as a basic unit, until it was pointed out that the province had a Nationalist majority. Then it was proposed that decisions be made on the county and local government unit level, until it was pointed out that Fermanagh and Tyrone and the city of Derry had already returned Nationalist MPs / councils etc.

    The Unionist solution was to take as much of the territory as possible while retaining a majority in the whole. The British of course were behind Unionists and gave them the carving knife.
    Thus Nationalist Tyrone, Fermanagh and Derry city went to NI despite the express wish of their people, and there was a large Nationalist minority that had been denied its democratic rights and that would in time, inevitably, try to get them back by force.

    Unionists can claim their heritage and the power of money and connections, and that ultimately might is right, but let’s hear no more from you about democracy, please.

  50. ‘Ireland was ruled as a separate, but single, entity, and naturally only the people of Ireland got to decide on their future.’

    Same as NI today then, as both Ireland back then and NI today were/are ruled within the United Kingdom.

    ‘and naturally only the people of Ireland got to decide on their future.’

    Thanks Noel, you make my point well for me.

    The people of NI only will decide our future,exactly the same principle you espoused above for Ireland; and so far, they are in favour of remaining in the UK.

    Thanks again.

  51. I think “Logical Unionist” is an ironic moniker!

    “Mourne Reg, anything and everything is ‘gerrymandering’ when it doesn’t suit nationalists it seems.”

    Nope.

    “…its no surprise to read about the absence of any union flags, (ie, our national flag), as nationalists will not tolerate or accept the will of the majority.”

    But is it not the “will of the majority” in that area that means there are no such flags? Does “majority rule” only count for you when it is in your favour?

  52. The will of the majority in this part of the UK, exactly the same principle put forward and used by Noel above.

    Simple.

    NI’s citizens will decide whether we stay in the UK, and as they already have overwhelmingly and furthermore, said there should be no change without the consent of the people of NI, then we should have the same rights as the rest of the UK.

    Logical…

  53. //Same as NI today then, as both Ireland back then and NI today were/are ruled within the United Kingdom//

    LU, the six counties that were to make up NI had no democratic or moral right to secede from the Free State and the provisions of the Govt of Ireland Act that the counties of Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry, and in fact the larger part of the territory of NI, do not have today to secede from Northern Ireland.

  54. NI was created as a result of a deal, (a deal which could be argued back using your position) that the free state had no moral right or democratic right to leave the uk either, nor acquiesce to both that, and the allocation of NI to stay behind.

    Accept it and move out of the shadows of the past and embrace the country and the UK as a whole.

    Your comment is as a matter of fact redundant; as the Government of Ireland act is repealed and has been since 1998.

    NI is accepted in International law as a constitute part of the UK, and nothing you or others say will change that reality.

    Until a majority vote to change that status, you might as well whistle in the wind for all the change it will make.

    However, when you do, maybe change the tune after all these years?! lol

  55. This is one of those issues where no one with strong opinions changes their mind.

    So, how about them Mets?

  56. //Your comment is as a matter of fact redundant; as the Government of Ireland act is repealed and has been since 1998.//

    //Accept it and move out of the shadows of the past //

    I think you were talking about 1916 before I even joined the conversation.
    And my point stands: Ulster Unionists decided that they could – by virtue of their majority in a particular part of Ireland – opt out of the Free State, while of course taking along with them into NI large areas where the people had clearly showed their allegience to Dail Eireann.

    The result was a disenfranchised community that inevitably tried to win by violence what had been denied them despite their democratic choice.
    This in turn led to over 3K dead.

    However, the happy ending is that it also led to the end of Unionist rule forever, and the consolation of seeing No-sayers who refused to countenance Gerry Fitt now having to accept a Gerry of an altogether different colour and an IRA Chief of Staff as Deputy Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.

    So Karma is perhaps apt and just after all.

    //NI was created as a result of a deal, that the free state had no moral right or democratic right to leave the uk either, nor acquiesce to both that, and the allocation of NI to stay behind.//

    That’s not logical, nor factual nor even grammatical! 🙂

    The Free State was a deal that was, at least from the British p.o.v., very democratic. Also NI did not “stay behind”, it opted out of the Govt of Ireland Act that was made for all of Ireland.

  57. So Karma is perhaps apt and just after all.

    Indeed!

  58. David: “My grandmother taught me that “you can’t eat flags”. She was right.”

    She most certainly was.

  59. Noel, first of all, I am talking about present day NI.

    Whatever was agreed before is done and will not change, unless the citizens vote for it.

    U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?

    ‘And my point stands: Ulster Unionists decided that they could – by virtue of their majority in a particular part of Ireland – opt out of the Free State, while of course taking along with them into NI large areas where the people had clearly showed their allegience to Dail Eireann.’

    NO, it doesn’t. There was no vote for that, and there was no vote to do the opposite.

    There is NO EXCUSE for resorting to violence after your elected representatives have agreed a deal, this is after all the very basis of democracy, as I have outlined before.

    Noel you and others steeped in the past have to MOVE ON.

    Terrorism is a thing of the past.

    This is 2012, we are the United Kingdom, created and agreed by democratically elected politicans.

    If you can look up from your blinkers you will see a vibrant NI, within the UK and with republicans accepting that the will of the people have said we stay this way.

    I only wish you and others will cast aside your reluctance and join me in a toast to OUR MAJESTY.

    GOD BLESS HER.

  60. “There is NO EXCUSE for resorting to violence after your elected representatives have agreed a deal, this is after all the very basis of democracy, as I have outlined before.”

    Fair enough, and if Unionists had played fair after 1922, then who knows what the outcome would have been? But they didn’t.

    Unionism has only itself to blame for what happened.

  61. Also Noel, the Gov of Ire act made specific requirements for NI, so you are talking even more nonsense.

    NI didn ot ‘opt out’, the gov of ire act was for guess who? All of Ire under the UK.

    Sect 75, was exclusively written for the Northern Ireland state after the deal was done with elcted reps.

    DEMOCRACY again! Who would believe it! lol

    Specifically that even in the event of the rest of ire wanting to claim back NI, the British gov were under no obligation to accede to that wish.

    Education, education, education…

    Sometimes it is better to stop digging, but I think you should carry on, it does give me great pleasure to correct your uninformed opinions.

  62. Matt,

    ‘Fair enough, and if Unionists had played fair after 1922, then who knows what the outcome would have been? But they didn’t.’
    This is 2012.
    I thought we were moving on?
    There is NO argument worth killing someone for in my opinion.

    Unionism have no blame for the intolerance and republican insistence that they would not accept DEMOCRACY.

    As the deal was reached by DEMOCRATICALLY elected reps and agreed, then what is the justification for mass murder?

    Look forward to your answers…

  63. Matt,

    whilst you are at it, please tell me one single thing I had that you didn’t as a unionist.

    You CANNOT…

  64. “Unionism have no blame for the intolerance and republican insistence that they would not accept DEMOCRACY”

    Its impossible to move on from any situation if one party steadfastly refuses to even contemplate that they did anything wrong.

    For a Unionist to label others as intolerant with a straight face defies belief. And if by DEMOCRACY you mean that practiced by Unionism from 1922 onwards, then why should the minority have accepted it?

  65. Matt,

    again; what did I have that you didn’t?

    secondly; as I was born after 1922, how can I be blamed for anything?

    Thirdly; the minority should accept it, as the majority vote dictates, as in the rest of the world, OBVIOUSLY, as DEMOCRACY is exercised.

    Simple.

    Democratic solutions are reached by the majority and agreed upon. If you go against it and not accept it and revert to murdering our citizens, then anyone supporting it is as bad as the blaggards who execute the dastardly action.

    Maybe take a minute to reflect on that…

  66. “whilst you are at it, please tell me one single thing I had that you didn’t as a unionist.”

    An equal vote.

    “Thirdly; the minority should accept it, as the majority vote dictates, as in the rest of the world, OBVIOUSLY, as DEMOCRACY is exercised.”

    Take you orange-tinted spectacles off! As I posted earlier, if Unionism had played fair (you are not actually going to argue that it did are you because if you are then there is no point in continuing), then who knows?

  67. An equal vote?

    When did I have an unequal vote? My parents were not home owners like you, so I had no vote either, but my family did not resort to armed violence, nor did we support anything of the sort.

    ‘Unionism played fair’.

    Matt, you are in a nowhere position.

    Unionism followed the democratic agreement of the free state leaving the UK.

    If you and others didn’t like it, you simply follow democratic means to support your objections.

    If you resort to terrorism, you deserve the full weight of the law upon you, as is in the rest of the world.

    ps, I am not orange, nor a protestant, so let’s leave the pigeon holing behind please. I am an academic, a former soldier and a writer, and of course as my nom de plume identifies me as a proud Unionist.

  68. “Unionism followed the democratic agreement of the free state leaving the UK.”

    So this agreement included provisions for gerrymandering, a rigged electoral system, discrimination in the workplace and in access to housing, a sectarian Police Force etc, etc? Well I never knew that but as you are an “academic” then you must know more than me!

    As regards Democratic protest, look what happened with the Civil Rights marches.

    Show some humility.

  69. Matt,

    whatever it did in the PAST, it was AGREED by DEMOCRATICALLY elected reps.

    Understand?

    Therefore, accept it and move on.

    Unless of course…;(

    Rigged electoral system my backside. We had nothing and probably less than nationalists in working class unionist areas.

    The RUC are still unequalled as an anti terrorist force, set between communities, but of course, the brainwashing of nationalist/catholc communities counts for more above any logic.

    Present day,… I wonder where you and the civil rights campaigners where, when only as recent as last week a recent survey showed that there has been certain bias against the protestant population in gaining employment?

    Do you think this is correct?

    Why didn’t the catholics complain?

    eh? oh, I see…only when it suits as usual.

    If the protestants went to armed violence, would you support them and their right like you try and justify the unjustifiable in the sixties?

    Your community did both.

    Hypocrites of the highest (lowest) order.

  70. LU we will take no lectures about democracy from Unionists.It was your community that formed the first terrorist grouping in modern Irish politics.It was your community that refused to abide by the democratic will of the voters in 1918. It was your community that set up and ran a sectarian grubby little state-let which amounted to a one party dictatorship. It was your community that caused the first explosions of the present troubles. It was your community that murdered the first civilians in the present troubles. It was your community that murdered the first policeman of the present troubles. It was your community that specialized in sectarian murder with more than 85%of the killings carried out by your community were of innocent civilians. It is your community that attacked the Police and your so called armed forces at Drumcree and would not except the rule of law.It is your community that voted terrorists in the mayor and deputy mayors chair in Belfast whilst their terrorist colleagues were still murdering all round them And it is your community that comes out en mass every year to watch a bunch of knuckle dragging bigots in bowler hats accompanied by loyalist terrorists terrorists goose stepping all over the place. So we will take no lectures from Unionist about democracy and the rule of law.

  71. Nope, complete blx.

    Your community in the late 1800’s were armed and involved in violence, a trait that carried on.

    And on.

    And on.

    Democracy is quite simple.

    The majority decide.

    As in the case or the free state being created it was decided by democratically elected reps; as was everything else.

    At no time is it morally correct to resort to violence to try to enforce a failed doctrine.

    It is simple.

    Now, I raise my glass to Her Majesty and long may she reign over ALL of the UK, and ESPECIALLY NORTHERN IRELAND.

    I hope your community can appreciate all we have done and tried to educate your bigoted, twisted and intolerant individuals who vote and support mass murderers.

    SICK.

    LADIES AND GENTLEMEN;

    THE QUEEN!

  72. The host of this site has the humility to acknowledge Unionist mistakes. I may disagree with a lot of his opinions but I respect him.

    Submariner62 – I love your rant. He’ll just ignore it. It doesn’t suit his agenda.

  73. Matt,

    I personally cannot be held responsible for anything other than obeying democracy.

    You and yours follow and support mass murderers.

    You must be sooooo proud.

    as for submariner, a pig and a grunt…ignorance is bliss, enjoy your wallowing in your aptly predetermined written faeces, like your weight watchers champions of ’81.

  74. Logical Unionist

    Your last post shows your true colours. Got under your skin have we? The truth hurts doesn’t it? I have to assume you were being ironic when you created your nom de plume. Might I suggest you call yourself Deluded Unionist instead!

    David, this creature is lowering the tone of an otherwise wonderful site.

    Nighty Night!

  75. LU for your info im a life long supporter of the SDLP you know the party with no links to terrorists unlike both the Unionist parties. As for my last post would you care to point out my errors.

  76. Ha, Matt, not at all…
    I have thoroughly enjoyed the holiday for our Queen, and have admired Her elegant performance and the glow of admiration worldwide for an enviable Monarch.

    Matt, the absence of any logic to your postings only exposes your lack of education of constitutional politics and most pertinently, logic itself.

    The rather inane attempt on my ‘logical unionist’ moniker is tiresome and so not original; however, I expect this from desperate unintelligent individuals who have been sent scurrying off after being exposed as such.

  77. Sub,

    no links?

    Don’t think so…

    Hume /Adams talks?

    there is the first.

    I do not have the time to type so much to show you the errors of your ignorance as I am on my phone and enjoying OUR QUEEN and the celebrations.

  78. Are you that wanker Andrew Mc Cann in disguise.

  79. Pig and a grunt couldn’t be more apt.

    However, I will sidestep your ignorance and the best efforts of the weight watcher champions of 81 and the wonky eyed hume and his mate adams, and raise another glass for the Queen!

    Ladies and gentlemen;

    THE QUEEN!

    😉

  80. BELFAST – THE NATIONALIST CITY…

    Yes it is David, with twenty four Nationalist outnumbering the twenty one unionist councillors and the Alliance Party King makers with six seats.

    Things have come a long way at Belfast City Council from the Ulaster Says No days.

  81. And how many ira men and women have your bitter and immoral community voted for?

    disgusting…

  82. Ah, reverting to the default position? Good.

    You’d best get used to that disguat ‘cos it’s not changing anytime soon.

    The future is Catholic, the future is female. Remember that headline from a few months ago? We are talking about the rise of a Catholic Majority in the North that will be agnostic on the constitutional question, but who will be seeking outlets for their cultural identity in almost every sphere

    How’s that democratic majority thing doing now? 🙂

  83. Paul, do not know what it is you are trying to say dear boy.

    Don’t you know an increasing number of catholics are in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom?

    Your sectarian headcount no longer holds any weight as more of the brainwashed ‘oirish’ emerge into the light and see what is happening to the free state and thank the lord and Her Majesty the Queen for the United Kingdom.

    The democratic ‘thing’ is swinging along nicely as is the loving worldwide opinion on our glorious Queen reaching new heights.

    It is truly glorious.

    The Queen!

  84. Don’t you know an increasing number of catholics are in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom?

    That doesn’t annoy me in the slightest, (if it’s true), although I’ve yet to see definitive figures to prove the assertion. We’ll just wait and chip, chip away.

    For the time being I’ll just console myself with secterian crazed hatemongers getting apoplectic at the Irish and British National Flags hanging outside Belfast City Hall, the Irish language signs inside and Belfast City Council abolishing the toast to old Nelly Dean etc.

    🙂

  85. Please carry on, whilst anyone with any sense watches the free state crumbling away and thanks to Her Majesty and the UK for their wisdom in staying out of the doomed EURO.

    Not that bothered, we have the population presented with the Queen celebrating the Jubilee and so on.

    Real culture, in real time.

    The world is watching in awe.

    The Queen!

  86. I can never understand why the Brits stayed out of the Euro. What with a German Queen and a Greek Prince I thought they would have jumped at it.

  87. Ignorance is bliss…

    The Royal family are derived from ancestors, centuries ago, and unlike others we are a tolerant nation, exemplified by our multi cultural nation and commonwealth.

    The world still looks on in awe…

    Again;

    ‘The Queen!’

  88. LO.
    You have to make allowances for the ‘progressive’ republicans who post on this site.
    The likes of McMahon love to belittle Her Majesty and her family, regularly referring them as German/Greek/Immigrants (delete depending on what racist rant they are on). I pity any man without a family line back to the Gaels if the bigot gets his dream of a 32 county socialist republic. He, and his criminal pals would never accept them as Irishman.

    In his defence he has had a tough life. From his rants on here I have learnt that his ‘front garden’ (in a two up two down up the falls) was invaded by Paras, he wasn’t there for his brother, his cousin was a criminal who got caught – and as a result he covered himself in shit (couldnt do without his chicken supper though), and he loves Ireland so much he moved to Spain. He has a friend from West Belfast who used to post on here (a right old soak type) who said he supported Arsenal. The Arsenal were formed in a munitions factory in South London in 1886. I’ve always wondered why the Irish Republicans in the Arsenal support never questioned whether the bullets being made for their forefathers!

    Anyway I will leave you with one last thought for the night. 5 popes gone but the Queen lives on.

  89. “Are you that wanker Andrew Mc Cann in disguise?”

    Andrew had some redeeming features. Deluded Unionist has none.

  90. The Royal family are derived from ancestors, centuries ago

    Yes, nothing like a little bit of inbreeding to keep that blue blood blue.

    Wow! LU and “Will” two people long missing off ATW have suddenly appeared.

    Who’dve thunk?

  91. “Wow! LU and “Will” two people long missing off ATW have suddenly appeared.

    Who’dve thunk?”

    Thought I smelled a rancid meat puppet.

  92. Matt, I am staggered by your erudite posting, but sorry to disappoint you, I am not Mr McCann.
    Paul, the linage of the Royal Family would I suggest be a lot better than many of ours, including yourself and the obvious pedigree in west Belfast. 😉

    Enter Bastard, would you like it rare, medium or well done?

    I am back as I am on holidays and will be here to hold the bitter nationalists to account and expose their intolerance at every turn.

    Suffer on …

  93. LU,

    Enjoy your holiday. At least you bring a little light relief to ATW. We’ve had a surfeit of American non-politics of late.

  94. I want to speak with my lawyer!

    Someone has been polite to me, it must be a conspiracy!

  95. LOL

  96. The linage of the Royal Family would I suggest be a lot better than many of ours.

    Of course you would suggest that, I wouldn’t expect you to suggest anything else, but then again you’d just be talking servile bollox.

  97. The Royal family are derived from ancestors

    This cannot be refuted.

  98. There just derived from less ancestors than the rest of us.

  99. LOL! I wish I’d thought of the two above 🙂

  100. And Seamus, you are derived from who exactly?

    Bitter, insipid ‘oirish’ with no identity, culture and with a huge chip on your shoulder, I would not be surprised if your ancestors were from England.

    Oh the irony!

    actually, you’re obviously from a muddy quagmire and still have the guttural grunt like so many of your ilk.

  101. Lordy Lordy all this sectarian bickering. It’s like a throwback to the beginning of ATW in those nostalgic pre peace process days 😉

  102. Where the hell you been?

  103. Colm!

    you slabberin’?

    good to see you are still lingering!

  104. I have been dealing with everything following my dad’s death but I am beginning to find time to dip into ATW now and again.

  105. Welcome back

  106. Colm,

    wasn’t aware of your circumstances.

    Please accept my sincere condolences and heartfelt sympathy.

  107. Bitter, insipid ‘oirish’ with no identity, culture and with a huge chip on your shoulder, I would not be surprised if your ancestors were from England.”

    Well in part I am descended from people with no identity, culture and people with a huge chop on their shoulders because I am descended, in part, from Protestants.

    I do have ancestors in England, Scotland, Ireland, probably France etc etc.

  108. I am glad you don’t have a ‘chop’ on your shoulder, as that would incur attacks from rabid fenians on every day except for Fridays…

  109. Thanks LU, much appreciated.